Actually, I suspect the $50 goes to pay for peripheral hardware with open source drivers. The reason so many laptops are so cheap is because much of the functionality is in closed-source driver software. Hardware that doesn't depend on a bunch of proprietary kernel code often costs a little more. Easily verified by a trip to your local computer parts emporium -- compare prices on hardware with good open source drivers versus "windows only" hardware.
So $50 for avoiding the time spend researching what hardware I need to find to get good driver support for WiFi, etc, plus in the end finding out that the well supported hardware will cost me more, yes, that $50 seems well spent to me.
Well, except that we *don't* seem to be able to keep people locked up indefinitely. The mechanics of the parole system are broken. Personally, I agree that we should not use the death penalty. Killing makes us no better than the criminal. But until you convince me that the system *can* keep these same people locked up indefinitely, the we need the death penalty as a patch on beaurocratic incompentence. I'm pretty sure enough other people agree with me to keep the death penalty in place. The solution is simple -- demonstrate a system that *can* permanently separate the extremely dangerous from society. Then we can get rid of the death penalty.
pfft. There *is* a sign. It's called an "insulator". Clue for the city kids: Nobody bothers to insulate a fence wire that isn't electrified. As to everyone worried about how bad the kids will get hurt -- it's a standard farm kid prank to wire up a fence charger to something unexpected, like say, your friend's bicycle, and then stand close enough to see the reaction, but far enough away that you have a good head start (assuming you can run while laughing your @ss off). Sure, I've been bit a few times. Good way to polish your cursing vocabulary.
Those are naive assertions. Intel's production logic processes are tuned for speed, not low power consumption. That doesn't mean that the fab chemists don't have a dozen low-power processes in their hip pocket that they have demonstrated in the development fab that could be rolled out to production fabs in a matter of a few months. Processes more suitable to going after ARM market share. As to doing a new layout -- Intel has the tools and the people to simply "make it so".
Intel fabs run at max capacity on the highest gross margin per wafer designs they have available. The numbers just don't add up today for Intel doing something other than Atom.
Yes. Somebody who gets it. Intel looks at gross margin per wafer. They know pretty much exactly how many wafers they can run through a fab in a year. They can easily calculate the gross margin per wafer for any product. For a while when I was at Intel, Intel was a huge buyer of outside fab capacity -- any project that wanted to run in Intel fab had to show that their gross margin per wafer justified being on it. Otherwise, the project was told to "go fish" -- for fab. And they did, or they shut down.
Yes you are confused. I was saying that Intel has been better off for the last 7 years for having been run by a marketing guy instead of a "sand head" (physical chemist, in Intel-ese) and would have been better off with a marketing guy running the co for 10+ years.
Yes, the situation in mobile sucks. There are a host of reasons for that, mostly inherited by Otellini. The situation would suck harder if Barrett were still in charge. Otellini played the cards in his hand well.
Sure, I see your point. But for certain artists I would like to be able to opt-in to show announcements. Or get a summary. Like, how about a personalized calendar that shows the dates for nearby shows for the list of artists I select? I get a calendar, and artists get anonymized numbers about where and how many people have added them to their calendar.
I worked at Intel for 11 years and met Otellini a couple of times. First of all, he was a great guy. But much more on point, he was a clear and level-headed thinker who asked the right questions, and role-modeled the best of Intel culture in every way. He rescued Intel from the aftermath of the train wreck that was Craig Barrett, and rebuilt the company and restored the company culture.
Also note, Otellini was the first Intel CEO who came up through marketing. That was an important transition for the company in many ways, and the company is much better off for it.
Really? Then why is it difficult to find a place that will allow discussion of firearms, and advertising for firearms? After all, those are protected by the second amendment. Seems to me the knee-jerk liberal left does a fair bit of censoring of their own. Campus speech codes are another prime example -- a product of the liberal left designed to shut out speech they don't like. Intolerance is rampant.
There are nanny-state apparatchiks of every stripe. The unfortunate fact is that too many in politics simply want to fire the current nanny and bring in a replacement nanny with a different set of rules. I'd rather dismantle the machinery of the nanny state and melt it down so that it can't be rebuilt.
Anyway, I think if you take dispassionate look at what kind of speech the OP article is complaining about having censored, you'll find it is a product of the same thinking from the liberal left that brought us "offend no one" speech codes. It's also driven by marketing -- PR and marketing people first start with an "offend on one" strategy and build from there. When a person takes offense at something, it is an indication of underlying intolerance. The root problem is the intolerance.
