A number of people on kde-devel@ made exactly this argument -- calling it 4.0 would mislead people into thinking it was ready for end users when it's not.
It's not enough to say "Yay, KDE 4.0!", and then follow up with "oh, by the way, this is a technology preview/developer release".
Go read the KDE 4.0 Press Release. There is not one mention of the fact that 4.0 is intended for anything but the general user population. Saying it's "the beginning of the KDE4 era" implies nothing about the quality of the 4.0 release; it only indicates there are more features in the pipeline.
If KDE wanted to send a clear message that 4.0 was not ready for anyone but early-adopters, the press release was the definitive place to do it. But they didn't, and all this angst is the result.
PR mistakes aside, I still think that KDE is, and has been, a great desktop. I've been using trunk as my main desktop for several weeks now, and now that 4.1 has been branched, I'm really looking forward to what 4.2 has to offer.
Yes, I agree with you, it's extremely bad taste to bring up that sort of crap in front of the rest of the class, and it's pretty strong evidence they're just being a troublemaker.
As for "you work for me...", I'd say it depends on the context. It could be a poorly-formed, but genuine expression of frustration as much as anything else.
Then I guess I've been pretty lucky in my educational experience -- I went to a high school where I actually learned how to learn, and most of my peers in college are here because they actually want to be here, and feel that on the whole they're getting something positive out of the experience (annoying as it may be at times).
All of that notwithstanding, I feel that as a professor, you still owe your students that respect. You owe it to them not to assume that they're just being irresponsible whiners and troublemakers. You owe them a fair opportunity to express their concerns with your teaching style. Maybe most of them are troublemakers, but by making that assumption straight off, you are holding back the ones that aren't.
Bahahah... so wait... why are we (students, their parents, and taxpayers) paying you a salary? Where do you think that money comes from, anyway?
If I'm paying 40K for an education, I damn well expect to get my money's worth. I have even *less* inclination to tolerate jackass professors pulling their "the classroom is my little fiefdom" shit.
I look at it this way -- both the professor and student have their respective responsibilities. The student has a responsibility to engage with the professor and put a fair amount of honest effort toward learning what the professor is trying to teach. The professor, on the other hand, is responsible for teaching the student the class material. (duh.)
If something internal to the class is interfering with the student's learning process, the student has a responsibility to bring it to the attention of the professor during office hours. It is then *THE PROFESSOR'S RESPONSIBILITY* to work with the student to find a solution.
In my case, I would probably say something like, "Your rule against laptops is making it impossible for me to take effective notes. My hand cramps very easily from writing, so after about 10 minutes my notes are reduced to the occasional chicken-scratch, at which point most of the lecture is lost to me.". The discussion, and a mutually-acceptable solution (not necessarily involving laptops) would proceed from there.
Yes, occasionally you run into jackass students. But if a student is in college, chances are (a) they want to be there, and (b) they already have a reasonable idea of what they need to do to learn (laziness notwithstanding). So, rather than assuming by default that a given student is a self-centered pain in the ass, you're better off spending a few minutes exploring their problem and trying to come up with a solution that accomodates their needs without throwing everybody else off.
At least in my personal experience, the contrast between the professors that understand this and those that don't is very noticeable. I've had classes with those that don't, and more often than not, those classes were a waste of my (and their) time. Sure, I got a passing grade, but I never *learned* anything other than how to take that professor's tests.
Where would Adobe, Veritas, heck even Electronic Arts be without MS?
They'd be running on the Mac. What's more, Apple would have not only a big marketshare of the software, but they'd have the hardware, too. And everything would Just Work(tm), for that very reason. At least, until Apple started screwing with its APIs the way M$ has been...
Sure the OS is buggy, and fixes aren't released lightning fast... But who can say that without Windows, these company would be just as successful today?
All of them, and for the most part, they'd be right. The only reason anyone needs Windows now is because it's what everybody is using. Had Apple done any number of things differently, all the Windows users could very easily be Mac users, and Microsoft would just be a bad dream.
