"Hate to break it to you, but there are a lot of other places that would *love* to have US information than good ol' Osama. "
Hate to break it to you but the the US government is/has put out it's own distro for use in high security settings. (This kind of shoots that FUD down in flames all on it's own.)
Not to mention that the tinfoil hat crowd would only have to find just one of them and they would all be useless..and heavly looked for. Just more FUD nothing new here.
"What I don't have a problem with and encourage is proper labeling of media.. Adequate labeling is important to me as a consumer."
I don't know, for me I listen to a CD, movie, book, video game or whatever BEFORE I give it to my child. If I don't like it but have no special objection to it he gets it. I have a rational reasonable objection to it he does not get it. To me that is part of being part of a kids life. It is a counter balance for being able to act like a child in public with my son. But that is just parenting to me.....
Knows that the 10th Amendment was never meant to give some special supremacy to the states.
If you lean towards the belief in original intent, just read what the drafters said about the damn thing.
"The constitutions of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves" Thomas Jefferson
I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.-Thomas Jefferson
Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread.-Thomas Jefferson
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.-Thomas Jefferson
Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases..-Thomas Jefferson
You are correct that is why no matter how hard some members of the EU kicked and screamed the US would never be able to extradite a US citizen against his will. That is also in the constitution. Even if the feds signed it it would get shot down the first time it came to court.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. Meaning, everything completely left out in the Constitution. With modern interpretations, that's not much. The federal government has a lot of power.
No people think it has a lot of power much of what you are thinking about is assumed power. Think about this for a moment. The various government agencies could be met at a state border (figuratively or not so figuratively) with a copy of the constitution and a one-way ticket out of town. And just what would the federal government do about it? Just about the only stick the feds have to make a state cooperate is federal road funding. If someone doesn't want to leave a state in the custody of a federal marshal they don't have to unless a district (read state) court to makes them. Nowadays your statement holds truer then I like granted. However with any luck the free state project will provide an example of how to treat the federal government when it tries to throw it's non-existent weight around. Remember the federal government was handicapped by the founders ON PURPOSE! They deliberately did not give the federal government powers but for things that it was felt that a large distant government would be needed to do. Regulating intrastate commerce. The common defense, (military) conducting trade and such. So I guess we are both right and wrong after a fashion.
(And states are not supposed to have the most power in the country -- the federal government always trumps the states. Federal laws and the Constitution trump anything the states can come up with.)
Um no they are NOT
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
"Who the hell are the unthinking morons modding this crap insightful or interesting? At least somebody got the Flamebait right."
Whats a matter did someone get modded down?
"The fact is that anyone in power will stifle whatever they please. Or was Janet Jackson permitted her nipple exposure?"
No that is what the constitution is there for. Get it now?
"Jesus, you Americans and your so-called Free Speech and your worthless Constitution."
Well no bigotry there....You don't like it or us fuck off. See that is the down side of free speech. It mean anyone can express their opinion and not get arrested.
"Haven't you noticed that the Constitution is worth its weight in paper and nothing else?"
Want to bet? I am with my life. I have with my life and if I have to I will again.
"Haven't you noticed all the crap that's being done in the "land of the free" to remove those so-called freedoms?"
Not beyond the basics life liberty and the pursuing of happiness the right to peaceably assemble
"The US is no less censored nor restricted than France or Germany, it's merely done in different ways and in different spheres."
Actually it is. The neo nazis even have marches and web sites here. Because no matter how asinine the thought they are allowed to express it.
States are supposed to have most of the power in the country. That includes passing laws. Many states have removed them most don't enforce them if they do. It is a guaranteed legal fight if they do. I am reminded of a case where the defense lawyer started off by demanding that anyone who had had sex i other then the missionary position including masturbation be removed from the jury.
"Funny how y'all defend the first amendment and forget about the right to due process. IIRC, the right to due process has been lost with Patriot Act I & II, and the right against unlawful search and siezure is also lost in said Patriot Acts as well."
Um care to tell me how you know how I felt about that? Answer you can't.
