While I'm not an attorney that would be the best person to ask this question of, we do have a lot of cases that have both criminal and civil implications...
I would say that the Salvation Army store would probably not be liable as they are not under obligation to protect a previous owner. In my opinion it would be like trying to sue a car dealership for failing to remove a social security card of the previous owner from the glove box. The original owner failed to protect himself and then likely lost any claim to action against anyone else.
Unless of course the store stated that they would "prepare" the systems to be ready for new owners by wiping them clean.
Even though they might not be liable, it's still sad that the manager wouldn't allow a few extra minutes to try to get rid of the personal info. Most people are ignorant of exactly how much they are giving away when they dispose of an old system.
Well it depends on the agency. For most agencies in my area, you start off as a patrol officer and work your way up. A degree in an IT field or similar will help you stand out, although not always required. Then get ready for LOTS of schools to learn the methodology to not only get the information you're looking for, but to then prepare it for court.
I know that some agencies in other areas hire non-sworn personnel for computer forensics experts (typically larger departments). Also, the FBI has civilian (non-agent) examiners that have security clearances. They require a degree and likely some previous experience.
You don't need jurisdiction to investigate it. You send out the subpoena, the ISP responds, and you then contact the local police there to investigate further. Most states also allow prosecution of Internet crimes in either the place of the victim OR suspect. Not to mention, the original theft occurred where the victim is at...
I'm a cybercrimes detective and computer forensics examiner in a Sheriff's Department and do this all the time. It simply requires a subpoena to the ISP that the IP address returns to. If the campus police and city police won't do it, try your county or state police agencies (both which also have jurisdiction). In my state, all police officers have power anywhere in the state and I could "technically" investigate and/or charge anyone with a crime anywhere in the state. We just don't typically do this because it's stepping on each other's toes. As a county officer though, I frequently investigate crimes involving cases inside city or town limits if that agency doesn't have the capability. If the IP address ends up being from another state, we just contact the local police there to ask for their assistance.
Keep asking and ask to talk to a supervisor if they are not helping as much as you would like. While there is no obligation from a police agency to necessarily do everything they can on a property crime, most department heads will do what they can to keep the public happy.
Like others have said though, you may simply get a return to a campus, business, or open wireless network. Good luck.
Libel and Slander are civil law issues, not criminal offenses. Depending on the state, there may be some criminal laws that cross over (such as harassment or intimidation laws); however the terms you used refer only to civil issues that you can bring a lawsuit against someone for.
And what is your basis for the statement that "prosecutors as a whole like to ignore" the 4th Amendment? I have worked with prosecutors on a daily basis for the last 11 years and have never ONCE seen them violate the 4th Amendment or encourage it to be done. I *have* seen it happen on the street, however. Either way, that has nothing to do with this. This is talking about a device that is used to gather incriminating information on a Windows-based computer. If that information is obtained in violation of the 4th Amendment, it's going to be thrown out in court regardless of the method used to obtain it.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised about what people claim that they know when they have no first-hand knowledge of how things really work. Instead they rely on vague generalities that "this stuff happens all the time" without being able to point to a specific example.
Those of us in the computer forensics business don't use COFEE for real cases anyway. It's barely useful as a quick analysis tool for something you don't need to worry about presenting in court (thus completely nullifying the term forensics when talking about it).
Not surprised at all the typical slashdot anti-law enforcement rhetoric in here... especially all of the "innocent people will be saved!" statements. But I *am* a bit surprised that some of the commenters have said what they have. Do this many people really not want truly guilty people caught and prosecuted?
Not disagreeing with you at all. However, it's a basic marketing strategy to lower prices to sell more units thereby increasing overall profits. My point is not that they shouldn't be making money off of it... it's that they would sell more units if they lowered the price.
Yeesh... apple is releasing snow leopard for $29 and microsoft is still pricing stuff like this? When will they learn that a lower price will likely increase the number of people willing to pay for it instead of pirating it.
