But I'm tired of the vehemently anti-Christian, anti-any-religion mindset on Slashdot that says anything that dares suggest a creator is somehow "lunatic fringe."
Oh OK.
But the Spaghetti Monster wants to have a word with you...
True, but taking my fingerprints and putting them on file at the FBI within the first hour of a new job is criminal treatment.
How else can corps "trust" employees who get paid almost nothing compared to the executive brass?
At many companies you're treated as if they need to always look over your shoulder. Those cameras aren't there for your benefit. They're there to catch you if you do anything wrong.
Welcome to Soviet America! Not only are the cameras there to catch you, but if vandals nearly destroy your supervisor's car while she's working a typical late night, the recordings suddenly become "unavailable".
You confuse the general concept of Information Technology with that of the "IT Department". Programmers by-and-large aren't IT staff and don't work in IT departments. They aren't "administrators", don't have the mindset, and if an IT staffer asks a Java or Peoplesoft programmer to fiddle with their package dependencies or xorg.conf they are likely to just call that person's manager to have someone actually fix the system.
Anyone who acts as if systems programmers are typical of programmers has spent too much time around FOSS environments that are hostile to end-users and ISVs.
Purchasing's job is to make sure that the company buys what it needs as cheaply as possible not that it can't buy what it needs. Aa for a general use desktop system that doesn't have IT backing, forget it. Your systems isn't going to pass audits unless it has IT approvals.
And how does Penguin Computing fit here? Not only are they unlikely to match Dell's price points, but the chances of foisting an obscure brand onto IT with their permission is pretty small.
You have obviously never worked at a med-large sized corporation with a purchasing department streamlined to approve equipment only from certain vendors.
And yes, I run into those "one Americans" all the time. They program, they're not OS maintenance experts, and they'd like to distance themselves from Windows or just try something new. But they are not going to tolerate more than two days worth of driver issues during the transition. Well I can recommend the Penguin Computing stuff, but Purchasing would only ever clear it in an emergency. That is the confluence of IT desiring homogenous hardware for their inventory process, and purchasing wanting to deal with the same vendor who put them in a new discount tier when they bought some servers last May.
Not only that, Purchasing WILL keep coming back to you asking why you need the "more expensive" Linux Workstation, when its not only more expensive than some of the PCs they buy, but typically more expensive than the same unit that comes with Windows.
Then there are the heads of departments, who do indeed stay abreast of office computing trends. If nothing else, they've heard about Linux from Legal or someone in IT. Are the IT people going to make a recommendation when asked? No, because they are not going to spend a week of 13-hr days trying to prove for those people that Linux "just works" on some made-for-Windows machines; Many will gladly support a made-for Linux machine if it means they can retain their home life. Do they want to recommend relatively expensive hardware when they've been bragging about how Linux saves money? Not really.
When people originally adopted PCs in the workplace, it was through small-scale curiosity and a certain notion that it conveyed an advantage. Of course, having the purchasing dept. say "Sure we'll accept your requistion; We buy IBM equipment at least every quarter" does have a tiny bit to do with it. That individual initiative to adopt and use PCs would have been stymied without the corporate brand-acceptance. I think moving to a different OS has a similar dynamic.
I know that Redhat supports a release for seven years. Just don't upgrade it or many of your non-YUM, commercial apps will probably break. I will never forget what they put my division through just with the (blatant) incompatabilities they have introduced with pthreads and inetd, never mind having core CLI utilities disappear. And notice that the once-prominent "Redhat Compatible" meme from six years ago has evaporated. Indeed Debian unstable is a rock by comparison, but it was too difficult to install when Redhat was taking off.
As if Microsoft (or any other company, for that matter) would give a damn for Adobe or Oracle: not my stuff, not my bussiness.
And your 'stuff' is what? MySQL? Apache? Tux Racer? Oooo, what 3rd party prowess that shows.
Cop an attitude about 3rd party desktop software all you want. It won't attract customers or help your favorite distro.
