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Which Organizations Have Standardized on Mozilla?
andy brunetto asks: " We are investigating email clients to deploy as our "standard" at the college where I work. I'm trying to find out who is using Mozilla for their email. When I say "who" I mean organizationally, as I realize 99% of us geeks already use it. What organizations out there are rolling out Mozilla as their standard web and/or email client, and why? Yes, we are considering using Thunderbird, once it is final. Thanks!" Hopefully this will make companies realize that the Internet isn't comprised of just IE users.
Even Microsoft knows IE is a horrible browser.
My organization is entirely devoted to using mozilla and mozilla based products.
And yes, I AM looking to expand our current one man workforce.
I am a filthy pirate.
Submitter said:I'm trying to find out who is using Mozilla for their email.
Editor adds: Hopefully this will make companies realize that the Internet isn't comprised of just IE users.
The submitter asked about using Mozilla for email, not webbrowsing.
Trolling is a art,
Sun Microsystems is transitioning to use Netscape 7, which is close enough to Mozilla...
of our large R&D development community is using Netscape, mostly because these people are using mostly Solaris or some are using Red Hat (7.3/8/9).
The other half is ALL IE, Outlook, Exchange.
--------
Free your mind.
Sorry, but the real geeks use Mutt ... graphical email clients are for geek posers ;)
(Score:-1, Wrong)
I use KMail, it's quite a good mailer IMHO.
Really? Everyone I know uses pine, Eudora, or Mail.app - you should be careful about making assumptions based on your own personal circumstances before you try to extrapolate data for use at an organization.
In Soviet Rush, today's Tom Sawyer gets high on you.
Hopefully this will make companies realize that the Internet isn't comprised of just IE users.
Sorry, 99% of geeks may browse with Moz but 99% of the rest of the world uses IE.
Our client has standardized on IE 5.5 (soon 6). Once upon a time they supported Netscape 4.
This post is brought to you by Firebird 0.6
If I had something intelligent to say, I would have said it.
We rolled out IE5.01 using the IEAK (Internet Explorer Administration Kit). It would be a great thing if one could customize Mozilla in straight-foward manner for corporate deployments.
Wearing pants should always be optional.
I don't have a GUI you insensitive clod!!!
MIS has folks on Mozilla 1.2, but I'm running Eudora 5.2x or pine if I'm on a shell. I've used Eudora/pine for soooo long, it's just what I like.
Most geeks I know use Outlook. Sorry to burst your bubble. I've used both and Mozilla is still lacking significantly, especially with regard to calendaring.
However, some wanna-be-geeks define "geek" as "someone who uses the same software as me". In that case, you are still wrong as your percentage would have been 100%, not 99%.
"If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
Unless all your clients are running Win2k with the antitrust service pack, and have no permissions....you can't elminate Internet Exploder.
I've installed the Netscape versions of Mozilla on the systems I maintain, and urge people to use them. It seems to work.
A middle school I visited one time to fix a few things were using Mozilla as the de-faco browser.
All public workstations at Columbia University have Mozilla as their default browser.
Still, the quest for quality must go on. Which is easy for me to say, since I don't do code. Sorry.
It's only funny until someone gets hurt. Then, it's hilarious.
I'd be happy to stay out of the personal affairs of anyone with the name "Acidic Diarrhea".
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that something you might want to consider! think about the security implications! even oe can disable html viewing!
Ideally yes, but 99% is a bit generous. I know quite a few it gurus that just use IE. I mean mozilla is the politically correct thing to do, but you know, IE is pretty familiar to most people. If we could see the logs at Slashdot, I'm sure that IE would have a commanding lead.
I use Mozilla on three platforms (OS X, SuSE 8.2+Ximian and W2K). Does thaat equal an "organization"?
The only time I have ever had standardized E-mail was when I was at the University of Washington and everyone used Pine. Since then, my IT depts. have not enforced a strict e-mail policy.
I still really like Pine, but Mozilla is nice since it lets me see images. But I can't get Thunderbird to run!! Which is odd. Everyone I know who uses Outlook has constant problems, like sending multiple copies when they don't mean to, having it hang, having to deal with all that stupid meeting shit, etc.
We did investigate a whole slew of mail clients. We were originally using Netscape 4.7, but it was causing loads of problems. We discounted Netscape 7 due to it being so big and slow. Mozilla wasn't much better. Ironically, we settled on Outlook! Our reasons for using Outlook were mainly based around our financials system interfacing with it. Mozilla is good, but it just couldn't cut it in our organisation (also a University)
The only decent browser is Lynx.
Nah, everybody knows that the only decent browser is w3m!
(Score:-1, Wrong)
We chose Mozilla to go along with IE and Outlook. All the Netscape users are happy (we used to standardize on 4.77), all the Outlook users are saying "WTF is this dragon head on my desktop"
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
ActiveState uses mozilla in Komodo, a really good programming ide for Perl, PHP, Python, Tcl, and XSLT, and maybe for other products.
i have only seen Komodo, and it's a grat ide and makes good use of mozilla (it's embedded in their application).
I just don't trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn't die.
Whey you will realise that it is much easier and convinient to use text based e-mail clients which usually are more powerfull.
I love my fetchmail/procmail/mutt setup.
UC Davis uses Mozilla as its standard web browser, and they use Eudora as their standard mail client.
If you ask me, it is really stupid to require people who have Windows, and hence already have IE, to install Mozilla on their computers just so that they can get technical support from the help line. Ditto Eudora vs. Outlook Express. Why bother people and clutter up their computers?
In the corporate environments where I've been working, Microsoft servers, browsers and email remain the status quo.
As a web developer, I use Mozilla because it's stricter about standards, and pages that render well in Moz almost always look the same in IE, while the reverse isn't true. One coworker gives me a (humorous) hard time about my refusal to use Microsoft FrontPage or IE when our company is unquestionably "a Microsoft shop".
Seems like there's no businesses -- certainly not incorporated ones -- want to hire experts in free software like Linux, Apache, PostgreSQL and Mozilla when 2kServer, IIS, SQL Server and IE are what all the other big companies are using first. Mozilla's got an uphill battle, and it knows it.
Purdue used Netscape 7 as the standard browser and mail client on over 3000 lab machines.
There are a bunch of ASP's and B2B sites that only work with the latest versions of Internet Explorer, and we frequently use them here at the office.
I think IBM's license for Netscape has just run out so alot of people are switching to Mozilla, not sure if this is worldwide or just UK.
"Pushing little children, with their fully automatics, they like to push the weak around"
To say that 99% of "us geeks" use Mozilla is an absurdity.
and the small one.
and all the ones in between.
that is... IBM. We're standardized on W2K, IE, Windows Media, and Office 2K.
It's a piece of crap, and far too buggy for everyday use. I have problems with everything from multiple accounts to SSL.
I use Evolution for my mail client (and NOT with the Mozilla libs, because it inherits bugs from them).
However, as of 1.3, I've been pretty satisfied with Mozilla as my primary web browser. It seems to work well enough for me to get along with it.
I just started using Mozilla Mail. Despite having RTFM, I still can't figure out how to make Mozilla mail default to plain text for everyone. It's the only thing that tarnishes this otherwise delightful mail program.
Ummm, mozilla mail sucks ass. That 99% number couldn't possibly be accurate.
I use PINE and know of many other "geeks" who also use PINE - out of the total pool of "geeks" I know, I would put the number of PINE users at about 25%.
99% + 25% ?
Check your numbers, please.
Oh, and Cliff: "comprised of" is not correct. You either say "composed of" or "comprises" - you DO NOT say "comprised of".
i've been trying to get my small company to switch to Mozilla mail, but not many have because it doesn't have Outlook's calendar and scheduling features.
On the other hand, nobody invites me to meetings any more!
Personally, while I prefer Mozilla and Mozilla Firebird as browsers, I wouldn't touch Mozilla as an e-mail client. When people have problems with Mozilla or Thunderbird, the two most frequent answers are: "completely uninstall and reinstall Mozilla/Thunderbird," and/or "completely remove your profile and make a new one." Umm, thanks, but no thanks. What's the point of using an e-mail client where you delete your e-mail archive/profile if there's a problem, especially if your e-mail archive dates back a while? And since Thunderbird isn't even in beta yet, and "risky" changes are supposed to be made in Mozilla 1.5 and 1.6, I would stay far away from using Mozilla as an e-mail client.
If you're looking for decent e-mail clients, I'd recommend Pegasus Mail or The Bat! for Windows machines, or KMail or Evolution for *nix machines. All four are specialized for e-mail and are damned good at what they do. Test them out to see which works better for you and your organization.
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
"Why does the font change half way down the page??"
Ugh.
Currently Netscape is standard MUA, but it is probable that it is going to change to microsoft's product.
(Personally I do not use Netscape as MUA -- I use my own MUA...)
[MUA = Mail User Agent]
I work with small businesses, anywhere from 5 to 100 users. I have 3 clients of 20, 25, and 45 users respectively all using mozilla mail. Hell, I even have the 45 person shop switched over (almost everyone) to the ALPHA thunderbird. I just don't need the hassle of outlook virus issues, the users who don't use IMAP can keep their POP mail on their /home directory n the server, the address book talks to LDAP. I use the latest SuSE mail server which integrates LDAP address books out of the box,as well as webmail.
I am switching to thunderbird because we have some corporate partners who have B2B websites that require IE5 or better, so I need to standardize on IE unfortunately. Thunderbird can invoke your default browser in windows, unlike Moz Mail.
Well, I love it, but not exactly in an enterprise setting.
that something you might want to consider! think about the security implications! even oe can disable html viewing!
Who in their right mind uses their browser for email? This is rampaging stupidity at a level not seen since Dan Qyale was VP! Email is best served by a program dedicated to just that. Especially one that will not go out at fetch images linked from, but not included in (vomit) HTML emails.
I used to use Netscape for both web browsing and Email. When I upgraded to Netscape 4.x I was in for a rude shock! Not only was the browser sub-standard, the email client was crap! So I moved my email to The Bat! and never looked back. Now I can change browsers without worrying about whether it can import my email or not.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
MIT's Athena stations run Solaris 8 or Red Hat 7.3. The default graphical mail client here is Evolution (using IMAP) but everyone still has the option of using pine, *mh, or a webmail interface based on IMP from the Horde Project.
Mozilla's mail client is available, but it does not have a large following at all at my campus.
forgot about that classic ace ventura line!
Actually, I'd be interested in hearing from anybody with a good suggestion for an IMAPS mail client for either Windows or unix (FreeBSD esp.). Mozilla is nice, but I like options (besides PINE, which I use).
At my office, we follow a simple Bring Your Own Client Policy. This is mainly because we don't much care what OS our people use, as long as they're not asking for support.
On Linux, I ran Sylpheed. On Mac, I run Entourage. I don't think anyone's actually touched the Mozilla Mail client around here, but I could be wrong.
(And yes, I just admitted to using an MS product on a Mac. Deal with it. Entourage works very well for the mass of IMAP accounts which I deal with on a daily basis.)
Raptor
"Procrastination is great. It gives me a lot more time to do things that I'm never going to do."
I use pine! I'm not sure what you mean by "default" but what is wrong w/ doing something like imap? There is nothing wrong w/ picking a default for people i.e. mozilla but let people choose/configure what they would like. (that is is it switchable?) Personally I only know a few people who use mozilla.
-bloo
Insteead I use the Epiphany browser. Epiphany is a simple browser that uses the Mozilla gecko library. Its a whole lot better than that horrible XUL crap that mozilla ships with. It has only the buttons you need, and it only has four tabs in its configuration dialog. (So your mom can use it.
It's for the Gnome Desktop Environment only though, but thats why its so fast as it only has to cater for one platform.
Between that and Mozilla not being able to lie about what it is to IE-only sites, that company is Internet Explorer and Outlook Express.
Then there's the Mac OS 9 based print/pre-press company. Mozilla dropped support for OS 9, yet we can't make the switch to OS X because of Quark.
That company is also IE/Outlook Express.
I'd switch if I could, but I can't so I won't.
so did the clueless moderators too based on the modding.
We used to use Netscape, but migrated to Mozilla at 1.2 and are currently at 1.31. The email client is GREAT, I prefer it to Outlook. Most users don't know anything else since we have always used a Mozilla-like client. One user complained after switching from Outlook (I think it was a case of being used to it, and not having enough compu-savvy to be comfortable with the switch) and that person uses Outlook to this day. Interestingly enough, he is the only one who ever gets hit with email viruses ;-) The Junk filter is nice, and we use a web based calendaring solution from http://brownbearsw.com and a Perl based message board (Yabb) for sharing notes on stuff.
You'll surely get modded down.
This geek uses Gnome Evolution. I would think Evolution would make a lot more sense for an organiation than Mozilla's mail client. Most organizations are going to be predominantly addicted to Outlook.
"A man talking sense to himself is no madder than a man talking nonsense not to himself."
Browser stats on my intranet site at a Fortune-100 company say that 2% of our users are using Mozilla. Sucks, because many intranet authors here write stuff only for IE and I'm trying to convince them to at least test on Mozilla or NS4 (on solaris) to see if their pages are seriously broken, but it's hard when 95%+ users are IE.
The Citadel, a military college, has always used Netscape. When I left about 9 months ago they were testing Mozilla more as a browser. Most of the Professors use Netscape mail. I would be surprised if they switched over but you never know.
The two are basically the same they just look a little different.
I'm a big fan. But I still use IE.
Old habits die hard!
Losers whine about doing their best
Winners go home and f*ck the prom queen!
It's Quayle.
Let's see:
flaming for being 'stupid'
3 ! in the post
use of the word 'crap'
Yep. -1,Troll
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
"as I realize 99% of us geeks already use [Mozilla]."
Sorry kid, but where I come from, 99% of people use Outlook and/or Exchange. Exchange or not, Outlook 2000 and XP are very capable email clients, and the easy calendar/contact integration and Palm synchronization make them the real winners. (By the way, there is a patch for Outlook 2000 that disallows opening of any harmful attachments. This comes standard with Outlook XP. I switched from Eudora two years ago and I've never even been able to open a virus-laden attachment, let alone send one, as it asks for confirmation when a program tries to automatically send something.) I browse the web using Mozilla (I'm using it right now), but Outlook wins hands-down on email.
If you want to standardize, standardize on the server side, not the client. Most organizations I have worked at standardized on IMAP (whether they did so through Exchange or another IMAP server.) IMAP has the advantage of keeping everyone's email on the server so people can access it through the web, at multiple computers, etc. The disadvantage, of course, is disk space -- you're going to need at least 10MB per account, and preferably 25MB or more, which quickly adds up. Plus, you're going to need to find a reliable way to back that up, and tape drives are expensive.
My recommendation is to standardize on IMAP, set up some webmail, and have some HOWTOs for several email clients. This being a college, you're going to find that most everyone will be using Outlook Express. Include HOWTOs for Mozilla, OE, Outlook, and whatever you choose as your webmail solution (there will be people who use the webmail exclusively.) As long as you set the standard on the server side, I don't think it's necessary to set a standard client -- just a recommended one. If you want that to be Mozilla, so be it, but understand that not everyone is going to want to use it.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
BYU (Brigham Young University) has several large Linux labs, which unsurprisingly have mozilla as the default (and, if you exclude lynx and konqueror, only) browser installed.
