RIAA Dumps Unsold Inventory to Settle Anti-Trust Case

theodp writes "A music windfall promised to WA public schools and libraries from last year's $143M anti-trust settlement with the recording industry wasn't all it was cracked up to be. While WA got 115,241 music CDs out of the deal, folks aren't quite sure what to do with the odd collection, which includes 387 CDs containing explicit lyrics by Big Pun, 310 copies of Will Smith's Willenium and 48 copies of Spooky Scary Sounds for Halloween from Martha Stewart."

Comments

This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[garcia]

They could use the Big Pun CDs as part of English class and how not to speak. Classics such as "Nigga Shit", "You Was Wrong", and "Off Wit His Head" are excellent examples of poor grammar. So it's obvious that the RIAA was thinking about our school children there.

The Spooky Scary soundtrack can be used to frighten children away from prison. "Listen to Martha screaming as she is tackled by larger more 'friendly' inmates!" Again, point for the RIAA.

114 copies of Meredith Brooks' "Blurring the Edges," which includes the Grammy-nominated song, "Bitch."

It was nominated for a Grammy so it must be good! The RIAA was doing them a favor obviously.

Farley's regional district, which covers 35 school districts, received 1,355 copies of Whitney Houston singing "The Star-Spangled Banner." The hit single, which Houston sang before the 1991 Super Bowl at the height of the Gulf War, was 5 percent of the district's cache.

Yes, let's promote a current drug abuser with a husband that likes to stay in prison. That's the sort of lesson we want to be teaching our children. "Look kids, you too can be a successful musician *and* be a crackhead!"

While these examples are a small part of the 115,000 total CDs I still have to say, "way to go RIAA, you are corrupting our children with crappy music in stores, radio, and now even in the classroom! Thanks!"

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[ianpm]

Is it just me, or does this remind anyone of the sort of thing that would happen in The Simpsons? I am amazed that the hard working people of America tolerate the kind of crap that RIAA pull. Great story though.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[garcia]

yeah, it does... Something inherently good going inherently wrong: Burns Recycling.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[snjoseph]

Oh snap, where's the Wu? Remember what Ol' Dirty said:

I don't know how you all see it, but when it comes to the children, Wu-Tang is for the children. We teach the children. Puffy is good, but Wu-Tang is the best.

Also, kids today need to learn about such topics as

• Shaolin
• Killer Beez (on a swarm!)
• The Brooklyn Zoo
• Dollar Dollar Bills

Shame on ya, RIAA! Shame on ya!

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

I am amazed that the hard working people of America tolerate the kind of crap that RIAA pull.

What do you think they should do about it exactly?

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny how the RIAA complains about file sharing since it is "giving works away" when they obviously have LOTS of crapola they can't even give away themselves.

I wonder if they'll sue the schools for not paying for the cds afterwards.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[dasmegabyte]

I don't know how many times I axed you guys not to nitpick on the grammar tip, but I'm fiend to break my linguistic foot off in your ass if you don't cut it. The syntax of spoken English language is not set in stone, nor is it even agreed upon by the majority of speakers. The rules of usage are set by the users and are in constant flux. Furthermore, the stylistic approach to language taken by groups attempting to assert their identity through language should not be outcried as "how not to speak," as this is insulting and devisive. Remember: the British look down on our use of "elevator" and misspelling of "color" and "civilisation."

Big Pun is not an example of how NOT to speak. It is more an example of how TO speak, if you want to be respected in the future career path of successful emceeing. This is how dialectic speech should be taught -- use "You was wrong" in the rap game, and "you were wrong" in the world of business. In the world of politics, use "you were wrong, and that's why everybody on your side of the argument is a terrorist loving traitor." It's all about the best tool for the job.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[devilspgd]

Go down to the RIAA's offices with a newspaper.

Say whatever you need to say to sit down with someone employeed by the RIAA. Lie a little if needed.

Roll up the newspaper, smack them over the head and say "No! Bad RIAA!"

Leave. Never buy another RIAA product again.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[wwest4]

+5 Insightful.

I've always tried to teach my kids that word is, indeed, bond. And that the correct term for an interracial person of black and white descent is "dalmatian." And finally, the ODB/BBJ creation theorem: God made Dirt, and Dirt bust y'ass.

Quite.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

In the world of politics, use "you were wrong, and that's why everybody on your side of the argument is a terrorist-loving traitor." It's all about the best tool for the job.

Surely it would be: You were wrong and that is why everyone who was on your side of the argument is a terrorist-loving traitor.

Or do you mean: Surely it would be: You were wrong and that is why everyone who was on your side of the argument was a terrorist-loving traitor.

Or perhaps you mean: You are wrong and that is why everybody who is on your side of the argument is a terrorist-loving traitor.

Either way your use of a hanging comma is revolting.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

Farley's regional district, which covers 35 school districts, received 1,355 copies of Whitney Houston singing "The Star-Spangled Banner." The hit single, which Houston sang before the 1991 Super Bowl at the height of the Gulf War, was 5 percent of the district's cache.

I believe the children are our future. We should teach them well and let them lead the way. It's up to us to show them the beauty the possess inside...

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Warlok]

Big Pun is not an example of how NOT to speak. It is more an example of how TO speak

IMHO, Big Pun is an example of the fractionalization of the American culture. With businesses, government agencies, and schools trying to promote homogenization and equality for all, culturally we're breaking into distinct groups with very little cross-over and intermingling. The fact that it continues to happen despite the efforts of teachers and government leaders tells me either a) this is nromal natural process (like tides) that can't be stopped, or b) it's an unnatural process that is more powerful than the people who want to stop it.

I'm not a sociologist, but I've seen them on TV.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[dorlthed]

Bust shots at Big Ben like we got time ta kill

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[EastCoastSurfer]

Don't forget probably the most important lesson from the WU.

CREAM - Cash Rules Everything Around Me

IMHO, Method Man was probably the best rapper in the original WU-Tang.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[sielwolf]

Screw that. The true knowledging of the Wu-tang is to find out all about the 5% Nation!

How else are you going to find out that all white men are the nefarious product of an evil black scientist, Yakub?

Peace to all my Gods, Earths, Seeds! From ya cipher all power derives!

Actually Masta Killa's No Said Date is turning out to be the best hip-hop release of the year... besting Pretty Toney, Madvillainy. The new V. Vaughn (Venomous Villain) may turn the tables...

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[dasmegabyte]

Feel revolted if you must. Those quotation marks on either side of the statement are indicators of a spoken phrase. The comma indicates a brief pause. It is not meant to be correct according to standard written grammatical regulations. I could have used an elipses or a dash but I chose a comma because I happen to like commas.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

And that the correct term for an interracial person of black and white descent is "dalmatian."

I always *think* Halfrican, myself. But I don't say it unless I really know my audience.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

> culturally we're breaking into distinct groups with very little cross-over and intermingling.

I used to think that way too until I talked to a Japanese kid on a skateboard wearing a Public Enemy shirt who talked about how much he loved Nine Inch Nails and John Coltrane.

Trust me. We're intermingling...

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[mr_sas]

hmm i think ghost and raekwon are far better personally. out of meths' league. course nothing beats 36 chambers

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[dnoyeb]

From experience, one can not have two different dialects of the same language and maintain seperation. When one is pushed to speak from his heart, he will drift into the dialect he is most comfortable and familiar with. It may not play well with speakers of the other dialect.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know how many times I axed you guys not to nitpick on the grammar tip, but I'm fiend to break my linguistic foot off in your ass if you don't cut it. The syntax of spoken English language is not set in stone, nor is it even agreed upon by the majority of speakers. The rules of usage are set by the users and are in constant flux. Furthermore, the stylistic approach to language taken by groups attempting to assert their identity through language should not be outcried as "how not to speak," as this is insulting and devisive. Remember: the British look down on our use of "elevator" and misspelling of "color" and "civilisation."

Knowing how to speak properly and being too fscking lazy to learn how to speak properly are two entirely different topics.

If you're too lazy to learn to speak in an accepted manner, then odds are that you're going to be a troublesome employee when it comes to dress code and professional conduct as well.

It's the old adage... if you're not faithful in little things, why should I trust you with bigger things?