But threaten the first amendment and the very best thing that can be hoped for is armed insurrection. The very worst is outbreaks of protesting and people being arrested for protesting. And that protesting being labeled hate speech. At that point government (note government not party) change becomes necessary.
However, just what is the term "freedom of speech" defined as?
We've already got several example of expressions that are not tolerated under US law:
Slander/Libel: You can't spread false information about somebody else, because their right to not have their reputation unfairly soiled trumps your right to free speech. This isn't a crime, but it can be a very expensive civil tort case. False reports: You can't spread false information that puts others in danger, or wastes government resources. Public safety is more important that your right to free speech. Perjury: When dealing with the government, you must always speak the truth. Lies become criminal when under oath. Somebody else's right to a fair trial is more important your right to free speech.
You seem to be intelligent enough to understand the difference between harming someone with untruths and telling the truth that may harm someone. One is attacking someone the other is something they are responsible for. Something like yelling fire in a theater is threatening/attacking everyone in that theater. Neither of you examples justifies banning the right to express your opinion. No matter how stupid of hateful that opinion is to you. Lets say that all speech or print or html that talks republicans/democrats or the political party of your choice is labeled hate speech. I am willing to bet your opinion would change in a heart beat.
Want to bet? You might be surprised.... I for one will not let it happen. There are depths and then their are depths. Not that article not that document.
Relax everyone this is just another attempt to draw a line through the little line
Bill of Rights Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
It will never happen in my life time. Or it might be time to change governments
Just thought of this the top speed of the SR-71 was declasified by then. They had even let it get into the guniness book as the fastest production aircraft. So why take the logs? Why worry? #2 or #3 I would aggree with but I still wonder..:)
Good points however I disagree with you on the point about the Government keeping secrets.
A Do you know when the SR 71 started flying? Hint they admitted the plain existed in the 80's Answer The Korean war they were flying photo recons by the end of the war.
B When did they start flying the "Stealth Bomber"? Hint they admitted it existed in the early 90's When I had just left the Air Force they were being whispered about. Say Mid 80's Of cource they called them YF-12As back then.... The government can be very good about keeping secrets if they really need to be. But it does happen that someone finds out and can't resist bragging about it. That kind of stuff give security officers peptic ulcers. I mean think about it for a moment. The kind of stuff that the government will classify is usually pretty boring. And a lot of it has to with privacy for the people involved. But truely black projects can and do happen as the government sees fit. To the best of my digging around Area 51 has been in opperation for a heck of a long time. I think it was the around the end of WWII. That is not to bad.:)
The consensus at this point is that it doesn't exist. Or if it *did* exist, it was canceled and doesn't exist any more."
It was left on a oversight list by mistake. I am sure the project has been renamed however, I am sure it exists. Why on earth would our government willing blind themselves? If (I freely admit I am guessing here) the little incedent in California was what I think it was there was evidence of how fast it would do... I remember a few years back several Earthquake monitering stations picked up a shallow earthquake accross a unknowen fault line. Shortly after reporting it the recieved a visit from a three letter security agency (don't remember the one). And they took the logs and other data and swore the people in the stations to secrecy about the incident. I have alwayse wanted to ask a phicys major what speed a plane would have to be doing to create a ground shock of about 2.3 on the Richter scale. Just my two cents but I am betting that was the Aurora and the hotshot flying it was to low to the ground when he started across the country...
"So, who would one go after if the plumbing job sprung a leak and ruined twenty grand worth of housing?"
Me I would go after the people that I had doing my quality control. If they were doing their job correctly any shoddy workmanship would have been caught before the virus....I mean the leak started and cost money.
Does that include the ones run over with tanks? And how many people were protesting for freedom at that time? Risking the very serious and demonstrably fatal repercussions that can incur?
"True, there are restrictions, but it is far from being as bad as the US press would have you believe."
I really don't believe I am reading this... A member of my family has recently adopted children from China. She spent two weeks being interviewed and bribing government officials her US contact warned her to have about 10,000 in US dollars for bribes. Anyway she was there. They were followed around the entire time by a 'cultural advisor' that was wearing guns. Lots of freedom there... Any government (I do mean ANY) That is willing to machine gun (or run them over with tanks or whatever) it's citizens has lost the right to rule, in my not so humble opinion.