If you think about it, the only reason people "need" Windows now as a platform is because that's what they have been using all along. Windows didn't come along "by default", it was actively adopted back in the day by people who didn't want to pay the price for Mac hardware, or deal with their chicken-simple UI.
...is also great for (free) long distance for cell phones. And last I checked, they had unlimited night (after 9 PM) and weekend minutes. This might have changed since I got my phone, though.
I use both KDevelop and the command-line tools. I recently switched to KDevelop, and while I find it very convenient and easy to use, I still find myself going back to the command line for some things. KDevelop is easier to use than Emacs, but it isn't as powerful for me as the command-line.
I really like the fact that they added a konsole feature in 2.0...I use that a lot now. I just wish I could do file management in KDevelop too.
Of course, no one ever bothers asking us for our perspective...
Sorry, Jon, but you really don't know enough to write an article. How do I know this? Well, I'm 17 now. I'm probably somewhat unusual in that I actually have meaningful conversations with my parents (or my Dad, at least, who is also a computer geek) on a regular basis. Conversations that last 2-3 hours about growing up and about how your perspective can change on life are not uncommon in my house.
I know I don't understand what it's like to be "grown-up", and the reason I know that is because of these conversations. Do I "get" everything and do I understand the "real world"? Certainly not. Does anybody? I don't think so. For each person, the "real world" is a bit different. Right now, I have a view of the world which is focused around the things which are important in my life (hacking on code, college, leaving home,...). In a few years, the things that are important will change, and so will my world view. My job will become important, and I won't have to worry about college. After that, I'll probably raise a family and have kids--again, my world view will change.
My question for the/. community is this; is it really wrong that we teenagers are the way we are? It is unarguably wrong to DDOS some company's server, crack an ISP or spread an Outlook virus, but is it really wrong at this point in our lives to be wrapped up in the computer and in the things which we find to be important right now? I don't think so, as long as we recognize that this is just one part of our lives, and as long as we are willing to move onto the next with our minds open and ready for whatever comes.
I am a Senior at Monte Vista High School in Danville, CA. I suppose you could say I am also a member of the "downtrodden" community; I'm a "nerd", a guy who spends all his time messing with Linux and Perl and doesn't have a real life. I, too, think the schools' culture is far too restrictive and conformist. While the teachers at my school are a positive influence (all my teachers know of my computer skills and are grateful for the time I spend helping them), the students are, shall I say, less than supportive.
I feel many times as if the skills I bring and the work I do for the school is under-appreciated by the students; I'm just "the smart kid who knows about computers". Students who know how to program computers are told they "need to get a life", they need to actually do something meaningful, they need to "have some fun once in a while", and of course, they need to "get out" more often. What most people don't understand is, I choose programming over "going out" and "getting a life"!
Schools need to understand that things like dumping the homecoming crown are just fine. I think the district's action was way off base, and I hope they realize what a stupid mistake they've made. What every school needs to remember is that there are some of us who just don't fit the mold, and won't function well within the canonical system. As long as they remember that students are people too (yes, with feelings, thoughts and opinions), we'll get along just fine.
Agreed! It's art...I find myself thinking of it that way all the time. I don't know why...but I just see something beautiful (or maybe elegant?) about lines of code flowing across my screen in multicolored Emacs font-mode. Programmers are artists...many people including me have probably found themselves coding something utterly useless for no apparent reason...just because it's art!
We do it because we love it...I do it naturally; I do it randomly (on the blackboards, in my head, on a piece of paper) almost daily in that mindless institution known as school. There's nothing to think about, I'm bored, so I code.
I have a great background that says, "Codito, ergo sum. I code, therefore I am." I think this embodies what we do and the whole reason for things like GNU and the GPL in the first place. We don't do it because we're paid to do it, we do it because we love it. And then, when we're done, we share our creations with the world--we don't care whether we get paid, we just want to code.
What are my goals? I don't know...I just want to code. See you all later...I'm gonna go hack on Perl!