Working my way through college, I realized that I had no desire to be stuck in a cubicle all day long but my passion was still computer science. So I decided to use my skills in something more exciting. IT / CS skills apply in a lot more unconventional fields than you might realize.
I chose to become a forensic computer examiner for a medium-sized law enforcement agency. I get to use my passion in a job that offers lots of excitement as well. What other job can you spend weeks analyzing bits and pieces of a suspect's hard drive and then go kick a door in and make an arrest? To each his own, but this is how I made myself happy in my career.
Yeah it would be great if it were "every man for himself" and everyone made sure to protect themselves. However, that idea went out the window when the internet became main-stream. If everyone that used the internet were tech-savvy enough to protect themselves, this would be a non-issue. So do we need to tell all of the older people, children, and computer-idiots that use the internet that they're just out of luck since they don't understand the complications in using such an open medium? We could, but I don't think that's exactly fair.
To me, it's the equivalent of saying, "OK you're of age to drive on the nation's interstate system. So we're not going to put up any speed limits or signs/signals/regulatory devices. It's every man for himself... good luck."
Unfortunately, educating people isn't going to cut it. And I wish it was. I'm all for putting banks and anything related to finances on a more-secure, separate network. Unfortunately, we can't rely on end-users to protect themselves.
In all seriousness, I can't wait. I LOVED the MI games and recently went through them all again courtesy of SCUMMVM. Will be nice for something new from Ron.
I'm amazed at your ability to so perfectly lump all US citizens into one super-accurate stereotype!! I didn't realize that we all think we can spread democracy via a gun barrel. Thank god that an expert-on-all-things-American such as you told me, so that I know how to think!/sarcasm off
Tell me what country you're from so I can make an ignorant ill-informed statement about how you all feel.
I never said they were on their deathbed. I was inferring that their customers will eventually get tired of this stuff. I guess I was too obtuse when I said that they would go the way of the dodo. I'll spell it out for you... EVENTUALLY this sort of narrow-mindedness about older generations of products will lead to dissatisfaction. Windows XP offers very little that other OS's don't have for free. Thus I made my statement that they shouldn't be charging for their operating systems... especially their old ones that aren't even supposed to be sold any more.
Geeze I even made reference to the mountains of money they still make on their other products. Doesn't sound a bit like I was saying Microsoft is dead. Reading comprehension FTW!
Microsoft needs to get a clue and realize that they need to make Windoze free. Linux is making giant strides in the usability department (albeit still a long way off for a lot of people) and people are going to get tired of shit like this. Microsoft is starting to remind me of the recording industry. Either adapt to the way things are changing, or go the way of the dodo. They can still make mountains of money from their other products...
I'm a cyber/white collar crimes detective for a medium-sized agency. There are so many problems with online crimes right now that I don't even know where to start. But one of the most important things is that people realize some of the problems we face...
1) I know it's popular (especially on slashdot) to bitch about how "Big Brother" is always trying to violate your civil rights for fun. But I will tell you that the red tape is one of the biggest factors in why a lot of online crimes don't get solved. For nearly every online crime, the first step is sending out subpoenas to every company involved. In a fraud case, this means: banks and the company where the order took place. Then once you get those returns, you have to subpoena the ISP to find out what the physical address is. All of these companies take anywhere from a week to 3 months to get you the information back.
2) Once you get all your basic background work on the case done, now you have to physically drive to the address where the activity took place. You want to know what happens to 90% of my cases at the point? Dead end. The idiot has an unsecured wireless router, which means that anyone could have perpetrated the crime. And of course, anyone that is dumb enough to leave their wireless network wide open isn't smart enough to have turned on logging in their router (which is off by default in almost all routers).
3) OK so now what. No we try to look at where the item was shipped, assuming it was an online purchase. Guess what? Nobody ships it to their home address. They ship it to a neighbors, or an abandoned house down the street, or one of the thousands of "work from home repackaging" businesses. OK, so do I go to a judge and try to get a search warrant to search a house where a package was delivered just on the off chance that they were stupid enough to use their real address? NO I can't! Judges want more hard evidence than that.