Contact Me (got tired of viruses emailing me).
I would be pissed off if my school implemented Mozilla as the default e-mail client. Is it just me or does Mozilla STILL not have a spell checker? That is a feature that I can't live without in a mail client.
Seeing how I am on a school lab computer right now, lets see what options are availabe for email.
Netscape Navigator 7.0
IE 5.0 (can't seem to find outlook express)
and my favorite X-win32, that lets me open KMail
hmm ok so this NT 4.0 machine that I am on is old as dirt, but at least it has mail clients with spellchecking.
The main reasons we're sticking with Mozilla and not going IE?
Platform availability. It's available on Windows, Linux & Irix.
Not MS
Spam filtering
Doesn't propogate virii
Low/No cost
Why are we going with Mozilla instead of Netscape?
Available on all above platforms.
Doesn't have the AOL marketing embedded in it.
Windows installations will be WinInstalled, so all plugins & customizations can be centralized.
Hope it helps.
I love Mozilla as a browser but wouldn't touch its email app with a 10-foot pole. Besides, is their a huge advantage to centralizing on only one email app? Other than having tech support only dealing with a single program, email is a bit different than the web - I'm unaware of any major problems with using any random IMAP client to read from any random IMAP server. If someone likes a particular program, and they know it well enough not to cause a load on your help desk, is there a real reason not to let them use it?
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Who cares what other organizations are using for their email client. The question you should be asking is "Does Mozilla have the features our organization needs in an email client?"
:-)
Or are you running into a political blockade; sort of "we shouldn't use Mozilla, no one else is using it", so you're looking for ammo to kill that excuse?
And yes, I do use Mozilla as an email client.
I'm the CIO of a small internet-based recruiting company. Our recruiters are independant contractors who use their own computers, but Mozilla is the officially supported browser and email client. The main reason for this is all the security related flaws in MSIE/Outlook. We were having virus and spyware related problems when a majority of recruiters used MSIE/Outlook, and I have yet to hear of a Mozilla user getting infected.
Browsing -- yes, email -- no.
...and that's the way the cookie crumbles.
Everyone I know uses mutt, because Pine is a slow-ass memory hog.
It might be hard to argue why mozilla should be your standard email client. However, here's a list of good reasons to give if anyone's having a hard time coping:
:)
Crossplatform capability (Mac, Win, Lin, and more as they become ported)
Multi-mail account support (Not a huge issue anymore, but I much prefer Mozilla's method over Eudora's or Microsoft's)
Topnotch browser (if using the kitchensink suite)
Bayesian spam mail filtering.
You should save the Bayesian spam mail filtering point for last. That will be, I think, mozilla mail's killer feature, much like popup block and tabs is mozilla browser's killer feature(s).
While you're arguing for mozilla mail to be standardized across a network, you might as well pitch in a good word for mozilla as a browser. Take your pick of kitchensink suite, firebird, or camino on OSX. Isn't browser choice great?
I use Evolution for e-mail in Linux and Opera for browsing. (I use Opera for both under W2K.) Haven't had a major problem with either in quite some time. Haven't tried the opera mail client under Linux. They've only added it recently, and to be honest, I'm happy enough with Evolution I haven't really been tempted to cheat on it.
My preference for the last year or two has been Sylpheed. However, if you're restricted to Windows, I can say that I had a very good experience with Thunderbird, and so far, haven't found any reason not to continue using it. Even in such an infant stage of development, I have yet to have a single crash or weird error while using it.
There is, fyi, a Windows version of Sylpheed, but it tends to be relatively unstable.
When I say "who" I mean organizationally, as I realize 99% of us geeks already use it.
What a joke.
I guess you've never heard of Opera or Safari, both of which are arguably better browsers than Mozilla?
(And yes, I realise that not everyone will agree with me on that - that's why I used the word "arguably" in my statement.)
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Hopefully this will make companies realize that the Internet isn't comprised of just IE users.
/. will recognize the internet is comprised primarily of non-geeks.
And then maybe
Add mozilla 1.1 (web and email) and Firebird .6 (web)= Faster Page renders and no email viruses (all attachments go to a special dir and are scanned, that address shouldn't get attachments anyhow...)
= me happy one man IT dept ;) , spreading the word of OSS and OS X...
We use novell groupwise... Mozilla lacks a calendar, the ability to see other peoples email/calenders/setup proxy's/etc ...
I use evolution to check that mail, but loose all of the groupware features that it offers by doing that.
How many companies still use straight, plain-jane email clients and not some sort of groupware solution?
I really don't think mozilla is a viable solution, based on the trend towards using groupware that I have seen.
Altp.
We have about 350 employees and we are standardizing on Mozilla. Outlook and Internet Explorer are considered VERBOTEN here due to their inherent (and, in our opinion, insurmountable) security risks. You can read our statement regarding the issue on our website:
Why Not IE?
Thanks to our no IE/no Outlook policy we have avoided EVERY major MS email worm outbreak. That means no downtime from the outbreaks, which translates in hours or days of work time not lost. (Compare to MS itself, which seems to lose its email system due to a new worm for at least a couple of days yearly.)
Life is short: void the warranty.
There is alot more brand recognition with netscape, and Joe won't feel that he's using some weird browser. With netscape, he'll feel more confident, and perhaps use it for web browsing much more, rather than the IE that came with his computer.
What are we going to do tonight Brain?
I don't know bout you but i like evolution. And as far as non geeks go my wife likes evolution too. But my dad is hard core mozilla fan. And my mom really likes it too, even more so than outlook at work that she had my dad install mozilla at work. But my work uses outlook unfortunately.
-Dar
You forgot to point out that Sun's current browser standard is Netscape 4.7 (at least internally, which I assume is what you're talking about.) It has been for years, though Netscape 6 and 7 are also available if you know where to look.
There are many, many internal applications at Sun that are written for Netscape 4.7 and don't work in NS6/NS7 (don't ask me how, but it's true. It boggles my mind, too.) So yes, Sun has 40,000 employees still using the broken, non-standards-compliant Netscape 4.7 as their primary browser, and they've been trying to "transition" away from it for over 2 years now.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
I remember when a standard was a well-documented protocol (e.g. POP or IMAP) and not a particular implementation of that protocol (e.g. Mozilla or Outlook).
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
No one is going to touch mozilla until all the crash bugs are closed. I've had a crash bug open since moz 1.1 and its still not resolved.6
see bug # 211436 http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21143
The company I work for (a small software development outfit with 10 peopke) uses Netscape/Mozilla exclusivly for mail and web.
But it's not because it's a better browser per say but because it's basic policy has much more restricted mime intergration on a default install.
IE has forever hurt our business model and we will continue you use other tools (ie. non-microsoft) untill they address those issues.
Our main issuse, is not "What Browser Do You Use" but, this is the browser you "CANT" use.
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch.
We've standardized on WebMail. Its simple and compliant with most browsers out there. Its not free, nor is it Free, but it seems more secure and stable than squirrelmail to me. There are of course several other systems available that imitate webmail, I'd suggest looking at all of them if I was considering this.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
"Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do."
-Steven Brust
C'mon, I understand using it for web browsing, but email?
Most of the posts that I see in mailing-lists are written with Pine, gnus (emacs' mail thingy), Mutt, KMail or MS Outlook. Maybe there's some Mozilla too, but it's not near "99%", not by a extremely long shot.
Ob-"I use": I'm very happy with Mutt myself, and my friends use also Mutt or Pine. Maybe we're all oldschool guys :-)
Ob-"Kids these days": Kids these days! When I was your age, we didn't have email. We had to shout to each other from miles and miles of distance! Sore throats were quite usual, trust me :-)
My weblog in spanish
And Evolution when in Linux . . .
A side benefit of this exercise would be that we can conclusively say something more impressive than worst_name_ever and his associates are simply part of the 1% who don't use mozilla.
Or maybe, (doubtful), there might be a resounding chorus from the peanut gallery, indicating that the 99% figure quoted by the original poster was simply colorful language / figure of speech.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2003-06-29-ga
Gave me popup in the behind using Mozilla for the first time.
You can bet the Microsoft software internet add junkware guys are working on Mozilla as fast as they can.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
Most geeks use Mozilla? Speak for yourself - We use Kmail and Evolution.
Mozilla is simply too slow.
I guess I am in the 1% of geeks who do not use Mozilla at all, then.
I've used the 1.0 series, and while there are some nice features I have no compelling reason to switch.
I don't work there, but I knew someone that did, and they use Netscape 4.7x for the browser and email. I suspect still the old because they're all on relatively old computers (still fast, but not cutting edge), and at some point I'm sure they'll migrate to using Netscape 7.x
I'd go with MozillaBrowser and MozillaMail as seperate applications, but the Mail isn't quire mature yet, but it is still very functional. I recommend it, even if it isn't 1.0 yet. I would also recommend by default installing useful extensions for either product (AdBlock for Firebird, and View->MessageBodyAs for Thunderbird)
"Time is long and life is short, so begin to live while you still can." -EV
Where I work, people use what they want to use. Many browse with IE, some use netcape or Opera, others use Konqueror or Mozilla.
For E-mail, most use Eudora, some use Outlook, pine or Kmail.
None that I know of use their web browser for E-mail.
Why do most organizations think they need to standardize on products rather than protocols or document standards? OK, the "IT department" thinks they need to provide support, but in many cases you could loosen up a bit... Use widely adopted protocols. Avoid proprietary protocols and formats that lock you in with a specific product.
)9TSS
99% of hardcore Linux/OSS advocacy geeks use Mozilla. There are many, many more geeks who aren't deep into the advocacy thing, and even develop software for Windows or OS X. Are they using Mozilla? 99% of them are not.
Open your eyes... the world is moving to Safari.
The Networking Services and Information Technologies (NSIT) folk at the University of Chicago distribute a connectivity package during orientation week that includes Mozilla. The package also includes stuff like Eudora, though. Also the public computers in the Reynolds Club are made by Sun, so there's no IE there.
You can see a picture here.
99% of geeks use mozilla mail?
I use pine, and so do plenty more than 1% of geeks.
Considering the suckiness and instability of mozilla mail, I would guess the number is closer to 99% of geeks do *not* use mozilla mail.
Jesus. I know a certain "andy brunetto" who is going to be sleeping with mommy tonight.
I would say that IE is the defacto standard, having overtaken Netscape way back (why download when it's installed already, and pretty good?), however I would not make the same statement about IIS, SQLServer, 2kserver, since, especially in larger organizations, it's been a Solaris/Oracle combination, with WebSphere or BEA. On the contrary, it's M$ that's playing catchup with .NET. The 'it's cheaper' card is harder to play now that orgs can swap out their Solaris server and use RedHat.
We actively check for browser agents and will happily serve any IE customer. Anything else gets redirected to a nice page expressing our apologies and requesting that they upgrade to a more compatible browser, then we redirect to microsoft.
don't like Mozilla mail.. never did.
We support Mozilla, Outlook (*shudder*), Outlook Express, Pine, Eudora, and SquirrelMail (an excellent IMAP-based webmail client). We encourage Mozilla. Personally, I use Mail.app on OSX.
Absurdity: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion. -- Ambrose Bierce
Genentech (large biotech firm) was using Mozilla as the corporate standard, but thanks to too many interoperability problems with 3rd party vendors, and chicks whining about missing the whiz-bang features in Outlook, it is no longer being considered. Internet Explorer has won out. :(
We have standardized on Opera 7.X for both Windows (W2K Pro) and Linux (Slackware 8.1) with the most of us on Linux. It was the Boss's decision, he had been using Opera,disliked Netscape and is unwilling to look at Mozilla. Mail is handled via Open WebMail ( http://www.openwebmail.org ) as our "email client", utilizing Sendmail and Apache as the backend (plus MailScanner, Clamav and of course Spam Assassin!). When the Boss isn't looking though, I mostly use Phoenix!
Strange but true.
I work for a school district that has about 200 Mac clients and 100 windows. We install a minimum of three browsers on all machines. Usually we include: Mozilla, IE, Netscape 4.8, and Safari on OSX. I personally recommend Mozilla to all the teachers. Unfortunately, it is impossible to rely on one browser for today's web. However, I prefer Apple's Safari on OSX and usually recommend that to the teachers. Safari does provide better integration with disk images and installers. It makes the transition to OSX a little less confusing. Allthough I personally use Mozilla on my powerbook, there are some interface quirks that can prove confusing for the near techno-illiterate teachers.
I received an email a few months ago stating that we were dropping our netscape site licenses in favor of Mozilla, but for email we still use Lotus Notes yech.
We used to use old Netscape 4.x for mail. Now that I have been brought in I am migrating users slowly to Mozilla.
The transition has been rather smooth since you can easily import old inboxes and such. The best thing has been the junk mail control. One of my users has just fallen in love with the fact that junk mail gets automagically sent to her junk mail file (thanks to Bayesian filtering).
The only thing I have found missing (unless I just don't know where to look) is a mail monitoring program that sits in the task bar (on Windows clients) and tells them when they have new e-mails. Plus there was no icon for the mail program at lest up until version 1.3. Haven't tried 1.4 yet.
So far everything has been great.
This is a small business with almost no geeks here except me and one other guy. The level of understanding in regards to computers is very low in general but the users seem to work with it just fine.
Evolution is a pretty full-featured mail client. I like it's additional features such as the calendaring etc. Updates come pretty regularly if you check every 2-3 weeks or so.
Plus it's easy to integrate spam-assassin into.
Mozilla's interface is tooo.... dunno. I just don't care for it. Evolution is pretty straight-forward and it's easy to figure out how to do stuff. Evolution is also faster than Mozilla in terms of searching folders too!
There's a gorilla from Manilla whose a fella that stinks of vanilla and has salmonella.
I'll take a few random crash bugs as apposed to the over 30 megs of "security" updates one has to download for IE paired with windows. So since crash bugs are such an issue, I'll assume companies should also not be using IE? Any Microsoft software whatsoever?
I worked for a french chemical company as a contractor 5 years ago, they were a Netscape shop, they has modified Netscape 3.0 to do the work they needed and had stuck to it, we were rollling out win98 of all things and I remember building a installer for Netscape 4.5, but of course this isn't Mozilla yet, but it's the only place I worked that used anything but IE on a windows platform.
~corporate tool, but employed~
"as I realize 99% of us geeks already use it"
The only population that has 99% adopted Mozilla's e-mail client is Marc Andreesen's Mom.
"Sig free in '03!"
Here at Wake Forest, we have a program where all students receive IBM laptops through the university (it's included in tuition). These come preloaded with a lot of expensive commercial software that most students couldn't afford to purchase legally if they weren't going through the university. The interesting thing is that this gives the university a great deal of control over the initial setup of students' machines (including those who are non-CS majors). We can customize them all we want or delete Windows and put Linux on there but the vast majority of students are just using what comes on there.
