Getting Beyond the Helldesk

An anonymous reader writes "I've been working as a helpdesk monkey for over a year in a small-medium sized law firm of around 200 users and I don't know if my patience and sanity can last much longer. I'd like to remain in IT, but in less of a front-line role where I can actually get some work done without being interrupted every five minutes by a jamming printer or frozen instance of Outlook. There isn't really any room for progression at my current employer, and with the weak job market it seems I can only move sideways into another support role. I've been considering a full-time Masters degree in a specialized Computer Science area such as databases or Web development, but I don't know if the financial cost and the loss of a year's income and experience can justify it. Do any Slashdotters who have made it beyond the helpdesk have any knowledge or wisdom to impart? Is formal education a good avenue, or would I better off moving back home, getting a mindless but low-stress job, and teaching myself technologies in my free time?"

Comments

i've got some advice

[Anonymous Coward]

learn to swim

Re:i've got some advice

[Anonymous Coward]

First thing you should do is get a first post on Slashdot, like the parent did. Trust me, within the week anonymous here will be getting a call from a fortune 50 company, with a job offer most of us only have wet dreams about. Why do you think people keep getting first posts?!

However, if you're a slow typer (like me), just reply to the first post and you might get a job sharpening Anonymous Coward's pencils, junior pocket protector executive or something. But let me be blunt (like the pencils): nobody got nuttin' in this world for a second post, as Abba sang: 'First Post takes it all'.

Not sure what you get for a last post, maybe a job as a barman, 'last post at the bar gentlemen, please!'

Re:i've got some advice

[j_166]

I love how you get modded '0 Offtopic' for this. As if the mods were deeply offended by your dissing of the slashdot frist psot tradition.

Re:i've got some advice

[SCPRedMage]

The amusing thing is, as an Anonymous Coward, for him to have a "0, Offtopic" someone would also have had to mod the post up.

Re:i've got some advice

[somersault]

Or perhaps as if the mods were moderating entirely appropriately. Wait a minute, who disrupted the mods' crack supply?

Take the shit to get the cream

[Anonymous Coward]

Stay with it , its the people who who are longest in the job that become managers.

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[plover]

Stay with it , its the people who who are longest in the job that become managers.

Hell, that's good enough reason to quit! Manager of a help desk means you have to take the calls of the screamers who escalate themselves above the first line monkeys, and you take the blame every time you're short staffed because Joe and Jane didn't show up 'cause they're hung-over again.

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[fishbowl]

IT Manager has an opportunity to frame the IT function in terms of ROI when talking to the suits.
Do not underestimate the value of a perception among suits that your role reduces liability or generates revenue.

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[Tokerat]

I'll second this - my previous job wasn't in the IT sector, but it WAS call center and it DID involve a lot of IT; my company was developing new LOB software in-house for which I was consulting, and I was working on some of my own projects involving process-and-procedure documentation and some automation using Office to make up for some of the shortcomings of the new system which the developers could not/would not address.

I was promoted to supervisory status for my above-and-beyond work performance and contributions to the company. I was ecstatic at first - with the burden of constantly taking phone calls lifted, I was free to complete these projects I was working on faster...or so I thought. Managers often seem like idiots because they're dealing with everyone else's problems and have no time for their own. Be careful what you wish for.

...and then I got laid off, along with most of my team (save two people, who where able to relocate) and the entire rest of the building. Wheeeee economy!

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish I could mod you up - but other people beat me to it.

turns out lots of people don't think of anything other than having minions... there's that phrase, "with great power comes great responsibility" well, ok, but what about "with mediocre power comes a huge pile of political bullshit" =)

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[edjs]

"Sacrificing minions: Is there any problem it can't solve?" -Xykon (OOTS)

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[Foxing_Demon]

Now, you could have linked straight to the strip. But we don't mind. As a freguent reader of oots I shall deliver: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[ta bu shi da yu]

But before you do, listen in the above poster so you can learn the lingo.

Until you can optimize the ROI of a value added function by providing excellence in service provisioning within the ITIL framework, you really haven't lived.

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[usasma]

It all depends upon your ultimate goal. Is it the people that you deal with, your bosses, or the work? You can see less people by working at a computer shop - and still work on systems. You can get different bosses by getting another job. You can move into a different sort of work, but it all depends on the opportunities that you make for yourself - either by education, networking, or pounding the pavement.

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell, that's good enough reason to quit! Manager of a help desk means you have to take the calls of the screamers who escalate themselves above the first line monkeys, and you take the blame every time you're short staffed because Joe and Jane didn't show up 'cause they're hung-over again.

A good manager can and will handle the screamers calmly and diplomatically and help put resources on their problem's root cause so that it doesn't happen again. If this screamer is truly abusive and out of bounds, the manager will handle that over time as well. That's what they are there for. A good manager will also weed out the Joe and Jane who can't show up to work on time. If neither of those duties sounds appealing to you (lots of people interaction and tough, emotional conversations), do not pursue management. The point is that those things are exactly the reason a manager is there and that these are not insurmountable problems for which there are no resolutions.

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[DrgnDancer]

Depends on the the situation. It the OP's case, that might actually be possible since it's an internal Help Desk and theoretically the manager has influence with other managers to alleviate the most abusive callers. I used to help manage a computer company's call center though (Back in the day before all of this was outsourced). In that case you solve the problems you can (and certainly some of these people had good reason to be angry), and with the abusive ones you just sob silently and take it. It's not like you can talk to a customer's manager and ask him to have his employees behave like civilized people. In two cases that I recall someone was so well documented and so repeatedly abusive that we were essentially told that they had voided their warranty and could be ignored (In both cases they'd managed to get themselves elevated to the VP of customer service and abused HIM). Otherwise, you just had to deal with it and hope that once the problem was solved, the person would go away.

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[hesaigo999ca]

That's probably because they didn't need you anymore seeing as most of the client base you had was probably laid off too, no use keeping 20 support techies when the phones dont ring!

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[SalaSSin]

No they aren't.

In most companies, they just ask a headhunter to find someone to become manager.

Anyway, i was in the exact situation you are now, and i got out by never giving up on going to job interviews, not necessarily to directly get a job, but to test out what strategies in "marketing" yourself work best.

I found that admitting your weak sides, focusing on the fact that you are willing to learn, and are already reading up on several topics (eg. security / programming perl / hacking windows, ...) and just be yourself works best.

That's how in 4 years time i doubled my salary and am now at the same level as someone who has his masters degree.

Just be sure to keep on trying, and keep reading up on everything you're interested in.

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[Defectuous]

I recant this AC's previous statement,

My advice to you is to show your potential. Just sitting there doing the same thing day in day out shows how much of a drone you are. I spent several years working as a support drone myself mainly due to the fact I was lazy and really had no ambition to move up.having a Kid makes you rethink everything. I show them what you can do and at every opportunity apply for those jobs as they come up. Do not sit content until your in the position of your chose or employment of your choosing.

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[ukbazza]

Hell, that's good enough reason to quit! Manager of a help desk means you have to take the calls of the screamers who escalate themselves above the first line monkeys, and you take the blame every time you're short staffed because Joe and Jane didn't show up 'cause they're hung-over again.

I'd just like to apologise for Jane's behaviour last night. Those vomit stains will come out of the carpet eventually. Thanks, Joe.

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[j-pimp]

In most companies, they just ask a headhunter to find someone to become manager.

Depends. If you can sell yourself as management material, without seeming like a threat to your boss, he might recommend you as a successor.

Anyway, i was in the exact situation you are now, and i got out by never giving up on going to job interviews, not necessarily to directly get a job, but to test out what strategies in "marketing" yourself work best. . . .
That's how in 4 years time i doubled my salary and am now at the same level as someone who has his masters degree. Just be sure to keep on trying, and keep reading up on everything you're interested in.

I did something similarly. Started out third shift as/400 operator/helldesk and now I am a senior developer in a .NET shop. It was a windy road, but thanks to the breadth of my experience I know can pick up a new language, database, OS, etc very quickly.

Re:Take the shit to get the cream

[Achra]

But before you do, listen in the above poster so you can learn the lingo.

Was I the only person that heard a little Abbie Hoffman in that?

What degree do you have?

[GameGod0]

Now's a great time to do your MSc because you can weather the economic storm in academia and pray that the job market will be better when you're out. Heck, you might even get funding so it won't be as much of a financial burden.
...
But that said - What degree do you have that left you stuck on the frontlines of an IT helpdesk? If you don't have a BSc, speak now... (Formal education IS a go

Re:What degree do you have?

[GameGod0]

Ahh, message got cutoff. (AJAX is overrated )
I was going to say that getting a BSc is definitely worthwhile (if you don't have one), and a MSc will definitely help you stand out when your resume lands on someone's desk. I'm having a hard time understanding how someone with a CS or Software Engineering degree could end up in your position though. (Maybe I'm ignorant...)

Re:What degree do you have?

[unlametheweak]

I'm having a hard time understanding how someone with a CS or Software Engineering degree could end up in your position though. (Maybe I'm ignorant...)

I will give you the answer; the companies that hire BSc graduates in "IT" tend to be call centers and help desk type companies. In the 1990s you could go straight out of college and land an 80K per year job. These days you are lucky to land a help desk job. Of course the more successful people will have embellished their experiences on their resumes and with their references. The smart people often end up programming in their parents basement.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that many companies won't hire without an education or experience. If you're absurdly good, highly motivated, lucky, have family connections and/or got there a decade ago then you can have that experience they're looking for. Otherwise you're stuck in a catch-22 and if you're lucky you'll only need to endure a couple years of hellish jobs before getting a non-mind numbing entry level position. Even then you better be very good and lucky if you want to advance.

The thing is that if you're highly motivated and good then education still provides advantages. You can be out at 22 with a Masters, three internships from large companies, tons of industry contacts (at high levels in large companies) and a pretty piece of paper. A starting salary of $150k in someplace like the Bay Area is then quite possible if you play your cards right and anything under $100k would be considered barely worth consideration.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

Very good advice. I graduated last December with a B. S. in computer science, and I have a number of years of IT experience under my belt.

Finding work? Absolutely impossible, even though I had a number of jobs lined up before I graduated (a number of the places went into hiring freezes, and two places just went under). Even though I live in an area that is not hard hit by this economic downturn, I'm competing for jobs from people from other states who are being forced to move.

So, I'm going to continue to pound the pavement, but if I don't find anything by December, it will grad school for me, likely a degree that is more in the IT field, as opposed to CS in general.

As for helpdesks, one's strategy is different depending on the type of helpdesk:

An internal helpdesk for responding to employee problems may be a good stepping stone. The problem is that employees and managers only see you when stuff is broken, and you are out of mind when stuff is running without issue. So, there is an association with the helpdesk people and problems. However, if you are lucky, and can get certificates [1] to show you are serious, you might be able to jump into the core IT department.

An external helpdesk that does product support for customers is a very difficult place to get out of unless you leave the company. Usually it's "firewalled" from the rest of the company. So, at best, one can get into a management position there, or if lucky, get into a product development position (which is hard because the good customer support people will end up locked in support.) Usually to get out of an external helpdesk into something else, one will likely need to find work at another firm.

[1]: Most sysadmins know that certificates don't mean competency. However, they mean a lot to the HR guys and upper line managers who don't care about employee skill, just that they have the right pieces of paper to justify their existence to the company.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

An internal helpdesk for responding to employee problems may be a good stepping stone. The problem is that employees and managers only see you when stuff is broken, and you are out of mind when stuff is running without issue. So, there is an association with the helpdesk people and problems.

One thing that may accumulate surprisingly good results: keep some track of who you have helped out and find the time to simply go ask, "Is it still alright?". Now they remember you fixed something for them (maybe even what it was), they re-associate you with the current no-problem state, and the smarter of them appreciate that you care enough about *their* work to actually come ask. People talk in any company, big or small.

BTW, some will see it as you care about the company's productivity, some will see it as you care about your fellow workers as people; both are a big addition to mere "good fixing tech problems". Don't expect much direct feedback though, it's easier if you keep it just a matter of professional pride and a (maybe quite refreshing) daily habit.

Just check before that there indeed is no problem when you go ask. ;-)

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah an economic crisis is a GREAT time to stop working and reduce your income to near zero while increasing your expenses.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Kleen13]

I hear you , man.... Wishin for points.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Hogwash McFly]

Submitter here. I current hold a upper-second class (the next step down from a first class, don't know how American colleges grade their awards) honours BSc in Comp Sci from a reasonably well-respected UK university. So I meet the criteria for most Computer Science Masters courses that I have come across.

Regarding your confusion of my current position, when I first graduated I was unsure if I was suitable for any kind of development role, which I suppose is the avenue taken by a large proportion of Comp Sci graduates. I was good enough at programming to pass the modules, but I never really programmed for pleasure or got involved beyond what was required of me academically. I know that makes me a blasphemer and a poser on here!

I worked in unrelated fields for a couple of years, which wasn't terrible as I paid off a lot of debt, especially at the beginning while living with the parents. My current job is my first 'proper' IT role, and considering my initial circumstances it seemed like quite a good first rung of the ladder. However, I have felt for quite a while that I both wanted to leave my current area of residence as well as thinking that this job is not right for me. It just feels like the right time to start planning a clean break, and soon, especially with the new academic year creeping up.

I have enough money saved up to live and study for a whole year, so the finance side of a Masters is not the major hurdle if the qualification would be worthwhile. I quite like the idea of going back to academia and taking it seriously this time, no more skipping lectures due to hangovers and doing it half-assed like my Bachelors. Working with colleagues that are involved with data management and web development as part of their own roles, and finding it quite interesting from where I stand, I have been looking at Masters programmes that specialise in these areas, rather than just do another year of general Comp Sci. There aren't that many programmes in these areas so my options are limited but still out there.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Bastardchyld]

I would disagree with getting his MSc, based on the information provided since at this point he has no experience to speak of. All we know is that he has one year of helpdesk experience, now add that with a MSc and what is he really qualified for? I would say he would be overqualified for the helpdesk (with a MSc comes the expectation of a certain amount of $$$), however in a traditional Sysadmin/Architecture all the way up to Director/VP role companies are looking for someone who has experience, an MSc with 1 year of helpdesk will not meet these expectations, so without knowing someone you won't get the job, and to be honest if you knew someone you would already have the job.

Now the fact is that companies are hiring much to the contrary of what is being reported. Many companies are using this as an opportunity to acquire extremely intelligent and motivated people, since there is less competition for a given candidate. So if you do not have a BS I would recommend going for it IF you can go and maintain a job at the same time (because it is the experience you need). If you cannot manage both, experience is much more important in this market, and at this point you should keep your job and maintain and grow your skillset, which does not prevent you from a little self-study. Companies that are at that size are rife with opportunities for projects which would look very good on your resume, do everything with the goal of reducing expenitures and/or improving productivity in some sort of quantifiable way. This is the way to get the attention of the boss (not whining about your current position).

-matt

Re:What degree do you have?

[Bastardchyld]

The bottom line is that companies will hire without education, but they will not hire without experience (even someone with education). If you do run into a company that is requiring a degree (specifically). Then the problem is that they do not understand the job well enough to hire someone into it. It is your job at that point to sell yourself to them, show them why they were wrong in requiring a degree by explaining your experience, and also that this experience cannot be taught in school. I have found that most people understand that experience is far more important than education (after all keg-stands and beer bongs bring very little value to a company - unless of course your company sells kegs and beer bongs). Fact is that there is no job on this planet that is not attainable school or not, you just need to be able to convince the other guy that you can do it better than anyone with an attendance sheet from a University.

If you are truly motivated and it is time for a move, hit your resume hard (biggest recommendation here is to cut out the fluff - all of it), start shopping for jobs, and start showing up for interviews (a lower paying job in this economy will pay dividends if you get some experience).

-matt

Re:What degree do you have?

[grolaw]

100% correct. Law Firms are hell holes to work for - and I'm an attorney! You only see the tip of the political iceberg in those operations.

I've represented over a dozen IT professionals out of the banking industry and age discrimination / outsourcing are so common that you might as well learn to speak Hindi.

Find a medium-sized 3'rd party tech support operation - go to school too - but contemplate broadening your skill set beyond pure IT - take a year to go to the Vancouver Film School and earn one of their computer-based degrees (animation, sound recording/transformation) and lateral into the production industry.

Re:What degree do you have?

[ta bu shi da yu]

It really depends on the type of service desk you work at. If you are in a service desk that cares about metrics like time taken on a call, then get out. Now. If you are on a service desk that values root cause analysis and real problem resolution, then stick around and try to get promoted up levels. Most of these service desks have a lot of high value components that are important enough that they'll appreciate you figuring out the actual problem and advising or implementing solutions that prevent further issues in the future.

I work on a service desk for a multi-national corporation supporting one of their software products. However, this software interacts with a lot of cool technologies that make life interesting - directory services, databases, packet analysis, network discovery, etc. There are enough components to the product itself that problems reported can be very interesting to troubleshoot, and I've learned a lot on the job. It also gives me the opportunity to read up on technologies I've never heard of before, or that I'm interested in. I'm fairly certain I'm seen as a reasonably valuable member of the team, so I get a lot of job satisfaction from what I do.

The rule of thumb, IMO, is that if you aren't learning anything new, then you're stagnating and it's probably time to get out of the job.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or programming in their own basement.

Re:What degree do you have?

[xalorous]

Long term, the higher level of education will allow you higher level of responsibility. If you want to do technical work, concentrate on certs and experience. If you ever want to get into management, the masters level degree will be the key to open the door. Of course, the formula now is Degree + certs + experience.

In the U.S., it is hard to get in the door without a B.S. these days. There are so many techs in the system that the leadership positions are almost requiring a Masters to be considered.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Antique Geekmeister]

Oh. You're in the _UK_. Learn Linux: my professional colleague in London is having to beat off recruiters, even in this economy, and they keep trying to hire him for work in Scotland and Geneva as well. The support and systems administration roles available to a someone who can work in a mixed Linux/Windows, or Linux/Windows/Mac environment, are very active as companies try to stretch their finances for new servers and services.

School is great for your resume: but so is experience with fields that are growing and likely to remain in demand.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Xenious]

I program in my parents basement to facilitate a speedy commute to work you insensitive clod! ;)

Re:What degree do you have?

[modmans2ndcoming]

Get yourself into a tech contracting company. You will have better benefits and better options because if you are willing to relocate, opportunities in the company are more available than if you work at a company that in sources their IT.

Re:What degree do you have?

[modmans2ndcoming]

It is hard to get in the door even with the BS especially with software development.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

my professional colleague in London is having to beat off recruiters

Dear god, is that how you get a recruiters attention in the UK? I hope he at least calls you the next morning or sends flowers or something.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

The bottom line is that companies will hire without education, but they will not hire without experience (even someone with education). If you do run into a company that is requiring a degree (specifically). Then the problem is that they do not understand the job well enough to hire someone into it. It is your job at that point to sell yourself to them, show them why they were wrong in requiring a degree by explaining your experience, and also that this experience cannot be taught in school. I have found that most people understand that experience is far more important than education (after all keg-stands and beer bongs bring very little value to a company - unless of course your company sells kegs and beer bongs). Fact is that there is no job on this planet that is not attainable school or not, you just need to be able to convince the other guy that you can do it better than anyone with an attendance sheet from a University. If you are truly motivated and it is time for a move, hit your resume hard (biggest recommendation here is to cut out the fluff - all of it), start shopping for jobs, and start showing up for interviews (a lower paying job in this economy will pay dividends if you get some experience). -matt

so wish I had mod points

Re:What degree do you have?

[Hork_Monkey]

Fact is that there is no job on this planet that is not attainable school or not, you just need to be able to convince the other guy that you can do it better than anyone with an attendance sheet from a University.

That sounds good in theory, but many organizations have job descriptions standards set by Human Resources, not the hiring manager. If the job description states that a degree is required, you'll never even get an interview in that case.

This is coming from someone with 12 years of IT consulting experience, and is finally finishing their degree in September.

Re:What degree do you have?

[DrgnDancer]

like it or not, you got lucky. Lots of companies won't let you by the HR screen without a BS/BA. Ironically I have a degree in History, not CS, but between my experience, my minor in CS and my having gotten through a large chunk of a masters of CS I'm usually OK. Even now 10 years into career though I've been told that my lack of a BSc probably hinders me slightly in shops with big HR hurdles.

Re:What degree do you have?

[jthill]

"Don't ask, what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive, and go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." — Howard Thurman

Don't start, young, on a career that gives you no pleasure. Your mind doesn't naturally gravitate towards what computers can do. You have few enough responsibilities that you can get a little ahead doing work that doesn't require your degree, and you have a whole year's worth of savings. Use those. Something, somewhere, just naturally occupies your thoughts when they'd otherwise be idle; there's something you'd rather be contemplating. For your life: find that.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Saba]

I was good enough at programming to pass the modules, but I never really programmed for pleasure or got involved beyond what was required of me academically. I know that makes me a blasphemer and a poser on here!

Programming is as much to Computer Science as telescopes are to Astronomy.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Bastardchyld]

That sounds good in theory, but many organizations have job descriptions standards set by Human Resources, not the hiring manager. If the job description states that a degree is required, you'll never even get an interview in that case. This is coming from someone with 12 years of IT consulting experience, and is finally finishing their degree in September.

My point is that if you can't convince the HR folks that you are the right person for the job then why should you be able to talk to the Hiring Manager? Besides when was the last time that you saw a job description that did not say "or equivalent experience" right after the degree requirement.

That said a degree is not a bad thing, however if you have 1 year of help desk experience and you think a Masters will fix your career then you are sadly mistaken. Also correct me if I am wrong but if after 12 years of IT consulting experience you plan on getting a degree to do the same job I would think that would be a huge mistake since for a consultant degrees do not add a lot of market value.

As to your original point of if a degree is required then you will never get an interview, this is perhaps true but that assumes that you will be playing by HRs rules for the hiring process, assuming you are more than qualified for the position, a quick conversation with the hiring manager to introduce yourself and explain the situation would be more than enough to get an interview regardless of HRs willingness in most companies.

-matt

Re:What degree do you have?

[b96miata]

Here's the real question - if you hated programming so much, why didn't you switch to a major you liked? You note that many CS majors take your route, but really, it's no excuse. Those people are silly.

That said, if you find you like web development and DBA, my personal opinion is avoid the masters. The MS is *not* going to help you get an entry level position as a web dev or a DBA. You're risking overqualification here. (if you can even find a respectable MS in web development, that is.) A master's degree is not the magic bullet many people considering them think it is. And blowing (30k + living expenses? I don't know what a grad degree goes for in the UK) during questionable economic times on something that may or not pay off isn't a magic switch for your career either. You may find yourself a year or two from now with nothing but a ligher wallet and the same job prospects.

You say you want to make a clean break, do it. Start applying to positions in the field you're interested in, located in another city. Start doing some small projects on your own so you can provide some backup to your desires and prove a bit of competence in an interview. You're going to face a bit of a hurdle having gone School->unrelated job->Helpdesk, but if you can prove an interest in the job and the ability to handle basic related tasks and learn on your feet, you should have a pretty good shot.

Re:What degree do you have?

[vertinox]

Find a medium-sized 3'rd party tech support operation - go to school too - but contemplate broadening your skill set beyond pure IT - take a year to go to the Vancouver Film School and earn one of their computer-based degrees (animation, sound recording/transformation) and lateral into the production industry.

As a person who went to school for computer animation and now works in IT...

Good luck with that!

Really, unless you are doing animation for yourself or live in California, then you're not going to make a living on it.

However, you could learn video and go into taping weddings... There is never a shortage of work for that.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need a Master degree to do web development or data management. Show that you have enough practical experience and you can escape the help desk. Look for master programs that offer practical experience. The University of Waterloo in Canada has co-op work terms or professional internships in their programs.

If you started at the help desk in a computer company it would have been much easier for you to move laterally into another department like QA, build / porting / integration, or IT.

Did you ask a company you want to work for, what they need for qualifications and what is missing from your background ?

I got a Bachelor of Computer Engineering, worked in front line support for 3 years then did Software Engineering for 5. Now I'm back doing support but working with IT people instead of end-users.

Re:What degree do you have?

[cecille]

I don't think the GP said he hated programming. Just that s/he didn't do it outside of school hours. There's a difference between hating something and not being obsessed with it. I mean, I love programming, but it's something I don't often do outside of work hours because when I get home I've already put in a full day with it and I'd rather do something NOT work-like. If I could get paid for playing frisbee I'd do that at work and program at home, but that's not really how things work.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

He beats off recruiters? interesting, didn't know that was a qualification to get a job.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I graduated from a good school with a double major in Computer Science and Russian language. Finally 3 and 1/2 years out of college, I am in actual development position (no where close to 80k per year though). For about 2 years out of school, I had to work crappy Pizza Delivery jobs and invent non-paid projects for myself. I made up an idea for a social networking site and worked on it in my spare. I made sure to base features around the latest buzzwords like .net or ajax. This way I could add them to my resume and not feel like I was lying. I found my way into a temp position at a help desk where I was stuck for another year. It was better than delivering pizzas. While working there I continued looking and eventually found an out of state job through a friend I knew in college. I guess my advice would be donâ(TM)t give up. Im not making bank but I am staying afloat. If you dont already have BS in Computer Science that is a good way to go but you will have to augment with non-formal training to. You will probably want to go to school and spend some time in your parents basement. Keep your resume up to date, post it on sites like monster, and be ready to move if you have to. Its a dismal market out there but dont lower your expectations too much or youll never get anywhere. Just make do with what you have and keep struggling towards what you want.

Re:What degree do you have?

[grayn0de]

School is great for your resume: but so is experience with fields that are growing and likely to remain in demand.

Like INFOSEC!

Seriously though, yes... Try to find what it is you love and learn about any emerging trends/tech/what-have-you revolving around or related to that, then learn as much as you can about it. I work in a small business, supporting about 100 users, so my role in IT is broad (from break-fix to Sysadmin). I feel your pain, but I am actively pursuing knowledge of information security and programming to an extensive degree, including pursuing my BS in Information Security (yes, I only have an AS, ATM.). My point is this: Stick with what you do, as it is a good foundation for what you want to do (IT support provides critical problem-solving and analysis skills) and further your education throughout it all. When you are comfortable in you knowledge of what it is you want to do and your skills revolving around that path, then you will have no problem jumping on you chosen profession. Remember: It may take time, often years, before you land a job that makes you enjoy waking up in the morning, but when you do all the past will be worth it.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Thundermace]

Well....I started out as a Help Desk Monkey myself and am now In global Infrastructure - it's taken a whil eto get there but I can give you a few keys to the kingdom...

First off, never complain about the position you are currently in. When talking to anyone whether inside or outside the company - complaints about your role - devalues your own role therefore it devaules you. To improve your role and to improve the opinions of those around you - only stress the good points of the role and thework you are doing. Also, toot your own horn - if your dealing with difficult probles and you find solutions let it be known YOU did it. Email off the manager and cc: his boss (depending on the type of organization). this will increase your visbility.

Second, look for ways to expand upon your own set of responsibilities. I hate to say it but the people who jump in and start working (not volunteer) are the ones who tendto get lookeda t first in the promotion department. Its shows you have initiative and your willingness to expand upon current sets of responsibilities. You do however, have to make sure you do not neglect your first set of responsibilities and ensure they remain top notch.

Third, Education is always important, however, it really depends on the company and the value they place oneducation beyond the initial hire. An example of this, the current company I work for values your contribution beyond the intial hire and education is only secondary to ability to perform. Performance, experience, and value add are what employers value the most. Any way you can find to stream line or reduce cost to save money (especially to the bottom line)gets you noticed alot faster. I have people who have their masters who I still have to tell how to do their job. But again, Education can never be taken away from you so there is always a value.

Fourth, get diversified. The more diversified your skill set the more valuable you are. If you are getting a masters - get your masters in something other than IT but is complimentary (like some engineering discipline). Gain knowledge in as many programming languages (if you want to program) and / or operating systems as possible. Unless you want to specialize but that limits mobility and pigeon holes you to particular roles. In IT the more diversified you are education and knowledge wise the further you will go and the faster.

Lastly, In even the worst economies the job market is open to those who have the skills and track record of accomplishments to prove it. Keeping notes of projects that save money, increase efficiency, reduce total overall cost, etc...that is what you want toinclude on your resume. Do not emblish and be sure it is verifable in some way. Do not be afraid to search out companies and call them to get your foot into the position you want. Its ok to inquire of companies that do not have direct posting's because some companies do not necessarily list them. But again it is the persistance at which you pursue your endevours that is going to make you attractive to employers.

So like other posters have said, clearly define what you are seeking and begin to expand yourself in those ways. Also, be careful what you ask for because you may just get it - and - that is not always what you think. One last piece of advice - remember money is not everything - find something you love to do and do it exceptionally because when you do - the money will follow.

Good Luck

Re:What degree do you have?

[DuckDodgers]

10 years ago:
Kid: "Hi, I want a job writing software!"
Manager: "Tell me what you know about writing software."
Kid: "I saw some C++ code in a textbook once!"
Manager: "Will you accept $80,000 and start tomorrow?"

Today:
Applicant: "Hi, I want a job writing software!"
Manager: "Tell me what you know about writing software."
Applicant: "I have a bachelor of science degree in math with a minor in computer science. I've written 10,000 lines of code in widespread use in an open source project. I've written my own cell phone operating system. I've written 4 applications in the iPhone store. I'm a contributor on the specifications for C++0x."
Manager: "We're sorry, you are woefully underqualified for this junior position. We're looking for someone with ten times as much experience and a master's degree, and we will offer them $35,000 per year."

I'm genuinely happy for you and your success. But I'm guessing you got your start during the dot com boom or something similar. I love developing software, I can't believe I get paid money to do something this interesting. But the opportunities for a self taught person to break in to the industry, as far as I can tell, are tremendously fewer now than in the past.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in a large law firm as a network engineer. The politics is bad but you can still vent behind the scenes. I started as a phone jockey too. I worked my way up as I proved abilities and people left. The economy sucks now so finding any where to go and the chance for moving up will be limited. Law firm people (IT, lawyers, paralegals, other admin etc..) move around from firm to firm A LOT. As this happens you will meet other people and establish other relationships that will help you make it up the ladder.
Another thing to consider is look for all of the free seminars, product roll out demos and "roadshows" you can find in your area and sign up for them. Sure, they are very sales based and you might not learn the technical part of the products but you will meet other people in your field in your area and you will get a free lunch and some parting gifts. Most employers allow even the phone jockies to go because they are free. HP/Dell/VMWare/Citrix and the storage companies have these in bigger cities all of the time.

Re:What degree do you have?

[nightstar007]

As on offshoot if you do learn animation / sound recording and the such, you can go into the video game industry as well. Its hard to break into, and you actually have to be quite good at animation and very creative. If you can do that though, I think it could be a very fun atmosphere to work in (minus the likely long hours) Similar issue that the other post near this points out though, is that most video game jobs are also in California, though smaller companies exist all over the US and the world.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Gizzmonic]

It's great for us! We thank you for your sacrifice!

Signed, Higher Education and the Rest of the Workforce.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Niris]

A masters by 22? How're you figuring someone can pull that off? Just getting all your GE and the sequential CS classes at a California State University (guessing you're figuring from California, since you mention the Bay Area) requires four years, let alone the two more for a masters. You're even more likely to face five years going for the bachelors with their current system.

Re:What degree do you have?

[coolmoose25]

You reminded me of a problem I had at work... My computer account would get locked out every time I rebooted my laptop and tried to log in. I didn't give it too much thought (I'm a developer) and so I called the help desk each time it happened. They would unlock my account and on I'd go. Well, I finally got tired of this (didn't happen every day, as I started locking my desktop at night and skipped the daily reboot and login). I escalated it. Nobody could help me. At least 4 local help desk people couldn't figure it out. We swapped out docking stations. We checked profiles and permissions. Long story short, the final escalation was to re-image my laptop. I politely declined and investigated myself.

I quickly figured out that I had some services that were not started but were set to start automatically. Then I found out that they logged in with my local account. So it was these services on boot up that were sending bogus passwords and locking my account out. After the reboot, and an account unlock, everything would work.

Since I obviously didn't NEED the services (hey, they hadn't run in months...), I set them to manual start, and the problem went away.

Here's the upshot. I saw all 4 help desk guys in the elevator shortly after fixing the problem. I said, "Hey guys - I figured out my account lockout problem"... They said "Good for you!" and the got off at the next floor. Not one of them asked me what the problem was. Later I saw them again, and I said "Hey, you know it wasn't lost on me that none of you ASKED ME WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS OR HOW TO FIX IT..." They all laughed and got off the elevator again, without asking the question...

We recently outsourced our Help Desk. All these guys had to re-interview for their jobs. Most got rehired, but at MUCH lower salaries. I shed no tears for them.

Re:What degree do you have?

[somersault]

Something, somewhere, just naturally occupies your thoughts when they'd otherwise be idle; there's something you'd rather be contemplating. For your life: find that.

But we can't all be professional sun-tan lotion applicators for hot Brazilian models!

Re:What degree do you have?

[Bigjeff5]

I second this advice. Do what you love. If you love what you do, you will be passionate about it and continually strive to improve. This is HUGE for employers, good ones that can see past next quarter's earnings anyway. What you love to do needs to be useful to an employer, but the bottom line is if you love it you will be good at it. If you are good at it you will progress in your career.

It sounds like you're smart but have a very general degree. This is not a problem, but you should start getting some professional certifications - Microsoft, Cisco, what have you. This will do two things for you: it will help you decide what you like to do and what you don't, as they all require a good deal of study to pass, and they look really good on a resume. What certifications you put down will help focus the employer's attention on what you are capable of, as well as provide them with a baseline.

In truth, you should have started in helpdesk while you were still in school. Helpdesk positions are not the best place for breaking into the rest of the market any more (they used to be great for that, not so much now), but given enough time something might turn up.

I would stick with your current job, but work on those certs, and be constantly searching for an entry-level sysadmin or unix admin (very rare, but huge potential if you can get it!) position. Or, once you have some cableing/cisco (sorry, they've got the most widely transferable certs even if you don't like them) certifications you should be able to break into the entry level physical network market.

Valuable things to take away from your helpdesk position are customer relations, troubleshooting skills, and general industry familiarity.

Oh yeah, and make sure your writing and communications skills are up to par. Chances are non-techs will need to read and understand something you write at some point, and sucky writing can be a career limiter.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

The smart people often end up programming in their parents basement.

Hey, the only reason you said this is because you know that this will earn you good modding by smart /.ers ...

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course some will just see you kissing ass and write you off.

Re:What degree do you have?

[spasm]

Like a lot of other posters, I'd also encourage more education as a basic good thing for long term career advancement and job satisfaction.

One of the differences between your undergraduate degree and a graduate degree such as a masters is the university will generally be willing to take more time to answer questions you have about the degree, such as ``where have recent graduates from this program ended up working? Can I talk to some of them?'' While they'll probably point you to some people who did well out of it, those people will often be willing to tell you something about how others who did the course with them are doing, and whether they feel the jobs they got are pretty normal for those who did the program or if they were unusually lucky or had other experience/skills which helped them get the position above and beyond the masters itself. The other thing you'll find is you get a gut feeling about whether the kind of work they describe doing sounds like a good fit or a bad fit for you. Shop around - masters programs from different universities tend to be different from one another, and the experience you get from one will often be quite different from the experience you get from another, even if they superficially look the same on paper. It's worth finding one that will prepare you for work that you'd actually want to do.