A manager was about to be fired, but a programmer who worked for him invented a new program that became popular and sold well. As a result, the manager retained his job.
The manager tried to give the programmer a bonus, but the programmer refused it, saying, "I wrote the program because I though it was an interesting concept, and thus I expect no reward."
The manager, upon hearing this, remarked, "This programmer, though he holds a position of small esteem, understands well the proper duty of an employee. Lets promote him to the exalted position of management consultant!"
But when told this, the programmer once more refused, saying, "I exist so that I can program. If I were promoted, I would do nothing but waste everyone's time. Can I go now? I have a program that I'm working on."
I think this sort of thing is a good idea in the long run...not because of the gender or sex issue so much as the fact that we're now getting another whole segment of population online that before, for whatever reason, wasn't as interested in going on the net.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm glad men and women are finally coming onto a more level playing field; namely, the Internet. Regardless of what you call them, female geeks are welcome out here--I would like to think that at least the geeks aren't sexist on the net.
Let's say for the sake of argument that I contribute to a project. Maybe it's a bug diff or an extra feature; it doesn't matter. According to this system, that means I will get a certain number of "shares" in this project. When this project makes money, I make money.
What I would like to know is, where does the money come from? If this project is Open Source, then it is, by definition, free. Who is going to pay me money for a piece of software they can get free?
I'm not quite sure I understand this system, and how it is supposed to benefit developers and users.
Probably, but keep in mind that a musician may have to play parts of their piece, or even the whole thing, just to see how it sounds. Debugging a program is similar to this in that the programmer has to run the code as part of the debugging process, just to see how it works. If this analogy is viable and true, we now have a workable method for running these "illegal" programs.
He isn't dictating how the world should be. He is telling how the world is. We would all like to have computers that don't crash and plenty of money to go around without having to worry about earning it every day.
Unfortunately, this isn't the case. He was NOT telling us to go switch operating systems, he was telling us that if Linux is going to gain widespread acceptance within BOTH the server and the desktop arenas, then we need to make changes.
In this case, I happen to agree with him. Linux doesn't exist in a vacuum; we can't ignore the fact that people (besides us hackers) are actually using this OS. We certainly aren't obligated to suit their whims, but if we want Linux to gain widespread use, it would certainly behoove us to do so at least part of the time.
Microsoft is just trying to BS their way into the Internet market, and in my opinion it isn't working. We've been running NT servers and workstations where I work for a long time, and have had ENORMOUS problems. The only reason we still have it is because my teacher (I work in a school as a sysadmin) is afraid to get rid of it after "all the work we've put in" on it. Our linux box has been up for 72 days straight w/out a problem (and it has EVERYTHING running on it), and one of our Sun workstations has been up even longer. Besides, you've never heard of a supercomputer running Windows, have you? That's an oxymoron--a contradiction in terms. Windows is far to slow and unscalable to use in the kind of applications where Sun is best. Microsoft doesn't even have anything that could even compete with Sun...they're in totally separate arenas, I don't care how many Microsoft techs throw around phrases such as "scalability" and "robust architecture"...they're just trying to BS their way onto the net, that's all. To everyone using NT as an HTTP server: What were you thinking? So what if it runs SQL? Try mysql on Apache...I have a feeling you will be SO much happier! -- CondorDes
I live in the SF Bay Area...Contra Costa and Alameda counties are seriously considering doing something like this. Yes, there are security issues, but I think they can be resolved pretty easily...I have been doing some web security work and I think it could be done.
Slashdot Mirror
They didn't know, but should have known.
A number of people on kde-devel@ made exactly this argument -- calling it 4.0 would mislead people into thinking it was ready for end users when it's not.
It's not enough to say "Yay, KDE 4.0!", and then follow up with "oh, by the way, this is a technology preview/developer release".
Go read the KDE 4.0 Press Release. There is not one mention of the fact that 4.0 is intended for anything but the general user population. Saying it's "the beginning of the KDE4 era" implies nothing about the quality of the 4.0 release; it only indicates there are more features in the pipeline.