2. A government that is actually concerned with the wellbeing of their population./me Jaw hits floor / Um right...... ok dude whatever
3. Government officials that can think and even add numbers. Of course they know that restrictions of any kind will upset some people; it is a matter of striking the right balance in the current situation, and in China there are a lot of people who very sceptical towards this flood of rubbish, as they perceive it, from America.
And a great deal of people that want to be able to make up their own minds. It is just to bad that their "caring" government as you attempt to paint it is willing to kill them for trying to be able to. Oh yes before I forget care to try to reconcile that "caring" Government with what is happening in Tibet?
"So a U.S.-Isreal team develops. Now. someone will develop energy absorbing/reflecting/deflecting/whatever missiles."
Right.... I don't know I personally would like to have the most updated hardware I can if I have to go into battle. You can carry sticks and stones if you want I want the most deadly equipment and as much of it as I can carry.
And to your second point. No amount of money will help religious fever. Remember anyone who tells you that tying a bomb to your chest and blowing up civilians will get you attended in the next world by a pack of virgins and they will give lots of money to your family is..
A Not your friend B Probably lying on at least one count C Certifiable D Someone who is always happy to sacrifice someone else
Note that if you leave a heavy object in your driveway and don't mind a little damage to your car they will just have a tape of you bumping whatever. No so hard to go around..
Slashdot Mirror
"Hate to break it to you, but there are a lot of other places that would *love* to have US information than good ol' Osama. "
Hate to break it to you but the the US government is/has put out it's own distro for use in high security settings. (This kind of shoots that FUD down in flames all on it's own.)
Not to mention that the tinfoil hat crowd would only have to find just one of them and they would all be useless..and heavly looked for.
Just more FUD nothing new here.
"What I don't have a problem with and encourage is proper labeling of media.. Adequate labeling is important to me as a consumer."
I don't know, for me I listen to a CD, movie, book, video game or whatever BEFORE I give it to my child. If I don't like it but have no special objection to it he gets it. I have a rational reasonable objection to it he does not get it.
To me that is part of being part of a kids life. It is a counter balance for being able to act like a child in public with my son. But that is just parenting to me.....
"yes, remember, no software is made outide of the US of A"
Cough *Bullshit* Cough
Can you say Mandrake?
Can you say Turbo Linux?
Their is tons of software that is devoloped out side the USA.
I could google for more but so could you.
The hard part was makeing up my mind to mod or reply.....
Knows that the 10th Amendment was never meant to give some special supremacy to the states.
... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases. .-Thomas Jefferson
If you lean towards the belief in original intent, just read what the drafters said about the damn thing.
"The constitutions of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves" Thomas Jefferson
I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.-Thomas Jefferson
Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread.-Thomas Jefferson
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.-Thomas Jefferson
Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have
How about the above for a few?
Treaties can't trump the constitution.
You are correct that is why no matter how hard some members of the EU kicked and screamed the US would never be able to extradite a US citizen against his will. That is also in the constitution. Even if the feds signed it it would get shot down the first time it came to court.
No people think it has a lot of power much of what
you are thinking about is assumed power.
Think about this for a moment. The various government agencies
could be met at a state border (figuratively or not so figuratively) with a
copy of the constitution and a one-way ticket out of town. And just what would the federal government
do about it? Just about the only stick
the feds have to make a state cooperate is federal road funding. If someone doesn't want to leave a state in
the custody of a federal marshal they don't have to unless a district (read
state) court to makes them. Nowadays
your statement holds truer then I like granted. However with any luck the free state project will provide an
example of how to treat the federal government when it tries to throw it's
non-existent weight around. Remember
the federal government was handicapped by the founders ON PURPOSE! They
deliberately did not give the federal government powers but for things that it
was felt that a large distant government would be needed to do. Regulating intrastate commerce. The common defense, (military) conducting trade
and such. So I guess we are both right and wrong after a fashion.
