Thanks for your well-reasoned reply. After reading it thoroughly, I'm actually man enough to admit that you are completely right, and that I'm just angry for not having flash on my favorite platform.:)
I think you're pulling statistics up of your hat. We both know that neither of us know how many are using 64-bit Linux for the desktop. I know many, including myself, who uses it for the desktop, but I don't have any hard statistics either. Nobody's asked me what I'm using, and you can't trust the user-agent strings from the browsers, so how can one know? I've never heard about any polls for this either.
Regardless of what the current situation might be, I'm convinced that 64-bit Linux is in growth for the desktop.
To sum it up, you're inventing statistics to support your claim. And furthermore, Flash is still not supported "in a browser, on a phone or wherever".
>We code in Laszlo's mixture of XML and Javascript, and it compiles that to Flash for rendering. The final >output may be in a browser, may be on a phone, or whatever.
Except if you're using 64-bit *nix, where getting flash to work properly currently requires installing a 32-bit environment inside your 64-bit environment (chroot), and running your browser from there with the proprietary plugin from Macromedia. I don't know anyone who actually does this.
A good enough open source version of an swf-player might show up anytime soon, though.:)
> You say: "This is wrong. I've written source code in C# that used Gtk# and Mono. No behind-chasing, and > pure open source." Well, the fact that you *can* write source code in C# that uses GTK
I not only can, this is the way I do it, and all people that use C# on Linux, that I know of.
> doesn't exclude the fact that an app written for.Net, with MSFT tools, will often end up making use of > Winforms and other code
Yes it does, as they don't often end up making use of Winforms, since it's still very alpha in Mono.
> that the Mono camp has to reverse-engineer and "behind-chase" forever, since they don't have control of the API or platform.
I agree with you that the Mono camp might do this, which must be a big disadvantage to them. Luckily, as a user of Mono, I don't have to relate to this. I use the tools without any loss of control. I don't behind-chase anything.
> That is what you're advocating for - and a Microsoft platform that you're indirectly promoting by > perpetuating the myth that.Net is cross platform- by using Mono. Period.
I have never said such a thing. I'm advocating C# on Linux. Period.
> You can cry all you want and point fingers of blame at Java
I've never blamed Java for anything. I actually like Java as a language and a concept, even though it has some flaws. I think you're shooting the wrong person here.
> because your little Microsoft.net copycat platform doesn't get attention,
Well, you're actually right about this. A google search show only 96,900,000 hits for Mono, 99,700,000 for C#, and 663,000,000 for Java. The trends are rising for C#, and falling for Java, though: http://google.com/trends?q=c%23%2C+java But clearly, Java has more attention. I don't relate to the "little Microsoft.net copycat"-part, though. I use an open-source tool that I can use for whatever I like.
> but truth is, Java and Swing remains the best way to create cross-platform apps.
I don't care.
> And soon with Apache's open source java VM builds, you'll no longer have an excuse to complain about.
I still haven't complained about that, though, so you're not really speaking to the right person here.
To sum it up, you wrongly accuse me on a number of things and I still don't behind-chase anything.
> For the most part, consumer software can be divided into two camps: applications and tools. And almost > universally, applications should be webapps, and tools should be high-performance client-side software.
Think of editing video, composing music, drawing illustrations, creating artwork and playing games. Should Quake have been a webapp? Is it a tool? Are games uncommon for cusumer software? Are applications like 3D studio max a tool or an app?
Look, there is a munchillion people out there, that have learned Java at uni or at work.
These people just ache for releasing their open source project in all it's open source gloryness, and dreams of having it included in all the major GNU/Linux/FreeBSD/*nux distros.
This is an enormous potential, that is destoyed by not having a version of Java included in all open nuxes, by default, that is easy to work with and works as they expect. Not to speak of extremely security-minded companies, that only work with open source.
And, as long as Sun's Java isn't proper open source, it is not going to be their version of Java that's running everywhere.
Why Sun doesn't see that this is where the problem lies, not with the actual looking at sourcecode, beats me.
To some extent, you could have wireless software-upgrades instead of replacing it.
Lots of people already wear various kinds of implants, and they seem to do just fine. (I once talked to a girl that had a birth-control implant, and she was very happy with it).
As another poster said, we've tried this on animals for a while now, which have pretty much the same reactions.
A lot of thieves today will happily steal money, but not kill people for it. I think the same goes with chopping off arms. It's still problematic if only a few thieves does this, though.
I think the worst thing about RFID-tagging humans isn't the technology, but the associations. It instantly reminds me of the way they were tatooing numbers on the arms of death-camp victims during ww2.
I can't remember any positive setting, where people are "marked".
The big advantages of RFID-tagging people is best seen through the eyes of a totalitarian state.