I'd like if the liberal left showed a little tolerance shown for my lifestyle. Like being able to build a ham radio tower on my own property without having to fight nuisance law suits about how it hurts my neighbor's view. Or legally trade legal firearm components with non-prohibited persons using the same venues where I can trade electronics.
MDO == Medium Density Overlay. Core is MDF, but there is an outer skin of "some kind of" very thin, smooth, (synthetic?), laminate. It is assembled with exterior grade glues. Major application is outdoor signage. Usually needs to be special-ordered as it isn't commonly stocked at building supply centers. Machines very nicely on a CNC router, and takes finishes very well.
So I wonder how much experience the poster has with either MDO or laser cutters. I have a laser cutter, and have used MDO, but have never tried cutting MDO. Go try it. I cut plywood and MDF -- I'm less worried about a fire than the laser cutting through the MDO given enough dwell time. But basically, this artcle seems like a "I'm clueless and scared, so let's post unsubstiated speculation to SlashDot."
BTW -- there is another open source laser cutter out there: http://labs.nortd.com/lasersaur/ I'll probably replace mine with a Lasersaur when my machine dies (it's acting poorly:(
How very true. Schools can't give extra resources for the academically talented, or people complain. Just like you can't selectivly give better coaching to kids that are great at basketball....oh wait, poor example. Just like you can't selectively give special coaching to kids that are good at acting... oh wait poor example. Just like you can't give extra coaching to kids with musical ability.... oh wait, poor example.
Yes, it's true. The *only* place where it is taboo and will raise parental complaints about special treatment is if you identify academically talented kids and give them what they need to develop their ability. Around here, schools have been browbeaten out of doing anything for the identified gifted. They used to have those programs. But because of complaints and budget cutbacks, two things happend. 1) The "gifted" program is a 1 hour per week pull-out, and 2) anybody that asks to be in it can be in it.
Nah, I'd see it. Eventually. All.info mail goes into it's own, special little spam folder. Unless spamassassin scored it 10 or higher, I'll see it eventually. I clean the folder out once a week or so. And I've never once gotten a piece of mail in there that I wanted. YMMV, but that's my data set. And it is mine. It may be an anomaly, but that doesn't mean I can't do the math.
What is stupid about looking at my own data set of tens of thousands of data points with 100% corelation? Are you trying to tell me I can't do the math? My situation may be an anomoly, and it may be different from yours. But for the mail that hits *my* domains, I have *never* gotten a legit mail from a info domain. That's my data. Its *not* attitude.
I've yet to receive any piece of e-mail from a.info domain that wasn't spam. Simply matching on.info is the most reliable filter I've found for identifying e-mail from scumbags who deserve death.
There are loads of "game cameras" sold to hunters to scout hunting locations. It's going to be hard to beat the performance and value of a game camera. Check the usual sources.
That said... I have a somewhat similar situation, a mountain property and private road that is a fire road. But we have a locked gate with 10 lock slots. Out where I am at, as long as PG&E has a lock slot so that their meter readers can get up the road (to read meters at radio towers on the mountain top), and as long as the gate is "crashable", you are good to go. The CalFire trucks are all fitted with crash bars so if they come to a gate on a fire road, and you didn't have the sense to leave it unlocked as you evacuated, they can crash the gate with their truck and lift it off the hinges. Or they use a Cat, which they usually have along anyway. In case of wildfire, the gate is sacrificial. And I can say from personal experience, when you have evacuated and are watching a YouTube feed of a firebomber drop a load of orange fire retardant on your property, you say, "Hell, yes, I'll fix the gate, crash it whenever you like." Of course, we left the gate unlocked for them so it wasn't an issue.
My point: Go check with the authorities. Maybe you *can* have a gate with certain requirements. If it is a privately maintained road, that is.
“it is now possible to build one kernel that contains support for highbank, vexpress, mvebu, socfpga, and picoxcell. More platforms will be convered over in the next few releases."
What does that mean? I'm interested in Beagle/Panda variants and Raspberry Pi. The above quote doesn't yield any keyword hits in my wetware.
Technology moves all the time. Make it easy to pull new cables/fiber/whatzits as you need it.
A few years ago, I saw a new Electrical Engineering building at a uinversity. Every office and lab backed up to a 6 foot wide access hallway that was essentially a giant, walk-in cable tray. New connectivity was a simple matter of going through the wall.
