Sigh.... folks, you are just giving ammunition to those who are restricting our "fair use" rights. So... please reply IF you can honestly say that all of your rips and reencodings are of purchased media and are only used for your own viewing (yes, that means NOT shared among your family... that is, no multiple copies of rips on multiple devices for different people).
*waves to theendlessnow*
I suspect there are a surprising number of us amongst the Slashdot readership who fit that category. Years ago we got tired of, at best, being ignored and at worst being modded down for saying anything like what you just said. So now we just stay away from stories like this one. Personally I just learned that this wasn't a site to support anything other than the "music wants to be free" belief. And that's just fine. There are other topics that turn up here on Slashdot where I actually do feel like a welcome part of the discussion. This topic just isn't one of them.
Try looking through the 3 categories of options here. In particular, in the last category (just listed as "Power Supplies") check into the PicoPSU units. Regardless, be aware that pretty much all of those small-scale power supply units require an external AC power adapter, but that's not a big concession given how much more flexibility it gets you.
That's the Intel D201GLY. You might be better off with the D201GLY2. It's faster, fan-free, includes SATA, and it's roughly the same price. I think retailers are clearing stock of the original version right now, which is why the V2 board is a little harder to find. Do a search for it at www.google.com/products/ though (for example) and it'll turn up, again at roughly the same price as the earlier model.
If only it had a DVI output instead of that dinosaur analog VGA output -- and possibly a gigabit network controller -- and I'd really be sold.
I guess if we're going to imagine a trip down Unintended Consequences Alley, it's worth mentioning the hypercane. One of those would really suck. Still, even with global warming and a space-based microwave generator, hopefully they'd never be able to get a large enough patch of water up to circa 50 degrees Celsius. According to footnote #1 at that Wikipedia article, currently the warmest temperature reached in a large body of water on Earth is about 36 Celsius. I think you'd still need an asteroid impact for things to get really interesting.
That's good to know. Basically I pick up where your travels end (or vice versa). I ride Amtrak's regular train service (no Acela for us folks to the south) from Washington, DC to Raleigh, NC and back every few weeks. I don't know what it's like in the Northeast, but the route between DC and Raleigh is on tracks owned by CSX that Amtrak pays to use. Consequently they've got one more variable that can work against them. Five or six years ago when I started taking this route, delays were rampant and often hit 2 hours. Almost always it was due to CSX working on the tracks. I'm more the relaxed type though, so that never bothered me much. Besides, being on a train where you can get up any time you want and wander around, go to the cafe car, etc., makes a huge difference. A 2 hour delay on a plane would kill me. Anyway...
Within the past few months, something almost magical seems to have been happening -- the delays have started becoming fewer and shorter. One time this summer I even got to Raleigh 5 minutes early! It seems to be turning out that all those years of delays are finally starting to pay off -- CSX really does seem to have managed to upgrade the quality of their rails on that segment, and as a result, life is getting better for Amtrak and their passengers. Here's hoping this trend is for real and that it continues.
I know there are a lot of Slashdot readers in Northern Virginia, so here's my advice for anyone who needs to visit the Raleigh/Durham/RTP area at some point. If you want to give Amtrak a try, don't bother going into DC (Union Station). Instead, head to the King Street metro station on the Yellow & Blue Metro lines. The Amtrak station is on the other side of the tracks (just cross over via the underpass). Pay for the Business Class upgrade. It's typically an extra $21 and is worth ever dollar. It gets you a larger seat, more leg room, free coffee and soft drinks, and the most important thing of all -- a 120V AC power outlet. It's supposed to be about 5h 30m from the King Street station to Raleigh if everything is running on time. 6h +/- 15m is more common, but as I say, it seems to be getting better. You'll need to research your options at the NC end of things though. I have friends and family in the area, so someone always picks me up, so the best methods to reach a car rental place from the Raleigh (or Cary or Durham) Amtrak station isn't something I've looked into.
I think the best part of taking the train is the interesting people I meet. Just in the past few months I've found myself sitting next to a hot biology grad student from NC State, a psychic (that was an interesting ride!), and a judge from NYC. I don't know why -- maybe it's because all of us are taking a slower form of transit -- but I continue to find that the people I meet on the train are a lot more mellow and just generally interesting than the type of people I meet when I have to fly. It's just all-around less stressful, you know?
