Windows doesn't do any of this by the way. There is no relevant Office caching going on. Mind that, whatever the zealots will tell you. IE is partially loaded at startup because it is part of the OS. That's it.
What you might consider is that StarOffice had a designflaw wich still is part of OpenOffice.org at the time but will be fixed at 2.0 (i think). It loads not only the Writer, it loads the whole officesuite. Imagine Word, Excel, Powerpoint, etc. starting altogether. That is why OO.org is such a beast to launch.
As you put more work into a reply than I got ever before on slashdot I will respond. You have a valid point that those older systems are sometimes put to use. I agree with you that there should be a way to run them with Linux, and run them safely. This is not the same as continue using Windows98 and connect to the internet wich is frankly not a very smart thing to do.
I think that's what older or specialized distros, Fluxbox and remote Xservers are for. But NOT the Gnome Desktop in it's latest incarnation.
My quote "We have them already" was driven by my experience that I keep installing Linux on older machines all over the place. Friends want to try it on their obsolete hardware but that means that they won't get the full performance and often turn it down in favour of their shiny, new XP box. Still, dualboxes sometimes show the behaviour you described. Even OpenOffice or Firefox seem to run faster on Windows. I don't think that this is Gnomes mistake, though. The examples were given by the grandparent and clearly show the library issue as it was pointed out.
Gnome itself is not bloatware, it is just a complete, cutting-edge desktop with a lot of bells and whistles and this comes at a cost. Most of the time it is just a RAM issue that can be solved easily without a big investment. This is all I was trying to make clear. I am just tired of this: "Gnome is bloated because it doesn't run on a 128MB machine." talk. It is simply not what it was designed for. Same with Doom3.;-)
"I mean, I can run Office, IE and Outlook together SMOOTHLY on a WinXP box with 128M RAM."
No, you cant. Stop spreading FUD. If you have a slow CPU it might be usable if you have at least 256MB, but SMOOTHLY is something entirely different.
"Try running OpenOffice.org, Firefox, Evolution and GNOME on the same system - it slows to a crawl. There are LOADS of people with 64 and 128M boxes out there who can't run a modern, desktop Linux effectively because it's getting so large and sluggish, and there are endless posts around the Net from newcomers who're puzzled as to why Linux is 'so slow'."
You are right. But you wouldnt be able to use WinXP on the same machine either. I just pointed this out. Whats more: Gnome 2.8 and KDE 3 is about the latest and greatest as it gets on Linux. Please consider this. It is not a slick environment. It is a complete up-to-date Desktop environment up on par with OS X and WinXP (SP2). If you try a few offroad distros you might still get a performance boost. Gentoo and Slackware ARE in fact significantly faster than SusE or Fedora.
I agree, OpenOffices startup time could be faster but on a decent system (eg. an Athlon 1400 with 512MB and a 7200rpm HD) it takes about 12 seconds for startup. I cant even guess what you mean with Firefox slowing to a crawl though.
"Fewer users will switch if they just have to follow the upgrade treadmill." Agreed. But its a trap: Look, if we dont have the latest and greatest they wont even consider it. Dont underestimate the amount of GNOME ready desktops out there. We really shouldnt try to strip down on features and looks just to get all those crappy 128MB/p200Mhz boxes. We have them already. Noone uses them for real work though. What we want is their main machine. The multimedia/websurfing/office PC. We cant get that with Fluxbox (no pun, i like it) and lynx.
Ok, to answer your question, no I haven't seen this work either. The USB-Mass storage devices are fully supported with Linux as well. Just plug them into a recent system and they are ready to go. The problem is the user never gets any feedback on the gui. You have to dmesg and look what scsi-id the device got and then you have to mount it. Not exactly elegant. The reason why OS X has it so much easier is trivial: There is only very limited hardware for the Apple platform.
I don't think that havin a driver loaded of the web is the hard part for a newbie though. They have done it before and it might be their natural reflex to type into google:
"soundblaster linux driver"
The problem is it will fail most probably, because the kernelversion doesn't match, or the diver is old and useless, the tutorial works for RedHat only, etc. A HAL would be great because applications could tell the user "Hey, I found a new device, I have no driver for it. Do you want to install it? Point me to the file!"
A distributor could use this to make drivers painless to install and SuSE is trying to do this already. I am curious how this will shape up...
Amen. I was about to say the same thing. If I feel like under constant suspicion I tend to be illoyal. That's just the same with people living in a totalitarian regime. It is much better to trust the employees and make sure they are properly payed. If they are really loyal they will be much more productive. It is one of the first lessons we learned from industrialisation.
That's why Microsoft itself works hard to create such a good work environment (I have some friends who work for Microsoft in germany and they are really very happy and loyal to their firm).
But the feature itself is not evil. It is pretty handy for sysadmins who can close another security gap. You can do the same with Unix so why is it a bad thing if Windows offers the ability to do so?
