I didn't say GNOME will be there in 6 months. I said it is being used now (read the part of my post where I mentioned corporate desktops) and will receive even more support in the next 6 months to a year. By more I mean the thousands of corporate customers of HP and Sun.
I am all for being nice to "the other side" on these things but what I see is people strugling to use Gnome for ideological
reasons and other people getting work done with KDE for financial reasons.
What are you basing this on? As a consultant in St. Louis, MO, I have had the pleasure of working with a few firms who provide Red Hat/GNOME solutions for corporate desktops and workstations. And GNOME use is rapidly expanding from Red Hat (and other distributions such as Debian and Turbo Linux) to other Unix variants. With Solaris switching to GNOME 2.0 in place of CDE as the default desktop environment, and HP-UX likewise embracing GNOME, you're going to see even more validation for GNOME on the desktop in the next 6 months to a year.
All this is to say, where are the facts that support your statement?
Re:I'm a disappointed GNOME user...
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KDE 2.2 Tagged
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· Score: 2
this really is off topic for a KDE story...
Yes, ordinarily I wouldn't post information about GNOME on a KDE thread, but I felt it necessary to respond to the person who claimed that GNOME was stagnant.
While I'm involved in the GNOME community, I wish the KDE project well--it's exciting for me to see free software succeed no matter what the project.
Re:I'm a disappointed GNOME user...
on
KDE 2.2 Tagged
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· Score: 5, Informative
And where is GNOME's promised 2.0 release!?!?... Damnit Miguel?!?! What happened to the enthusiasm and momentum?! Put your marketting hat on!
I've never in my life bought a piece of software that Microsoft produced. The computers I've bought or obtained either had no OS installed or I paid nothing for the machine and it already had Windows installed. I've also seen pirated copies of Microsoft software (Windows 2000, Visual Studio, etc.) being passed around the offices where I've worked faster than hot cookies fresh out of the oven. I don't think most people feel the least bit of guilt over illegally copying Microsoft's software.
On the other hand, when I first tried Linux about 3 years ago, I bought the Red Hat box set because I wanted the documentation, wanted to support a company that I believe in, and because I didn't have the bandwidth to download a distribution. I wasn't aware of places like CheapBytes at the time. Since then I've purchased numerous CD's online through companies such as these who sell for a couple bucks each. Nowadays I have DSL and a CD burner so I download or write every bit of software I use.
Good? Subjective. Clean? Subjective. Interoperable? We will see about that one. Technical superiority can only be claimed once it has been proven. Right now we can only assume software development will be better after Microsoft launches.NET into the world.
Yes, it's subjective. I was stating my opinion of the platform.
They are using OO style programming in C to implement Mono for godsakes!
Actually, Mono is being implemented in C#. Download the code. In some cases, existing GNOME libraries will be used to implement specific parts of Mono such as the GUI elements or database access. The actual.NET classes themselves are being implemented in C#. Your point about OO programming in C seems orthogonal--Once you learn the semantics and conventions of OO programming in C, or any other language, it's not so strange looking. C++ was originally just a set of preprocessor macros built on top of C, e.g. But I digress...
Ximian wants people to spend _their_ free time and energy helping Ximian make a profit.
"Come help us code! Do it for the good of open source! For free software's sake!"
You have a really slanted view of how free software in business works. There are two reasons (at least) why Ximian began the Mono project. The first is that Miguel, Nat, and some other folks looked carefully at the.NET development platform and found it be a very well architected software development platform for which there was no free software implementation. The second reason is that the.NET development platform is well-suited to the direction Ximian is moving in and will aid them in developing the next generation of their applications and services. Yes, of course they want developer support from outside the company. This is no secret. This has never been a secret of open source/free software business models. Bob Young of Red Hat fame has said on numerous occasions that a company as small as Red Hat could never produce an entire operating system, documentation, support, and everything else that is Red Hat. They harness the power of open source. Ximian is no exception. Most of the GNOME developers do not work for Ximian. Most of the.NET developers working on Mono do not work for Ximian. Most of the Linux kernel developers do not work for any Linux distribution company. So yes, Ximian wants involvement and they've gotten it, and they'll get more. Why? Because there are a lot of developers that have been using.NET or at least looking at the architecture, and want a free software implementation.
This gained support from the free software purists. Now Ximian is attempting to get free
software coders on the Mono bandwagon by spewing crap about how technically superior it is.Compared to what, Miguel?
Compared to conventional means of developing software. Read the Mono FAQ
Nothing EXISTS that is comparable to this system.
Precisely. I couldn't have said it better myself, nor could Ximian marketing people. Nothing in itself is particularly innovative about.NET--what makes it interesting is how it all fits together. It's a good, clean development platform that allows for a whole lot of interoperability.