To me, no, everything does not seem to point to HD-DVD region codes (thanks for those links though). From that Amazon page, if you follow their "Read more about region encoding and how it may affect you here" link, you wind up at this page. As you can see, regular DVD and BluRay region coding is detailed, but there is no mention of such a thing for HD-DVD.
Furthermore, as you noted the other two links you provided are from last year, and refer to discussions that they were expecting to have this year about implementing region coding. Do you happen to have any information about whether those expected discussions have actually happened or not, and if so what the outcome of those "working groups" were?
I'll also point out that the relevant Wikipedia entry -- that fount of information that is never, ever wrong -- states that, "there is no Region Coding in the existing HD DVD specification, which means that titles from any country can be played in players in any other country." Alternatively, if you check out the Wikipedia article on BluRay (which comes complete with a pretty map), you can see that the opposite is true.
I'm sorry but the very concept of region coding bothers me so much that, until I see clear evidence that the same thing is going to be implemented with HD-DVD some day, HD-DVD easily wins over BluRay. Higher capacity be damned. I'll take at least some level of consumer-oriented freedom over that any day, thanks.
I'm glad someone's making a revitalizing effort on the part of HD-DVD, even if it means handing out buckets of cash. My biggest reason for supporting HDDVD over BluRay (other than a long-time dislike for Sony) is that HDDVD does not have any form of region coding, while BluRay does. I haven't seen that point raised here on Slashdot before, so I'm at the point of wondering if A) it's even correct, and B) if I'm really the only one who cares.
We've seen big companies embrace globalization when convenient many times before, and then immediately turn around and implement artificial barriers so that consumers can't take advantage of that same global market (the stories here on Slashdot a few years ago about textbook manufacturers come to mind, where they would sell English versions of their textbooks in foreign countries at hugely discounted prices, and then fight over efforts of other companies and individuals to make those same books available back to customers in the USA).
Region coding ought to be universally despised. So far as I know, with HD-DVD I don't have to worry about it. But Sony, showing their true stripes once again, embraced it with BluRay.
It is probably somewhat safe to conclude that despite the vast areas of the US with very-very low population density most of the US residents live in rather populous cities/areas.
Oh yes, certainly. And that's what those maps show too. But then I looked at that global population distribution map, and it became clear that, despite the fact that there are several areas in the USA that hold a high percentage of the USA's total population, the density in those areas still rarely competes with the density you find in most of Europe or Japan. So looking at it from a perspective of global comparison, I really would expect the cost to be higher to service X number of people in the USA, versus X number of people in Europe. In other words, it's cheaper to provide broadband access to a given number of people in Europe or Japan than it is here in the USA.
At least, I think it is, based on this rather non-scientific quick look at a few maps.:-)
At first I thought this easily backed up my suspicion that, as you put it, the "spread out America" excuse doesn't work so well.
But then I checked out a global map of population distribution and now, after all this effort, I'm firmly back in the "not sure" category. Bring up the full-size map and compare Europe and Japan with the USA. Perhaps for New York, New Jersey, much of Florida and California there's not much excuse. Anywhere else in the USA and it's not so clear to me.
No. As I have accused others, I spend my days reading and posting to Slashdot.;-)
I know what you're saying, and I know that in this case it may as well be a giant chasm between preference and reality... but we're all dreaming here anyway, right? Why not set the bar higher?:-)
Oh and the formation of silt does not necessarily include water. Any form of mechanical weathering is sufficient to produce material small-grained enough to categorized as silt.
Side note: I was thinking the day I wrote my original post that Mars is like an amusement park for the mind.:-) It is so familiar and easily knowable in some ways, and yet IT IS A VERY ALIEN WORLD in other ways. The former, combined with human nature, make it easy for many to miss the latter. MobyDisk touched on that point nicely.
But you've raised some of the other things I was thinking about after my original post.
I think the main points to remember are:
1) It's extremely dry on the surface of Mars. Dry even in the standard Earth definition: no precipitation (just some condensation forming frost at the poles).
2) The surface gravity is about 1/3rd that of Earth's.
3) The atmospheric pressure is about 1/100th that of Earth's, at the lowest(!) elevations.
Point #3 is really going over the heads of a lot of people here on Slashdot (and I'm sure elsewhere). Many don't seem to have even a basic grasp of what sublimation is.