He is a great project leader and always dedicated with an open ear to the Dropline Community. He did such a great job in building Dropline-Gnome and serves the whole Slackware Community with the great and active forums, and he is still in his early 20s.
Actually I believe that even if a deveolper or maintainer isn't famous in the sense that his name is known throughout the whole OSS-Community there is still the close community around his project and they know very well if the person is a "hero" or an asshole. In the case of the swaret project this seems to have backfired on the developers, despite having a good "product".
Hmm. Sounds interesting, and I bet it will be done sooner or later. But I think that after eight hours of work this could make me kinda sick. You know with all those shadows constantly moving when I move the cursor.
Wouldn't it be nicer to link the lightsource to the systemclock and have it move like the sun over the desktop? So you could tell what time it is by the length and direction of the shadows. It would have to move backwards at nighttime of course or you would have a black desktop at night...;-)
Yup. Confirm this. I put Slackware 10 and Dropline-Gnome on my moms desktop and she is happy with it. The box is significantly faster than what your neighbour uses and therefore OpenOffice.org and Evolution were an option. She said she adores the XScreensavers. Since she has my trusty old GeForce3 I can understand her.
No, really, she is very impressed with Linux. She also likes the absence of advertising in GAIM (compared to ICQ) and Totem (compared to WMP). Of course Firefox is a cutie of a browser. After I told her about the OSS-Philosophy she also had the feeling to do "the right thing"(tm). I guess she would have fallen in love with RMS back in the 60s. No, wait. Then I would be his son...holy cra*!;-)))
Of course eyecandy matters. If you are like me you spend more time looking at that world inside that box on your desk than you look at your kids, your soulmate or a piece of art. If this HAS to be all I see all day, it better pleases my eye...
Slashdot Mirror
Windows doesn't do any of this by the way. There is no relevant Office caching going on. Mind that, whatever the zealots will tell you. IE is partially loaded at startup because it is part of the OS. That's it.
What you might consider is that StarOffice had a designflaw wich still is part of OpenOffice.org at the time but will be fixed at 2.0 (i think). It loads not only the Writer, it loads the whole officesuite. Imagine Word, Excel, Powerpoint, etc. starting altogether. That is why OO.org is such a beast to launch.
As you put more work into a reply than I got ever before on slashdot I will respond. You have a valid point that those older systems are sometimes put to use. I agree with you that there should be a way to run them with Linux, and run them safely. This is not the same as continue using Windows98 and connect to the internet wich is frankly not a very smart thing to do.
;-)
I think that's what older or specialized distros, Fluxbox and remote Xservers are for. But NOT the Gnome Desktop in it's latest incarnation.
My quote "We have them already" was driven by my experience that I keep installing Linux on older machines all over the place. Friends want to try it on their obsolete hardware but that means that they won't get the full performance and often turn it down in favour of their shiny, new XP box. Still, dualboxes sometimes show the behaviour you described. Even OpenOffice or Firefox seem to run faster on Windows. I don't think that this is Gnomes mistake, though. The examples were given by the grandparent and clearly show the library issue as it was pointed out.
Gnome itself is not bloatware, it is just a complete, cutting-edge desktop with a lot of bells and whistles and this comes at a cost. Most of the time it is just a RAM issue that can be solved easily without a big investment. This is all I was trying to make clear. I am just tired of this: "Gnome is bloated because it doesn't run on a 128MB machine." talk. It is simply not what it was designed for. Same with Doom3.
The future IS now. ;-)
PS: Will we get a new Gnome Icon when 3.0 ships please? I gave up on the 2.x series...
"I mean, I can run Office, IE and Outlook together SMOOTHLY on a WinXP box with 128M RAM."
No, you cant. Stop spreading FUD. If you have a slow CPU it might be usable if you have at least 256MB, but SMOOTHLY is something entirely different.
"Try running OpenOffice.org, Firefox, Evolution and GNOME on the same system - it slows to a crawl. There are LOADS of people with 64 and 128M boxes out there who can't run a modern, desktop Linux effectively because it's getting so large and sluggish, and there are endless posts around the Net from newcomers who're puzzled as to why Linux is 'so slow'."
You are right. But you wouldnt be able to use WinXP on the same machine either. I just pointed this out. Whats more: Gnome 2.8 and KDE 3 is about the latest and greatest as it gets on Linux. Please consider this. It is not a slick environment. It is a complete up-to-date Desktop environment up on par with OS X and WinXP (SP2). If you try a few offroad distros you might still get a performance boost. Gentoo and Slackware ARE in fact significantly faster than SusE or Fedora.
I agree, OpenOffices startup time could be faster but on a decent system (eg. an Athlon 1400 with 512MB and a 7200rpm HD) it takes about 12 seconds for startup. I cant even guess what you mean with Firefox slowing to a crawl though.