CfeB has been IBM's internal distro for some time now. Its packaged with IBM-centric tools and apps. So this move by IBM Germany is just furthering the momentum that is already built on Redhat. IBM has support structures for staff that tend to assume CfeB, and I'm sure the German division would rather use something that IBMers all over the planet are already familiar with.
You can run other distros (plus OS X and Solaris) in some divisions and departments. But in that case its still easier to get help for Redhat and/or CfeB; If you run SuSE or Debian then people are much more likely to just say "gee that's interesting... i don't know the answer".
I think it is getting to the point (maybe it's always been this way) where Linux distributions are effectively different OS's.
Probably not.
First, we have wide LSB compliance. Next, we'll be getting an LSB Desktop spec later this year, which expands on LSB to be more meaningful to end-user needs (covers GUI components, etc).
There is also the DCC Alliance, whose members (Knoppix, Xandros, Linspire, MEPIS and several others) will all share the same LSB Desktop core. Ubuntu hasn't joined, but they now have an agreement with the DCCA to synchronize their kernels.
Dell could ship their own Knoppix-like support CD that the user could boot from during support calls. That way their support staff can direct the user around a consistent environment that contains all the approved drivers for the Dell-supplied hardware.
This isn't about techies and engineers. This is about techies who want to be able to recommend an inexpensive and ubiquitous name-brand for the school district, the law office, the secretary, etc.
Otherwise there would be NO issue: Dell already sells a Red Hat workstation.
Not that I've ever had that problem on Redhat or CentOS, but what you describe isn't even due to the RPM package format. And I've never had a problem managing RPMs on a Debian system. It works as a package format.
Ultimately, ALL these distros suffer from the effects of a centralized database that gridlocks users into choices made within the central repository. We must use this hideous kludge called "package manager" because there is no standard definition for desktop Linux where the OS stops and where applications begin.
It does relieve dependency hell... for the simpler installation scenarios. For independantly-distributed software its miserable.
You can read about the LSB Desktop spec that's in development over here.
All of the DCC-based distros (Knoppix, Xandros, Linspire, MEPIS, etc.) and some others will be compliant with this standard shortly after it is finalized.
Red Hat is clueless about the desktop market, which needs a stable platform on which 3rd party applications will continue to work through two or more OS upgrades (or five years at the very least). I have direct experience supporting products on Red Hat and can tell you they are not interested in anything that does not already come with their software ensembles or from their YUM repository. They make too many radical changes that-- to someone who stays within YUM-- appear to be a smoothly-running system and chaos to everyone else.
Red Hat does not want to be tied to supporting a stable PLATFORM, so they should be our last choice for a desktop PC.
So what? The community is not at the beck and call of 'industry powerhouses'.
Yes we are. You're just in denial.
Linux users will always be at the mercy of hardware vendors, moreso now than ever because Trusted Computing is showing up on store shelves.
At this rate, the tiny installed base will translate into Linux home and small-office users being stuck with ancient boxes and unable to connect with anything beyond our own LANs. With no sizable FOSS market on the desktop, vendors hardly have a reason to avoid jumping 100% on a hardware bandwagon that will lock us out. There will be no hardware alternatives because there are no successful software alternatives. There will just be Apple and MS, both with their eye on becoming gatekeepers for mass media.
Now ask yourself: Does expecting users to scrounge for used server hardware just to get running sound like the spirit under which Linus Torvalds embarked? Hardly.
And read the news! Linux International is switching to an end-user focus. Perhaps too late, but there it is.
Bottom line is this: The market will find a way to freeze-out any product that doesn't make committments in the end-user interface, because it is effectively unsupportable. If you want to tinker with non-standard stuff on the fringes then that is fine, just do not get in the way of a mainstream effort.
I have prefered Debian distros for years now, and even I know that dpkg is no better than rpm. The rpm-based distros now have APT-equivalents with matching repositories.
eBay owns Skype now and plans to integrate it with its services. So if you want to orchestrate a sizable eBay auction using Skype, you'll be forced to use Intel hardware.