I wonder about the intense dryness, coupled with weaker gravity exerting an effect on the surface material from below, and the insanely weaker atmospheric pressure pressing down from above. Think about that: no water to bind material together with the exotic bonds and tricks that liquid water molecules can pull off. And less of a force pulling downwards in surface materials. And far, far less force being pressed down on the surface materials. I suspect that, despite being chemically identical to materials found here on Earth, the way that those surface materials behave must involve a FASCINATING degree of freedom that we NEVER see here on Earth. Surely a major factor is static! There are winds blowing around. There's intense UV radiation bombarding different patches of silts and sands with different chemical make-ups. Surely there is some electron exchange going on there. I think that's why so many of those pictures showing such clear rover tracks look like mud to us humans. It's not due to water -- it's due to static electricity! I think about dry powdered toner from a laser printer cartridge, and how crazily it's affected by static. Sure, here on Earth it takes a real static sensitive material like styrene powder to exhibit strange clumping effects. But on Mars where, again, gravity and atmospheric pressure are weaker and there is so little water around, surely a whole crazy, insane range of materials start becoming affected by static electricity! That thought just blows my mind. And then I'm sure there are a variety of transient chemical bonds that have freedoms on Mars they'd never have here on Earth. And yes, going back to my original musings about particle sizes, I'm sure that there are some really fascinating things that start to happen simply because there is so much material formed from such small particles.
Phew. Like I said: Mars is an amusement park for the mind! So Earthlike, and yet so NOT! It's so easy to fall into the trap of thinking, "it's just like on Earth!" Honestly, thinking about all this stuff is almost enough to make me go back to a degree in soil sciences or geophysics!
I hope more people around here start to realize something: even without liquid water on the Martian surface, that planet is still worth exploring. I wish I could go someday, but I'm sure that'll never happen.
It's quite clear that soil surfaces on Mars must regularly be exposed to liquid water. Why? Because we've already pretty much seen it: the Viking lander saw ground frost in its images, and at temperatures and pressures on Mars, that frost can turn liquid.
1. How do you go from ground frost to liquid water? You just say "we've already pretty much seen it." Pretty much? Well if we're on that turf, I'm pretty much sure that when I learned about Mars, we had a brief refresher on the process of sublimation before we waded into the polar ice caps. (Hint: ice is converted to water vapor directly. No liquid phase is needed... or even possible in the case of Mars.) Which leads me to my next question...
2. You write, "at the temperatures and pressures on Mars, that frost can turn liquid." This is the first I've ever heard anyone say that, anywhere. Where's a good corroborating source for that statement because really, if it's true, congratulations on completely turning my position around. I'd be the first one back here agreeing with you.
Forgive me for being skeptical, but I don't think any reputable source for such a statement exists. The only person I can find online saying such a thing is the same Levin guy who, A) was quoted in the New Scientist article (which has pretty well skewered by a horde of people here on Slashdot and elsewhere, and B) who has been pretty well skewered himself here and elsewhere.
Sorry... but look on the bright side. As I've posted here, I'm still optimistic that there's a possibility of liquid water underground. Just not on the surface. Anything that might break through to the surface will immediately freeze and sublimate (unless it's at the poles, where it might be cold enough to just hang around as ice).
Yeah, or while we're on this flight of fancy, it might also be aerosol cheese!
Look, I'm completely open to the possibility that there is liquid water somewhere underground on Mars. But not on the surface! It's too cold, and the atmospheric pressure isn't sufficient for liquid water to stick around. Ice, yes. Water vapor, yes (although with little density). But liquid water, no. Sorry.
If there really is a greater push to find water on Mars -- and not just evidence of its presence in the past -- why not concentrate on the recent evidence that's been found showing cave entrances in a variety of places on the Martian surface?
All nice and spruced up in Photoshop. Yes, very persuasive.
Others who have posted to this story have done a far better job than I to illustrate how ridiculous these claims are. How about following the link to the original image that someone else posted? Doesn't look so much like water when it hasn't been cropped, pulled from its original context, Photoshopped, and false-colorized to death, does it? And notice too... it's the side of a cliff. Of course, that's no problem if you don't believe that water is affected by gravity. Then again, apparently there are plenty of Slashdot readers who believe that the extreme cold and minimal atmospheric pressure have no impact on the viability of liquid water, so why would they think that gravity could affect it either?
