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First Nations Want Cellphone Revenue
Peacenik45 writes "The CBC is reporting that First Nations in Manitoba want compensation for every cell phone signal that passes through their land because it violates their airspace. The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs recently resolved to negotiate revenue sharing with Manitoba Telecom Services. Ovide Mercredi of the Grand Rapids First Nations says "When it comes to using airspace, it's like using our water and simply because there's no precedent doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do." This move may inspire First Nations in other provinces to follow suit."
I want a precedent set. Then I will also sue for any cell phone waves passing over my private property. They are not the only ones with the "get everything and do nothing" attitude.
So, pray, tell us, what resource belonging to First Nations is being consumed, so that you have less of it the signal has passed through? I will take one silver coin, and drop it on the ground, and you may comfort yourself with the sound of the money.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Honestly, it is stupid moves like this that has kept natives mostly poor and depressed. What are they going to do about it? Build a wall to block it?
Then they should pay for any cell phone signal originating from their territory, too.
And they should be charged for any rain water that evaporated from somewhere else.
Let's total up these charges...wow, looks like they come out even!
If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
Indian nations are a farcical anachronism who have greatly outlived their usefulness. The US and CA govs should just stop recognizing them. It's time to move out of the stone age people.
Seems like a very similar argument could be made against laws that prohibit decrypting signals that pass through one's property
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
The cellphone companies should respond by treating any call that originates in a First Nations area as a "foreign" call wishing to access their network, and charge the appropriate fees and roaming charges.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
Before Europeans came to North America, the native people would use every part of a broadcast signal, instead of wasting it like we do nowadays. Apparently they did the same thing with bison.
Now you know!
So, how about a seat tax on every airliner that passes over? A transit tax for every satellite that crosses their land? Hell, how about an "image" tax for every person who catches a glimpse of their land?
And the worms ate into his brain.
Sure, not a problem...
Oh, did we mention that costs for OUR electricity, gasoline, wood, metal, use of our roads, telephone lines, groceries, banking services, medical services, fire services, and police services for natives on band land have doubled in price?
You give an inch and they try to take a foot, this will never stop until we put a stop to it. They get all the benefits of regular tax payers, without paying the taxes, PLUS they want additional perks.
Even the majority of the my native friends think it is getting ridiculous, they live on some of the richest band land in the country and of course they don't see a dime from all that income, only the crazy rich band leader in the massive mansion(s) on the top of the hill see that.
Give me a break!
While they're at it, do they intend to sue DirecTV, XM/Sirius and oh yeah, shortwave radio operators for it too?
What? You mean a judge wouldn't even hear the case?
Sue the sky for raining on your land.
Sue the sun for radiating light to your land.
Sue the wind for distributing polluted air to your land
Sue EVERYTHING that creates sound waves that travel onto your property!
These days, all people want to do is take other people's money
All your 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 are belong to us
Solution: build giant Faraday cages around their land. No cellphone signal inside, no problem.
"Live as if you'll die tomorrow." Ridiculous. You could die later today.
To quote the above, the "do nothing and get everything" attitude that afflicts the Natives is born and bred on the reserves and brought about through a lifetime of having a silver spoon in their mouth. I am not racist. I am not against Natives. I do however have a problem with the current land claims they are proposing, as well as the terrorist antics that their Grand Chief has been condoning of late. At what point do we cut them off and say "Sorry, you've been paid back, thats enough, now get a real job and maintain your culture like everyone else, without the support of the government".
It really burns my ass to know that the 45% or so tax that comes off my cheque every week goes in a large majority directly to them, which they then turn around and use in a facetious manner like this lawsuit, or other such things. For a culture that has every advantage and is still in the "shitter" so to speak, maybe the problem is not a lack of money or resources or support, but rather too much.
being single, white, male and in my mid twenties, I can't even speak out, I have no recourse, and then hearing this, its absolutely NUTS.
"You say self-important egomaniac like its a bad thing?!?"
Damn did I doze off again?
I want revenue sharing for all cell-phone signals that go through my body. WiFi too. Oh, and walktie talkies. And ham radios, AM, FM, and XM. You know what, since it's all just EM waves anyway, I also want revenue for each ray of light that bounces off me and onto anything else. Got a microwave oven? Pay up.
Manitoba Tel should indicate they've re-worked their network to go around First Nations areas and then indicate that if they want compensation, to identify what signals are going through their land and prove it. This is really retarded.
Mark
Just make sure that any cell phone calls that originate within their land get appropiately taxed too. And there better be plenty of paperwork made available to show exactly how much originates within their borders, including roaming calls.
Also, any wind and rain that goes through the land should also be taxed. These are important commodities too. Rain waters crops, and wind generates power using those windmills. They better pay taxes on any rain landing on their land, and any wind passing through, that did not originate there.
And animals. If deer, fish, birds, etc. cross the border, then they need to collect, or pay taxes on each and every one of them, depending on if they are entering, or leaving. We can't have these valuable food animals roaming around untaxed.
Also insects. Many cultures eat insects, so these should be tracked individually, too. Bees crossing over and polinating crops are providing a valuable service.
Then there are seeds, pollen, spores, etc. blowing across. Better tax them too.
I think a couple million people spaced around the border should be able to track everything taxable. I'm sure the taxes earned by the First Nation should be sufficient to cover their payroll.