If KDE wanted to send a clear message that 4.0 was not ready for anyone but early-adopters, the press release was the definitive place to do it. But they didn't, and all this angst is the result.
PR mistakes aside, I still think that KDE is, and has been, a great desktop. I've been using trunk as my main desktop for several weeks now, and now that 4.1 has been branched, I'm really looking forward to what 4.2 has to offer.
So wait... does that mean the Wii will run OS/2?
> If you let the students run the class, no one will learn anything, they will want a quick 'A' and be done.
I just want to make this clear -- Nowhere in my comment did I advocate or condone students' "taking control" of or "running" a class.
ahhhh, I see. I missed the "in public" qualifier.
...", I'd say it depends on the context. It could be a poorly-formed, but genuine expression of frustration as much as anything else.
Yes, I agree with you, it's extremely bad taste to bring up that sort of crap in front of the rest of the class, and it's pretty strong evidence they're just being a troublemaker.
As for "you work for me
Then I guess I've been pretty lucky in my educational experience -- I went to a high school where I actually learned how to learn, and most of my peers in college are here because they actually want to be here, and feel that on the whole they're getting something positive out of the experience (annoying as it may be at times).
All of that notwithstanding, I feel that as a professor, you still owe your students that respect. You owe it to them not to assume that they're just being irresponsible whiners and troublemakers. You owe them a fair opportunity to express their concerns with your teaching style. Maybe most of them are troublemakers, but by making that assumption straight off, you are holding back the ones that aren't.
Bahahah... so wait ... why are we (students, their parents, and taxpayers) paying you a salary? Where do you think that money comes from, anyway?
If I'm paying 40K for an education, I damn well expect to get my money's worth. I have even *less* inclination to tolerate jackass professors pulling their "the classroom is my little fiefdom" shit.
I look at it this way -- both the professor and student have their respective responsibilities. The student has a responsibility to engage with the professor and put a fair amount of honest effort toward learning what the professor is trying to teach. The professor, on the other hand, is responsible for teaching the student the class material. (duh.)
If something internal to the class is interfering with the student's learning process, the student has a responsibility to bring it to the attention of the professor during office hours. It is then *THE PROFESSOR'S RESPONSIBILITY* to work with the student to find a solution.
In my case, I would probably say something like, "Your rule against laptops is making it impossible for me to take effective notes. My hand cramps very easily from writing, so after about 10 minutes my notes are reduced to the occasional chicken-scratch, at which point most of the lecture is lost to me.". The discussion, and a mutually-acceptable solution (not necessarily involving laptops) would proceed from there.
Yes, occasionally you run into jackass students. But if a student is in college, chances are (a) they want to be there, and (b) they already have a reasonable idea of what they need to do to learn (laziness notwithstanding). So, rather than assuming by default that a given student is a self-centered pain in the ass, you're better off spending a few minutes exploring their problem and trying to come up with a solution that accomodates their needs without throwing everybody else off.
At least in my personal experience, the contrast between the professors that understand this and those that don't is very noticeable. I've had classes with those that don't, and more often than not, those classes were a waste of my (and their) time. Sure, I got a passing grade, but I never *learned* anything other than how to take that professor's tests.
Ever whipped out a calculator when trying to pay a tab at a restaurant?
Yes. It's called my cellphone.
I thought my subconciousness was leaking...
It probably was. Did you remember to delete your dreams when you were done with them?
iptables -I INPUT -s 207.218.192.0/18 -j REJECT --reject-with icmp-host-prohibited
'Nuff said.
Bah! Who needs arrow keys when you have vi? ;)
You forgot to mention, this only happens with 16 MB RAM.
Where would Adobe, Veritas, heck even Electronic Arts be without MS?
They'd be running on the Mac. What's more, Apple would have not only a big marketshare of the software, but they'd have the hardware, too. And everything would Just Work(tm), for that very reason. At least, until Apple started screwing with its APIs the way M$ has been...