Thanks for trying to clarify. Not that it really matters now, as most of the thread's been modded down. I'm not sure why either... this was a continuation on someone's valid comment about something specifically mentioned in the article: graffiti. I guess at least one person with mod points is feeling protective of graffiti today. Anyway, to me, as with the initial commenter, graffiti done without permission is a form of vandalism. I don't understand how anyone can claim otherwise, which is what I thought QG was trying to do...
Am I really the only one here who actually played in the dirt as a kid?
Originally an outwash plain during the final ablation phase of a glacier, the 5+ wild acres I grew up on as a kid had a variety of clay, soil, and silt types. This "OMG, there's water on Mars!" reaction has come up at least once before here on Slashdot, after someone posted a link to a photograph that showed dark plumes spilling down a small incline. Some of the reactions here depressed me back then too. Have so many people really become so disconnected from the earth that they can't recognize ultra-fine silt when they see it?
Ok, so fine... let's assume you don't have first hand experience with how liquid-like dry silt can be. Just today I read an article on Nasa's site that got me thinking about this topic. It's about how one of the rovers has again had its solar panels cleaned off by wind. If Martian winds can pull that trick off, clearly wind erosion must be ongoing on Mars, and has been going on for what, BILLIONS of years? Now...
without any liquid water...
without any biological activity...
without any volcanic activity...
...but with that wind erosion, what would be the lowest limit for particle size on the Martian surface?
Let me put this another way: there has been an erosional force running on that planet for a billion plus years, to this day, and no force (at least on the surface) is present to conglomerate or cement those particles back together. This, to me, means that all surface particles must be being eroded down to some lower limit in silt particle size. I bet there's all kinds of weird and wonderful physics going on down at that level, but I'm digressing.
Folks, as apparently the only person here on Slashdot who's ever played with dry silt, I have some sad news for you: I would be shocked if there weren't patches around that didn't look a heck of a lot like liquid.
Here's another story to contemplate: do you remember when one of the Mars rover's got stuck? The NASA engineers went off to the hardware store to recreate the soil conditions, and picked up things like dry cement powder and diatomaceous earth. And you have to remember that Mars' gravity is what, 1/3 that of Earths? Come on kids... it's nice to dream and all, but what we're dealing with here -- again, at least on the surface -- is one very dry surface that has a heck of a lot of ultra-fine silt lying around in a low gravity environment.
Our goal is a significant return on investment - whether or not - the Space Elevator is ultimately successful. We do this by concentrating on 2 things: generating profits through spin-off technologies, and learning what we need to learn, in order to achieve our long-term goals.
The Four Pillars dictate how the rest of the world interacts with us; while the Five-C's are examples of how we interact with the world. Collectively these are referred to as The Nine and are used when considering the action matrix for building our elevator to space."
Four Pillars? Five Cs? The Nine?
Who are these kids, and how did they get access to enough money in the first place that now some government entity finds them worth investigating?
Looking through page after page of their gallery section, I ask myself what photograph after photograph of empty rooms and open spaces across a very large piece of real estate says about how they're handling money. Take a look through yourself. (Try not to stumble over the poor grammar and poorly written comments.)
Honestly... if you had a fledgling company focusing on an extremely fledging idea, would you put your money into renting or buying buildings like that? Or would you perhaps start of with something smaller, like Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard?
But whatever... I just wish *I* had an action matrix!
Nice examples! However, I couldn't help but notice that there is a typographical error in the first example you posted a link for. I believe the word you wanted was "Antarctica" but the graph instead shows "Antartica" (it's missing a "c").
And now back to your regularly scheduled program...
Slashdot Mirror
Sigh.... folks, you are just giving ammunition to those who are restricting our "fair use" rights. So... please reply IF you can honestly say that all of your rips and reencodings are of purchased media and are only used for your own viewing (yes, that means NOT shared among your family... that is, no multiple copies of rips on multiple devices for different people).
*waves to theendlessnow*
I suspect there are a surprising number of us amongst the Slashdot readership who fit that category. Years ago we got tired of, at best, being ignored and at worst being modded down for saying anything like what you just said. So now we just stay away from stories like this one. Personally I just learned that this wasn't a site to support anything other than the "music wants to be free" belief. And that's just fine. There are other topics that turn up here on Slashdot where I actually do feel like a welcome part of the discussion. This topic just isn't one of them.