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
oh, canada!
that explains it
not enough fat old people to milk for pension checks in the tundra, eh?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
1. no compensation ensues;
2. First Nations installs signal blockers;
3. the signals (using a feature that is inherent in this mode of communication) use neighbouring air to route around First Nations' air;
4. First Nations realise how stupid the whole exercise is
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
Allow me to state that I am fully in favor of the Native American Nations taking advantage of their status and sucking money away from the surrounding governments. They've had a pretty shitty 500 years, and if they want to take money from dumb white folk at casinos, and let those same folk dodge cigarette taxes, more power to them.
That being said, WTF? They are asserting a "property right" that has been rejected via common, statutory, and international law time and time again. A nation can control physical objects that enter their airspace, but not energy. It's like RFA/Radio Marti - nations may not like broadcasting radio waves into their territory, but there isn't dick-all they can do about it except bitch and moan and try to jam it. But in this case, jamming would be a cure worse than the cause - their own members would lose the same access.
I mean, are they serious?
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
Big chief no signal. You don't want coverage? No problem! Odds they sue to get coverage if they get cut off?
6. NO profit.
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
It is no mistake that this is coming out of autonomous territories where federal laws appropriating radio frequencies for specific uses have little or questionable jurisdiction. Whether or not you personally believe they are entitled to, these groups are perfectly capable of jamming radio transmissions used by others crossing over their sovereign territory, so they do have de facto control over them (by virtue of being able to disallow them). They own the territory and have the potential to fulfill this anarcho-capitalist's wet dream of a land where there are no governmental controls over frequency allotment.
Considering the flavor of politics around here, I'm surprised I'm not seeing more posts in support of these First Nations' actions.
No wonder the white man had such an easy time taking Indians' land. They're complete morons! This is the dumbest thing I have heard in a long time. Stick to the casinos, those make sense and are a good business move.
Obviously they are still alive (i.e. no genocide) or else they wouldn't be complaining now.
Can I mod this entire story down as racist flame bait?
I don't know what it is like in Canada, but in the United States we regularly sell off parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. It is considered to be held in common by the people of the United States, so we charge companies to use it. I'm no expert on the subject, but they appear to be well within their rights. Why all the anger?
They should charge birds for violating their airspace too. They've had a free ride in their airspace for a long time.
"To my knowledge, no private (non-government) entity has won even the first round of court using that argument."
And yet people justify piracy using that very same argument.
Next thing you know, they'll want a percentage of the air we breathe and for us to 'stitch up' the ozone layer. I live in Manitoba, anyone here with a treaty card pays NO taxes and goes to school for free. Not to mention the miles of land and the resources the government pays for them to be sustainable. Enough is enough.
Ryan
How about getting JOBS rather than drinking away your welfare cheques all day? I work in downtown Regina and see nothing but listless drunken savages lumbering along the streets.
Not long now and we'll have airlines paying land owners for flying through their property. Land isn't just dirt you know, it's everything down to the earths core and up to the... god's heavens.
The Maori in New Zealand tried to claim airspace and even up where the satelites fly!
http://twm.co.nz/maorispace.htm
"The group apparently told MPs that their air space extended even further - to the outer limits of the universe."
If you're going to be mad you might as well go the whole hog.
-------
Drink Coffee - Do Stupid Things Faster And With More Energy!
Time to start thinking of ways to better themselves is what they should be doing, rather than looking for more tactics to rip off the honest, hard working taxpayers of Canada. Message to the politicians in Ottawa: you don't do anyone a service by spoonfeeding them when they don't need it. This country is going to be in a lot of trouble in another 20 or 30 years. Shrinking middle-class, anyone?
On first glance it sounds ridiculous; however there is some precedence in the monetization of air:
0 5.html.
. 0.pdf: www.pff.org/issues-pubs/books/060309dacaspectrum1. 0.pdf+lectro-magnetic+spectrum+auctioned&hl=en&ct= clnk&cd=1
-The state of New York has filed suit against Ohio for dumping pollution on them through the airwaves http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/mar/mar18a_
-A portion of the electro-magnetic spectrum is going to be auctioned off in the U.S.
"the spectrum is a national resource that should be managed".
PDF: www.pff.org/issues-pubs/books/060309dacaspectrum1
google cache: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:fH_s8JehCyEJ
If governments can make money off the spectrum then why not so-called "First Nation" governments? It really boils down to how much legal and economic authority Indians should have. And it deals with the ambiguity of a people who both want to claim their individuality and distinction from the rest of society, and still be apart of that society, especially when it comes to exploiting natural resources. It's pretty much politics as usual. Seems like the typical having-your-cake-and-eating-it-to mentality.
I have this really big Faraday cage...
The sad part is they will get it. Fucking bend over and take it up the ass country.
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
first in place - last in everything else....
--they don't even know how they got here.... (tm)
They literally pass right through their land all the time...
http://twitter.com/OLDTELEGRAM
This is why property becomes such a problem. When we're buying the air for a good cause, corporations will suck up the air and sell it to us now that it has become a commodity. (e.g. water) Soon the law is there to make sure we pay for the right to suck up the air, and pay waste disposal for exhaling, and taxes on it all. Not to say to some degree we're not already there. Everything's really not for sale. We just pretend it is, and enforce the idea. Who didn't realize it would become so problematic?