I agree that they are about equal in readability. Python is briefer and nicer, but java tend to be more explisit and well organized. (But, I think System.out.println is overly explisit).
However, as I'm sure you'll agree, the quality of the code is a trait of the programmers, not the languages, which was the original point I wished to get through.:)
public class HelloWorld {
public static void main (String[] args)
{
System.out.println("Hello, world!");
} }
compared to
print "Hello, world!"
The above code is not a result of the cleverness of the developers, but of how the languages are constructed. Now, which one is clearer and easier to read?
Try out the latest greatest Xubuntu, and I think you'll be surprised at how incredibly nice it is.
Why, for instance, Debian is supposed to be so much more hardcore than Ubuntu beats me, as they have the same possibilities, only Ubuntu makes the defaults so much nicer. At least Xubuntu does, imo.
Since 95, I've used Slackware, Redhat, Mandrake, Debian and Ubuntu, and tested a few others. And, Xubuntu is the best Linux-experience I've ever seen. It should come as no surprise that I recommend it wholeheartedly.
I'm not even affiliated with it, it's just very nice!
I don't get it. Compared to Slashdot, that conversation was quite meaningful.
1) Who are you? Slashdot: MICRO$OFT IS TEH SUXXOR
2) What are you planning to do today? Slashdot: IMNSHO, STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS
3) What kinds of things do you know? Slashdot: I FOR ONE WELCOME OUR COBOL-WRITING OVERLOARDS
4) What season is it? Slashdot: WHEN I WAS 3, I WROTE MY FIRST LISP-COMPILER BY MAKING THE HOLES IN THE PUNCHCARDS WITH MY GUMS ONLY Judge: Nevermind Slashdot: LEARN TO TYPE PROPELY, YOU PSYCHO!
5) Where do you call home? Slashdot: IANAL, BUT FIRST POST!
Slashdot Mirror
People are always angry when their business have no future.
> The article [lwn.net] is currently subscriber only and won't be visible to non-subscribers until next Tuesday, IIRC.
No problem, just right click the login-box and select "Login with BugMeNot".
You need Firefox and the BugMeNot-extension, though. Firefox can be found in your favorite repository or at http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/.
The BugMeNot extension is here: http://extensions.roachfiend.com/bugmenot.xpi
Actually, it's Kopps. Here's the Imdb-info: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0339230/
However offtopic, I agree that it's funny.
Thanks for your well-reasoned reply. After reading it thoroughly, I'm actually man enough to admit that you are completely right, and that I'm just angry for not having flash on my favorite platform. :)
Be well!
I think you're pulling statistics up of your hat. We both know that neither of us know how many are using 64-bit Linux for the desktop. I know many, including myself, who uses it for the desktop, but I don't have any hard statistics either. Nobody's asked me what I'm using, and you can't trust the user-agent strings from the browsers, so how can one know? I've never heard about any polls for this either.
Regardless of what the current situation might be, I'm convinced that 64-bit Linux is in growth for the desktop.
To sum it up, you're inventing statistics to support your claim. And furthermore, Flash is still not supported "in a browser, on a phone or wherever".
>We code in Laszlo's mixture of XML and Javascript, and it compiles that to Flash for rendering. The final >output may be in a browser, may be on a phone, or whatever.
:)
Except if you're using 64-bit *nix, where getting flash to work properly currently requires installing a 32-bit environment inside your 64-bit environment (chroot), and running your browser from there with the proprietary plugin from Macromedia. I don't know anyone who actually does this.
A good enough open source version of an swf-player might show up anytime soon, though.
Think about the children^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H LSB!
(They use RPM: http://freestandards.org/en/LSB)
> You say: "This is wrong. I've written source code in C# that used Gtk# and Mono. No behind-chasing, and
.Net, with MSFT tools, will often end up making use of
.Net is cross platform- by using Mono. Period.
.net copycat platform doesn't get attention,
.net copycat"-part, though. I use an open-source tool that I can use for whatever I like.
> pure open source." Well, the fact that you *can* write source code in C# that uses GTK
I not only can, this is the way I do it, and all people that use C# on Linux, that I know of.
> doesn't exclude the fact that an app written for
> Winforms and other code
Yes it does, as they don't often end up making use of Winforms, since it's still very alpha in Mono.
> that the Mono camp has to reverse-engineer and "behind-chase" forever, since they don't have control of the API or platform.
I agree with you that the Mono camp might do this, which must be a big disadvantage to them. Luckily, as a user of Mono, I don't have to relate to this. I use the tools without any loss of control. I don't behind-chase anything.
> That is what you're advocating for - and a Microsoft platform that you're indirectly promoting by
> perpetuating the myth that
I have never said such a thing. I'm advocating C# on Linux. Period.