Could it be because Ximian is causing a lot of hype over vaporware?
.NET is not vapourware. People who claim that.NET is vapour do not understand the.NET development platform or have a curious definition of vapourware. And the Mono project is a very real, though new project, to implement the.NET development platform as free software. If you check the mono mailing list archives (I can only assume you aren't currently on the list), you'll see how quickly the project has gained developers who have implemented over 230 classes in a remarkably short period of time.
How *much* do we have to read about Mono, a project that only exists in name and hype? If Mono is so good, shut up and
show us the code.
Absolutely..NET is a nice development platform. You can argue whether it's better or worse than other platforms, but that is beside the point--the point is, free software is about freedom. If you don't like.NET, you don't have to use it. But people are developing on.NET already and many many more will be joining them. Users of free operating systems and lovers of free software alike, should also be able (free) to also develop.NET applications.
For example, database access is through
ADO.NET which is a layer that sits on top of OLEDB. ASP.NET sits on IIS of course. Windows Forms doesn't
even hid the fact that it sits on Win32.
However, Mono aims to duplicate these APIs using already existing (and modified) Gnome libraries. From the FAQ:
Question 25: How is this related to GNOME?
In a number of ways: Mono will use existing components that have been developed for GNOME when it makes sense. For example on X systems, we will use Gtk+ and Libart to implement Winforms and the Drawing2D API. For database access, we will use LibGDA (not really depending on GNOME, but related to).
Also, Mono will embrace and extend.NET:
Question 40: Would you allow other classes other than those in the specification?
Yes. The Microsoft class collection is very big, but it is by no means complete. It would be nice to have a port of `Camel' (the Mail API used by Evolution inspired by Java Mail) for Mono applications.You might also want to look into implementing CORBA for Mono. Not only because it would be useful, but because it sounds like a fun thing to do, given the fact that the CLI is such a type rich system.
The reason is that Microsoft wants to get.NET everywhere. It's pretty simple. They get everyone using.NET on all platforms. At that point, given their leadership and origination of.NET they will be positioned to make a LOT of money off it. Kudos to Ximian for jumping in early as the.NET architecture really fits well with Ximian's strategy.
In galeon it's just a checkbox in the preferences, IIRC. Also, what I like to do is set all popups and new url's opened to go to a new tab. I love tabbed browsing. If it's an annoying add, I can ignore that tab or close it later.
If you read the article, you'd discover one of the major reasons Ximian has been working on.NET is that they plan to utilize the framework for their services, which incidentally, is a major part of their profit strategy. Evolution hackers at Ximian have mentioned that a drop-in replacement for Exchange is not out of the question, but at the moment, at least visible to public eyes, the primary areas of development that Ximian is working on are:
Evolution
Red Carpet and enhanced software delivery
Maintaining their Gnome distribution
Misc. Gnome hacking (maintenance, Gnome 2.0, Gnumeric, bonobo, etc.
Ximian Setup Tools
Services...
The services should be exciting. Picture things like mass network-wide, up-to-the-minute software delivery/installation, system configuration (cross platform) that's network-wide with configuration details separate from the client and possibly not even on the same machine. Software could be instaled, systems configured all by a client that's connected to a server somewhere at Ximian, for a fee. I could see tight integration between the Evolution suite and Ximian's services--store contacts, email, share files, across the network. Of course, the standard disclaimer: I don't work for Ximian. I just am stating some ideas that I think would be cool or that seem to be logical given what Ximian is publically working on.
No, I said the Gimp, the name by which it's most often refered to. Sure the acronym stands for something that makes sense, but the point is, the word Gimp doesn't conjure up ideas of manipulating images by fiat or explicit definition. Lots of people use the Gimp without ever knowing what it stands for. And yes, "Slashdot" is an excellent example.
I don't think the name of a piece of software necessarily has to describe it's function. As a piece of software becomes more popular, if it has an original name, that name will become synonymous with the software's function. Take the Gimp as an example; There are now literally millions of people who know what the Gimp's purpose is. What about Napster? If napster didn't suck nowadays and kept taking off, that word would probably be added to the dictionary in a few years. Well maybe not, but you get my point. Ximian's Evolution is still under development but already has thousands of users who are already forming the association between the name "Evolution" and it's function--The mail/groupware suite. Aim high, developers--if you're starting a new project or considering a renaming, there's nothing wrong with the name being descriptive, but at least consider some really original names and then work to make your piece of software the best in it's class. You'll earn the distinction of having the name of your project mean what it's function is and might even have other projects prepending letters or company names to your name in the future...:) Try to then be the Gimp of X, where X is any category of software...