Now, I'm sure you don't have that kind of budget or space. But consider how close you can come to that. A machine shop always needs to get AC power and air around, also. Mabye there is some building layout that serves both purposes.
The question I have is how it's less expensive (in the long run) to lay a chip out by hand once instead of improving your VLSI layout software forever. NP classification notwithstanding.
It's simple math. At what volume will the chip be produced? A modern fab costs $X Billion, and you know pretty much exactly how many wafers you can run during the 3 years it is state-of-the-art. After that, add $Y Billion for a refit, or just continue to run old processes. Anyway, say a new fab at refit time would cost $Z Billion. Refitting the old fab instead costs $Y Billion. So you save $Z-$Y by doing a refit. So the original fab cost you $X-($Z-$Y). Divide by number of wafers the fab can run during its life, that is the cost per wafer. Now compute die area for hand layout versus auto layout, and adjust for imporved yield for smaller die. Divide by die per wafer. That is how much less each die costs you. Now since the die is smaller, it probably runs faster, so adjust your yield-to-frequency-spec upwards, or adjust your average selling price upwards if the speed difference is "large" (enough MHz to have marketing value). That is the value of hand layout. It isn't rocket surgury to work out a dollars-and-cents number.
Anyway, even at Intel for at least the past 20 years only highly repetive structures like datapath logic has been hand laid out. Control logic is too tedius to lay out by hand, doesn't yield much area benefit, and is where the bulk of the bug fixes end up so it's the most volatile part of the layout from stepping to stepping.
So, can hand layout have a positive return on investment? Yes, if you run enough wafers of one part to make the math work out. These days the math will only work out for higher volume parts.
The IEEE web site has annoyed me for 15 years... it is the lamest, backwardest, hardest to use, most idoidocally designed web site of any of the professional societies involved with computing. It is an embarrassment. Perhaps now the morons that are resposible will be seen for the morons that they are. Or not. I'm not holding my breath. This is the IEEE.
One of the projects I funded (and got great stuff from) is a kind of structural aluminum extrusions. Another project has injection molded plastic parts. The point of the KickStarters in both cases was to raise money to make molds. It seems like these new rules prohibit things like: "Here is 3D print of the thing that we want to injection mold." Or in the case of aluminum extrusions, then what are they supposed to show? It seems like a rendering of that is just fine.
The *real* problem is projects started by people that have no idea how to program manage a project, have no manufacturing experience, and have no shipment and fulfillment experience. They get in over their heads and crash. When I pledge to a project, I try to ascertain if the person has ability to pull it off. I really don't care if you can't yet show me the thing you want to build. I'm much more interested in things you have built/shipped in the past.
There is a big difference between building 1 or 2 of something for yourself and a friend, versus building 500 of something and then shipping it all to customers. I agree Kickstarter needs a cluelessness filter. I don't think what they propose is quite it yet.
OK, we're small. And local. But we're trying to change that. We have 200+ lessons that we are trying to document with teacher training materials and materials lists so that these lessons can be used in elementary schools everywhere. But it costs money: for video taping, transcription, documentation. Basically all the work it takes to turn a tested lesson that has been run many times into enough documentation that it can be replicated by a teacher anywhere.
Our philosophy is different from the way most science education is done. We start very young. We ban pencils and data collection. Its all about developing an intuition for the science that is happening, and developing a mind that can ask questions and explore. I call it "teaching physics through the belly button." When the kids get into high school the equations will make sense because they have an intuition for what will happen.
Unfortunately, what we do is almost never measurable in any meaningful way. That makes most grant giving agencies look at us like we are from another planet. But it does work. When my daughter was five, a typical post-class interview would be something like: "What did you do?" -- "We made some stuff." -- "What did you learn?" -- "I don't know." -- "Did you have fun?" -- "YEEESSSS!". Then a few days later we would be doing some project or another and she would say something like: "We need some popsicle sticks, string, a pulley, and some hot melt glue!!" A lot of learning was going on inside, but she wasn't able to articulate it at the time. Totally not measurable, but totally great. That's when I started contributing as a volunteer.
Slashdot Mirror
Actually, I suspect the $50 goes to pay for peripheral hardware with open source drivers. The reason so many laptops are so cheap is because much of the functionality is in closed-source driver software. Hardware that doesn't depend on a bunch of proprietary kernel code often costs a little more. Easily verified by a trip to your local computer parts emporium -- compare prices on hardware with good open source drivers versus "windows only" hardware.