Good luck.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm having a hard time understanding how someone with a CS or Software Engineering degree could end up in your position though. (Maybe I'm ignorant...)

I will give you the answer; the companies that hire BSc graduates in "IT" tend to be call centers and help desk type companies. In the 1990s you could go straight out of college and land an 80K per year job. These days you are lucky to land a help desk job. Of course the more successful people will have embellished their experiences on their resumes and with their references. The smart people often end up programming in their parents basement.

So true

Re:What degree do you have?

[tristanreid]

Of course some will just see you kissing ass and write you off.

Yeah, much better to be aloof and not to care about your job. When someone is working for me, I hate it when they act pleasant, or try to do their jobs better. Bunch of political ass-kissers. I prefer the 'cool' guys who are quiet except when they are complaining about the impossibility of doing their job. Those guys really keep it real.

-t.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

I tend to find that a company that only hires based on the applicants education or degree doesn't have much of a brain. I know quite a lot of people who have gone to school most of their life and have masters, however they have gotten no where in life, and if they do make any extra money, it has to go to paying off their student loans. I also know many people who have never stepped foot in a classroom after high school and are very successful in what they do and run their own businesses.

While schooling may be needed in some careers such as in the medical fields, I find that in the IT industry this is not required. When I go to hire a new employee, I'm looking at what they are able to do, if they need to strengthen on some areas, then I'll help them through experience.

It's just not worth it, you will learn more through self teaching yourself at home by playing around with what you are interested in.

Re:What degree do you have?

[unlametheweak]

When someone is working for me, I hate it when they act pleasant, or try to do their jobs better. Bunch of political ass-kissers. I prefer the 'cool' guys who are quiet except when they are complaining about the impossibility of doing their job. Those guys really keep it real.

I completely agree (even though you do sound like an asshole and a Troll). It is the quiet ones who work the hardest, and it is generally the people who are visibly dissatisfied with their work (environment) who are the most efficient and productive. I was very disappointed when the GGP got modded up so high. I personally would have down-modded the post and up-modded the AC post (observing the negative aspects of ass-kissing) as being Insightful. Unfortunately there are too many (the vast majority of) bad and incompetent Managers out there who promote based on socialization skills like gossip and ass-kissing rather than good work. I certainly hope you are not a Manager.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Son of Gehenus]

XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more. Thats Beautiful. /nothing

Re:What degree do you have?

[root_cause_analysis]

Don't know that I agree with the external helpdesk "firewall". I've only managed one external support helpdesk, but at that company it wasn't unusual to lose our best techs to other departments. The key being that the tech developed great relationships with the external companies through their tech support. Plus they gained extremely detailed knowledge of the software products and the business models of their clients. Therefore, when other departments needed a well-trained business support manager, the looked at the top performers in my department first because those guys already had an established relationship with their customers. About 30% of our helpdesk techs moved up to mid-level management positions.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

No. I have a BSc. in CS. I landed a lot of monkey jobs prior to finishing university, and some after were not much better. I gave it all up after a few years. Same money, less stress, and I enjoy computers again. I could out-program anyone in my university. The labs were all a joke (I could knock them off in about 20 minutes, and never got less than 95% on any of them). But never programmed in industry. Not that I couldn't or didn't try, but no, I have no experience in that! Sonofabitch! Don't say 'oh, you have a BSc. how is it you only have a monkey job? No! Sometimes, all you get is crap! Either move 3000 miles away, or get out while sane.

Re:What degree do you have?

[cowbutt]

My career path after graduating with BSc in Comp Sci was a PC support technician for a University central IT department, to a junior pre-/post-sales tech at a small Value-Added Reseller specialising in Linux/network security/backup solutions, to the first line support desk of a computer security products VAR/distributor, onwards through second and third line and ending up as a member of their vulnerability assessment/penetration testing team.

I'd suggest that your next step is to go from doing IT for a non-IT specialist organisation, to doing so at a larger scale (e.g. a university or college, or a multinational), or even better, to join the help desk of an IT specialist organisation (e.g. ISP, manufacturer/software house, reseller). If you have a choice, pick something that'll give you exposure to lots of products and technologies, rather than just a handful.

Assuming you're planning on staying in the UK, I'm not sure a further qualification in Computing is useful, unless you're planning for a career in academia. You might want to look into alternatives that could 'flavour' an IT career and give you a background of the business you'd like to work in (e.g. Physics, Chemistry, Engineering, Law, Maths, Music)

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

Graduated in 2002 with an associates in specialized tech - Computer Programming.

That's the crap-tastic title they gave on a piece of -very- expensive, but otherwise totally worthless paper. I had a goddamn near impossible time getting my resume past the trash can (on the way to the inbox) out of school. I was willing to move wherever to do what I wanted, (location be damned -- I'll move if it gives me an opportunity I can't get elsewhere) and ended up in Mississippi. I thought I was going to be raped by 'river folk', but it was a real job, doing programming. I'd done helldesk before I went to tech school -- I wasn't graduating from there to take a position doing exactly the same damn thing I did before I went. What a waste that would have been. So I moved to MS for a four-week contract that if extended would allow me to 46k gross a year, in early 2003, with an associates degree. (Granted, I've been coding in one way or another since first grade). Yeah, 4 week contract.

I Spent 2.5 years in MS programming. Went from contract to full-time (took a 21% pay cut to do it and stick around another year). Got new job and moved to Indiana working for a small consulting company -- for 50k/year. A year and a half later, jumped to another small consulting firm in town, nearly doubled my income, work for a place that actually values what I do and what I know, and actually like where I work.

It's been a bit of a road to get here. I'll be the first to admit I've made mistakes along the way, but the underlying themes I've learned through all this are:

Do NOT back away from opportunity. Be WILLING to do what's necessary. (Be Jack Bauer) You have no one to blame for your situation but yourself. How long will you beat yourself up over that? How long will you let others beat you up as well?

If you can learn, and you're motivated, only you can stop you. What's holding you back? Is it fear? Is it comfort? Is it a lack of being able to take a risk?

I like to think I'm one of the smart people. I'm not in my parents basement. I've done it. I'm pulling 90k/year on an _ASSOCIATES_ degree. I work with a guy who used to be a fucking MEATCUTTER and he's one of the best I've ever had the pleasure of working with. He's now got a BSc, but this brings me to my second point.

People just want to see a _degree_. They don't normally care what it is, what it's in, etc. A diploma is not a badge of what you know, or what you're capable of. It's a declaration of how much inane bullshit you're willing to go through to get something you want. It's a sign of how much useless abuse you'll accept in the name of doing something you think you're supposed to do. It's a sheep-o-meter. The more degrees, the more willing someone is to take a shot in the ass or mouth as an employee. That's why people want degrees.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Dexx]

Have to agree - I came out with my BSc in CS just as the dot-com boom went bust. Did helpdesk for 3 years while I worked on volunteer programming projects and donated web development time to non-profit grops in the area. After taking the risk and moving to another province I landed my first programming job - writing a new ticketing system for a helpdesk.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

None!... but i'm getting lots of experience!.. and i'm not answering phones front line anymore.. What you need to have is a love of finding real solutions to problems, and the ability to implement them smoothly. If there is a problem, such an application locking up over and over, that is generating lots of irritations to your leisure time on the job, you could spend a little time researching a permanent fix. Yes, i'm sure there are "admins" who are supposed to take care of that.. but maybe you could generate a well written email instructing people on details to working around their problem for now, while you urge the software developers to provide a fix.. you could even spend time generating "extra good" log files to really pinpoint the cause of the failure. This is the kind of team work, and dedication that will get you recognized in the workplace. Plus it makes your life much much easier, and users are happy too! If there is no where to move up, or no salary worth the trouble, spend your time supporting small businesses. You'll gain a ton of experience in a broad range of topics, and hopefully some recommendation letters, or job opportunities worth looking into. I started as an installer/helpdesk support, and now i'm a admin/solution developer. All day long i get to fix peoples problems, and help make them smarter IT people.. It's a blast.

Re:What degree do you have?

[Whatchamacallit]

Bingo! It's not the tech knowledge that is most important. That's not to say you don't need the technical knowledge, you obviously, need to keep up your technical skills. However, it's the people and communication skills that are most valued. Can you communicate with difficult people, do you have endless patience, are you willing to follow up as well as being proactive?

I've worked in technical support for over a decade. Many people tried working in this fast paced environment and soon found they were not cut out for it. Endless patience is key as well as not letting yourself get frustrated. Even in the most stressful of situations, I can remain calm and collected.

You need to be able to calm a frustrated user and then earn their trust. You do this by never losing your cool and always keeping your word. Honor and integrity as well as a friendly attitude go a long long way. Follow up after resolution or work around and even a drive by "hello, how are things going?" helps to build a relationship.

Transitioning from help desk to second or third tier support or other lateral support groups with a higher profile will advance your career. Educating yourself for a role in programming or engineering is another possible direction. I would avoid educational trainer roles because they are the first to be cut in a down market. I would also avoid management as that is extremely dangerous, middle management is frequently re-organized and people are cut loose all the time. You have to be very political for management roles.

There are opportunities out there for getting out of the help desk and many large companies who previously outsourced parts of their IT learned some painful lessons and they are now starting to rebuild that which they sold off.

Learn the corporate culture and do everything you can to raise your profile in solving big problems. Befriend those who can help you.

Re:What degree do you have?

[pnutjam]

AS, worked my way up from helpdesk to Network Admin. Aim for medium companies, larger 100+ server companies want a BS, but don't really pay more.

I jumped from helpdesk to field tech to Network Admin. That first Network Admin job will probably be at a relatively small company, under 10 servers. Do a damn good job and move on after a year or so, repeat with slightly larger companies.

Another good options is to aim for contract work 6 month here, a year there. It helps you make industry contacts and if you do good work you will be noticed.

Re:What degree do you have?

[grolaw]

Written English skills would be an adjunct to your success.

And, your sig is offensive, ignorant and just plain selfish, too. Die young - I don't want to pay for your single-payer health plan.

Re:What degree do you have?

[pnutjam]

offensive, yes,
selfish, probably
ignorant, no
It's "an inconvenient truth", the days of retire at 65 are over for most people. Only the top 5% or so can really manage that.

I think you are complementing my writing ability? If so, thanks, if not...

Re:What degree do you have?

[pnutjam]

oh yeah, I've been trolling with that sig forever, didn't think anyone noticed it?

hmmm...

[GooDieZ]

You Sir, have some serious issues...

Typo in summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

But probably not.

Re:Typo in summary?

[fractoid]

You've never worked helpdesk, have you?

It's not that bad, just stick with it!

[Bodhammer]

I've noticed that most people are getting smarter, understand technology, privacy, business, free enterprise, propoganda, and are becoming less reliant on help desks, friends, church groups, retailers, and especially the government for help.

Just stick with it, I'm sure it will get better! How bad can it really be, they are just lawyers?

Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!

[besalope]

I've noticed that most people are getting smarter, understand technology, privacy, business, free enterprise, propoganda, and are becoming less reliant on help desks, friends, church groups, retailers, and especially the government for help.

Just stick with it, I'm sure it will get better! How bad can it really be, they are just lawyers?

That's definitely not the case here in Michigan, there's still a ton of stupid people in mixed into the general public.

Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!

[Tokerat]

WHOOOOOOOSH!

Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!

[dangitman]

That's definitely not the case here in Michigan, there's still a ton of stupid people in mixed into the general public.

Thanks for proving that by providing primary evidence!

Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont know where you live but knowing how to use a tool and debugging it are quite different, you can train a monkey to use a dvd player, does not mean it understands it.

Young people know more about HOW TO, but still dont get HOW IT WORKS or HOW to fix it.

I work in a place where we support 1700 users, some users know how to install and setup crapy apps but they cant figure out why, suddenly, it does not work anymore, that's where IT comes in.

help desk will never disapear because human beings will always be lazy to understand thing they dont normally have to work with, they want the easy fix

Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!

[OhHellWithIt]

How bad can it really be, they are just lawyers?

Lawyers aren't the worst, but they're certainly a challenge. Supporting lawyers, you have really smart people who spend all their time studying the intricacies of legal documents and the law, who generally have way more stuff to read than they have time for. The last thing they want to do is learn to understand how computers work. I know whereof I speak, because I worked for two years in IT litigation support, mostly writing how-to documentation.

To the original poster, my advice is to keep working your day job and pick up computer skills in evening classes and personal reading/experimentation. A computer science degree is useful the first couple of years, but as you accumulate experience, you'll find the degree is less of an issue.

Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've noticed that most people are getting smarter, understand technology, privacy, business, free enterprise, propoganda, and are becoming less reliant on help desks, friends, church groups, retailers, and especially the government for help.

Just stick with it, I'm sure it will get better! How bad can it really be, they are just lawyers?

Smart? Understanding technology? Man, I need to come work for your company! :)

Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!

[bioneuralnet]

Yes, I expect my end users will soon be patching software themselves. Time to start looking for a new profession...

Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!

[MrChom]

If that wasn't funny it would be very very sad.

I work in schools IT, and let me tell you there's little to no improvement, just more and more people getting way out of their depth and not bothering to train to cover the gap. Instead it's front line support who has to pick up the slack and beat the solution into people.

Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!

[Niris]

I love how this is modded flamebait. It's really only flamebait if you're stuck in the mindset of thinking "omg he mentioned politicians being wrong, he MUST be talking about so-and-so!" If you get the political chip off your shoulder, it's more of an insightful post.

Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!

[NotQuiteReal]

Yup - works as flamebait either way in the USA - for stupid Bush voters AND idiot Obama voters.

It was an on-sub-topic reply, even if the sub-topic was veering off-topic, if you catch my drift.

I also didn't mention thoughtful voters who voted whichever way, nor voters who voted knee-jerk for their party, whilst holding their noses...

I am apathetically aware of my excellent karma, so, no worries.

That is your job.

[DerekLyons]

" I'd like to remain in IT, but in less of a front-line role where I can actually get some work done without being interrupted every five minutes by a jamming printer or frozen instance of Outlook."

Um. If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job. Your work isn't being interrupted every five minutes, but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.

IT is a support function, deal with it or find a different career field.

Re:That is your job.

[dword]

Yes, being interrupted while reading from / posting to Slashdot is just awful!

Re:That is your job.

[wind_ice_flames]

There is a difference in being in IT and doing one specific aspect of IT called help desk. I can relate. The poster is seems to be tired of dealing with the same thing over and over from people who make the same mistakes. IT is a much broader field than just help desk.

Re:That is your job.

[calmofthestorm]

You can also get pinned down by URGENT FIX THIS issues to the point that you can't make substantial upgrades to improve the overall situation. For example, so busy removing viruses you can't deploy more effective means to fight them in general.

Re:That is your job.

[heychris]

Um. If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job. Your work isn't being interrupted every five minutes, but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.

To be fair, in a 200 person shop, he may also be expected to do sysadmin duties as well as helpdesk. It tends to get lumped together a lot. But even as a sysadmin, your job is ultimately to serve the company and it's clients, and in a small to midsize company, that means rebooting the boss' PC every now and then. Try to take pride in the fact that you tangibly made his life slightly better.

My role in a similarly sized company is basically sysadmin without the title, so I feel for you. There are days I'd love to play with the tech and roll out cool things, and it does get annoying to handle the level 2 stuff (fortunately, I have a part-time helpdesk guy for the basics).

One tip would be to get an intern, and dump some of the support tickets on them. Honestly, I'm not sure how viable a solution that is (I'd be eager to hear others experiences), because I don't know if a CS person will want an internship like that. But maybe someone from a business background would be intrigued; you likely touch every part of the business, and there could be appeal there.

If you're interested in web development, heck, just do it! Do your own site. Do your friends' sites, though set some clear boundaries. This will get you estimating experience, and you can play with whatever strikes your fancy. Then hit up some local small businesses and do their sites. Use that experience to get your next job. A CS Masters seems like overkill for web development. I can't say I know one, but then again, see my second paragraph. :) I do know many web folk without masters, though.

The last thing I'd suggest is to get yourself involved on larger projects in the company. I don't always think to ask my helpdesk guy to help out, but I'm glad when he volunteers. This is a way to learn the tech, the business, and all those fuzzy skills that we don't think should matter but really, really do.

HTH,
CC

Re:That is your job.

[Fluffeh]

IT is a support function, yes, but that's not to say that all IT people keep getting calls every five minutes when someone can't print an email.

I would go as far as to say that the folks we have here on the IT helpdesk are very tech un-savvy. They follow simple flowcharts to get resolutions and do very little actual IT work. I also work in a 200,000 employee company at the head office which has 4,000 staffers. I would say that to get into the IT field, you need to either jump out into a side role and get yourself known, make friends with developers (if you have them in-house) or simply look to maybe even join a helpdesk in a larger firm.

Having said that, I don't really see why you cannot study while being at the helpdesk. It's not a stressful role, you answer calls, you help people with stupid things when they are clueless. Yes, it's numbing, yes it's boring - and it's perfect to use as a job while studying for something else or learning things on the side.

Not to be rude, but be prepared for a LOT more stress than a helpdesk if you do get seriously into the IT field. Developers are ALWAYS being pushed for quicker and cheaper developments, project managers get sizings and then shave off time for an action if it doesn't fit into the time constraints - and I ain't even going to start on the business users and what you will have to do for them during the warranty phase of developments when they start changing requirements left right and center.

Re:That is your job.

[uptownguy]

IT is a support function, deal with it or find a different career field.

10. This
20. Goto 10

Seriously, having spent 15+ years in IT in one role or another (helpdesk, helpdesk manager, helpdesk product manager, presales support, operations manager, consultant) I've seen my fair share of things. I've been on top of the world and on top of my game. I've been burnt out and taken a year off to work in a coffee shop (best thing I ever did, by the way.) I've hired hundreds of support techs. And as I am sitting in a hotel room 1000 miles from home, have a raging case of insomnia and am feeling a little philosophical tonight, I have a word or wisdom or two that I want to share.

First of all: Why do you "want to remain in IT"? Is it because you enjoy technology? If that's the case, perhaps you should consider a different field? There's no law that says you have to make your hobby your job. In fact, you run the risk of spoiling the joy that drew you to it in the first place. If you are in technology because you love playing with what's new, keep reading Slashdot and buy the toys that interest you. Then go discover what you want to do with your life and do that.

Secondly: What do you want to do with your life? Does it involve serving other people? If it does: congratulations! IT is all about service. Seriously. Whether you are designing an application or supporting 200 lawyers/support staff, you are there to serve. You could get all gross and use old-fashioned phrases such as "cost center" or you could get all fancy and start to see the service you do as part of a larger path. This book changed some of my thinking on that.. Either way, you can't escape the fact: IT is about service. Secret hint: Once you get this, you start to love your job.

Thirdly: Have you ever really thought about what you want to do with your life? I mean really thought about it? If not, perhaps you should take a year off and do something completely random. You talked about "moving back home" as an option which means you probably don't have a spouse/kids which means that you have the freedom to do something bold. Try something completely different. Work with your hands. I took a year off and worked in a coffee shop. It did wonders for my work ethic and sense of what service really is. (It also reminded me of what it is like to really make next to nothing.) Working with your hands is satisfying. You might just enjoy it more than you thought. This article in last month's New York Times makes the case for working with your hands. You should read it. Really.

Fourthly: Is it about the money? Be honest with yourself. Are you in IT because of the money? OK. In this field, we make more than people with equivalent amounts of education might make. At least a little more. For now. That probably won't last forever. But are you wanting to move into "databases" or "web development" because you think there will be more money there? Maybe if this was 1996 that would be true. Yes, there is still money to be made there. If you are talented and willing to work hard and be passionate about what you do. But that's sort of true of anything. A little luck and a lot of passion go a long way. (Or is it a lot of luck and a little passion?)

Finally: Relax. Unless you are extremely fortunate, you have no idea what you are going to do with the rest of your life. Few of us do. You'll bounce around and external situations and circumstances will dictate most of it. New inventions. Sick parents. A spouse or child who changes your perspective. Wars. Epidemics. The unknown. Who knows what will happen next? Stop thinking so much. Enjoy the ride. If you feel stuck, listen to yourself. Learn to listen to yourself. Ask yourself what you really want to

Re:That is your job.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fixing things never bothered me, its the idiots that try to fix it themselves, and just make the problem worse, and the questions that never should have been asked, because they should have been covered in training. And I could never forgive myself if I actually had to help a lawyer!

If it weren't for lawyers, we wouldn't need lawyers! Think about it...

Re:That is your job.

[Opportunist]

Depends on your job.

More and more companies don't employ a full time helpdesk. Usually you're expected to do something "on the side", be it installations or even making strategic decisions. The smaller the company, the higher the chance that you won't be a full time computer monkey.

Now, as everyone who ever wrote a line of code will know, nothing kills your concentration more than a phone call. Well, except maybe your computer catching fire.

Re:That is your job.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. That's why we adopted ITIL and set up a real IT group.

That last "critical" ticket seemed like more of a "low" anyway...

Re:That is your job.

[mtremsal]

That was a good read. Thanks a lot.

I am at the point where I have to chose a working field and my studies give me a broad range of choices.

I love IT, have studied it both for my studies and on my free time. I never considered doing anything else ... until recently.
Like you've said, because I enjoy technology and love programming doesn't mean I *have* to work in IT.
More precisely, I don't feel like it's a field where I could stay a nice guy for too long.
And I don't want to become a BOFH (or similar).

Yet, chosing not to work in IT is a much difficult choice because it means finding another field in which I could enjoy my working life...

Reading your optimistic answer helped me. Thanks.

PS : Hope this post doesn't look too stupidly emo. ^^

Re:That is your job.

[Anonymous Coward]

And as I am sitting in a hotel room 1000 miles from home, have a raging case of insomnia and am feeling a little philosophical tonight, I have a word or wisdom or two that I want to share.

Thirdly: Have you ever really thought about what you want to do with your life? I mean really thought about it?

Who knows what will happen next? Stop thinking so much. Enjoy the ride.

I think it's time you popped down to the chemist for some ProSom.

Re:That is your job.

[Mishotaki]

thanks for pointing out that article in the NYtimes, it was a great read

Re:That is your job.

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Uhhmm... What job isn't about service?

Re:That is your job.

[Anonymous Coward]

Great post, thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Re:That is your job.

[BOFHelsinki]

10. This
20. Goto 10
30. COME FROM 10
40. PLEASE
50. Find a gubmint shop with mainframes and convince them that INTERCAL is close kin to COBOL
60. Politely request a six digit salary for rare developer skill set

(No really, a great post, uptownguy!)

Re:That is your job.

[bitspotter]

I never understood why this is supposedly frustrating. In short, ineffectiveness is job security. I remember having a self-drawn roadmap at my last job. Every time I'd be called down for must-do sales support quick fix project, I would tell them how much time this would take off of accomplishing my larger projects. I t was all the same to me, just as long as nobody could blame me for missing deadlines I wasn't allowed to abide by.

Eight hours is eight hours. If I'm not the one prioritizing my projects, I'm not going to sweat the results of those priorities.

Re:That is your job.

[Anonymous Coward]

>Secondly: What do you want to do with your life?

You make some great points, but I disagree with this. This is baby-boomer baloney. It's rationalizing selfishness. There's no harm in it if "what you want to do with your life" is something worthwhile or even noble. But for most people, it's just a code word from socially acceptable narcissism. Me me me, is what it breaks down to.

But you give a lot of very heart-felt advice, most of it good. That's a nice thing to do for a guy who seems to be at his wits end at work.

Take pride in your work, even if it sucks. Not everyone get to customize their career to their exact liking. It's not important. Look everyday for problems at work that need to be solved, and in between calls come up with a way to solve them _permanantly_ -- as in, the problem never ever happens again or if it does we run this shell script from menu option 3 and poof it's fixed as if by magic. If you steadily work towards long-term solutions, not just putting out fires as they light, then the work gets easier and morale may even improve among the users.

I can relate to your frustration though. I worked at a place that fixed everything manually, did no scripting or automation, and never seriously did preventitive measures to head problems off before they start. That got old. I never figured out how to improve things, sadly. But if I had a chance to do it all over, I'd work harder on my own conduct, my own skills & expertise, and really buckle down on doing a 1st-rate job, even if the work situation wasn't 100% to my liking. Let me tell you, it never will be. There's always something wrong, otherwise there'd be nothing to fix!

Re:That is your job.

[mjwx]

Your post made me think.

I'm hating going to work each day for a little while now. It's not that I don't like it really, I like parts of my job, but I don't like dealing with the ingrates who look down on IT services. The good people understand that they cant do my job (and I cant do theirs) so we don't get in each others way, have respect for each other and just get along but there is about 30% of my co-workers that make me dread getting up in the morning because they are just arseholes who refuse to listen and expect me to make everything better.

I work in a smaller company so I do T1/T2 support and 1/2 the sysadmin work (exchange server, firewall, AV and content management and so on) so I'm not simply a helldesk monkey. What I'd like to do is continue to move up along the sysadmin path, eliminate the T1 support and probably 1/2 of the T2 support. Preferably I'd like to concentrate in Linux/Unix environments (not Mac, that is one of my biggest nightmares in T1 support, Mac's tend to attract the most illiterate of users and the biggest superiority complexes). What advice to people have for continuing down this path? useful skills to pick up? Joining/attending a LUG? Any advice is welcome.

Re:That is your job.

[calmofthestorm]

I guess I just care more about doing the best job I can than job security.

But I'm guessing you have a job, and I'm unemployed, so there you go;)

Re:That is your job.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the job of the helpdesk to evaluate future tools to elevate problems (even if they are the most qualified)...that's the IT managers job while he sits on his ass and sez yes to every little, f'in support task request that comes his way to give to his helpdesk flunkies.

Since when do I do blackberry support? I DON'T EVEN HAVE A FREAKIN BLACKBERRY!

Yes, I too was a helldesk flunky. Then I wised up and started my own computer consulting company.

Re:That is your job.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi,

Having reached a similar point in my life as the writer, I've found your remark very helpfull.

I already tried a lot of things in my career... Personally, I like explaining, discovering things and being 'active' , that's why, after a number of years working as a programmer, I became educator (enjoyed it very much) but the low wage and uncertainty of high-school teaching made me leave for a steady job in IT Support.

The "Reason" why? I thought of 'teaching' and 'IT support' as a 'service' to people -but something is different: in IT support , you're more an outsider the the caller's problem. They'll probably get to know you, but you rarely get to know them. You're job stays 'problem solving'.
    In teaching, you get more feedback and you'll integrate more in a community. Teaching is also a good way to get to know yourself, if you're willing to let your guard down.

That's the reason for me to go back to teaching, despite the wage and uncertainty.

Re:That is your job.

[Futil3]

Wish I had mod points. Thanks for your insights.

Re:That is your job.

[moonbender]

One tip would be to get an intern, and dump some of the support tickets on them. Honestly, I'm not sure how viable a solution that is.

Not very viable if you call it an internship, which it isn't. Very viable if you call it a side job for a teenager with technical experience. Paper route for the geek. I did something like that when I was like 17. Can't say it gave me a lot of useful experience -- really, none, apart from dealing with working environments -- but I sure could use the money. Of course that assumes people don't mind being helped by a snotty brat, but particularly those in management (read: old timers) are pretty much used to young people running circles around them when it comes to computers.

That said, even as a snotty brat I resented having to do super menial tasks like refilling paper trays...

Re:That is your job.

[Anonymous Coward]

I love that post.

Re:That is your job.

[Kashgarinn]

You forgot to start this with:
>If I could offer you only one tip for the future, sunscreen would be it. The long term benefits of sunscreen have been proved by scientists whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience

and end it with:
>But trust me on the sunscreen...

Otherwise.. a nice post ;P

I'm in the same helpdesk hell situation.. it's been a real turnoff for advancing further into IT and I'm doing evening classes in something completely different (whether something comes out of it, no idea). It is a dull, but safe job.. you're not going to get fired if you can stick out the first couple of months, and it is quite regular so you do have time for other interests. It's a wonderful platform for taking the next step, but it's a horrible career choice as it's soul-suckingly dull, repetitive and the bureaucracy... I can't go on without increasing stress levels, so I wont.

Re:That is your job.

[L4t3r4lu5]

Job security is a double edged sword.

On one hand, you're doing a great job, so you get to keep your job in times of adversity. On the other, you do such a good job that the company can't afford to promote you out of the area.

Re:That is your job.

[Niet3sche]

There are days I'd love to play with the tech and roll out cool things, and it does get annoying to handle the level 2 stuff (fortunately, I have a part-time helpdesk guy for the basics).

One tip would be to get an intern, and dump some of the support tickets on them. Honestly, I'm not sure how viable a solution that is (I'd be eager to hear others experiences), because I don't know if a CS person will want an internship like that. But maybe someone from a business background would be intrigued; you likely touch every part of the business, and there could be appeal there.

You have a PFY and you are advocating same.

I'm sure that Simon would be touched; BOFH continues to live on and be relevant nearly 15 years after being released on the World Wide Web.

Re:That is your job.

[BotnetZombie]

That's one way of thinking.
I aim to make myself redundant so I don't get stuck doing the same things over and over. If you're valued, you will get new interesting stuff instead of repeated boredom.
I'm a programmer, but I guess I'd be doing the same if it was some admin or helpdesk job.

Re:That is your job.

[L4t3r4lu5]

Politician.

Re:That is your job.

[4e617474]

Um. If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job. Your work isn't being interrupted every five minutes, but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.

There are as many different sets of roles for helpdesk employee as there are helpdesks. I work at a helpdesk and it is very much an interruption to my job if someone comes to me with any of the more mundane issues the desk as a whole handles. Analyzing trouble tickets for trend analysis, developing workarounds to new defects, trying to automate those workarounds so that we don't have 800 sites all calling us about the same thing, updating the knowledge base, evaluating new hardware and software releases (yes, it's some other department's job to do that first, but they like to bury things in 50-page release notes where people have to call the helpdesk to accomplish something basic, forgetting that that's the short definition of "defect"), writing database front-ends so that we don't have to have the frontline poking around in places we'd rather they wouldn't, and I can't even begin to describe the variety of conference calls I manage to get roped into. Even in the frontline of a generic helpdesk at a non-technology outfit he could easily have one set of responsibilities that involves someone running up to him and telling him to drop everything, and another that involves having something engaging, stimulating, and remotely resembling why he got into technology in the first place that he's being asked to drop. Oh, and RTF summary again - do you really think that web developers, dba's, and database architects get asked literally every five minutes to handle something stupid and boring without ever getting a few hours to sink their teeth into a task?

IT is a support function

Um, no. The people who design and implement the things that later get supported are also working in IT.

Re:That is your job.

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's another perspective from a 30 yr vet of office machine service. I started in the field when IBM Selectrics were just introducing the correction tape feature. I worked on the first edition of telecopiers (fax machines) and as the pc market evolved I began a series of yearly upgrading my personal knowledge bank with new models and new technologies which included many city college classes in computer technology and software programs just to keep competitive and valuable to the companies I worked for. I always enjoyed the happy resolution and satisfaction of making someone's life a little easier by "fixing the problem" and the money I was paid was better than my lack of formal education. You have to crawl before you walk and walk before you run. Get use to doing some grunt work and check your motivation for being in the service business.

Re:That is your job.

[Col. Panic]

he works at a lawfirm. they are probably still running wordperfect 4.2 on windows me

Re:That is your job.

[geminidomino]

Job security is a double edged sword. ...
    On the other, you do such a good job that the company can't afford to promote you out of the area.

That's a good edge. I'd rather pass up the extra $20k/yr than have to start speaking "Manager"

Re:That is your job.

[BrotherBeal]

Props on the Baz Luhrmann - you owe me a new keyboard.

Re:That is your job.

[L4t3r4lu5]

Promote synergy, like a boss!

Outrageously NSFW. Sound required.

Re:That is your job.

[tverbeek]

"Having said that, I don't really see why you cannot study while being at the helpdesk. It's not a stressful role,"

You clearly haven't worked in a helpdesk role at any of the places I've worked.

Re:That is your job.

[chapstercni]

Copied this post and sent it to my brother... Good stuff, and he would agree as well!

Re:That is your job.

[that IT girl]

I wish I could have this mindset--I really do. But I can't. The inefficiency drives me crazy. Despite the job security issue, I have done things like teach a lot of my clients (the smarter ones who aren't likely to make things worse) how to fix little issues on their own. They may not have to call me as often, but they also can get their jobs done a lot more smoothly, and they like/respect me for that.

Re:That is your job.

[modmans2ndcoming]

I almost had that happen to me. I'm moving out of my first position... it was low rung but a small group and the lead of the group kept inserting us in all these different areas so my low rung job turned into a highly skilled job in a year and a half. My lead was busy managing and my co-worker was a moron so when I applied for a promotion to another group I found out that my Director relied on me for 75% of the groups knowledge..... BAAAAAAADDDDD place to be.

My lead advocated for letting me move on and I got loose, but now I am stuck waiting for them to find a replacement. You would think there would be plenty of experienced people looking for a job but what we get are embellished experience and poor performance during interviews.

Re:That is your job.

[Nutsquasher]

Thanks for posting, that was one of the best things I've ever read on Slashdot. It's all so very very true. :)

Re:That is your job.

[Julien Brub]

I'm a programmer, but I used to be a help desk for about a year (I got my degree right when the bubble exploded).
I had a load of stupid stuff to do, like unjamming printers, changing dot-matrix printers ribbons, rebooting frozen terminals / PCs and other stuff only highly qualified people can do.</sarcasm>
I've cut that load by more than half by educating people with quick-fix guides and "not to do" lists. With the time it saved I automated some other tasks (report production, verifications, etc...). I ended up with 2-3 hours a day worth of job and 5-6 hours to code data analysis tools to saved some of my boss time.
So if you can, focus on prevention, even if it means working harder during a short while.

Re:That is your job.

[Anonymous Coward]

I would go as far as to say that the folks we have here on the IT helpdesk are very tech un-savvy. They follow simple flowcharts to get resolutions and do very little actual IT work.

That is what a help desk agent is supposed to do they do not have SLA's etc.

People are confusing a Help Desk and a Service Desk that has SLA's and performance and a set goal of First Level Solves. Help Desk is take call and route. Service Desk is take call troubleshoot to best of ability and then route with all troubleshooting done.

Re:That is your job.

[tverbeek]

After beginning a career in IT I quickly established a work ethic that I summarized as "try to do the job well enough that they don't need you anymore". Train the staff to effectively use the equipment, and even find solutions to their own problems. Document everything clearly so I could take vacations, or even get hit by a bus without things grinding to a halt. I knew the scope of the problems I would face and new developments in technology would make my "goal" unattainable.

Then business got bad, every department's budget got slashed, and I was the IT person whose lay-off would be "least disruptive". My career's been pretty much stalled ever since.

I'm not saying my outlook was wrong... just that no good deed goes unpunished.

Re:That is your job.

[coreb]

Thank you for this. A few phrases of this post are going to be on my wall by this afternoon.

Re:That is your job.

[Cro Magnon]

But even they have to fool people into thinking they serve.

Re:That is your job.

[Cro Magnon]

Now, as everyone who ever wrote a line of code will know, nothing kills your concentration more than a phone call.

Except for them popping into your cube in person. That, IMO, is even worse than a phone call.

Re:That is your job.

[jollyreaper]

Um. If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job. Your work isn't being interrupted every five minutes, but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.

IT is a support function, deal with it or find a different career field.