The world she is becoming a sad place.
So, pray, tell us, what resource belonging to First Nations is being consumed, so that you have less of it the signal has passed through?
To play devil's advocate since half of the posters are bashing Indian people and the other half are foaming at the mouth about how stupid a concept this is...
...spectrum. When one person is using a certain chunk, another can't until their systems are sufficiently isolated enough. Given that the Canadian and US government sold (and continue to sell) this spectrum off for huge, huge chunks of money AND as a result regulate who can use what parts...why shouldn't they be allowed to do the same, if they are a sovereign nation? (if they're not, then that's a different matter.)
There are libertarian-esque viewpoints along the lines of, "oh, we shouldn't control the radio spectrum!" Well, then you end up with your neighbor's radio tower cutting off your portable phone or making your garage door open randomly, and your wireless network causes his car's remote lock fob to not work, and the local fire department's radios are suddenly useless because Bob's Plumbing Supply implemented a digital paging system for their truck fleet.
The world has already settled on cell phone frequencies, but the moral high ground goes to the tribes if Canada didn't consult with them when it signed on to the whole "sure, we'll make cell frequencies in Canada X, Y, and Z", if geography is such that signals from towers in Canada would penetrate to any degree into these territories.
Note, I said the moral high ground- not the practical high ground. The practical high ground goes of course to the cell phone industry and Canada...
Please help metamoderate.
It's not that they want to charge for cellular signals using their airspace, it's that they want to get paid to not implement signal-jamming technology.
The total lack of preexisting or logical legal basis combined with the impossibility of an effective enforcement mechanism make such a claim over cellphone traffic and sovereign territory astoundingly absurd.
Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
but they'd try to charge you for the sound waves.
It's way past time to end this ludicrous segregation of Indians into subcitizens on reservations. I propose that we convert reservations into private property contained within the states or regions encapsulating them, with the tribal council or other group elected by the tribal members given the deed to the property. Furthermore, declare a 100-year statute of limitations on all property disputes nationally.
Seriously, let's repatriate our brothers and put this insanity to rest.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Can't we just wrap the entire space in a large bubble of tin-foil? Like a super-gigantic tin-foil hat--that way, none of that electromagnetic stuff accidently violates their airspace...
So, what you're trying to say is that the only good bee is a dead bee?
Do they want compensation for those as well? Doesn't terrestrial radio/tv also "violate" their airspace in the same way that cellphone signals do?
The Wknd Sessions - Malaysian and South East Asia independent music
Saying that unwanted EM radiation violates airspace is an interesting angle. So if my neighbors or passersby are doing something visually repugnant that is visible from my property, could I then say they are violating my airspace with those images?
These guys are probably going to have a hard time making a case on this though. If only they could show that the cell phone companies were using their aether...
When I read this article, passing through my mind, was an image of untamed First Nation lands. Bison roaming. Pre-casinos. Pre-Hard Rock Cafe. That sort of thing. To whom should I make out the check?
Conversely, can we all bill them for wasting our neural energy contemplating the stupidity of their claim. That has to be worth something too.
Funny story about Ovide Mercredi. I had the opportunity to meet him in 1992 (I think) when the Assembly of First Nations had their annual conference on Manitoulin Island, in Northern Ontario. At this time, he was the Grand Chief of the Assembly, and recogizable across the country. I grew up on Manitoulin and was working as a waiter/bartender at the hotel/restaurant where he and his entourage were staying during the conference, in a little town called Gore Bay.
:-)
We open up the dining room for dinner early for him and his group (about 10 people), as they had to get to a meeting. I get chosen to serve their table. Hey, it's as close to "celebrity" as I've ever seen in this place, so I consider it somewhat of an honour.
So I introduce myself to the table and run through the spiel. I hand everyone the menus, and then explain the day's "special" (not on the menu). I then explain that all entres come with your choice of pototoes. Now, the kitchen prepared different styles of potatoes: sometimes they were scalloped, or oven roasted, but most often the choices were mashed pototoes or a baked potato. I've been working at this place for a couple of summers now, so the words just flow off my tongue automatically. Plus, I'm a bit nervous, so I'm talking a bit faster than normal. On this afternoon, I say the same thing I've said hundreds of times: "All dinners come with your choice of pototoes: mashed or baked."
Mercredi is in the middle of sipping a glass of water. As I say this, he nearly sprays the water across the table, looks up at me, and blurts out, "What kind of potatoes!?"
Instantly, I (and the rest of the table) realize how the phrase "mashed or baked" can sound if you are being a little rushed!
Naturally, the table explodes with laughter, and I just about kill myself laughing too. They enjoyed the meal, but of course had to make a comment on how "creamy" the mashed potatoes were, and wanted to make sure that they weren't the "mashedorbaked" style of potatoes.
I wonder if he still remembers that afternoon?
Look at the tomato! Isn't it sad? He can't dance! Poor tomato!
I want to see them try and sue the Sun for all those nasty UV rays and whatnot that burn peoples skin! That'll teach the Sun to provide light and fuel for life on this planet!
Unbelievable...