"Fewer users will switch if they just have to follow the upgrade treadmill."
Agreed. But its a trap: Look, if we dont have the latest and greatest they wont even consider it. Dont underestimate the amount of GNOME ready desktops out there. We really shouldnt try to strip down on features and looks just to get all those crappy 128MB/p200Mhz boxes. We have them already. Noone uses them for real work though. What we want is their main machine. The multimedia/websurfing/office PC. We cant get that with Fluxbox (no pun, i like it) and lynx.
Hey, IE was at 4.0 before it was barely useful. ;-)
I did it for security reasons. They both like it, and I've had no "site blah won't work now" problems.
;-/
I never get to meet them now, though.
Sorry, but compared to the view from my basementroom I'd take San Fran anytime...
Ok, to answer your question, no I haven't seen this work either. The USB-Mass storage devices are fully supported with Linux as well. Just plug them into a recent system and they are ready to go. The problem is the user never gets any feedback on the gui. You have to dmesg and look what scsi-id the device got and then you have to mount it. Not exactly elegant. The reason why OS X has it so much easier is trivial: There is only very limited hardware for the Apple platform.
I don't think that havin a driver loaded of the web is the hard part for a newbie though. They have done it before and it might be their natural reflex to type into google:
"soundblaster linux driver"
The problem is it will fail most probably, because the kernelversion doesn't match, or the diver is old and useless, the tutorial works for RedHat only, etc. A HAL would be great because applications could tell the user "Hey, I found a new device, I have no driver for it. Do you want to install it? Point me to the file!"
A distributor could use this to make drivers painless to install and SuSE is trying to do this already. I am curious how this will shape up...
Sorry, I'm german. One mistake I won't make anyone. ;-)
Brought it back to the store where you BOUGHT it? ;-)
"To be blunt, why does this matter?"
Err, because it might be sitting in my livingroom?
Errr, have you looked up the zombie auction and did you detect any familiar sounding subnets? ;-)
Amen. I was about to say the same thing. If I feel like under constant suspicion I tend to be illoyal. That's just the same with people living in a totalitarian regime. It is much better to trust the employees and make sure they are properly payed. If they are really loyal they will be much more productive. It is one of the first lessons we learned from industrialisation.
That's why Microsoft itself works hard to create such a good work environment (I have some friends who work for Microsoft in germany and they are really very happy and loyal to their firm).
But the feature itself is not evil. It is pretty handy for sysadmins who can close another security gap. You can do the same with Unix so why is it a bad thing if Windows offers the ability to do so?
...and taken, it appears. ;-)
I find it disturbing that the official picture of the crater is worse than what we get from mars.
Actually this looks like the pictures of the rebel alliance hideout the empire got from the Hoth probe.
He is a great project leader and always dedicated with an open ear to the Dropline Community. He did such a great job in building Dropline-Gnome and serves the whole Slackware Community with the great and active forums, and he is still in his early 20s.
Actually I believe that even if a deveolper or maintainer isn't famous in the sense that his name is known throughout the whole OSS-Community there is still the close community around his project and they know very well if the person is a "hero" or an asshole. In the case of the swaret project this seems to have backfired on the developers, despite having a good "product".
Not impressed. Got your copy of Duke Nukem Forever already?
Ok, sorry. I thought you were replying to my post.
I absolutely agree with you on the annoyance of the lightsource cursor.
It hasn't pissed me off after 27years of using it on a daily basis in RL.
Hmm. Sounds interesting, and I bet it will be done sooner or later. But I think that after eight hours of work this could make me kinda sick. You know with all those shadows constantly moving when I move the cursor.
;-)
Wouldn't it be nicer to link the lightsource to the systemclock and have it move like the sun over the desktop? So you could tell what time it is by the length and direction of the shadows. It would have to move backwards at nighttime of course or you would have a black desktop at night...
Yup. Confirm this. I put Slackware 10 and Dropline-Gnome on my moms desktop and she is happy with it. The box is significantly faster than what your neighbour uses and therefore OpenOffice.org and Evolution were an option. She said she adores the XScreensavers. Since she has my trusty old GeForce3 I can understand her.
;-)))
No, really, she is very impressed with Linux. She also likes the absence of advertising in GAIM (compared to ICQ) and Totem (compared to WMP). Of course Firefox is a cutie of a browser. After I told her about the OSS-Philosophy she also had the feeling to do "the right thing"(tm). I guess she would have fallen in love with RMS back in the 60s. No, wait. Then I would be his son...holy cra*!
Of course eyecandy matters. If you are like me you spend more time looking at that world inside that box on your desk than you look at your kids, your soulmate or a piece of art. If this HAS to be all I see all day, it better pleases my eye...
Actually I did that too until Firefox came around. I have to use a Windows machine at work, and, err, this was my main slashdot-box. ;-)
the stats of this site will continue to grow in favour of Mozilla.
42.