All depends on how the department is structured. In my situation, we've got a dedicated man-on-the-phone whose main job is to run around and do the every five minute interruption thing. The sysadmin is his backup but the whole point is he's supposed to be able to work on complicated stuff without getting his train of thought broken every time it gets on track. This is only sane. I'm more of a specialist helping userland their systems but am also available for routine helpdesk stuff when the need arises.

Any organization with a helpdesk bigger than one person should have a structure where one tech is available for putting out fires while the other tech can concentrate on the stuff that requires concentration.

IT is similar to accounting. In a small shop, one accountant does everything, every hat in the department sits on one head. Same with the one IT guy. As a business grows, the one accountant guy starts getting staff and offloading the work. This is the AP and AR person. Ok, now they're bigger. AR is one position, AP another. Wow, we're even bigger now. We have three or four people in AR now. And so it goes with IT. Grow big enough, you have staffers specializing in just one particular system. Here's the DBA, here's the Exchange admin, less hats to wear but they're very complicated hats.

What you're probably running into is a company whose need is growing beyond what they've staffed for but see no need to adjust the headcount to reflect that.

Re:That is your job.

[stu72]

too bad he was wrong about the sunscreen.

Re:That is your job.

[asylumx]

Great post, +10 insightful! I'm not anywhere near the helpdesk and your post made me think differently about my career path!

Re:That is your job.

[dkleinsc]

Many jobs aren't about service in the same was as help desk or auto mechanic.

- Management, for starters, which tends to be not about service but about trying to squeeze as much out of your people as possible.
- Sales, which can be about service but is often about BSing the customer into paying a lot more than they should for something.
- "Consulting", which is mostly about giving content-free Powerpoint presentations to make some manager look good. (What I'm referring to here are shops that hire lots of Harvard grads to give presentations on things they know next to nothing about. They exist, they're very profitable, and totally mind-numbing to work for.)
- Advertising, which tends to be about making a product, company, or political cause look better than it really is.

See, when the parent talks about "service", what he means is that when a help desk worker does their job, some user's problem is solved. When a lot of these folks do their job, all that's happened is that somebody is convinced to do something that really doesn't help themselves or anyone else.

Re:That is your job.

[dkleinsc]

That was really well written. Might I suggest a more poetic way of saying the same thing:

Work is love made visible
And if you cannot work with love but only
with distaste, it is better that you should
leave your work and sit at the gate of the
temple and take alms of those who work with joy.
For if you bake bread with indifference
you bake a bitter bread that feeds but half
man's hunger
And if you grudge the crushing of the
grapes, your grudge distills a poison in the wine
And if you sing though as angels,and
love not the singing, you muffle man's ears
to the voices of the day and the voices of
the night.

-Kahlil Gibran

(The rest of this particular bit can be found here: http://www.sfheart.com/work.html)

Re:That is your job.

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, why is Outlook getting frozen? I support Outlook and it almost never locks up. You dealing with big PST files? A policy for deploying Outlook that isn't quite working out? Triage these cases, solve the root problem, and get rid of them.

--Sam

Re:That is your job.

[L4t3r4lu5]

Self-serving doesn't count.

Re:That is your job.

[DrgnDancer]

Depends where you work. In some places (it sounds like this is a medium sized business, so it probably fits the bill), desktop support is ALSO supposed to work on operational IT. In other words, your job is to take user support calls, but while you're at it, look at these spam filter rules and see if you can't tighten things up a bit, and check the web server configs to see if we can support this new Intranet page., and write a script to check the status of the mailserver ever 10 minutes. It's really, really hard to concentrate on an operational problem when you are constantly being interrupted by user issues. Yes, it's your job but this other thing is ALSO your job, and if you could just get an hour without interruption maybe you could finally get it done.

I've been in the opposite situation myself several times, my title was "Systems Administrator", but the company was small enough that I also had to deal with user issues. This is even worse, since my "primary" job is to support the operational and planning needs of the organization, and user issues are supposed to be "secondary". In practices, since users are real flesh and blood people who can whine and/or complain to the director, their issues can never really be "secondary" and operational needs suffer.

Re:That is your job.

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

If you take a cynical tone, just about any job can be made to sound worthless. But any job properly done is about service.

Re:That is your job.

[mortiis]

If that's the case - find a bigger company where unjamming printers is a job for the PC techs or one of their monkeys, not the helpdeskers who deal with potentially revenue critical problems with their knowledge of the intertwining of different mission critical applications.

Naturally there are lesser problems and incidents too, which you delegate.

Re:That is your job.

[BarryJacobsen]

my Director relied on me for 75% of the groups knowledge..... BAAAAAAADDDDD place to be.

This is a WONDERFUL place to be! Time to ask for a raise! If you don't get it, your director risks showing how incompetent he is when you leave as all of a sudden his department isn't functioning half as good as it was before you left.

Re:That is your job.

[Rex Stone]

IT is a service provider (ITIL). Goal is to align IT services with the business to generate value. Solving the root cause of a problem is where one should concentrate their abilities to bring value to the company. Create an A3 report to show upper management where problem are and hopefully you will get the budget needed to fix them. Throw a positive spin to IT help desk positions.

Re:That is your job.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes seriously well written! I too have struggled with the exact concept, Do should I really work in the area of my hobbies? Can it ruin my love of programming?

Re:That is your job.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but they can afford to pay you more to continue doing a good job, or risk losing you to someone else who will.

Re:That is your job.

[denobug]

I really like what you have said, uptownguy. You cannot really do well in your job if you don't have a passion for it. Yet you don't really want to work on your hobby as your job to ruin your life.

Anywork that is worth doing usually have a part where no one wants to do. That's what they pay people for. There's also plenty of technology oriented job that is not part of IT organization.

My group does industrial automation for a mid-to-large energy company and we just hired a cybersecurity consultant who has extensive background of IT support, network deployment and maintenance, as well as plenty of network security experience. Yet he will have to learn all about the backgrounds of industrial automations and understand our roles (as well as our equipments) and our priorities, which can be quite different when comparing to straight IT support. Eventhough every one of us in the group are competent in general IT functions we sure appreciate to have someone who knows even more than we do working with us. I'm sure he is excited to be in a different position and solving problems from a totally different angle.

Re:That is your job.

[Acer500]

The good people understand that they cant do my job (and I cant do theirs) so we don't get in each others way, have respect for each other and just get along but there is about 30% of my co-workers that make me dread getting up in the morning because they are just arseholes who refuse to listen and expect me to make everything better.

And what of when you think it's one-sided (they couldn't do your job, but you could do theirs better :) ) - AND they make more :P .. do you move into their career? (except you can't move into being the Director's nephew or some such sometimes).

Re:That is your job.

[plague3106]

Well, my advice to you would be... just do the bare minimum to keep the job, don't go out of your way to make sure things run smoothly if you're gone. Milk them for as long as you can, because clearly they don't give a shit about you when all is said and done.

#1 for anyone working to remember is: your sole purpose there is to collect a paycheck, nothing more.

Re:That is your job.

[plague3106]

You make some great points, but I disagree with this. This is baby-boomer baloney. It's rationalizing selfishness. There's no harm in it if "what you want to do with your life" is something worthwhile or even noble. But for most people, it's just a code word from socially acceptable narcissism. Me me me, is what it breaks down to.

Ya, and what's wrong with focusing on yourself? No one else is going to give a shit about me, so I might as well...

Besides, how is it narcissism to try to find a job you enjoy doing? Everyone is better off with that, including your coworkers.

Re:That is your job.

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all, thanks for taking the time to write such an interesting post. I initially tried to address your points individually but the words aren't flowing well today so I'll just try to dump it all out.

I guess I want to remain in IT because despite how much they anger me currently, I do enjoy computers and the associated technology. I do still feel that sensation of awe when I walk into the server room and see all the cables and das blinkenlights. I can't see myself working in anything that's not IT-related. That said, sometimes I do question if IT is right for me and if my true calling is something else entirely. It's interesting that you mention working with your hands as after graduating I worked in the trades. I dug ditches, laid concrete, redecorated houses among other things, and I do know that feeling of satisfaction you get from taking something shit and turning it into something good through your own grit and sweat. But doing that short-term to pay off the student loan is one thing, a career is something else entirely.

I'm not money-driven at all, and am definitely not in IT for the money. I don't even earn that much in my current role anyway (not that I'm saying I deserve more). I'd rather be doing something I love for 15K instead of feeling like I do now in a job that was 45K. But I don't know what I love, that's the main issue. I don't know much about anything any more. Nothing much excites me or inspires me, and I mostly just feel like going to sleep. I could take the money I've saved and backpack around the world for a year, but that doesn't seem as attractive to me as everyone else. Besides, I'd rather sort out my 'career' first instead of putting it off a year to run away from my problems halfway around the globe.

I like the idea of building an arcade cabinet as a hobby project. That's working with the hands, and has fun aspects to it - carpentry, electronics, computing. But to do that I need tools and space, and for tools and space I need a garage or basement. And for a garage or basement I need a house, and for a house I need a mortage, and for that I need a well-paying job, which needs a career plan, and you get the idea. I know that every great journey begins with the smallest step, but I don't know in which direction to make the step, or I make the step and realise it's in the wrong direction.

Enjoying the ride is good advice but something I am struggling to deal with. I feel as though I am not actually living, and that I need to do some things first before I start living a 'normal' life. I don't feel part of life or the part of the people around me. I feel as though everyone knows something that I don't, that they're in the treehouse and I can't climb the rope ladder. Sure, everyone has their difficulties and problems but they manage to somehow get through it. They go to concerts, to sports matches, have sex, party, laugh, cry, take holidays abroad and generally live. And while I do some of these things, it's not the same. It feels almost fraudulent.

Didn't mean to get too heavy, but your post does invoke a lot of inward reflection I guess.

Re:That is your job.

[Deosyne]

Depends on the business. Smaller outfits may have the all-in-one manager/admin/R&D guy that has no other possible future opportunity (although I'm betting a large number of those people are more victims of their own "not my job" mentality than lack of potential opportunity), but larger companies with some IT-savvy folk in management branch that stuff out. Hell, my entire job is now evaluating future tools, when we don't kludge something together, to provide solutions that we usually identify ourselves as being needed and/or beneficial instead of waiting for edicts from on high.

I spent years in support, first in a call center and then doing help desk/desktop support. I busted my ass and did everything that I could to work myself out of a job by automating and documenting everything in sight. While that was an unrealistic goal since the business will always require hands-on support, it did accomplish two things:

1) Helped me to develop a wide variety of IT skills
2) Showcased my capabilities to the business

When an engineering role finally became available in my current company, it wasn't even a contest with any other applicants since I had already proven time and again that I fit the role perfectly and had the business' interest at heart. Most IT folk won't ever get past help desk level roles because they live with a reactionary mindset and expect rewards to fall in their laps if they just maintain the status quo. The reality is that IT personnel who think that way are nothing but overhead that the business would sooner be able to dispose of altogether. It is only when someone in IT can demonstrate that they can be something far more than a low fat substitute for the Google search engine that most business folk will recognize that they possess real value to the business as a whole and consider adopting strategic IT roles rather than relegating them all to tactical support elements.

So, to answer your question, "Since when do I do BlackBerry support?" At the moment that one of your customers needed help with their BlackBerry, that's when. Because almost inevitably that was just going to be the first of many requests for help with that particular product, which meant that it was either, a) a pain in the ass that you'd rather not deal with because you didn't feel prepared to handle it, or b) an opportunity to get a jump on some new tech coming into your environment and develop some proactive solutions for preventing problems and improving the overall experience of your customers. Given your response, I guess you went with option (a) which is actually highly consistent with our experience with the work ethic of consultants that have come on site over the years, so it sounds as though you did indeed find your niche.

Re:That is your job.

[Tenant129]

1 year in a helpdesk position is not an overly long time. I would suggest finding a different helpdesk position if you're not happy with that company, or as the original poster put it, get out of the helpdesk gig if it doesn't suit you. Last thing anyone wants is to have a legit problem and call a disgruntled helpdesk tech.

Re:That is your job.

[modmans2ndcoming]

Its a bad place to be in my case because I didn't want to continue working in that area of IT.

Re:That is your job.

[CAIMLAS]

Maybe it's his job, maybe it isn't.

I was in a position a while back where I was hired as a "systems administrator". Both the job description and my understanding of the job was that I was supposed to operate primarily within the planning/making infrastructure work/keep working role. However, the reality was that I ended up reimaging workstations and fixing various user-caused problems more often than not. So it was "my job", but it was initially represented as a minor fraction of the work I'd be doing, not the primary role (which is more akin to "desktop support" and can be/should be mostly mitigated through proper sysadmin planning and control anyway). But you can't do that primary role if you're focused on user support.

go for it

[Anonymous Coward]

go for it man, on free time study and go higher. don't stay there if your not happy. good luck

Re:go for it

[Normal Dan]

I wish I had mod points. This is some of the best advice one could ever take for just about any time in life.

Helldesk...heh heh

[partowel]

My ignorant opinion is to get more education. It's worth it, if you want it.

If full time isn't possible, do it correspondence/distance education.

Helldesk really is HELL.

It's amazing what padding your resume does. You have to take the first step.

As for moving back home, I wouldn't do that.

But if you get along with your family, I guess its an option.

Run For Your Life. Now.

[Daniel_Staal]

You seem to be under the misapprehension that it gets better once you are out of the helpdesk. It only looks like it does. You get less stupid end-users, and more stupid bosses.

Get out, now, while you still can. Go get a degree in plumbing, or electrical work. (Heck, if you want to stay with computers, get certified to install fiber. It's only going to grow, and I've had trouble finding anyone to install it in the new house.) Something that doesn't expect you for the rest of your life to be answering the phone at 12:45am on random nights.

Got to run, the pager's going off...

What!

[Anonymous Coward]

They have master degrees in "database" and "web development?"

Ahhhh, my Television is moving!!!

Re:What!

[Anonymous Coward]

As soon as they offer a masters in porn, I'll go back to school.

Re:What!

[jellomizer]

I remember back in early 2000 or late 1990 there was a school that got some heat for having a class on pornography. However like most college classes that sound cool. They find a way to make it dull and boring the history and studying what was considered pornographic through out the ages, how the cultures of the time treaded and perceived it. So unless you are a knee man. I doubt it would be that fun.

Re:What!

[Anonymous Coward]

A masters in porn is a fluff degree ... anyone can graduate magna cum loudly.

Learn a UNIX

[jsimon12]

If you really want to stay in IT and don't want to learn a programming language learn a UNIX. Even half way decent UNIX admins are few and far between, I know a number of companies hiring.

Just download a BSD, Linux distro or Open Solaris and use that for your desktop at home. Tinker, read and study and you can get a job out of helpdesk.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[calmofthestorm]

To become a competent unix sysadmin, do what this guy says

The problem is that there are no certifications for linux that actually mean much of anything, unlike the windows world where you have the MS cert. Sure, there are a few companies that offer certs for linux but anyone who knows anything in HR will sneer at them as the meaningless drivel they are.

I actually don't know how people get involved in being sysadmins on unix systems, since it seems you need experience to get it.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[smash]

More relevant I think is to perhaps use a Unix to learn network related skills such as TCP/IP network design, DNS, mail routing, VOIP, etc.

Unix (or Windows) is a tool to accomplish a given task. Learn the fundamentals of what you are trying to do and how the protocols work together, and then you can apply this to whatever operating system you happen to get lumbered with by the bean counters or previous management/admin...

So yeah, download a free unix, but remember, its just a tool to achieve a desired service. Focus on the services (and how to diagnose them), rather than the actual particular software package so much. Knowing Linux's quirks (just for example) inside out won't do you any good if you're trying to support Windows or Solaris (or SCO or FreeBSD, etc)...

Keep your mind open, and get exposure to as many tools as possible, it will increase your opportunity for employment...

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Fallen Kell]

I have to agree with the parent on this one. You need to go learn something that isn't taught at pump and dump schools or tech institutions. There are a thousand people with window's certs for every one that actually knows something about Unix/Linux. There is almost never a shortage for the need of a good Unix/Linux admin in the job market. A lot of the first generation admins are retiring now and in the next 5-10 years which means there will be a lot of need for experienced admins. Another thing you can do is focus on something like High Performance Computing (HPC). Again, there is more and more demand for this, and guess what, ~87% of the top 500 supercomputers run linux, ~5% run Unix, and around 1% run Windows. Again, this just says, go learn a Unix/Linux distribution. Get you foot in the door at a company that uses it. Yeah, you might have to do helpdesk, but you can actually learn Unix/Linux from helpdesk due to the fact that most problems are not something that a scripted conversation will normally fix. While there are some issues that you will run into time and time again, those things will almost always present themselves in a different form. You are also dealing with managing systems which can easily have an uptime of years. The systems were designed and built to last and have an OS that had the same stability requirements as well. It is typical to see systems go a year or more between reboots.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Katchu]

Actually took a systems administration course in Microsoft's version of Unix (Xenix), and had a "diploma" on my wall for the sake of humor. The computers had Motorola 68000 chips, were multi-user systems with up to a half-dozen terminals or computers logged in. Made by Radio Shack. A couple of years ago I took the diploma down as sunlight had bleached it to a white piece of paper -- fading just as my memory of Xenix did. (Thank God).

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft Certs mean something? All I've ever seen is jackasses that can take tests but can't fix a Windows network to save their lives. I'm the Windows/Linux/OSX admin that usually comes in after the guy with the certs cleaning up the mess he left.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Anonymous Coward]

There are several Linux certs (most obviously RHCT/RHCE).

There is no way that they could possibly be more meaningless than MCSE.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[smoker2]

The problem is that there are no certifications for linux that actually mean much of anything, unlike the windows world where you have the MS cert. Sure, there are a few companies that offer certs for linux but anyone who knows anything in HR will sneer at them as the meaningless drivel they are.

Er ... https://www.redhat.com/training/

Re:Learn a UNIX

[lwsimon]

I've had a couple of offers to join the *nix sysadmin team at work - I just mentioned to the right people that I *did* Linux, and then made friends with a couple of the current sysadmins. I use ArchLinux at home, and whenever I did something cool, I'm drop by their desk and show it off.

I don't want to be a sysadmin, though - I just like to talk about Linux. I'm perfectly happy where I am now, which is business-side web development. I get to solve my own problems most of the time, and I don't have to deal with the hassle that is SOX and IT code review. Plus, after getting to know the sysadmins, they know I'm not going to break the system, and I ended up with root access on my development and prod boxes.

In short - focus on the part of the job you like. Gain more responsibility in that area, and talk about it a lot to people who are already doing it. In time, you can change your own job description, even if you don't get a change in title.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Anonymous Coward]

I would think that one of the Solaris sysadmin certifications would be pretty beneficial to a resume. Granted, Solaris will probably be disappearing in fairly quick order but its still preferred by Oracle for database installs. It still runs ALOT of high end sites and the like. Its also harder to get than a comparable MCSE.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Antique Geekmeister]

Oh, my. RedHat's training is good, although about 1/3 of the tests run to the "petty RedHat buzzword standard answer", as if someone from an MCSE program wrote them, and another 1/6 run to the "their expected answer is, in fact, incorrect, but you have to know of some odd circumstances in which it doesn't apply and it's fun to hand in a separate sheet with the corrections to their answers".

The remaining half of the tested answers are pretty good material. And that's frankly excellent compared to the absolute nonsense in Microsoft Certifed tests.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[J4]

Could one reason there are so many half not decent UNIX admins be that tinkering with a desktop
might leave some gaps in a persons knowledge? That method is good for sounding smart when talking to the
ignorant, so yeah being a BS artiste can get him outta the help desk, but "learning UNIX" is nontrivial (not to mention a vague goal).
Time frames and depth of appropriate knowledge are important too. Incidentally, that has little to do with a persons mental capacity,
it's an artifact of the depth and breadth of a poorly documented topic.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Anonymous Coward]

I was in the same boat as you a few years back, dead end tier1 gig. It was ok but I was not being challenged enough, it was all the same... every day. different people different issues but always the same old stuff.... I started talking to some of the admin and general IT support in that company and let them know where I want to be in a few years and they gave me the advice to get there. "Find something you like to do and do it." you like to play with databases start learning on your own time and work towards that niche. I had used with linux in college. I started playing with it on my own time (home PC). I picked up a few books and realized that I could work on these systems and not get to burned out to quickly. once I felt fairly adequate with the OS I went through the RHCE Classes in Atlanta (also included was the RHCA) and soon landed a sysadmin position with some level3 deskside support responsibilities. I work for one of the largest companies in the world on a small team that handles a specific region of the business. I dont use RedHat but rather ubuntu server and suse but the RHCE is what landed me this job.... The classes didn't teach me anything I could not have learned from a book but those 4 letters got my resume noticed and got my foot in the door..... my only previous experience was callcenter phone support and that single tier1 position with basic deskside support. I was brought in on a 6 month contract and they decided to keep me around.

That week of classes was the best $3000 I have ever spent. I dont care what you hear about unix/linux big companies are taking notice and with everyone counting pencils right now the cost difference between linux and MS is getting attention.

The poster above is absolutely correct HR will look at the phrase RHCE and RHCA and read right over it but they stop and take notice when you write it out.... the term Engineer and Administrator are very hot terms on a resume.

my advice to you is to play with everything and anything you can get your hands on and find what you like. then start moving in that direction. get some books on the subject, start talking to other IT people, get your resume out there and several versions of your resume out there.... write one technical resume, one non technical, one very detailed, one short and sweet. get them out on the web, local recruiting offices, check the websites of larger businesses in your area many of them do not post on job sites but rather have a careers link on their site.

I have been in your position and there is only one person that is going to get you out of it.... I hope you find what you are looking for.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually don't know how people get involved in being sysadmins on unix systems, since it seems you need experience to get it.

That's true. I got my job in a large SCO shop where we have a windows machine and a Unix box. Windows for the app we support, and a login for the actual backend server support.

I was doing level 2 helpdesk support a year ago, and got this current contract (14 months and about a year left, after 3 renewals --no commitment so far, but that's OK) through a call from a headhunter. They needed Apache experience, CISCO router experience, scripting and experience with angry callers (I had this last one, but the rest seemed way above me and I never would have gone on an interview for it without FIRST having the experience... chicken and the egg problem.) I had light scripting on my resume, some light HTML, Perl, MacOS X support, light programming... it was because I wanted to highlight programming experience. Don't get me wrong, I had listed about 5 years of excellent support on windows, macs and even some SuSe / Red Hat desktops, but never thought I'd get server support with a Unix backend without having somehow done that on a daily basis at the original job.

Because of the tweaking / improvement projects that my current company has (I'm a contractor) they chose to ignore the lack of previous on-the-job skills on Apache (we only use it for log checks when there are slowness and errors, and to know how to start and stop the service, while the Devs do everything else.) I had thought my headhunter didn't have the right candidate when I read the posting he gave me, but things are OK.

The major problem is that I'm back to Level 1 helpdesk with Sysadmin projects that can't get done because we have a call every 5 minutes or less, like the OP says. It's a kind of stress I didn't have to deal with before, since I used to get some peace when stepping away from the desk while on the field (support for a main building and rarely our backup one)

Re:Learn a UNIX

[LHorstman]

Since when do RedHat exams have answers? They are all practical tests now (and have been for a long time I think). The "questions" are:
1) boot this computer, doesn't work? Fix it. Still doesn't work? Fix some other stuff.
2) create some users and give them access to this and that
3) install and configure this program and that program
4) now install this infrastructure resource and make it work
5) hurry up and finish, you're almost out of time!

FWIW Microsoft has even added some practical content, but they are nowhere near as good as the RedHat exams.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that there are no certifications for linux that actually mean much of anything, unlike the windows world where you have the MS cert.

Most Unix-y people I've been around don't think too highly of certs anyway. So perhaps take the course to show that you're pro-active and have the moxy to learn: that's the quality that will help you get hired, not a piece of paper.

Also, if there are any local Unix / Linux user groups where you live / work, attend meetings. You'll learn stuff and meet people who are in the area of IT you're interested in. If they see you're knowledgeable they may mention your name to people who looking.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, learn LINUX. The Microsoft route is great for job security but unless the company you work for has a need to have warm bodies onsite, the jobs can easily be outsourced.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[DrgnDancer]

Dunno about these days, but I did it via the time honored method of teaching myself and convincing the company I worked for to start a small Linux support group (basically, "send them to me if they're using Linux" but just official enough to put on my resume). Then I convinced that one guy in the really small office that happened to have an old Solaris server in addition to all their Windows stuff that I could run his computers well enough. After that I could legitimately put "Unix Administrator" on my resume and things got easier.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Anonymous Coward]

CompTIA offers Linux+ certification. If you're starting from nothing, it's a great place to begin as it's relatively inexpensive and will teach you quite a bit. You can also become a RedHat Certified Engineer, which might be distribution-specific but will teach extremely valuable skills applicable to all *IX flavours. RHCE is grueling, expensive, and has a first pass rate comparable to the CCNA (RedHat gives everyone a freebie retry for when - not if - you fail the first time). Anyone with a half-decent short-term memory can cram for and pass the MS exams. You actually have to have skills to pass the RHCE, and any UNIX firm worth their salt knows it.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the most valuable learning experiences in CS or any degree area is doing an internship or co-op. So much so that they should be required to graduate. They give you the practical experience that so many employers want, give you a chance to explore different areas of your field, test drive employers and new place to live after graduation, the chance to network with and get advice from experienced professionals and earn some money. Many employers hire their interns after graduation if they are good.

Along the same lines, not only did I do a couple of internships, but I worked for the university CS dept. as a system admin. It helped me get to know some of my professors before taking their classes, which is valuable in itself as far as which ones to sign up for or avoid. It gave me an advantage when I needed their help on something class related because I had probably helped fix something for them. They also have professional contacts that may be helpful. Who you know matters almost as much as what you know. Use the career services center for all they're worth.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[CorporateSuit]

If you really want to see HR swoon at your resume, you should include that you took a 4-year programming course, and have extensive at-home experience, in Legacy. They hear about expensive, hard-to-run Legacy systems all the time that they need someone to take care of once Kyle quits or dies! Finally, the guy they've been looking for without knowing it is You!

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Captain Climate]

I sense that the pendulum between value and valueless in regards to Microsoft Certifications is swinging to the negative. If the trend validates then those with specialized talent (like UNIX) and real world experience/accomplishments would increase in value. My own basic knowledge of Linux has been valuable in the workplace on several occasions.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Anonymous Coward]

To become a competent unix sysadmin, do what this guy says

The problem is that there are no certifications for linux that actually mean much of anything, unlike the windows world where you have the MS cert. Sure, there are a few companies that offer certs for linux but anyone who knows anything in HR will sneer at them as the meaningless drivel they are.

I actually don't know how people get involved in being sysadmins on unix systems, since it seems you need experience to get it.

Go to this link
http://www.bsdcertification.org/

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Anonymous Coward]

Since I am currently working my first Unix admin position and have helped with the hiring of other admins, my experience boils down to this. If you want to get a Unix admin job, yes, learn the basics. Get comfortable in working with the different environments to the point that if someone asks you a question about, let's say, tracking down a system failure, you know the basic steps to start with. If you land an interview, be open and show some excitement about being there.

Show some kind of interest in learning and helping others. If you get asked if you are familiar with a technology, be honest if you know it or not. If you don't know it, own up and say you don't know it. If you want to learn that technology, state that you want to learn it and that you would be excited to learn it.

Don't get in an ego competition with the people hiring you since they will know more than you about the environment they run. In other words, people don't like being told they are doing things wrong by a potential candidate.

The big thing to remember is, as always, be honest and be yourself. You may not get the job and it is not always due to lack of knowledge, it may be that you may not be a good fit to the rest of the group. The important thing is that if you want an admin position bad enough, you have to keep trying to find a group that will value you and the work you do.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Anonymous Coward]

Or a more lucrative job in the same field. MS "certified professionals" are a dime a dozen, and many business schools have such hard-core classes as "MS Excel 302". Those same people had a starting salary in the $35k range, without a Bachelors, with was more like $42k. Since I was familiar with AIX (gross, but it's what my school used), and had done many projects administrating and writing for various BSD's on top of my experience with Windows (much less than I know now), my starting salary was more in the $50k range.

Get into more 'niched' fields, such as computer security, and you can only move up from there. Having the education with a few years security experience, or large-scale network management experience, can easily get you into the $80k to $120k range.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Antique Geekmeister]

Really? Sounds cool. That kind of thing can be difficult to test. I remember the last time I reviewed one, explaining the details of the DHCP questions to them and how their answers did not apply to their older but still commercially supported versions of DHCP. So yes, they've used such texts.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[eronysis]

Shhhhhhhhhhh!

Re:Learn a UNIX

[Blue23]

Sure, there are a few companies that offer certs for linux but anyone who knows anything in HR will sneer at them as the meaningless drivel they are.

I guess then that it's lucky that most HR don't know anything. Seriously though, the few clued-in HR (who aren't upper mgmt shills) are golden, but oh-so-rare.

I actually don't know how people get involved in being sysadmins on unix systems, since it seems you need experience to get it.

Why, you become a PFY to the resident BOfH. :) Seriously though, one path into it is working at a small or medium sized shop where you shift into a jr. admin position because you're the guy who always got all the facts for the SA when you did have to bother them, showed interest and remembered when they explained something, and took on more than straight helpdesk. But that's true of most of the admin positions - we regularly promote from our helpdesk. Not always a straight path - helpdesk to PC support to jr. win admin sort of thing.

It's still a service position. More projects and (hopefully) less calls, but don't mistake that one of your primary responsibilities as an sysadmin is to be invisible - make everything work.

Re:Learn a UNIX

[prizrak]

I fully agree with "Learn a UNIX" advice. Here in MA there seem to be a shortage of qualified UNIX admins even nowadays.

I've been trying to hire 3 Senior UNIX/Linux admins (long term contract) for last 2 months and I had to go through 72 (yes, 72) candidates that I phone screened before locating qualified individuals - and that's only the ones who passed simpler phone pre-screening. We needed someone who knows Solaris/Veritas/Linux well so that made it more difficult - but still, good experienced UNIX admins are definitely in demand.

If you have RHCE certification - that is always a big plus, 5 hours of hands on test do tend to identify who can make things work quickly and who can't. Solaris certs are also a plus, though not as valuable as RHCE IMO. And of course experience is above all important for everything.

So if UNIX is something you like to work on - it is easy to start on your own and work your way up step by step.

Distractions normal. Support is part of other jobs

[syousef]

Hate to break it to you but you won't necessarily get away from distractions and you may not entirely move away from support. Every job I've ever worked in included distractions and some amount of support work.

I currently work as a software developer but I also work to troubleshoot the existing systems, and I do take second tier customer calls (so less problems, but usually harder ones). I even work shifts and do on-call support. My job's a good one - prestigeous, reasonable pay so I'm not complaining.

That's not to say I would rather be on a help desk, or that you shouldn't try to better yourself. Just make sure your expectations are realistic.

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[Korbeau]

What is installing certified fibers doing with a computer major?

Ugh

[copponex]

Go back to school. Have sex with college girls while you still can. Go to any open lectures and take some off the wall classes. Study abroad or save your money for six months and party in Brazil. Meet some people who have lofty ideas, and try to get jobs at companies with the same.

You aren't going to learn anything but how to take shit and wallow in misery at your current job. If you think that's a valuable skill that you need to learn, then stay.

Re:Ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

Have sex with college girls while you still can.

If that were an option would he be posting on /.?

Re:Ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry once you're past 25, they want nothing to do with you. undergrad at 25+ is a lonely and tiresome route. even stuff like group projects is tough because 18yos still think of themselves as kids and don't want to work with an 'adult'. maybe just getting certs is a better idea.

Re:Ugh

[antdude]

Geeks/Nerds, girls, and sex? LOL. J/K. ;)

Re:Ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

Graduate school and sex don't go hand in hand (no pun intended - yeah right...)
Nailing that hot 18 year old is a relatively rare occurrence. Also, with OP's money concern, staying on dorm - which increases the chances of sex - isn't a really good option - even with funding.
What he should do is try to do work and classes, maybe just one or two a sem. It is a lot of work (I'm a full time grad student) and may take 2.5 to 3 years (less if he does summer/winter sessions as well).

Re:Ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

undergrad at 25+ is a lonely and tiresome route.

Two things: 1. Not all colleges are created equally, and 2. You're doing it wrong.

^_^

Re:Ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

Getting AIDS or lesser VD isn't going to help him. And college girls have debt. Serious, serious debt.

You don't have to quit your job to take classes. Usually work will pay for it, so long as you make a case for the class applying to work. A single 2 credit or 3 credit class is do-able during your off hours. It will keep your mind busy, and college is a great place to make friends. You might even meet the campus IT guys, and get your foot in the door to working there!

Re:Ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

doing what wrong? pretty obvious to me that age is a barrier. a few years is a big deal at those ages.

Re:Ugh

[mikael_j]

It also depend a lot on how you present yourself, if you show up in a suit, jammer on about your kid and the ex you had the kid with, live twenty miles from the college campus and generally seem like you're more like their parents than them then yes, you will be seen as an outsider.

But when I was in college I knew a couple of guys who fit right in even though they were 25+, one was some kind of indie rock/punk guy who decided it might be a good idea to do something with his life, the other guy had just spent a couple of years travelling the world snowboarding in various exotic locations, since they both acted and dressed like oddball 20-somethings instead of dull and gray 30-somethings they ended up being very popular...

/Mikael

Re:Ugh

[geminidomino]

18 < 21.
25 > 21.

You can make a lot of friends.

Re:Ugh

[DrWho520]

I might pick this spot to note that "losing a year to school" is not losing working experience. I was credited with two years of experience when I entered my job (Software Engineer, so maybe it does not apply) with a M.S. degree. It got me hired as a level 2 and I have two years on the promotion curve.

But yeah, go back to school and have sex with as many college chicks as possible.

Re:Ugh

[Antique Geekmeister]

I can vouch for this. I've had an absolute blast taking a few work-paid courses. Learning a new language or new skills on out-of-date, familiar equipment was especially fun when the TA and I took apart some of his equipment and I pointed out where the historically bad solder joints on that unit were. (They would eventually fail under power cycling and thermal expansion: the pads were too small to carry that much power supply current.) This fixed the "we don't dare turn it off" problem. It didn't get me an A, but it helped my grade.

Re:Ugh

[foniksonik]

Somebody needs to learn how to rent expensive sports cars for the weekend, as in show up at the next college party in a Diablo and you'll get noticed real quick by the 18 year olds... just claim that your insurance is special and only covers weekend driving - or say it's being 'cleaned' or 'in-the-shop' if anyone asks during the week. The advantage to being 25+ is that you CAN rent a car ;-p

Re:Ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

"Freedom's just another word for nothing else to lose" - Janice Joplin

"Oh freedom, ah yeah freedom, that's just some people talking. Your prison is walking through this world all alone" - Eagles "Desperado"

The above suggestion works when you're in your 20's - but when you're ready for real meaning and giving in your life, you'll need something more...

Re:Ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

That is a fantastic idea!!!! Sex and partying w/hot chicks definitely clears the mind. Then once you are seeing clearly, you can then:
1. find/figure out what you like to do
2. find/figure out how to make money doing what you like to do.

Re:Ugh

[copponex]

If he's postgrad, I would imagine there are female postgrads at the school. Who wants to bother with some 18 year old girl still resolving daddy issues?

Furthermore, who the hell modded me down? What is wrong with an education and having a good time?