No words of wisedom here.
who sees where they are coming from? Okay, so I just skimmed the article, but don't most native Americans thing that everything is sacred in some way, including the air? Okay, yes, most of us will sit here and laugh about this, but think about it. You are brought up in a culture where everything is sacred. The water, the earth, the soil, the trees, the air. Someone from another culture upstream decides to build a damn that alters the water and how it flows. Most of us would argue they have a reason for compensation. We come in and decide to cut down their trees, they would want compensation. These to us are physical things that we can put monatary value on. But the natives are seeing it not as just a physical thing, but as a spiritual thing. Extending this thinking to the air waves is not that far of a stretch. And the thought of radio waves are invading their aerospace is actually a really good argument. Most countries that I know of require any device that operates that puts out any type of radio waves or electromagnetic field to be licensed and regulated. Broadcasters and radio operators must pay for braodcast licenses. If there is an Indian nation where we are sending radio waves through their aerospace without paying them a licensing fee, the idea of paying for compensation suddenly does not become so outragious.
It's a stupid story, for sure, but RTA: Chief Ovide Mercredi of the Grand Rapids First Nation is the one pitching it. You're right: It is racist flamebait, but it's _his_ racist flamebait. Mod him down.
But yeah.. non-native folks say dumb stuff every day and 99.9999% of it is never reported. I guess when the Media got this, they thought "woo hoo!" So it's a media beatup, and not a media beatup at the same time. If they lawyers of a cashed-up multinational got the idea, the reaction would be much more subdued. There are taxes on far more stupid concepts.
Okay, so it was our ancestors fault that first nations people lost their land and resources and almost lost their entire civilization. Fine. They screwed up. We admit that.
But it's past time, in my opinion, for the First Nations people to grow up and started accepting the fact that they are Canadians, equal in all respects to any other Canadian, and accept the responsibilities that come with that. No other Canadians, after all, get special favours granted to them by the government because of injustices done to their ancestors, so why should they?
After all, expecting perpetual repayment for something that cannot ever be repaid is not that far removed from everlasting slavery.
Is that equality? Is that justice? Or is it vengeance?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Everyone who smells any molecule of my farts owes me $12.50
Table-ized A.I.
I want payment from everyone, based on my mineral rights extending to the center of the Earth under my property, for my contribution to gravity. Anyone not paying up will have theirs revoked.
Or, I could be a bit more discerning. How about payment from AIROS (American Indian Radio On Satellite) for being bombarded by their signal, unwanted?
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
Maybe I should have a cell phone tower at my property so I can collect the most amount of money since all of the signal on that area will need to go that tower it is sent over landlines. So at the cell tower you will get 100% and as you get further from the cell tower the inverse-square law applies since the signal gets weaker inverse-square the distance it travels. I don't know what the law in Canada but in the USA this really can't happen since in theory the FCC controls the electromagnetic spectrum but not where it goes. I think the First Amendment protect us from "right of way" issues involving this so FCC doesn't bother anyone unless they violate Rule 15 of FCC and they do and have cited people causing interference.
I'd treat this problem like the internet would. I'd route around it. Sure, they'd be out cellular signals, but you know, it's nice to have to pay one more tax to some tribal idiot who's just as useless as our tribal government in Washington.
Anti-Globalism
What if I fly an airplane 1 foot outside their airspace and my lights pass through their airspace? Will I need to pay for the privilege?
I categorically deny all forms of responsibility but personal responsibility. Nobody who conquered the Indian nations is alive today, and we, as a culture, do not believe the son inherits the guilt of the father. Indian reservations ought to simply be considered a funny kind of municipality, with no more rights than any town or city.
"When it comes to using airspace, it's like using our water and simply because there's no precedent doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do."
It's not right because the use of it doesnt make it unusable for any other purpose INCLUDING reusing it for the same purpose in concurrency. If there's no scarcity, you're basically saying "We should be able to charge people for (being fertile/breathing/growing hair), and simply because there's no precedent doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do."
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
In order to receive accurate compensation they would need some way to quantify the signals that pass through their land. How do they intend to do this? How? How? (I know, that was weak.)
It is also true that when two signals occupy the same frequency (as far as can be distinguished, and allowing for the fact that bandwidth is very literally the width of the radio band used), those signals WILL interfere with each other. This is not just true of signals of comparable strength, although that's when you start to really notice it for analog signals. For digital signals, see most of signals theory.
Now, arguably ALL electromagnetic signals will (eventually) pass through every point in the observable Universe. This means the tax has to either discriminatory or extremely small.
Personally, I do believe absolutely in the regulation of the airwaves - more so than the FCC, apparently, as I believe the radio astronomers should get first pick on any frequency that is vital to their science and replaceable by broadcasters. I also believe that there should be zero overlap between uses of the spectrum, so if X is allocated to the military, it SHOULD NOT be used by civilian devices and vice versa. In other words, if people won't play nicely in the radio sandpit, I believe it to be the responsibility of the appropriate authority to smack the b**** over the head with a clue-stick until they do. There are plenty of frequencies to meet all reasonable needs.
However, that is the exact antithesis of free trade and commodities, in which commodities can be bought and sold with minimal intervention, never mind strict quotas and optimizing for maximum gain to all parties. (Not most, all. None of this greater good for the greater number stuff, if it's not optimal for all then it's not optimal.) You cannot have systems both statically optimized and left to drift in the free market. The latter is good for many things and ends up with dynamic optimization in appropriate cases. Here, the needs and interests are all pre-defined and well known. The constraints on what you need to transmit a given amount of information in a given length of time is well-known. The absorption and reflective characteristics are also well-known and well-understood. The only direction the free market can go is towards inefficiency and waste.