Sure the OS is buggy, and fixes aren't released lightning fast... But who can say that without Windows, these company would be just as successful today?
All of them, and for the most part, they'd be right. The only reason anyone needs Windows now is because it's what everybody is using. Had Apple done any number of things differently, all the Windows users could very easily be Mac users, and Microsoft would just be a bad dream.
If you think about it, the only reason people "need" Windows now as a platform is because that's what they have been using all along. Windows didn't come along "by default", it was actively adopted back in the day by people who didn't want to pay the price for Mac hardware, or deal with their chicken-simple UI.
...is also great for (free) long distance for cell phones. And last I checked, they had unlimited night (after 9 PM) and weekend minutes. This might have changed since I got my phone, though.
I use both KDevelop and the command-line tools. I recently switched to KDevelop, and while I find it very convenient and easy to use, I still find myself going back to the command line for some things. KDevelop is easier to use than Emacs, but it isn't as powerful for me as the command-line.
I really like the fact that they added a konsole feature in 2.0...I use that a lot now. I just wish I could do file management in KDevelop too.
Of course, no one ever bothers asking us for our perspective...
Sorry, Jon, but you really don't know enough to write an article. How do I know this? Well, I'm 17 now. I'm probably somewhat unusual in that I actually have meaningful conversations with my parents (or my Dad, at least, who is also a computer geek) on a regular basis. Conversations that last 2-3 hours about growing up and about how your perspective can change on life are not uncommon in my house.
I know I don't understand what it's like to be "grown-up", and the reason I know that is because of these conversations. Do I "get" everything and do I understand the "real world"? Certainly not. Does anybody? I don't think so. For each person, the "real world" is a bit different. Right now, I have a view of the world which is focused around the things which are important in my life (hacking on code, college, leaving home, ...). In a few years, the things that are important will change, and so will my world view. My job will become important, and I won't have to worry about college. After that, I'll probably raise a family and have kids--again, my world view will change.
My question for the /. community is this; is it really wrong that we teenagers are the way we are? It is unarguably wrong to DDOS some company's server, crack an ISP or spread an Outlook virus, but is it really wrong at this point in our lives to be wrapped up in the computer and in the things which we find to be important right now? I don't think so, as long as we recognize that this is just one part of our lives, and as long as we are willing to move onto the next with our minds open and ready for whatever comes.
Version inflation?
Emacs 20.7. Say no more.
I am a Senior at Monte Vista High School in Danville, CA. I suppose you could say I am also a member of the "downtrodden" community; I'm a "nerd", a guy who spends all his time messing with Linux and Perl and doesn't have a real life. I, too, think the schools' culture is far too restrictive and conformist. While the teachers at my school are a positive influence (all my teachers know of my computer skills and are grateful for the time I spend helping them), the students are, shall I say, less than supportive.
I feel many times as if the skills I bring and the work I do for the school is under-appreciated by the students; I'm just "the smart kid who knows about computers". Students who know how to program computers are told they "need to get a life", they need to actually do something meaningful, they need to "have some fun once in a while", and of course, they need to "get out" more often. What most people don't understand is, I choose programming over "going out" and "getting a life"!
Schools need to understand that things like dumping the homecoming crown are just fine. I think the district's action was way off base, and I hope they realize what a stupid mistake they've made. What every school needs to remember is that there are some of us who just don't fit the mold, and won't function well within the canonical system. As long as they remember that students are people too (yes, with feelings, thoughts and opinions), we'll get along just fine.
-- Josh
Agreed! It's art...I find myself thinking of it that way all the time. I don't know why...but I just see something beautiful (or maybe elegant?) about lines of code flowing across my screen in multicolored Emacs font-mode. Programmers are artists...many people including me have probably found themselves coding something utterly useless for no apparent reason...just because it's art!
We do it because we love it...I do it naturally; I do it randomly (on the blackboards, in my head, on a piece of paper) almost daily in that mindless institution known as school. There's nothing to think about, I'm bored, so I code.