Geeks who don't get laid are to blame, I think, so here's some unsolicited advice: a common misperception among geeks is that girls wanted to be treated like a flower. Which is true - sometimes. Take them out to dinner, hang out with them and do new and interesting things out on the town. And on the third or fourth date, fuck them until dawn. Make sure you have lots of condoms and lots of lube, and don't try any weird shit unless she asks you to. And, most importantly, do not confuse your lust with love, and scare her off with some romantic bullshit.

If she's not down with any of that, move on. She has issues that you can't solve. Ask another girl out, and try again. Believe it or not, there are women out there who like sex just as much as you do, if they're not encumbered by religious guilt trips, past negative sexual history, or insecurity.

Huh

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only is that job, but is it REALLY that hard to say "reboot your computer"?

Re:Huh

[psicop]

It's not that hard to say, but getting the end-user to actually do it? That's hard.

"My computer won't turn on..."
"Well, your computer is on. I can ping it. Your monitor needs replaced, though."

Funny Helldesk story

[Anonymous Coward]

Way back in the day, I worked at Creative Labs tech support, and those of us in higher positions were made to sit on a Helpdesk, consisting of 4 stations. When an agent would get stumped, they'd call the helpdesk and get one of us at random. Now, some of the folks who had to sit on this thing were not the sharpest tools in the shed. So one day, to screw with a particularly stupid self important idiot, I sat next to him, just up the hunt group chain, so that if my phone was busy or didn't answer the call would go to him.

So I turned my phone down to almost no ring volume, and every time my phone would ring, I'd wait til the 3rd ring, point over to his phone, and say "Your phone will ring... now". The dumbass got mad because he couldn't figure out how I was doing it for over an hour.

I did of course, get a "stern" talking to afterward, BUT, the supervisor was doing his best to not laugh his ass off as he was telling me to please not do it again.

Re:Funny Helldesk story

[kindherb]

Aloha AC!

Ahhh yes... Good old Stillwater. I did my time @ Creative back in the day, and remember the second level helpdesk station quite vividly. And no I wasn't the victim of the prank.

I do remember working with a certain cute female, and there were some guys on the floor who would hang up on you, only to call back hoping they would get a chance to talk to the cute girl. hehe

Wow! I haven't thought about those days in a long long time.

Re:Funny Helldesk story

[pilgrim23]

Companies that have programmers or other techs who learned all their people skills from interaction with a pet gerbil are not really clear on the concept of staying in business. I work in tech support and that friends is a person oriented skill. You can have the gosh gee whiz tech creds out the wazoo and still piss off a customer. They don't care how many .NET routines you have written they are interested in getting their screen un-stuck and back to their JOB. Talk down to your co-workers NOT the person who ultimately pays for your play-toys

Re:Funny Helldesk story

[Hansele]

The victim was (I think his name was Chris) the agent that came over from California. Of course the supervisor was Dave M. You're not Herb W. are you?

Re:Funny Helldesk story

[sitarlo]

What the fuck is a .Net *routine*?

Re:Funny Helldesk story

[geminidomino]

What the fuck is a .Net *routine*?

1. While TotalLoc > 50
2. -Write 4-5 LOC
3. -Take swig of Wild Turkey
4. SAVE ALL
5. checkin code
6. Cut self

Re:Distractions normal. Support is part of other j

[syousef]

Two other things:

1. A masters may not help as a developer. I have a masters but it's in Astronomy and I did it with no intention of taking on Astronomy as a job. Every time I add the qualification to the list, HR takes it back off. I'm not even sure certain HR staff know the difference between Astronomy and Astrology.

2. You might find it easier to get your foot in the door somewhere else rather than try to move into a development role in your current company. If you're already doing a job well, the company has less incentive to move you elsewhere (until they realise you'll leave otherwise, by which time it's too late). It'll be tough in this market.

first off...

[genner]

First provide me with your employers contact information. Then quit so you'll feel motivated to find somthing else. I'll apply for your old job so you won't feel tempted to go back to it.

Take Some Initiative

[ScottCooperDotNet]

It all depends on what you enjoy. Do you like databases or Web development? Ask the person doing that role if they need help, or even just show you something the next time a user has a problem. If they can have you take care of a minor problem, that's a good first step. Then as they get more comfortable with you, you could eventually transition into a Junior DBA or Junior WebDev. It takes time, but being a positive known quantity helps.

Re:Take Some Initiative

[smash]

This. Spend your spare time at home learning new marketable skills. Don't be a zealot with regards to open-source vs Windows or whatever, look at what businesses are using and learn to fix it. By all means, get skilled in Linux/Unix/whatever, just be aware of the potential market for the skills you're learning.

Be a zealot as far as new software/application development goes if you think you can support it, but don't exclude Windows skills simply because "Windows sucks"; you're cutting yourself out of a huge share of the market.

I started out in helldesk at an ISP, see sig below for what I'm currently doing...

Re:Take Some Initiative

[Anonymous Coward]

OS/X user | Vista us

Haha, something crashed? I knew it! Windows su

Some potential reading material

[Anonymous Coward]

http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/30/1823242
http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/01/173205
http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/08/12/01/0145255.shtml
http://it.slashdot.org/story/09/06/09/2028202/How-Do-IT-Guys-Get-Respect-and-Not-Become-BOFHs?art_pos=2
http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/05/11/0126212/Go-For-a-Masters-Or-Not?art_pos=14

Hack slashot

[Korbeau]

(for some reaason the site is behaving weird right now, maybe it's going on... but..)

Hack slashdot! If you can do that you'll get a great job, and CowboyNeal will give you nice neck massages everyday. Trembling massages, in FEAR!!!1

Oh, and yeah, you can get a job at M$ or Google easily afterwards, if you answer some dumb IQ questionaire.

Lucky Bastard!

[Anonymous Coward]

I even wish I could get a helpdesk position! Last help desk job I applied for had hundreds of applications...for an entry level help desk job. Just about any IT idiot can do front line support, but I didn't get the job. In this economy, I think you better just be happy you have your help desk job. Some of us have to work flipping burgers, waiting tables, or working retail because we can't get back into an IT job.

But if you have the money to do your masters, maybe do it. Perhaps the economy will be better when you're done. Just don't hold your breath.

A few more options

[Anonymous Coward]

It depends on if you want to be a database one trick pony or a programmer or a sysadmin.

A help desk job is where you cut your teeth for being a sysadmin. If you want to be a dba or programmer, you don't need any experience in the real world. You just go to school and hope it's real life.

If you are interested in being a sysadmin, then understand that you are supporting users, and there are sysadmins supporting you.

Hang out with them and ask them to show you how they do their jobs. Learn about the stuff schools can't and never will be able to afford to teach you. SAN's, Fiber switching, the proprietary tools for HP, Sun, IBM, Dell. Use lunch, free time, smoke breaks, after work- whatever.

Sysadmins always have job offers or know people at other companies with job offers that may not be at their level, but at yours. There is no downside.

Secondarily, you should take advantage of their education program. If it's a law firm, they have one. Put in for your RHCE or LPI or MCSE or whatever the hell it is you're working on. Buy or download the book and make them pay for the tests. A cert will get you more pay than a Master's in anything. Unless you are bucking for middle management or want to write obscure code, a Master's won't do dick.

If you really want to leave though- and you know this because you go home, lay in bed, and literally say "I have to get out of this place" every day- then leave. You ain't gonna learn shit. Follow your gut first, head second.

School is a fine fallback if you have money, but if you don't then guess what. This is your school. You won't ever forget working help desk. People in pain learn their maximum threshold for bullshit, so it's good to learn yours early so you don't spin out when you get a job that actually pays the bills. Helpdesk is hell by repetition. DBA, Sysadmin, and maybe Programmer are hell by catching shit from all sides.

I can't tell you what to do. I can tell you that I, and many of the people here, were in your exact position. If you don't want to kill yourself yet, then you aren't finished. Take advantage of what's around you and then opportunities will open up.

Re:A few more options

[beowulfcluster]

Hang out with them and ask them to show you how they do their jobs.

Because there's nothing sysadmins love more than training helpdesk people (or any people) to do sysadmin stuff.

Re:A few more options

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to be a dba or programmer, you don't need any experience in the real world.

This statement displays a staggering level of ignorance. I hope not to enounter any sysadmins like you.

Re:A few more options

[Spad]

I happily share my knowledge with anyone who has a genuine interest and appears to be capable of retaining the information.

That's not to say that I want to be bugged 24/7, but as those who came before did for me, I like to help the smart, driven members of the support team when I can so that they have a chance to escape and do something more interesting with their careers.

Re:A few more options

[Jellybob]

Good ones love it - they know that if helpdesk know how to do whatever needs doing, they don't have to get woken up at 2am to do it themselves.

That, and most geeks love to talk about the latest toys they're playing with.

Re:A few more options

[Anonymous Coward]

I happily share my knowledge with anyone who has a genuine interest and appears to be capable of retaining the information.

This.

I'm more than happy to teach anyone on our tier 1 or 2 staff anything they actually want to learn. Some of it has a tangible benefit to me because I can ask one of them to do any of those tasks if needed e.g. how to make cables, how to assemble our servers, configuring hardware RAID, etc; some is purely for their benefit since our management would never actually let them use the knowledge in their current roles and there are few opportunities for advancement, e.g. how SANs work, zoning, LUN masking, building/configuring ESX servers, deploying VMs, etc.

One thing I like to do is when working on any project is ask the helpdesk if they have any interest in shadowing me when they have time. Earlier this year I did a deployment of Office Communications Server and one of the tier 2 staff worked with me pretty regularly on the project. Now he gets to be his team's expert on any related issues and gets to be seen stepping up and taking initiative and I get to not answer questions on how to do routine administrative tasks and troubleshooting. If there's ever an opening on our team he has a good chance to move up, or if he decides to go somewhere else he can put something beyond helpdesk experience on his resume.

In my personal experience, working hard and showing a desire to improve yourself even outside of your job will eventually pay off. I started at a Fortune 100 helpdesk 5 years ago after interrupting my B.S. in Comp. Sci. to help out with a sick parent. My first position involved nothing beyond entering user e-mails into the ticketing system. Within a few months I moved to the call center and within a year I moved to a position on the tier 3/engineering team because I was spending almost as much time helping other agents close calls as I was on the phone. I currently work as an architect/designer with occasional sysadmin responsibilities at a medium-sized company after moving up from a sysadmin/engineer position there.

You say there's no room for progression where you're at. If that's because they don't maintain any IT admin staff beyond the helpdesk then I would say just start looking somewhere else. If there are admins but just not much turnover then try to learn what you can from them and move on. I'd also like to reiterate what many other people have said that you really never get away from support in IT. It may not be end-user support, but you'll still be getting interrupted to answer your fair share of questions from lower level support and upper management.

Re:A few more options

[DrgnDancer]

Exactly. Why wouldn't you want to help and train anyone you can when the opportunity presents itself. Whether it's a sysadmin training and mentoring the Helldesk guys, or the Helldesk guys in turn taking any chance to train and mentor users, it's sure to decrease your workload in the long run, and help out the person you're mentoring. A win-win by any measure.

Re:A few more options

[Anonymous Coward]

Excellent advise except the certs. I run a mid sized IT department, about 20 staff and 800 end users. I can tell you one of the first things that gets peoples resumes throw away is excessive certs. About 10 years ago I realized that unless you have a CCIE, certs mean nothing. I can teach my grandma to get a MCSE with a transcender, so I see no value in a cert. When I look at a resume here's the order of importance.

1. Work experience, what major projects and technologies have you worked with
2. Education, just something, show me that you went to college. It doesn't matter if you have a Masters or an Associates, just have something. If anything I frown away from anything above a BA, a masters degree equals more money out of my payroll budget.
3. Anything that's not certs. Home labs is an excellent item here, especially for sysadmin work.
4. Then certs.

Define what your job should be

[servognome]

I'd like to remain in IT, but in less of a front-line role where I can actually get some work done without being interrupted every five minutes by a jamming printer or frozen instance of Outlook.

You work at a help desk, so it seems your job is getting in the way of whatever you prefer to work at. From your description it looks like you want to move into a managerial role of technical decision making. You can accomplish this by championing projects that you prefer to work on, or starting your own company. All an advanced degree will get you is a different entry-level position, where you'll still be interrupted every five minutes by something.
At some point you'll need to show independent leadership to get your preferred kind of job.

If you choose web development..

[Auxis]

Create a new buzzword if you choose the web development route. You'll become a millionaire.

Go small

[peipas]

You might consider pursuing a job at a smaller organization where the IT department consists of you, possibly a non-profit. Compensation will be lower but there are often other "benefits" of working non-profit, such as reduced hours or a rewarding culture. These organizations are looking for somebody with experience but realize they can't afford the most experience. You'll get a lot of experience with a wide range of administration, preferably including managing a few servers, although you will still be working with the end users. Variety is wonderful, though.

Due to the current job market this plan may still leave you in your current position for a while, but that could be a good thing for your marketability anyway, as it's good not to look too fickle when an employer doesn't want to have to hire a replacement for you again in another 12-18 months.

Re:Go small

[Runaway1956]

"a rewarding culture"

Yes, Doctor, I know computers. You name it - *nix, Apple, Microsoft. Any hardware, any brand, it doesn't matter. I'm looking for a rewarding job. YIKES!!! WHAT ARE THOSE FIBERS GROWING OUT OF THOSE RATS?!?! Cultures, you say? Are they, like, CONTAGIOUS?!?!

*gulp* Yes, Doctor, I was looking for a cultured environment, but perhaps we don't speak the same brand of English. I'll get back to you, if I get terribly hungry, alright?

Re:Go small

[jellomizer]

Going small also means you will be wearing a lot of hats too. Except for going for a degree In Computer Science (Unless it is really a passion of your) I would suggest getting Project Management Professional (PMP) Certified. That way you have the ability (on your resume) to handle and manage many small tasks.

go for the degree

[jrozzi]

I've had many technical support jobs, helping employees and friends and family. I ended up in your position and didn't know how much longer I could handle it. What I did is got my B.S. in computer science at a good school and now my full time job is working for myself doing web development. You will not go wrong learning databases and web development and if you get good at it you will be able to work anywhere, anytime, and basically for whoever you want. Also, we all know that web applications and "cloud computing" is the new face of the Internet and still in its infant stages and has plenty of room to grow. Having your degree in computer science can land you other types of jobs doing productive work (even if you decide you don't like web development) and you get a great sense of accomplishment for the type of work you choose to do (possibilities are pretty much limitless). Hope this helps.

Maintenance

[argee]

Web Development ... databases ... college ... Get a high maintenance woman, and you will not have to worry about any of those things.

Helldesk forever

[Anonymous Coward]

It is difficult to get out of the help desk at any organization. One person I know immediately shifted to night shift so he could take on line courses. Once he got his CCNA he moved into another role. But if you are on during prime shift and not motivated to train up in another area on your own. You will be there until your job is moved off shore or you quit.

Not all Master's degrees are made equal

[Anonymous Coward]

It depends on where you're thinking of getting a degree from. If you can get into a good program, it can help you jump the fence from "IT" over to "software development," where the grass is greener and the pagers quieter. (This is not to say that software development is never frustrating or never involves dealing with idiots, but from your complaints it definitely seems like something you'd enjoy more.)

Staying home and learning technologies is great, and may even be more helpful on the job than what you'd learn in that Master's program, but it definitely isn't as helpful on your resume. Go get a degree, bust your ass to get good grades, and then start applying to software/technology companies where you'll be helping to provide a product or service rather than helping other people provide one.

School is for people who can't read

[holophrastic]

There are a few excellent reasons to go to school:
- your field has you using multi-million dollar equipment that you simply cannot access outside of the academic world
- you don't know what you want, and need someone to plot a course through life for you
- you can't read and need to be taught the alphabet

In this field, help-desk, databases, web-development are all the same:
- exceptionally well and accurately documented
- always using very inexpensive or free tools
- catering to intelligent people

If you want to learn web development, grab as many books as you like, read through MSDN and your favourite firefox wiki. Read, tinker, play. Read the HTML specifications. Keep playing. In school, you'd simply have shorter hours, and someone telling you to read chapter 1, then telling you to read chapter 2, then telling you to read chapter 3. Oh yeah, and they'd tell you that you read only 92% of chapter 2.

If you want to learn about databases, install mysql with about ten clicks, and read the mysql documention. It's not a puzzle, it's just a process. By the time you've read the, what 500 pages of syntax, you'll be able to play forever.

You don't need someone else telling you how to do something when it's written down. After all, there aren't that many people who know more about mysql than is written in the documentation. Maybe six of the people who built it. Everyone else simply read the documentation before you. Professors included. The story would be different if your goal were to build databases for enormous applications. But like I tell all of my clients when they ask if my selection of mysql as a database can meet their company's needs: "your company has 500 clients and 10 employees, the database world is concerned with millions of records. we'll talk again after your widget takes over manhattan".

The biggest reason to dodge formal education in these types of areas is that the curiculum is set-in-stone well before you start the course -- actually well before your sign up for the course, and even well before they decide to offer the course. So you're guaranteed to be learning old technologies. In this industry, six months counts as old. This all means that when you're done, and out, you won't have any confidence in your skills simply because you will not have used them in the real world. Academic assignments are useless.

So in the end, you'll have a very valuable piece of paper. It has the following values:
- you spent time and money to acquire it. that alone is an achievement recognized not only by many but will certainly be a point of pride for you.
- some others, namely .H.R. departments, look for that stuff. These are the same .H.R. departments that wanted 6 years of Java from me when Java was 2 years old. It's actually quite funny, or would be if it weren't so very very sad.

Clients will never ask you for credentials, or certificates, or diplomas, or degrees. Clients ask for guarantees, and you don't supply those either in our industry.

So if you really want to do something about your skills, then the following is what you truly desire:
- assistance (not guidance) in acquiring the skills
- a forum for testing and experimenting with those skills
- confidence in those skills
- an understanding of the applications of those skills

Then what you want is a job in a company where you will learn those skills on your own. Offer to work for very little pay. Either for businesses outside of the industry where they will benefit from whatever you actually can produce as you learn to produce it; or for a company in the industry who will gladly help to train you in the hopes that eventually you'll be good enou

Re:School is for people who can't read

[Anonymous Coward]

The biggest reason to dodge formal education in these types of areas is that the curiculum is set-in-stone well before you start the course -- actually well before your sign up for the course, and even well before they decide to offer the course. So you're guaranteed to be learning old technologies. In this industry, six months counts as old. This all means that when you're done, and out, you won't have any confidence in your skills simply because you will not have used them in the real world. Academic assignments are useless.
If the coursework is that dependent on specific tools/technologies and cannot be applied to what replaces them, that particular school is the problem, not school in general. What school did you go to that taught this way? Let us know so we can avoid it.

Re:School is for people who can't read

[jonaskoelker]

So you're guaranteed to be learning old technologies. In this industry, six months counts as old.

Java 1.5 was released after I took Introduction to Programming (with Java 1.4). Three years after taking the course, I was TA'ing said course, with Java 1.5. I don't know exactly how fast the course got upgraded, but I also used Java 1.5 in my compiler course (the year before TA'ing, two years after IntroProg).

Also, studying CS is not about learning ephemeral technologies but eternal principles. It's only incidental that we express the principles in the languages du jour.

I haven't seen the revolt against the Church-Turing thesis, or Rice's Theorem, or against search trees (in particular B-trees on the disk for file systems and DB indexes), or against regexp lexers and LALR(1) parsers, or against relational algebra, or...

Re:School is for people who can't read

[geminidomino]

I haven't seen the revolt against the Church-Turing thesis, or Rice's Theorem, or against search trees (in particular B-trees on the disk for file systems and DB indexes), or against regexp lexers and LALR(1) parsers, or against relational algebra, or...

The pigeon-hole principle was declared overly discriminatory and has been outlawed in a ruling based on anti-slumlord law.

Re:School is for people who can't read

[pz]

There are a few excellent reasons to go to school:

      - your field has you using multi-million dollar equipment that you simply cannot access outside of the academic world

      - you don't know what you want, and need someone to plot a course through life for you

      - you can't read and need to be taught the alphabet

You've missed the most important one, no, strike that, two reasons to go to school. The primary reasons that schools exist at all.

Reason 1: Most people need to have a curriculum laid out in front of them by someone who is smarter, often older, and wiser than them (because, do I really have to point this out?, they are looking to study the subject, and by definition cannot know enough about it to design a proper curriculum themselves). In addition, most people also benefit very well from an external source of motivation: if someone else tells you, "do this by Tuesday at 10am," most -- not all, but most -- people will be more apt to get it done by the prescribed time than if they do it themselves. Maintaining motivation, especially over the months-to-years timescale, is very difficult for all but a few.

Reason 2: Most people benefit greatly from being able to discuss new ideas with other people and getting feedback from people who are more experienced. If you're not at school, who's going to grade your problem sets and quizzes? Who are you going to discuss the pros and cons of different solutions? Yes, a select few people are talented enough to not need this (and I've been fortunate enough to have attended schools where I got to see these stars shine very brightly, but even they benefit from exchanging ideas with their select group of peers) but most people are not like that. Most people learn better with others who are doing the same thing.

The rest of the parent comment rails on how educational experiences are all too outdated to be worth anything. The only thing I can say is that it sounds like the parent poster had a very different educational experience than me. And, also, that the parent poster missed the biggest reason of all to go to school, which is not to learn a subject but to learn how to think. In my undergraduate program, for example, there was no course specifically in one language or another (why bother when, as my work-study boss put it, you can pick up C over the weekend?), and, though the program, we were expected to learn about a dozen different languages along the way. We weren't trained in C, Java, Perl, or whatever flavor of the month, but, instead, trained how to learn a language and quickly become proficient in it. That knowledge is timeless. If you are going to school to learn the minutia of a subject rather than its principles, your time is being wasted.

My advice to the OP: keep your job, as they're hard to find at present, and get into a part-time educational program somewhere nearby, either evenings or weekends. But be prepared to spend some time finding a good program that teaches not this or that specific tool, but how tools work, and from this knowledge, you'll be able to use any tool at all.

Re:School is for people who can't read

[holophrastic]

If there's a way to do something in MySQL 4, and that's what they are teaching, and part-way through the course MySQL 5 is released that renders the task useless, they still teach the version 4 task.

Professors can't simply drop entire units/chapters/sections when a new version is released.

Re:School is for people who can't read

[holophrastic]

And not one employer, or client, cares about your opinions of Rice's Theorem. All of that is to get you or keep you interested as a well-rounded student who may slide into a related sub-field.

Re:School is for people who can't read

[holophrastic]

The motivation aspect is valid, although rediculous that intelligent people worth anything need to be supervised / baby-sat to ensure that they do SOMETHING THAT THEY CHOOSE TO DO!

Benefitting greatly from discussing with other people, no shit, of course. That doesn't mean academic schooling -- that means schooling like fish. I spend loads of time with others in my industry. I don't require anything formal to do so. Conferences, convensions, friends, employees, competitors, clients. Call people, and they'll talk. Oh yeah, and fora, both on-line and off-line. Hey, I'm not at school now, and we're talking here.

Finally learning how to think is something that's very important. Good news. Long ago I was taught how to learn to think. So now, whenever I need to learn to think, I can teach myself. That's a skill that was taught to me somewhere around grade 7, when I got my first real paying job.

I believe the old webmonkey article said something like: "A client asked me to build a shopping cart. I said sure, I'll build you a shopping cart. Notice I didn't say that I knew how to build a shopping cart." That was a long time ago.

Starting a business really presses you to train yourself to do just about anything. And the first anything is to be capable of finding the resources necessary to learn anything.

Re:School is for people who can't read

[pz]

The motivation aspect is valid, although rediculous that intelligent people worth anything need to be supervised / baby-sat to ensure that they do SOMETHING THAT THEY CHOOSE TO DO!

Sorry, can't pass up the opportunity: like learning to spell?

Benefitting greatly from discussing with other people, no shit, of course. That doesn't mean academic schooling -- that means schooling like fish. I spend loads of time with others in my industry. I don't require anything formal to do so. Conferences, convensions, friends, employees, competitors, clients. Call people, and they'll talk. Oh yeah, and fora, both on-line and off-line. Hey, I'm not at school now, and we're talking here.

You're saying you do this on a daily basis, over a protracted period of time, on a single focused set of subjects? Doubtful. I attend professional conventions, seminars and meetings regularly as part of my continued education, even organizing my own, and they pale in comparison to a properly designed curriculum. An educational experience might not have been all that worthwhile for you, but it certainly is worthwhile for the vast majority of people who elect to attend school at the levels we're discussing.

Finally learning how to think is something that's very important. Good news. Long ago I was taught how to learn to think. So now, whenever I need to learn to think, I can teach myself. That's a skill that was taught to me somewhere around grade 7, when I got my first real paying job.

Sorry, you're asserting that a seventh grader has already learned to think at the graduate level? Perhaps there are one or two instances of this world-wide, perhaps, but having spent the majority of my life in educational institutions of one form or another, I can assure you that graduate students are still being trained how to think, despite having much deeper and more developed abilities than grade school students. Your assertion is absurd on the face of it.

Starting a business really presses you to train yourself to do just about anything. And the first anything is to be capable of finding the resources necessary to learn anything.

And yet you didn't recommend that option to the OP. Why?

The OP has an entry-level position that he is growing out of. The current economy is horrible, doubly so for startups. The best bet for the OP is to continue working and, at the same time, to acquire additional skills that, if they are not appreciated by his current employer will stand him in good stead with a new employer. While some people -- a small minority -- are able to acquire such skills on their own, the vast majority are better off in a classroom setting.

That is not to say that all classroom settings are superior, or even worthwhile. Many are horrid. Many are good for not much more than passing certification tests or similar vocational milestones, or even catching up on sleep. I would advise the OP to away from these and find one that emphasize teaching, even if it takes a few tries to find the right program.

Re:School is for people who can't read

[LordActon]

If you want to learn about databases, install mysql with about ten clicks, and read the mysql documention. It's not a puzzle, it's just a process.

That's terrible advice. Relational databases are neither puzzle nor process, they're math and logic. Unlike practically anything else in software, they have a scientific underpinning. Learn the theory. Then apply it.

If you get a copy of MySQL or Microsoft Access and putz with it, You'll sooner or later find your way around, sure enough. But what will you know? How to use version Y of product X. Great. Not only will your knowledge be obsolete in a year, but it's inapplicable everything else. And you'll be whistling in the dark, because you'll know how but not why.

A man that knows how to do something will always have a job. The man who knows why will always be his boss.

So. Start with Chris Date's introduction to databases. Just read it. Then get yourself some software and a problem to solve. Don't make something up; find a friend or nonprofit or a small business somewhere, someone you know or that a friend knows, who needs something solved. Ideally it's a report or other batch process, not an interactive data-entry system, because that simplifies your work and lets you focus on the data aspect.

Attack the data end first, carefully, applying what you learned. Diagram your logical model and explain it to the user. (I find people can understand E-R diagrams and normalization well enough to facilitate discussion. Sometimes there are "too many tables", but they usually accept when it needs that, it looks it up there.) Normalize until you're sure you've got it right. That's the "process" that matters.

By the time you're done — before you're done, really — you'll have learned more about database design and application development than most people do in college. You'll actually know something about Relational theory and normalization (not the same thing). And you'll have a reference for your next job.

Re:School is for people who can't read

[Anonymous Coward]

The biggest reason to dodge formal education in these types of areas is that the curiculum is set-in-stone well before you start the course

You seem to have some understanding of undergraduate education. Taking a master's degree is generally a prolonged research project, not just a continuation of undergraduate classes. The student will be the one setting the curriculum, in cooperation with his or her major professor.

It's okay to be anti-intellectual. Just be honest about it.

Re:School is for people who can't read

[holophrastic]

I don't care to both type here quickly and carefully. It's one or the other, and I don't have the time to check my typing -- it's also not required for the error-rate at full-speed typing. But cudo's.

I do, on a daily basis, always. That's a big part of my professionalism. I have a community of friends (I mean real ones, actually), and competitors that sit down to do exactly that, usually weekly with each.

I'm not saying that in grade 7 I could think like a graduate. I'm saying that at grade 7 I was taught to learn to think. So in grade 8 I learned to think like a grade 8, and as a business owner I learned to think as a business owner, and still don't need additional help to teach myself.

I can't recommend to the OP to start his own business. I've stopped doing that. It's like hang-gliding. The first rule is that you're not allowed to convince someone else to do it. It's amazingly safe, and great, and relaxing, and wonderful, but if you've been convinced, they won't even let you start.

Same with business. It's a huge undertaking of time, effort, money, frustration, and doubts. If it's not the only thing that you want to do, then you shouldn't even think about starting.

Re:School is for people who can't read

[holophrastic]

I thought I was including fora and on-line communities when I said mysql documentation, but you're certainly right when it comes to finding a friend or such with an actualy real-world problem to solve. And that's the first thing that's missing in formal education -- until the co-op job, which aligns you for untrusted, short-term, no-accountability, no-credit work.

Re:School is for people who can't read

[DrgnDancer]

The purpose of higher education is not to teach you how to merge tables in MySQL 4, it's to teach how relational databases work and what it means to merge tables. You might use MySQL 4 as a teaching tool, to demonstrate the concept involved, but no one expects that you'll be necessarily using the same tool or the same version in the real world. Algorithms are algorithms, database structures (mostly) are universal across relational databases. The implementation can be changed from language to language, database product to database product, or version to version sure, but the concept remain the same.

A person with a degree in computer science is certainly not going to be an expert in every programming language, database product, or operating system you might use. What they are (or should be, assuming a good program) is highly trained in the theoretical basis behind algorithm design and analysis, database design, and operating system and network fundamentals. Picking up the specifics of your environment will be quicker for them than for some kid you pulled off the street. They'll also know more than whatever stove pipe you put them in. So that (for instance) when you hire a kid to be a programmer, he'll know a bit about operating systems to, so he can intelligently articulate his needs to the systems administrator.

University is not tech school. You're not supposed to come out knowing how to use the latest version of MySQL or the latest buzzword compliant programming language. You're supposed to have the basis to learn whatever you need for your career.

Progression

[acehole]

Usually:

Hell Desk -> Desktop Support then branching off to Sys admin, DB admin, Network admin.

Edumacation is the way to go, its a wise investment.

Options

[Anonymous Coward]

I have been in many different aspects of I.T. from the HP helpdesk to a mom and pop repair shop and a network admin at a bank (current). I can tell you the scenery may change but the actual job does not you will still have end users asking questions and expecting help for some pretty strange and annoying things sometimes. It's the nature of the beast. I seem to think that any faucet of this industry will have that as it is community driven IE: people asking questions.

Re:Options

[Bat Country]

From the faucet of this industry pours dim waters.

work at a university while going there

[Cheezlbub]

you could go back to school & work at the university while you're there. Generally, the IT Departments at universities are pretty big and they give you a good idea of anything you're going to encounter. At my university when someone shows initiative and they're competent and not a douche they pretty much always get the chance to prove themselves - ymmv, but I get the impression that quite a few universities are like this.

If you get on as a student, that's cool, part time, focus on school, show some initiative and try to get a full time job

If you get on as a full timer - awesome for you - most universities offer pretty good benefits, a lot of them include stuff like tuition wavers (full or partial - either way, you're going to end up paying less.)

and finally, working at a university IT department doesn't necessarily mean being in a support role -

our it department has an application development group, a services group (support), a project management group, a system administration/network admin group, a business group that handles contracts & such with other departments/companies, a research computing group (super computers), a dedicated security group, an administration group (payroll), and an HR group. Of those, sysadmins, services, and app devs have to do support. Everyone else is only rarely customer facing. The likelihood that you're going to get into the non-support groups right away is pretty slim, but movement has a tendency to be really fluid.

In case you didn't get the main point of this - the important thing is showing initiative. Show that you're interested in doing something new and interesting - show it by talking to people who do it already and trying to shadow them. Work with your bosses to get involved in projects, do things to get noticed. =)

Re:work at a university while going there

[Anonymous Coward]

I've worked for two private colleges in my career. They were by far the most enjoyable places I've worked. They are also the two places where I was summarily dismissed for no apparent reason, by bureaucrats who were accountable only to their buddies in the administration, in both cases because the only employees they worry about keeping are the academics, and it was less hassle (for them) to fire me than to talk to me. So there's good points and bad points to working in academia.

Re:work at a university while going there

[Anonymous Coward]

Word of advice, however. Avoid Washington State. They're one of the states who has just decided that the correct reaction to the current budget shortcomings caused by ludicrous spending and widespread unemployment should be addressed by cutting all funding to higher education. As a result, getting a student job will be exceptionally difficult during the next 2-3 years, and getting a state job will most likely require chloroforming somebody who already has the job and shoving them in a closet.

Big fish, small pond

[lymond01]

With a 200 person law firm, you're probably the lowest of 2 or 3 people. Find a position somewhere where you're the jack-of-all-trades -- you do the tech support, server management, web development, purchasing, etc. You'll work long hours because the tech support prevents focused work on the other things, so be prepared. But you'll learn alot if you're driven and you can finally have "Server Administration" or "Web Design" on your resume. It won't get you into Google, but experience may get you a junior admin job.

To find this entry level everything job, look at 100 person or less businesses or colleges. Colleges will be easier as they aren't money driven.

Alternatively, in this job market, go to school.

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[holophrastic]

Wow, you know what, I totally agree. You can ignore my large post elsewhere here about learning on your own. I agree, run. I double-agree, run to plumbing.

Depends on what you want to do

[_Hellfire_]

It really depends - do you want to do a technical role? Or do you want to move into management. Here's assuming you want to stay in IT.

If you want to do a technical role, I'd second a few of the suggestions here that you should download a 'nix, install some tools and learn everything there is to know about that particular technology. Bonus points for picking something that can be carted cross-platform (SQL, XML etc).

Then you can start applying for junior roles in other companies "We require a junior DBA working on MS-SQL and Oracle...". If you're good enough, you won't stay junior for long. The software is out there and it's all free - start learning it!

If you want to move into management, you generally have two career paths - managing technology or managing people. Managing technology requires you to learn about things like data centre operations, Capacity Management, Availability Management, cost accounting and charging etc etc. All these things go into making the technology side hum ie "the hardware is working properly, and we know we can pay for it now, and in the future". Companies are screaming for this type of management as they realise that the old reactive model of bodging it up to get it working now, and panic buying stuff they don't really need isn't working. They're looking for people who can formulate an IT strategy and make it work in the real world.

If you want to manage people, then start looking at leadership books, guides and education. Do you want to manage a helpdesk (didn't think so). Maybe the relevant institute of management has a short course that you could do.

I made it past the helpdesk. I started off after high school building PCs and crawling under desks with CAT-5 between my teeth. I did that for 5 years, then was a sysadmin for a web hosting company for a year, then a service desk operator for 2, then a process specialist for another year. I've been in my current role as a process manager for just over a year making 6 figures.

It can be done, but you need to differentiate yourself. Lots of guys can fix a printer - but to really add value, figure out which companies are looking to extend themselves from a reactive environment to a proactive customer focussed one, and jump on board.

Find a new career. Or don't...