4) In non-purchase fraud cases (i.e. a person is transferring money around), we follow the money trail just like we do with any other financial crime. Guess where I dead-end here? Stored Value Cards. Get one from overseas, and now they don't have to comply with my subpoena. Dead in the water again.
OK so those are some of the issues in investigating online crimes, specifically fraud cases. Wanna know what the biggest issue is after all of that? I just spent about 30 man-hours investigating that $500 fraud case. I contact the victim to let them know what's going on. They've already been reimbursed by the bank simply by making their initial police report. The bank doesn't give a shit because $500 is nothing to them and they get to turn it in to insurance as a loss.
These are some of the reasons that online crimes aren't getting solved. For every one that I make an arrest on, I have 10 that I've dead-ended on. Unless the credit card companies and banks decide to take a stand and make their financial methods more secured, they're going to continue losing money. So the original story says that only 40% of time is being spend on fraud cases. Yeah that's probably about right. Kiddy porn and child solicitation cases may not seem as serious to some people, but they're so much more cut and dry. That's like saying that more robberies are solved than burglaries... they're 2 entirely different crimes with different sets of parameters.
Unfortunately, the very definition of MMORPGs up to this point is: time sink. Oh, and we'll add in some fluffy plot lines that nobody cares about and make press releases about how "immersive" the gameplay is.
Now if people would just make bot software to do my dishes and mow my lawn...
Slashdot Mirror
While I'm not an attorney that would be the best person to ask this question of, we do have a lot of cases that have both criminal and civil implications...
I would say that the Salvation Army store would probably not be liable as they are not under obligation to protect a previous owner. In my opinion it would be like trying to sue a car dealership for failing to remove a social security card of the previous owner from the glove box. The original owner failed to protect himself and then likely lost any claim to action against anyone else.
Unless of course the store stated that they would "prepare" the systems to be ready for new owners by wiping them clean.
Even though they might not be liable, it's still sad that the manager wouldn't allow a few extra minutes to try to get rid of the personal info. Most people are ignorant of exactly how much they are giving away when they dispose of an old system.
Well it depends on the agency. For most agencies in my area, you start off as a patrol officer and work your way up. A degree in an IT field or similar will help you stand out, although not always required. Then get ready for LOTS of schools to learn the methodology to not only get the information you're looking for, but to then prepare it for court.
I know that some agencies in other areas hire non-sworn personnel for computer forensics experts (typically larger departments). Also, the FBI has civilian (non-agent) examiners that have security clearances. They require a degree and likely some previous experience.
If he's getting into the person's gmail account, it most certainly is. It's called "computer trespass" in my state.
But hey, don't take my word for it. I just do it 40 hours per week...
You don't need jurisdiction to investigate it. You send out the subpoena, the ISP responds, and you then contact the local police there to investigate further. Most states also allow prosecution of Internet crimes in either the place of the victim OR suspect. Not to mention, the original theft occurred where the victim is at...
I'm a cybercrimes detective and computer forensics examiner in a Sheriff's Department and do this all the time. It simply requires a subpoena to the ISP that the IP address returns to. If the campus police and city police won't do it, try your county or state police agencies (both which also have jurisdiction). In my state, all police officers have power anywhere in the state and I could "technically" investigate and/or charge anyone with a crime anywhere in the state. We just don't typically do this because it's stepping on each other's toes. As a county officer though, I frequently investigate crimes involving cases inside city or town limits if that agency doesn't have the capability. If the IP address ends up being from another state, we just contact the local police there to ask for their assistance.
Keep asking and ask to talk to a supervisor if they are not helping as much as you would like. While there is no obligation from a police agency to necessarily do everything they can on a property crime, most department heads will do what they can to keep the public happy.
Like others have said though, you may simply get a return to a campus, business, or open wireless network.
Good luck.
My mother-in-law is in Guatemala?