It's fast. Gecko (especially recent builds) renders beautifully and does it very fast. You can also start galeon with the -s option (server). This will cause it to behave kind of like IE, initializing things without actually popping up a window. I have this saved in my Gnome session so it starts up as a server every time I log into Gnome. Then I just start galeon with -w for new window in existing process and it's there instantly.
Tabbed Browsing rocks. I don't know how to live without this now. Nor more multiple windows for me. I just middle click links and they start in a new tab. All annoying popups go there too, where I can ignore them.
There is no indication yet that Red Hat developed a new database from scratch. Their product may very well an optimized, packaged version of an existing open source database with configuration and interoperability tools.
For those who aren't aware what Tux is, it's a cute penguin--the linux mascot. The real news is that it can now swim faster than a military aircraft can fly.
I live in St. Louis, MO where I pay $450/month for a spacious, nice but older apartment with hardwood floors in a nice neighbourhood. The Market's a bit stagnant here but not horrible and the cost of living is excellent.
Slashdot Mirror
I didn't say GNOME will be there in 6 months. I said it is being used now (read the part of my post where I mentioned corporate desktops) and will receive even more support in the next 6 months to a year. By more I mean the thousands of corporate customers of HP and Sun.
What are you basing this on? As a consultant in St. Louis, MO, I have had the pleasure of working with a few firms who provide Red Hat/GNOME solutions for corporate desktops and workstations. And GNOME use is rapidly expanding from Red Hat (and other distributions such as Debian and Turbo Linux) to other Unix variants. With Solaris switching to GNOME 2.0 in place of CDE as the default desktop environment, and HP-UX likewise embracing GNOME, you're going to see even more validation for GNOME on the desktop in the next 6 months to a year.
All this is to say, where are the facts that support your statement?
Yes, ordinarily I wouldn't post information about GNOME on a KDE thread, but I felt it necessary to respond to the person who claimed that GNOME was stagnant.
While I'm involved in the GNOME community, I wish the KDE project well--it's exciting for me to see free software succeed no matter what the project.
Huh? Do you even remotely keep a watch of the GNOME community? A couple months ago the GNOME 2.0 schedule was released and things are moving along pretty much as planned. A 2.0 API freeze just occured, activity on the lists and in CVS is dramatically rising. We've had recent releases of the new Control Center, a brand new AbiWord, second Beta of Evolution, new releases of development tools gIDE (screenshot) and DevHelp (screenshot), a new file selection dialog, etc...I could go on. I suggest you at least read the GNOME Summaries or check out Gnotices every now and then.
On the other hand, when I first tried Linux about 3 years ago, I bought the Red Hat box set because I wanted the documentation, wanted to support a company that I believe in, and because I didn't have the bandwidth to download a distribution. I wasn't aware of places like CheapBytes at the time. Since then I've purchased numerous CD's online through companies such as these who sell for a couple bucks each. Nowadays I have DSL and a CD burner so I download or write every bit of software I use.
You downloaded the runtime. The .NET classes are C#. The latest snapshot can be grabbed here.
Yes, it's subjective. I was stating my opinion of the platform.
They are using OO style programming in C to implement Mono for godsakes!
Actually, Mono is being implemented in C#. Download the code. In some cases, existing GNOME libraries will be used to implement specific parts of Mono such as the GUI elements or database access. The actual .NET classes themselves are being implemented in C#. Your point about OO programming in C seems orthogonal--Once you learn the semantics and conventions of OO programming in C, or any other language, it's not so strange looking. C++ was originally just a set of preprocessor macros built on top of C, e.g. But I digress...
You have a really slanted view of how free software in business works. There are two reasons (at least) why Ximian began the Mono project. The first is that Miguel, Nat, and some other folks looked carefully at the .NET development platform and found it be a very well architected software development platform for which there was no free software implementation. The second reason is that the .NET development platform is well-suited to the direction Ximian is moving in and will aid them in developing the next generation of their applications and services. Yes, of course they want developer support from outside the company. This is no secret. This has never been a secret of open source/free software business models. Bob Young of Red Hat fame has said on numerous occasions that a company as small as Red Hat could never produce an entire operating system, documentation, support, and everything else that is Red Hat. They harness the power of open source. Ximian is no exception. Most of the GNOME developers do not work for Ximian. Most of the .NET developers working on Mono do not work for Ximian. Most of the Linux kernel developers do not work for any Linux distribution company. So yes, Ximian wants involvement and they've gotten it, and they'll get more. Why? Because there are a lot of developers that have been using .NET or at least looking at the architecture, and want a free software implementation.
This gained support from the free software purists. Now Ximian is attempting to get free software coders on the Mono bandwagon by spewing crap about how technically superior it is.Compared to what, Miguel?