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Lord Kano]

The Spooky Scary soundtrack can be used to frighten children away from prison. ?Listen to Martha screaming as she is tackled by larger more ?friendly? inmates!? Again, point for the RIAA.

This would qualify as audio pornography.

LK

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's true. I spend a good portion of 4th grade learning that the Eu Tang Clan ain't nothin' to fuck with.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[the chao goes mu]

"By-- that; logic. This (is) a -- perfectly, reasonable... sentence:"

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Tony-A]

fractionalization of the American culture

Considering it's the pop-music scene, probably more the case that each generation of teenagers is seeking its identity, something unique to them. Pop music fits the bill nicely since it wasn't in existence last year. Doing better than last year's is a losing proposition, it has to find some way, any way, to be different. The cure of course is for the current generation's "in" crowd to decide that pop music isn't hip (however the current generation now spells it) any more. If they realize that they are being played for a sucker by the RIAA et al, just might happen.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[dasmegabyte]

Oh, you mean like how a person who misspells the word "fuck" as a form of droll computational humor might be unfunny about other things as well? After all, you can apparently judge an entire personality based on a single detail.

Lighten up. I've met hundreds of people who speak one way in business or on the phone, and quite another in private. I don't know what the "odds are" that they could pull this off effectively, but I do know this: if you were to eliminate everybody in this company who was lax in speech or dress, you'd have nobody left. And we've been successful for 16 years. It may not be accepted to occasionallt tell a customer "Listen, that whole part of the program is screwed up, it's not going to be fixed overnight," or to tell the boss "there's not way that shit can work," but it's apparently quite effective.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[RosebudLTD]

It's all about the benjamens.

The RIAA is complaining about a loss of income, when one of us downloads a song for free, instead of paying for it.

The crap they handed out to the schools does NOT fall into that catagory. Who the hell would pay for any of that?

As someone else pointed out, getting rid of dead inventory like that was profitable (they no longer have to store it, and they get a tax write off).

So, once more, it's all about the benjamens.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

because if you spell something wrong your obviously going to say that way to?

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[dasmegabyte]

It is. I can even pronounce it for you if you like. Using improper grammar or spelling to indicate accents or modes of speech is a common practice among writers, one that can often effectively convey meaning as well as pronunciation.

"If I write loike this, 'oo dyaspose I am emulightin'? Wot sort of spaitch dya 'ere when you ride it? Kinyou hair a nyoo accent I am cratin'?"

My linguistics and grammar prof hated this sort of thing, because it really is quite racist to think that other cultures use variant spellings of words due to the way they pronounce them. That hasn't stopped just about every writer in the twentieth century from doing so...heck, even Shakespearre used to play on mispronunciation and poor grammar.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Simonetta]

I still have to say, ?way to go RIAA, you are corrupting our children with crappy music in stores, radio, and now even in the classroom! Thanks!?

I still don't understand why the RIAA has so much political power when so much of the product that they sell is so clearly anti-social. Much rap and death-metal is clearly the results of disturbed individuals and a massively disfunctional culture.

I'm amazed that people who chose the appearance in public of gangster rappers and death-rockers complain that stangers are not inclined to assume that they are civilized human beings. They assume that this is prejudice and racism.

No, it's not. It's the result of a focused and unrelenting advertising campaign to sell rap music by portraying young males in hooded sweatshirts and other gangster fashions as the most violent and unpredictably disfunctional people on the planet.

And it has worked. Be a young male African-American with a backward baseball cap and go anywhere on earth. People will treat you like shit and just assume that you're a monster. It will take decades to reverse this new stereotype of hip-hop culture.

And what did young people of color get from all this negative stereotype casting? Nothing. A few individuals got big enough record contract advances to piss away on weird jewelery and pathetic SUVs. But nearly all the profits went to middle-aged white corporate executives, who would never let hip-hop individuals into their personal lives or social class environment.

Step'n Fetch'it is rolling in his grave.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Colazar]

From experience, one can not have two different dialects of the same language and maintain seperation.

Actually this is untrue. People are very adept at code-switching, which is using the proper dialect at the proper time. The only time we tend to have problems is when we don't know the code to switch into (or don't quite understand what makes one appropriate over another).

Although, depending on what you mean by "pushed to speak form (the) heart," you might have a very good point. A very famous sociolinguist (whose name escapes me at the moment) would always ask his interview subjects to describe an incident where they almost died. Reliving the stress of that moment would often cause them to revert to their base dialect, which is what he was interested in analyzing. The amount of stress you have to put on someone to reliably get them to go into that dialect is pretty incredible, however.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy slashhack! That was one of the most succinct, well thought-out, insightful comments that I've seen on slashdot. You nailed it. (claps)

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Slime-dogg]

I judge people by their usage of grammar. I have a lower opinion of those who choose not to use the language in the way that it is supposed to be used. Your assertion that stylistic usage should be accepted as correct is pure bullshit. If you choose to speak the language in an incorrect manner, even if it is a matter of style, then you are still speaking the language in an incorrect manner. If I encounter you speaking incorrectly, I will think that you are an idiot.

Style has nothing to do with grammar. A language would not be defined as such, were that not true. The term "grammar" means "a set of rules that give structure to a language."

As it is, I believe the biggest issue is pronounciation, not grammar. If someone says "Gimme dat," it is a grammatically correct mispronounciation of "Give me that." Poor speakers are the source of such lovely phrases as "Axe me a question" and "Whaddup wid dat?"

Of course, I enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing, but I do have an opinion on this particular issue.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

it's not that everyone hates microsoft, Its that microsft seems like it would actually do this. IMHO this type of behavior is above some of the stuff microsoft has done in the past.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[ari_j]

even Shakespearre used to play on mispronunciation and poor grammar.

Shakespeare, aside from being able to spell his own name, was a master of correct pronunciation and grammar, as well as a master of the iambic pentameter he wrote in. He took advantage of both areas of expertise to make his plays on mispronunciation (by enforcing an incorrect pronunciation using meter) and grammar.

It's true that some rappers are masters of the language and do the same thing that Shakespeare did. It's also true that some rappers have a fantastic sense of wit and can write puns like nobody's business. However, this is not a universal trait shared by all rappers, just as not all of Shakespeare's contemporaries shared his talent and abilities.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[abischof]

Much rap and death-metal is clearly the results of disturbed individuals and a massively disfunctional culture.

You are aware that much of death metal (and likely rap) is an act -- a stage persona?

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[dasmegabyte]

You are more than welcome to look down your nose at anybody for any reason. You're only asserting a biological tendency towards competetive and classification.

However, I think it's important that you realize others will do this to you as well. And since the majority of people speak incorrectly, they're liable to look at you as though you have a stick up your ass for trying to enunciate speech flawlessly, and some might wonder why you don't spend this extra editorial energy coming up with better points.

After all, the term "grammar" means "a set of rules that give structure to a language" only because those are the words written in the dictionary. It could just as easily mean "a set of inexplicable, irrational and unfair restrictions on the open use of language imposed by elitists for the sole purpose of judging others who fail to recognize them."

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[monkeydo]

According to the article the settlement state that, "Titles had to be on a Billboard chart for at least 26 weeks and had to peak in the top half of the chart." I can't think of many CD's fitting that description that aren't crapola.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[AndyChrist]

You know, those inexplicable, irrational, and unfair restrictions DO keep the language mutually intelligible.

Perhaps that's why it is now and has usually been the english spoken more by the wealthier segments of the english-speaking population that has been considered "proper." It's good for business to be able to understand each other.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, I have a few friends that are Dalmation and they wouldn't appreciate your mistaking their name. While I'm sure there are some Dalmations of black and white descent, the majority would by far be Yugoslavian Croats from the Coast of Dalmatia.

You thought you were joking, but they actually do call themselves Dalmations.

You learn something everyday on Slashdot.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[cheekyboy]

if a black guy did that in australia, people would think wow, he must be some hollywood movie star or something and treat em like gods and respect.

Yes we are human , come visit, the 15hr flight is long eough to get drunk twice and walk out without a hangover. :)

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

don't tell me "wigger" isn't cool any more...