Try looking through the 3 categories of options here. In particular, in the last category (just listed as "Power Supplies") check into the PicoPSU units. Regardless, be aware that pretty much all of those small-scale power supply units require an external AC power adapter, but that's not a big concession given how much more flexibility it gets you.
That's the Intel D201GLY. You might be better off with the D201GLY2. It's faster, fan-free, includes SATA, and it's roughly the same price. I think retailers are clearing stock of the original version right now, which is why the V2 board is a little harder to find. Do a search for it at www.google.com/products/ though (for example) and it'll turn up, again at roughly the same price as the earlier model.
If only it had a DVI output instead of that dinosaur analog VGA output -- and possibly a gigabit network controller -- and I'd really be sold.
I guess if we're going to imagine a trip down Unintended Consequences Alley, it's worth mentioning the hypercane. One of those would really suck. Still, even with global warming and a space-based microwave generator, hopefully they'd never be able to get a large enough patch of water up to circa 50 degrees Celsius. According to footnote #1 at that Wikipedia article, currently the warmest temperature reached in a large body of water on Earth is about 36 Celsius. I think you'd still need an asteroid impact for things to get really interesting.
That's good to know. Basically I pick up where your travels end (or vice versa). I ride Amtrak's regular train service (no Acela for us folks to the south) from Washington, DC to Raleigh, NC and back every few weeks. I don't know what it's like in the Northeast, but the route between DC and Raleigh is on tracks owned by CSX that Amtrak pays to use. Consequently they've got one more variable that can work against them. Five or six years ago when I started taking this route, delays were rampant and often hit 2 hours. Almost always it was due to CSX working on the tracks. I'm more the relaxed type though, so that never bothered me much. Besides, being on a train where you can get up any time you want and wander around, go to the cafe car, etc., makes a huge difference. A 2 hour delay on a plane would kill me. Anyway...
Within the past few months, something almost magical seems to have been happening -- the delays have started becoming fewer and shorter. One time this summer I even got to Raleigh 5 minutes early! It seems to be turning out that all those years of delays are finally starting to pay off -- CSX really does seem to have managed to upgrade the quality of their rails on that segment, and as a result, life is getting better for Amtrak and their passengers. Here's hoping this trend is for real and that it continues.
I know there are a lot of Slashdot readers in Northern Virginia, so here's my advice for anyone who needs to visit the Raleigh/Durham/RTP area at some point. If you want to give Amtrak a try, don't bother going into DC (Union Station). Instead, head to the King Street metro station on the Yellow & Blue Metro lines. The Amtrak station is on the other side of the tracks (just cross over via the underpass). Pay for the Business Class upgrade. It's typically an extra $21 and is worth ever dollar. It gets you a larger seat, more leg room, free coffee and soft drinks, and the most important thing of all -- a 120V AC power outlet. It's supposed to be about 5h 30m from the King Street station to Raleigh if everything is running on time. 6h +/- 15m is more common, but as I say, it seems to be getting better. You'll need to research your options at the NC end of things though. I have friends and family in the area, so someone always picks me up, so the best methods to reach a car rental place from the Raleigh (or Cary or Durham) Amtrak station isn't something I've looked into.
I think the best part of taking the train is the interesting people I meet. Just in the past few months I've found myself sitting next to a hot biology grad student from NC State, a psychic (that was an interesting ride!), and a judge from NYC. I don't know why -- maybe it's because all of us are taking a slower form of transit -- but I continue to find that the people I meet on the train are a lot more mellow and just generally interesting than the type of people I meet when I have to fly. It's just all-around less stressful, you know?
Everything seems to point to HDDVD region codes:
To me, no, everything does not seem to point to HD-DVD region codes (thanks for those links though). From that Amazon page, if you follow their "Read more about region encoding and how it may affect you here" link, you wind up at this page. As you can see, regular DVD and BluRay region coding is detailed, but there is no mention of such a thing for HD-DVD.
Furthermore, as you noted the other two links you provided are from last year, and refer to discussions that they were expecting to have this year about implementing region coding. Do you happen to have any information about whether those expected discussions have actually happened or not, and if so what the outcome of those "working groups" were?
I'll also point out that the relevant Wikipedia entry -- that fount of information that is never, ever wrong -- states that, "there is no Region Coding in the existing HD DVD specification, which means that titles from any country can be played in players in any other country." Alternatively, if you check out the Wikipedia article on BluRay (which comes complete with a pretty map), you can see that the opposite is true.