[0311]

I started out as a phone rep on the floor of a credit collection department. Because I liked to build computers and was interested in programming, I began building a relationship with the LAN team/help desk. I got a certification, then applied for an open position. I enjoyed it but it left me wanting more than unjamming stuff and rebooting computers for clueless users. Even though I didn't mind the work (I don't stress out very easily) I knew I could go further. I began taking programming classes and began proactively taking on scripting tasks and small programming assignments to make my job and the jobs of those around me a lot easier. I jumped at every chance to learn something new, even if it wasn't fun or interesting. I was always eager to learn. When the opportunity opened up to become an intern programmer, I applied and was accepted. Meanwhile, I got an associates in software engineering and began taking classes to complete a B.S. in comp sci. At this point, I realized I would never move up as fast as I wanted to with that company so I bailed and took a similar (lateral move) position with G.E. as a web developer. I began taking classes in web development, earned 2 of the 4 Java certs that were available at the time and finished my degree. Then they laid me off! Eight days before Christmas when we were expecting our 3rd child only a month later! Turns out, it was the best thing to happen. Forty-five days later I was offered a job in another state with a generous move bonus and a slight raise. Thirteen months later I moved yet again to another company. It was then that I realized I didn't really like computers so I took some pre-med classes, volunteered at a local emergency room (on Friday nights until midnight and sometimes later, the stories I could tell!!) and took the MCAT (3 times). Now I am between my 1st and 2nd year in med school and I love it. I would never have thought I would be a physician, especially not at nearly 40 years old with 4 kids and a big mortgage, but everything is working out. Here are the points of my rather long story:
1) work hard and learn continually
2) always look for a better situation and be prepared to get out of your comfort zone to obtain it
3) be receptive to new experiences in different areas that might later bear fruit
4) work hard and learn continually.

It could be much worse...

[croddy]

You could be working with George.

Re:It could be much worse...

[xtracto]

You could be working with George.

THAT is hilarious... I like almost all of them, but the one at:
this page
"####### called and said he has broken his dongle, He would like a replacement"

Made me laugh so hard!

Thanks for the laugh croddy.

Fuck You

[Wabbit Wabbit]

You know what? My excellent karma be damned.

How about you help desk workers actually solve some shit for a change. I'm tired of calling the help desk (be it corporate or extra-corporate like my cellphone provider) and never getting anything fixed. I don't give a damn about where you want to get to or what (or who) you think you're supposed to be. That's precisely the problem. You're worried about where you think you're supposed to be instead of getting your fucking job done. Fuck you. To high holy hell. Solve some goddamn problems instead of whining. Or don't work the fucking helpdesk if that's not where you want to be.

Guess what. I don't give a fuck about you or your career, any more than I do the corner mechanic. Solve my fucking computer problems. That's it. That's what you're paid to do. That's what I call you for. That's your job. Goddamn fucking do it. For once. Okay?

Re:Fuck You

[gustolove]

The amount of IT knowledge it takes to get a job in most help desk positions is minimal. Most companies cycle through so many people frustrated with their unrewarding careers that the management is happy as long as the first tier can clear browser cache. Hell, they're happy if someone is answering the phone in a friendly manner... all of the troubleshooting steps these days are put into "Knowledge Bases" in which their 'trained' technicians follow the step by step procedures to try and fix the issue. The REAL Tech support isn't reached until the 2nd or 3rd level normally... and still at that point some of the idiots sneak through the filters and make it into the upper tiers

Re:Fuck You

[Anonymous Coward]

I work the desk, and I generally find reward in helping people out. I know my field and get things fixed, and I do my best to show understanding for the frustration that usually arises out of needing to call out for assistance.

But occasionally there's some prick who acts like I'm his personal computer fixing bitch that deserves to be fucked-to-high-holy-hell becausing he can't send his goddamned email. That person can blow steam out of his ears all day; he's last on my priority list.

Re:Fuck You

[Wabbit Wabbit]

Um...yes. I know that. Hence my rant. I don't know how this topic even made the front page; no clue as to how it got greenlit. Some tier 1 jockey whining about his job? Hardly worthy of a slashdot front page article. In all my years here as a lurker and member I've rarely seen such dross make it past the mods. Slow news day I guess.

Re:Fuck You

[rusty0101]

You're presuming that a person in an entry level job at a company who's software or hardware you have been using for some arbitrary amount of time, (5 min to 5 years) knows more about the issue that you're encountering right now, than you've been able to discern.

Yes, that is what they signed up to do. Hopefully they have a usable dataset of historical problems and solutions that they can access, and know how to search, that will give them a fast and easy solution to your issue.

The reality is that at most help desks you get a computer, an introduction to the application you are supporting, and a walk through on how to create a ticket. If you're lucky, you learn how to make the phone system do what you need it to do. If you're very lucky, the ticketing system is search able for more than a history of the tickets you've touched. If someone brilliant at the company you are working for has taken the time and put in the effort, you have a web based search tool available that will go through a data set that you and your peers provide input into, identifying what a problem does, and how to resolve it, including telling the user that it is a known flaw in the application and that it is being worked on if that is the appropriate response.

Also if you are very lucky, there are people looking at the systems that people are reporting issues on, and are actively working on replacing equipment with a defined history of problems, and software that has been updated solving known problems. In all to many cases, the company involved thinks that it's cheaper to just let the help desk monkey take the calls, and send out people to service the equipment.

Re:Fuck You

[Wabbit Wabbit]

I do realize that. And as does any technical person (and no doubt average slashdot reader), I try as quickly as possible to get past tier 1 and up into the ranks of the people who know better.

My sole issue is with the fact that such a terrible story (article? rant? question? discussion) made it to slashdot's front page to begin with. This is hardly the kind of thing I expect to see there, and if the submitter actually made it so far as to get his story (article, rant, question, discussion) posted, he'd better damn well be ready to deal with the typical slashdot reader.

Really now. Some yutz whines about tech support on a forum where most of us have a dim view of tech support, and others have had nothing but bad experiences with tech support? (go ahead, read back a few months/years. Check out some articles and comments. I'll wait)

I don't post much. And usually not so vehemently. But this crap really struck a chord, and I just couldn't let it slide. I had to say what at least a few of us were thinking.

Re:Fuck You

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing is, the submitter wasn't soliciting opinions from disgruntled lusers. His question was clearly addressed to those who are "where he's supposed to be." Like it or not, that helpdesk is nothing but a stepping stone, and you should be grateful for whatever little help you do end up getting. Nobody gives a fuck about your cellphone, or your computer problems, or your career advice. Nobody gives a fuck whether you give a fuck. And nobody gives a fuck about your "excellent karma"- except me. See, I was the person who modded you troll, and I was the person who bookmarked your user page, and I am the person who's going systematically mod down your posts, regardless of merit. Have a nice day, asshole ^_^

Re:Fuck You

[Anonymous Coward]

What a whining bitch.

Just from your post I can tell the cause of most of your issues, but first I want to say that really you're just some fucking douchbag who thinks he know what's going on when in reality you don't have a goddamn clue. You know just enough about computers to really get one good and fucked up, but you don't know shit about getting it right again, otherwise you wouldn't be calling the help desk. If you're so fucking smart, fix it yourself asshole, you broke it. The reason nobody wants to help you is because you're a dick. And you think everybody owes you something. You're exactly the reason everybody hates working the helpdesk, and you're also exactly the caller that everybody on the helpdesk loves to fuck. The helpdesk is there to help, just look, it's even in the name, if you just want to bitch and whine and cry and scream and holler and complain, then get a fucking dog or go beat your wife again, because nobody at the helpdesk gives a shit. They will go out of their way to give you as little help and advice as possible, and then sit around laughing about it after they got you pissed off enough to hang up.

As far as your computer issues, I can state with 100% accuracy that the root cause of 95% of your problems sit squarely between the keyboard and the chair.

Problem solved, ticket closed.

Re:Fuck You

[Anonymous Coward]

Yours is exactly the type of attitude that makes the job miserable for the people on the "HELL DESK".
.
The accepted business model for computer support does not fit your expectation. If you want to see change, you need to convince the people that pay for the service that a change makes sense.
.
My guess is that you are a fairly competent computer user. This indicates that your problems you face are not likely to be trivial. Your competence level in computing means that you are likely to fix the trivial/obvious problems yourself.
.
You seem to expect entry level people (little training, little experience, or maybe not so bright, who are paid on par with janitors) to be able to come up with the fix for the non-trivial problem that you most likely already tried to fix yourself (and failed). And, you expect this problem to be solved immediately.
.
I don't see this as a reasonable expectation.
.
Heres the obligatory crappy car analogy:
.
You drive a car, and the check engine light comes on. You know enough about your car to check under the hood for anything obviously wrong (low engine oil, etc.). You don't find anything obvious, so you call your corner mechanics garage.
.
The person that answers the phone asks you to check the oil, and look for any wires, hoses, or tubes, that may have come loose. You respond saying that you already did. Nothing obvious appears wrong. You have probably just exhausted the mechanical knowledge of this person.
.
He/she tells you to bring the car in, and they will have a knowledgeable mechanic look at it as soon as they can, but there are three cars ahead of yours.
.
Your attitude seems to be that you would expect whoever answers the phone at the corner garage to diagnose the problem immediately, and correctly, even though they are not knowledgeable mechanics. (If they were knowledgeable mechanics, their talents would not be wasted on answering the phone, they would be fixing cars, as it pays better.)

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[anexkahn]

Installing Fiber is a bit like being a plumber I suppose

Do both!

[Anonymous Coward]

After six years, my first post. Excuse my lack of sarcasm and obvious sincerity - I will get better. You are in one of the most grueling roles in the business, but an excellent training ground for your future. Since you apparently have an undergraduate degree, I'd focus on developing a specific IT skill - UNIX is indeed a good next step for a help desk guy, as is internetworking. If you want to move into the CIO ranks, you'd be wise to both broaden and deepen your skill set, especially in the area of enterprise software development (stay Web, kid...). My guess is you're young and have time - work on the Masters degree part time, use your current job to hone your interpersonal skills and understanding of your business. These are the truly indispensible abilities for any job, and there are far too few people who have them in IT. And good luck - it's a fun and rewarding profession.

Treat this as an opportunity.

[Photo_Nut]

I answered the phones and staffed the front desk at the student help desk when I was in college. It was the best paid student job on campus - $10 per hour your first semester, and a lot of the time you weren't busy and could surf the net or do your homework. There were a few other Computer Science majors there with me, and we got to help out all levels of student, faculty, and staff with their problems. What I took away from that job is not that I dislike working in the service industry, but rather, that there were certain universal truths about end users that I couldn't learn about anywhere else.

The help desk is your opportunity to study the areas where computers and human interactions break down. Learning computer skills in some high level language like Java or C# while working at the help desk is a way to advance your career. Start out with a book, but have goals in mind. Computer Science education is all about leading you to the water. Buy or borrow a few good books, classic computer science texts, etc. Work through the examples and do the exercises when you're not on the phones.

Most importantly, design some UI on paper (I like graph paper for this because you draw a lot of boxes in designing UI). Figure out what you *want* the program to do when you click the buttons. Then use a free program like ant or Visual C# Express and build the UI. Take apart the generated code. Look at it. Study it. Solve a problem that is interesting to you. Do it for fun. If you don't enjoy making programs, then Computer Science is simply not for you. There are plenty of people in CS departments who are very smart and study very hard, but their heart is just not in it. You can tell because they stop writing software when the day is done.

If you want to practice on Linux and you have Windows, you can download Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 (free) or VMWare player (also free) and install Ubuntu on a virtual drive. Put that virtual drive on a USB key chain or iPod, and you have a mobile development platform that you can take home. The internet is full of human knowledge on the subject of Computer Science and other computer topics. A degree from a reputable college or university is not necessarily a requirement.

But you need to prove to most engineering firms that you have what it takes, and the best paying jobs ($75K+ benefits) usually require solid interviewing and development demonstrations with someone who has 5 to 25 years of development experience and typically a Bachelors or advanced degree in Computer Science, Computer Engineering, Math, Physics, or something equally challenging. A degree won't get you in the door though. We see tons of people straight out of college with their Sc.B. degree who can't solve a problem involving a linked list, binary search on an array, binary search tree, hash table, dealing with memory management, and many other problems you need to be able to solve on your own as an engineer.

I started writing code sometime around the age of 6 in the early 80's because I wanted to make a game. I ended up discovering that game writing is interesting, but what I love to write are tools that interact with pixels and musical notes. Software engineering can be grueling work. In my best weeks, I write hundreds of lines of code. In my worst weeks, I spend long hours debugging and poking and proding and pulling out all the tricks, but get no closer to solving a bug which eventually is found to be something trivial in another part of the code. Highs are higher than in technical support, but lows are awfully low, too.

Electronic Medical records

[hypercube24]

With the huge government stimulus for EMR you may find this a busy field in the near future. Check out some of the companies working on this. Doctors are scrambling to implement the mandate to "digitize" their records and this may be an opportunity. I have been assisting local docs in their offices, it is interesting. Some of the systems they are using are genuine antiques ( I am working on getting some of the data from a 15 year old Unix machine, it is still spinning and has a "huge" 100 meg hd with patient information in a proprietary format!). A real challenge will be getting all the new medical records systems to talk to each other and transfer information, integrate lab tests into the data base and so on. Google has a "medical record" online system which is very clumsy, and if this is the best they can do there is room for real innovation in this field. Dr B

Figure out what you want then go for it

[al0ha]

If you have the brains and the talent, anything is possible in IT; as long as you really enjoy it.

In my opinion which is based on prospective employee interviewing experiences, anything below a PhD in technology doesn't mean much. The real question you should be asking yourself is, "Are you self-motivated, creative and talented? Are you able to solve unique problems on your own? Do you need someone to hold your hand?"

If the answer to the first two are yes and the second no; why waste your money? Personally I have a HS education and have had several great paying jobs in IT. Since I didn't spend a crapload to get a degree, I am way ahead of my counterparts that did. How did I do it? Well I discovered I had an aptitude for coding and more importantly problem solving and then I worked my ass off for a number of years. I just ate it up, couldn't get enough, HTML, DHTML, then Perl, C, Java, Shell, etc.

I padded my self education with some formal education in Unix and C programming at the university level, and even more importantly, I found a brilliant person who was able to serve as a mentor of sorts.
I am not saying my way is the right way for you or anyone; but it was for me and so I thought I'd share it. So good luck in whatever you choose!

Make your job redundant

[amirulbahr]

The best way to get a promotion is to make your job redundant, or to get ready to start training your replacement. You employer will be grateful and should reward, but even if they don't then your prospects on the job market will be much improved.

Oh, and the next best tip is to learn a Unix (or Linux) some other poster said above.

Re:Make your job redundant

[mozzis]

Take the Microsoft MSCE courses as often as you can afford to. You learn a lot and have the certification to put on resume.

it depends. do you clock watch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the Helpdesk sucks. I started doing it 15 years ago at the school I went to making a whopping 7.50 an hour. Within a year I was administrating systems on the campus. Why? Because I busted my ass. An example, we had an old Vax that was crapping out and had to do an emergency upgrade to an Alpha server. I stayed up the entire night with the Admins and learned. I then cracked open the extremely dry manuals for VMS. Always take the time of crisis and turn it into an opportunity. If there is an Administrator who's going through a rough time, ask if you can watch / help.

Worst case, get some VM's set up and see if you can bogart some copies of various Microsoft titles off of TechNet, or set up your own linux box. Talk to your boss and tell him that you want to learn and ask him to create an environment for you to learn and test new skills. See if you have old Cisco equipment and learn how to configure it. With google as your companion, you can learn to do many different tasks and use them as a foundation to grow upon.

If your boss is not able to create that environment, then maybe it is not a right fit. I personally have taken marketing majors straight from college with no formal IT experience and flipped them into very good jobs as short as a year later. I don't think of myself as anyone special, but if you don't have someone who is invested in your growth, then you should look somewhere else for employment.

If certifications are your thing, then study for them. But please do yourself a favor and don't memorize the book, actually learn it. In the past I have interviewed people with certifications, particularly Microsoft and wind up dancing circles around them in a tech interview because all they did was memorize.

And it also comes down to what I like to call a clock watcher. I typically have three types of staff members. 1) The ones who are out the door by 5pm 2) The ones who will only stay when shit hits the fan and or have deadlines 3) The ones who are committed to learning as much as possible no matter what and will hang with me during a crisis to learn. I can assure you that if you are in the first category, you should rethink your career..because it is obvious that this is something you don't love.

Lastly, I hate to break it to you, but even after working 15 years in IT, the CEO will call you and ask for help with his Blackberry because he doesn't have time to deal with the help desk. It's the nature of the job.

Be nice

[Anonymous Coward]

To people in other departments who get paid better and still do interesting stuff. Fix their stuff quickly and be helpful. If you make contacts like this who respect you and your work ability and ethics, then its highly possible one of them will let you know when something in their area is coming up. Being the team leader (or teams) preferred candidate is much more of an in than having umpteen qualifications in your CV but not much in the way of demonstrable people skills. Works for me and I have A+ (which I got _after_ I got into technical support).

Of course, if you have no skills AND no qualifications and are just likeable, then it probably wont help (much).

You've already quit, so why ask slashdot?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously? Only one year? I was "helldesking" for a solid 7+ years at various companies. This is what I learned:

Learn some f*ing patience. Yeah, talking to you, you pansy. Can't cut the front lines? Not cut out for IT. 'Nuff said.

Consider alcoholism or Tai Chi - it makes your friends much more interesting or it beats throwing a brick at a wall every night. Don't mingle both together, that is an OR and not an AND. At least exercise and eat properly; minimize caffeine intake to one a day.

Diversify your skill set. Any monkey can answer phones and tell customers to 'shut up and reboot'. It takes a pro to talk down an angry customer with soft skills and convince them that it's not a big deal while frantically googling for answers.

Get ITIL (foundations v3) certified. It seems to be the buzzword lately on resumes, or at least it was the last time I was job hunting.

Awe screw it. May as well change your major to business management with technology background or somethingrather. Watch Byte Club http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-470377682871831148 at least ten or so times. I've seen too many business management people that think they can use a mouse and keyboard effectively to get what the think is 'work' done.

As for me? I learned OS/2. Yes, go ahead and laugh. Laugh all you want. But remember this: helpdesks are there to weed out the weak and feeble .

Re:You've already quit, so why ask slashdot?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't mingle both together, that is an OR and not an AND.

I think you mean XOR. Not cut out for IT? ;)

Seriously....apply for non-helpdesk jobs.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Apply for *every* non-helpdesk job that you think you might be able to do without totally f*cking it up.... as any job you don't apply for, you are 100% guaranteed not to get.

Have at least 5-10 applications in-progress at any time, more if you can cope with the paperwork. Applying for 50 or more jobs before you get one is OK, but if you apply for 50 jobs without ever getting short-listed, then you are doing something seriously wrong.

Keep a complete folio of all applications/CVs/resume's you send out, and try to improve it every time you send one out..

Personalise it to every application, with cover letter, and emphasising your more-relevant skills:
  - If applying for a programming job, writing code as a hobby is more important than 10 years on a helpdesk.
  - If you are applying for a manager position in a help-desk-centre, being presentable, well spoken and worldly is more important that 10 years on the helpdesk phone.

Lieing about your skills, or stretching the truth a little can help too, but only if you have the ability to follow-through and learn about product X before such time as you are asked about it. :-)

The Taxonomy of IT professionals is as follows...

[Anonymous Coward]

Engineerus Originalus:

At the very pinnacle of the IT world, these are the people who invent the things that the rest of the IT world relies on for THEIR jobs. The ones who truly deserve the word "engineer" in their job titles. They work for places like Intel, Google, Microsoft, Cisco, etc. Getting here requires nothing less than a Master's degree.

Managerius Pseudogeek:

These people got a four-year CS degree and jumped straight into the job market. They lack the rigors of graduate school, and the practical knowledge that comes with real job experience and/or industry certifications. A lot of front-line software developers fall into this category, though all the really good ones actually belong to the species Scholarus Basementi (see below). In a healthy and growing economy, these folks can get jobs in a variety of fields, from webdev to DBA. In a down economy, they are frequently passed over by experienced people who are already in the industry and desperate to do whatever is necessary to stay there. It should be noted that this species belongs to the Genus Managerius because four-year degrees carry power in the corporate world, but these individuals lack the real intellectual rigor to rise to the top of their fields technically. This leaves middle management as the usual endpoint for their careers.

Genericus Certificans:

Probably the single largest species of IT professional, they bear a great superficial resemblance to Scholarus Basementi but lack the distinctive colors, odors, and sounds that Basemeni uses to distinguish itself when interacting socially. Many have two year Associate CS degrees, but the majority can be identified by the way they build their nests out of an accumulation of IT industry certifications. If you look inside their cubicle and find both Project+ AND "IBM Certified Solution Designer" certificates posted up then you know you've identified a Certificans. Older members of the species will still proudly display their Novell CNAs. Virtually all IT professionals with the word "Administrator" in their job title belong to this species, though the ones that self-identify as "BOFH" will desperately try to pass themselves off as Basmenti.

Scholarus Basmenti

This species is entirely self-taught, and their individual skill levels vary wildly. The less able members of this species frequently flock around the more advanced individuals in order to camouflage their weaknesses. These packs of Basmenti, led by an Alpha, are highly territorial and competitive. It is believed that their incessant desire to compete for control over FOSS projects or to get credit for "clever hacks" is rooted in their job insecurity. Those who are not unemployed are often found working entry-level helpdesk jobs. Those who do better economically are typically Alphas who went out and obtained a degree or an industry certification to validate their ample innate talents. Basmenti can easily be distinguished from Certificans when asked about their credentials. While Certificans will speak proudly of their achievements, Basmenti will ridicule their own credentials as "worthless paper" or boast about how they passed their exams hung over without bothering to study. Occasionally, especially talented Basmenti who also show aptitude forming healthy human relationships will be able to obtain Venture Capital and will eventually rise to the very top of the "Foo Chain." Once at this point, they will spend lots of the "Foo's" money to hire members of all three other species, who will look at the unschooled savant with naked resentment and envy.

Time is money...

[Anonymous Coward]

A shame that we IT people don't know how to negotiate worth a can of beans.

I've told fellow techs we should be half lawyer. That way we can negotiate better pay AND insure we get paid it.

If we told them to stuff it and went independent (when a user called because he couldn't print AND there was no internal IT) they'd be more than happy to pay a decent amount to get back to work. Likewise, if the network was down and you had a hundred employees twiddling their thumbs for an hour costing the company a bucket of cash. Again they'd be more inclined to pay an amount that lets you save for a retirement.

My advise is to get out of the industry and into something that pays better. Fiber splicing should be good for many years.

I work for a major helicopter manufacturer that farmed its IT out to some company that farmed out the hiring to another that farmed out the hiring to yet another. I get a flat rate with no raises and spotty hours. I know that the three layers of staffing above me are doing much better in the pay and bennies department for way less effort.

Bitter Tech Person

Excel in your role and network

[carlzum]

The help desk is a great entry-level position. You have the opportunity to interact with managers and executives, take advantage of it. Develop relationships with everyone you can, learn everything about the environment (applications, servers, business processes), and build a reputation as the company's "computer guru."

Decide what you want to do and don't be shy about discussing your goals while you're unjamming the VP's printer. When he/she asks how you're doing tell them "a little tired, I was up all night studying for my Oracle certification." Then apply your skills in your current role, even if it means working late. Do users have trouble keeping track of their database passwords? Develop something that applies their password changes to every system. When a position opens, you'll have a leg up on external candidates with more experience.

My question exactly

[Infin1niteX]

I graduate in May with an B.S. technical networking and security degree from Purdue and am currently wondering if going for certifications or a masters would help me find a better job during these fun economic times. Purdue currently offers a master in both my degree and computer science, but then there is also and MBA option that would allow you to get more into the management side of things, so I guess it depends on what you really want to do. Seems like most of the people here want to call the op an idiot or that he doesn't understand IT when all he seems to be asking is how do i go from being the mindless helpdesk guy that every takes for granted to a Network Admin type position. Which just the bosses take for granted.

Run like hell. Or suck it.

[Anonymous Coward]

srsly Pom Pom: you is better off as an English Literature major than where you is. There is no up from there. Do _anything_ else.

(I am making illiterate-person noise because I suspect I am speaking to an illiterate person. In case I'm not: no, really, the job you are working can only do damage to your resume. Quit immediately and do _anything_ else. Go back to school if you've a mind; hell, go work at Wal-Mart if that's your only other choice. Wal-Mart on a resume is forgivable, especially at your (implied) age. Helpdesk on your resume begets more helpdesk on your resume and _nothing_ else. Start running now. I am not kidding.)

(captcha: "reindeer")

Jpbs suck when you hate them, less if you don't

[herksc]

and with the weak job market it seems I can only move sideways into another support role

This is not always a bad idea. Even if there was room for progression at your current employer, if you do not enjoy working the helpdesk there, then you would not enjoy any IT position at that company. Helpdesk can be OK, if there is someone else successfully working to improve the issues that you constantly get called for. If you have an IT job with no user contact at all, then you are truly useless.

One problem in IT is that users and managers think that an IT department's job is only to fix problems. The real problem begins when an IT department thinks the same thing! Another is that people always expect managers to define their job, and managers are always looking for people that define their job. After being in IT for almost 10 years, I now enjoy it (working for a small company helps). I didn't enjoy it for the first few years.

In my opinion, IT is satisfying when you do this (not a complete list):
1. Decide that helping users means developing relationships with them, and convincing them that you respect them (This is called "customer service")
2. Decide that you are solely responsible for the company's use/lack of technology/systems
3. Communicate to your manager what your job function is for
4. Learn how your managers view their own job function
5. Be proactive, find solutions/systems, and financially justify them on "paper"
6. Work somewhere where your manager understands 1 through 5

That said, if you can afford school and you enjoy it, then do that.

get a job in a bigger company

[Anonymous Coward]

get a job in a bigger company. i was doing phone tech support for a while, then got my ass an interview at apple, worked on my team for a year and then became the go to person for all of the arcane shit that our team has to deal with. before long i was promoted and now i don't have to deal with run of the day problems, i just send those to the normal it guys. oh and my salary tripled in about 2 years.

Law Firms

[surfcow]

My two cents:

Worked for a law firm ten years ago. IT, LAN manager, sys admin, help desk, information officer, palm engineer, etc.

Every one of the senior partners (there were 8) felt that he was my sole manager. They all felt they knew more about IT than I did. They routinely countered each other, sometimes just for spite. Huge, puffy, bloated egos. Lots of SHOUTING and panic'd staff - stress was so high that you could literally smell it. Politics. One told me to convert their 1.2 million WordPerfect legal documents to MS-Word and gave me two months and no budget. They burned through IT people like lamp fuel. The geek before me lasted a year as a stress junkie and got cancer.

Absolute hell job, TOXIC. Quit after three weeks and good riddance.

I know, every business is different, etc, etc, but I have heard similar stories from other law firm sys admins. These people eat their own. Meet their families, I think you'll agree.

Talk to your IT manager... he might be able to hlp

[DaEMoN128]

It all depends on what your IT department is set up like. Are your networking / server people working hand in hand with you? System Engineers (the server sysadds at my job) work hand in hand with the Service desk. If you are qualified, can show experience, and have a well written resume.. they will look at you when a position opens up. Same with the networking engineers.

I was in your position back in Dec. I asked the IT manager if they were looking for people and on what teams. He replied that they were looking for NE's to work a hell shift (12's, 4 on , 4 off, nights). I got my resume together, started brushing up on my networking and interviewed for the job. I have a co worker who is in the same situation and they won't look at him. He is trying to get to the systems side of the house. He is a MCSE for 2k3 and can't even get an interview.....

There has to be an opening you can move into. Start working towards your trade certs (juniper, cisco, microsoft, etc.). It will be easier to get to an interview if you have the certs to back it up. You already have your foot in the door. IF you are good at what you do, management will have noticed. They are the ones to talk to about moving up into an open slot. If your companies turn over rate involves death... then you might want to put out a resume.

TIPS on your resume..
1. Proof read.
2. Tailor it to each job you are applying for.
3. Write a separate and distinct objective statement and cover letter for each application.
4. No huge blocks of texts. Make it easy on the eyes.
5. Take the skills listed in the job listing and make sure those words match in your resume, most HR departments do a key word search because they don't understand a tech resume.
6. Give a specific outline for your repsonibilites for each job... if they want to know more they will ask you in the interview.

Once you get to the interview.. the job is yours to lose.. not yours to gain.

Monkey Graduation

[vision2006]

I personally would be happy if I could get a competent help desk monkey, but unfortunately after downsizing, I was lucky enough to have help desk monkey added to my network admin responsibilities. I'm going to make some assumptions here: You already have a bachelors degree, your work pays all or part of certification and/or formal education, and you actually like IT work.

First thing you need to do is get exposure to some of the things you think you may like to do in IT. Read about them, talk to admins, dba's, etc. in your own company, or find someone in another company you could talk to about their work.

Once you have a good idea what you want to do, start going to school or training courses for it. Whether you choose online training, night classes, etc. is up to you, but education will help you move out of help desk work.
You will also need hands on work aside from just learning about the trade you pick, so I would suggest (as other have) to load software at home and start working with it. Hands on work is an excellent complement to book learning, and will ensure you know the material.

As far as dealing with your current job while you are working towards your goal, it would help if you changed your attitude towards your work. Instead of getting pissed that you have to unjam paper or help someone with their software, try showing the person how they can fix it themselves. If they don't want to learn it, then that's fine. I think most people would rather not have to call someone and wait for help if they can fix the issue on their own. Get creative. If you are working towards being a DBA or web designer, try setting up a self-service web site where the user can type in a problem and your program lists common fixes. It would be a great way to get the experience you need and definitely something to put on your resume.

Remember that there are a lot of people without jobs, some with families, that would kill to just be getting a steady paycheck. Be thankful.

simple and practical solution

[aardvark007]

If I were in your position, here is what I would do:
1) Find your dream job. Search job postings non-stop for a while. Figure out what which career you would enjoy the most.
2) Study the minimum and desired qualifications for each job.
3) Obtain the minimum and desired qualifications for each job. (Put an emphasis on written and oral communication skills)
4) Study the interview process (specific to your field of choice) and make friends/family give you mock interviews.
5) Apply for jobs. Remember to be optimistic and respectful. Don't appear desperate. Customize your resume for each application and write a custom cover letter for each application submission. Do not lie on your resume or you will be embarrassed during the interview.

Is a degree worth the time, effort, and money? If all of the job postings for your dream job require a degree, then absolutely. If not, then I think you know the answer.

Remember to take the initiative to acquire new skills and master them.
Good luck!

What worked for me..

[TheDarkener]

I was in a very similar situation when I was about 22 (I'm 29 now). I worked for a bank "holding" firm (which basically bought small community banks and used their resources to supposedly give bigger loans at any bank...but it seems their real motivation was to suck up as many smaller banks as possible, then sell the holding firm to Wells Fargo...go corporate!).

Anyway, I spent most of my days on the road for 3-4 hours, traveling to bank sites to do pretty lame things like install someone's keyboard and mouse. Given the job was kush, I got paid well, but...I felt like I was wasting my life away for money. I had a void that needed to be filled, and not by money. I decided to quit after 2 years, "Office Space" style (I literally said "Yeah...I'm just not going to come in anymore" to my bosse's boss on our Nextel phone..I felt so proud of myself). I had no idea what I was going to do, but I know I didn't want to waste more of my life being a well paid slave when I could be *learning* something.

I spent the next 2 1/2 years moonlighting as a residential/small business support person, living off of cheese sandwiches and Top Ramen. Sometimes I couldn't make the $330 rent portion from the 7 person house I lived in (we were all good friends). My friends understood and supported me, and I made it by the next week or so.

I wouldn't trade that for anything. While I was barely scraping by on my own, I was teaching myself Linux, making the house an iptables firewall machine for our 10+ computers (we wired the house for Ethernet ourselves as wireless wasn't as popular back then...and we wanted the bandwidth between each other ;) ). I taught myself some basic HTML and made my own company webpage. I did the government paperwork/red tape to start my own actual business. In the meantime, I picked up a part-time job at a much smaller firm doing some other really cool stuff, involving Linux. I learned even more by doing stuff there, and by the time I quit there I could support myself with my small-time support/consulting business.

I look back at the time I spent at the bank doing drone work when I really strived for something more, even for less money.. and I realized my time was worth much more. If you can seriously do it, do it now. You'll thank yourself later, seriously. Being in charge of how you work is much nicer than being told what to do, especially when you don't enjoy doing that stuff anyway. Some people totally love it, and that's cool - but it was definitely not for me long term, and I always kinda knew it. Just didn't want to admit it, because I had bills to pay.

Personal experience

[l0b0]

Having received my MSc in 2004, I'd say it's definitely worth it. Just watch it when getting a job afterward - There are places where you'd be doing the programming equivalent of unjamming printers (e.g., debugging business rule setups, running SQL queries that others created). Should probably note that I got the degree for almost no money (yay Norway), that I worked two years IT support at the university and loved it (university staff / students normally don't need help with jammed printers), and that I'm starting a PhD to get to the really interesting problems.

Re:Personal experience

[qc_dk]

Another benefit of formal education is contacts. You are going to make a lot of talented friends and if you are lucky they'll remember that you are that guy who is really good at databases/web design/etc.

All the jobs I've had since graduating I have gotten through my university contacts. Not that I haven't been offered positions when scouring the general job market, but every time something more interesting has popped up through university contacts.

you don't have a clue

[blackcoot]

it's pretty simple bud: if you think that databases or web development qualifies as a specialized comp. sci. area then you have either been mislead or are plain ignorant. more importantly, you should know that grad school is, generally, an extremely bad plan unless you're the peculiar kind of person that is really serious about your particular field. grad school will be _HELL_ if you don't love what you're doing. and to be honest, i don't think you love what you're doing.

Depend on yourself and not the company

[therealjohndoe]

Coming from a stressful helpdesk background I would say first don't give up and move back home as going backwards is the worst thing you can do to your career. Secondly depending on which area of the world you live in I would say that University degrees mean's squat over industry certifications/experience although they can be helpful for the first graduate. When I was in your situation I basically took the little amount of money I earned and self studied for the Cisco and Microsoft exams while playing around with Linux. Why would you need someone to show you how to do something when it is written clearly in cheap enough books ??. For Cisco there are cheap lab kits on ebay and for Microsoft exams you can practice by building a complete setup inside the virtualisation software of your choice virtualbox, Vmware, Xen you name it. You will find that once you become industry certified in a couple of technologies it greatly increases your chance of an interview as most companies require people with the same set of IT skills, once you get in the job you can then develop your talents, build contacts and decide on which technology you want to specialise in. Don't limit yourself by relying on the chance that you will get promoted in one company, take the active step and develop yourself so that many companies will actually consider you for an interview and want to hire you :)

Spruce up the resume and get involved with OSS

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to work at a school....for 3 years....if you think dealing with less than knowledgeable end users is tiresome, try dealing with kids. Not only do they not know a lot sometimes, but their blatant lack of respect for the equipment that you have placed in front of them is nothing short of shocking. Try outfitting an entire suite of computers, only to find mice ripped out and keyboards trashed, hdds stolen etc, and it's not like we didn't try to secure these things. At one point we enclosed the pcs themselves in a wooden surround. The kids just ripped out mice and keyboards, breaking the connections and cables.

I worked there for 3 years, moving up from IT technician (basically helpdesk for kids) to IT manager in about 2 years. When I got to the end I had nowhere else to move up to. I'd always heard it was hard to move out of education, but the truth was far worse than the rumour. First thing to do, spruce up the resume, get it onto some job sites. At the end of the day, if you're not happy in our job, you should really be looking to move. You're not doing yourself, or the business any good.