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[loraksus]

Technically, if you want to use a newspaper as a weapon, you want to roll it up and thrust with the edge, like a knife. You can cause internal injuries fairly easily this way, especially if you aim below the ribs and thrust up.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[loraksus]

Personally, I'm amazed by the shock and surprise that seems to be present when one of these many articles get posted. It's almost like people think this isn't the expected behavior of this company or that company or that cabal.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[macdaddy357]

This reminds me of ass holes who take their garbage to Goodwill or The Salvation Army Thrift Store, dump it, and call that donating to charity. All the record labels which are members of the RIAA need to be boycotted into oblivion. Don't buy CDs.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[BlueJay465]

actually, the most well known term for a person of African and European descent is Mulatto

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Paladin144]

I judge people by their usage of grammar

I judge people by their name, Slime-dogg. And you, I'm said to say, have one too many Gs in your name. I'm afraid this certifies you as a complete and total moron.

Your assertion that stylistic usage should be accepted as correct is pure bullshit.

I also judge people based on the vulgar words they use. You are clearly an irredeemable, ignorant piece of street trash. Go back to your crappy apartment and pick fleas off yourself.

I am totally kidding of course. Unlike certain people, I do NOT judge people based on such purely superficial qualities. I try to go deeper, and judge them based on their personality and deeds.

Modern grammar and spelling conventions have an element of fascism in them. And, dare I say it, classism and racism. Isn't that what this is really about, dogg? You don't like the way black people talk.

Get over yourself.

There is no correct language. Language is about communication.

If you can't understand that, it's not because of my poor grammar. You have some personal issues to work out. I also suggest you google for some info on the history and evolution of the English language.

Oh no! The language police are coming to get me! I used "google" as a verb!!!

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[stor]

A perfectly cromulent retort.

Cheers
Stor

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Lemmy Caution]

Completely wrong. The world is far less fractionalized (um?) than it used to be, the US included. The cultural barriers between black Americans in the South, Chinese workers in California, even people in different classes in the same place, used to be far higher and less permeable than they are now. Black english used to be even less like "standard" english, when it was a pidgen, then later a criolle/patois used among slaves.

Mass media is removing many regional accents, as well. The bland part-western, part-Midwestern accent that developed when displaced Okies moved to Los Angeles is now the standard accent of American TV, and thus of much of the English speaking world.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[hobbsbutcher]

Hey, because of Whitney Houston's drug problems, my mom got to sit second-row at the Academy Awards a couple years ago. Whitney and her hubby don't show up, so they pick my mom and some other guy, who are both there as seat fillers, to fill the empty second-row seats for the whole show. (The Academy doesn't want to show empty seats on TV)
See kids, drugs can make neat things happen, albeit for other people.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[upsidedown_duck]

culturally we're breaking into distinct groups with very little cross-over and intermingling

Well, I think one difference now is that people more often choose to segregate themselves into a particular group rather than society making their choice for them. The various sub-cultures I see now are primarily delineated by fashion and language than law or fear, and relatively few people today believe that any particular human sub-species is better or worse than any other.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[accelleron]

err... the point here was to bitch-smack the RIAA. Leaving it with one employee less, while a noble and useful endeavor, would make some people feel sorry for them. I therefore suggest continuing the boycott-riaa.com sticker campaign and the not buying their products campaign. Beating the bastards with newspapers is an amusing waste of our natural resources.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[accelleron]

It's not neccessarily that people did not expect this from the RIAA. Instead, people expecting something from the RIAA (and not getting anything to flame them for for 2 days) are flame-happy when the RIAA takes it's next shovelful of dirt out of what is to become its grave.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[accelleron]

At this point, I'm having a hard time deciding which they would have a harder time giving away... Martha Stewart or "Willenium".

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[accelleron]

You forgot something: In the world of George Bush, use "You were wrong, and that's why you were hiding nuculear weapons in Iraq

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn mods. This is the shit Microsoft does. How many settlements have been done with Microsoft's software? They do this to schools all the time. It further locks people into Microsoft software, when the point was to give other people a fair chance at trying something new. That was not a random potshot. Ass.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[accelleron]

AFAIK, pop music hasn't changed much... from the squeaky wails of Michael Jackson in the eighties (before he became a convicted pedophile) to the squeaky wails of Britney Spears and Avril LaVigne, pop music has been more of a unifying force in music culture than a diversifying one, though the particular idols rotate every two weeks or so. On the other hand, music like [hard] rap and extreme forms of rock (read: Disturbed, Slipknot) have been oriented towards the socially alienated, whereas classical music has always been more of a status symbol than a distict group-oriented style. And please, don't even get me started on techno.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[accelleron]

I completely agree with Colazar on this, from personal experience. Being a white person living in a black area of New York City, and working in a business-oriented enviroment, I commonly notice myself wearing proper attire (and using proper slurs/profanities) when around others in my neighborhood, whereas at work, at home, and on Slashdot I tend to use a larger vocabulary, and more subtle language (i.e. "move, nigga!" is replaced by "excuse me", "them mutha f**kers" is replaced by "the [name of group of people]" etc...). On the other hand, I yet to catch myself using Ebonics (the proper name for low-level African American slang) at work or in the company of my suburban-dwelling friends.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

Technically, if you want to use a newspaper as a weapon, you want to roll it up and thrust with the edge, like a knife. You can cause internal injuries fairly easily this way, especially if you aim below the ribs and thrust up.

Yes but practically, I don't want to injure them or pose as a martial artist but just smack (THWAP!) 'em on the head (THWAP!), throw the newspaper in their face and leave cackling.

devilspgd got it right... *cackle*

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[rtb61]

You forgot it would also cost the RIAA money to dispose of the rubbish so it's a double win for them. The escape the cost of the setlement and the cost of dump fees and as a bonus the schools now have to pay for the cost of disposing of the unacceptable CDs (that'll teach them to try and take the RIAA to court).

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[catsidhe]

I took the liberty of quickly marking up your text. Bold text is your text verbatim, italic text is marked for deletion.

I judge people by their usage use of grammar. I have a lower opinion (Lower than what? Maybe you meant 'low') of those [people] who choose not to use the language in the way that it is supposed (='prescribed', or 'supposed by someone'?) to be used. Your assertion that stylistic usage should be accepted as correct is pure bullshit. If you choose to speak the language in an incorrect manner incorrectly, even if it is a matter of style, then you are still speaking the language in an incorrect manner incorrectly. If I encounter you speaking incorrectly, I will think that you are an idiot. (or: "If I were to encounter you speaking incorrectly, I would think that you are an idiot.")

Style has nothing to do with grammar. A language would not be defined as such, were that not true. (or: "..., if that were not true.") The term "grammar" means "a set of rules that gives structure to a language."

As it is, I believe the biggest issue is pronounciation, not grammar. If someone says "Gimme dat," it is a grammatically correct mispronounciation of "Give me that." (Which is a grammatically incorrect variant of "Give that to me", but we know what you meant.) Poor speakers are the source of such lovely phrases as "Axe me a question" (Which is a correct variant in old and early English, found in Chaucer) and "Whaddup wid dat?"

Of course, I enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing, but I do have an opinion on this particular issue.

HTH, HAND.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[bot24]

Lots of schools need artwork to cover their walls. CD's are great wall coverings. Ever seen that AOL comercial with Snoop Dog? With that many CD's, they could just replace the vandilized discs with fresh ones. The Lyrics are enough for study. The cases make good floor tiles.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[socode]

> I have a lower opinion of those who choose not to use
> the language in the way that it is supposed to be used.
What is "the language"? What is this way in which language is "supposed" to be used? Who are you to dictate that it be used in that way?

> Poor speakers are the source of such lovely phrases as
> "Axe me a question" and "Whaddup wid dat?"
"Poor speakers" gave rise to "ask" in the first place, since your example of incorrect pronounciation actually predates the one which you believe to be correct. Look up "metathesis".

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[justkarl]

I disagree with your implied opinion.

I like Public Enemy. I like John Coltrane. I REALLY like Nine Inch Nails. Does that make me a trend? Furthermore, does that make me a bad person to like different kinds of music?

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

> I disagree with your implied opinion.

Umm... what?

> I like Public Enemy.

So do I.

> I like John Coltrane.

So do I.

> I REALLY like Nine Inch Nails.

So do I.

> Does that make me a trend?

Well, if you + me + that kid = a trend, then I'm thinking yes it does.

> Furthermore, does that make me a bad person to like different kinds of music?