Until now, the Windows machines were actually all set up to use Netscape 4.79 and its mail client and to hide IE and especially Outlook. This was done (I assume) for security reasons, especially considering that virtually all the virus email I've received from on-campus mailing lists, etc is from people who ignored the preconfigured setup and installed Outlook Express anyway.
This fall, they are moving to Mozilla 1.4 (I'm guessing that the reason is the similary to the old Netscape interface). They decided that Mozilla 1.4 was superior to the newer Netscapes and are deploying it over a year on about 5,500 installations.
Combined with another new pilot program to preinstall Linux dual-boot setups for CS students here (and give us bigger hard disks than other students), open source seems to be on the rise here.
A couple years ago I was investigating the best Mail program to use as an client for a new IMAP-based mail system. We were also using LDAP for address-lookup.
We went through many many clients to determine their compatibility with IMAP and LDAP and finally went with Outlook Express on Windows and Apple's Mail App on Mac.
Seems sort of sad that the state of Mail clients at the time was such that OE fit needs the best. Here's the problems we ran into with various mail clients.
Outlook (2000, not Express) - Stored 'Sent Items' locally instead of in the IMAP-based Sent Items folder. Spewed an ugly looking error dialog box every time it lost its IMAP connection due to inactivity.
Eudora - Stored Sent Items locally. LDAP-lookup of e-mail addresses is horrible.
Mozilla - At the time it was version pre 1.0.
Various Others - Evaluated a few others, but they all fell short of requirements.
Sadly.. Outlook Express, while not great, fulfilled the requirements better than any of the other ones out there.
That said, since then, we have put Mozilla on a few machines here and there. Mozilla has improved greatly since the pre 1.0 days, but we haven't completely replaced OE yet.
Yeah, my 3 person organization! ;)
One of the 3 is only 9yrs old, but man, cartoonnetwork.com and nick.com *fly* with Mozilla.
Seriously, I encourage every organization that I work with to use Mozilla and to only use IE when necessary. People just don't know that there *are* alternatives!
Where I work we are migrating everyone to mozilla (300+ users). There have been a few complaints about speed when it comes to attachments and mozilla being the browser for all html in mozilla mail but that's pretty much it.
Some users are using outlook with our imap server and while they can send and receive attachments quicker there are still more issues. The cost of installing exchange is not worth a few minor inconveniences that will be resolved with newer Mozilla releases.
Mozilla mail/Thunderbird is almost there.Keep it up guys!!!
40,000 users, all IE..
.. it costs money to be different. And right now, being non microsoft is 'different'.
Why? More WebPages support it. As long as people make pages that require IE, there is going to be issues changing.
And no, we cant just 'ignore those pages'. This is a business.. you don't have that luxury.
Its also embedded into WIndows, and is easily managed for updates.. more so then Moz/etc...
Just as a disclaimer i use Konq personally.. but reality is at the office you have to get work done. not screw with things that dont work....even if it the other guys fault
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I use mozilla to access my yahoo mail, does that count?
With the ability to access all my mail from anywhere, including my address book, notes and calendar I'm not sure how anyone on the go gets any real emailing done without web-based email. Sure, the spell checker isn't type-as-you-go (yet) and a few other niceties are missing. But it's email, how complicated do you want it?
Personally I'd trade VBScript emails for ultra portability any day.
IBM's official standard is now 'Internet Explorer or Mozilla on Windows, and Mozilla on Linux and AIX'. Interpretation depends upon the location -- in Hursley Mozilla has pretty much taken over on Windows...
No popups.
No spam.
It's great.
No one is going to touch mozilla until all the crash bugs are closed. I've had a crash bug open since moz 1.1 and its still not resolved.
/)
/) in the mozilla URL bar. then click on the crapzilla.html file that is shown in the file list.
From the bug you mentioned:
Follow these instructions EXACTLY. Open up your version of mozilla (1.4 or nightlies)
Make sure you have the recommended version of java installed (1.4.1 is recommended by the mozilla 1.4 release notes, or any other version will do)
Start up the javascript console and the java console in that order.
make mozilla fill 1/3 of your screen with the javascript console taking up another 1/3 and the java console the last 1/3.
put the 3 files (crapzilla.html, crapzilla.java, crapzilla.class in your root drive (c:\ or
type c:\ (or
wait till the counter counts down to 1500 and you will see a alert box. press Cntrl-Q to exit mozilla, click on the javascript console and hit file->exit, then quickly switch to the java console and hit the close button.
mozilla should now crash with the talkback window.
Yes, I'm so sure that this particular bug is going to prevent millions of people from adopting Mozilla-based products.
I graduated there in 1991, and all I can say is that Columbia's labs were full of Mac Pluses running system 6. None of the lab computers were hooked into the Internet. I doubt anything's changed since then.
What a dumb ass bug to be bitching about, you are closing all the windows, is any data corrupted? So what that it crashes on EXIT.....And you won't switch because of this bug...please.
Well, as far as web browsing goes, too many sites on our campus require IE, so we can't go to Mozilla until HR writes for both browsers.
I can't recommend mozilla for e-mail until the following features are implemented:
1) Automatic attachment download to a specified directory, just like Eudora. This is a very handy feature and one our users are used to.
2) Spell check as you go instead of spell check only on send. Little red squiggles under misspelled words has become the standard for any text creation software.
3) Delete from server after X number of days for both pop and imap.
I use thunderbird at home and Eudora at work since I have to support it.
Our campus is moving right into MS's back pocket, so we'll all be switching to Outlook pretty soon I'll bet. Sigh.
I'll go ahead an say the University of Saskatchewan (in Canada) uses Mozilla as default browser and mail client in the student computer labs.
There's about 25,000 students I think.. not sure how many stations, but plenty (hundreds at the very least).
..mork
pine is still the best for mail on the go imho. evolution is the best i've found if html mail is something you like. metamail is also a staple where i work. metamail is especially nice for decoding attachments that have been sent through command line mail with a pipe command.
max
It's only used by about 100 or so people but still...
As for web browsers, we're kinda stuck with IE as while other browser *may* work ok, most aren't extensively tested in that environment.
LilMikey.com... I'll stop doing it when you sto
I use Web Mail Clients exclusively, and only with Mozilla as the browser. So count me in. No problems with h*tmail or y*hoo. Consider deploying a web based email solution. I'm sure someone can suggest an open source solution.
While not completely rid of Outlook, they have Mozilla as part of the 'Standard Desktop'
Yeah, 99% of us geeks use Mozilla. My ass we all use Mozilla.
I seem to recall a particular slashdot poll which asked "The browser I use most often...".
Seems that only 55% of geeks use Mozilla. I bet the actual numbers are much less, and lots of people who use IE went for the CowboyNeal option or couldn't admit that they use IE.
Mail (gpg), News groups, disables Java, and disabled pop-ups. All for free with a set future. Might not have perfact Flash intagration but who cares, Flash wastes time and bandwidth.
This SIG pulled due to lack of funding. (This damn war is costing too much!)
is that something works well, out of the box,without any extra configuration. Don't get me wrong, as a browser, Mozilla is leaps and bounds ahead of other browsers when it comes to plugin installation, etc, but its not quite as mindless as IE. :P))), and still the largest complaints are flash installation, streaming media not working properly, or sites just being incompatible with Moz.
Trust me, i work at a small beige box company, and I've installed mozilla for customers (it does get to a point on a win98 box where IE just wont run without crashing ((as soon as you finish the installation
no text
Use pine/Eudora. And I think the new Linux computer lab (one and only on entire Uni) is using pine/Evolution. Sorry, but I'm not going to trust my mail to Thunderbird any time soon either. Firebird *cough*Phoenix*cough* is fine for displaying content - but my e-mail client is there to permanently *organize* content, and I want it stable, reasonably bugfree and upgradable.
At least the Mozilla project has figured out that might some of us are interested in some parts like Firebird, couldn't care less about Chatzilla and Moz Mail and whatever else they put in there. They're going from one big monolith to smaller apps that do their thing - sounds almost like the old Unix design profile, and I think that's a good thing...
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
As for the complaints about profile corruption, etc., I'll grant you that Pine doesn't have that issue, but Eudora sure does. I've certainly had some issues with Mozilla, but at this point they aren't any worse than most of the other mail clients I've seen. I've got 614 MB of mail archives from close to 20 years and a multitude of various email clients including VMS, and Mozilla handles it just fine, even when I have had profile problems and had to recreate one. I can't comment personally on SSL support, tho others in my group use it. The Bayesian spam filter is nowhere near the 98% accuracy I've seen claimed by others, but maybe it's not well enough trained yet, tho at 4200+ messages in my spam bucket I would think it should be.
I should note that I run Mozilla on W2K and keep all my folders remotely via UWash IMAP daemons. From a reliability standpoint I would certainly consider it as a viable candidate for our enterprise email app (we're currently a Eudora shop, for the most part, tho we also support Endymion Mailman and Pine). The one thing that knocked Mozilla out of the running for a long time was lack of a spell checker, but that's not longer an issue.
So, all you folks who can't stand it, what exactly are the problems?
- Gregg
We have found the enemy and he is us. - Pogo
my email servers are IMAP so I can reinstall client as many times as I want without losing anything.
New spam filtering in Mozilla works great - no false positives.
I was recently at one of the libraries at Florida State and all the computers setup up front with internet access had mozilla setup as their default web browser.
Lynx works quite well for browsing Slashdot. I am posting this message from it. The default colors need to be changed though.
#!/
My next comment on the 50%, how many of them were Opera or Konqueror users spoofing as MSIE?
My company uses Mozilla/Netscape for all web browsing, development, and email. Even the Pres and VP.
We are investigating email clients to deploy as our "standard" at the college where I work. I'm trying to find out who is using Mozilla for their email.
Do you know why IExploder and Outlurk have %95+ market share? It's not because Microsoft is a monopoly, or because they are better products, or because Bill Gates is a member of the Trilateral Commission or the Bilderbergers. It's because of the herd instinct. People want to use the same software that other people in their group use. Corporations use IE/Ol because other corporations do. Geeks use Linux because other geeks do. There are rare exceptions, but by and large human beings rival cattle in their ability to be molded by the opinion of their peers.
I get the impression from your question that you're seeking to follow the herd. If you were one of the rare exceptions then you wouldn't care what other companies are using, and just deploy Mozilla. But since you're asking, it seems to me that either you or someone above you needs the assurance that using Mozilla in an organization isn't new, innovative or radical.
You're not asking about problems others have uncovered while deploying Mozilla in an organization. That's not your concern at all. Instead you merely want to know who is using it. If you want to be a individual unswayed by the unthinking opinion of your peers, then just go deploy Mozilla. But if you just want to make sure your head isn't sticking above the level of the herd too far, then stick with the Microsoft products that all the other organizations are using.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Newer versions of kmail will just display the raw html with a link at the top of the message pane that says:
Note: This is an HTML message. For security reasons, only the raw HTML code is shown. If you trust the sender of this message then you can activate formatted HTML display for this message by clicking here.
"Here" of course being clickable. Its pure entertainment looking at some of the truly evil Outlook-exploiting shit in some of them. I can easily read mails sent to me from trusted users with clueless clients and still not pull images from spammer servers. Kmail Just Works.
- as I realize 99% of us geeks already use it
Not true.-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
if you had bothered to read down you would see :
version 2 - improved version
load the web page into mozilla and click ok to crash mozilla when the timer finishes counting down.
so much for +5 insightful.
next time read the friggin entire bug report.
At UCD, they have IE and Mozilla both installed but I doubt many people use Mozilla. If you don't know what it is, you'd choose IE.
As for on campus email, most people use UCD's internally written webmail, geckomail (which is actually quite good). Well, it might be a modified version of something else, but it doesn't seem like it. Of course pine is still available.
just answer the question and stop criticizing the submitter (me!), picking apart what a "geek" is, or going on about my choice of words? I did not ask for a review of Mozilla, or what other email/web clients exist, or your opinion on standardizing on a product. BTW, we standardize so we can provide suppoprt to the 3000+ computers here.
We are currently using Mozilla 1.3 as the standard install for the entire campus. In fact have been using Netscape 4.x ever since we moved from Banyan Vines to Windows/Samba.
We haven't had any problems and it seems like everyone here doesn't mind (or doesn't care). I think it might also have to do with the fact that we disallow the use of Outlook on college machines.
-- Slackware Geek
Do not handicap your children by making their lives easy. - Robert Heinlein
are you kidding? The browser, OK. But the mail?
No one is going to touch mozilla until all the crash bugs are closed.
Mozilla -> crash here and there
IE Exploder -> pop-up, pop-up, pop-up
Mozilla Email -> crash now and again
Outlook -> Mails to everyone in your address book of the latest Nicaragua money that was made by Penis enlargment pills.
The internal struggle of what to use continues for me!
-- Knowing too much can get you killed, but knowing who knows too much can make you rich.
A while back, MozillaZine ran Mozilla being used at universities.
Houston, MIT, Durham, Cambridge and The Helsinki University of Technology all use Mozilla in one form or another.
We are now switching our users over to either Netscape or Mozilla mail. These clients work with LDAP and save us the problems associated with running Outlook.
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211436 #c8
proves you wrong.
we only develop for IE, f- the rest.
I love the idea of Mozilla, and tried for almost two years to use it as my only web browser.
I got tired of the bugs, crashes, and loss of email that acompanied using it on a routine basis, and switched to a STABLE browser that has all of the mozilla features I cared about: OPERA.
I hope that at some point mozilla will be good enough to require fewer patches than internet explorer. I doubt that day has come, and mozilla is not on any of my systems until I feel I can trust it not to munge my mail.
-a.e.mossberg
I seem to remember seeing a Netscape icon briefly appear in mwm as I was installing.
Does Solaris 9 use a bundled Netscape in this manner?
99% of IE users are idiots. Discuss.
I'll stick with Opera and Eudora for my web browsing and email needs.
I currently work for the KGS as a student support assistant and for a long time we used Netscape 4.x but recently we've been moving to Netscape 7 and a few Mozilla installations. I'm campaigning for Mozilla but haven't gotten very far yet.
netscape.
I've had DOM manipulations work fine in Gecko, but BSOD on MSIE.
Throughly superior.
Not to be a smart ass (well, sorta), but what about IE? IE is at least as "unstable" as you report Mozilla to be. In my case, I've found that IE crashes far more than Mozilla does, yet I use Mozilla more than IE. I don't think that this is a criteria that many will be using to judge browsers, as both are relatively stable.
:) and the lock-in you get with MS Exchange, but the huge drawback being the fact that it is so easily comprimised by viruses and worms and whatnot.
:(
Seriously though, how many open crash bugs are left? It seems that the one you point out is somewhat complicated to duplicate, involves Mozilla interacting with Java (something that seems to cause most browsers some consternation), and is not an issue for 99% of the web-browsing public.
Not that this has anything to do with Mozilla Mail in the least. A comparison between Outlook and Mozilla Mail or Thunderbird might be a little more on topic. It seems to me that all three are, like their browser counterparts, fairly stable, and offer a fair to decent email experience.