Soybean oil is a by-product of agricultural processing of foods. The biodiesel market does not yet even come close to comsuming all of that excess (hundreds of millions of gallons per year).
If anything, increasing soy crops due to fuel demand would increase the available food supply as it edges-out the least efficient methods of food production like raising livestock, which needs about 10X the land area to produce the same nutritional value.
Also, soy is a legume and used as a rotation crop to replenish the soil.
Properly characterizing the instant-gratification nature of electronic voting as an immature, unwise development would be good.
I agree with your point of view. But entrenched interests in the mass media are not going to allow the issue to be broached so rationally. Economic conservatives get to frame the debates and no one else; And their instincts and opinions will require that voting-as-privatized-service receives the lions share of flattering spin.
Or maybe just calling it "black box voting" mostly achieves that characterization. But you won't hear news anchors repeating that phrase with any regularity. The term won't be elevated to media-buzz status because it doesn't make anyone at OpinionJournal feel richer or more in control.
I'm kindof a KDE fan and find it reflects a more functional and task-oriented mindset, and the docs are better than average for FOSS. That said, I'd rather not recommend new users to Linux and have them face Konqueror. Oodles of buttons are nice... the CHOOSE from, not to have them shoved in one's face by default. I'm afraid that shows a lot of wingdinging on KDE's part as well.
GNOME has lately settled into a mode where if they've made a couple bad errors, or its really tedious, or they've had a few big tiffs over a feature... then they turn into these feature-nazis where "Difficult for us == Something you didn't need anyway. *CHOP!*" (Cue the Soviet Russia jokes.)
Slashdot Mirror
But I'm tired of the vehemently anti-Christian, anti-any-religion mindset on Slashdot that says anything that dares suggest a creator is somehow "lunatic fringe."
Oh OK.
But the Spaghetti Monster wants to have a word with you...
...on its arms.
Even cooler!
Or does the medical research community not care that my life is made hazardous having to work with sweets-scarfing aspartame junkies??
True, but taking my fingerprints and putting them on file at the FBI within the first hour of a new job is criminal treatment.
How else can corps "trust" employees who get paid almost nothing compared to the executive brass?
At many companies you're treated as if they need to always look over your shoulder. Those cameras aren't there for your benefit. They're there to catch you if you do anything wrong.
Welcome to Soviet America! Not only are the cameras there to catch you, but if vandals nearly destroy your supervisor's car while she's working a typical late night, the recordings suddenly become "unavailable".
You confuse the general concept of Information Technology with that of the "IT Department". Programmers by-and-large aren't IT staff and don't work in IT departments. They aren't "administrators", don't have the mindset, and if an IT staffer asks a Java or Peoplesoft programmer to fiddle with their package dependencies or xorg.conf they are likely to just call that person's manager to have someone actually fix the system.
Anyone who acts as if systems programmers are typical of programmers has spent too much time around FOSS environments that are hostile to end-users and ISVs.
Purchasing's job is to make sure that the company buys what it needs as cheaply as possible not that it can't buy what it needs. Aa for a general use desktop system that doesn't have IT backing, forget it. Your systems isn't going to pass audits unless it has IT approvals.
And how does Penguin Computing fit here? Not only are they unlikely to match Dell's price points, but the chances of foisting an obscure brand onto IT with their permission is pretty small.
You have obviously never worked at a med-large sized corporation with a purchasing department streamlined to approve equipment only from certain vendors.
And yes, I run into those "one Americans" all the time. They program, they're not OS maintenance experts, and they'd like to distance themselves from Windows or just try something new. But they are not going to tolerate more than two days worth of driver issues during the transition. Well I can recommend the Penguin Computing stuff, but Purchasing would only ever clear it in an emergency. That is the confluence of IT desiring homogenous hardware for their inventory process, and purchasing wanting to deal with the same vendor who put them in a new discount tier when they bought some servers last May.