I didn't say he was bad, I said he was Japanese. Did I use a hostile font or something? Don't know where you got that I was looking down on the kid.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Slime-dogg]

Woohoo! I am proud of myself. What a completely successful troll, to have caught so many.

It was even modded "Insightful."

Then again, you have no idea if I have white or black skin. Your assumption that blacks only speak in a certain manner is certainly more indicative of racism than my title could ever be.

I agree that there is no correct language. I believe, however, that the English language has qualities that go beyond the words that are used. If you wish to use English words in your own grammar, then you would no longer be speaking English. If you don't use English words, but use your own grammar, then you are certainly not speaking English.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[techno-vampire]

You have it backward. Grammer doesn't mean what it does because that's how the dictionary defines it, the dictionary defines it that way because that's what it means. Dictionary writers don't create definitions for words, they record the way words are used, and what people think they mean. This is why definitions in dictionaries change: the usage of the word changes, so the definition has to be re-written to keep current.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when do RIAA companies want to have anything to do with death metal? I don't think Dying Fetus or Suffocation are going to get contracts with the majors any time soon. You just had to include something about "white music" because you think it keeps you from looking racist, right?

Also, what the other guy said about stage personas. Outside of a few Scandinavian black metalers, these guys aren't out killing each other.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

"That's the sort of lesson we want to be teaching our children."Look kids, you too can be a successful musician *and* be a crackhead!""

Yeah, why didn't they donate a whole lot of Bob Dylan records, since he only uses heroin? Or perhaps AC/DC, to show the kids how cool it is to drown in your own vomit? What about Nirvana, why don't we cannonize someone for comitting suicide (isn't Cobain due for a Darwin award)?

Frankly, about the only recording "artist" I can think of who never had a drug habit or other major personality disorder was Jim Neibours, and his music was so bland that today's pap seems positively adventurous by comparison.

Yep, the idea that musicians should be held up as role models is insane. We should be looking to sporting heroes, who never, EVER use drugs (honest!), or perhaps to politicians and the clergy for their high ethical standards.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[dgatwood]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and disagree on Avril. Her first full CD, "Let Go" was pretty decent. My guess is most of it was written before she was signed by Arista.... I just can't see any explanation for the disparity between it and her later works.

Her first CD combined a driving rock style with light, pop lyrics, and threw in some serious chords that you don't generally get in pop music---II, III, IX, XI, and I think even a XIII or two. It was edgy, angry, and intelligent---how many pop singers can even spell "opulent", much less use it?

By contrast, the music video I saw a few weeks ago sounds like mass-market pop drivel. It had no redeeming stylistic qualities, seeming to repeat itself into the ground, with little differentiation between even the chorus and the verse. It felt like the song wasn't at all part of her personality and was just something that she was told to sing.

Put another way, it is impossible to overestimate the ability of some record labels to take a talented musician and generate songs that I wouldn't use as a lawn fertilizer.

That having been said, pop music has changed a lot, IMHO. It has gotten progressively more mindless. I remember joking ten years ago that most country music was soft rock for people who didn't know how to sing or play an instrument---simplistic chords, no key changes, pretty much the same thing over and over with little variation, and a bridge? What's a bridge? To them, it was something you had to drive over to get to a gig.... These days, though, pop music has filled that niche, and country music is starting to actually mature as a genre, taking on more of the qualities of rock, jazz, and classical styles. Where rock music had all the killer guitar licks in the 80s, the best licks these days are in country.

And then there's the technical side. I'm always amazed at some of the songs that make it on the air these days. Some of them have instruments---and sometimes backing vocals---that are so buried that you don't even know they're there. (Strangely enough, many of the softer rock/pop singles later get released as a country re-release and the mixing ends up being flawless.... I don't want to know....)

I've heard top-40 rock bands damn near stop playing, lose the beat entirely, and play totally dissonant chords that sound like utter crap, only to finally get back together twenty measures later. I've heard pop singers who required so much auto-tuning that they sounded like frigging chipmunks. I've heard songs with only a melody and a bass line.... If that's what people want to listen to, they should buy a bloody bagpipe. Are we really regressing that much?

No, the pop music scene hasn't always been utter garbage. It used to just suck. Now, it blows, too. Here's hoping the young people of today figure that out sooner rather than later....

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself!

[Compenguin]

Ask: Etymology: Middle English, from Old English Ascian; akin to Old High German eiscOn to ask, Lithuanian eiskoti to seek, Sanskrit icchati he seeks
(From M-W.com)

In Ascian, eiscOn, and eiskoti the s sound comes before the K sound. No metathesis as far as I can tell.

RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[mfh]

From the Article: Raunchy music wasn't what anyone in education or the Attorney General's Office had in mind when they announced that a windfall of music was coming to public schools and libraries from last year's $143 million anti-trust settlement with the recording industry.

Yes, but it's exactly what the RIAA had in mind, so couldn't the Attourney General charge the RIAA with the intentional corruption of youth? Gosh if the world was perfect, the RIAA would be charged criminally for trying to push explicit lyrics on children.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[XMyth]

If the world was perfect the RIAA wouldn't exist at all.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Ateryx]

Gosh if the world was perfect...

If you didn't know, Creed broke up... anything else is just details.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Troed]

RIAA would be charged criminally for trying to push explicit lyrics on children

Are you by any chance a US citizen?

In the rest of the world we let the parents raise their children .. really .. what do you think happens to kids who listen to "explict lyrics"? I'm seriously curious.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[lukewarmfusion]

"Gosh if the world was perfect, the RIAA would be charged criminally for trying to push explicit lyrics on children."

1. Are they trying to push explicit lyrics on children? I guess I could see where you're coming from if you're thinking Eminem and the fan base that has embraced him, but the same can be said for South Park.

2. Are you arguing for censorship?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now, now, they obviously serve a purpose. Just like piles of shit... We need something to collect the flies.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[mfh]

> 2. Are you arguing for censorship?
No. I think that there should be age limits for certain types of media. If a company willingly gives explicit content to children, they are at fault, just as they would be at fault for providing smokes to minors or booze to minors.

My point is that the RIAA pushes the fervent agenda that children should be responsible, and not download or upload copyright protected material, but in the same course, they offer free explicit music to the school system because they are too cheap to pay a fine. My thoughts are that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and the RIAA should be charged for corruption of innocents, or attempted corruption of innocents. (IANAL)

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[basingwerk]

Get this - Americans changed the English word TITBIT to TIDBID because the original was too obscene!!!

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the gist of the parent was that the current administration is approaching social issues with a very fundamentalist-christian leaning; our attorney general has covered up the statue of Justice because you can see a boob, for example, or how the FCC just raised the fine for broadcast vulgarity by an order of magnitude to send a specific message to Howard Stern and his soundalikes in local markets. It's not so much about the poster being a nutjob who wants the gov't to raise children by legislation so much as it is a weary citizen attempting to make a giant corporate entity as prone to litigation as the little guy seems to be these days, to turn a corrupt government against it's corrupt corporate allies for a change. At least that's how I read it... but then I'm an AC so you can ignore me.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Alzheimers]

Actually, sounds more like Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor. I would imagine it would come with penalties similar to buying Cigarettes or Beer for a 16 year old, which can be considered "Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor".

I can't find Washington State's law, but using Colorado as an example, contributing to the delinquency of a minor is a class 4 felony with 2 to 6 years in jail and a fine of $2,000 to $500,000. (Colo. Rev. Stat. 12-47-901, 12-47-903, 18-1-106, 18-6-701)

How many CDs was that again?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya' know, buddy? It's posts like yours which keep me comming back to /. To bad there's so many log-in nazis here, cause that is what keeps driving me away...