Libel and Slander are civil law issues, not criminal offenses. Depending on the state, there may be some criminal laws that cross over (such as harassment or intimidation laws); however the terms you used refer only to civil issues that you can bring a lawsuit against someone for.
And what is your basis for the statement that "prosecutors as a whole like to ignore" the 4th Amendment? I have worked with prosecutors on a daily basis for the last 11 years and have never ONCE seen them violate the 4th Amendment or encourage it to be done. I *have* seen it happen on the street, however. Either way, that has nothing to do with this. This is talking about a device that is used to gather incriminating information on a Windows-based computer. If that information is obtained in violation of the 4th Amendment, it's going to be thrown out in court regardless of the method used to obtain it.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised about what people claim that they know when they have no first-hand knowledge of how things really work. Instead they rely on vague generalities that "this stuff happens all the time" without being able to point to a specific example.
*Yawn*
Those of us in the computer forensics business don't use COFEE for real cases anyway. It's barely useful as a quick analysis tool for something you don't need to worry about presenting in court (thus completely nullifying the term forensics when talking about it).
Not surprised at all the typical slashdot anti-law enforcement rhetoric in here... especially all of the "innocent people will be saved!" statements. But I *am* a bit surprised that some of the commenters have said what they have. Do this many people really not want truly guilty people caught and prosecuted?
I make my time back by slacking off at least 75% of my time at work.
The key is to *look* busy... and leave the cursor on the minimize icon.
"I've recently ***been fired from my job for telling everyone I'm*** a Linux administrator within the Department of Defense." ... fixed.
Not disagreeing with you at all. However, it's a basic marketing strategy to lower prices to sell more units thereby increasing overall profits. My point is not that they shouldn't be making money off of it... it's that they would sell more units if they lowered the price.
Yeesh... apple is releasing snow leopard for $29 and microsoft is still pricing stuff like this? When will they learn that a lower price will likely increase the number of people willing to pay for it instead of pirating it.
Working my way through college, I realized that I had no desire to be stuck in a cubicle all day long but my passion was still computer science. So I decided to use my skills in something more exciting. IT / CS skills apply in a lot more unconventional fields than you might realize.
I chose to become a forensic computer examiner for a medium-sized law enforcement agency. I get to use my passion in a job that offers lots of excitement as well. What other job can you spend weeks analyzing bits and pieces of a suspect's hard drive and then go kick a door in and make an arrest? To each his own, but this is how I made myself happy in my career.
Yeah it would be great if it were "every man for himself" and everyone made sure to protect themselves. However, that idea went out the window when the internet became main-stream. If everyone that used the internet were tech-savvy enough to protect themselves, this would be a non-issue. So do we need to tell all of the older people, children, and computer-idiots that use the internet that they're just out of luck since they don't understand the complications in using such an open medium? We could, but I don't think that's exactly fair.
To me, it's the equivalent of saying, "OK you're of age to drive on the nation's interstate system. So we're not going to put up any speed limits or signs/signals/regulatory devices. It's every man for himself... good luck."
Unfortunately, educating people isn't going to cut it. And I wish it was. I'm all for putting banks and anything related to finances on a more-secure, separate network. Unfortunately, we can't rely on end-users to protect themselves.
USB movies, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
Maniac?
Monkey?
Spank?
Sounds like my late nights on teh interwebs...
In all seriousness, I can't wait. I LOVED the MI games and recently went through them all again courtesy of SCUMMVM. Will be nice for something new from Ron.
I'm amazed at your ability to so perfectly lump all US citizens into one super-accurate stereotype!! I didn't realize that we all think we can spread democracy via a gun barrel. Thank god that an expert-on-all-things-American such as you told me, so that I know how to think! /sarcasm off
Tell me what country you're from so I can make an ignorant ill-informed statement about how you all feel.