Also, I worked with open source for a while too in my spare time, this shows to the potential employer that you have a passion for technology. I'm not rebuking the MSc route, but to be fair, many people get MSc's, but not lal are passionate about technology, and use it just as a route to get a high paid job.

Bottom line, find something you enjoy doing, it will benefit both you and your business.

No point

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no point in going back to school. The coursework is always outdated, hell, they teach Java.

If you're serious about learning programming, either do it yourself or go on a quick course to get you started. Start coding, and ask questions on some programming forum somewhere. Find out if there are vacancies in your own company. Failing that, try to join a small company - the responsibility on you will be much higher, the pay will be lower, and you'll get to learn much more.

Programming not only pays, but can be fulfilling

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to point out the programming route. Compared to the mild torture of IT work I've seen described in this and other threads, I, and many others, find programming extremely fulfilling. Specifically, I'm talking about large-scale development where performance and code quality matters and you can take pride in your work. I think it was best described by Frederick Brooks (of Mythical Man Month fame) in his "The Joys of the Craft": http://momjian.us/main/favorites/doc/programming.html. I might add it also pays well and I've found that companies are *always* looking for good programmers.

    As for specific advice: go to school so you can really learn your algorithms and data structures, not little soundbites from message boards and copies of Torvald's posts. If you want to do low-ish level programming (which I highly recommend because, with most students graduating knowing little more than Java and Scheme, C/C++ and knowledge of how things work is a jewel), take a compiler class where you implement source to assembly for a toy language and an OS class that makes you write bits of a toy OS; understanding how these two things work and not feeling like they are deep magic is critical. Thirdly, take a computer architecture class so you know why some things are fast and some things are slow. And lastly, for goodness sakes, if you want to be a programmer, program all the frakkin' time so that eventually the syntax melts away and programming is like walking.

    Cheers on taking action to improve your situation!

If you're passionate about technology

[Anonymous Coward]

- If you're passionate about technology, development, databases, etc. then by all means get a Computer Science degree and get your foot in the door of a larger company with more opportunity. Look forward to a career of constantly learning new technologies and being good at it because it's what you love.

- If technology is not your passion and you don't have an interest in continual self-education, why not get out of IT and pursue a different field that better fits your interests and ambitions?

This advice from a 40 year old programmer who still loves his job -- Cheers!

Be a man!

[Quiet_Desperation]

Go forth into the world and create printers that do not jam and an Outlook that does not freeze!

Hopefully...

[vorlich]

you kept all the boxes and packaging material that you originally came in. Wrap yourself back up and put yourself back in the box. Then return it to the manufacturer and include a note telling them that your volume control is broken and that you are rather too self-involved to be a human being.

With every decision you make...

[Anonymous Coward]

...you should ask yourself "Is this GOOD for the company?"

Re:With every decision you make...

[sabs]

When's the last time you came across an executive who ever asked that question :)

The only question they ask is. "Is this GOOD for my bonus?"

Start a startup

[dido]

You say you've got a bit of education of a graduate level under your belt? Well, starting a startup might be a good idea, that is if you're the sort that doesn't have a family to support, a mortgage to pay, or some other long-term obligations that require a stable, reliable income. Don't be too worried about the economy. Sure, it's a difficult job too, founding a startup, but it's difficulty on your terms, and for many people that makes all the difference in the world.

Prep yourself up and sell yourself right.

[makisig]

So you want out of hell desk. I'm assuming that you also have figured out what you actually want to do. If not, you really need to think about that first. Perhaps the other posts above this one can help.

After leaving school, I took a similar support role for a web hosting department in a large US ISP primarily because I felt like doing something different from my undergrad study on robotics at that time. I was curious about how web servers are set up for a commercial provider.

It didn't turn out the way I thought it would. The phone would ring incessantly all day. There were angry customers cursing at you when their web site is down or they didn't get their emails regardless of whose fault it was.There were also technology-challenged customers you'd painstakingly walk through for the next hour or so on setting up their email client or posting a picture of their dog on their personal web site.

Of course, I quickly realized that this support role is not for me and I wanted a development work instead. That is my interest and I know I am capable for the job but I also felt that my experience was off-putting. However, selling myself right I think helped and I am now involved in product development for once of the largest software companies in the world.

First Advice: Right now, try to do stuff related to your target role while working as a hell desk monkey.
You may already be doing some of them and not be aware of it. For example, if you want to go for a software developer role, try solving problems by writing software for it. You could write programs to automate some menial repetitive tasks for you. Of course that will be difficult with people bugging you every five minutes but it will help you to build up on relevant experience worth mentioning in an interview. Analyze certain recurring problems and see if you can come up with a script to automatically fix them. You mentioned web development and database, why not whip out a LAMP stack for starters and set up an online tracking tool or a knowledgebase accessible by everyone in your intranet? In your free time, contribute to Open Source projects or build stuff in your basement. Build up on relevant experience.

I bet you can find some problem that you can fix by taking the role you're aiming for. Say, if you're aiming for a management role, look for IT processes that can be improved. I am hopeful that would be in the position to propose changes to processes since you're the lone IT guy.

Another management-related example. See if you can educate your users. I bet it can make your life easier as well as everyone elses if if everyone knows, how to clear their browser cache, reset their network connection, or (so help us by the powers that be) reboot.

Next Advice: Study on stuff related to your target role.
This need not be expounded. Plenty of resources online to help you learn more about other roles that you're aiming for. In fact, you're already looking at one of them. Go to a local library, pick up a book on development or management or whatever and start learning. Impress your interviewer with your grasp of the subject.

Lastly: When applying for a job, highlight only your relevant achievements.
In my technical interviews, I would talk about the tools that I developed while I was doing support. I mentioned the projects I have on the side (from open-source contributions to relevant hobby projects) as well as stuff I did on my undergrad. I doubt that they were particularly interested about how I saved several customers because I calmed them down and talked them out of canceling their subscription. This is where selling yourself right comes in.

Don't worry much about not having the right credentials. You can build on that and chances are, you already have them. As for pursuing a master's, go for it. I myself am preparing for continuing education and education is never a bad thing. However, at this point I don't think you have to wait a few more years for a a graduate degree to move out of hell desk.

Get involved with an open source project

[DeBaas]

You mentioned that you may want to dig into webdevelopment/databases. Why not get involved with an open source web content management system. I follow the development of http://www.wegbgui.org/ I have noticed quite a few times that people that start out just using it and later develop for it, don't just learn a lot, but often get hired later on to work on or with this. And if you learn that this not your cup of tea, you found that in your own time.

Other open source CMS projects may have the same effect. In my view though, WebGUI has high quality code. There is more of a learning curve before you get code accepted , but you will also learn much more. Not just about software development, but also if software development is really something for you

Typo

[DeBaas]

that should of course be http://www.webgui.org./

That's a High-Class Problem, Buddy

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, I genuinely feel for you - when I started out 14 years ago, my first job out of college was doing Help Desk work (several thousand users), and it drove me frikkin' NUTZ. Did it for three years, then moved on to another position at a much smaller company, where things were more sane but the work was just as unrewarding.

I can't recommend more strongly that you need to get some perspective. In this economy, having a job which keeps you busy, is a GOOD PROBLEM TO HAVE. There are thousands of people out there who would sacrifice a lot in order to have the opportunity to be in an job such as yours. Sure, it's stressful, and it's not challenging you, but I wonder how realistic your expectation is. As you grew up you were promised you'd have a rewarding enjoyable career, and now you're finding you don't. (Ever seen Fight Club? Go see it.)

Work CAN be rewarding, but only to the extent that you're willing to face the challenges; to take the bad with the good. You get out what you put in. Expecting the employer or environment to make the job more pleasureable or rewarding... that's the path to years of frustration. Trust me, that was my attitude for years, and I wish I hadn't've had it. But I'm glad I finally learned (a) the value of sacrifice & sucking it up, and (b) to not look to my job to provide reams of goodness to me. Strangely, it was only *after* I learned these things, that I finally started to get some rewarding jobs. I'm doing more back-end application support for functionally-specific technology (in the Smart Grid space) and I love it, my environment, and my coworkers, and I'm making reams of money.

You'll get there. Rome wasn't built in a day. Our society makes it too easy to have expectations that we're gonna get what we want, and get it soon.

Re:That's a High-Class Problem, Buddy

[Anonymous Coward]

P.S. on the question of school: it's not gonna solve your problems. There are no free lunches, and even the ones you pay for, sometimes don't do shit for you. It's YOUR responsibility to learn what you need to know in order to your job. Sure, for some jobs you can only learn those things in a school environment, but if you want to stay in IT, forget about it. (Unless you want to someday be a Director or CIO or some other position where you're responsible for a P&L... then you probably do need some specialized training, at some point). I dropped out of college after two years. I didn't study Comp Sci; I bought a computer and every night after work I sat in front of it and learned DOS and Win 3.1 and sucked up everything I could. A decade later I was making six-figures working for some of the biggest software companies in the world.

It ain't what you know, it's how able you can learn the shit you don't know, in order to do what needs to get done. Learn how to teach yourself new skills, it's waaaay more valuable than anything you'll learn in college.

move back home

[CALI-BANG]

"or would I better off moving back home, getting a mindless but low-stress job, and teaching myself technologies in my free time?"

how young are you?

if you still have time, move back home and as you said you can teach yourself some technologies and your free time.

sometimes the only way to progress is to move few steps backward.

Yes, I do as it happens

[jimicus]

It may well be too late with your current employer - mainly because as far as they're concerned, you are and always will be the person on the helpdesk.

But in my own experience, people coming up from the helpdesk don't just walk into work one day and find themselves magically off the helpdesk team. You've got to show an active interest in the other parts of the department - well, the parts that interest you, at any rate. Get to know some of the people there, ask them about how a particular thing works. Everyone likes it when people take an interest in them.

It doesn't even need to be work-related. If you ever go out as a department for team building/social events, spend some time talking to the line manager of the team you want to be in.

Nobody ever got off the helpdesk by working long hours and showing a great deal of enthusiasm for the helpdesk. Plenty, however, have got off the helpdesk by showing a great deal of enthusiasm for some other aspect of the IT department.

Start Networking and Start Investing

[PotatoHead]

in new tech skills.

I've made similar jumps twice before and currently am working on my third. Here's the secret sauce:

1. Identify some set of niches that:

-can provide for you leveraging many of the skills you have right now
-that you feel some passion for
-that appear to be up and coming trends.

2. You want the passion because you then:

-start building those skills appropriate for the niche in your free time
-consume trade / technical / political / business information about that niche to become relevant and learn the lingo
-identify companies whose profile matches how / who you want to work with.

3. Network, network, network

-do lunch with people that know the people who occupy the niche
-ideally do lunch with those people who are in the niche
-get involved with activities where outsiders can participate
-do projects, demonstrations, etc.. where you can show skill.

This one might mean doing a bit of work for free. So be it. It's an investment, so long as you are making forward progress. Just don't get exploited without some clear return and you are fine.

4. Start asking for the job.

-somebody you know will vouch for you, want to give you a shot, provide a good reference, etc...
-let them know your passion. If you've done your homework, they will see this and it will resonate.
-be avaliable, even if part time and even if that is rough at first.

5. DON'T

-brag on this where you work now. That is pissing in your own pool and it is bad.
-count on scoring the opportunity and ending up with nothing, particularly right now
-lie to yourself about your prospects. Your networking will have told you your real chances.
-do stupid things, make stupid statements, get involved in contraversies surrounding your target niche
-forget your family, friends and such. This can be managed and you will have to manage it

6. Consider:

-secondary education
-technical training online
-attending conferences
-moving. I'm serious about that one. There are hot spots and not spots. If you are in the not zone, you need to leave, or give it up.

With me, it was a transition from manufacturing to IT/IS sysadmin related things. Many of the manufacturing computer related skills mapped over. Many other skills needed to be learned. I met a few sysadmins who were happy to show me the ropes, recommend prospects and give me advice.

From there, I moved into CAD. 3D solid modeling CAD. Have been there for a while, with a side move to more pre-sales and account management stuff. It kind of sucks, but hey! It's very difficult to outsource that stuff.

If you haven't noticed, there has been a hell of a lot of outsourcing. That's the reason for my jumps so far. That sucks too.

Now, it's micro controllers and embedded things. After all the stuff, high performance computing, CAD, networks, etc... I find I really like small computers that do interesting and small scale things. That's where the fun is for me. So, I'm doing the above and seeing some early success.

I'm still honestly not sure of my chances. Getting older sucks. I'm not so old that it's an issue, but it does limit how far down I can burn both ends of the candle. The ride is good right now though. Building things, writing simple goofy games, learning CPU's and having little bits of hardware do this and that is great fun. So, I'm on #2 and #3, with a conference or two planned to meet 'n greet and find out how it all really works on the professional end.

The niche is big, so I've still to sort out where I want / need to play and whether or not it's worth it. And that's my final point. To do this right, you've got to go down the road a ways. You may find it's a dead end. No harm as long as you had some fun. Start over and try again, and again.

Good luck. In this economy it's gonna be tough. Seriously consider splitting your time between the jump, and securing your own current position. All of this

QA

[Anonymous Coward]

The obvious step up from helpdesk is QA. Get a QA job (not blackbox) and work your way up to dev from there...

Learn to program, create software, release it..

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to jump into web development, you might try developing and releasing some software as open source. There are so many web frameworks out there now, that you could simply port a useful application/library from one framework to another, and you'll have something you can put your name on. Better still is if you come up with something cool and original that everyone talks about - but you have to crawl before you can walk! I like the Python world - I suggest Django as a good starting base because of its great documentation, but you may find you start leaning towards other systems. Even if nobody uses your software except for you, it is something tangible that you can put on your CV when you go for a real job.

If you pick things up fast, try going for a niche market - why be yet another java chump (they all look alike) when you can be something special in your chosen market? But the real key to developing your skills is to always play with different technology and techniques.. you just have to take an active interest in the stuff, you don't need to lock yourself away in a dark room. I know people who set up Kerberos and LDAP servers for fun (and later profit), yet they still find the time to enjoy life with family and friends.

Go back to Uni to study something only if it interests you (and you can find a good course), not just because you feel you have to. But then again, I don't know your market..

Start teaching yourself various unix systems.

[arcade]

The best way to get to the fun roles, are by teaching yourself how things work. This is usually not accomplished at schools, but with you yourself playing around with things.

The easiest way, from my point of view, is starting to play around with various unix systems.

I don't know the current state of slackware, but back when I wanted to learn linux, I tried getting slackware to work on my workstation, including X. I tried and failed for a couple of weeks - but I learned a huge lot from it. I went on to install Debian. These days - I'd suggest going the Gentoo route, and then try to build your own linux distro from scratch.
See: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

Buy the book "Running Linux". Read it, understand it.

Don't stop there. After playing around with linuxfromscratch and reading 'Running Linux', I would go on to download OpenBSD, and read the FAQ's/Howto's and most importantly - the man-pages you're referred to after installation. There is an incredible amount or good documentation for OpenBSD. It's easy to read - and you learn a lot - fast.

After playing around with OpenBSD - I would go on to play around with NetBSD. When I played around with it (1.5.2, I think) - it was a very nice and barebone unix. Documentation wasn't perfect, but that lead me to learn even more.

FreeBSD is very nice - but last time I played around with it, it suffered from having too many users having written too much contradicting information. It was more difficult to pick up than Open/Net-BSD, but it's way more usable for an end user. THAT, however, should not be one of your considerations when you want to learn. Pick the best documented one, not the one that has the most fancy features for your desktop. :)

In the process of installing and fooling around with all these systems, try to build your own firewall for your home computers. Read up on firewalling - it's a good goal - as to create a useful firewall you'll need to teach yourself TCP/IP in the process.

When you feel that you've mastered most of this (you haven't, but that's beside the point) - you should've spent 6-12 months. It's now time to pick up "Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment". See: http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Environment-Addison-Wesley-Professional-Computing/dp/0201563177

This book will teach you a lot, and now that you've used Unix for a while - you'll understand quite a bit of it. Not all, but it's a good read, and will teach you even more of what you need to know.

After fooling around with all this, or preferably in between and along the way, you'll need to:
  - Configure BIND (DNS), and maybe look at djbdns
  - Configure postfix/exim, and maybe also take a look at qmail
  - Configure a dhcp-server.
  - Fool around a bit with apache, building it from source and swearing at it. :)
  - Set up an nntp-server.
  - Maybe set up an IRC server to fool around with.

Also, it's important to get to know a couple of programming languages. Not necessarily to expert level, but it's important that you fool around with C (not C++, but you might want to learn a bit of that in addition) - plus a couple of scripting languages. It's important that you teach yourself bash (since it's probably your shell) - in addition to either perl or python. You'll find camps that say that perl is more important, while other camps will claim that python is more important. I went with perl first, and I'm now trying to teach myself python.

Now, this is a huge list of things to play around with. There are lots more - but it should give you a good 12-24 months of fooling around and studying. With all the knowledge you gather from this, if you complete it, you should be ready to get yourself fun, challenging and other frustrating work. :-)

Find a company that will give you opportunities...

[Eskarel]

There are a number of things which will give you a leg up. Education, experience, and networking(the people kind not the cable kind) will all give you a leg up. Doing volunteer work(supporting your local non profit, doing open source coding, etc), getting a university education(and more importantly getting one of those student only university jobs), joining the right kind of local organizations all will help you.

However, the best way to progress is to work for someone who will give you a chance to do more and to prove to them that you're worth that chance. Small companies tend to be the best for this sort of thing. Generally they pay poorly and work you too hard, but because most of the time they're understaffed, you get to wear a lot of hats and do a lot of things which, if you're clever, can give you one hell of a resume.

The days of making 80 grand right out of the gate are long gone in most IT sectors, and the few that are left are flavor of the month type things which if you're not careful will kill your career dead in a few years when they go out of fashion or there isn't a shortage any more. IT jobs are just like every other job, you've got to work hard, and get lucky.

How about the traditional role?

[RMH101]

...First line to get your chops/experience, 2nd line to start differentiating yourself from the tier 1 guys and do something more interesting, specialise in 3rd line, then go off into whatever area you want with your CV fattened a little.
there's a danger if you've been on the helldesk for a couple of years that you'll just stay there - those with ambition and low boredom threshold will go off and do something else.

IT is a weapon of growth

[WML MUNSON]

IT is a support function, deal with it or find a different career field.

I disagree. I work in IT for a 400 person non-IT organization and I spend my working days developing new and innovative solutions for our organization that will help us more effectively compete in the market.

I spend time on things like developing Intranet systems that allow communication and organization among staff in ways they never dreamed of before, interfacing medical equipment with HMS/ERP systems, creating network monitoring systems that send our store-room staff SMS messages when doctors printers are running low on paper, just to name a few. I also spend time revising existing systems so that they need less support.

We have help-desk techs, sure, but that's because our department has structure. I'm part of the offense, they're part of the defense, and we're all aware that we're part of a team and that neither of us can grow without the other; My work is not more important than theirs, just "different." My work makes their work easier, and their work makes my work easier.

Our help-desk guys, like any help-desk guys, want to learn and grow their skills -- and I /want/ them to grow. When everyone does their jobs well, we end up with free time -- which can be spent on things like education and development. They grow, I grow, our systems grow, the organization grows, I make sure their paychecks grow -- wash, rinse, repeat.

If your organization doesn't provide avenues of growth, then move to another organization that does. Trust me: They exist.

Re:IT is a weapon of growth

[Anonymous Coward]

All the things you listed are support functions, dumb ass. Nothing that you are doing directly generates revenue for the company, it only SUPPORTS the business functions in generating revenue.

Get off you high horse and realize that IT is nothing more than a "white collar" maintenance person.

I forgot working at being business minded

[PotatoHead]

and not being afraid of a little selling.

The selling is you! If you have any worries about this at all, deal with them. Get a mentor, socialize, whatever it takes to be comfortable meeting and talking with people. The best jobs and the easiest, most secure jumps are done through people you know and who know you. This probably isn't going to happen with you sending out resumes in the hopes of winning the lotto.

As for the business minded bit, here's the deal:

(and this took me a while to grok, so read it twice)

You've got to know what your value proposition is. That is what you are selling. That means you should be able to say in one sentence why bringing you on to the team will make them more money, period.

All the other shit is just happy fun, HR shit. Do it, but don't invest in it.

The real deal is dollars and how you will make them more dollars than they will get with the other guy, or even better with you and some position you carve out for yourself. This is how I made my first jump! I got to the point where I knew I would matter and met those people that also knew it and asking for the job was easy then.

They were more than willing to vouch for me because they, frankly, would have a more secure position with me there than without! That's the kind of business minded thinking you need to run your own personal business. YOU!

Other things are revenues, how the sales process works, what margins do people get, where is the money really at, and lots of other things.

If you do this right, you should be able to identify those people that bring in the bucks and those people that simply support those people that bring in the bucks. You might want to be either kind, and that's fine.

But, you really, really should understand that difference and be able to articulate it quickly, simply and while looking them right in the eye.

Here's a short story I've posted here long ago.

Once upon a time I was sitting in my living room having a great discussion with Joel the Insurance salesman. I picked up an Auto Policy from him and he was kind enough to swing by the house for the close. After the business was done, and I had a new agent, I thought it good to just chat a bit to get to know who I was dealing with.

Somehow we got onto the topic of people skills -vs- technical skills. I made the statement that technical skills endure and they are what matters. Know what?

That insurance guy kicked my ass. Not only did he meet his burden on people skills, but he went farther and suggested where I could couple my tech skill with people skill to add to my value proposition and make more money in life!

Yeah, this sounds like a late night TV pitch, but here's the thing:

I'm not asking for money. I've no interest in whether or not you make it or break it. So why do it? I'm doing it because somebody did it for me. Why not? Truth is I think I drank too much coffee. Can't sleep. Go figure. Back to the little story:

That insurance guy changed my life and I'll bet he doesn't even know it. Maybe he does. We parted ways before I ever thought to ask. It was about 3 months after that meeting when I realized that outsourcing was killing manufacturing here where I live. I was good at it, loved doing it, but was never, ever going to make decent money and probably would end up forced on to the street in the next 5 years.

So I started down the path I just outlined. I think if you search, my older /. posts will have this info, and the state of things at that time. Here I am years in the future able to tell you it works. I've jumped since then, and will jump again.

Have to these days. Wanted to then. Now it's have to. Don't like it, but that is just how it is right now. Maybe it will change. I doubt it will for quite some time. We've screwed the pooch and there is some pay back that's gonna come out of every one of our asses for a while.

The potent mix where building your personal value propo

Here's a rehash of my SysAdmin post

[Qbertino]

A few months ago somebody here on /. asked on how to go about becoming a sysadmin. I wrote a lengthy, high rated reply that basically covers everything you need to know. Admining isn't a bad thing to get skills in, it's sort of the career-path of helpdesk if you will. As a real Admin you're in expert territory. You have to serve, and serve fast, but you won't have PEBCAK stuff to deal with that often. Consider following that path. Here's a pimped version of the reply I mentioned that covers admin stuff.

Put Stellar Physics (Astronomy)

[Anonymous Coward]

If a future employer complains about it, explain that this was necessary since "Astronomy" was for some reason removed.

Or talk to HR.

Worst case: they want to remove your degree because you'd be worth more money under the pay structure.

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[Exception Duck]

Plumbers have to get their hand dirty in human feces. I'd rather deal with Microsoft feces.

Move to Alaska/Yukon

[Minupla]

Move to somewhere with very few people, like the Yukon Territory. That's how I started my IT career when it became obvious that in the big city it didn't matter how good I was, I was looking at doing my time in helpdesk. If you're serious about IT as a career, and can't stand doing your time on the line, that's one alternative. By the end of my 5 years up there I had run a regional ISP, and been the head network person for the Dept of Eduction. Also nothing makes you look good like being able to tell the cliche bear stories. My favorite though is the time the internet went out because a hunter with bad aim missed a moose and hit the waveguide on one of the microwave towers I was using!

Now here's the bad news:
I've been doing IT for almost 20 years, I manage the architecture team for a mid sized business with offices in 3 cities and 2 countries, I hold a CISSP and am responsible for the security of the company, and the owners/CEO/Execs STILL asks me to fix their computer. On the plus side I'd say my average between interruptions is down to about 20 mins. The interruptions tend to also be bigger problems. Some days I wish rebooting the PC would solve the tickets that get assigned to me, but my desktop support guy is good at that :)

Min

Re:Move to Alaska/Yukon

[Minupla]

Of course, you do actually need to have the chops, but the truth of the matter is that of the people who read this, only about .01% of you have the gumption to actually take this sort of risk, and if you're willing to take it, you probably are either that good, or stubborn enough to become that good.

A rule of my life has been "I never want to look back and wonder 'What would have happened if I'd taken that chance'".

So far there's been only one time I let an opportunity pass me by, and that was because it was a choice between my professional life and my personal life. Personal won, and I don't regret that.

Min

Re:Move to Alaska/Yukon

[Anonymous Coward]

Another alternative is to try the education path (the schools 'computer guy'). The hours are good (no taking work home) and there is plenty of time to relax and chat. Of course, this is assuming you can deal with snot-nosed punk kids and teachers who cant get fired and have no reason to learn any technology.

Re:Distractions normal. Support is part of other j

[mikael_j]

I agree about how you don't get fewer distractions when leaving the support/helldesk world, I started out doing web development for a small company that did custom solutions for other companies and that was the only job I've had where I didn't have any distractions, and that was simply because they charged clients so much for every hour I worked that it didn't matter if I sat around doing nothing half the time. After college I ended up stuck in a support role for a couple of years. There were actually very few distractions in that job, the disadvantages were of course that I had no control whatsoever and I could be forced to work all sorts of odd hours. And the grind of having a mail queue stretching back a week or two sucked pretty badly.

These days I'm a developer again, the distractions, interruptions and constant context switching are a royal pain in the ass but at least I feel a bit more appreciated, and it's very nice to be able to say "No, I can't get that done this week but I'll try to get it done next week if nothing very urgent comes up" and actually having high-ranking people in the company accept that instead of getting the "Work harder you lazy bastard" type of response something like that would get me in support is extremely nice.

So yeah, I can understand why the OP would still want to move out of a support role, it's not just the distractions, it's the fact that everyone outranks you and is able to push you around, not to mention that if you're overworked you're likely to just be told to "work harder" (while of course not being allowed to work overtime since you're scheduled to work certain hours and only those hours (overtime = double pay, by law where I live)).

/Mikael

Re:Distractions normal. Support is part of other j

[weicco]

It really depends who your customers are. I was once in a firm that made developing tools for programmers. I was working as a code monkey, sales support and support manager at the same time (small company) and it was actually quite a fun. I didn't have to explain how to turn on your monitor or anything hard like that. I answered questions like how to implement business logic above database layer and so on.

Lately things have changed. I switched job and now I'm answering questions like how to change the font size in Windows. And it sucks! I'm a goddamn coder and project manager, not our customer's internal support, but I can't just go and say that they (end-users) are morons, no matter how I wanted to.

So being a help desk isn't so bad if your customers aren't morons.

Some simple truths

[Anonymous Coward]

The below are generalizations, but are generally true.

1. In the IT field, education is good. But in most cases experience is even more important. Companies like to know what you can do, not how many slips of paper you have. If you had an M.S. in something IT-related but only had helpdesk experience on your resume it would look a bit funny (from the infrastructure side of things, not as much from the programming side of things).

2. If you've been on the helpdesk for a year, you're not going anywhere. Helpdesk is an entry level job. Most people start there and only stay long enough to demonstrate competency, then they get promoted or switch jobs and move up. There are some people who are helpdesk lifers. They either don't have the minimal amount of skills required to move up, or they really, really like working the helpdesk. I've met examples of both. If you don't move up fairly quickly, you run the risk of looking like a helpdesk lifer.

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[L4t3r4lu5]

Go into central heating maintenance.

General plumbing is the same as IT Support; You only get to talk to people when their stuff breaks, and you have to deal with their shit all the time.

Welcome to the Hamster's wheel

[Anonymous Coward]

You can get your master's, which assumes you've already got your BS. It won't make any difference. True, college accolades are very much part of the pay-to-play game when you talk to HR. The reality is that you need to pay your dues. If you're a year out of college, you probably don't even know how to talk to suits. They don't want to hear about macros and VBA code. They want a button to click. Even if that button is clearly labeled, it will be your fault when they get it wrong anyway.

Your first mistake was coming to Slashdot for answers. About 2/3 of the responders here are the same animals; second generation wealth who pull strings and pedal influence for a living. You'll get nothing but a big, fat, stinking lie from them. You work for a Lawyer's office, yes? You probably don't even report to an IT professional as a department head, right? You'll be at arm's length until they know that you will take a bullet for them AND you better be a true believer and convince them that you don't think of yourself as an accomplice in crime.

Now, I'm not expecting you to believe me. After all, you're pondering more expensive education without any guarantee of ROI. You're second generation money too, right? The next big step in paying your dues is to get out of the easy money for dressing nice and being to work on time and start freelancing or being a one man department in a small business. That means that buck stops with you. You come in at 2:00 AM to restart the server. You fix the scripts that didn't run when they should have. You rebuild the crashed server, ASAP.

In a nutshell, you sound like you like IT but you don't bring enough proven accountability to the table to be given more authority. That's up to you.

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[Niet3sche]

Parent raises an exceptionally good point. I'm not sure how it is in the UK, but here in the USA we have master plumbers moaning about the fact that they cannot hire an idiot apprentice kid under them ... who in 3 years of training will set themselves up for a realistic shot of $100,000/year salary.

This figure, by the way, is what I hope to earn after TEN+ YEARS of formal post-secondary education. IF the academic market can come back together again. And if I'm employable.

Mod parent up

[BotnetZombie]

If I hadn't already commented before, I'd mod this up. GP is way off in many of his assertions.

Become an image designer

[spywhere]

You are in an excellent position to observe, understand, and theorize about the configuration of the company's Windows image. There are Windows 7 deployments in your future... would you rather sit at the desk trying to support the end users, or take part in the image design to help prevent problems?

Grab everything you can get about Windows 7 installation and deployment. Throw together a few test mules using the release candidate, and gain as much hands-on experience as possible installing and pre-configuring desktops to better meet the needs of your employer. (If possible, gather the equipment and set up your lab at the Help Desk: this will attract attention to your project, and to your determination to get out ahead of the curve with Win7). Sign up for Microsoft training on this, and seek reimbursement: paying for your training will make your bosses more likely to seek benefit from it. (Pay for the training before you seek reimbursement, and attend it even if you don't get the money from your employer. This will convey your determination to advance from a reactive posture [Help Desk] to proactivity [preventing problems]).

I was lead tech on a help desk for a year. The consulting firm that put me there tried to sell the client on an XP image. The client agreed, on the condition that I design the image. Next thing I knew, I was sought after as an image design Subject Matter Expert...

Re:Become an image designer

[OneSmartFellow]

WTF is an image design Subject Matter Expert ?

Warning, Warning, a new Buzzword has been detected. Warning, Warning......

Re:Become an image designer

[geekoid]

"t. (Pay for the training before you seek reimbursement, and attend it even if you don't get the money from your employer. "

I disagree. Ypu should write down how this will save them money and prepare them for the move(assuming they will move) present it to them and ask for them to pay for training upfront. Find the MOST expensive way to do this.
If(when) they say no ask why? Most likely they will bring up the expense. Find what they will pay and find a cheaper class. A smart person will already have this lined up but be quite about it. Outcomes:
A) You get some great free training at a really nice place and get to stay in a hotel for a couple days, exepnses paid
B) You go someplace local, but paid
C) You go someplace and partial pay
D) You pay it all.

These are lawyers. show them you ahve a goal and motivation and it will make them money.

My ehtics would dictate that I stay with the company for at least a couple years while trying to improve it. Not just in everyday tasks, but writing up what you do and how it saved money.
Become a professional expert in their minds. When you out grow the place, talk to them tell them you are looking becasue you ahve out grown the place and have a plan to help them transition into whoever they get to replace you. Also, talk to them about their network of people and if they no anyone.

Unless you pay for the training yourself. In that case get the hell out the moment training ends.

Re:Become an image designer

[geekoid]

SOmeone who understand how to build a software image to easy multiple intallations house.

For example, if you have to upgrade 100+ machines, how do you build an image to do so, including all updates and base applications. Like AV/Office, and so forth. Properly done it will save the company a lot of money.

Don't confuse your ignorance with buzz words.

Re:Become an image designer

[OneSmartFellow]

That's a full time job ?
What do you do for the other 240 work days in the year ?

My experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I'm in a good position to add my thoughts to this one:

I have a BSc in Business Computing, a HND in Computing with Multimedia, some minor certs for programming and I was sysadmin for a large news site.

Straight out of University, and I couldn't get a job for 6 months. Eventually I accepted a Helpdesk role for a software company, and that's all I stayed doing for 2 years. What I find is, unless there is a position that comes up that the management thinks you're ready for, you're stuck where you are.

Knowing that no-one else would hire me for a better job when all I'd done was helpdesk work, I took 6 months off to study for the Microsoft MCSE. The reason? Most businesses use Microsoft clients and servers as their I.T base, so I'd have a good shot at getting a job.

A few months after studying, I landed myself a role as a Network Admin in a large I.T support company. I worked there as a contractor for a year before taking another 6 months off to study for my Cisco CCNA.

With those combined I took on a role as a Network Consultant at the previous I.T support company and am now much happier.

The bottom line is - most places will just want you to fulfill the role they're paying you for. They may be happy for you to learn, but your primary role is the helpdesk monkey you're doing at the moment.

My advice would be either:

1. Get friendly with the guys above you. Tell them that you want to learn and ask them to let you take on more technical things. As long as they're not complete a-holes, they'll try to help you out learning more 'techie' stuff.

2. Quit. Take time out to study for a real-world business situation (I loved my degree, but very little of it was relevant directly to my job). Once you've got that down, more places will consider you for more interesting things. I'd suggest Microsoft software as you've probably got a good handle on it now, and go from there.