I find that a big draw for Outlook would be it's well designed UI (seriously, it's about the only thing it's good for!
Sadly most people seem to be insanely ignorant of this point, and just keep chugging along, happily flooding the internet with Klez, Bugbear, and Sobig.
I think that the great feature that could attract people to the Mozilla team's offerings is the built-in Bayesian spam filter! Much like pop-up blocking, and, to a lesser extent, tabbed browsing, this is the kind of feature you can mention to somebody, and they go "Oh, hey... that's pretty cool!" It's definitely something that people need, given how much spam is out there, but if people don't know about it, then they will content to wallow in mediocrity.
-Colin
I am the tech guy for a small manufacturing/distribution company. For a couple years I made sure that I told the owners about every major Outlok exploit and worm. I also made a point to explain how hard it is to comply with MS licensing (upgrading OEM versions on Beige boxes etc.). One day one of the owners received a strange, personal, confidential Word document from a close friend's mail worm. I immediately received the OK to convert the company to Mozilla. I then expanded that to include IMAP as the standard delivery protocol. For IMAP support I would heve preferred Mulberry but users seemed to adapt quicker to Mozilla (simpler interface and better inline image support). Now after a few months people have adapted and everyone seems quite happy with the switch. Backups are easier. Remote access is possible. I still think some miss Outlook because it's prettier to them and because the calendar in Outlook is so much better but I think the rest either don't care or prefer Mozilla. I do get strange looks when I tell new hires that we use Mozilla for mail though.
Because of stupidity in Outlook Express, I really would have loved to standardize on Mozilla here. Unfortunately, while the Linux client works just fine, Mozilla Mail hangs Windows 9x every once in a while; this is enough to confuse, if not outright frustrate users.
When I made the recommendation half a year or so ago, I had to grudgingly recommend Outlook Express. Half a year later, I still have to say Mozilla is not practical in a Windows environment.
At my last job, I had the clue-free using Netscape 4.* for email, as with one registry entry in Windows I could force Netscape to look to a mapped Samba share for the netscape directory, and thus keep all their address books/local folders on a unix server where they were easily backed up. Mozilla/Netscape 6 removed that functionality. Has it been restored yet? I haven't bothered to look since I left that hellhole of a job...
I'm not aware of any way to make Mozilla execute arbitrary code by viewing a web page or email, which IE/Outlook is known for. For anybody who doesn't know, that's how Klez spreads, along with many other worms.
But I am the administrator for a graphics house, and the policy here has been to set up e-mail clients in Netscape 2.5 , 3.0 , 4.0, 4.5 etc, and now Mozilla (up to 1.4) The rule is that users are free to configure IE if they want, but they are on their own.
Here's why:
Until 3.0 Netscape creamed IE. After that, the system administrator ( me) arbitrarily decided that Microsoft was behaving badly and that Netscape was still better as an email client. It was also available for all platforms we supported at the time ( SGI Irix, Mac OS and Windows flavors). Microsoft IE was not available on any Unix platforms. Hence useless.
Why did I feel Netscape (and then Mozilla) was better than IE as a mail client? It had better performance with a Unix IMAP server. IE wanted badly to work with Exchange, so badly it was a royal pain to set it up with IMAP, kept losing lock on the mailbox. Microsoft has had, and still has a tendency to supplant agreed standards with Microsoft proprietary methods ( which they call de facto standards, and which are non-standards), It was a great disappointment to me that Netscape tried the same BS for a while, but once Mozilla became open, standards compliance came around ( though MS seems to be better too)
The sell was easy because my boss loves Macs - he likes IE but wasn't going to force the issue.
So the summary is : we picked Mozilla over IE because we started on Netscape, We run unix for mail systems, we're fans of open source, our boss likes Macs and hates PCs, Netscape/Mozilla offered the promise of better standards compliance, support for more Operating Systems, and we're lazy!
I have nothing to hide. So, why are you spying on me?
We are a local retal/class B wholesale alcoholic beverage company. ($100 million+ company) The default mail client that we install is either Mozilla and/or Netscape. Netscape is installed for those that *want* the extra clutter. Because of the CEO, everyone has the option to choose Outlook. (thats all he will used no matter what we tell him about it) We usually argue with anyone requesting it until they give in, but if they refuse, we have no choice but allow them to use Outlook. Personally, I wouldn't mine anyone using Outlook at all if it wasn't for the the virus issues involved with it. It's not that bad of an email client with all it's tools.
Official standards may have changed since I worked there in 1998, but I doubt if the culture has changed. Which worked like this: we had a choice of two desktop environments Open Look and CDE. Most old Sun hands used Open Look, but IS was trying to end-of-life it, mainly because they didn't want to support mail clients that directly access the mailbox file, as all the Open Look clients do. Open Look users were fighting this change tooth-and-nail.
When I started, I was told to use the IMAP client that's built into CDE. Which was probably as close to a "standard client" as anything that was then in use. It was only after I got sick of the limitations of this program (especially its lack of directory support) that I switched to the Netscape IMAP client all on my own.
Isn't that what RMS uses?
A couple of years ago, the standard browser at GM HQ was some particularly hideous 4.x version of Netscape.
Watching Cowboy Bebop in my jammies, eating a bowl of Shreddies.
1. Normalised and no nullity.
If you think the answer is zero, or that commercial software is any better you would be mistaken. The only difference between Mozilla and other software is you can read the bugs and therefore gauge the risk and even produce workarounds if necessary. With commercial software bug reports disappear into a black hole - they might be fixed or they might not but you'll never know until an update appears and you can try to replicate the problem.
I work for HSBC Bank and in the department I work in we use "IBM Browser" which is a crippled Mozilla. (Seen from about:config) We have over 400 machines in the building.
For myself, and AFAIK everyone else at my office IE works quickly, never crashes, works with almost all web pages and comes with Windows.
Software updates are handled automatically by windows update.
Aside from OSS idealism, there is absolutely no reason to go out of our way to use anything else.
I wanted to install Moz 1.4 this summer on all the staff workstations in my school district (I'm the tech director). Unfortunately, Mozilla doesn't lend itself well to .MSI packaging for automated distribution. I might try again later in the fall, but visiting 300 workstations manually to install it isn't viable right now. A workaround for this would be really nice.
I've worked for 4 companies in 3 years ;) and 3 of them had standardised on Netscape (i.e. 4.x). Most of the "geeks" (yeah :-> ) don't know about Mozilla, and they'll only settle for Netscape 6/7. So NS4 is pretty much still the standard (no pun) in many places I know. MS Outlook is a strict no-no, except for the bosses (of course, the PHB boxen can't catch no viriiiii, coz they've got the latest NAV!!!).
There is nothing that Mozilla, Thunderbird, or whatever you want to call it can do better than Webmail. If you aren't using webmail by now you're a moron. I guess you could be like my last employer who made money every time someone had a problem with their Netscape mail. That was a rich fucking scheme.
I've recently standardized our company on Mozilla mail using IMAP access. I went through deploying Mozilla 1.3.1 and now 1.4 to about 50 users on various Windows machines. We previously were using Eudora and POP3 access.
Here are some of our motivating factors to switch to a Mozilla/IMAP solution include:
Overall, Mozilla's been accepted as "much better than Eudora", however I still get the occasional user which feels that the change only made things worse. And of course, there are those who long for the usability of Outlook. We kindly remind them that Outlook is evil and using Mozilla helps keep us worm free. Yes - we virus scan and sanitize (Anomy Sanitizer) our mail before delivery, but nothing's perfect.
Now for the gripes:
Our ultimate goal, as some have mentioned, is to embrace Thunderbird, since some users still want to use IE as their browser (mostly for site compatability reasons), and to have their email links launch in their browser of choice. That, and it not nearly as "bloated" as the entire Mozilla suite, especially since most of my users are only using the email component.
$ man woman *
-bash:
comprised of just IE users - about 96% anyway.
Nobody cares about the last four percent...
I use Opera, myself. Who cares?
Besides, this is about mail clients. Most people use Outlook or Outlook Express. I use Eudora. When I switch to Linux, I'll probably use Evolution. Who cares? Corporations will use Microsoft until Windows is overthrown on the server and the desktop - period.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
... I'm going to suggest a commercial product; Opera. Opera has a volume licensing program that may bring licenses down to $1 or below per license. Read more about the Opera Higher Education Program.
M2, the Opera mail client, makes a lot of sense, both from a users perspective, and from the sysadmin perspective, since the user threshold is fairly low: The notion of Access Points means that users mostly will not have to micro-manage their mail - they won't have to learn how to set up filters, since the mail client filters intellegently enough for 99% of users, and support staff won't have to spend hours on end to teach people how to use their mail client.
From a system administrators point of view, Opera also makes a lot of sense, since Opera and M2 is available on multiple platforms, and all mail and settings can be shared between Linux/Windows installations (and other platforms as well, as they become available).
http://virtuelvis.com/
It could be the sign of a larger, unnoticed bug. Also, all those steps may not be necessary, it may just be one of many paths to the same bug.
In my company, as part for the win2k role out the default browser and mail client is mozilla. Currently about half the company have switched, which has helped a lot with imap support (outlook express[1] just sucked with imap).
:-(
We have squirrelmail for remote mail around the company, rather than roaming profiles. Plus we make heavy use of ldap for the single username/password for mail/cvs/intranet account(s).
It's great been able to add a new account to the ldap server and have it instantly avaiable in the address books. Spam filtering is used in mozilla, we use server side spam filtering as well[2]. Works well, however most people don't really notice, until the popups come back when using IE, etc,etc.
Plus the benefit of not using MS virus transport system, has helped reduce our virus alerts.
One day I might if get everyone to bottom reply
[1] Previous default
[2] Debian + postfix
[3] I'm head of the unix team.
"What organizations out there are rolling out Mozilla as their standard web and/or email client...?"
None that matter.
I use Windows 2000 and RedHat 9 equally. IE never crashes, but Galeon does all the time. I can't count the number of times I've had to click "Restore last session". Of course, some of those might be Galeon itself, but most of them are Mozilla (which I'm informed of after submitting a bug report).
As long as developers fail to test their pages with anything but ie, you are probably going to want to have ie around.
I use Mozilla now (thanks to popups), but find I still use ie three or four times a day for browsing sites that don't accept Mozilla, don't render right, or just plain act weird.
I realize 99% of us geeks already use it.
/s
Are you exaggerating for fun and effect or do you really think that? I know some geeks who use it, but know more who use mutt, Ximian Evolution, Apple Mail, nmh, exmh, SquirrelMail and a few others but hardly 99%, I don't even think 50%. That's the joy of being a geek, you use what ever you like the most, not what you preserve the majority use.
We encourage all our faculty / staff to use Mozilla; although some of them still demand Eudora. We've completely eliminated Outlook (and Express) from our deployed machines.
...but I am joining the IT department of a large missionary radio organization (several hundred desktops in several countries) and we are definitely moving in that direction.
The U of C uses Mozilla as a standard, since it works on all (most?) of the platforms found on campus. They also support IE, but Mozilla is preffered.
When someone might yell at me, it has to be OpenBSD.
While I use Mozilla for email, I have only one regret -- Mozilla's handling of IMAP accounts, which is what my college provides. The behavior is particularly annoying, since upon deleting a message from the IMAP server it does not expunge the account. (Outlook Express provides such a button, and Ximian Evolution provides a button and a handy keyboard shortcut.) Mozilla does provide a way to expunge; it's called "Compact This Folder" when you right-click on an IMAP folder. While it works, it's not the best in usability. For what it's worth, though, Mozilla is my client of choice on Windows.
How? How do you know?
So yes, Sun has 40,000 employees still using the broken, non-standards-compliant Netscape 4.7 as their primary browser
More name calling, how sad. It's no substitute for facts. What "standards" are you refering to? The only fact that you have graced us with is that Sun uses Netscape and has many employees.
What do you expect them to use, IE?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Hmm - I did the opposite - I switched to Eudora three years ago and haven't looked back. It is the most stable Email client that I know of and utilizes standards compliant protocols for accessing email (correct me if I am wrong here)
I use Mozilla as my browser and Eudora 5.2.1 (can't wait for 6.0 to come out of Beta - built in spam filtering!!!) and have never had a single crash. Plus for those that need IMAP and LDAP - it has it.
Wish I could say the same for IE/Outlook...
UncleCliffy
We distribute Mozilla as the browser on our Internet Tools CD. As for E-mail, this is the last year we'll be distributing our site-licensed version of Eudora. After this year, we'll be moving to support built-in E-mail clients (Outlook Express in Windows and Mail on Mac OS X). Quite frankly, that's fine by me. Supporting Eudora on Mac has been a nightmare because the thing is such an incredible piece of shit, but I feel badly for those Windows users who will suddenly become more virus-prone from using Outlook Express. But I digress.
:)
Anyway, we distribute Internet Explorer as a Package Extra (not in the default install) for both Mac OS and Windows. Netscape is pretty much the default on all our lab machines. Of course, a lot of the guys who work here are into Linux, so I guess that's what you get.
I'm being lazy but not vigilantly googling, but does the Bayesian spam filter in Mozilla Mail work with IMAP accounts? Is there a spam filter addin for Outlook? (Preferably free and one that works with IMAP?)
Random is the New Order.
most public M$ compooters get wiped clean everyday. It's the only way to fight macroviruses, gator and the like. This would have eliminated your Phoenix install's links and preference settings if not Phoenix itself. The trouble people go through to "support" microsoft is mind boggling.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
How do I convince my boss that the pointy hair guy is not the hero of the strip?
Become self-employed?
---------------------------------------------
SERENITY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I duno what version of IE you are useing. When IE stops responding and you ahve to close it ALL versions of explorer get closed.
Back in '98 the instructions Yale freshman received for checking email was to login to one of the mail servers (ssh or telnet) and run pine.
At my current company, our system administrator enforces a no IE policy. Too much of his time was spent applying security patches. For a short time he strictly enforced this via our http proxy not allowing IE, but our CEO *needed* to be able to use IE for some site that was laiden with MS specific MSHTML.
... well, sort of. Does Netscape 6 count? :)
if you want "No More Hiroshimas" then I say "You First. No More Pearl Harbors."
We, a 150+ company in Zwolle (The Netherlands). We have a strict non IE/OUTLOOK policy. Mozilla for email and pegasus mail for the mail.
Why not let Mozilla have it? Most "work" machines in cubeland don't have anything but paint and IE anyway. People savy enough to have a real paint program will have enough sense to have put it into the "send to" directory to thwart all those kinds of M$ registry problems to begin with. Heck, without Mozilla, most M$ users can't view half the world's image formats anyway, especially pgn. Is there some kind of change in the M$ hell world I've missed in my last year or two in the land of the free?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I know, intellectually, that people tend to assume that other people are like them more than is actually true.