I never said they were on their deathbed. I was inferring that their customers will eventually get tired of this stuff. I guess I was too obtuse when I said that they would go the way of the dodo. I'll spell it out for you... EVENTUALLY this sort of narrow-mindedness about older generations of products will lead to dissatisfaction. Windows XP offers very little that other OS's don't have for free. Thus I made my statement that they shouldn't be charging for their operating systems... especially their old ones that aren't even supposed to be sold any more.
Geeze I even made reference to the mountains of money they still make on their other products. Doesn't sound a bit like I was saying Microsoft is dead. Reading comprehension FTW!
Microsoft needs to get a clue and realize that they need to make Windoze free. Linux is making giant strides in the usability department (albeit still a long way off for a lot of people) and people are going to get tired of shit like this. Microsoft is starting to remind me of the recording industry. Either adapt to the way things are changing, or go the way of the dodo. They can still make mountains of money from their other products...
I'm a cyber/white collar crimes detective for a medium-sized agency. There are so many problems with online crimes right now that I don't even know where to start. But one of the most important things is that people realize some of the problems we face...
1) I know it's popular (especially on slashdot) to bitch about how "Big Brother" is always trying to violate your civil rights for fun. But I will tell you that the red tape is one of the biggest factors in why a lot of online crimes don't get solved. For nearly every online crime, the first step is sending out subpoenas to every company involved. In a fraud case, this means: banks and the company where the order took place. Then once you get those returns, you have to subpoena the ISP to find out what the physical address is. All of these companies take anywhere from a week to 3 months to get you the information back.
2) Once you get all your basic background work on the case done, now you have to physically drive to the address where the activity took place. You want to know what happens to 90% of my cases at the point? Dead end. The idiot has an unsecured wireless router, which means that anyone could have perpetrated the crime. And of course, anyone that is dumb enough to leave their wireless network wide open isn't smart enough to have turned on logging in their router (which is off by default in almost all routers).
3) OK so now what. No we try to look at where the item was shipped, assuming it was an online purchase. Guess what? Nobody ships it to their home address. They ship it to a neighbors, or an abandoned house down the street, or one of the thousands of "work from home repackaging" businesses. OK, so do I go to a judge and try to get a search warrant to search a house where a package was delivered just on the off chance that they were stupid enough to use their real address? NO I can't! Judges want more hard evidence than that.
4) In non-purchase fraud cases (i.e. a person is transferring money around), we follow the money trail just like we do with any other financial crime. Guess where I dead-end here? Stored Value Cards. Get one from overseas, and now they don't have to comply with my subpoena. Dead in the water again.
OK so those are some of the issues in investigating online crimes, specifically fraud cases. Wanna know what the biggest issue is after all of that? I just spent about 30 man-hours investigating that $500 fraud case. I contact the victim to let them know what's going on. They've already been reimbursed by the bank simply by making their initial police report. The bank doesn't give a shit because $500 is nothing to them and they get to turn it in to insurance as a loss.
These are some of the reasons that online crimes aren't getting solved. For every one that I make an arrest on, I have 10 that I've dead-ended on. Unless the credit card companies and banks decide to take a stand and make their financial methods more secured, they're going to continue losing money. So the original story says that only 40% of time is being spend on fraud cases. Yeah that's probably about right. Kiddy porn and child solicitation cases may not seem as serious to some people, but they're so much more cut and dry. That's like saying that more robberies are solved than burglaries... they're 2 entirely different crimes with different sets of parameters.
Bow-chicka-bow-wow!
Seriously though... unless the woman has the system in her bedroom, what are they hoping to see?
If they did it on my system, they'd just get web-cams of me reading slashdot and playing WoW in my underwear...
Dear Verizon,
Does this mean I'm out of luck then?
Sincerely,
Ernest K. Fuckwad
Actually no I didn't try "The Google"... was being facetious. But thanks for pointing out the obvious... ;)
I completely agree.
Unfortunately, the very definition of MMORPGs up to this point is: time sink. Oh, and we'll add in some fluffy plot lines that nobody cares about and make press releases about how "immersive" the gameplay is.
Now if people would just make bot software to do my dishes and mow my lawn...