AC.

start doing your next job anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a strategy I used when I was a support rep on a help desk for a similar sized group:

1. Positive attitude. Don't call it helldesk unless you like that particular self-fulfilling prophecy. Privately relish the fact that as long as you know a little more than the next guy they can't tell you apart from Einstein, accept their compliments when you solve their problems, for the people out there with open minds who want to learn to be self-sufficient, teach them what you know instead of being condescending to them so they can start solving their own problems and giving you more time, etc.
2. Find one way to optimize your current job every day and give yourself more time. The book "Getting Things Done" might help, particularly the flowchart about how to deal with incoming "stuff" rapidly and build a system of getting stuff taken care of quickly. Become very efficient at the types of tasks you always have to do, like the ones you mentioned, so you can be in and out quickly. Also spend some time looking for root cause so you can prevent them from happening in the first place. If you have enough calls coming in and you don't already have this, see if you can set up a "dispatcher" system so there is always someone sitting at the desk waiting for incoming calls and then logging them. Our dispatchers didn't get paid as much, but they made the system go a lot smoother.
3. Use the extra time you gain from whatever optimization you come up with to study up on whatever it is you want your next thing to be. This way you always have the outward appearance of being super busy and committed to your work even though you are spending less and less time having to help people out or maintain systems. If you want to learn SQL set up a SQL database for your ticketing system that will further optimize your work, or build a "dashboard" that will let you spot trends by querying your current incoming work ticket system. If you want to try web design, start going through the HTML on the company website, "view source" from the browser if that's all you have access to, and look for ways you might be able to make it better. Then come up with a prototype for it. If you want to learn Web 2.0 see if you can build some widget for lawyers on facebook that will be good for their business or drives up referrals and testimonials or something. If you want to learn graphics programming start coming up with some kind of flash animations or something with lawyer joke of the day or something with your business name and email address baked in or something. Whatever your thing is, if you come up with something good, you might be given more time to do more of it. If not, and you were just using time you saved by optimizing your other everyday work and are actually lowering call rates and improving your time-to-fix in the process, it doesn't matter how many of these ventures of yours suceed or fail. Chalk failures up to a learning experience, those are required to learn. And you get to own all the victories, now you have a new type of skill you can apply to something else in the future or put on your resume and talk about during interviews. Don't feel victimized - like your employer owes it to you to teach you everything, check out books from the library, find out what books a training course would use and just buy those instead of buying the class, etc. In my experience when you are interviewing for your next job, being able to say you did such-and-such on the job and talk about it during the interview is better than saying you read about such-and-such in college but don't have any on-the-job experience. That said, I got my current job because the company recruiters came to my school and basically looked for people with CS degrees, so the degree was what got them to consider me. But they also do "industry hires" and some of the best people I work with don't have a college degree, so you just need to find whatever's going to get you in front of a hiring manager during an interview process. After that it's the proven te

Get into a tech company

[JGBPhilly]

I don't think a law firm is going to provide the kinds of career growth you're looking for. I highly recommend you get a entry level position in tech support or IT for a firm actually in the tech sector. Depending on the size of the firm and your skill level and potential, you'll have a multitude of opportunities not available at non-tech companies.

3 routes

[Antique Geekmeister]

I see 3 routes: which you choose depends on your style.

* Management - learn to manage a call center, if you like being a manager. Take courses, organize your group, get noticed as a leader, and be ready to jump to another company that hears how well you handle their calls and tries to hire you. It happens to me as a third tier support person all the time.
* Document your way out of the mess. Many calls are easily scriptable, and could be walked through by a trained monkey. Learn to write those scripts well. This is a very salable skill, in your company for escalation when the market improves, but it requires real hands-on with the people who do your current job. Review good documentation for guidelines. FAQ's like the Subversion FAQ and book are pretty good, and some well-organized people do very well with Wikis.
* Develop an invaluable work-related hobby. Sourceforge is a great place for this, and so are public Wikis. I've got old projects that I contributed to over a decade ago and live over on Slashdot that still get me occasional recruiting calls, or really boost my value in job reviews (and the very rare interview because I hate switching work but things happen). There's nothing quite so helpful as getting an interview question on a subject and saying "Oh, dear. That relates to this work I did on this old environment: look up my name and that subject on Google for pages more than 3 years old.". But having your name in the general discussion groups, or especially making intelligent comments in the developer groups, can pay off down the line.

What you pursue is your own choice: I've seen each of those approaches work. As a Slashdot cranky person and self-avowed technical expert, I prefer the Sourceforge approach.

Be in the right environment

[wintermute000]

Get in the right company/environment (i.e. OPPORTUNITIES to move on up) and in the meantime do as much study as your finances / sanity will allow.

I was plucked from the helldesk into level 2 PABX config work and its been all level 3 stuff from here on end (now I'm a data/voip network engineer and I traded my PABX badges for cisco ones). The key was that I was lucky enough to be in an environment where there was such opportunities and I had managers who recognised talent and was willing to promote them onto bigger and better things. I also did my share of studying (to make the transition from TDM voice to IP networking).

Whether or not you are in a good position may be a bit hard to tell, I got close to quitting after a couple of years but it then took off and had I quit after 2 years I would have been back to square one. Also, if things are looking dicey e.g. layoffs, instability, things falling apart - these times may actually be the best time to angle for a step up as employing a young gung-ho turk who is willing to work for 20% less than the older guy is often an attractive option for the pointy eared types. Do not fixate about pay, as long as you're not being totally ripped off, for your purposes the position is more important than the salary. Once you're established then you start looking for the figures.

But to reiterate, the key is to get a chance to prove yourself and then grab it with both hands. Everything you do in the meantime (aside from looking for such position) is to ready yourself for the step up.

Being in a small environment you're already way ahead of those in dilbert corporate land helldesks, whose opportunities for real advancement (i.e. real IT engineering work as opposed to being 'senior' helldesk or one of the dreaded process monkeys) are much more limited, nevermind the fact that all the process red tape and job segmentation prevents them from gaining the kind of all round exposure you are getting. Keep agitating to be put on projects and stick your hand up for anything, even if its just grunt work for a larger project, if you impress the right peoeple they'll want you on board their next project and that's your ticket in. Of course corporate land can be a good outcome it all depends on your bosses and your specific environment, personally I cut my teeth in a bank's IT department (managing a bank's voice systems is the best way to learn the definition of five-nines uptime).

In the meantime, study as much as you can handle, and keep sticking your hand up for everything. Don't say no just because you think its beneath you (of course don't let yourself be exploited, its a fine line and you'll have to figure out the right balance yourself). And oh trust me you'll never get away from the users entirely....

Here how i did it.

[Lazypete]

I first got out of college and got a internship at a very small compagny. There i was tech 1st grade... just like you.. hell i tell you. But i managed to hang for a year. The good thing is that compagny was soo poor that every other job was better, so there were job opening very often. So after a year i got second level and i helped hire the new 1st level guy. Then it was hell but.. much more colder than it used to be. I hanged another year and then the 3rd level quit for a better job, so i took the post, now the fun was there. i was running the IT, under the manager, but i was the one choosing the hardware, choosing the technology, i held that job for a year again. Now I was ready, i had gone through 3 level of tech support and also been "sub-manager" of the IT department. Then the manager left, but nooo way was i to become a manager.. i hate politics and budjet and stuff.. so i stayed at my post and got a new manager. Then it was my turn i left the compagny and had enough experience to fit almost any job in IT since as 3rd i had touched almost everything, from Network management to server management hell i even did some HR when it was time to get new staff. Now i have a dream job, i work as a Linux System Admin and im loving it. Hope this gives you courage and keep it up. so my advice would be, find another helpdesk job, where you can have advancement, go for small town where there are less staff and more opportunity. Good luck mate!

go learn something

[rvandenbrink]

Helpdesk positions are the greatest if you want to learn ANYTHING. Especially if you need to cover an evening shift, you've got lots of gear and lots of time. You have the entire computer inventory and assets of the company at your disposal - buy a book and learn something that someone is hiring for, then go interview. Linux is a good choice, but so is SQL, Oracle, Networking and Security, or Virtualization. Essentially just pick something (anything) and become an expert. Learn anything that isn't Windows and AD, because the perception is that anyone coming out of college or highschool knows that stuff - this isn't true by the way, but you're not going to convince the person who's interviewing you of that. Alternatively, if you can swing a student loan, go back to school for 2-3 years and get a masters, there will never be a better time than right now - this is always true at a personal level, no matter what the economic situation is.

Go for it

[k33fb]

I was in PRECISELY your situation in 2000 and have felt your pain. I read a 1-year taught masters degree in Comp Sci and haven't looked back. I paid back the costs of the degree within 3(ish) years, including the year of "lost" salary where I wasn't paid for study. This included a 2-year stint where I was underpaid compared to the average junior developer, and this was immediately post the 911-attack where the job market in the UK wasn't exactly fantastic. If possible I'd go for a pure Comp Sci degree, the web ones

As ever, there are a few caveats :

• Make sure your finances can withstand the costs & time taken out to study
• Don't believe the average graduate wages claimed for a new developer by your university. There are a few graduates who get taken up by the large consultancies who get paid a whack-load of dosh, this skews the average upwards. If you get a well paid job, you're in clover.
• You'll still have to deal with lusers, and they don't get any cleverer when you're trying to get specifications (or common sense or abstract thought) out of them
• You should be learning new technologies at home anyway...

Work smarter, not harder

[matt328]

Fix the problems, not the symptoms. I worked in a similar situation for almost 3 years. When I first started, it was the same, printers jammed, machines frozen, virus infestations, generally someone's hair was always on fire. It being a nonprofit, there really was no IT budget, but money would be available every once in awhile. I made a list of thorns in my side, and what was needed to buy when the money was available. I consolidated printers to a could of networked copy machines (which were managed and serviced by a local company, that was a bonus), spent an hour here and there getting enterprise wide virus control deployed, and prioritized freezing machines to be upgraded. By the time I had left that job there was not much work beyond routine maintenance I had to do.

get some certs for credibility

[tresstatus]

a few years ago, i was in the same place you are in. i was working as the primary support guy in a distribution center for a mall-based retailer. i loved my job and where i worked, but i really wanted to advance. since this was my first IT job, i had nothing to prove that i had any skills beyond the 2.5 years of being where i was. i convinced the company to pay for some certification classes. i obtained the a+ and net+ certs about a year and a half after i started.

after a few months of job searching, i finally landed a job as a systems engineer for a start-up pharmacy.

anyway, my problem with finding a job should be advice to you.. i couldn't decide what path i wanted to go down. i had some database experience, some php, and some systems experience. you have to just choose the one you want to do and concentrate on those jobs. otherwise, you will be flooded by recruiters for low-paying jobs that don't interest you. luckily, i wound up in a position to where i can concentrate on the systems and still get to work with databases and scripting.

A 'masters' is 'web development'...? Is that at..

[Assmasher]

...a school advertising in the back of Mad Magazine?

Time is what I needed.

[taintedhobbit]

My degree is a basic Associate of Science. I am mostly self taught. I originally was going for an Accounting degree, but switched it towards the end so that I could transfer and work on my Bachelor's. I would like to go back and get my Bachelor's, but I don't want to incur any more student loan debt. Until I can save up enough to go back, I am relying on my experience. I've been working at various companies throughout my 14 years in the IT field. I started out working at a small mom and pop computer store (5.5 yrs), spent some time as a contractor (Migration and help desk for 2.5 yrs), help desk for 24x7 Internet banking (1.5 yrs), then spent 6 months on a state funded vacation when that tanked. From there, I worked at Convergys for a couple of months, then got a job at an ISP for 5.5 yrs. I started out there as help desk, but moved up to a systems engineer position. From there, I moved to my current position as a Systems Administrator at my current job. I still do a little help desk work, but nowhere near what I used to do. If I had a Bachelor's, I'd like to think that I could have gotten here faster, but some of the poor decisions I made earlier with the way I handled my money has kept me from going further. I wish you well.

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[Kjella]

(Heck, if you want to stay with computers, get certified to install fiber. It's only going to grow, and I've had trouble finding anyone to install it in the new house.) Something that doesn't expect you for the rest of your life to be answering the phone at 12:45am on random nights.

12:45am "OMG, our fiber connection is broken"

Just funny that you picked the other guys that also get called out at any time during major outages.

Anonymous Response for an Anonymous Post

[Anonymous Coward]

First off, do you really want anything else? I say this because, for all your hate of the help desk, I really don't hear any love for something else. So if you read nothing more from this response, please before you do anything, figure out what you *want to do* because no one gets anywhere half-heartedly.

Anyway, for the rest of this article, I'll assume your desire is to become a full-time developer so you can 1) get a high paying salary and 2) earn some respect among your fellow colleagues. To be honest, I believe this goal is decently vapid and that you should reevaluate, but irrespective of the precise target here is what I suggest you do.

1. REVISE YOUR RESUME: Okay, so you're a help desk guy, and that's going to typecast you more than you can ever imagine. My suggestion is to remove it from your resume entirely if you haven't been there too long. In fact, even if you have been there a while (which would to me indicate a high level of complacency on your part), it's still better to claim you were a free lancing developer or spending years of your time enhancing your skillset while living at home. Is that a white lie? Sure, but come on - if you want to get anywhere you have to break the mold you've already set for yourself and start creating a new one that can fit who you want to become. What about school? As a director of a consultancy who hires developers, I'll tell you right now, I don't care one bit about schooling, just skills. Yes, school can make it easier to learn particular things (mainly those requiring expensive or restricted technology), but outside from those, it's all about initiative. Beside, more school means a demand for a higher starting salary, and why the f**k would I want to help you pay off those school loans you acquired unless I really have to? Point is, if you want to get your foot in the door, don't go to school, just...

2. GET SKILLS AND EARN RESPECT: What do you want to program - the web, your phone, embedded devices, or something else? Whatever it is, just get to learning about it. Be practical - don't learn simply for the sake or learning abstract concepts (that's for academics and you when you have free-time); learn it because its knowledge levels-up your skill set and because you can put it to real use. Also, be social about your pursuits. IRC, mailing lists, blogs - all of them are great places to meet people that can help get you where you need to be without costing you a penny. But that said...

3. DON'T BE TOO TIMID AND DON'T BE TOO ARROGANT: As you progress from a lone cowboy hacker to a more socially refined programmer, you validate yourself as an individual who can work in a team, even if that team is wildly disparate and found across the globe. So do this part right, because it matters a lot in this profession. Find balance by not being so timid that you're never taking on hard problems and not be so arrogant that you leave sh*t code for people to clean. Also, somewhere around this point, you should apply to jobs. When you do, you must do so compellingly. In other words, think value proposition. Your employer wants to use you, but how can you make it sweet for them and good for you. However you do it, don't worry too much about salary, but *always*, *always*, *always* emphasize title and responsibilities. You want to be doing the hard stuff, so that even if you're not bringing in the big bucks doing it now, you will one or two jobs in the future.

Alright, that's all the wisdom I'm willing to hand out today, but it should be enough to get going. Now get to it!

This isn't really a question.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is little substitute for ambition. Education helps, but an intelligent individual need only identify what it is that they want to do and make the effort to realize that goal. If the position you are looking for requires an advanced degree, then that is what you must do. I've done very well for myself without any degrees, lots of credits, just no diplomas.

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[MxTxL]

Sure, but the fiber installer rolls in on triple overtime, the other guy is on salary and gets to suck it.

Take a Step Back

[Khue]

One thing I would like to point out, is that this guy is saying he's been on the helpdesk for more then a year. To me this indicates less then two years. I'm a Sysadmin of a relatively small shop. I am pretty young and I've been in IT (counting helpdesk as IT) for over 10 years. I worked helpdesk in high school and through most of college, doing both full time work and full time school. I graduated with an IT related college degree. Once I got my education the world wasn't handed to me on a silver platter nor was I doing anything significant with my degree. I was still jockeying phones like a monkey. That being said, it wasn't like I was answering phones in a Verizon call center either. I was basically a hybrid level 1, 2, 3, and Sysadmin employee rolled into one. Opportunity comes at different times and I would tend to think that after a year at any organization of being on the helpdesk, you really wouldn't be looked at as being a candidate for a Sysadmin position. On top of that you don't have a degree or certifications (this is a guess). Is IT really your passion? Or is it a hobby? To be honest with you, the poster sounds extremely green and reality needs to set in that you aren't going to be maintaining full systems after a year of being on the helpdesk anywhere. I would imagine the same story could be told from the perspective of a developer. It's not like you would be coding production stuff after a full year of helpdesking. You need to put in your time and due diligence, get your education, and show that you are deserving of the next level. This is all day one stuff guys...

MSc is always a good idea

[prefec2]

You should not really bother if the loss of income over these 2-3 years is it worth to go the university. As I understand your post, your job sucks big time. So you want a better job. Most certainly you will get more money with a MSc than with a BSc but the money is not the main reason to educate yourself. If you become a software developer or even an software engineer you get a job with many different facets. You have definitely more options and this allows you to switch jobs if they become boring. And still you can use your new expertise and knowledge in different contexts. From my point: Software engineering is really nice, because every project is different. You have to work with different clients and learn their lines of thought. You also learn how their business works and how they think their business works which is not always the same.

I would say: if you could finance it, go the university and get an MSc.

Re:A 'masters' is 'web development'...? Is that at

[prefec2]

Must be. I would go for software engineering or knowledge engineering or system analysis, fault detection/prevention, security. Web development is just one thing were you can use all these ideas.

I'm in the same boat, this what I'm doing...

[Anonymous Coward]

to get out of it.

I'm a tier 2 desktop support tech, basically doing the same stuff you are (jammed printers, reimaging, occasional AD maintenance.) Currently I hold a BA in Political Science, and an MCP for XP support. This is my first "real" job. From what I have gleaned from the people I work with and for, my best shot at being promoted to next level is to go for my MCSA or the 2008 equivalent of the MCITP. I've been mulling around going back to grad school and getting an MBA in IT administration, but this path will completely remove me from the actually IT work. I plan on going to the route of Server Admin, and to get my foot in the door all I need is the MCITP. I work in the government sector, so I dunno if more is required for private companies. Anyway, I dont really recommend trying to advance yourself in the desktop support field because there isn't much room to grow. Once you become a lead or a manager you've pretty much peaked unless you have other skills such as project management or IT related. Anyway good luck, from one IT monkey to another.

write some code

[jbolden]

A 200 person company offers you flexibility in how things are done. It will be a good place to get some development experience first hand. Law firms are incredibly cheap when it comes to IT staff. What I would suggest is:

1) Learn a language
2) Start automating stuff, start having code in production that is yours.

Something like an Access / Filemaker pro database should be an easy first project. Alternately something like VBA if they use lots of spreadsheets or some Perl to do automation of system administration tasks.

3) Start making the systems more custom and more complex. Start bringing in tools and services for the lawyers. So that you are doing administration not just unjamming printers. You'll need to work some extra hours in the beginning but very very quickly you are likely to start getting raises. Even if that doesn't happen you will be able to talk about work you've done.

Re:write some code

[geekoid]

"Something like an Access "

Only if you hate your employer and your career. Using acess is a deal with the devil. Companies save money now, but later it will cost much, much more.

Re:write some code

[jbolden]

Access -> SQL server isn't that bad. Access makes front end creation easy. It just isn't multi user. Once you need multi user just have Access utilize the same tables in SQL server. Then if you want you can swap out the interface.

The real problem with Access comes from inconsistent data and multiple copies. But that is a result of not making the Access -> SQL server switch early enough.

FileMaker Pro and Access (I've never tried OO BASE but I assume it is similar) provide excellent development environments for the bigger than a spreadsheet smaller than an Oracle app type custom software. Besides his goal is to learn.

Solve the problem, not the symptom

[Anonymous Coward]

The Help Desk is the IT equivalent of starting in the mail room. It's really not all that bad, you are gaining valuable experience on solving a wide range of problems. If you are bored and frustrated because the same problems keeping coming up, then solve the problem, not treat the symptom. Why is Outlook hanging? Why is the printer jamming (cheap paper?)?
Who would you promote, someone who works all weekend to upgrade software on all the computers, or someone who spends a week implementing a software management system to handle upgrades? Both solved the same problem, but the one who took longer will be able to do the next upgrade within an hour.
20 years ago I started on the Help Desk in a 200 computer legal department. Within a year I was off the help desk.

Similar situation

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually was in a very similar situation. I had been on Helpdesk at a slightly larger law firm (600+ users) for over 4 years....and nothing was happening for me, despite talking to my boss about it for years. I finally started looking for a new position, and after about a year, got an offer somewhere else. It was a lateral move, but nothing was happening with my current situation, so I had nothing to lose. I went with the offer to my boss, and within 24 hours, he had shuffled the entire department around to allow me to get off the phones and move me into a more supervisory role, as well as more Systems Admin stuff. After he did this, it was pretty much a no brainer for me to stay.

So I guess maybe you should look for another job? It seems that at least where I work, that is how the game is played. You have to threaten to leave to get promoted/moved around. It's not the best. If your current company values you enough, they will find a way to keep you. And if not, you have a chance to move up in a new organization.

Learn UNIX

[rhaacke]

There are absolutely no desktop issues to deal with and the servers and applications seldom crash/lock up. You make more money too.

Career Road Map

[OneLessThing]

The one question I haven't seen yet is: What are your long term goals? Without knowing that, most of this is speculation at best (IMO).

You can now get a Masters...

[rnturn]

... degree in web development?

I would have thought that even an Associate degree for something like that would be a stretch. I guess colleges and universities really have become nothing more than expensive trade schools.

You are at a similar point to me...

[Melanie1001]

After 14 years of different levels of computer support and helpdesk, from setting up AS/400 terminals to admining a variety of server types and everything in the middle...I've reached an odd point. Sometimes I wonder if I'm just unlucky, but I have never worked in a place where the users were tech savvy. If anything most seem to be going backwards. I spend more time now holding a user's hand than I ever used to. And after all these years burnout is settling in. Sadly, unless you move beyond anything in the even remotely support range, things do not seem to get better. I've started taking seminars regarding starting my own business - not a tech related business I may add. While I love technology in all it's forms, I don't believe I can go much longer in the support area. I agree with the other posters that taking yourself in another direction may be your best thing. You may decide that you do want to continue with support. You may discover that you never want to do that job again. Either way, you seem to be young and unattached, this is the time of your life to try new things! We all get stuck in a rut it seems, that this 'career' we've chosen first has to be what we do for the rest of our lives. It isn't, and for better growth as a human, it shouldn't be.

hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was in your position back in the day, I bought 4 cheap computers (no vmware back then) and essentially taught myself IT. I networked them, installed Netware, various versions of window, and some Linux flavors. I then broke them and tried to fix them. It was a great learning experience and within about 4-5 months I had practical, hands on experience with the operating systems. I also picked up a CCNA kit off ebay for $2000 (which can now be had for a couple hundred) consisting of a switch and a few routers and played with those also. I started my own company on the side, did a little bit of freelance consulting, and that was the ticket out of helpdesk.

My suggestion would be to specialize. There are many "jacks of all trades" out there (myself included, to a certain degree) but if you want to stay in IT I'd recommend specializing in a certain area (Microsoft, Unix, development, cisco, etc etc). From my experiences, a formal education in anything IT related will mean nothing. Most managers look for certifications and experience.

BS in CS

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have a BS in CS and are working in support, theres probably a reason.

Just hang in there.

[Anonymous Coward]

I started working in IT in 2004 for a hospital on their helpdesk. I worked my way into a full time position, to later get promoted to Sr. Helpdesk and became a mentor to the people under me. Granted, I had to work the graveyard shift to take the promotion... After I left the hospital, I did a bunch of temping. I mean, a lot of temping.. I had 9 different positions at different companys over a year and a half time period. I later started working for a reality research company... learned a bunch, learned how the servers run etc.... I left that company and started where I am now.. as a desktop support guy. Got my MCSE, CCNA and I was just promoted to Network Administrator on tuesday. What I'm getting at, you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. certs and experience can trump education. My now ex-co worker had a MIS ( masters of Information science ) and a CCNA.. They laid him off and promoted me. Hang in there... it will happen sooner than you think. Granted, I had to wait almost 7 years.

Anonymous Coward.

[Anonymous Coward]

Get out of IT and become a Lawyer .. at least they most likely will not ship that job out to cheap labour in another country that only follows a problem out line. Most current brain dead exec when wanting to increase the bottom line and have no idea how to innovate they just cut.
Lets start outsourcing the overpaid exec positions, it does not take a college degree to just cut positions. It takes a real leader to keep the positions and think in other ways to help the bottom line.

That's what we need more of..

Take the time...

[hesaigo999ca]

Think yourself how lucky you are to still have a job, while you are working on a small personal project at home.
Remember the times when all those people at work had problems using Outlook because it wasn't configured right.
As you develop a little script that fully reconfigures Outlook to include personal Archiving and a whole slew of other things
that seem to be repeated at your job as requests people ask from you, then you will see the light.

If you have to do something more then 3 times, script it.
Then when you see something needing to be done more then 10 times, publish your script open source and let your work
(careful of proprietary rights here though)...see that the script you created is posted on a site with lots of traffic.

Not only does it look like you are a part of another community (the dev forums), but it shows you keep up to date, and help keep others do the same....as well as think of innovative ways to improve performance at work...this goes a long way!

Re:Take the time...

[geekoid]

"Think yourself how lucky you are to still have a job, "

Screw that, it's a pathetic excuse to keep sheep from leaving.

Network to find the position you want, and get it. You may know some in that position, call them and tell them you want a similar position. Go to your local employment agency and see if they ahve a program where local employers come in. If they hire people in the position you want, go and meet them. Dion't sit there in back and just listen. Talk to them, see if there hiring, find out what they want.
GET their card, and in 60 days call them, reintroduce yourself and let them know you now have the skils they were looking for. Most of the time this goes no where, BUT the only person where this would work against you is someone ass you don't want to work for anyways and it takes a little time. If it ends in an interview, then it was 3 minutes of your time.

When meeting people dress appropriately. And here is a clue: that doesn't mean what YOU think is appropriate, it means what THEY think is appropriate because you are trying to get something from them.

Social networking wins in these situations.
Of course, there are some industry where he will have to go back to school.

Re:Take the time...

[hesaigo999ca]

Yes,yes,yes, you say the same stuff that most headhunters do when they try to help you find a job.

However, when was the last time you lost a job during an economic crisis, where everyone else was also losing your job, you did not have that much money saved up for the time in between jobs, and had
a family to feed?

The last great depression was before you were born, this is a historic event taking place, where people are losing jobs by the hundreds of thousands...let's not even talk about the ones that were already looking for a job before this happened. And most companies have frozen their job hiring...
so when I say be thankful to have a job....I mean anyone with half a mind to know what I mean.

This holds true for the IT field

[Anonymous Coward]

Help desk unfortunately lacks any kind of innovation on the job or creativity for most who do it. If you cannot be either of those things in IT or any other job in general you will unless your a robot or slightly crazy dislike the job in time. Really you should see these kinds of jobs as temporary and use them to fill the gaps between more creative and innovative ventures. I have met countless people in help desk jobs with all kinds of backgrounds so I do not think I'm alone in this thought as many of the them were looking for other work or getting education while they were there.

do it yourself (by your bootstraps)

[Anonymous Coward]

having worked 4 years at a helpdesk, I made the transition to fulltime software engineer. My advice is to start programming at home, try to address problems at work with software solutions when possible, build up a portfolio of experience and projects that you can use while interviewing. At some point, you'll stop being a helpdesk operator, and become a coder.

Find a job in a college

[rizzo420]

I would suggest finding a job in a college. It'd be a lateral move, but you would be in a MUCH different environment. I would suggest finding a small college, too. The benefits are great. The pay may not be the best, but most of them offer free tuition. The other benefit is that you usually get to do a whole lot more than just simple support, though support is your main task.

What Have You Done?

[Ikonos]

What have you done to show your current employer or a future employer you deserve to move off the helpdesk and into a frontline position? Have you taken the time to earn new certifications? Learned new skills that could be put to use somewhere else in your organization? Just because you have worked the helpdesk for x amount of time does not entitle you to be moved up and out. I interviewed plenty of people who worked a helpdesk or tier 1 phone support position for one of my previous employers and when I asked the candidates about gaining new skills while they were in their present job almost every one of them told me they did not but would be more than happy to if I spent my money to get them the certification or training they needed for the position we were interviewing for. Take the initiative and invest in yourself and you might be surprised the opportunities that open up to you.

Go programmer

[revjtanton]

To get into a programmer position isn't that hard and you're not on the front lines. Try to find a PL/SQL programmer position and you can advance into a DBA or engineer or of-the-such position from there w/out the Masters. Thats what I'm doing and its working out well so far :) Programmer pays more than help desk too!

Go For It

[Anonymous Coward]

There is hope my friend. I started out as a help desk monkey for a local hospital while working towards my degree. I was in the same situation as you were, having to deal with stressful users and situations. But you don't have to be stuck there forever. An investment in your future is well worth the risk, both financially and emotionally. Near the brink of my meltdown, I finally graduated and now have the qualifications to move forward. I immediately applied and was offered a position as a software developer and finally got away from the users. So now I interface with fairly intelligent people. Go for it. There is nothing to regret in furthering your education. Don't let these people here say, "don't get an education, it's not worth it. I didn't go to college, and I'm successful". They may be an exception to the rule, so don't let that skew your thinking. I have been in your situation, and have since moved on, and if I had to do it all over again, I would most definitely still go to school. It's worth it....DO IT.

Reboot

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure if you just reboot yourself 3 times, all of your problems will fix themselves right up

What Value do you bring to the table

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you're looking at this problem from the wrong side (i.e. yours, and not the business). In any job or position, you aren't being paid by the hour, you're being paid for the value you bring to that hour. So if you show up for work every day, punch the clock, do your tickets, and punch out at the end of the shift, you've met the expectations of your boss and firm. But if you fail to show that you are more valuable than the position you are working in, and there is no reason to promote you..

For example, what have you done to transform the helpdesk environment and actually reduce the number of tickets coming in? Have you developed an improved troubleshooting model for your peers, determined and remediated root cause of a common issue, suggested real solutions to existing infrastructure problems, or created a script that automates the resolution of a common problem?

You work in a small company, look around for oppourtunities and show initative. Show everyone that you're being under utilized in your current role. Create value. If you can't think in this mindset, a Masters Degree won't help you - 10 years from now you'll still be pigeon holed into a dead end job and posting on newsgroups to find out what merit badge you need to move up.

Re:Learn a UNIX & link Resume Padding

[amcdiarmid]

"certs for linux but anyone who knows anything in HR will sneer at them as the meaningless drivel they are."

Anyone who knows anyone in HR is nobody. I work for a fairly savy IT company, and have worked for several other IT companies. The percentage of people in HR who know about technology close to 0%.

If those people knew about IT, they woule be called managers, not HR. In their defense have to know a verly little bit about a wide variety of work sectorys, and a lot about HR.

Take a look at some of the postings out there: "We want a MCSE/MCITS certified administrator, who is also AIX certified and certified as a CCIE. Pay

If you really want to move from help desk to a *glorified position track*, figure out which one you want. You want to be a MS admin, figure out which technologies sound interesting to you. Then figure out how to get your MSITS (or whatever they are calling MCSE these days.) Get your company to *lend* you a good computer or two to set up a virtual environment to test this. If you want to do Linux admin, try the same cert BS with Linux stuff.

As a techie,I may think that certifications are bogus, and only serve to tell you what advertized features actually work - but they tell a HR drone something else: 1)You know enough about the tech to have passed a vendor test. 2)The vendor *may* help you more than some uncertified schmuck. 3) You *may* know how to learn, and be able to apply it in a beneficial way to the company.

Personally, as a SR Sys Support Specialist (Dealing with MS, VMware, and Citrix mostly), I find that I have help desk zombies interrupting me every five minutes with issues that they should have done themselves...

Screw going back to school

[geekoid]

make contacts in the industry you are interested in, and focus on the specific details of the job.
SOcial networking isn't a new thing, and it works.

First...

[Anonymous Coward]

we should kill all the lawyers.

Get another job, and become a sysadmin.

[talldean]

You'd probably need a BS CS before going for a decent MS CS. The four tracks in front of you sound like, in order of probability: 1. Helpdesk Manager 2. System Administrator 3. Web Designer 4. Software Developer/Web Developer System administrator is a jump you can make with a few certifications and/or a bit of luck. Web designer is a pretty full field, and it tops out pretty quickly. Web developer requires a touch more school in most cases. Get another helpdesk job. Bounce between a few until you find one that's lower stress, and lets you learn what you want to learn in downtime. Strongly consider system administration, as you can get there from where you are the most quickly, especially in a company willing to promote from helpdesk to junior admin.

As someone who has worked in the advertising...

[Anonymous Coward]

- Advertising, which tends to be about making a product, company, or political cause look better than it really is.

Not necessarily. Advertising is a lot more than just large companies trying to brainwash people with the latest cheesy tv ads.

I used to work for a company that dealt with Internet advertising (Ad Words, Search Engine Optimization, conversion management, analytics consulting...) and employed about 25 people. We had some rather large clients (countrywide and even some international companies and one political organization) but many were a lot smaller.

I met a lot of people with nice and new business ideas that I couldn't have even imagined myself. I knew that there were a lot of people who honestly could have benefitted a lot of their service but had never heard of it or even realized that such might exist. I took great joy in helping them.

I also left the business because a lot of my job involved interacting with the customers who could sometimes be real assholes. Some just forget that companies they make business with consist of real people and aren't just faceless entities.

Gov't contractor

[Gilmoure]

Try to get a tech job with a gov't contracting company, like Lockheed Martin or SAIC. They pretty regularly have entry level tech jobs that only require 'ability to get a clearance'. Once you have a gov't issued clearance (either DOD, DOE, etc.), you're golden. The cost to the contractors for this clearance is around $10k-$20k. Once you have it, doors open as you're now cheaper to hire. Also, the contracting companies usually have their own online tech training and internal certs as well as tuition reimbursement (you're now an asset to them and the better trained, the more money they get hiring you out). Finally, the gov't isn't going to be outsourcing tech work. It all has to be done here in the U.S.

Good luck!

Use your skills in other areas

[barnyjr]

Working my way through college, I realized that I had no desire to be stuck in a cubicle all day long but my passion was still computer science. So I decided to use my skills in something more exciting. IT / CS skills apply in a lot more unconventional fields than you might realize.

I chose to become a forensic computer examiner for a medium-sized law enforcement agency. I get to use my passion in a job that offers lots of excitement as well. What other job can you spend weeks analyzing bits and pieces of a suspect's hard drive and then go kick a door in and make an arrest? To each his own, but this is how I made myself happy in my career.

Certification is the fastest path

[Anonymous Coward]

Depending on the market you're in, the MS certifications can go a long way. The best are the C# (Web or WinForms / WPF) or SQL. There is still a huge market for .NET and database development. SharePoint is becoming huge as well, so you may consider that cert. This is the way I went from making 56k to 98k in one and a half years (although the market was stronger when I started). FYI, I already had my BS in CS. I am now working on my masters in a business related subject (not MBA).

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[xp_fetchbeer]

Daniel_Staal is correct. Get out now before you are trapped. Idiot users who call you now are a pain to deal with. Wait until you are dealing directly with their bosses. I've worked in nearly every role since college from help desk, to developer, to database administration and finally to management several years ago. My experience has been that things only get worse. Get out now! At least get away from the law firm environment. Attorneys will never view you as more than a pool boy or gardener, and they are physically incapable of acknowledging that someone without a juris doctorate could be intelligent.

Missing the Opportunities at HelpDesk?

[mpapet]

I would argue that formal training is not what it's cracked up to be for most of us, so going back to school might not work out as planned.

Okay, so your current position lacks a clear path to upward mobility. If the question is really about upward mobility in your career, then consider the following.

There are critically important political skills you can learn on help desk. As is often the case with the more technically inclined, their social skills are lacking. The social skills I'm referencing are more about the machinations of influence and business communication. In my experience, senior/executive IT have excellent social skills. They end up getting paid more for managing the technical experts because they look/act like a manager/exec and can communicate as an executive.

If that made no sense, then just look for valuable opportunities to strengthen your skill set on the job. Strengthen those weak areas and take them elsewhere if the employer does not value them. Universities probably don't teach what you want to get out of your career.

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[Anonymous Coward]

the fact that they cannot hire an idiot apprentice kid under them ... who in 3 years of training will set themselves up

The guild system existed for exactly this purpose (preventing unwanted competition).

Going sideways...

[Bobfrankly1]

There are many good suggestions here, but you mentioned going sideways into another help desk. That *may* work for you. I worked in one form of a help desk, then transitioned to another, better paying support desk. 1.8 years later I'm doing server work, and the only calls I field are the ones that the help desk can't fix. If you're up against a wall, you can leave the building (go back to school) or walk alongside the wall until you find the door into the next room, and hope it has bags of cash. =D

Re:Going sideways...