However, the idea that 99% of geeks would use Mozilla for email is a truly stunning one. Of the geeks I know, a grand total of 0 use Mozilla for email. Geeks use mail programs for mail, and web browsers for browsing.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
IE is not so good as you think. IE can crash many ways. it depends how you are "created" new window, in XP or 2000 there might be some settings, but in default if you use ctrl-N then all windows crashes which are started from same process.
When IE crashes it may take down all Explores whit it. Then Windows try restart Explore and it allways happend so succesfully.
In worst case IE blows down whole OS.
then it feels like sucking Mr Gates Balls (Feels not so good)
Does mutt support roles, like in pine (or arbitrary From: header spoofing?) That's something I love about pine that neither MozMail or Evolution can deal with. I use one-time email addresses in web forms (like thisisasillycomment@simra.net) to keep tabs on where spammers get my address, but when I want to reply to legit mail I want to be able to set my email address manually.
:-)
Short of 'telnet mailhost 22', or clumsily creating new mail folders for every onetime address, I don't know many mail readers that let me manipulate my headers. (See, there ARE legit reasons for changing From and Reply-To headers.
So long, and thanks for all the Phish
I'll second that. It usually takes all my IE windows down with it.
When I say "who" I mean organizationally, as I realize 99% of us geeks already use it.
I use safari and IE.
Word on that.
My place of work has IE only on their woeful network (we are a separate department of Macs cut off from the network).
I had to look up some song lyrics for one of the staff here and I had forgotten just how bad pop ups are, especially the hateful "open new window on close" ones.
I guess I've been spoiled by Mozilla/Camino/Safari on my machine.
Yeah, that's typical big company cluelessness. These are the same companies that were late into the PC world to begin with. They will react sooner or later and jump into free software when it's painfully obvious how much money they are lossing on all of M$'s non-standard, lockin crap. Chances are two or three CIOs will get fired for suggesting it before some "proactive" thinker gets it done.
Frontpage, I'm sorry to hear it.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I told him Mozilla was immune to all of the ActiveX datamining/privacy invasion crap out there. Factor in pop-up control and the fact Mozilla is more standards compliant and he was sold.
(One such site I ran into whilst testing something re-directs you to Microsoft.com after which the "install this active-x control" dialog pops up-- obviously trying to trick users into thinking it was a Microsoft sourced control.)
Getting flash for mozilla is easy now because Macromedia installer recognizes Mozilla and will install its plugin for it. I think the Sun java one does too, but it's been a while so I don't remember.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
Why do people assume that if they use a web browser for email, so does everyone else?
I don't want HTML in email. I don't want to use monolithic programs. I want a mail client that works even if the browser should crash (or not exist, for that matter). I want to be able to access my mail even when I have no GUI available.
mbox format and any mbox-compliant mail client will do that for me. In a pinch, I can even use cat/tail to read mail and telnet or pipe to a mail server to send mail.
I'm sure there's someone out there that uses cat as the editor and send it with uucp too.
Anyhow, we were discussing geeks here, and I say it's a sorry excuse for a geek who doesn't understand the difference between web and email, and allows the potential security risks of parsing incoming email.
AOL users and corporate drones, sure, but are *geeks* like that now? Or has the bar been lowered for being a geek?
Regards,
--
*Art
Whats the deal with good softeware like mozilla (and all the bad software too) avoiding one of the greatest unused tools on the internet... DNS SRV records!
DNS has such great potential. It's been supported since BIND 4.x. Yes NO (yes, not one, not even the small guys) have given SRV records a try. Is there something bad about SRV that I don't see? Its incredible as far as I can tell!
-t
Places where Outlook are regarded as "capable":
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
there was a link to a free outlook one posted as a comment on slashdot sometime over the last couple of weeks.... i think outlook 2003 does/will support bayesian filtering out of the box
I agree with you. I have used mozilla phoenix/firebird for several months now and have found it very reliable. I use IE at the exact same time because my organization has standardized on it and I cant avoid using it for some tasks. Using both constantly it is crystal clear that Mozilla is easier to use, and probably a lot easier to support.
The Ro Factor - Jeep/Linux Weblog
Follow these instructions EXACTLY: Open yer version of mozilla open up UT2003 in windowed mode Start converting a DIVX into MPEG2 format Burn a copy of Windows XP Start dictating a document using MS voice-recognition start running a 64-client Battlefield 1942 server process ... mozilla should now crash with the talkback window
... with a little more time, and a six-leaf clover..
No one.
I don't know of a single organisation who has defined Mozmail as the "standard." In fact, amongst organisations who use mozilla constantly, I know of very few who are even aware that Mozilla has a mail client.
Organisations tend to dictate that we use the "standard, (hah!)" exchange/Outbreak. In the rare cases where that isn't true, most people use whatever the hell they want.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
The number-one thing mozilla CAN use is geeks testing all the features and filing bugs. I like Moz because I can access my mail from my windows profile and my Linux profile, I can't find another email client that will let me do that.
Amen. I've been migrating the same mail folders from Netscape 4.x, through Netscape 6.x, through Moz 0.9.x, through Moz 1.4. Never had a problem. And the sharing between windows and linux is absolutely invaluable. Otherwise I'd always be booting back into windows to keep my mail in one place, and would never make the switch.
Enigmail is also wonderful, and PGP is unavailable in such an usuable form for any other client I've seen.
Actually, real geeks use fetchmail and "less".
Mutt, Evolution, Balsa, Netscape Mail, and Outlook express are for sissies.
find that a big draw for Outlook would be it's well designed UI (seriously, it's about the only thing it's good for! :) and the lock-in you get with MS Exchange, but the huge drawback being the fact that it is so easily comprimised by viruses and worms and whatnot.
:(
Sadly most people seem to be insanely ignorant of this point, and just keep chugging along, happily flooding the internet with Klez, Bugbear, and Sobig.
Actually, there are no known auto-execute exploits in the current (default) version of Outlook. Microsoft security may suck, but they were smart enough to patch it eventually. And if the users are stupid enough to run ReallyCoolScreensaver.scr that they got in their inbox, they're screwed whatever client they use.
I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
--
"The package said 'Windows XP or better', so I installed Linux."
> Actually, real geeks use fetchmail and "less".
Fetchmail is for wimps.
Real geeks use:
telnet pop.mailhost.net 110
and like it.
You could try SpamBayes for Outlook (it supports IMAP). I've been testing it out at work and it seems to be good, but can be a little flaky at times.
As for Mozilla Mail, I'm not sure about IMAP support, but it's not beyond reason that it would work.
-Colin
if you want "No More Hiroshimas" then I say "You First. No More Pearl Harbors."
You sig is totally freaking me out! Pearl Harbor was solely a *military* target, Hiroshima was a goddamn city full of civilian people! How dare you even compare these! In every war people who have nothing to do with the war lose their lives, but Hiroshima is one of the saddest examples since the bombing's main objective was just to kill as many Japanese people as possible so Japan might be scared of further dealing with the US. Do you know what this tactic is called when civillian organizations do that? Yes, it's called terrorism. But I'm sure it can't be terrorism or mass murder if it's americans who did it, right? We are all real heroes here, right?
I don't care even if your grandmother died at Pearl because if so she was military and they knew what they signed up for. Tell those touchy little hero stories to the dead of Hiroshima, I'm sure they would be impressed. Tell your military crap to the children who died painfully of radiation sickness, clinging to the charred bodies of their parents!
(Three years at slashdot, never flamed anybody before, but I can't just ignore shit like this and I wish other people would feel the same way. Alas, I'm alone, this is the Post-9/11 world - I'm I dinosaur...)
Several of my clients companies, medium sized by NZ standards (tiny by world standards) are now standardising on Mozilla. The main reasons:
Plus, I think they all really enjoy the idea of thumbing their noses at the Microsoft bulldozer - nearly all of my clients now recognise their dependence on Microsoft, so this is an opportunity to demonstrate their disdain for the company and its practices.
Telnet? You young whipper snappers have it lucky. Back in my day we had to use an oscilloscope to read our mail. It was hard. Cryptic and we liked it that way.
Check out "SpamBayes". Their web site says they have an Outlook 2000 and XP plugin, runs IMAP, and works with Mozilla too.
I never used it, just have it bookmarked.
Back in my day we had to wire up the network to a lightbulb. The brighter it got, the stronger the signal, and the dimmer the light got, the weaker the signal. Interpreting what those light signals meant was a bitch, but it was our bitch and we liked it real good.
My company (yes, I've ranted about this before) is still using IE. I had hoped we could migrate when NTLM authentication was implemented but, unfortunately our ticketing system (Magic Service Desk if anyone is interested) barf's at Mozilla. Not sure why, yet but the software is heavily dependent on IE apparently. Sucks, and I'd be interested in hearing other Mozilla user's experiences.
I dislike Mozilla's mail client but it is slowly improving. For all it's bugs and security holes, Outlook has a lot of really nice features that Mozilla would do well to emulate. Personally, I use a healthy mix of PINE and Eudora.
A consistent complaint in this thread seems to be "Outlook isn't secure". This is silly. Besides a few bugs that had to do with scripting vulnerabilities (which are almost always traced back to IE component vulnerabilities - Outlook doesn't have its own HTML rendering engine), generally "Outlook security flaws" are viruses are activated by an ignorant user executing attachments. If the virus writers chose, they could just as easily read Mozilla's address book and email everyone in it to spread itself.
The fact that a useful tool is popular, and could potentially be used to propagate viruses if the user is a moron, does not make it insecure. Unless Mozilla encrypts its address book and does not provide any hooks to allow external applications to send mail, it is just as vulnerable as Outlook.
That being said, I personally dislike Outlook, but that doesn't justify unfounded accusations against it.
-j
I've noticed that because MS has integrated IE with the OS, when IE crashes it often brings down my whole system, requiring a reboot, but when Moz crashes the system is fine and I just need to reload Moz and keep going.
Personally I find IE crashes much more often than Moz, but even if they both crashed with the same frequency it's a much bigger hassle to recover from an IE crash.
Yes it does. After just a little bit of training, its getting just about all of my spam with no false postitves. There are some plugins out there for OUtlook, however I don't know if it works with IMAP.
I just like Outlook because I can do email (POP and HTTP), and have my tasks and calendar all in one. My email is perpetually open so I want all those other things in there as well to remind me to do crap, because I'm quite forgetful and hate paper calendars. I need something that will yell at me and that I'll look at EVERYDAY. I frankly don't understand how there is no complete rip-off of it's functionality out there on Windows. The HTTP mail is secondary but why is there nothing out there that has email, calendar and tasks all in one. Even just email and calendar! Mozilla mail is fine, I like the junk mail feature (except how it alerts me when I get junk mail, but it's pretty accurate once I've trained it). But I can't access my HTTP mail and I can't put things in a calendar or create a task list. I tried Ximian Evolution on my Linux box (which does the trick most definitely), but alas my Win2k box is my main box (flame away). If there is, I haven't found it. Is there?
Everybody dies frustrated and sad and that is beautiful
I work as a sysadmin at the Central Library of Budapest University of Economic Sciences and Public Administration (Hungary, Central Europe). All of the staff uses Mozilla as our MUA, 50-some people. It works quite well for us, at least we avoid the Outlook scriptviruses. :)
Free your mind!
Just IE windows? Sometimes it takes down the whole OS for me (well, it did when I regularly used windows..... :) ). Microsoft: Integrate everything so it can crash in sync!
I have moved over to Mozilla browsing and Mozilla mail on Linux from IE and Mozilla browsing and Eudora mail on w2k Pro.
On the browser, the only thing I miss from the IE days is the ability to send a link to the desktop. I sure don't miss the pop ups and I love tabs.
On the email, Mozilla is as good or better than Eudora at arranging folders and filtering. It does IMAP very well and the filters work pretty well. One thing I don't like, is when I cut and paste, if I don't put a to: address in first, the paste goes in the address box.
Baysian filters on 1.3 only partly work for me (it marks, but fail to move or delete). My manual filtering (read and then run filters to move) works great. Rearranging my mail folders is "dolt" simple. I started with Mozilla on w2k and it was nice to move the same setup over to RH9.
I used Mozilla mail to "import" my email archive from 1996 on, to my IMAP server.
I prefer Mozilla to Evolution (or Kmail). But I wouldn't mind having Evolutions v-folders. Since I use IMAP, I have Evolution set to pull the mail offline as a backup to the server. But I do all my reading and filtering in Mozilla.
I would love to be able to filter a subject to send (bounce) an email to a list of receipents, sort of a mail-list from the client thing. I have ezmlm but would like to show clients how to setup a small mail list using Mozilla. Anyone know how to do this with Mozilla, or Eudora or Outlook Express?
Again, I think the critics of Mozilla mail haven't really tried it since the Netscape 4.7 days.
I find the combination of IMAP, squirrelmail and Mozilla to be powerful and they are improving rapidly. I am starting to evangilize Mozilla's use to my customer base.
MC - Neodigita, Inc.
But everytime I enable an account, sooner or later, all of my settings mysteriously disappear (including browser settings) and I lose everything - pop/smtp settings, bookmarks, browser settings - it will appear that I just DL'ed mozilla and am running it for the first time.
Much of the stuff is still out there - mail folder directories are still there and I wrote down the steps to resurrect everything but it was a big PITA and it was just easier to use a different email application.
I've posted the bug on bugzilla but it never got any attention - I noted a few others encountered the same snafu from groups.google.com searches, but again the workaround is not very elegant and efficient. It probably isn't a mozilla problem and is the fault of WinXP (my wife's OE inserts "localhost" into the pop server and it screws up her email til I reset - it may be some other process that's clobbering - I don't know but at least Mozilla should provide some easy way for me to trick that process out...).
AZspot
How'd you get Mozilla to crash? Not trolling, I've never had any problems with MoFire v0.6 at all. That's one of the reasons I love it so much.
BTW
When IE crashes it usually takes out my entire desktop & all IE windows.
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
The Mac labs were full of Macs. Most liberal arts students (most of Columbia College) used the Mac labs exclusively.
The programming labs in the engineering school were full of IBM PC's running something with an X front-end.
The NeXT lab was full of a dozen NeXTmachines with big grayscale, display-postscript monitors and your choice of command shell underneath. Maybe you saw the NeXTmachines in the International Affairs building, upstairs from the Mac lab? The computers were black, the lab opened in 1990, there was a student purchase program for NeXTmachines - ring any bells? Optional WORM drives?
The terminal labs (in many dorms and scattered about) had DEC terminals connected to VAX systems.
All of these labs were connected to the internet. All of them. But there were no web browsers yet. It was all text-mode with Pine (I think) on a DEC VAX for email services. Everyone I knew in Engineering or the College had their own email address @columbia.edu. Maybe you just missed that boat.
Then again, you graduated. So I guess we're even.
-Don
Oddly enough, Thunderbird, looks and works, quite a bit like Outlook/Express.
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
And now anyone listening to the line has your password, since you didn't negotiate an SSL session.
Gimme a break.. what are you using, win98? I've never had an IE problem force me to reboot.