I'm sorry but the very concept of region coding bothers me so much that, until I see clear evidence that the same thing is going to be implemented with HD-DVD some day, HD-DVD easily wins over BluRay. Higher capacity be damned. I'll take at least some level of consumer-oriented freedom over that any day, thanks.
I'm glad someone's making a revitalizing effort on the part of HD-DVD, even if it means handing out buckets of cash. My biggest reason for supporting HDDVD over BluRay (other than a long-time dislike for Sony) is that HDDVD does not have any form of region coding, while BluRay does. I haven't seen that point raised here on Slashdot before, so I'm at the point of wondering if A) it's even correct, and B) if I'm really the only one who cares.
We've seen big companies embrace globalization when convenient many times before, and then immediately turn around and implement artificial barriers so that consumers can't take advantage of that same global market (the stories here on Slashdot a few years ago about textbook manufacturers come to mind, where they would sell English versions of their textbooks in foreign countries at hugely discounted prices, and then fight over efforts of other companies and individuals to make those same books available back to customers in the USA).
Region coding ought to be universally despised. So far as I know, with HD-DVD I don't have to worry about it. But Sony, showing their true stripes once again, embraced it with BluRay.
If you liked that headline, you should check out this link (Google cache because I think the original site now requires registration).
Two of my favorites:
"Day gives daughters 1st-hand job experience"
"Shooting spree spreads Christmas bliss"
But the headlines are only part of the hilarity. Some of the stories posted on that page are an absolute riot.
It is probably somewhat safe to conclude that despite the vast areas of the US with very-very low population density most of the US residents live in rather populous cities/areas.
:-)
Oh yes, certainly. And that's what those maps show too. But then I looked at that global population distribution map, and it became clear that, despite the fact that there are several areas in the USA that hold a high percentage of the USA's total population, the density in those areas still rarely competes with the density you find in most of Europe or Japan. So looking at it from a perspective of global comparison, I really would expect the cost to be higher to service X number of people in the USA, versus X number of people in Europe. In other words, it's cheaper to provide broadband access to a given number of people in Europe or Japan than it is here in the USA.
At least, I think it is, based on this rather non-scientific quick look at a few maps.
I wondered about that too. To make a guess about the answer, I had to find some maps showing US population density. Here's one (in PDF format) from the US government (I wish it had the year). Here's one from a .edu for 1990 levels. And here's one from Time magazine done in a unique fashion.
At first I thought this easily backed up my suspicion that, as you put it, the "spread out America" excuse doesn't work so well.
But then I checked out a global map of population distribution and now, after all this effort, I'm firmly back in the "not sure" category. Bring up the full-size map and compare Europe and Japan with the USA. Perhaps for New York, New Jersey, much of Florida and California there's not much excuse. Anywhere else in the USA and it's not so clear to me.
But what if you have a pacemaker, and you're really, really short?
Let me guess, you work in academia too?
;-)
... but we're all dreaming here anyway, right? Why not set the bar higher? :-)
No. As I have accused others, I spend my days reading and posting to Slashdot.
I know what you're saying, and I know that in this case it may as well be a giant chasm between preference and reality
In other words, we need universal respect and tolerance first, and then privacy can disappear.
I guess I'm wondering why you think anonymity is the only (or best) way to achieve freedom from "fear of repercussion."
You'd prefer to hide under a rock in order to speak your mind freely?
Oh and the formation of silt does not necessarily include water. Any form of mechanical weathering is sufficient to produce material small-grained enough to categorized as silt.
You read my mind.
:-) It is so familiar and easily knowable in some ways, and yet IT IS A VERY ALIEN WORLD in other ways. The former, combined with human nature, make it easy for many to miss the latter. MobyDisk touched on that point nicely.
Side note: I was thinking the day I wrote my original post that Mars is like an amusement park for the mind.
But you've raised some of the other things I was thinking about after my original post.
I think the main points to remember are:
1) It's extremely dry on the surface of Mars. Dry even in the standard Earth definition: no precipitation (just some condensation forming frost at the poles).
2) The surface gravity is about 1/3rd that of Earth's.
3) The atmospheric pressure is about 1/100th that of Earth's, at the lowest(!) elevations.
Point #3 is really going over the heads of a lot of people here on Slashdot (and I'm sure elsewhere). Many don't seem to have even a basic grasp of what sublimation is.