So $50 for avoiding the time spend researching what hardware I need to find to get good driver support for WiFi, etc, plus in the end finding out that the well supported hardware will cost me more, yes, that $50 seems well spent to me.
Well, except that we *don't* seem to be able to keep people locked up indefinitely. The mechanics of the parole system are broken. Personally, I agree that we should not use the death penalty. Killing makes us no better than the criminal. But until you convince me that the system *can* keep these same people locked up indefinitely, the we need the death penalty as a patch on beaurocratic incompentence. I'm pretty sure enough other people agree with me to keep the death penalty in place. The solution is simple -- demonstrate a system that *can* permanently separate the extremely dangerous from society. Then we can get rid of the death penalty.
pfft. There *is* a sign. It's called an "insulator". Clue for the city kids: Nobody bothers to insulate a fence wire that isn't electrified. As to everyone worried about how bad the kids will get hurt -- it's a standard farm kid prank to wire up a fence charger to something unexpected, like say, your friend's bicycle, and then stand close enough to see the reaction, but far enough away that you have a good head start (assuming you can run while laughing your @ss off). Sure, I've been bit a few times. Good way to polish your cursing vocabulary.
Those are naive assertions. Intel's production logic processes are tuned for speed, not low power consumption. That doesn't mean that the fab chemists don't have a dozen low-power processes in their hip pocket that they have demonstrated in the development fab that could be rolled out to production fabs in a matter of a few months. Processes more suitable to going after ARM market share. As to doing a new layout -- Intel has the tools and the people to simply "make it so".
Intel fabs run at max capacity on the highest gross margin per wafer designs they have available. The numbers just don't add up today for Intel doing something other than Atom.
Yes. Somebody who gets it. Intel looks at gross margin per wafer. They know pretty much exactly how many wafers they can run through a fab in a year. They can easily calculate the gross margin per wafer for any product. For a while when I was at Intel, Intel was a huge buyer of outside fab capacity -- any project that wanted to run in Intel fab had to show that their gross margin per wafer justified being on it. Otherwise, the project was told to "go fish" -- for fab. And they did, or they shut down.
Yes you are confused. I was saying that Intel has been better off for the last 7 years for having been run by a marketing guy instead of a "sand head" (physical chemist, in Intel-ese) and would have been better off with a marketing guy running the co for 10+ years.
Yes, the situation in mobile sucks. There are a host of reasons for that, mostly inherited by Otellini. The situation would suck harder if Barrett were still in charge. Otellini played the cards in his hand well.
Sure, I see your point. But for certain artists I would like to be able to opt-in to show announcements. Or get a summary. Like, how about a personalized calendar that shows the dates for nearby shows for the list of artists I select? I get a calendar, and artists get anonymized numbers about where and how many people have added them to their calendar.
I worked at Intel for 11 years and met Otellini a couple of times. First of all, he was a great guy. But much more on point, he was a clear and level-headed thinker who asked the right questions, and role-modeled the best of Intel culture in every way. He rescued Intel from the aftermath of the train wreck that was Craig Barrett, and rebuilt the company and restored the company culture.
Also note, Otellini was the first Intel CEO who came up through marketing. That was an important transition for the company in many ways, and the company is much better off for it.
I could have predicted your reply. Pure NIMBY intolerance.
Really? Then why is it difficult to find a place that will allow discussion of firearms, and advertising for firearms? After all, those are protected by the second amendment. Seems to me the knee-jerk liberal left does a fair bit of censoring of their own. Campus speech codes are another prime example -- a product of the liberal left designed to shut out speech they don't like. Intolerance is rampant.
There are nanny-state apparatchiks of every stripe. The unfortunate fact is that too many in politics simply want to fire the current nanny and bring in a replacement nanny with a different set of rules. I'd rather dismantle the machinery of the nanny state and melt it down so that it can't be rebuilt.
Anyway, I think if you take dispassionate look at what kind of speech the OP article is complaining about having censored, you'll find it is a product of the same thinking from the liberal left that brought us "offend no one" speech codes. It's also driven by marketing -- PR and marketing people first start with an "offend on one" strategy and build from there. When a person takes offense at something, it is an indication of underlying intolerance. The root problem is the intolerance.