(And states are not supposed to have the most power in the country -- the federal government always trumps the states. Federal laws and the Constitution trump anything the states can come up with.)
Um no they are NOT
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
"Who the hell are the unthinking morons modding this crap insightful or interesting? At least somebody got the Flamebait right."
Whats a matter did someone get modded down?
"The fact is that anyone in power will stifle whatever they please. Or was Janet Jackson permitted her nipple exposure?"
No that is what the constitution is there for. Get it now?
"Jesus, you Americans and your so-called Free Speech and your worthless Constitution."
Well no bigotry there....You don't like it or us fuck off. See that is the down side of free speech. It mean anyone can express their opinion and not get arrested.
"Haven't you noticed that the Constitution is worth its weight in paper and nothing else?"
Want to bet? I am with my life. I have with my life and if I have to I will again.
"Haven't you noticed all the crap that's being done in the "land of the free" to remove those so-called freedoms?"
Not beyond the basics life liberty and the pursuing of happiness the right to peaceably assemble
"The US is no less censored nor restricted than France or Germany, it's merely done in different ways and in different spheres."
Actually it is. The neo nazis even have marches and web sites here. Because no matter how asinine the thought they are allowed to express it.
States are supposed to have most of the power in the country. That includes passing laws. Many states have removed them most don't enforce them if they do. It is a guaranteed legal fight if they do. I am reminded of a case where the defense lawyer started off by demanding that anyone who had had sex i other then the missionary position including masturbation be removed from the jury.
Case closed.
"Funny how y'all defend the first amendment and forget about the right to due process. IIRC, the right to due process has been lost with Patriot Act I & II, and the right against unlawful search and siezure is also lost in said Patriot Acts as well."
Um care to tell me how you know how I felt about that? Answer you can't.
But threaten the first amendment and the very best thing that can be hoped for is armed insurrection. The very worst is outbreaks of protesting and people being arrested for protesting. And that protesting being labeled hate speech. At that point government (note government not party) change becomes necessary.
However, just what is the term "freedom of speech" defined as?
We've already got several example of expressions that are not tolerated under US law:
Slander/Libel: You can't spread false information about somebody else, because their right to not have their reputation unfairly soiled trumps your right to free speech. This isn't a crime, but it can be a very expensive civil tort case.
False reports: You can't spread false information that puts others in danger, or wastes government resources. Public safety is more important that your right to free speech.
Perjury: When dealing with the government, you must always speak the truth. Lies become criminal when under oath. Somebody else's right to a fair trial is more important your right to free speech.
You seem to be intelligent enough to understand the difference between harming someone with untruths and telling the truth that may harm someone. One is attacking someone the other is something they are responsible for. Something like yelling fire in a theater is threatening/attacking everyone in that theater. Neither of you examples justifies banning the right to express your opinion. No matter how stupid of hateful that opinion is to you. Lets say that all speech or print or html that talks republicans/democrats or the political party of your choice is labeled hate speech. I am willing to bet your opinion would change in a heart beat.
Not in my life time
*Disclaimer one never knows how long or short their life may be but I strenuously say again not in my life time.
Want to bet? You might be surprised....
I for one will not let it happen. There are depths and then their are depths. Not that article not that document.
All right everyone we need to make some additions the Constitution here
The words and this time we really mean it will be appended to each article of the Constitution and the bill of rights
And a list of penalties for attempting to break them, and enforce them
Relax everyone this is just another attempt to draw a line through the little line
Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
It will never happen in my life time.
Or it might be time to change governments
"It the parent's responsability to teach their kids right from wrong! Video games do NOT teach our children how to carjack and... ummm shoot "
OK I will bite, how do you get from learning data to learning that it is ok to commiting felonys again? I must have missed something here...
Just thought of this the top speed of the SR-71 was declasified by then. They had even let it get into the guniness book as the fastest production aircraft. So why take the logs? :)
Why worry? #2 or #3 I would aggree with but I still wonder..
Good points however I disagree with you on the point about the Government keeping secrets.