I accept that airspace is "used" all over the planet by all radio signals, but if radio signals were managed, not marketed, there would be no issue with this. Only the markets can make the First Nations' claim valid.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
If the cellphone companies don't want to pay they can stop providing cellular coverage for that entire area.
:). So in my opinion, the max a country should pay compensation to a peoples for past evils would be at _maximum_ 3 generations (of course if the country still doesn't think it did anything wrong in the first place, you better be careful).
Sounds reasonable to me. Let's see how well their area does if nobody provides coverage to them.
Of course if they really want to be a sovereign nation and start making rules like that, then it's time they stopped collecting "pocket money" from "Step-mommy" just because "the evil great-great-great-grandstep mom" was bad to them, and started paying their own way.
If a culture/people takes so long to recover from such a set back then something is wrong somewhere.
A not so atypical scenario: First generation immigrant works hard and becomes rich, 2nd generation - maintains the wealth, 3rd generation blows it all away
Spot on. There's precedent in New Zealand for the sharing of spectrum sale revenue with the Maori population.
Ultimately, spectrum is a valuable shared resource like any other. If governments are making money from selling it and they have treaty obligations to indigenous populations they're probably going to have to share that revenue. Of course it all depends on how strong the original treaty is. In New Zealand, the Maori kicked some serious butt when the Poms arrived. They negotiated a fairly strong treaty and consequently they have significantly more legal rights than, for example, Australian Aborigines.
One of these days I'm moving to Theory - everything works there
Alrite I'll bit for what's basically a troll. Lefty having a bad day? The First Nations want to exert governmental control, of their own and not the surrounding governments -- that's definitely not capitalism. They're also using the court system to try get what they have dubious claims on, and as far as I know unbridled capitalism doesn't say take it to the courts (take it to the market, instead!). Lastly, trying to establish property rights or ownership in regards to radio spectrum is a bit absurd. How do you own energy emissions? Note that the U.S. government, on the other hand, does not try this, but licenses it -- i.e. taxes it as if its a publicly owned good, which makes the most sense.
Boycott Sony
Next step should be taxing everyone who talks, since by talking you're using their airspace... Let's see, two cents for every word you speak, and I shall be able to by another island every week or so :))
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
First post? Really? Holy shit man, that wasn't even close.
let them shoot down the cell phone signals whenever they see one.
*shrug*
-jX
Don't you just love politics? It's like a comedy of errors.
It's damn near impossible to fire a native from any position in the Canadian government, regardless of gross incompetence. That's not to say some aren't capable--but if you happen to have a bad apple, just try to fire that person. If (s)he's also a native French speaker, you're completely hosed.
Good grief. This should have been published under "Funny". Oh wait. Not PC !!! Nevermind.
Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
If Natives really did care about 'their' land, air, water etc ... instead of suing for revenues from a harmless radio signal service that passes their way, and which they also use, they would be suing every company and government entity upwind from them that release any kind of pollution that drifts down to them.
... especially the thousands of them who use their status cards to buy high tax items like cigarettes tax free, just to sell them to anyone who asks at a great profit while still discounted from legal retail. Anyone remember the extreme example, where thousands of cases of cigarettes were smuggles between canada and the USA through native reserves to avoid taxes at great profit to native leaders?
... reverse apartheid. Here's a great right that some natives in Victoria BC have excersized for decades ... the right to theft and vandalism!
... so no collector is safe there either.
... but oops, no water or sewer service because the band didnt get approval and permits for the hookups from the community supplying the services next door. Too bad for the buyers who put down deposits before construction. For a couple years they had to just hold it til they left the reserve. It was on reserve land, so no one went to jail for the scam.
... but no, the native people don't go after their corrupt leaders, heck they aren't criminals, they're idols! so they go after the government and people of canada.
... But bands like the Haida on BC's coast had a long history of invading and pillaging neighbouring tribes. The Kwakuitl band suffered greatly from the Warrior lifestyle of the Haida. But I guess the Haida couldn't take their own medicine when they finally lost their land to the europeans. Maybe this is why the native groups of BC have literally claimed 125% of British Columbia in land claim disputes with the provincial and federal governments. They still can't agree amongst themselves who had taken over what land from what band before the europeans took it all.
This is just another native scam setup to suck money from the productive parts of society so they can stay on reserve.
The natives of canada pay no income tax, and are exempt from various sales taxes if the store is on a reserve. This alone should give them all the advantage they need to get ahead in life
In parts of canada, some native groups have legal rights that no one else in Canada has
Members of the Songhees band have purchased boats and cars with no intention of paying for them. To avoid collection agencies and the police, the stolen items simply stay on the reserve. In the case of one stolen boat, i watched it sit overlooking Admirals Road rotting away unused for probably 20 years. The police won't go on the reserve
For all my life native children from the Songhees band have gotten their kicks by vandalising public and private property and then stepping back onto the reserve before the police can get them. 10's of thousands of dollars have been spent simply to repair a bus stop shelter on Craigflower road that got smashed week after week after week.