[Bobfrankly1]

There are many good suggestions here, but you mentioned going sideways into another help desk. That *may* work for you. I worked in one form of a help desk, then transitioned to another, better paying support desk. 1.8 years later I'm doing server work, and the only calls I field are the ones that the help desk can't fix. If you're up against a wall, you can leave the building (go back to school) or walk alongside the wall until you find the door into the next room, and hope it has bags of cash. =D

And I forgot to mention that this was done with no formal education, and and brain infested with ADD

Certifications maybe

[theyulman]

One quick way to get out of Help Desk role is certification.
BUT! Choose it wisely, CCNA is worth nothing in the market right now, simply because there are too many.
CCSA and CCSE for example (CheckPoint certification) seems hot right now for two reasons.
1- Security is still the fastest growing expenses in IT
2- CheckPoint tend to be purchased by large corporation, such as banks and certified personnel is hard to find for CheckPoint customers

Getting Beyond the Helldesk

[viralMeme]

"Do any Slashdotters who have made it beyond the helpdesk have any knowledge or wisdom to impart? Is formal education a good avenue, or would I better off moving back home, getting a mindless but low-stress job, and teaching myself technologies in my free time?"

Get out right now and start your own business. Attend start-your-own-business courses in the evening. Start a small repair/data recovery business with an Internet cafe/print service on the ground floor and build up a clientele base. If you can't afford a premises use your garage ..

2 years

[mujadaddy]

I got my MS and it took 2 years and a 1200 mile move to get a job. I'm lazy, though.

I don't have a degree. Do animation for a living.

[benjin]

Hi! I thought I would chime in on that bit of advice. My first reaction was to say, "Stay away from my neck of the woods!" Grolaw does make a good point. If the poster does go into a specialty then I would say film is a good way to go. Hollywood pays better than most and the hours are usually nine or ten in the morning till six at night. Average pay for decent animation using AfterEffects, Finalcut, and a 3D package of your choice is about $65.00 per hour. Not the best pay in the world but good enough to get you out of loans and drunk on the weekends. Not to mention if you actually have a talent for doing this stuff, people will actually pay for you to come to them. The perks of being close to Hollywood are beyond listing and happen all the freakin time. A couple of things that happen on a daily basis are things like open bars for clients (and you) when they come into to pixel fuck the project and of coarse catered lunches most of the time.

I work in Minneapolis and pull down a full time jobs worth of freelance with biomedical companies and commercial houses without even really advertising myself. If you can read a manual to pick up new tricks, keep a deadline, and tell a joke while someone watches you work then it's a good gig to get into. I will say that you should stay away from Flash work and web stuff unless you want to specialize in that because no one is going to pay you the same rate for Flash work. Just doesn't look the same as real animation and film. Don't tell anyone what you're degree is in. They don't care and it can land you in the IT end of film which doesn't get the rockstar treatment and leaves you covered in dust from working in the dub room. All people care about is your portfolio. If you have cool projects under your belt and can bring that level of production to the client then they will throw the money at you. It's all an image thing. But in a good way. Your paid to make things look pretty and not a thing more. No APIs, Code revisions, compatibility checks etc.. Just make it look pretty and walk away. You would be amazed how much brain you have left without keeping up with what new code needs to be added. If you do have a knowledge of something like JAVA or Python and you can set up sophisticated animation that runs on code then you can get paid a hell of a lot more and can walk into a lot of high level production houses and pull five or six grand in a week without working half of the time some one else would.

So in closing I say don't do it. The less competition the better. Stay away from the mid west too! ;)

good jobs come from the inside

[anger99]

I have been a tech since 14 ( 28 now, dos age 4) and now work maintaining a mainframe( the z800) for a datacenter ( great job). I have been the on-site guy for big companies that want the job done asap, and will cut any corner to do so. As well as the small companies that like to do good work for their customers so they will come back. I have seen about a 3-5 year burnout rate for techs in all fields of support, and the only ones that have job are the ones who network the best. Side note: Support as a whole is not a place to stay, the iron assed lifers have a certain attitude that they have that will allow them, and only them, to continue past the initial 5 years of self-loathing and humanity draining known as helldesk. These are just good places to find out which of your talents in computers will best serve your future. So: 1) NETWORK NETWORK NETWORK !!! 2) Do great work, everyone can do good work, but great work stands out p.s. take any shot you get, this eceonmy is very unforgiving right now, but just right now

Advancement.

[Anonymous Coward]

I was in a similar position whereas noone wanted to hire me because I had no formal education, but I had several years experience. With working full time, and paying bills, I could not afford college either. I chose the military, specifically the Navy. I was able to work a full time job, AND go to school, and the best part of it all, was that I got paid in the process. I got out after a 4 year tour, and two weeks later I landed a job in IT doing server support instead of helpdesk.

Go electrician, not plumber!

[Medievalist]

Submitter is in the UK, not the US. Electrical work is the way to go, not plumbing.

UK mains are high enough voltage to be mildly dangerous, and have inordinately high safety requirements (fuse in every outlet, for example). Plus, there is a cultural resistance to DIY electrical work, it generally just "isn't done". So, most people call the expert and pay him well.

English plumbing is famous world-wide for its baroque design and lack of reliable function. When I visit the UK I prefer to stay in places that advertise "American style plumbing" - and yes, they do put that in advertisements. Problems are often in the drains, so you would frequently be up to your elbows in the human waste stream. Yet (by necessity, perhaps) there is less cultural resistance to DIY plumbing, and with the introduction of glued plastic pipe it's become relatively easy for the homeowner, which drives wages down for plumbers at the same time that it cuts down on the service business opportunities.

Don't bother with fiber, it's unlikely to be as popular as copper in your lifetime.

If you can get the Master's, do it.

[Anonymous Coward]

It will provide income benefits for life. Seriously.

Helpdesk

[Anonymous Coward]

an internal helpdesk for only 200 users - at that size i'm suprised it's not outsourced - count yourself lucky.

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[Daniel_Staal]

That occurred to me when I drove in last night, and found the fiber guy there ahead of me...

(This was just after posting the above.)

Options are nearly limitless

[HikingStick]

Unless you really want to change the nature of your work (i.e., pursue that CS degree with a database focus) you do have plenty of options, though some of them may be limited now due to the state of the economy.

You don't state how many IT folks work for your current employer. If you are the only one, you could pitch bringing in an assistant (PT or FT) to handle the nuissance jobs. The selling point to management is that doing so would free you up to do work that can add value to the company (e.g., automate processes, plan/coordinate infrastructure needs, improve IT budgeting and PC purchasing cycles, investigate alternative software options for key business systems)--assumin you have the skills and ambition to make that happen.

If there are already two or three of you, and if you have seniority (either in time served or in technical skill), pitch for you to become a Tier 2 support person--someone who only handles the issues that can't be resolved by the other techs. Similar to the first scenario, this would allow you to make value-added contributions to the company (during the time freed by not handling as large a percentage of the calls).

Moving sideways is not a bad thing at all. You may be able to land a job with like or better salary, or perhaps better benefits. The key is to be selective about your move. Investigate any possible companies, and be sure to understand whether or not they would have opportunities for growth. Don't even interview with a company that would put you in a comparable role, unless you can visualize a career path within that company (a path that might take you out of IT for a time).

Consider jobs on the periphery of IT, or that would benefit from your knowledge of IT: business analyst and systems analyst positions, sales positions. While usually not hands-on (at least with hardware), they will allow you to leverage your knowledge while picking up what is (in my opinion) something critical for openin up real opportunities for advancement in IT: business experience. Yes, techies can advance based only on their technical skills, but my experience has shown they either find the plateau they love or they need something more to land better gigs. A skilled tech is one thing, but a skilled tech who can bridge the gap that often exists between the business- and tech-sides of the business has an advantage. Given two candidates with similar tech backgrounds, I'd take one who also has business experience over the straight-tech any day. I'd even take someone with a slightly weaker tech background who has the business experience, since technology training is always an option. While these may seem to take you away from IT, if you view them as strategic moves they can really benefit you in the long term: when you come back to a traditional IT job you will have more experience and a broader perspective that you can sell as benefits to the company.

Find ways to manage user expectations. Methods will vary, but you could set aside one or two hours each day where you deliberately do not answer the phones or reply to email messages. See if management will let you schedule your workday one or two days each week so that you either start or end your day before or after the core business hours. For example, I find things at my current employer really ramp up at 8 AM (the office staff start time), so I try to get in by 6 AM at least once a week so I can get in two hours with limited interruptions. Develop a problem classification system (a simplified SLA for your work), get it reviewed and approved by management, and communicate it to users. When my users can print to any number of printers throughout the complex, there's no need for me to jump up to resolve a printer jam on one printer. I tell my users that I'll drop by in a bit (I estimate a time) after I finish something on which I'm working, and I instruct them to use another printer in the interim. If the problem is actually critical (e.g., the printer that is jammed is the only one that can print overs

Re:Distractions normal. Support is part of other j

[Anonymous Coward]

1. A masters in Astronomy may not help as a developer.

There, fixed that for ya. What on earth makes you think that a masters in astronomy would help a developer!? Duh!

Do 50/50

[Anonymous Coward]

I have been programming computers for 10 years as a free lancer. Presently I reside in Los Angeles and am feeling the pain of the weak job market. I went to school for computer science and did not complete the degree - I was recruited before completion. I find that most people look at my experience and less my education. The education has been a benefit indirectly. The fact that I can do boolean algrebra is a good skill for thinking but not earning money. I would look at taking some courses without the goal of a degree, and at the same time acquire useful skills: databases, a handful of popular languages. That is something you can do while monkeying your present desk.

I'm in the very same situation

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a lawyers firm but I do feel your pain. Im getting a degree in environmental science and I'll get out of this ASAP !
If you are in a situation much like mine there is NO place for you up in the ladder ! so the only direction is getting down and up another ladder !

Important advice

[Anonymous Coward]

Studying security is worthwhile. Maybe getting some certifies and going to the market as a security consultant.
Not easy, lots of work and tough studies. However, the payback is remarkable: 100k/year.

certificated

[ooocmyooo]

Hi, I would propose that you do some certifications. this is less time consuming than full-time studies and if you search for a new employment you have a big + you can even ask your company if they take over the costs, some of them like to educate their employees. greetings, vitaminx

Get Your CCNA Cert

[ZaskarX]

Start working on your Cisco CCNA certification. This is the best career move you can make if you want to stay in IT; network admins/engineers are always in high demand, even in the bad economy. I was in your shoes a few years ago and attended the hands-on Cisco Network Academy training courses at my local community college. It was a tough cert especially since I know almost nothing about networking but worth every hour and penny spent. I was offered a job as a network admin for $15k more a year before I had even taken the test. My user support days are now behind me and that is the best feeling in the world.

I was in your situation once

[fiannaFailMan]

I was a victim of being thrown in at the deep end and didn't last long in my phone support role - thankfully. If the economy is weak and you have a bit of money to tide you over for a year, by all means go into full time education, but to be honest it might be better to stick at this job and teach yourself what you can in your own time. I'm a self taught man. I have no formal training in web development, but I'm a web developer now. My degree was in Manufacturing Engineering, and that has always been an asset when it comes to interviews because it helps me to stand out from all the Computer Science degree holders. The fact that I taught myself is also an asset, since in this dynamic world an insightful employer will be more impressed by your ability to pick up new skills rather than the specific skills you have now, as long as you know enough to get the job done to some extent at first you'll be fine. Where to get experience? The beauty of web dev is that you can work as a freelancer, doing pro-bono work for non profit organisations to begin with just to get yourself up to speed and build up a portfolio.

There's nothing as soul destroying as sitting at the bottom of the IT ladder knowing that there are people only one rung above you that have a much better life. But you can haul yourself up there.

Good luck!

Web Dev in 1 year?

[Jane Q. Public]

That is what I did during the last big slump... went back to school.

But even if you have a current Bachelor's in Computer Science, if you think you can get a decent education in Web Development in only 1 year, you are very much mistaken.

Forget taking the shit........go for the cream!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you answered your own question: "Is formal education a good avenue, or would I better off moving back home, getting a mindless but low-stress job, and teaching myself technologies in my free time?"
Yes and yes. Education gets you in the door. "Tinkering" shows that you can actually implement something as opposed to regurgitating back some non-real world theory b.s.. Look at some of the most successful people in the world...........did they take some special magical class to get where they are? Hell no! They figured things out for themselves. You do not have to sit in a classroom and have some teacher cram data down your throat. You do not need to hide your face in books. If you are interested in "blah" then go learn "blah" via internet searches, books, other people, etc.... If you don't like the hole you are in then get out. You are the captain of your ship........start charting your course!!!

Re:The Taxonomy of IT professionals is as follows.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the funniest post I've read all week! I definitely fall into the category of 'Managerius Pseudogeek'... a clueless 20-something year old child with a paper that says bachelor of science.. hahaha

Writing good scripts stands out.

[droidsURlooking4]

I would add that as you begin to learn unix, start right away learning how to write shell scripts. You can spend a long time learning all the unix tools (which is great and you should), but never really learn to script. As an admin, your abilities will be exponentially better if you can interact with scripts & at a certain point you will have to. It's a lot more than simply being able to automate (yourself out of) a job. Shell scripts are where the lines begin to blur between programming & memorizing commands really well. Also, no matter what unix you use, you will end up compiling lots of software that someone else wrote. You need to be able to understand what it is doing, how to tweek it & understand what's going on when you (try to) compile. Otherwise you can spend countless hours trying to understand why the f*^%king library doesn't work and unresolved dependencies, &c.. only to end up out on a dark corner of a dead thread on some message board alone in quiet desperation as no one in space can hear you scream.. Oh! sorry. Yeah. Learn to script.

Try a User Experience career

[jddj]

Your front-line contact with technology users gives you insight into what's troubling them, and your tech knowledge may help you translate user needs for geeks. If you're a good communicator (and can manage not to think of your customers as lUsers), you can work on the solution side: making things easier to use.

Look for a local chapter of the UPA (Usability Professionals Association), IxDA (Interaction Designers Association), CHI (the CHI sig of SIGGRAPH), or get on Twitter and start to follow UX professionals, information architects, usability researchers to get connected.

Follow Jakob Nielsen's alertbox columns at www.useit.com, read Boxes and Arrows regularly for a taste of the work that's out there to do.

Read "Don't Make Me Think" by Steve Krug, if you read no other usability book.

HTH

IMO...

[Anonymous Coward]

A couple semi-related thoughts/opinions here, I hope you find them relevant.

1. I've got a relative that held a series of trivial jobs and then landed a help-desk position. Gave it up when he moved out-of-state and enrolled in a masters program. Graduated with some decent credentials. Now he's having issues landing a job because he's got a masters degree and only a short amount of time as a help-desk rep to refer to during interviews. IMO, if you've already got experience and credentials, the masters degree can serve to augment. If you don't have experience and credentials, the masters degree isn't going to do squat for you.

2. I was in IT for about 15 years and in a managerial role when I decided to go back and get my bachelors (yup, had no degree). I didn't go to MIT, but it wasn't Buck's College and Waffle House either. I was appalled at how easy and irrelevant the coursework was. When hiring, I'd much prefer to get someone who has two years of experience than four years of college.

3. If you want to get into development, my recommendation would be to find a high-profile open-source project you're excited about and start to contribute. If you can show experience and a genuine interest in development it will go a long way in an interview. Who wouldn't want to talk to the candidate who - even though he'd been stuck in a helpdesk role - had been actively contributing to Tomcat/Drupal/Linux with bugfixes and commits? I'd rather talk to that guy then the guy who left his job to go get a masters degree and hasn't been working in a year.

Been negative for a long time now

[Wee]

MS certs are virtually worthless and have been for many years now. In fact, they can do more harm than good. I've worked at two places that refused to hire someone if they had the "wrong" combination of certs. Think a pair of A+ and MCSE certs will get you anywhere? Not so much.

When I was taking interview training at google, the topic of certs came up. Someone piped up with "the more of them they have, probably the less you want to hire them; grill those candidates extra super heavy to find out what they really know vs. what they think they know". Most people just giggled at the mention of certs in lieu of actual education or experience. Certs don't count for much in either regard.

The place I was at before that, they hired a sysadmin. We were all out to lunch one day and the guy is looking around in his wallet for something. He pulls out some card with MCSE (I think) stuff on it. Our boss asked, and the new admin guy says that his last company made everyone get one so they could advertise their level of expertise as a marketing gimmick (which is about the only good MS certs are for: fooling the clueless). Boss says, "You're really lucky I didn't see the letters 'MCSE' on your resume. I'd have never have hired you." He'd been burned a few times I guess, saddled with people who got a lot of certs to pad their resumes.

When I interview people, I like ot finish up with a few questions that let me know what they are like as a person. What hobbies they have, what they do for fun, etc. I typically ask what their computer/network setup is like at home. If I hear that a guy just built a wallwart embedded PC running linux so he can stream MP3s to his living room media PC, I'm thinking positive thoughts. If he only has an old eMachine and windows 98 hooked up to the net via dialup, I tend to wonder. The guy with the home computer hobbies has encountered a lot of issues the other guy hasn't, even if their work experience/education is the same. So I tend to hire guys like the hobbiest, everything else being equal.

If the submitter works in a help desk and has a bunch of outside computer-related hobbies/projects that he's worked on, that would be way more valuable than a a whole pack of certs.

-B

Re:Been negative for a long time now

[plague3106]

When I interview people, I like ot finish up with a few questions that let me know what they are like as a person. What hobbies they have, what they do for fun, etc. I typically ask what their computer/network setup is like at home. If I hear that a guy just built a wallwart embedded PC running linux so he can stream MP3s to his living room media PC, I'm thinking positive thoughts. If he only has an old eMachine and windows 98 hooked up to the net via dialup, I tend to wonder. The guy with the home computer hobbies has encountered a lot of issues the other guy hasn't, even if their work experience/education is the same. So I tend to hire guys like the hobbiest, everything else being equal.

So you exclude people from your company that have life outside of computers? If the guy with Win98 had Win98 because he was out there hiking, biking, or helping kids learn to read, that's a negative?

I'm not sure how well your theory holds up; more computers at work means he's more likely to encounter something. At home, he's just running his own little network with two computers, he may not hit a problem at all, because he's not doing anything complicated with it.

Re:Been negative for a long time now

[Wee]

No, not really. But all other things being equal, a guy who dabbles in, say, HAM radios or robotics will have experiences more desirable than if they fly kites or tie fishing flies or whatever.

Yeah, it's purely anecdotal. But it seemed to hold up.

-B

Get the Master's (with qualifiers)

[skinfaxi]

I was in a similar situation. I got accepted into a Master's program that offered assistantships. That meant I worked part time for them fixing computers for the college, they paid my tuition and a stipend. I wasn't getting rich but it was enough to scrape by on. You can also get student loans to make up any deficit, the interest rates are not bad right now (3% ish).

I learned a lot in the classes, and working in the assistantship. And I got a much better job when I got out 2 years later.

Go back to school!

[Anonymous Coward]

Go back to school... major in CS... get a job where you sit in-front of a computer all day, never leaving your cube... be as antisocial as you like.

HellDesk

[MacViper]

Helldesk....Yeah I was with the helldesk for 5 years before I was able to switch out. I decided to do a Master's degree part-time while working full-time. I switched to a job that complimented my Master's degree. I would not advise getting out of technology, getting a low-stress IT job, and learning it on your own. I have assisted in the interview process and experience counts. If you say you work at Borders and you are learning PHP on your own, you will be expected to show a portfolio of your work. If you can balance doing an advanced degree while working, that would be the best in my opinion. There are also a lot of MIS online degrees that you could do. Another option is to save up money and do some boot camps, like CEH (certified ethical hacker), CISSP, or whatever interests you.

Master's CS

[scot4875]

This isn't really what the story author was asking, but I feel compelled to respond anyway, because it seems to be a common misconception.

A master's program in computer science should have absolutely nothing to do with web development. Or database admin tasks. Or Cisco hardware. Or Linux security. If I met someone claiming to have a "Master's in Computer Science for web development," I'd probably laugh at them and ask what scam institution they got it from. All of these subjects are just trade skills -- they're the computer equivalents of plumbing or carpentry. (Don't get me wrong though -- they're valuable skills. They just aren't computer science.)

Computer science is designing a new algorithm to more efficiently lay out the box model that web pages use. It is coming up with a new data structure that improves performance of database queries. It is coming up with methods to automatically discover your network's spanning tree. It's proving that the methods used for authentication are, in fact, secure. Computer science is NOT programming.

I have a CS degree, and my current job as a web developer is certainly *not* computer science.

Of course, if the story's submitter hadn't spent so much time getting wasted in college and had taken things more seriously, he'd have known this. But it's nice to know that the value of my degree is diluted by people like this who don't even know what their degree *means*.

--Jeremy

Re:Master's CS

[Hogwash McFly]

The reason behind my consideration of specialised Computer Science Masters courses is that I didn't want to do just another year of general Comp Sci and revisit the dry theory. I'm not massively interested in file systems, writing compilers or low-level operating system functions.

If an MSc in Computer Forensics, Database Systems or Internet Computing is worth junk then fine, I was just asking. All I am trying to do is better myself so that I can spend my working day doing something fulfilling instead of something that I hate. I'm not trying to cheat the system or do it for the money or bullshit my way through. I'm willing to start from the beginning.

I'm sorry for not taking CS seriously, but I don't think you could graduate with the average I did and be completely clueless about Computer Science and what it entails. Sure, it doesn't == programming but it is often seen as the endpoint to a CS degree, and with me not thinking I could become a fully-fledged programmer, I was thinking that I could be in some form of development so that I am not just supporting the usual IT crap.

short answer: YES

[Anonymous Coward]

But make sure you decide carefully which skillsets to give priority to. I'd recommend having a look at TED, MMPORG / gaming, and Second Life before deciding. Make sure income is sure because if you decide to junk a job and then lose the other, you might end up hating your decision or yourself, which isn't justified looking at the multitude of amazing technologies coming up and much lesser people focussing on those at the moment. Combinatorial genomics isn;t as bad as it sounds, for example - it may need programming, but teaching it to a lot of people needs visualisations and programming of simulations and animations - those things are where you can make a career of quality.

program

[spads]

Ideally you should go to a place where they are really teaching programming. In my experience, first rung higher ed. (ie. 4(+) year programs) is more of a mill, where they need to keep their students base. Thus, they will lower their standards some. I was fortunate to attend junior college courses in an urban center, largely taught part time by professional developers. No one was there for the paper. Everyone was there to hone their skills, and the labs were demanding. I think you could do a lot of this stuff on your own, too, though that requires considerable legwork (and ideally someone to advise you) in addition to the programming. If you can take a couple of years off to go to school, great. Otherwise, continue to toil (helps develop character!) and take one class part time. A home webserver install is a must (windows: http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp-windows.html), and ideally a (Fedora or debian) linux install. Btw, I came to this field from science and have no CS degree. DIG IT AND HAVE FUN!!!!!! :D

Well said...

[Amigori]

Well said. Thank you for posting that. I wish more people understood the points you made, especially about IT being about service.

Don't do it unless you love the subject

[JustNiz]

>>> I've been considering a full-time Masters degree in a specialized Computer Science area such as databases or Web development, but I don't know if the financial cost and the loss of a year's income and experience can justify it.

Unfortuately the .com era produced an effect where everybody and their dog got a quickie CS Masters and got programming work just because they saw Steve Jobs and Bill Gates driving Ferraris. Not because they actually had any interest in, or even real clue about computers. As soon as the economy levelled out they were the first people to get fired or bail out and go back to being a realtor or whatever. Also because there were so many of them and the usual scenario was that they had no actual technical skills, it permanently damaged the whole environment and credability of good developers that actually could do the job.

Now the economy is bad again, as a hiring manager I'm seeing the same pattern of monkies that actually think adding 9 month CS masters to their humanities (or whatever) degree will make them able to play equally with (or even be superior to) Engineers-by-nature having a 3 or 4 year CS Batchelors degree and multiple years of relevant work experience.

My answer is if the only interest you have in any subject is because of the money you MIGHT earn from it, then don't waste your life. Anyway you're never gonna actually make it in a field you don't otherwise give a crap about.

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[cjacobs001]

Fiber is not yet ready for installation 'in the house', is it? Are there any normal household devices that will hook straight to fiber ? 'lemme no Thanks

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[Daniel_Staal]

Actually, many high-end pieces of stereo equipment have optical jacks.

But even if you are hooking up computers via fiber-to-ethernet converters, fiber is at least as easy to run when putting in a new house (especially if you want to run a gigabit-capable network), and is much more future-proof.

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[nxtw]

Are you posting from 1999?

Toslink isn't high end. It's on almost everything one might hook up to a stereo receiver. Many computers have it, including just about all Macs. The Xbox/Xbox 360 and PS2/PS3 have it. Digital cable and satellite receivers have it. Cheap DVD players have it.

Cat6 is suitable for gigabit ethernet, and the money spent on fiber could be better spent on just about anything. And Cat6a is suitable for 10GBaseT up to 100 m.

think of it as an experience in learning something

[superwiz]

It may seem very rote, but if you are frustrated by the people you have to deal with (as your stress indicates), then you may benefit from rethinking of your approach to the whole situation. People who succeed in technology are usually perfectionists. Adapt the attitude that you'll be great at whatever you are doing right now. People you work with probably are not dumb. Their area of expertise, however, is very different from yours. In a word, look for ways to make yourself useful. If you find a conversation frustrating, don't think "I gotta get out of here" after the conversation is over. Try to figure out what the other person needed that you didn't communicate to them. Communication is one of the most valuable skills in creation of technology because most technology is created through large-scale cooperative effort. Think of your current arrangement as a training ground in communication. Once you learn how to communicate with people who are intelligent even though they are not tech-savvy, you'll become much more valuable to a technology company in which you really do want to work.

Re:Learn a UNIX & link Resume Padding

[TermV]

See I don't get this. IT people have this attitude like you can't possibly understand my ultra-specialized IT job, you HR bozo. It's not like HR is this generic homogeneous specialty. A high tech company should be hiring HR people who specialize in hiring high tech workers. These people have to understand the market and the jargon so that they can hire the right people for their market segment.

If you see stupid job postings, it's because of flawed specifications from the hiring manager. The HR department isn't going to just randomly start adding requirements to the job posting. They just post the job and screen the applicants.

Become a SysAdmin

[WhiteHorse-The Origi]

The next rung is a System Administrator. You'll need to learn a few additional OS's and a bunch of gnarly hardware. Following that, go into either Dev(programming), Sys Engr(hardware), or DB(data). After you've spent 15 years of your life working your way up the ladder, your job will be outsourced to the slums of East Beijing and the best you can hope for at that point is to start a new career in another field. Good luck! Your MS degree won't mean squat because they are easily faked(or bought) in places like India, Phillipines, Vietnam, China, etc.

MSCS=Bologney

[WhiteHorse-The Origi]

I've looked at several MSCS degrees and they are pretty weak. I taught myself 70% of the Stanford MSCS curriculum in my basement or on-the-job and the other 30% I learned in math class. Unless you can get into a top school(Carnegie Mellon, MIT) and arrange post-grad work in advance, a Master's is a waste of time/money.

Complete change of tack for a year

[Vastad]

Disclaimer: This is really more of a combined life-long regret/wish-fulfilment reply but I think you can still get a useful ping on the sonar from it.

If I was in your position, with a BSc already under the belt and (I'm guessing here) not yet hit your 30s, I would have indulged my Japanophilia and applied for the JET program. If you can get in, you'll have a year paid for (no need to burn any of your savings except for some travel expenses, toiletries and some guilty pleasures), you'll pick up a useful business language, expand your general life experience and maybe even have romance or two. Once you are in, you get preference for extending your commitment (saves them a bunch of work teaching someone new how to do their job). You get to wait out the recession too, optimisitic estimates say we'll be out of it by about 2012.

In a similar vein, a friend of mine is dropping his teaching career to drive a car to Mongolia from London for charity (there's a specific village community he's helping). He's using his savings to do it, he'll be piss poor when he's done, but the experience will be priceless. He's a good looking guy, very charming and he may even get a cool Discovery channel job out of it. I can totally picture him being that lucky.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, you can spend the recession NOT trying to have a career. It's OK. It is a little bit like trying to swim upriver doing so at a time like this.
You can KEEP your savings. You can learn (not necessarily academically) without burning what you've earned.
Consider doing something totally unrelated for a year. Who knows what doors it will open.

Now's a good time as any to buy yourself a little notebook and spend a weekend writing your ideas and dreams in it.

Don't stay in a carrier patch you don't like

[larsfh]

It sounds like you are in the beginning of your carrier, hence I can only say that it is way to soon to stay in a carrier path which you don't enjoy. We can become grumpy old men or women later on.

If you can cope financially, then I can only recommend taking a master degree in field which genuinely interests you. It will give you new opportunities. Maybe you can start with a couple of course if need the income or if you not entirely sure it is the right path.

My 2 cents ... best of luck!

Why do you want to be in IT?

[nicholdraper]

If you like software development, why do you want to be in IT? IT is essentially a service job. Sure, some larger companies strangely try to develop custom applications in their IT departments, but, most have a separate department called Engineering or R&D where software is developed. Software Engineers rarely take support calls. Tasks are project based and not crisis based. The only rub is that some companies have IT departments that have individuals who think they know something about computers. At one company, I worked on a committee rewriting company computer usage policy, I specifically added that the engineering departments lab was off-limits to IT and exempt from IT computer use rules. Due to the "police" enforcement mentality of some IT groups, and often their lack of understanding of software development, engineering groups look on IT background with some disdain. So, you will find it nearly impossible to move from IT to better software development jobs in the same company. Find friends who have made the switch and apply to them at other companies.

anonymous coward

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to return to the original poster's question for a second:

Do not do what you are planning. If going to school before and getting a CS degree got you into the help desk, what will be different about it the second time around? People don't care at all about master's degrees in CS - most are bogus. If you actually like something in the IT field, try to get experience in that, maybe by volunteering at a non-profit. Then you may get a paying job doing it. If you can't think of anything you like in IT enough to do this, go into something else. You have to have something you like about any job to let you put up with all the shit.

Be a bigger fish in a smaller pond.

[jonadab]

In a company the size of the one you're in, the people who are hired to actually run the IT department, manage infrastructure, and so on, are people who have experience doing that sort of thing. Your experience doing helpdesk stuff doesn't put your resume at the top of the stack.

One solution is to take an IT position with a smaller employer, the kind of employer that only *has* one or two people in the IT department, total, and can't afford a person just for nothing but helpdesk. You'll still have to do helpdesk-type work, but you'll also have other duties, which will gain you other kinds of experience, which will build your resume. Also, having a variety of duties will help you retain your sanity, since you won't be banging your head against the same stupid wall all the time. If you do well in such a position, you could even end up being the head of the IT department when the former guy leaves, or, if the organization is small enough, you might actually hire in as the head of a one-man department, as I did several years ago.

There are employers out there who have a hard time filling IT positions, and in some cases they believe they would not be ABLE to hire an IT person at all, because they cannot afford to pay what a large corporation pays. Small public libraries, that aren't part of a larger system or consortium, are one really good example of this; at least half of all library "system administrators" are librarians with normal user-level computer skills who got roped into looking after the computers because there was nobody else. In a lot of cases it falls in the director's lap by default, and believe me, the director has Other Things To Do, so many of them would dearly love to hire an actual IT person. I doubt very much if libraries are the only industry where this happens.

Budgets are tight right now, so you can't expect to waltz into the first place that strikes your fancy and have a job there by next Tuesday, but if you float your resume around enough places, you may be able to find a place that will take a chance on you.

Once you have experience doing the kind of work you want to do (even if it's not been your whole job), you can put that experience on your resume and then try to work your way into larger employers where you can maybe focus more on just the kind of work you like, and possibly make more money doing it. Or you might find that you actually like the variety of duties and the atmosphere of a small employer; I have found it quite enjoyable myself.

Hardcache

[hardcache]

I work too hard to deal with this stuff!! I work too hard!! I'm a Division Manager in charge of 49 people!! I drive a Dodge Stratus!!

experience is a hard road

[Anonymous Coward]

AC here.. I hate to break it to you guys but a college degree to me is an EGO shield.. I work with a bunch of college pukes and they all run from hard work..
hard work is the only way to get experience and to weather the storm of end user psychotic behavior.
You need to learn how to handle these nutjubs just like a cop on a domestic disturbance call..

And to all the egoistical IT people I say fuck you!! I've worked on programming problems, M$ workarounds on impossible
issues, etc.. All the while I have some 150 dollar an hour asshole on the other end of the phone that could'nt check if a keyboard was plugged in..

I've outdone and outsmarted all the ego maniacal assholes I've had to go to war with in my 15 year career because I have valuable experience, PERIOD..

Yes I am college educated but the only way I learned properly in IT was through self teaching. Not being in some lecture hall with an egotistical moron
who can't hack it in the real world.. Please spare me the loopholes out of hard work, it's depressing and yes the job trends are controlled by
big business, not us which doesn't say much about IT people influence in the industry..

And to those who cry of outsourcing.. Go to the blog sites and point out the security flaws these outsourcing places put in the code..
Uncover the thieves and dishonesty in outsourcing.. Call your congress reps and tell them outsourcing personal data is a matter of
national security because it directly effects the taxpayer!!! Deter it!!! fight for your jobs, this is one way to get the
word out, use the internet for your benefit not for the fat bastard CEO or the greedy manager of a call center or programming firm
that is not of your geographical location!!! Domestic jobs are your right but in this climate you have to fight and fight hard!!
If businesses did'nt outsource there would be more jobs for us and not all of them are easy, sometimes making
money takes some suffering in this world.. get used to it..

I feel your pain on the Helldesk

[Orion Blastar]

I used to work helpdesk and I worked many IT positions but mostly as a programmer.

If a college education is too expensive for you, consider a Community College part-time and earn certificates in areas you want to learn knowledge in you might be able to make a one or two year degree and then be able to work a better job than helpdesk and maybe be a web designer, entry level programmer, network administrator, or PC technician.

If you cannot afford the community college route then just get some books on the subject and study on your own time and use the software at home on your own time to learn with it. If you cannot afford books try going to your local libraries and finding books to check out for free (but mind the due-date, and remember you always can renew a book checkout by visiting the library and saying you want to renew the book).

Another cheap way is to search the Internet and find free eBooks and Wiki sites and forums on the technology you are trying to learn. But beware as some people are not always nice to noobs/newbies just trying to learn the technology and will try to scare you off. Look for how to better use search engines like Google to help you find new things.

If you cannot find an employer to hire you, try searching for some of the "freelance" web sites and offer your services on what you developed skills on to organizations and people in need of help. It might end up with job offers or getting your name out there. Put it on your resume that you are "Doing business as Yourname" where Yourname is your real name. You might need to save some of the contact info from freelance tasks for references when you look for a real job.

Good luck!

Re:Run For Your Life. Now.

[cjacobs001]

I asked the original question. I guess I haven't been paying attention..

Devices for FIber, Fiber in the house

[cjacobs001]

In the US, Verizon Telecom is the only source of the fiber optic signal all the way to the premises. And no matter what your devices seem to be capable of, Verizon does not provide, for normal residential or business accounts, fiber signal past their optical network terminal. So, you can't use a true fiber signal on your devices in the house supplied from Verizon Telecom.