:)
A Do you know when the SR 71 started flying?
Hint they admitted the plain existed in the 80's
Answer The Korean war they were flying photo recons by the end of the war.
B When did they start flying the "Stealth Bomber"?
Hint they admitted it existed in the early 90's
When I had just left the Air Force they were being whispered about. Say Mid 80's Of cource they called them YF-12As back then....
The government can be very good about keeping secrets if they really need to be. But it does happen that someone finds out and can't resist bragging about it. That kind of stuff give security officers peptic ulcers. I mean think about it for a moment. The kind of stuff that the government will classify is usually pretty boring. And a lot of it has to with privacy for the people involved. But truely black projects can and do happen as the government sees fit.
To the best of my digging around Area 51 has been in opperation for a heck of a long time. I think it was the around the end of WWII. That is not to bad.
The consensus at this point is that it doesn't exist. Or if it *did* exist, it was canceled and doesn't exist any more."
It was left on a oversight list by mistake. I am sure the project has been renamed however, I am sure it exists. Why on earth would our government willing blind themselves? If (I freely admit I am guessing here) the little incedent in California was what I think it was there was evidence of how fast it would do... I remember a few years back several Earthquake monitering stations picked up a shallow earthquake accross a unknowen fault line. Shortly after reporting it the recieved a visit from a three letter security agency (don't remember the one). And they took the logs and other data and swore the people in the stations to secrecy about the incident. I have alwayse wanted to ask a phicys major what speed a plane would have to be doing to create a ground shock of about 2.3 on the Richter scale. Just my two cents but I am betting that was the Aurora and the hotshot flying it was to low to the ground when he started across the country...
"So, who would one go after if the plumbing job sprung a leak and ruined twenty grand worth of housing?"
Me I would go after the people that I had doing my quality control. If they were doing their job correctly any shoddy workmanship would have been caught before the virus....I mean the leak started and cost money.
It says All you base ....
Arrghh I finally could not resist posting a base joke (*BANG*)
Does that include the ones run over with tanks?
... A member of my family has recently adopted children from China. She spent two weeks being interviewed and bribing government officials her US contact warned her to have about 10,000 in US dollars for bribes. Anyway she was there. They were followed around the entire time by a 'cultural advisor' that was wearing guns. Lots of freedom there... Any government (I do mean ANY)
/me Jaw hits floor / Um right...... ok dude whatever
And how many people were protesting for freedom at that time?
Risking the very serious and demonstrably fatal repercussions that can incur?
"True, there are restrictions, but it is far from being as bad as the US press would have you believe."
I really don't believe I am reading this
That is willing to machine gun (or run them over with tanks or whatever) it's citizens has lost the right to rule, in my not so humble opinion.
2. A government that is actually concerned with the wellbeing of their population.
3. Government officials that can think and even add numbers.
Of course they know that restrictions of any kind will upset some people; it is a matter of striking the right balance in the current situation, and in China there are a lot of people who very sceptical towards this flood of rubbish, as they perceive it, from America.
And a great deal of people that want to be able to make up their own minds.
It is just to bad that their "caring" government as you attempt to paint it is willing to kill them for trying to be able to. Oh yes before I forget care to try to reconcile that "caring"
Government with what is happening in Tibet?
"So a U.S.-Isreal team develops. Now. someone will develop energy absorbing /reflecting /deflecting/whatever missiles."
Right.... I don't know I personally would like to have the most updated hardware I can if I have to go into battle. You can carry sticks and stones if you want I want the most deadly equipment and as much of it as I can carry.
And to your second point.
No amount of money will help religious fever.
Remember anyone who tells you that tying a bomb to your chest and blowing up civilians will get you attended in the next world by a pack of virgins and they will give lots of money to your family is..
A Not your friend
B Probably lying on at least one count
C Certifiable
D Someone who is always happy to sacrifice someone
else
I don't know just my two bits
WTF?
:)
Two Words "Frank Sinatra"
Note that if you leave a heavy object in your driveway and don't mind a little damage to your car they will just have a tape of you bumping whatever. No so hard to go around..