I'd like if the liberal left showed a little tolerance shown for my lifestyle. Like being able to build a ham radio tower on my own property without having to fight nuisance law suits about how it hurts my neighbor's view. Or legally trade legal firearm components with non-prohibited persons using the same venues where I can trade electronics.
...is ask a bunch of random slackers who have time to waste posting to Slashdot how to handle a multi-million dollar, life-changing decision.
MDO == Medium Density Overlay. Core is MDF, but there is an outer skin of "some kind of" very thin, smooth, (synthetic?), laminate. It is assembled with exterior grade glues. Major application is outdoor signage. Usually needs to be special-ordered as it isn't commonly stocked at building supply centers. Machines very nicely on a CNC router, and takes finishes very well.
So I wonder how much experience the poster has with either MDO or laser cutters. I have a laser cutter, and have used MDO, but have never tried cutting MDO. Go try it. I cut plywood and MDF -- I'm less worried about a fire than the laser cutting through the MDO given enough dwell time. But basically, this artcle seems like a "I'm clueless and scared, so let's post unsubstiated speculation to SlashDot."
BTW -- there is another open source laser cutter out there: http://labs.nortd.com/lasersaur/ I'll probably replace mine with a Lasersaur when my machine dies (it's acting poorly :(
How very true. Schools can't give extra resources for the academically talented, or people complain. Just like you can't selectivly give better coaching to kids that are great at basketball....oh wait, poor example. Just like you can't selectively give special coaching to kids that are good at acting... oh wait poor example. Just like you can't give extra coaching to kids with musical ability.... oh wait, poor example.
Yes, it's true. The *only* place where it is taboo and will raise parental complaints about special treatment is if you identify academically talented kids and give them what they need to develop their ability. Around here, schools have been browbeaten out of doing anything for the identified gifted. They used to have those programs. But because of complaints and budget cutbacks, two things happend. 1) The "gifted" program is a 1 hour per week pull-out, and 2) anybody that asks to be in it can be in it.
Nah, I'd see it. Eventually. All .info mail goes into it's own, special little spam folder. Unless spamassassin scored it 10 or higher, I'll see it eventually. I clean the folder out once a week or so. And I've never once gotten a piece of mail in there that I wanted. YMMV, but that's my data set. And it is mine. It may be an anomaly, but that doesn't mean I can't do the math.
What is stupid about looking at my own data set of tens of thousands of data points with 100% corelation? Are you trying to tell me I can't do the math? My situation may be an anomoly, and it may be different from yours. But for the mail that hits *my* domains, I have *never* gotten a legit mail from a info domain. That's my data. Its *not* attitude.
I've yet to receive any piece of e-mail from a .info domain that wasn't spam. Simply matching on .info is the most reliable filter I've found for identifying e-mail from scumbags who deserve death.
Anyone else notice this?
There are loads of "game cameras" sold to hunters to scout hunting locations. It's going to be hard to beat the performance and value of a game camera. Check the usual sources.
That said... I have a somewhat similar situation, a mountain property and private road that is a fire road. But we have a locked gate with 10 lock slots. Out where I am at, as long as PG&E has a lock slot so that their meter readers can get up the road (to read meters at radio towers on the mountain top), and as long as the gate is "crashable", you are good to go. The CalFire trucks are all fitted with crash bars so if they come to a gate on a fire road, and you didn't have the sense to leave it unlocked as you evacuated, they can crash the gate with their truck and lift it off the hinges. Or they use a Cat, which they usually have along anyway. In case of wildfire, the gate is sacrificial. And I can say from personal experience, when you have evacuated and are watching a YouTube feed of a firebomber drop a load of orange fire retardant on your property, you say, "Hell, yes, I'll fix the gate, crash it whenever you like." Of course, we left the gate unlocked for them so it wasn't an issue.
My point: Go check with the authorities. Maybe you *can* have a gate with certain requirements. If it is a privately maintained road, that is.
“it is now possible to build one kernel that contains support for highbank, vexpress, mvebu, socfpga, and picoxcell. More platforms will be convered over in the next few releases."
What does that mean? I'm interested in Beagle/Panda variants and Raspberry Pi. The above quote doesn't yield any keyword hits in my wetware.
Technology moves all the time. Make it easy to pull new cables/fiber/whatzits as you need it.