How about the Tsawwassen band, that 'sold' (land on reserver is never really sold) fully loaded condos on reserve land to anyone who'd pay, with a beautiful ocean view
All across canada native leaders have been caught in corruption scandals, where millions of dollars have been embezelled while the communities they lead and were supposed to administer with the money are forced to suffer
They have had plenty of time to adapt to the modern world, they sure don't hesitate to use any modern tool like the rest of us including the very cell phones they want to steal money from.
Maybe it's time for native bands in canada to pay back other native bands for stolen land. They'd have you believe they were entirely peaceful until Europeans came along
George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"
It seems a pity that a story like this brings out so many "wah wah wah they have it so easy wah wah" comments from slashdotters. I may not agree with the logic of the legal action but the Indian bashing is not required.
I'm sure I will get modded down for speaking against the group think.
The smarter home exchange, http://switchhomes.net
I'm just gonna sue the RIAA for all the music that goes through my property ;)
There are also the analogue and digital TV broadcasters, the satellite broadcasters, the RADARs, police radio links, airlines and naval radio coms and even neighbour's remote controls (TV set, car doors, garage door ...)!
Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
should be to build a giant faraday cage around the reservations... keeping the signals out. Heh...
Basic common sense says
"conquered people are in no position to make demands".
Since being conquered,theyve been given tools,time and opportunity to catch their primitive culture up with the world.Instead,greed,corruption and indifference due to being given what others earn has left indians needy and wanting.
Solution:Ignore them,quit funding them and further still,start granting casinos to worthy Americans who will work hard to gain revenues for "their" communities.
Wean 'em so they can grow into a self sustaining people again.
Then we can kill off welfare and help other cultures and races get back on their feet.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
. . . it's like using our water and simply because there's no precedent doesn't . . .
Tribes v U.S.: How can there not be precedent? There are rivers that flow into tribal land; could the U.S. divert them? There are rivers that flow out of tribal land; could the tribe divert them? What about airplanes? What about wildlife? There are plenty of things that pass into and out of tribal land. There must be precedent.
Other Sovereign Nations v U.S.: How can there not be precedent? Both Canada and Mexico must have reached some agreement with the U.S. on how to handle near-border cell phone, TV, and radio signals. There must be precedent.
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
We pay for gas, electricity, water, and other utilities to use them. We pay for phone, cable, internet, and other telecommunications to use them. We do not pay to use the air around us. How can anyone charge air usage for radio waves if they don't charge air usage for consumption? What about plants? If I had a forest on my private property, would my monthly air bill be less than that of one with not a single plant? Also, what if I could swim down the Mississippi River interstate, would I have to pay a fee to use that water to pass through a state? I'm not going to give my opinion on the legality of this, thats for a judge to decide. But I will argue that if they can charge for usage of air in this manner, then what else could be charged? And do they charge aircraft to fly through their airspace? If not then I believe that should negate the whole case.
You're a real intellectual, huh?
I don't know if you're Native but I am. Natives could be the most powerful social group in Canada if we wanted to. I've had no trouble getting far in life. I've faced as much racism and discrimination as a redhead or woman or Japanese - in other words, none if you aren't super-sensitive.
Want to know what is holding us back? Ourselves. Corruption in our leadership. Refusal to leave the reserve but quick to blame White Racists for all our self-inflicted problems.
White Canada has been cruel in the past. It isn't anymore. Get over your persecution complex.
Let's see what it means. I live in the US and will make comments for here.
When you pass from Indian 'territory'/reservation/land into the US is there a passport required? No.
Does the Indian Nation have a standing army? No.
Can the Indian Nation defend itself in case of a real attack? Not really.
Is the Indian Nation subject to certain US laws? Yes.
Can the Indian Nation make a treaty with another country, say Germany? No.
Does any Indian Nation have a seat at the UN? No (or at least I do not think so)
Does the Indian Nation receive subisdy from the larger host government? Yes.
An Indian Nation is not truly sovereign, no matter how you cut it. They have some things that make it look like they are sovereign.
Therfore, this whole arguement is moot. Now they could charge through the nose for a cell company to install a tower. That will only raise the rates for thier memebers.
-- A computer without Windoze is like a choclate cake without mustard
Spectrum space. The usable ranges are large, but not infinite. What if they wanted to use that part of the specturm for something of immediate use to them?
Your ad here. Ask me how!
I live in neighboring Saskatchewan, and I have yet to meet an Indian that isn't a piece of shit welfare case who is always drunk or stoned out of their mind. Frankly I think we should castrate the bastards and let them all die out. They are all worthless.
To all those who point to the corruption or the abuse of rights granted, and to all those who argue that the tribes have had plenty of time to acclimate and assimilate, you're missing the point. Yes, there are assholes in any human tribe: white, black, brown, yellow, red. Yes, politicians and leaders of any nation or any government tend to be corrupt.
But none of that changes the fact of what any sovereign nation is owed.