I am in the process of rolling out Mozilla Mail as the company default email client (for Windows - Apple Mail is the Mac default - Mac Mozilla Mail is sssllllooooowwww). We are moving to Mozilla after using Netscape 4.7x for the past 4 years or so. Overall, it's a really good client - although our sales people like to copy and paste from Word into emails and the formatting gets all fscked up (surprise, surprise). Unfortunately, IE is still the default Windows browser...
Salsa Shark. We're gonna need a bigger boat.
When NTI was bought by Synopsys, one of the steps in the IT transition was "deinstall Netscape 6, install Netscape 4.7"
Not that I cared, I was using Opera.
Their standard mail is Eudora if you prefer to get your mail on your PC - I get mine on Unix, since it's rather hard to cut&paste between a PC and a Solaris.
A mail sent tonight to suggestions@mozilla.org :
:
Hi,
About:me
-10 years unix experience, 5 on linux
-engineer, geek, nerd etc...
OK, so now I have to deploy moz on some (linux) worksations which where
already in moz 1.2.
My point is : I like/love mozilla, I used it for many years but from a
practical point of view (=deployment in a production environment), I's
just getting too complicated....
I was in 1.2 with the "basic" stuff : all teh plugins (flash, java,
acroread etc...) and some goodies : multizilla, optimoz (gesture)....
Damn... to replicate that in 1.4 was just a nightmare.... I spent such a
long time in my test environement that I WON'T replicate in the prod
envrionnement. My lambda users are going to stay in 1.2...
Too bad, I really love moz but it's just getting to time consuming/risky
to install the new releases in prod envt.
Anyway, thanks for the great job !
M.
We run Netscape mail servers and almost everyone uses Netscape 4.7 as their mail client and browser. Although recently we started supporting Outlook as well. I am one of the few that uses Mozilla, but the company hasn't decided to switch to the new Netscape yet.
Here's a question for someone who knows their LDAP stuff though: Why is it that when I use Netscape 4.7 and double-click someone in our online address book, I can see all kinds of info about them, in particular their UID and Mailhost, but when I use Mozilla, I just get their basic address card info?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I'll have the finance guys get right on that, because that's what most people in companies do. They sit around, pop open the source code for software, and start analyzing to assess risk when they hear of a bug. This is good for a small portion of the population, but in companies?
Most companies lock their machines down - users can't install software on them and also don't upgrade the software on boxes for every single update. Why? Standardization and time. When you have 20 employees this is no big deal, but when you have a couple thousand, it's an even bigger deal. It's not realistic to say that people just pop open the source and try to fix it when they are an employee. Even if you work in the IT group, do you really think it's feasible that a company will diverge from a supported path because of a assessment in their IT group?
You need to be realistic about the benefits of that. The benefits are extended to smaller shops, individuals, and the hobbyists, but not to any decent-sized company. The cost is too high...
What are all these mozilla/outlook/etc apps anyway ? :)
The school I attend, University of Minnesota Duluth uses Mozilla and Netscape 7 as the exclusive web browsers on our nearly 300 SunRay thin-clients. Some patches applied to the servers earlier this year caused IE to stop working and M$ will not (of course!) give us any support for IE on unix. We use a product called Mulberry (imap client) for our email.
My company has developed two service applications on Mozilla. One is 250k lines and the other is 70k lines. The first one is a generic management tool: people, accounts, invoicing, etc. The second one is a court-case tracker for lawyer offices for a certain type of case.
Both were entirely written in XUL, JS, XPCOM and seem like something made in Delphi or PowerBuilder, but with complete (single xpi) portability.
The process was very slow and painstaking, but Mozilla is THE platform for client software, and now that we developed the know-how we are certain we made the right decision.
With excellent portability (one XPI fits all), VERY LOW bandwidth requirements, automatic updating, Mozilla is a very robust platform for providing services which are not well suited for HTML.
Email? It is just one part of the overall goodies.
BTW, our company has a strong expertise in J2EE so a universal Java client would not have been difficult for us. We find the Mozilla Platform a much better universal client platform. Teamed with J2EE on the server, you should have seen those raised eyebrows during our presentations.
I have never had any of these problems. I am using Windows 2000, IE 6, both fully updated. I have the Macromedia stuff installed and maybe a couple other plugins.
I don't know what you people are doing.
BTW Don't use File->New Window, click on the shortcut.
"How do you know?"
I worked at Sun until May 2002. I have many friends who still work there whom I speak to daily. I often ask them about Netscape 4.7. I've long since dropped support for it on my own websites, but I'm hoping that the last few remaining holdouts will finally leave it.
If you still don't think I'm for real, ask any Sun employee what "dtmail" is. They will know exactly what you are talking about. Most of them will then go on a rant about it, just like I used to when I worked there.
"What 'standards' are you refering [sp] to?"
How about CSS1? Or nested tables? Or really, any standards-compliant markup? Don't even get me started on CSS2 or any moderately-complex CSS1 markup. My websites all validate to XHTML 1.0, but they don't work in Netscape 4. If you seriously believe that Netscape 4 works with web standards, I invite you to Google Netscape 4 sucks and read the many, MANY articles posted by infuriated web developers.
Personally, I use Mozilla, and it's great as far as standards-compliance goes. Netscape 6 is decent and Netscape 7 and 7.1 are fine. NS4, on the other hand, is a complete joke and a waste of time to develop for. It needs to disappear once and for all.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
I tried to print something.
No kidding.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
I think Mozilla's really mostly a developers' browser.
Yes, it's very standards compliant but that covers most of the positive things you can say about it.
It's so standards compliant that some sites appear broken or not at all in it.
It's so slow that I avoid using it. For instance try typing in a text area. A minute or two after you typed a line it has fully appeared.
I use kde and konqueror usually does it for me, although it also has its drawbacks such as the jumping way in which it builds up a html page.
This is true, IE at least gives you the option. I always click on the taskbar shortcut, so I never have this problem.
I have never had IE bring down the OS. I'm guessing that you people are using the Windows 95 derivatives?
At Rutgers University (in New Jersey), the standard is Netscape 7 for www browser and mail. In fact, the only reason that IE is on the computer in the labs is because you can remove the damn thing. Oh yeah, outlook is nowhere to be seen.
try XP
Mozilla-mail, for me, would crash and a result of this would be a corrupted Inbox. This started becoming a regular thing (I believe it was Mozilla 1.3 and all mail was stored locally because I used pop3 to retrieve my mail.) and I had to switch to something a little more stable. Ive used Kmail for about a year, upgraded it 3 times, and never lost an email. Alot has happened to Mozilla since then but I would strongly advise using a test group of power users before deploying it just to check its stability.
Now consider the same in Mozilla. Mozilla crashes, you don't know why blah blah. Your first port of call is Bugzilla and best case you find the bug is already logged. Reading through the comments you learn of a trivial to workaround (e.g. disable a pref). Better yet someone has already produced a patch so you roll your own version of Moz and apply it or wait for the next and reasonably frequent milestone releases. Problem solved. If there is no bug, log one, track it, ask the community for help. If you get no response, pay whoever it might be Sun, Red Hat, Netscape / AOL $$$ to fix it.
So worst case you're no more out of pocket than you were with MS. Best case you get fast and free support, a detailed description of the issue and progress updates as it is worked on.
But there is a problem with how it saves passwords. When it saves it saves server wide instead of on just that page. I work for an isp and when people try to save their password to sign into the admin page it tries to put that password into all the users that are updated or added to the following pages. If you can get it to ask weather to save on a per page basis it might be useful for my company.
I use mozilla mail for multiple accounts, IMAP and POP3, and NNTP. I use the baysean spam filter, as well as sorting by subject, sender, priority, etc. It imports and exports well. The interface is very productive. It's the best GUI client out there except for one thing... How do you disable HTML rendering, or refuse to download images by default?
Don't know is NS will work with this, but it works like a charm in Mozilla - one-click access to turning on/off images, popups, javascript - whatever:
http://www.xulplanet.com/downloads/prefbar/
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
At chandler/gilbert community college in arizona, all of the computers that are available for student use are configured with netscape 7.
we developers work mostly under linux, the office staff with windows. except for one sales person who likes synchronizing his pda with outlook just too much, we are very happy with mozilla as a mailclient for accessing our imap mailserver. we use it additionally for accessing our central address database in ldap (just read-only though), just hope the mozilla guys will get their own ldap scheme someday with more supported attributes. i can't tell you much about centralized deployment as we are a rather small shop (15 people).
most of our users under windows use mozilla even for surfing as it renders faster than IE. but the real IE-killers for them were the password manager (they hate repeatedly typing ebay logins) and for some the ad suppression. firebird is even better, but right now it is just me using it.
one thing everyone hates though is that you cannot display the recipient in the sent-folder, no real help seeing the sender - doh. alltogether a very good job by the mozilla people and you won't regret migrating from IE.
Since August 2002, Drew has been using Mozilla as its supported IMAP mail client. It is distributed with all student laptops, lab computers, and fac/staff desktops. Previous to that, we used Netscape 4.7.
Bank of Montreal (one of the major Canadian banks) uses Netscape internally, I believe version 4.7 or so.
I did tech support there for a while, it was awful.
When I starting doing webdevelopment about 3.5 years ago, my and my colleagues were writing pages for Arizona State's College of Business. They're all about Microsoft so we were designing web applications for them on IE. I worked there for 2 years and by the end of it, I knew the IE DOM like the ingredients on cheetos... So I can make pretty nifty pages in IE, but the really sad thing is (of course) they never show up on mozilla or netscape. I've been trying to read up on the mozilla dom when I get time. I hope mozilla can incorporate some of IE's filters and such... could something like this be standardized? Whenever I try to stick to CSS standards, the pages never come out right on IE. So I will have to use some work arounds... IE has some pretty neat stuff but unfortunately, none of it is STANDARD!
Vivin Suresh Paliath
http://vivin.net
I like
My Mom has been using Mozilla for all email and web browsing for over 2 years now and she loves it, it's perfect for her. Entirely not computer savvy, she is still able to maninpulate mail folders and print and yaddayaddayadda. On an entertaining note, it took a while for me to explain to her why other people were being crippled with virii (lots in my family) and she was not... If my Mom can use it daily, without fail or lost email, it's a solid app.
Once I upgrade her hardware (she's dragging her feet, the 350 k6-2 is still ok) I'll move her from WindowMaker to KDE 3. No offense WindowMaker - you rock! - but she needs KDE.
The heat from below can burn your eyes out
It's probably one of his hardware drivers. If people would start buying decent systems with ECC memory and stuff, then they would see a lot less crashes.
But instead people buy el-cheapo PCs and then bitch at Microsoft when it crashes (when in fact it's probably the driver which is bad).
We use Mozilla as the standard browser/email app at DreamWorks. (Those pesky Windows users are still stuck with Outlook for scheduling and such, though).
What the guy was trying to say about IEAK is that the IEAK doesn't just allow you to customize IE for youself on your own computer, but to create a setup that you wan to push throughout your organization. So you can customize the version for a certain group and then install it quickly and simply on there comps.
Or let's extend this to a large company, say 60,000 employees. You build new Windows computers from a standard build hosted on the network... just like Linux. You get some access to the source code for Windows and IE so you can make your own changes... just like Linux and Mozilla. You can blast the new updates out to all the computers in the company... just like Linux (there are ways, I've seen it :)).
:) Guess who wins on the bottem line in the end?
Now that we know you can do they same with Linux and Windows, let's look at the specific problem of a Mozilla bug and an IE bug.
You get an IE bug that causes all the IEs in the company to not reach your Payroll system, making it unable to submit timecards. So you open up the IE code and start to work at tracking down the problem. Since it's your own build, you don't have much support except some from MS, but they handed you the code because you paid $$$$$$$$$$ and were told you are on your own. After many many days (or weeks), the bug is solved, the patch is pushed out, and everything is rosy.
Same thing with Mozilla now. First thing you do is check bugzilla and see if the bug is already known. If it is, and their is a work about, and even code!, roll the change up and push out the update. If the bug is not solved, or is not known, add a new entry or add to the existing one with what you know. Then site down to solve the problem much like you did for IE. Expect that you have the IT staff + the mozilla community working on it, not just he IT staff. If someone else figures out the solution, roll it up and patch. If you figure it out, post the solution so no one else has to go through what you just did, roll in up and patch.
The worst case for both IE and Mozilla is that you have to spend a significant amount of time diving through code solving the problem. The best case for IE is that it doesn't take long to find the bug. The best case for Mozilla is that the solution was already on the web, and the entire thing just takes a day to get EVERYONE working again. Now factor into the picture cost. For the MS path, you have to pay MS for the code which is very expensive. For the Linux/Mozilla path, the code is free
Space for rent, inquire within
I'm trying to find out who is using Mozilla for their email. When I say "who" I mean organizationally, as I realize 99% of us geeks already use it.
This is 100% wrong and I don't understand why nobody wrote it yet. If 99% geeks use Mozilla for mail, then who uses Mutt, Pine, or Evolution? Mainstream people?
Oh, please. These same systems work perfectly well with Mozilla et al on Windows, or with Linux. I've witnessed this personally. MSIE is a load of crap with the capability to bring down the entire operating system, and Microsoft has next to zero incentive to make it otherwise.
The only thing I can possibly grant you is that in Windows, drivers are generally written by the hardware manufacturer, as opposed to maintained by people who care about how well they work after the sale has been made. But then again, that's really a point for Linux, isn't it?
Plain ol' IE is right. It's plain and old. You have no idea how funny it is for me to catch myself trying to use mouse gestures or tabbed browsing when I use someone elses computer. At one time I was just like you. I didn't care about some alternate browser, especially when IE 5 was so much more stable than any version of Netscape or Opera that I had tried. You seriously need to give Mozilla a try. I recommend the Lo-Fi or IE skin, with mouse gestures installed and tabbed browsing turned on. It will seem a lot like IE, but better. Believe me.
ps - IT people are not always geeks...
Can't say I've noticed the same. I've been using XP since a month after it came out and while IE does crash every once in awhile, I can't remember it bringing down the entire system. It simply brings up a dailog asking me if I'd like to report the crash to Microsoft, I say no, and start up IE and I'm on my way. As a matter of fact I can't think of more than 1 or 2 times I've had to reboot XP due to a crash - it's just a not a common occurance.
XP and IE are very stable. I can only guess the majority of people complaining about Windows either mean Windows 9x or perhaps they don't use Windows at all and have simply read, "Windowz Suxors, It's always crashing!" so many times on Slashdot they assume it's true.
In fact our sales team did not have any problems with using RH9 with Evolution as email, Mozilla as browser and OpenOffice for productivity apps. A few people also prefer using Mozilla for their email client also.
With Flash 6 plugin also available, we had no issues and bookmarks is more intuitive than "Favourites". The best thing is of course the fact that we never worry about viruses
two = "XP and IE are very stable."
if (one && two) parallel_universe();
IE is so much easier in every way.
Insert the following LINE into an html file and open it in IE:
<input type text>
I have IE 6.0.2600.0000, and this single line will crash IE producing the MS "talkback" dialog. I don't have to even load a java class file to produce the same type of behaviour. So obviously IE is superior!!!!