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[lukewarmfusion]

I agree with your second paragraph, but there's something in your first that bothers me.... alcohol and tobacco companies aren't liable (and shouldn't be) for kids getting to their products. I place that responsbility on the parents, not on the companies. Advertising to kids (Joe Camel) is one thing, but blaming music companies (or video games, or movies, or South Park) for "corruption of innocents" while the parents stand by and let it happen is pretty far out there.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[cloudmaster]

WTF is a "tidbid"?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Troed]

Oh I read ACs .. :) I understand what you mean, but, I often see US citizens actually _wanting_ laws against profanity etc. If you scroll down you'll see posts arguing for it here on Slashdot as well.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Izago909]

The courts are run by idiots. Taking a pay pay off in the form of products being pushed by a paticular industry is just dumb. You know Microsoft is just going to donate 5 year old computers, and you know the RIAA is going to hand off the CDs they couldn't sell at their yard sale. Maybe the courts shoud *gasp* take a settlement in the form of cash money. With original thinking like this, I'll shall never be elected to public office.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[cloudmaster]

In the US children are raised by TV, though the internet is slowly replacing that parent. "Parenting" is suing whoever you can blame for corrupting your children. /Glad that I was raised in an area with poor TV reception ;)

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[gosand]

Are you by any chance a US citizen? In the rest of the world we let the parents raise their children .. really .. what do you think happens to kids who listen to "explict lyrics"? I'm seriously curious.

I can't speak for the parent poster, but I was wondering the same thing. I am pretty sure that the comment was tongue-in-cheek, considering all the hoo-ha that went on over Janet Jacksons b--b. (sorry, don't want to fucking offend anyone). So the government can force radio hosts off of radio stations for using "obscene" language and references while the "beloved" Oprah is not held to the same standards. Yet the RIAA, the champions of good taste, are able to donate very questionable material to youth as part of a class-action settlement against them. It is all a ridiculous farce.

Some of us in the USA are quite aware of the idiocy that is going on in our society. I am personally embarassed that as a "free" society, we are so very far from it.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[ShortSpecialBus]

That's mostly because those of us with juvenile senses of humor repeatedly say "It's a tit bit nipply out" enough to drive the country batty.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

They turn into Europeans.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Apreche]

+10. That is the #1 problem in this country. Parents are not bringing up their children. They let public school and television do all the work. Instead of doing it themselves they just complain when pop culture and schools do a poor job.

Home schooling is no better either. What you get there are socially inept children who are coddled and shielded from the real world.

With college retention rates in the terrible state they are, it is obvious. Kids in the US are not being raised in a fashion which allows them to get by in the real world.

I think the #1 factor in this is that many families have both parents working, so nobody is home to raise the children. I'm no anti-woman type. It doesn't matter if the mom or the dad stays home, but it has to be one of the two. The other problem is of course, divorce. Divorce is happening because people who were raised poorly are getting married.

So, what prevents one parent from staying home? Money, duh. They need more money. The income of one person cannot support the family of 4 unless you have a really good job. The problem though, is not inflation or unemployment or anything, although those factors contribute. The problem is consumerism. People buy things for the sake of buying things. They buy things they don't need. *cough* SUVs *cough*. In general people are trying to live at a higher standard of living than they can afford.

Why don't they stop doing that and be more frugal/intelligent and raise their children properly? Corporations. Advertising. Consumerism. Big corporations are the root of all the trouble. This CD episode is simply a direct example of the larger problem. You can see it plain as day. Corporations trying to turn children into consumers. Consumers who will live above their means. Consumers who will allow their children to be raised the same way.

Google is the shining example of real Adam Smith capitalism at work. These megacorps need to change or leave in order to save our society.

Do you agree, or do you think I'm taking it too far? I actually think I may have... oh well. I'll submit anyway, no point in putting all that typing to waste.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Jim_Maryland]

I'm a US citizen (with two kids) and often I find restrictions to be annoying. What I don't have a problem with and encourage is proper labeling of media.. Adequate labeling is important to me as a consumer. If I want to shelter my kids from hearing songs about subject, I'd like to have access to that information before purchase/use of the media.

1. Example: If my kid wants a CD for their birthday and it's an artist I am not familiar with, I'd be pretty upset to find lyrics about rape, killing, drugs, etc....

A simple label indicating explicit lyrics (and ideally they type of lyrics) helps me as a consumer in making an informed decision. Consider a rating system to be similar to that of Nutrition Facts on food products, you just want to know what your getting.

what do you think happens to kids who listen to "explict lyrics"?

This all depends on the kid listening to the music. For most children, they can handle it very well. For other children, the lyrics can have negative impacts on them. In the latter case, the music is probably not the only issue in the kids life, but you have to start somewhere. Unfortunately in a society where everyone is looking to blame someone else for a problem, product vendors are taking precautions against legal action.

1. As for an example, consider a kid who starts calling his Mom a "bitch" because he hears it on an album. I don't know about you, but if one of my kids started calling their Mother, my Wife, that, I'd be a little upset.

Basically consider what influences children and think about what you want them to take from the influence. Most people would probably prefer their kids to hang around the typical role model rather than a drug dealer (unless your trying to get them into a family business, j/k). The affects of music are one part of what influences children.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[RosebudLTD]

Gosh if the world was perfect, the RIAA would be charged criminally for trying to push explicit lyrics on children.

No, in a perfect world, the RIAA would say "Oh, gee... we were found to be at fault. We will honor the judgement in the spirit in which it was handed down."

Nah, that'd be too adult-like. What they've said here is the equivalent of "THBBBBBBB!" with a few obscene gestures thrown in for good measure.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[mfh]

> alcohol and tobacco companies aren't liable (and shouldn't be) for kids getting to their products.
The schools are a stop-gap, but the intent to offer these explicit lyrics freely to children, changes the role of the RIAA from a distributor, to a provider, much like a parent or anyone who would pay to obtain explicit material to children. Like a pervert might give nude books to children, or a criminal would offer booze, drugs or smokes to children. The RIAA broke the law, and they should be punished.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck are you talking about? I've never heard the word "titbit" or "tidbid".

Do you mean 'tidbit'? As in a "tiny piece"?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[dasmegabyte]

Actually, if the world was perfect, the RIAA would exist, and its tireless efforts as a non-profit to guarantee that artists and record producers each get a fair cut of market value CD sales would be a credit to the music loving public.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Creed broke up?!?!? Nooooooooooo!!!!

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

As for an example, consider a kid who starts calling his Mom a "bitch" because he hears it on an album. I don't know about you, but if one of my kids started calling their Mother, my Wife, that, I'd be a little upset.

And here's where your job as a parent comes in. You talk to your kid and tell him/her that it's not appropriate to say something like that.

Stop being a bitch and do some parenting. Stop trying to pass it off as if it's someone else's responsibility.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL - You wrote tit - LMAO... Tit. LMAO. Hey, wait a minute. Nobody died, not wars were started, no one was raped, etc, etc. But you wrote tit. Shouldn't that have caused a catostrophy on some level?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[dthree]

Microsoft donate hardware, are you nuts? All they would have to do is hand each school district a few cds and a site license for windows and office and call it $2,000,000 in "donations". You're right, cash is it.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um. Considering the RIAA is american and this settlement was in America (Washington is a state)...

And yes, you can get in trouble for exposing children to explicit lyrics or visuals. You have to be an adult to buy music with an "explicit lyrics" label on them (thanks to Al Gore's wife who also has clinical mental problems).

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[wcb4]

actually,it is in MS's interest not to do this. They *WANT* to donate fast computers and new software. If the schools get the kids using it, they will want it at home. If you give talented youths MS environemtns to use, they will find ways to develop new things in those environments, thus a whole group of kids who come up using and hacking the MS environment. They will be the ones developing in corporate environments in a few years.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Dun Malg]

Get this - Americans changed the English word TITBIT to TIDBID because the original was too obscene!!!

Nonsense. Both were considered proper spelling variations early on, and eventually "tidbit" became the accepted one.

c1640 J. Smyth Lives Berkeleys (1885) III. 25 A tyd bit, i.e. a speciall morsell reserved to eat at last.

1701 Collier M. Aurel. (1726) 13 To be always loading the table, and eating of tid-bits.

As you can see from the above OED excerpts, the "tidbit" variation predates not only the american revolution, but much of the continents colonization as well.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[orthogonal]

Yes, but it's exactly what the RIAA had in mind, so couldn't the Attourney [sic] General charge the RIAA with the intentional corruption of youth?

Hey, it's not like they distributed those albums of William Shatner singing "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds", or Leonard Nimoy signing about that hobbit "Bilbo Baggins" (link is the video).

Now those are Weapons of Mass (Aesthetic) Destruction.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[cens0r]

He didn't say that the tobacco and alcohol companies should be liable if kids get their products. He said they should be liable if they give it to them. If Brown and Williamson sends $100 million dollars worth of cigarettes to an elementry school, I'd blame them and not the parents.