I have a great background that says, "Codito, ergo sum. I code, therefore I am." I think this embodies what we do and the whole reason for things like GNU and the GPL in the first place. We don't do it because we're paid to do it, we do it because we love it. And then, when we're done, we share our creations with the world--we don't care whether we get paid, we just want to code.
What are my goals? I don't know...I just want to code. See you all later...I'm gonna go hack on Perl!
A manager was about to be fired, but a programmer who worked for him invented a new program that became popular and sold well. As a result, the manager retained his job.
The manager tried to give the programmer a bonus, but the programmer refused it, saying, "I wrote the program because I though it was an interesting concept, and thus I expect no reward."
The manager, upon hearing this, remarked, "This programmer, though he holds a position of small esteem, understands well the proper duty of an employee. Lets promote him to the exalted position of management consultant!"
But when told this, the programmer once more refused, saying, "I exist so that I can program. If I were promoted, I would do nothing but waste everyone's time. Can I go now? I have a program that I'm working on."
-- Geoffrey James, "The Tao of Programming"
'nuff said.
-- CondorDes
I think this sort of thing is a good idea in the long run...not because of the gender or sex issue so much as the fact that we're now getting another whole segment of population online that before, for whatever reason, wasn't as interested in going on the net.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm glad men and women are finally coming onto a more level playing field; namely, the Internet. Regardless of what you call them, female geeks are welcome out here--I would like to think that at least the geeks aren't sexist on the net.
Let's say for the sake of argument that I contribute to a project. Maybe it's a bug diff or an extra feature; it doesn't matter. According to this system, that means I will get a certain number of "shares" in this project. When this project makes money, I make money.
What I would like to know is, where does the money come from? If this project is Open Source, then it is, by definition, free. Who is going to pay me money for a piece of software they can get free?
I'm not quite sure I understand this system, and how it is supposed to benefit developers and users.
Probably, but keep in mind that a musician may have to play parts of their piece, or even the whole thing, just to see how it sounds. Debugging a program is similar to this in that the programmer has to run the code as part of the debugging process, just to see how it works. If this analogy is viable and true, we now have a workable method for running these "illegal" programs.
He isn't dictating how the world should be. He is telling how the world is. We would all like to have computers that don't crash and plenty of money to go around without having to worry about earning it every day.
Unfortunately, this isn't the case. He was NOT telling us to go switch operating systems, he was telling us that if Linux is going to gain widespread acceptance within BOTH the server and the desktop arenas, then we need to make changes.
In this case, I happen to agree with him. Linux doesn't exist in a vacuum; we can't ignore the fact that people (besides us hackers) are actually using this OS. We certainly aren't obligated to suit their whims, but if we want Linux to gain widespread use, it would certainly behoove us to do so at least part of the time.
-- CondorDes
Microsoft is just trying to BS their way into the Internet market, and in my opinion it isn't working. We've been running NT servers and workstations where I work for a long time, and have had ENORMOUS problems. The only reason we still have it is because my teacher (I work in a school as a sysadmin) is afraid to get rid of it after "all the work we've put in" on it. Our linux box has been up for 72 days straight w/out a problem (and it has EVERYTHING running on it), and one of our Sun workstations has been up even longer. Besides, you've never heard of a supercomputer running Windows, have you? That's an oxymoron--a contradiction in terms. Windows is far to slow and unscalable to use in the kind of applications where Sun is best. Microsoft doesn't even have anything that could even compete with Sun...they're in totally separate arenas, I don't care how many Microsoft techs throw around phrases such as "scalability" and "robust architecture"...they're just trying to BS their way onto the net, that's all. To everyone using NT as an HTTP server: What were you thinking? So what if it runs SQL? Try mysql on Apache...I have a feeling you will be SO much happier! -- CondorDes
I live in the SF Bay Area...Contra Costa and Alameda counties are seriously considering doing something like this. Yes, there are security issues, but I think they can be resolved pretty easily...I have been doing some web security work and I think it could be done.