I wonder about the intense dryness, coupled with weaker gravity exerting an effect on the surface material from below, and the insanely weaker atmospheric pressure pressing down from above. Think about that: no water to bind material together with the exotic bonds and tricks that liquid water molecules can pull off. And less of a force pulling downwards in surface materials. And far, far less force being pressed down on the surface materials. I suspect that, despite being chemically identical to materials found here on Earth, the way that those surface materials behave must involve a FASCINATING degree of freedom that we NEVER see here on Earth. Surely a major factor is static! There are winds blowing around. There's intense UV radiation bombarding different patches of silts and sands with different chemical make-ups. Surely there is some electron exchange going on there. I think that's why so many of those pictures showing such clear rover tracks look like mud to us humans. It's not due to water -- it's due to static electricity! I think about dry powdered toner from a laser printer cartridge, and how crazily it's affected by static. Sure, here on Earth it takes a real static sensitive material like styrene powder to exhibit strange clumping effects. But on Mars where, again, gravity and atmospheric pressure are weaker and there is so little water around, surely a whole crazy, insane range of materials start becoming affected by static electricity! That thought just blows my mind. And then I'm sure there are a variety of transient chemical bonds that have freedoms on Mars they'd never have here on Earth. And yes, going back to my original musings about particle sizes, I'm sure that there are some really fascinating things that start to happen simply because there is so much material formed from such small particles.
Phew. Like I said: Mars is an amusement park for the mind! So Earthlike, and yet so NOT! It's so easy to fall into the trap of thinking, "it's just like on Earth!" Honestly, thinking about all this stuff is almost enough to make me go back to a degree in soil sciences or geophysics!
I hope more people around here start to realize something: even without liquid water on the Martian surface, that planet is still worth exploring. I wish I could go someday, but I'm sure that'll never happen.
I've bolded a couple of areas in a quote:
... or even possible in the case of Mars.) Which leads me to my next question...
... but look on the bright side. As I've posted here, I'm still optimistic that there's a possibility of liquid water underground. Just not on the surface. Anything that might break through to the surface will immediately freeze and sublimate (unless it's at the poles, where it might be cold enough to just hang around as ice).
It's quite clear that soil surfaces on Mars must regularly be exposed to liquid water. Why? Because we've already pretty much seen it: the Viking lander saw ground frost in its images, and at temperatures and pressures on Mars, that frost can turn liquid.
1. How do you go from ground frost to liquid water? You just say "we've already pretty much seen it." Pretty much? Well if we're on that turf, I'm pretty much sure that when I learned about Mars, we had a brief refresher on the process of sublimation before we waded into the polar ice caps. (Hint: ice is converted to water vapor directly. No liquid phase is needed
2. You write, "at the temperatures and pressures on Mars, that frost can turn liquid." This is the first I've ever heard anyone say that, anywhere. Where's a good corroborating source for that statement because really, if it's true, congratulations on completely turning my position around. I'd be the first one back here agreeing with you.
Forgive me for being skeptical, but I don't think any reputable source for such a statement exists. The only person I can find online saying such a thing is the same Levin guy who, A) was quoted in the New Scientist article (which has pretty well skewered by a horde of people here on Slashdot and elsewhere, and B) who has been pretty well skewered himself here and elsewhere.
Sorry
What do you mean opaqueness? Seriously, I'm not trying to be difficult here. From Princeton's WordNet:
opaque: not transmitting or reflecting light or radiant energy; impenetrable to sight ("opaque windows of the jail"; "opaque to X-rays")
The way you write that question, it comes across to me as though you think that silt is less opaque than water! What do you mean exactly?
Yeah, or while we're on this flight of fancy, it might also be aerosol cheese!
Look, I'm completely open to the possibility that there is liquid water somewhere underground on Mars. But not on the surface! It's too cold, and the atmospheric pressure isn't sufficient for liquid water to stick around. Ice, yes. Water vapor, yes (although with little density). But liquid water, no. Sorry.
If there really is a greater push to find water on Mars -- and not just evidence of its presence in the past -- why not concentrate on the recent evidence that's been found showing cave entrances in a variety of places on the Martian surface?
All nice and spruced up in Photoshop. Yes, very persuasive.
... it's the side of a cliff. Of course, that's no problem if you don't believe that water is affected by gravity. Then again, apparently there are plenty of Slashdot readers who believe that the extreme cold and minimal atmospheric pressure have no impact on the viability of liquid water, so why would they think that gravity could affect it either?