Compared to conventional means of developing software. Read the Mono FAQ
Nothing EXISTS that is comparable to this system.
Precisely. I couldn't have said it better myself, nor could Ximian marketing people. Nothing in itself is particularly innovative about .NET--what makes it interesting is how it all fits together. It's a good, clean development platform that allows for a whole lot of interoperability.
How *much* do we have to read about Mono, a project that only exists in name and hype? If Mono is so good, shut up and show us the code.
okay: here it is.
There should be an anonymous CVS server available soon, too.
0.11-ximian.2 is the beta.
debian potato debs here
correct link
However, Mono aims to duplicate these APIs using already existing (and modified) Gnome libraries. From the FAQ:
Question 25: How is this related to GNOME?
In a number of ways: Mono will use existing components that have been developed for GNOME when it makes sense. For example on X systems, we will use Gtk+ and Libart to implement Winforms and the Drawing2D API. For database access, we will use LibGDA (not really depending on GNOME, but related to).
Also, Mono will embrace and extend .NET:
Question 40: Would you allow other classes other than those in the specification?
Yes. The Microsoft class collection is very big, but it is by no means complete. It would be nice to have a port of `Camel' (the Mail API used by Evolution inspired by Java Mail) for Mono applications.You might also want to look into implementing CORBA for Mono. Not only because it would be useful, but because it sounds like a fun thing to do, given the fact that the CLI is such a type rich system.
The reason is that Microsoft wants to get .NET everywhere. It's pretty simple. They get everyone using .NET on all platforms. At that point, given their leadership and origination of .NET they will be positioned to make a LOT of money off it. Kudos to Ximian for jumping in early as the .NET architecture really fits well with Ximian's strategy.
I have run Gnome on a pentium I 100Mhz with 32 Megs of RAM and it was ran fine. Do you have any facts to back the "slow" and "bloated" claims?
Thanks, nautilus hackers, for your continued hard work. 1.0.4 is substantially faster than 1.0.3!
You can disable popups in Galeon and Mozilla as well. In mozilla 0.9.2 you add the following line to your prefs.js while mozilla is not running:
user_pref("capability.policy.default.Window.open", "noAccess");
In galeon it's just a checkbox in the preferences, IIRC. Also, what I like to do is set all popups and new url's opened to go to a new tab. I love tabbed browsing. If it's an annoying add, I can ignore that tab or close it later.
The services should be exciting. Picture things like mass network-wide, up-to-the-minute software delivery/installation, system configuration (cross platform) that's network-wide with configuration details separate from the client and possibly not even on the same machine. Software could be instaled, systems configured all by a client that's connected to a server somewhere at Ximian, for a fee. I could see tight integration between the Evolution suite and Ximian's services--store contacts, email, share files, across the network. Of course, the standard disclaimer: I don't work for Ximian. I just am stating some ideas that I think would be cool or that seem to be logical given what Ximian is publically working on.
No, I said the Gimp, the name by which it's most often refered to. Sure the acronym stands for something that makes sense, but the point is, the word Gimp doesn't conjure up ideas of manipulating images by fiat or explicit definition. Lots of people use the Gimp without ever knowing what it stands for. And yes, "Slashdot" is an excellent example.
I don't think the name of a piece of software necessarily has to describe it's function. As a piece of software becomes more popular, if it has an original name, that name will become synonymous with the software's function. Take the Gimp as an example; There are now literally millions of people who know what the Gimp's purpose is. What about Napster? If napster didn't suck nowadays and kept taking off, that word would probably be added to the dictionary in a few years. Well maybe not, but you get my point. Ximian's Evolution is still under development but already has thousands of users who are already forming the association between the name "Evolution" and it's function--The mail/groupware suite. Aim high, developers--if you're starting a new project or considering a renaming, there's nothing wrong with the name being descriptive, but at least consider some really original names and then work to make your piece of software the best in it's class. You'll earn the distinction of having the name of your project mean what it's function is and might even have other projects prepending letters or company names to your name in the future...:) Try to then be the Gimp of X, where X is any category of software...
Tabbed Browsing rocks. I don't know how to live without this now. Nor more multiple windows for me. I just middle click links and they start in a new tab. All annoying popups go there too, where I can ignore them.
There is no indication yet that Red Hat developed a new database from scratch. Their product may very well an optimized, packaged version of an existing open source database with configuration and interoperability tools.
For those who aren't aware what Tux is, it's a cute penguin--the linux mascot. The real news is that it can now swim faster than a military aircraft can fly.
I live in St. Louis, MO where I pay $450/month for a spacious, nice but older apartment with hardwood floors in a nice neighbourhood. The Market's a bit stagnant here but not horrible and the cost of living is excellent.