LOL
My recommendation was weak not due to dislike, but simply because I didn't have a lot of experience with Mozilla mail so I didn't know where it falls on the sucks-to-rules scale. But I figured it would probably work "good enough" so I gave it to them and yes, it worked.
If I didn't know Mozilla was good, why did I give it to them? Pretty much just to avoid having to spend time on research. I know there are very likely some good mail clients for Windows, but I don't know what they are, and didn't want to spend a lot of time evaluating software. So I was looking for an easy way out.
Another easy way out would have been MS Outlook since I think the machines in question probably had it preloaded. But most of our email comes from The Internet, so obviously that would be a stupid choice. If a worm/virus/trojan comes in here, it won't matter what "dumb user"'s fault it is, it'll be my mess to clean up. Just because I didn't want to spend a lot of time on research, doesn't mean I could just be completely irresponsible.
Yet another easy way out would be to use a Windows port of Sylpheed, since I know Sylpheed pretty well (and I actually like Sylpheed except for it's seemingly single-threaded nature). But the day (hour?) I was working on this, all I found was one port of Sylpheed-Claws (the bleeding edge version of Sylpheed) and it was very crashy. So I gave up on that right away (remember: I was looking for easy way out).
By picking Mozilla, I didn't have to spend time researching it, and I was able to go on to the next project. If it turns out to be inadequate for some reason, then I guess I'll have to spend more time looking. Perhaps saying we're "standardized" on Mozilla would be an overstatement. We're "standardized" on IMAP and SMTP, which is how things should be. [pedant mode on] Those are standards, Mozilla is just an implementation.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
VCU (www.vcu.edu) has Mozilla on the public computers for everyone to use. Specific department labs may be different, but the general University uses Mozilla.
Perhaps someone who doesn't have the time or experience to make Mozilla work should not be deploying a browser over an entire ISP or corporation. Just a thought.
Use pine, you wuss.
Mozilla is standard on all campus machines at MIT (currently 1.3.1 i think). The campus officially supports netscape 7.02 (mozilla based) for windows machines. Eudora is the official email client however (though many offices on campus use the netscape mail option as well, which is partially supported)
All 1000+ workstations (HPUX, Windows, and Linux) at BYU's College of Engineering use Mozilla. The Windows boxes still have IE on them, but we had it turned off for a while (gotta love Active Directory profiles that let you cripple IE) to encourage users to switch over. A vocal few complained, but it was mostly because they had been brainwashed with MS FUD and hadn't even tried Mozilla.
http://www.usask.ca
Mozilla is the standard in most of the labs. The only ones that don't have moz are the really old machines, which use Netscape 4.something.
Yes. Several, it seems, given your frequent, ill-informed, anti-Microsoft posts on Slashdot recently.
You do know that XP can show folders containing images as thumbnails, right? Even showing a collection of mini-thumbnails for other folders containing images within them? And that you get a picture viewer app that can show those images at full size, arrange to print a collection of them, etc? And that even Windows Paint can do PNG?
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
The big problem with IE isn't that by default it's got an icon on the desktop or Start menu. It's that underlying parts of the OS -- the help system, for example, or Windows Update -- rely on it being present. For a while, installing a new version of IE was also the only way to get updated "common" controls required by some applications, although all recent versions of Windows include these as standard. And because of its rather bizarre links to the OS, taking out IE can take out a whole system on a bad day. Unfortunately, just removing the iconic links to iexplore.exe doesn't fix any of this, which is why it annoys so many people.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
You should have been running IE in it's own process then. Doom on you, etc.
Not Meta-modding due to apathy.
And then, once it's working fine, you roll it out, if it breaks you rebuild the machine. This is the reality of enterprise IT. No mess, no fuss.
Not Meta-modding due to apathy.
All of MIT's student workstations in our Athena computer clusters run Mozilla
I browsed ebay. It crashed. I browsed ebay again. It crashed again. No kidding.
Insightful: 76, Off-Topic: 379, Flamebait: 24, Funny: 152, Interesting: 201, Underrated: 55, Troll: 9, Total: 896
Around 25 users in a small shop.
But users in general don't like it. Sales and design people often shouting around "outlook, ie!"..
Can anyone offer advice on the which is the better upgrade: Mozilla 1.4 or Netscape 7.1?
- Are they basically the same under the skin? Is one a superset of the other?
- Can either be configured to have all the useful features of both? Does either have any non-removable "you really don't want that" features? (AOL Instant Messenger? Instantly removed!)
Thanks!
Linux or Windows?
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
I would be interested to know how companies which have standardized on Mozilla get updates to thier windows machines assuming they have them. I have 100% eliminated iexplore.exe from my XP machine, and now it bitches every now and then. I'm behind a firewall with my other machines, but I need this one to do development for some clients.
I can download service packs, but does anyone know where I can download updates? Microsoft's site keeps telling me it requires ActiveX, but I just need the files. I don't need any junk on my machine trying to reactivate itself. Do you just wait for service packs to include the previous fixes? Can you download the files from someone elses machine?
"Why standardize?"
You sir, are truly a moron. You act like an end user and not an IT person. Yeah, try your philosophy in 5000+ user environment. You must be still on school. Wait until you get into the real world. Hopefully you will be a little more wiser by then.
How about cat - > /var/spool/mail/$DESTUSER?
You forgot to mention, this only happens with 16 MB RAM.
"I haven't lost my mind -- it's just backed up on tape somewhere."
For the longest time I would get random crashes on Mozilla/Windows when I opened several tabs and loaded eBay pages. Several times I've almost filed a bug, but I could never narrow it down to anything I thought would be useful.
The public library where I work has standardised on Mozilla (or in
some cases Netscape 7) as the web browser for all of our computers
that have a GUI. (The VMS system is strictly dumb-terminal stuff,
so no graphical browser there.)
However, we have *not* standardised on Mozilla for mail. It does
not provide the features some of our staff want. Several of our
staff are using it, but just as many are using Pegasus Mail. The
only benefits to standardising on Mozilla for email are that it is
available for all major platforms and integrates with the browser.
In other ways, other mailreaders (e.g., Pegasus for Windows users)
are a good deal more powerful.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
until we were taken over by the Microsoft cabal. Now we've moved everything to some zarking MS POS-compliant software and I spend all day rebooting or restarting my machine. Funny though, I run all of the things I deem critical on Mozilla, and I never have that problem. However the decision was not made because of problems with Mozilla but because of bundled discounts for the software, you know, use ALL Microsoft software, and we'll throw in exchange and give you a break on licenses. Yeah, no collusion here, move along, nothing to see.
I'm going into my senior year at Marquette and I can tell you that I have seen things change from a no IE/Outlook policy to pro IE/Outlook. When I got here we were all told that you should have Netscape 4.x (I forget which version they were on) for web and Netscape Mail or Eudora for e-mail. Just this past fall, they converted us from the old (and suprisingly un-reliable) UNIX based e-mail system to an MS-Exchange server. In doing so they decided to start converting everyone over to Outlook 2k2 (It's now on every new machine... Come to think of it, all the new machines don't even have Netscape on them). I have also noticed that more and more people on campus are using IE 6. Anyway to make a long story short, MU has almost totally abandoned Netsape in favor of IE / Outlook. AC
Thats composed of.
Repeat after me:
A set is composed of elements
A set is comprising elements
And people who say "comprised of" are sounding like dorks.
C'mon, be nice to your latinate words, or they'll swim back to France and you'll only have Anglo-Saxon monosyllabic expletives left to express all your ideas. Imagine having to grunt your way through a technical paper using only 4-letter words -- isn't it just horrible?
--
Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/
Why stop at replacing the mozilla throbber, go to mozdev.org and get the Internet Explorer theme for mozilla to complete the look and feel.
i know some will say that this defeats the purpose of mozilla advocacy, but those that dont care about which browser they are using aren't going to care anyway.
Cheers,
Yet Socrates himself is particularly missed.
A lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed.
I still don't see why email needs scripting. I always disable all scripting for mail and there are no problems. I do think Mozilla is better behaved about obeying the user when they turn scripting off than is IE/Outlook. Also Outlook totally slaughters email. Have you ever dealt with it on a technical level? They like do tons of shit in ways that they just made up and changed but still claim to follow the standards.
:P
In any browser or email program I suggest users turn off any scripting and plugins they don't need. It'll make the experience faster, more stable, and more secure. You really don't miss a lot because of it either. Mozilla seems to be moving towards doing allow/deny of different scripting abilities on a site by site basis and I really appreciate that. I'd like to see them do the same with plugins.. such that I could allow Shockwave at Dreamworks.com but everything else have it disabled (just an example). Most scripting and plugins are used for retarded purposes anyway. Really, what is the benefit of using it for menus or animations? Those things can easily be done just as well without scripting (in most cases). What really pisses me off are people who use Javascript to open a new window for links. Dammit use normal HTML or better yet don't do it.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
is also an organisation, isn't it?
Georgetown University student labs and classrooms
Under Explorer (you know, my computer) click on Tools > Folder Options then on the View tab. In the lower list of checkboxes check off Launch Folder Windows in a Separate Process.
Also, if you are using 2000 or XP, if IE crashes and you lose your start menu and all of that shit, just open up taskmgr click on the Applications Tab, hit the New Task button and type explorer.exe that will bring everything back if Windows isn't able to do it within the first 5-10 seconds.
Hope that helps.
I work for a small but succesfull company. We sell specialized security products. From the bosses to the secretaries, it's all Macs. They all used (and swore by) Explorer, until Safari arrived. Now they all use and swore by it.
I'm the lone Windows developer here. I still use Netscape 4.7 on my workplace PC (for compatibility reasons), and Mozilla on my workplace Mac.
There's even a colleague who swears by Opera, do not like it anymore, hates Explorer, and does not even consider the possibility of using Mozilla!
I fell so lonely...
That's not true man..
If people refused to use new software because of known crash bugs, nobody would ever use any new software.
Not to mention that IE is a featureless dog that crashes more then Mozilla does.. for me anyways. Not like I do anything special either. IE has a tendency to ignore the "stop" button, it hangs up on dumb stuff, and the FTP client is terrible.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
I have not found a mail system as stable as Outlook with an Exchange server.
Outlook is a good program. Hell, all of office is pretty top-notch if you ask me. I'd buy it if they had a Linux version (Crossover Office is good but it's still not nearly as good as a native app..)
Outlook has a lot of nice features, the in-box rules are very easy to create and manage, and has more then a handful of other features that, in my opinion, set it apart from many other e-mail clients.
When coupled with an Exchange server, you get excellent seamless server-side storage of messages. IMAP can come close, but you still need local copies of your messages if you expect to do anything useful with them. Searches and such are all done on the server, eliminating network load. Many in-box rules will also run on the server-end, so even when Outlook isn't running, the rules still trigger and messages can be moved around your mailbox.
POP3 and IMAP definately have their place for internet-based e-mail services, but when it comes down to internal office e-mail, Outlook and Exchange just work better.
I'm not an advocate of Microsoft by any means, but I also don't ignore good software because of who makes it. MS Office is good, it's easy, and you can do a lot of stuff with it. OpenOffice is very good as well, no doubt about that, but MS Office is good too. And it comes with Outlook.
I'm waiting for the day when there's a Linux-Based e-mail system that's as good as the Outlook and Exchange combination. The other day there was a good discussion about Open Source alternatives to Exchange, and even with the ones that weren't free, nothing for Linux really impressed me. I think that if you need to use Linux on the backend, Lotus Domino is still the best choice.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
I bet you were the one that moved the never-out door to the other side when the toilet paper wasn't even half finished too!
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
GANT AB (the clothes store) uses mozilla for both email and surfing.
We are at present using version 1.3 on both windows and macs and I use it on their Linux and Sun servers.
The main reason: Security issues with Explorer & Outlook.
Regards Kenneth
Everyone complains that all the Outlook users are spreading virii, but that's not the only problem. A good number of virii are spread by people who download some random file off the internet and run it. This kind of attack is unbiased as to what browser you use.
-]Phreak Out[-
ever since, say, ages ago, Mozilla had the option of using quoted-printable with News and mail. not News or mail, but News and Mail. so to those of us who need Latin 1, Mozilla could be used for News or Mail, but not both.
And that's why we European geeks eschew Mozilla.
-- Rolf Lindgren, cand.psychol
Has anyone else tried "Avant Browser" for IE? (www.avantbrowser.com) It blocks pop-ups a la Mozilla, lets you browse all of your sites in one compact taskbar window and allows you to "open link in new window" by clicking with the scroll wheel! It also adds gesture functionality and adds new "maximize" and "minimize" buttons allows you to cascade or tile open explorer windows within the browser. This is just a taste of the most useful features of this fantastic add-on.
Faster to download than Mozilla and just as free!
Hopefully this will make companies realize that the Internet isn't comprised of just IE users.
Well, not quite, but the last time I looked, (which was about 9 days ago) about 95% of internet users used Internet Explorer for their web browser. While that doesn't comprise all internet users, it's close enough to make no odds.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
...so I'm not the only one who notices that IE's Stop button sometimes... doesn't? That bugged me a lot back when I used it, but nobody else I knew had that problem (or noticed it... a lot of my friends are computer-dumb).
Even with Mozilla v1.4, I still have problems printing under Windows:
p ?p roduct_code=301859&pfp=BROWSE (only one page?)
b le t_PC/4505-3122_7-20711028.html?tag=dir (first page is a waste -- big gap)
URLs for examples:
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.as
http://reviews.cnet.com/Toshiba_Port_g__3505_Ta
Thank you in advance.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
IE never crashes...
Do we live on the same planet ?!
Well when I used Galeon 1.2.x it crashed one time a month or so. Now I'm using *development* (read: not stable) version 1.3.5 it crashes 4-5 times a week, but it's very good results (for devel version). But mostly you can launch your galeon in the morning, work with huge amount of tabs and close it when you're going to bed. And it has superior feature vs. crap IE I always do `killall galeon-bin` instead of just closing it, because when I'll launch galeon next morning it'll restore my previous working session. Don't spread FUD.
Didn't he dodge Vietnam, and then go skiing in Colorado? And provide under-age girls with abortions?
I work in a medium company and my work is to deal with UI browser and mail clients:
Sorry for all the geeks but any flavor of
Netscape/moz aren't used into any major corporate
(Unless more than 50 percent of the OS used are not Win32 based)
the big player names are IBM Lotus Notes
and MS Outlook/Exchange
for the browser, IE own more 90% of the market and killed Netscape a long time ago, remember!
Don't take me wrong, it is hard to hear, but that's the truth. it seems that I hear the same music on and on Linux vs Windows for the geeks, it's a great feeling to believe tha one day, may be one day, the world will change to a geeky better world
41%. 7% of people use IE5
I don't know what you people are doing.
:)
They're browsing the web I suppose.
I work for a UK insurance intermediary and last year we rolled out 1200 Linux desktops running Mozilla 0.97 for webbrowsing only, to all users, we are about to update this to 1.2.1.As for why, we are using KDE 1.1.2 on the desktop so Konqueror was not really an option and I refuse to pay for a Web browser, so Opera was out of the question. On Windows we currently use IE put if we were ever to consider upgrading we would probably move to Mozilla .