> You can cry all you want and point fingers of blame at Java
I've never blamed Java for anything. I actually like Java as a language and a concept, even though it has some flaws. I think you're shooting the wrong person here.
> because your little Microsoft
Well, you're actually right about this. A google search show only 96,900,000 hits for Mono, 99,700,000 for C#, and 663,000,000 for Java. The trends are rising for C#, and falling for Java, though: http://google.com/trends?q=c%23%2C+java
But clearly, Java has more attention. I don't relate to the "little Microsoft
> but truth is, Java and Swing remains the best way to create cross-platform apps.
I don't care.
> And soon with Apache's open source java VM builds, you'll no longer have an excuse to complain about.
I still haven't complained about that, though, so you're not really speaking to the right person here.
To sum it up, you wrongly accuse me on a number of things and I still don't behind-chase anything.
> For the most part, consumer software can be divided into two camps: applications and tools. And almost
> universally, applications should be webapps, and tools should be high-performance client-side software.
Think of editing video, composing music, drawing illustrations, creating artwork and playing games. Should Quake have been a webapp? Is it a tool? Are games uncommon for cusumer software? Are applications like 3D studio max a tool or an app?
I think you need another camp.
"And without having to chase a Microsoft API from behind like it happens with Mono..."
This is wrong. I've written sourcecode in C# that used Gtk# and Mono. No behind-chasing, and pure open source.
If that are the main reasons for lousyness, I think I might buy one.
Look, there is a munchillion people out there, that have learned Java at uni or at work.
These people just ache for releasing their open source project in all it's open source gloryness, and dreams of having it included in all the major GNU/Linux/FreeBSD/*nux distros.
This is an enormous potential, that is destoyed by not having a version of Java included in all open nuxes, by default, that is easy to work with and works as they expect. Not to speak of extremely security-minded companies, that only work with open source.
And, as long as Sun's Java isn't proper open source, it is not going to be their version of Java that's running everywhere.
Why Sun doesn't see that this is where the problem lies, not with the actual looking at sourcecode, beats me.
There's a big difference between being marked as belonging to a group and being marked as an individual.
I am against RFID implants too, but...
I think the worst thing about RFID-tagging humans isn't the technology, but the associations. It instantly reminds me of the way they were tatooing numbers on the arms of death-camp victims during ww2.
I can't remember any positive setting, where people are "marked".
The big advantages of RFID-tagging people is best seen through the eyes of a totalitarian state.
Hey, we all have different reasons for damnation. No sweat.
I agree that they are about equal in readability. Python is briefer and nicer, but java tend to be more explisit and well organized. (But, I think System.out.println is overly explisit).
:)
However, as I'm sure you'll agree, the quality of the code is a trait of the programmers, not the languages, which was the original point I wished to get through.
public class HelloWorld
{
public static void main (String[] args)
{
System.out.println("Hello, world!");
}
}
compared to
print "Hello, world!"
The above code is not a result of the cleverness of the developers, but of how the languages are constructed. Now, which one is clearer and easier to read?
I can tell that you're not running Tiger.
Did anyone else have the reflex of doing cat /proc/cpuinfo?
Well, it is the most popular distro, at least at this page: http://distrowatch.com/
Try out the latest greatest Xubuntu, and I think you'll be surprised at how incredibly nice it is.
Why, for instance, Debian is supposed to be so much more hardcore than Ubuntu beats me, as they have the same possibilities, only Ubuntu makes the defaults so much nicer. At least Xubuntu does, imo.
Since 95, I've used Slackware, Redhat, Mandrake, Debian and Ubuntu, and tested a few others. And, Xubuntu is the best Linux-experience I've ever seen. It should come as no surprise that I recommend it wholeheartedly.
I'm not even affiliated with it, it's just very nice!
DirectX is Windows only, except through Wine.
I don't get it. Compared to Slashdot, that conversation was quite meaningful.
1) Who are you?
Slashdot: MICRO$OFT IS TEH SUXXOR
2) What are you planning to do today?
Slashdot: IMNSHO, STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS
3) What kinds of things do you know?
Slashdot: I FOR ONE WELCOME OUR COBOL-WRITING OVERLOARDS
4) What season is it?
Slashdot: WHEN I WAS 3, I WROTE MY FIRST LISP-COMPILER BY MAKING THE HOLES IN THE PUNCHCARDS WITH MY GUMS ONLY
Judge: Nevermind
Slashdot: LEARN TO TYPE PROPELY, YOU PSYCHO!
5) Where do you call home?
Slashdot: IANAL, BUT FIRST POST!
Wa's a bi't quic'k on the submit butto'n ther'e. :-)
It's a really bad sign that paren't isn't modded as funny.