A few years ago, I saw a new Electrical Engineering building at a uinversity. Every office and lab backed up to a 6 foot wide access hallway that was essentially a giant, walk-in cable tray. New connectivity was a simple matter of going through the wall.
Now, I'm sure you don't have that kind of budget or space. But consider how close you can come to that. A machine shop always needs to get AC power and air around, also. Mabye there is some building layout that serves both purposes.
The question I have is how it's less expensive (in the long run) to lay a chip out by hand once instead of improving your VLSI layout software forever. NP classification notwithstanding.
It's simple math. At what volume will the chip be produced? A modern fab costs $X Billion, and you know pretty much exactly how many wafers you can run during the 3 years it is state-of-the-art. After that, add $Y Billion for a refit, or just continue to run old processes. Anyway, say a new fab at refit time would cost $Z Billion. Refitting the old fab instead costs $Y Billion. So you save $Z-$Y by doing a refit. So the original fab cost you $X-($Z-$Y). Divide by number of wafers the fab can run during its life, that is the cost per wafer. Now compute die area for hand layout versus auto layout, and adjust for imporved yield for smaller die. Divide by die per wafer. That is how much less each die costs you. Now since the die is smaller, it probably runs faster, so adjust your yield-to-frequency-spec upwards, or adjust your average selling price upwards if the speed difference is "large" (enough MHz to have marketing value). That is the value of hand layout. It isn't rocket surgury to work out a dollars-and-cents number.
Anyway, even at Intel for at least the past 20 years only highly repetive structures like datapath logic has been hand laid out. Control logic is too tedius to lay out by hand, doesn't yield much area benefit, and is where the bulk of the bug fixes end up so it's the most volatile part of the layout from stepping to stepping.
So, can hand layout have a positive return on investment? Yes, if you run enough wafers of one part to make the math work out. These days the math will only work out for higher volume parts.
(Yes, I'm ex-Intel).
The IEEE web site has annoyed me for 15 years... it is the lamest, backwardest, hardest to use, most idoidocally designed web site of any of the professional societies involved with computing. It is an embarrassment. Perhaps now the morons that are resposible will be seen for the morons that they are. Or not. I'm not holding my breath. This is the IEEE.
One of the projects I funded (and got great stuff from) is a kind of structural aluminum extrusions. Another project has injection molded plastic parts. The point of the KickStarters in both cases was to raise money to make molds. It seems like these new rules prohibit things like: "Here is 3D print of the thing that we want to injection mold." Or in the case of aluminum extrusions, then what are they supposed to show? It seems like a rendering of that is just fine.
The *real* problem is projects started by people that have no idea how to program manage a project, have no manufacturing experience, and have no shipment and fulfillment experience. They get in over their heads and crash. When I pledge to a project, I try to ascertain if the person has ability to pull it off. I really don't care if you can't yet show me the thing you want to build. I'm much more interested in things you have built/shipped in the past.
There is a big difference between building 1 or 2 of something for yourself and a friend, versus building 500 of something and then shipping it all to customers. I agree Kickstarter needs a cluelessness filter. I don't think what they propose is quite it yet.
http://www.rockitscience.com/
Watch the videos.
OK, we're small. And local. But we're trying to change that. We have 200+ lessons that we are trying to document with teacher training materials and materials lists so that these lessons can be used in elementary schools everywhere. But it costs money: for video taping, transcription, documentation. Basically all the work it takes to turn a tested lesson that has been run many times into enough documentation that it can be replicated by a teacher anywhere.
Our philosophy is different from the way most science education is done. We start very young. We ban pencils and data collection. Its all about developing an intuition for the science that is happening, and developing a mind that can ask questions and explore. I call it "teaching physics through the belly button." When the kids get into high school the equations will make sense because they have an intuition for what will happen.
Unfortunately, what we do is almost never measurable in any meaningful way. That makes most grant giving agencies look at us like we are from another planet. But it does work. When my daughter was five, a typical post-class interview would be something like: "What did you do?" -- "We made some stuff." -- "What did you learn?" -- "I don't know." -- "Did you have fun?" -- "YEEESSSS!". Then a few days later we would be doing some project or another and she would say something like: "We need some popsicle sticks, string, a pulley, and some hot melt glue!!" A lot of learning was going on inside, but she wasn't able to articulate it at the time. Totally not measurable, but totally great. That's when I started contributing as a volunteer.
We need money :) Did I mention that?
Any topologist can tell you that a cup and a donut are equivalent.