Not only that, Purchasing WILL keep coming back to you asking why you need the "more expensive" Linux Workstation, when its not only more expensive than some of the PCs they buy, but typically more expensive than the same unit that comes with Windows.
Then there are the heads of departments, who do indeed stay abreast of office computing trends. If nothing else, they've heard about Linux from Legal or someone in IT. Are the IT people going to make a recommendation when asked? No, because they are not going to spend a week of 13-hr days trying to prove for those people that Linux "just works" on some made-for-Windows machines; Many will gladly support a made-for Linux machine if it means they can retain their home life. Do they want to recommend relatively expensive hardware when they've been bragging about how Linux saves money? Not really.
When people originally adopted PCs in the workplace, it was through small-scale curiosity and a certain notion that it conveyed an advantage. Of course, having the purchasing dept. say "Sure we'll accept your requistion; We buy IBM equipment at least every quarter" does have a tiny bit to do with it. That individual initiative to adopt and use PCs would have been stymied without the corporate brand-acceptance. I think moving to a different OS has a similar dynamic.
I know that Redhat supports a release for seven years. Just don't upgrade it or many of your non-YUM, commercial apps will probably break. I will never forget what they put my division through just with the (blatant) incompatabilities they have introduced with pthreads and inetd, never mind having core CLI utilities disappear. And notice that the once-prominent "Redhat Compatible" meme from six years ago has evaporated. Indeed Debian unstable is a rock by comparison, but it was too difficult to install when Redhat was taking off.
As if Microsoft (or any other company, for that matter) would give a damn for Adobe or Oracle: not my stuff, not my bussiness.
And your 'stuff' is what? MySQL? Apache? Tux Racer? Oooo, what 3rd party prowess that shows.
Cop an attitude about 3rd party desktop software all you want. It won't attract customers or help your favorite distro.
CfeB has been IBM's internal distro for some time now. Its packaged with IBM-centric tools and apps. So this move by IBM Germany is just furthering the momentum that is already built on Redhat. IBM has support structures for staff that tend to assume CfeB, and I'm sure the German division would rather use something that IBMers all over the planet are already familiar with.
You can run other distros (plus OS X and Solaris) in some divisions and departments. But in that case its still easier to get help for Redhat and/or CfeB; If you run SuSE or Debian then people are much more likely to just say "gee that's interesting... i don't know the answer".
I think it is getting to the point (maybe it's always been this way) where Linux distributions are effectively different OS's.
Probably not.
First, we have wide LSB compliance. Next, we'll be getting an LSB Desktop spec later this year, which expands on LSB to be more meaningful to end-user needs (covers GUI components, etc).
There is also the DCC Alliance, whose members (Knoppix, Xandros, Linspire, MEPIS and several others) will all share the same LSB Desktop core. Ubuntu hasn't joined, but they now have an agreement with the DCCA to synchronize their kernels.
Dell could ship their own Knoppix-like support CD that the user could boot from during support calls. That way their support staff can direct the user around a consistent environment that contains all the approved drivers for the Dell-supplied hardware.
This isn't about techies and engineers. This is about techies who want to be able to recommend an inexpensive and ubiquitous name-brand for the school district, the law office, the secretary, etc.
Otherwise there would be NO issue: Dell already sells a Red Hat workstation.
Sheesh.
http://www.linuxbase.org/LSBWiki/DesktopWG
Not that I've ever had that problem on Redhat or CentOS, but what you describe isn't even due to the RPM package format. And I've never had a problem managing RPMs on a Debian system. It works as a package format.
Ultimately, ALL these distros suffer from the effects of a centralized database that gridlocks users into choices made within the central repository. We must use this hideous kludge called "package manager" because there is no standard definition for desktop Linux where the OS stops and where applications begin.
It does relieve dependency hell... for the simpler installation scenarios. For independantly-distributed software its miserable.
You can read about the upcoming LSB Desktop here:
http://www.linuxbase.org/LSBWiki/DesktopWG
You can read about the LSB Desktop spec that's in development over here.