The rights granted to natives in tribal lands are not about reparation for the wrongs of the past. It's about compromising and living together. They lived here first, and even though they fought wars with each other, as people have fought wars throughout history, doesn't matter. Europeans came to these shores and fought their own wars with the tribes who were here. Some of them were peaceful, others were not. It's irrelevant. What IS relevant is that they have been granted sovereign status because they want to govern themselves, by their own laws, and live independently. And because they were here first the governments of Canada and the US have honored their wishes to some very small* extent. That's it. They don't want to assimilate or acclimate. They don't want to live in the past; they don't need to be "modernized". They simply want to be recognized as sovereign, self-governing people. No one owes them anything except what was negotiated by the treaties which allow them to live independently and by their own terms. And maybe respect, but that's up to you to decide.
If they are a sovereign nation, they may have a right to licensing fees or profits from commercial activity in their airspace. IANAL, so I leave it for a court to decide, but I cannot dismiss the claim as reverse racism like so many others apparently can.
Sorry, I have gone a very long time without posting, and this is probably a flame, but anytime I hear "reverse racism" I think of a spoiled boy or girl complaining because they didn't get a pony for their birthday, so they think they suddenly understand hardship.
*I say small because the tribes near me in the southwestern US have been given mostly shitty, arid land that no one else wanted at the time. They can't farm it effectively, and hunting and fishing is severely limited. I don't blame them for opening casinos and scamming the tourists. What else are you gonna do? Harvest dust? I hear they have embraced alsoholism to help pass the time, so that must be ok then.
I'm charging you for breathing my air.
A tax for using my sunshine?
Stop appeasing savages.
That may be true, but what is the alternative? True democracy doesn't serve the minority at all. The founding fathers were generally more concerned about a tyranny of the majority than they were of a tyrant like King George. This is a common refrain in the Federalist Papers--which are highly-recommended reading because they provide excellent insight into why the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were written the way they were.
The main problem with "representative democracy as practiced today," is that so many of the protections encoded in the Constitution have been effective gutted, so that the majority can trample individual rights.
"We have nothing in common, your attitude annoys me, and your political views are appalling."
every radio signal that passes through my body.
Seriously though, I've often wondered if constantly being hit with all the different radio signals in the air isn't actually doing us harm somehow, say corrupting DNA or increasing our chances of cancer.
radio waves dont travel through air. sound waves do, but radio waves dont. so they arent violating any AIRspace. so unless someone has implementing drumming on tam-tams or yelling as one of the carrier signals for any phone stack, they dont have much of an argument there.
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashdot.org Errors found while checking this document as HTML5!
"why don't you learn the facts"
Actually, he knows what he's talking about. You are the fucking idiot.
We're obviously at an impasse here. Has anyone thought of offering the First Nations a chest of shiny beads and mirrors? Firewater? And, if necessary, blankets?
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
My great great great grandfather was kicked off his land in Russia and forced to move over here... i'm going to go ask the Russian government to give me and the rest of my lineage free money for as long as they live. It's only fair. I mean, it doesn't matter if your great x 20 grandfather did a crime, I feel you are personally responsible for it.
[/sarcasim off]
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
Give me more more more more, when will it ever end. I mean if we give them every claim they have there will be no more Canada. Face it, you lost a couple of centuries ago, I mean its not like Germany is saying give us back what we had in the 1940's....
"This move may inspire First Nations in other provinces to follow suit."
Better still, it might inspire a judge to grow a pair of cojones and tell the "First Nations" to fark off. Their stone age culture was steamrollered by the rest of humanity. Either join the rest of us, or consign yourselves to history.
That would be a nice precedent to set.
-Styopa
In Australia, airports can charge a pilot for flying a GPS approach to their airport, even if they do not actually land at the airport. I find it odd that an Australian Airport can charge a pilot for using a free signal provided by the United States Government to follow a track to the airport, even if they peal off before actually entering the air above the airport.
Maybe I'll see if I can charge people using GPS in their cars who set my house as a destination even if they don't actually show up.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
You've got to be kidding me. This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. It ranks right up there with the anti bottled water campaign. Some people simply have too much time on their hands if they can spend their time dreaming up things like this. Unreal.
He wrote facts. Google them. Where are your contradictory facts to disprove him?
"The First Nations want to exert governmental control, of their own and not the surrounding governments"
They're attempting to exert control over their own property without outside interference.
"They're also using the court system to try get what they have dubious claims on, and as far as I know unbridled capitalism doesn't say take it to the courts (take it to the market, instead!)."
They're attempting to use the courts to protect their perceived property rights. Only the most rabid anarcho-capitalist would be against that. Capitalism is all about private enterprise, but that's difficult to do until private ownership is established.
"Lastly, trying to establish property rights or ownership in regards to radio spectrum is a bit absurd. How do you own energy emissions?"
As I said, through the ability to deny it. Simple jamming would give them control over when a frequency can and cannot be used, and one would need to seek their permission and ask them to stop jamming in order to use that frequency inside their zone of influence. Sounds like de facto ownership to me.
"Note that the U.S. government, on the other hand, does not try this, but licenses it -- i.e. taxes it as if its a publicly owned good, which makes the most sense."
"Publicly owned" is a dirty word around here.