Of course, I would never have made the comparison between explicit lyrics and toboacco, but that's just me. I listened to 2 live crew, easy-e, and nwa as a youth; and I seemed to turn out ok.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[dasmegabyte]

In an unfree society, we would not be able to debate this. In an unfree society, you would be unable to go here and see naked breasts. In an unfree society, I would not be able to post this.

Don't get so stressed out at the economic censure of public speech. Get stressed out when they start trying to censor PRIVATE speech.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[jedidiah]

It all depends on the particular work. Some albums thus labeled are the audio equivalent of "Debbie Does Dallas". That label is pretty meaningless by itself.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[devilspgd]

They'll learn to say bad words. Sometimes they'll put them in sentances (although in lowerclass areas only the explicit content is actually learned)

From there, their lingustic skills will ultimately lead them to unrewarding and unproductive careers which create a drag on society as a whole.

Examples such as: homeless beggers/bag people, squeegee people, reality TV cast+crew, the commander in chief, and rap "artists" are the natural result, seperated only by their adult choice to maintain their childhood learned sentance structures vs to go on in life choking on pretzles and mispronouncing nuclear.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, the question is how is cursing contributing to the dilinquency of a minor? I'm an adult and I swear and I'm not in prison. In fact, I have a very well paying career and a good life.

If a child swears like a sailor, what crime is that child committing? If a parent swears in front of the child, what crime is that? If I call a kid a "stupid little fucking shit", what crime did I commit?

Kinda bullshit if you ask me. Buying a kid smokes or drugs or beer is contributing to delinquincy. Swear words are not. Swear words are nothing more than slang. Part of the english language and perfectly fucking legal.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[devilspgd]

Here's a hint: They'll be exposed to whatever you try to shelter them from eventually, be it at school, or when they get out into the world.

Rather then forcing them to deal with concepts they aren't prepared to handle, sit down with your offspring (or whatever else you call whatever you spawned) and discuss the issue (whatever the issue at hand may be), let them learn and understand the good and the bad in the world, and maybe even become a force for good.

When you see rascism or prejudice on TV, when the show is over, talk to your kids. Teach them that what they saw was wrong, and why.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[jenilyn]

>... while the "beloved" Oprah is not held to the same standards.

Hey. That's The Beloved Oprah to you, son. You have to be careful, she's everywhere.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[jedidiah]

Unfortunately, frugality will land you in a neighborhood that will surround your children with all the wrong influences. The SUV is a trivial element in all of this. What really costs money is surrounding yourself with a like economic demographic. American society is anti-intellectual enough without "slumming" in order to intensify this.

Everyone is living life to their credit limit. If you don't you'll be surrounded by hoodlum neighbors and pisspoor schools.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

first off they start off talking that way and have a filthy mouth which get's them nowhere in a hurry.

I dont see no CEO's be talking shit and looking to cap some asses yo!

if you swear then you are considered illiterate idiot by the people that matter in the world...

oh the people that matter? they are the ones with the money and power.... timmy two toes on the corner who thinks he's all-dat is a piece of crap that isnt worth cappin'.

impress your boss at burger world, he is more important than your homies.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Java Pimp]

No, the only thing that came out of Tipper Gore's crusade 15 years ago was a VOLUNTARY labeling system by the RIAA. And what a blow that was... put an "explicit lyrics" label on a CD and watch those sales rise!

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

>what do you think happens to kids who listen to "explict lyrics"?

They end up moving to other parts of the world.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Alzheimers]

In this case, we're not commenting on the developmental implications of swear words in rap music, but the fact that the RIAA is *giving* children material that they otherwise would be legally protected (ha!) from.

You, I, and Penn & Teller can debate about the social consequences of age-restricted material until we're blue in the face. The bottom line is, right now it's illegal to provide such material to a minor. We should exploit the opportunity to either highlight the fallacy of such a law or to punish an organization for trying to skirt around it's other legal obligations.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

so he doesn't learn bitch from the CD, he learns it from a kid at school who downloaded it from Napster (sans-label). Who do you blame now, or do you start to actually get to know your kid so that he doesn't think moms a bitch anymore?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[bonkedproducer]

"...a piece of crap that isnt worth cappin'."

Sir or Ma'am, I am under the impression that you were the victim of a minor typographical error, or a grammatical one.

I assume that you actually meant to say:

"...a piece of crap that ain't worth cappin' bitch!"

Hopefully this corrects any confusion that may have arisen out of the parent post.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[oconnorcjo]

It is a parents job to raise thier kids but I would be really pissed off if the school system I was sending my kids to were playing puff daddy lyrics during lunch time. I also scorn the use of words like bitch/fuck/whore/cunt/racial slurs and various vulgar language used in some modern rap music. I see no conflict between a school system sueing a corporation for "trying to" corrupt children and parents being responsible for how thier children are rasised- that is why a school system would be sued by parents (if a school actually played the music the RIAA sent). It is within parents rights to allow thier kids to say "I am going to pop a cap in your head" but I expect our learning institutions to hold to a higher standard for the many parents that DON'T allow such nonsense.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[maxpublic]

Don't get so stressed out at the economic censure of public speech. Get stressed out when they start trying to censor PRIVATE speech.

Exactly how do you think it starts? The road to censoring private speech begins with the censoring of public speech. The best way to corrupt a free society is to start small and work your way up, a la the old 'boiling the frog' analogy.

Max

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[magefile]

I agree with you; my country is far too uptight. But it's like busting Al Capone for tax evasion 'cuz they couldn't get him for bootlegging, rum running, gambling, organized crime, etc.

With Bush and Asscroft in power, it just might work!

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[dr_dank]

If you don't you'll be surrounded by hoodlum neighbors and pisspoor schools.

Thats a way of life in the suburbs of the metro areas. People will pay ridiculous sums of money for the privilege of living apart from the undesirables (blacks, hispanics, white trash, etc).

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[magefile]

You misspelled biatch.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[identity0]

I take it then, that you have not heard about Rage Against The Machine breaking up?

To be honest, I might actually miss their election-year antics this year. I wonder if they'd still endorse Nader. "More for Gore or the son of a drug lord", indeed.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[BandwidthHog]

I generally agree with you, but I can't fault the corps *entirely* for the whole conspicuous consumerism thing, as they're just doing what they're supposed to, i.e. trying to sell as many widgets as possible. It's kinda like the informercial phenomenon... it's not that the producers of those things are evil magicians who can make otherwise intelligent people call in a credit card number, it's that our society turns out so many otherwise functional people who *do* call in credit card numbers.

At heart I suppose I'm (to some extent) of the Adam Smith persuasion, and that this rampant consumerism is a problem that needs to sort itself out "naturally" but I'm really starting to wonder if "the system" is capable of correcting this one, as where's the profit margin in instilling stronger critical thinking skills in our youth?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Ricdude]

Don't forget their tireless efforts to normalize record player output levels and equalization curves. Thanks to these efforts, we don't have to change the settings on our 27 band stereo equalizers for every record we listen to.

The CD audio mastering profession, on the other hand, seems to be perfectly willing to sacrifice dynamic range for loudness, clipping be damned...

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[ryanwright]

Home schooling is no better either. What you get there are socially inept children who are coddled and shielded from the real world.

-1, Doesn't Know Jack About Home Schooling.

Before you run your mouth again, I'd suggest you find a local homeschooling group. Go to one of their meetings and watch the children interact with one another. For kicks, bring along some children of your own - borrow someone else's kids if you don't have any of your own. The point is to introduce strangers into this group of "socially inept children."

Then watch with amazement as the homeschooled children immediately and with no reservations make friends with these strange kids. Socially inept children don't walk up to other kids and say, "Hi, I'm Katie. What's your name? Do you want to go play on the slide with me?"

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[maxpublic]

Home schooling is no better either. What you get there are socially inept children who are coddled and shielded from the real world.

And I'm sure you have cites to credible, empirical evidence for this statement, published in an accredited, peer-reviewed journal? No?

Imagine my surprise.