All of the DCC-based distros (Knoppix, Xandros, Linspire, MEPIS, etc.) and some others will be compliant with this standard shortly after it is finalized.
Red Hat is clueless about the desktop market, which needs a stable platform on which 3rd party applications will continue to work through two or more OS upgrades (or five years at the very least). I have direct experience supporting products on Red Hat and can tell you they are not interested in anything that does not already come with their software ensembles or from their YUM repository. They make too many radical changes that-- to someone who stays within YUM-- appear to be a smoothly-running system and chaos to everyone else.
Red Hat does not want to be tied to supporting a stable PLATFORM, so they should be our last choice for a desktop PC.
You are talking about servers and workstations marketed to IT pros, not desktop PCs.
So what? The community is not at the beck and call of 'industry powerhouses'.
Yes we are. You're just in denial.
Linux users will always be at the mercy of hardware vendors, moreso now than ever because Trusted Computing is showing up on store shelves.
At this rate, the tiny installed base will translate into Linux home and small-office users being stuck with ancient boxes and unable to connect with anything beyond our own LANs. With no sizable FOSS market on the desktop, vendors hardly have a reason to avoid jumping 100% on a hardware bandwagon that will lock us out. There will be no hardware alternatives because there are no successful software alternatives. There will just be Apple and MS, both with their eye on becoming gatekeepers for mass media.
Now ask yourself: Does expecting users to scrounge for used server hardware just to get running sound like the spirit under which Linus Torvalds embarked? Hardly.
And read the news! Linux International is switching to an end-user focus. Perhaps too late, but there it is.
Bottom line is this: The market will find a way to freeze-out any product that doesn't make committments in the end-user interface, because it is effectively unsupportable. If you want to tinker with non-standard stuff on the fringes then that is fine, just do not get in the way of a mainstream effort.
That comment is so 1999.
I have prefered Debian distros for years now, and even I know that dpkg is no better than rpm. The rpm-based distros now have APT-equivalents with matching repositories.
That one raised my eyebrows as well. However, more than this new ability to censor information is that they may be legally required to do so.
The closer we are to their "End Times", the better. No?
eBay owns Skype now and plans to integrate it with its services. So if you want to orchestrate a sizable eBay auction using Skype, you'll be forced to use Intel hardware.
Is eBay run by imbeciles now?
There's an interesting article about the Earth Simulator and climate modeling over here.
Soybean oil is a by-product of agricultural processing of foods. The biodiesel market does not yet even come close to comsuming all of that excess (hundreds of millions of gallons per year).
If anything, increasing soy crops due to fuel demand would increase the available food supply as it edges-out the least efficient methods of food production like raising livestock, which needs about 10X the land area to produce the same nutritional value.
Also, soy is a legume and used as a rotation crop to replenish the soil.
Properly characterizing the instant-gratification nature of electronic voting as an immature, unwise development would be good.
I agree with your point of view. But entrenched interests in the mass media are not going to allow the issue to be broached so rationally. Economic conservatives get to frame the debates and no one else; And their instincts and opinions will require that voting-as-privatized-service receives the lions share of flattering spin.
Or maybe just calling it "black box voting" mostly achieves that characterization. But you won't hear news anchors repeating that phrase with any regularity. The term won't be elevated to media-buzz status because it doesn't make anyone at OpinionJournal feel richer or more in control.
I'm kindof a KDE fan and find it reflects a more functional and task-oriented mindset, and the docs are better than average for FOSS. That said, I'd rather not recommend new users to Linux and have them face Konqueror. Oodles of buttons are nice... the CHOOSE from, not to have them shoved in one's face by default. I'm afraid that shows a lot of wingdinging on KDE's part as well.
GNOME has lately settled into a mode where if they've made a couple bad errors, or its really tedious, or they've had a few big tiffs over a feature... then they turn into these feature-nazis where "Difficult for us == Something you didn't need anyway. *CHOP!*" (Cue the Soviet Russia jokes.)
And that Gnome cheerleading. It creeps me out.