Internet Explorer runs as a stand-alone process on Windows 2000/XP, it does not bring down the whole system when it crashes. In the worst case it brings down and automatically restarts Windows Explorer. By the way the latest version of IE (6.0sp1) is very stable, I haven't seem a single crash so far on my Windows 2003 server.
I would like to use mozilla in our company, but mozilla is not just a web browser. It contains a mail client, a calendar, and so on. Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't found a way to synchronize these applications with a phone or pda yet and to use them in a corporate way like Exchange server does.
oh geez, that settles it, ie/winblos/outlook is actually a very solid product after all.
Is the sad fact not, that whenever there is bug IE all web developers has to program around it, because the vast majority uses IE. So in fact bugs in IE becomes features. Therefore most sites will always work better with IE.
I have a setup at a small business which is divided into 3 locations where we have 15 computers all using Mozilla (2 hotels and one office). Each hotel has its own mailbox on the server and they are viewable from both places. This setup has worked extremely well with novice users and we've had very few problems.
We are rolling out a new windows desktop at the moment for the International office in Amsterdam which has both windows and open source (ie. office and open office, IE and moz) as we pilot trying to move over to linux based systems over he next year and away from windows.
We are advocating moz as the browser of choice and the excellent mozmail for its offline imap and ldap support.
The new 1.4 version is fantastic. We also like the fact we can use it on win, linux AND macs...
Oops, the first line should read
"cd mozilla_profile_directory"
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
don't need the javascript model of MSIE.
(I might use it if it was compatible)
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
zock De blur, after lo these long years, a story on /$. that is about something that matters, & lo, 700sum 'responses' of yeah butt.
lookout bullow. the daze of the phonIE payper liesense hostage ransom stock markup felons is WANing to collapps.
consult with yOUR creator. vote with yOUR wallet. that's the spirit.
get ready to witness the really big light show that's already happening all around us.
independence? from who? whose are we taking? give it back. it's not what most of US set out to do. there are consequences.
more details at trustworthycomputing.com
see also: va.gov.msn.net...working?
Regarding cost, a colleague outsourced her county's mail server to the regional telco altogether thus decreasing costs, increasing availability/reliability, and dratically decreasing client-side maintenance/support. Her previous situation was the the MS-Outlook + MS-Exchange problem you describe. Those were side benefits, the main reason to drop MS-Exchange was to get acceptible uptime and reduce the number of lost messages. The upfront costs of the outsourcing went from 7 to 3.5 per user per month. I've seen analyses showing $2 USD per user per month for FOSS solutions when serving 5000+ users, so 3.5 has to include a nice profit.
The client side benefited, too. Since end users were no longer locked into MS-Outlook, the support time for clients went down from several hours per week to less than an hour. That and outgoing/incoming external mail stopped disappearing.
Using Postfix, Exim or qmail seems to be best practice. In addition, these can be run on any platform, whereas MS-Exchange has the added drawback of being locked into a single platform.
From my observations at 4 sites, pretty much any MTA is worlds more stable and reliable than MS-Exchange. My previous employer tried to put the whole institution on MS-Exchange which was a nightmare. Among the main problems, I found that 15% of the incoming mails (to a legitimate address) during a two week test either just disappeared or bounced with a 'user does not exist'
Lost mail == delayed projects or lost bids.
That's an interesting way to phrase it, misleading yet technically correct. Perhaps a quote from the sales team? Based on what I've seen for the last 3 years, I would put a different emphasis: Yes there are idelogical reasons to go with alternatives like MS-Outlook and co, but no technical or economic ones. When performance and cost matter, it's the traditional, mainstream choices like Sendmail, Postfix, Exim, and qmail that are relevant and can run on any platform.Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
one = "1 or 2 times I've had to reboot XP due to a crash" (in about 10 months)
two = "XP and IE are very stable."
I would say those statements work very well together, since there was no mention of why XP crashed. (Buggy card driver maybe?)
if (one && two) generic_troll_post();
Ah,
you should really try the mail client that comes with opera 7 (it's called M2--but use the very latest opera as it's evolving quite fast.)
It basically puts all your emails in a database, and you can then have vritual folders based on filters(from any header), or to which you manually add messages. Automatically sorts by attachment type, mailing list etc.
Only problem is that the whole thing is not quite mature enough IMHO, but a few days with that and it's hard to come back to a normal mail client--very very well designed.
yours ever, fz.
Period.
With no freedom to thinker around your box frankly you can;t call yourslef geek.
I use Solaris, Linux, Mozilla, several PDAs and on rare occasions MS, MacOS and OS2
Those are bgraggin geek rights.
IE for geeks. Talk about oxymoron....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
If you reboot the machines as you leave, you can have an everyday wipe with no hassle (but extra power consumption)
Stop the brainwash
Komatsu Canada Limited plans to deploy Thunderbird and Firebird to our corporate users. After extensive testing, we are pleased with the Mozilla browser's compatibility with our major business partner web sites and it's popup blocking feature. We are very pleased with the mail client's anti-SPAM capabilities. Some of our top current Mozilla issues: 1) The lack of support for Mozilla in the current Sun iCS 5.1.1 Calendar server. Sun advises their new Calendar server, available in the fall, will properly support Mozilla. Presently, from the iCS5.1.1 Search dialog, Mozilla 1.4 fails to add users to a meeting or resources to a group. Sun's suggested workaround: use Netscape 4.7x. 2) Bugzilla bug #47838: The inability to insert Windows screen capture images (ALT-PRINTSCREEN) into a mail message or Composer. 3) Regression Bugzilla bug #205947: MailNews Client does not prompt for proxy authentication upon first load. This currently breaks Thunderbird's ability to display mail with embedded external URLs as it no longer prompts for a proxy challenge. This was working in Mozilla 1.4RC1 but is currently broken. 4) Bugzilla bug #36836: mail conduit for the palm sync
I've converted a number of organisations of varying sizes (all under 25 users) to Mozilla for their web browsing. In web browsers, there's no competition.
However the email client is a different issue; as far as I know it doesn't integrate with a mail transport system, so it doesn't scale. an organisation with more than a couple of users wants a mail transport system to manage the email distribution - sifting and sorting email between different mailboxes; automatic replies; collecting from multiple hosts; content control; filtering. I always advocate Pegasus Mail when people are using Windows, it has a companion Mail transport system called Mercury (written by the same guy that writes Pegasus Mail) that is well integrated with Pegasus. Pegasus will also interoperate with other mail transport systems
You don't even need to make an html file:
about:<input type text>
typed into the address bar will do the job.
It may be appropriate to include as part of any argument the Editorial on browsers from eWeek magazine, 16 June 2003 hardcopy.
s p
Browsers Still Matter
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1128988,00.a
n4 had a standalone mail notify application which would sit in the system notification area and spin around when it checked for mail. the nice thing about it was that iw was very light weight and if you wanted to close netscape communicator, you could, it would still be open to check your mail box for new messages.
If you're looking for that feature, mozilla doesn't have it. However mozilla mail can toss a modern skin icon+modern skin alert on windows when it detects new mail. unfortunately it will even do it when the new mail is junk. there are bugs for that, it'll probably be fixed w/in 2 releases. for my profile it tends to always leave the icon in the tray because there's new mail in one account which i never read.... And of course if mozilla crashes the icon will not leave the tray until you mouse over it (w2k) - for older versions of explorer.exe you might need to right click it for explorer to realize it's dead and remove it...
To at least get the alert or new mail sound from mozilla mail on windows, go to edit>preferences>mail & newsgroups>notifications.
note that while some of the features (play a sound) might be available on unix, you probably don't want to use them. sound support in mozilla on unix tends to result in hangs and unhappy users. if you're a developer you're welcome to work on reimplementing nsSound for gtk to play stuff on a thread.
doesn't happen in the last version with all the updates (win2ksp4)
score me down for posting a duplicate,
:), so yes there's bayesian for outlook.
amusingly enought the outlook bayesian plugin was done by one of the people who wrote pyxpcom for mozilla
as for bayesian w/ mozilla imap, yep it works.
coming soon will probably be a setting where junkmail automatically appears as simplified html. but i won't notice this feature since i view all mail as plain text (mozilla 1.4 mail, view>message body as>plain text)
Wow, sounds like they ported Nautilus. It's about time the updated their sad little file browser.
And that even Windows Paint can do PNG?
No, I did not know that. It would be interesting to see Paint deal with layers and transparancies. The last time I used it, it had trouble with a single layer bitmap.
Have they read the publically published and patent unencumbered spec into their browser yet? After all you would think a reasonable software company would have their browser able to display portable NET graphics before a half assed paint program. Tell me they implemented all the features of png and I'll be impressed. Tell me that they have not implemented all those features, but have added a few inadequate replacement features and I'll tell you that's a typical M$ move, late, half-baked and one way compatible with the rest of the world.
your frequent, ill-informed, anti-Microsoft posts on Slashdot recently.
Frequent, yes. An advocate of software freedom, yes. Ill informed? I think not. I'm not willing to fork over the cash it takes to suffer under XP, so kindly answer my question, does IE do png yet?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
the stop button *usually* doesn't work when I hit it. sometimes holding down ESC for 15 seconds will make it stop. but that's not the biggest nuisance... that's the 10-second wait, *after* you hit Stop, while it retreives an error document from some DLL file. whose harebrained idea was that? and of course, if you're typing something in the address bar while it's loading said DLL-based error-document, it erases what you're typing. ARGH
And Slashdot wins again... anything supporting MS gets modded as a troll. You may not agree with the opinion, but it's not a troll. Get with the program, mods...
What makes you think the world is (unevenly) divided between Mozilla and MS Explorer. Right now I'm using w3m to write and post this comment. A text-mode browser (with some graphics ability), w3m is helluva faster than either or even Opera.
Stop thinking in terms of black and white (good guys and bad guys).
For those on a dialup this is a pretty useless feature. There are various free (even GPL) utilities that let you delete the spam at the (pop) server. Why waste bandwith downloading spam, only to delete it later?
I think he is refering to Win 2003 forward as Microsoft plans to include it in the os in all future versions.
Or maybe he's having bad luck.
Win 98 dosen't crash when IE crashes on me. But Win 98 dose crash requiring a reboot when I use anything employing 3D graphics (obveously defective drivers)
But it's just the work puter. I mosrly use it to log into my Linux box at home.
I don't actually exist.
"BTW Don't use File->New Window, click on the shortcut."
I'd say that ^^^^ is it. Get about 8-12 'open link in new window' windows going in ie and you will need a reboot in short order.
(Stolen sig) Remember: it's a "Microsoft virus", not an "email virus", a "Microsoft worm", not a "computer worm
Contrary to the hype most people in the real windoze world are still using 9x of some form, and are going to continue to do so, so ya, it needs to work solid there, too.
(Stolen sig) Remember: it's a "Microsoft virus", not an "email virus", a "Microsoft worm", not a "computer worm
If you are using standard email (ie: pop3/imap/smtp) you should allow people to use any standard client they want. Install some webmail for people on the go and allow people to use whatever they want on their desktop. If they run windows, encourage them to use OL or OLE and if they run mac have them use entourage or the mozilla one.
If you are a mostly windows shop its dumb to force people to use the mozilla one since its bloated and slow in windows with OE runs great and the learning curve is less since thats what they are probably using at home.
My employer uses Mozilla. We're about 300 employees strong, and operate in a number of industries - shipping services, food products, clothing, and recreational products.
Mozilla actually works quite well (a fact which initially surprised me, to some extent). Of all the sites our employees visit, there are only about 10 that need IE. Considering IE access to the other sites is blocked at the proxy server, and the firewalls prohibit direct access to the net, this fact is undeniable.
Support-wise, Mozilla has been a dream. Our IE installs take more babysitting than Mozilla does. Though I do like the IEAK that we push IE out with, Novell's ZENWorks works great to push out Mozilla.
Of-course, whenever someone wines about not being able to use IE, when Mozilla is working just fine, I direct them to http://www.pivx.com/larholm/unpatched/, this is pretty damning evidence of IE's issues.
The reasons we cite for not permitting unrestricted use of IE, are both the issues listed on the above site, and the long, well documented history of security and stability issues inherent in IE.
She complained about a few other items, then all of a sudden she realized that the PC I sold her gave her much less trouble than her box and home, and the most noticable on her work PC was the absence of popups/popunders. She finally calmed down after that, and thanked me for installing Mozilla (well, Netscape, same thing) and forcing her to use that for web and email instead of the twin Exploders.
Duh.
Need a Linux consultant in New Orleans?
I like IE.
IE 6.0 combined with the beta google toolbar makes for the perfect browsing experience.
IE loads faster(okay, okay it's because it's already loaded... mozilla can do this) but it also renders HTML faster.
IE is more of a standard than any standard. People design websites for IE, they don't always look right in mozilla.
And while I hate to admit it, IE is more stable than mozilla. I browse OFTEN, and IE maybe crashes once a week, if that. Also rarely does it bring down the whole system... For desktop usage, stability is not an acceptable anti-M$ arguement.
Oh yeah, Konquerer is my next favorite browser... But it doesn't always display stuff properly, and isn't quite as fast as IE.
If you're running mail for less than a few hundred, it would take some real magic to bring the cost of even just the server side down from 9 per user per month (for MS-Exchange) to 3.5 per user per month.
An additional reason to have IMAP/POP offsite is that if your local Internet connection goes down, mail from your customers and clients still gets queued and not bounced or lost.
MS-Exchange might be good on an isolated Intranet, but connected to the Internet, it's death, especially for departments doing international work.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
I don't know why, but Mozilla loses its startup settings every once in a while. I can't seem to replicate it very consistently, but it happens about once a week or so (random times of the week). It was so bad that the email client was starting to become unusable for me; however, I found that if I restarted Mozilla, it was fine. Weird bugs like this are what kills Mozilla for the business. And yes, I've reported this bug.
The whole virus, trojan, then upgrade to a more secure system is akin to consumer fraud!
And again; I did not mean Apple OS10! I meant the little company that still can, but keeps a low profile making custom software for secure systems.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
People smart enough to use the function,
identify self as internet explorer 5 in Opera and other browsers might tilt the survey just a little.
So maybe only about 90% of internet users are stupid enough to use the default MS internet tools that can get them hacked. That means that 10% of web users have savy, a great improvement from even two years ago.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
FUD alert: Windows 2000 and XP do not get unstable when IE crashes. Windows 95, 98, and presumably ME were quite unstable when IE crashed. (I can't remember if NT 4 was succeptable or not. I don't remember much in terms of instability from that OS.)
So this statement is partially true, but if you're using XP or 2K this statement doesn't apply.
The NEARI School, where I work, is moving towards standardizing Mozilla as our browser. We're an all Mac network, and the process is slow, particularly since IE and Moz both have security flaws under OS9 Mac Manager. Luckily, we're getting an X-Serve (OSX fixes the hole) and soon all our students should be running Mozilla.