Others who have posted to this story have done a far better job than I to illustrate how ridiculous these claims are. How about following the link to the original image that someone else posted? Doesn't look so much like water when it hasn't been cropped, pulled from its original context, Photoshopped, and false-colorized to death, does it? And notice too
Thanks for trying to clarify. Not that it really matters now, as most of the thread's been modded down. I'm not sure why either ... this was a continuation on someone's valid comment about something specifically mentioned in the article: graffiti. I guess at least one person with mod points is feeling protective of graffiti today. Anyway, to me, as with the initial commenter, graffiti done without permission is a form of vandalism. I don't understand how anyone can claim otherwise, which is what I thought QG was trying to do...
when you build a wall facing a public place, it's not completely your wall anymore. It's a public wall.
So let me get this straight: the next time you park your car on a public street, you're ok with me coming along and spray-painting it?
Am I really the only one here who actually played in the dirt as a kid?
... let's assume you don't have first hand experience with how liquid-like dry silt can be. Just today I read an article on Nasa's site that got me thinking about this topic. It's about how one of the rovers has again had its solar panels cleaned off by wind. If Martian winds can pull that trick off, clearly wind erosion must be ongoing on Mars, and has been going on for what, BILLIONS of years? Now...
...but with that wind erosion, what would be the lowest limit for particle size on the Martian surface?
... it's nice to dream and all, but what we're dealing with here -- again, at least on the surface -- is one very dry surface that has a heck of a lot of ultra-fine silt lying around in a low gravity environment.
Originally an outwash plain during the final ablation phase of a glacier, the 5+ wild acres I grew up on as a kid had a variety of clay, soil, and silt types. This "OMG, there's water on Mars!" reaction has come up at least once before here on Slashdot, after someone posted a link to a photograph that showed dark plumes spilling down a small incline. Some of the reactions here depressed me back then too. Have so many people really become so disconnected from the earth that they can't recognize ultra-fine silt when they see it?
Ok, so fine
without any liquid water...
without any biological activity...
without any volcanic activity...
Let me put this another way: there has been an erosional force running on that planet for a billion plus years, to this day, and no force (at least on the surface) is present to conglomerate or cement those particles back together. This, to me, means that all surface particles must be being eroded down to some lower limit in silt particle size. I bet there's all kinds of weird and wonderful physics going on down at that level, but I'm digressing.
Folks, as apparently the only person here on Slashdot who's ever played with dry silt, I have some sad news for you: I would be shocked if there weren't patches around that didn't look a heck of a lot like liquid.
Here's another story to contemplate: do you remember when one of the Mars rover's got stuck? The NASA engineers went off to the hardware store to recreate the soil conditions, and picked up things like dry cement powder and diatomaceous earth. And you have to remember that Mars' gravity is what, 1/3 that of Earths? Come on kids
Mars: where a dry surface flows like water.
I can just imagine the PHB at Dilbert's cube announcing that he's come up with plans for a space elevator.
... if you had a fledgling company focusing on an extremely fledging idea, would you put your money into renting or buying buildings like that? Or would you perhaps start of with something smaller, like Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard?
... I just wish *I* had an action matrix!
From their Wiki page:
Our goal is a significant return on investment - whether or not - the Space Elevator is ultimately successful. We do this by concentrating on 2 things: generating profits through spin-off technologies, and learning what we need to learn, in order to achieve our long-term goals.
The Four Pillars dictate how the rest of the world interacts with us; while the Five-C's are examples of how we interact with the world. Collectively these are referred to as The Nine and are used when considering the action matrix for building our elevator to space."
Four Pillars? Five Cs? The Nine?
Who are these kids, and how did they get access to enough money in the first place that now some government entity finds them worth investigating?
Looking through page after page of their gallery section, I ask myself what photograph after photograph of empty rooms and open spaces across a very large piece of real estate says about how they're handling money. Take a look through yourself. (Try not to stumble over the poor grammar and poorly written comments.)
Honestly
But whatever
Like a super-gigantic tin-foil hat
Perhaps you meant a giant tin-foil teepee?
Nice examples! However, I couldn't help but notice that there is a typographical error in the first example you posted a link for. I believe the word you wanted was "Antarctica" but the graph instead shows "Antartica" (it's missing a "c").
And now back to your regularly scheduled program...