What a fucking joke...are they going to start asking MTS and Shaw for revenue from internet services because a fiber optic line may be beneath their land? These indians should get a life and a real job.
reason being that after you figure all the skybounces and so forth, every single radio wave ever sent has gone through every square centimeter of the atmosphere. might not be strong enough to pull in, but they've been there.
this being the case, governments have set in international treaty how to manage the airwaves within each others' borders, and a signal legally transmitted in one country is accepted as valid in every other one. might be local interference, but if it's IETF in one area, it's the law.
this is like trying to sue God because sunlight also has UV rays in it, and the sunburn cancers affect your quality of life. good luck collecting on that one, although you are certain to find somebody, somewhere admitted to the bar who will bring the suit.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Lets see, 3 towers I can see from my property
Each tower handles on average of 1,100 calls a day
3,300 calls @ $0.02 per call = $66.00 per day
$66.00 x 365 = $24,090.00 per year
Lets say another 1,000 people just passing by that the towers see
I will only charge them $0.001 per phone
Cool, pays for the mortgage and a new tractor...
Count me in
-- I am the NRA, enough said...
The signal does not 'travel'; it is a wave. Look at a water wave and observe that the particles only oscillate around a midpoint. Only information travels. If Manitoba wants to stop that information propagating through their airspace, they should buy a giant tinfoil hat!
They could setup a transmitter that jams the cell frequencies. I suppose though, that if signals from that transmitter went beyond the boundaries of their land they would have angry neighbors to content with.
I hope they don't win.. They would collect their tax from cell companies (or the government who would then get it from cell companies). Companies don't pay taxes, their customers do. Cell phone rates would have to go up.
"Oh yeah, the land you live on may simply have been stolen from natives."
How can you steal land from someone who doesn't believe that land can be owned?
And they wonder why they aren't taken very seriously. :(
"The solution is very simple - give back all the land your great great great great great grandparents' generation stole, and perhaps pay some damages for depriving the rightfull owners of their right to use their land for 100+ years."
Funny how the ownership of land is anathema to "them" until they need to bring up how "we" "stole" it from them, then suddenly they owned it all along
WTF makes "them" think that mere occupation of the land qualified as ownership, or that their claim is any more valid than a claim of ownership through conquest?
In fact, I would argue that by putting lives and resources at risk in order to gain ownership of that land, that conquest is more valid.
And Native americans wonder why they're among the most unpopular minorities around...
When the First Nations people watch the sun go down, that light is travelling over airspace owned by others. Should FN pay royalties to the owners of adjacent lands just to watch the sunset? --jzap
I'm still pissed that the Australopithecan forbearer of the first Asian immigrants to the Americas ('natives') bitchslapped my Australopithecan forbearer on an African steppe on April 16th, 3214518 BC. OK, several of my Australopithecan forbearers (I'm quite the mongrel).
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Mod parent up! These are some very well spoken words by someone who has every right to say them.
Who is John Galt?
First of all, who said I'm white? Maybe I just pay more attention to the news and studied harder during Canadian History and Social Studies classes in high school.
... mines in northern canada must preferentially hire natives, must have a percentage of their crew as natives regardless of skill or experience, putting safety of other miners at risk.
... It isn't racism to simply be aware of which group breaks more of these rules per capita and demand that they clean up their act.
... Quebec! A province built from the scraps left over when the British handily defeated the French on the Plains of Abraham ... a destroyed people who instead of wasting away and loosing their culture, have created a vibrant society inside the boundaries of the country that rules them. (more or less)
I take it that you're assuming I am white because:
- I am against the corrupt native leaders who have screwed their own people, shortening the lifespans of their people and making them live in poverty while they live the high life.
- I'm against natives trafficking anything and everything across the US / Canada border, supporting organized crime, supporting drugs, supporting the spread of guns.
- I'm against natives getting away with vandalism and theft because the police won't enter reserves
- I'm against my tax dollars subsidizing people who chose to sit around 'on the dole'. If their lost culture is so important to them, then if they are going to live off of my tax money, they need to throw out the drugs and alcohol and spend their time re-establishing their culture productively.
- I'm against natives having rights that the rest of canada does not have. Everyone must be treated equally.
- I'm against native re-writting history to hide their own dirty secrets
- I'm against native groups forcing quota's on resource companies
- I'm against native groups blockading roads / trains / pipelines / powerlines, and setting up ambush points and combat trenches around such structures, supposedly illegally, while the police do nothing at all to stop it.
- I do expect everyone in society to try to be productive, to pay their share of taxes, to abide by the law and protect our constitution and charter of rights and freedoms, to live and let live, and to not force their beliefs on their neighbours.
Everything in my "I'm Against" list applies to natives and non-natives alike
If they did clean up their act, end all their internal corruption, and strive to live good productive lives guess what would happen!
If you still think I'm a racist, then what the hell does that make you Cannuck?
George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"
Actually, Australia is not necessarily the only country in Australia.
I like my coffee the way I like my women - roasted and ground up into little tiny pieces.
This is the kind of behavior I would expect from someone anally violated with a 1-button mouse.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
So you can cut and paste. Big fat hairy deal!
... then you'd have a chance to peacefully carve out a cultural place Within canada the way Quebec has.
... there's nothing stopping you from working to become the government ... the way separatists in Quebec have.
... then you will get what you deserve ... shortented lives, poor standard of living, and a miserable life.
I still say that if you natives got rid of your corrupt leaders, and tried to live good lives without demanding handouts and blaming everything on the government
Don't like the government?
If you simply want to consider the white people as racist because he won't pay for everything you want, and think you can keep on breaking laws everywhere
So you've chosen the miserable life haven't you?
George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"