Max

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Jim_Maryland]

First off, where did you pick up that I was blaming someone? I'm just trying to be an educated consumer in what I buy. Do you look at the specifications of a computer before you buy it? Basically the same thing when buying music CD's. I want to know what is on it before I let my kids blindly listen to it. If you want to leave it to chance, that's your method. For me, I feel it is my responsibility to know what my kids are listening to.

Stop being a bitch and do some parenting. Stop trying to pass it off as if it's someone else's responsibility.

So are you saying that by reviewing what my children listen to, I am blaming someone else? You are way off on your reply. If you read my entire post you would understand that I want to know the contents so I can "parent".

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[dasmegabyte]

Or it could stop at the boundary of public speech. Do I have the right to stand on the street corner shouting obscenities at 3 am? No, this is a disturbance. Do I have the right to whisper them under my breath? Of course I do! It isn't the speech that's being censored, it's the method of delivery.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[CrayzyJ]

Maybe both parents work to put food on the table and pay the mortgage? You ever think of that? We were not all born with silver spoons.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Jim_Maryland]

I fully realize that children will be exposed to many situations a parent probably would prefer they didn't experience. Your point is valid that they will be exposed at some age, but a parent can use rating systems to help in presenting the information. If my 7 year old daughter wants the latest pop diva CD because some of her friends (presumably they have older siblings) talk about it, I'd like to know if it talks explicitly about sexual themes that she may not be ready to handle.

All I'm saying is that labelling the media with a rating system is a useful tool for parents. Sheltering too much can be a bad method, but opening the "flood gates" of information seems worse to me (picture letting a young child watch the movie Hannibal and try explaining canibalism for the next couple months while they can't fall asleep due to fear about being eaten). You have to balance the information and a rating system is a good tool for that.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[maxpublic]

In a free society you censor neither. The only time you intervene is when the *speech infringes on the rights of others*. And in this case you aren't engaged in censorship, but protecting the rights of those being infringed on.

In your example, it isn't the speech that's the problem, but the fact that some drunken asshole is standing on a street corner at 3 a.m. shouting obscenities when other people are trying to sleep, or simply want some peace and quiet on their own property. The same law would apply if this asshole were shouting chapters of the bible, singing a Johhny Cash song, or simply screaming. The content of the speech itself is irrelevant.

Max

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[DrEldarion]

Not really. There's nothing wrong with the RIAA in theory. It's just that in practice, things didn't go so well. If the RIAA cared more about the artists and consumers, it could be an excellent organization.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[lightspawn]

RIAA would be charged criminally for trying to push explicit lyrics on children

Are you by any chance a US citizen?

In the rest of the world we let the parents raise their children .. really .. what do you think happens to kids who listen to "explict lyrics"? I'm seriously curious.

I don't know how it works in the rest of the world, but here in the U.S. 80,000 minors were temporarily or permanently blinded after accidentally viewing nippular tissue in a televised wardrobe malfunction.

I have no direct evidence to support this, but it seems logical to me that if any children tried to listen to these CDs, their ears would fall off.

And if that's not criminal negligence on the RIAA's part, I don't know what is.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Jim_Maryland]

OK, so calling Mom a "bitch" is only one example and yes they'll hear about it from a variety of sources. I am not blaming the vendors for the content, rather I use the labelling as a tool in understanding what my kids listen to.

Who do you blame now, or do you start to actually get to know your kid so that he doesn't think moms a bitch anymore?

Again, your assuming that I'm blaming the CD vendors and I'm not. Please see my responses to above posters who made the same wrong assumption.

BTW, I feel I have a great relationship with my kids, they do know many of the "words" (exposure from school/friends), and they understand what they mean (for the most part) and that I do not want them using them. The use of a rating system is basically a tool for parents to do their job.


Out of curiousity, do you have kids? If so, would you let them listen to all music without limitation? How about the same for movies? I'm thinking that you wouldn't let your kids watch everything that has been produced. If you do allow free access, are you really a responsible parent?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[N3koFever]

"In an unfree society, we would not be able to debate this. In an unfree society, you would be unable to go here [daily-tits.com] and see naked breasts. In an unfree society, I would not be able to post this."

I think the point he was making is how you have to go to an almost unpoliceable media like the Internet to see naked breasts. Other countries, which a lot of Americans would have you believe are less free than the US, have tits in the daily newspapers, on TV, on statues in public places (Freudian slip: I typed "pubic places" then), and you can hear naughty words on the TV and radio without the state fining them for excercising their right to free speech.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[M. Silver]

So, what prevents one parent from staying home? Money, duh. They need more money. The income of one person cannot support the family of 4 unless you have a really good job.

This is often a myth... when you sit down and do the math, you find out that the second income is eaten up (and then some) by daycare, convenience foods and restaurants, and all the less obvious expenses that pile up when you're both working. Some of that's *so* "less obvious that even sitting down and doing the math doesn't tell you the real story.

We cut our household income in half when I quit to have a baby. And our standard of living hasn't changed (to our great surprise). Difference is, I have to cook and shop and all that instead of managing an AS/400 shop. Yeah, in a lot of ways *that's* a major sacrifice - at least I can still code at home on my *own* projects, so I don't feel at all like I'm completely falling behind on my career. Not everybody can do that. On the other hand, not every second income is 50% of the income, either, so a lot of wives (and the occasional husband) can stay home and actually *improve* the household bottom line.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Jens_UK]

Here is a link to a story on research that indicates homeschool children are NOT socially inept.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[ReTay]

"What I don't have a problem with and encourage is proper labeling of media.. Adequate labeling is important to me as a consumer."

I don't know, for me I listen to a CD, movie, book, video game or whatever BEFORE I give it to my child. If I don't like it but have no special objection to it he gets it. I have a rational reasonable objection to it he does not get it.
To me that is part of being part of a kids life. It is a counter balance for being able to act like a child in public with my son. But that is just parenting to me.....

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[i-Chaos]

I'm currently 24, and have a brother of age 2.5. I usually don't live with him, so it's only during the summer that I'm able to "parent" him to the best of my abilities.

Long story short: My brother's father allows him to watch TV with all sorts of different content - This I did not know until I started living with my brother again. So, let's just say, imagine my surprise when the kid gets pissed and lets loose a string of obscenities that he does not even understand!!!

Once a kid is ten years old, he starts to understand different things, and what to do and not to do. However, before that age, children can only imitate what they hear (which sucks if they grow up in a home with parents yelling at each other). Now, I'm not being pompous (sp?) or anything, but I would not want any child to start hearing obscenities on mass-media at any time of day, as it desensitizes the child. Children WILL imitate what they see, and if they see it on TV often enough, they will believe that it is OK to say and do, despite your best efforts to parent them. Think about why upper-class kids have such a huge vocabulary, and lower-class kids can't find enough creative ways to swear (well, actually, they just copy whatever hiphop celeb is fashionable).

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[nelsonal]

The impressive thing about this country is that there is tremendous diversity in all sorts of things including cost of living. If a family really needs two incomes to put food on the table and pay the mortgate, I would wholeheartedly suggest you sell your home and move to a lower cost of living area. Before you do that, get a copy of quicken (or GNUCash or MS Money or even a spreadsheet) and track where your expenses go, most of us (myself included) spend a surprising amount each month on transactions that are all individually very small. I created a simple spreadsheet to track my own spending and with a few minor cuts (packing a lunch a few days a week, cutting back on starbucks, and not buying as much crap I didn't need) cut my expenses by several hundred dollars a month. I'm not trying to attack anyone, but it's very easy to start spending lots of cash on all sorts of crazy crap that doesn't look like nearly as good a deal by the time you are entering it in your budget tracker.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Provos]

Well, There's nothing wrong with communism in theory either - but in practice it seems to always end up as a form of fascism instead.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Tackhead]

> +10. That is the #1 problem in this country. Parents are not bringing up their children. They let public school and television do all the work. Instead of doing it themselves they just complain when pop culture and schools do a poor job.

And while we're at it, on the subject of hip-hop...

Listening to hip-hop today (versus the hip-hop of the late 80s), I see a basic set of self-reinforcing memes. In no particular order: Education is acting "white" and is therefore a form of race treason. Race treason is an unpardonable sin; the purity of the race must be preserved. In the absence of education, crime is the only viable career choice. Respect is achieved through violence and intimidation. The purpose of life is to acquire money through force, fraud, or intimidation, and to spend the money purchasing whores. When whores are fucked, it's OK to shoot them. Kill all white people, because they're devils.

When I was a kid, we had a word for people who wanted to keep blacks and whites segregated, and to prevent blacks from succeeding in public school in order to keep them out of college, and to condemn them to lives of poverty, and on a dead-end track to murder or prison.

That word was "Klansman".

Today, that word is "Hip-Hop Recording Artist".

For double irony points, guess the race of the CEOs of the entertainment conglomerates that make the most money out of selling this memeset to blacks.

Big Pun in the public schools? If it weren't for the fact that Klan's too stupid to come up with anything this subtle, I'd call shenanigans.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[op00to]

I heard about a guy who has a monkey. It was a very nice monkey. It wore a little hat. From this, I will now deduce that every man has a monkey, and that all monkeys are nice and wear little hats.

Seriously, anecdotes mean absolutely nothing. The GP said kids who don't go to school have sucky social skills. You said "NUH UH!"

Now, can we actually hear proof either way?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[k98sven]

I think the #1 factor in this is that many families have both parents working, so nobody is home to raise the children. [..] Divorce is happening because people who were raised poorly are getting married.

You may think that.. but it doesn't check out with reality.
Not, at least if you take crime and drug use as a measure of how well kids are being brought up.

Sweden has one of the highest divorce rates in the world, and far more working parents (about 80%).
It also has far lower rates of violent crime and drug use.

The same goes for much of Europe. And the kids there listen to the same music and watch the same violent films as in the US. These simple answers to tough questions don't cut it.

That being said, the parents do have a responsibility, but so do public schools. Society can't expect every parent to be a good one, our schools must be able to act as a 'safety net' for those kids who need them.
And good daycare for working parents as well.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[sulaco252]

You may be surprised to learn that a large percentage of Hip-Hop sales are to middle class white kids.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention home schooled children are often involved in church as well, typical evangelical churches which usually have large sunday school programs on the order of 100+ children (depending of course on the size of the church itself).

But often these aren't just sunday morning for an hour, but depending on thier age there is children's church (for 4th grade and younger at mine). So thats two hours on sunday. Then Wednesday for 5th grade and under is another Bible program, with 6th grade and up involved in the teen/pre-teen group (which may be split at times so the older teens can discuss more mature subjects.)

So there get a whole lot of socialization there. Plus the aformentioned homeschooler groups. As far as sports, yup there are homeschool sports teams too.

As the person I'm replying to said, go see how inept these children really are. You'd definately be shocked to see they are probably far more socially capable than most public school children are.

Homeschoolers also tend to become more acedemically successful in college, which is an obvious boost in self esteem, as was success during childhood. They grow up, get jobs, live thier lives peacefully with people, are outgoing and friendly, basically become your typical "nice guy" everyone gets alone with for real that nobody hates.

Plus home school parents typically spend less time teaching each day, and go year round with short breaks here and there around holidays (1-2 weeks). This gives the kids time to learn and do thier work then have the rest of the day to have fun or work when they are teenagers. Imagine the benefits of a teenager being able to go socialize at work during the afternoon and have the evening to spend with thier friends, all the while beign able to be studious? Rather than public school kids who spend thier whole day in school, part of thier evening doing homework, then the last 5 hours of thier day at work to come home tired and have to drag thier butts from bed again in the morning.

And believe me public school isn't the social playground esp past elementary school. Middle school you have 5 minutes between class-2 of which you might use to socialize, then 40 minutes for lunch. So that comes out to about an hour of time to socialize during the day, the rest you spend in class trying to learn from a cookie cutter teacher who doesn't fit the way you learn all the while putting up with Mr. Jock over there making odd grunting noises.

Having gone through public school myself, and knowing homeschooled people I will blatently admit they are far more socially capable than me, as well as successful in life. It probably has a lot to do with this last point...

In school I was short, still am, 5'6" at 22 and not going up. I was little, 93 lbs freshman year! I was a bit "odd" (read that geeky) (by sixth grade I'd been a computer junky for 4 years!)

So can you guess what happen? yup I got teased and harassed and picked on and beat up. Somehow I managed to get labeled queer because, oh my gosh two of the guys i was friends with in grade school turned into lovers, and oh dear i didn't totally hate them like a few of the jocks/popular kids did so I got trashed and labeled one of them.

That led to a LOT of sexual teasing, getting pinned in the corner of the home-ec room with a guy twice my size humping my stomach going "Oh Cody I love, you're so sexy". I screamed "get off of me you faggot!" at which point we both got hauled down the the vice principals office for discipline. He got two days detention, because he was a "labeled" kid (read that sorta kinda special ed, totally normal ability, just stupid and immature and didn't give a fuck). I on the other hand was suspended for a week for calling him a "faggot".

So that would probably have something to do with why I have a hard time socializing with more than one new person at a time. I am fine with a few people i know, but if you so much as throw two new people at me I just clam up and basically become a mute.

Oh yeah

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Jim_Maryland]

for me I listen to a CD, movie, book, video game or whatever BEFORE I give it to my child.

I tend to do that too with media that I am unsure about. The ratings guide is not always accurate for all the media out there, but it is generally pretty good. My kids are 7 and 10 so a PG rating usually has appropriate content. Sometimes my kids get up to an R rated movie. Usually my wife and I will allow sci-fi like violence as long as it is easily discernable from realistic acts. Now I'm not saying that the content is appropriate for every kid (in some cases, my son, the 10 year old, will see some content I hold back from my daughter for now), but if they have a firm grip on reality and can easily identify what looks "cool" on the screen but should never be tried, then they likely can handle the content. My main point though is that a rating label is a good tool for parents to help judge if the content is suitable for the viewer.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[asdfghjklqwertyuiop]

Get stressed out when they start trying to censor PRIVATE speech.

They already have, courtesy John Ashcroft.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[LupusUF]

In the rest of the world we let the parents raise their children .. really .. what do you think happens to kids who listen to "explict lyrics"? I'm seriously curious.

That's all well and good, but this is not a case of parents buying explicit CD's for their children...it is the RIAA giving them to the schools and libraries. There is a difference in letting parents raise their children to listen to explicit lyrics and letting the RIAA and/or public schools to choose.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Socially inept children don't walk up to other kids and say, "Hi, I'm Katie. What's your name? Do you want to go play on the slide with me?"

That's precisely my definition of a socially inept highschool kid. I bet Katie is going to end up pregnant in a few months when she leaves home for college. It's a shame she was never taught about boys. *sigh* Another one left behind...

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[JoshWurzel]

what do you think happens to kids who listen to "explict lyrics"?

I wouldn't fucking know. My fucking parents won't let me listen to any fucking music that has the word "fuck" in it.

Excuse me, while I go smoke crack and smack some fuckin' hoes.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Deflagro]

I wish I had MOD points because that was an excellent comeback.
I'm from Canada and been living here 4 years now, in Texas no less..it's amazing how things have changed.
In any other country you can turn on the TV at 4pm and see naked ppl swearing at each other... thing is, if you don't like it..change the channel.

Funny but last I heard, Canada wasn't running rampant with violence and anarchy.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[thamaht]

It will always depend on the person doing the home schooling. (..the 'teacher', moreso than the student.)

My ex girlfriend went to public school for the first years of her education, then was sent off to boarding school [classic example of the parents who can't raise their own child], and returned to find out that because the boarding school was in another county, she had to redo those 3 years. Her parent (by this time, the father was gone) thought that she would be a great canidate for home schooling. Then, her mother did most of the work without even showing it to the daughter. By the time she got to public school for her senior year, she could barely pass the classes, because she hadn't learned the foundations yet.

The kids across the street from me were also home schooled, and it worked out pretty well. They never had many friends, but they were most likely loners before the home schooling started.

In general though, I'll trust teachers who had to go through years of schooling and have to deal with accreditation before I'll trust the parents that we were just talking about doing a shitty job of raising their children.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[greenegg77]

Well, since the lawyers probably ended up taking half the dosh anyway, I hope they like their 3,547 copies of "Milli Vanilli Singing in the Shower"...

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[ryanwright]

Google is your friend.

http://www.familyeducation.com/article/0,1120,58-1 7910,00.html
http://learninfreedom.org/socialization.html
http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/4336/social .html
http://www.faqfarm.com/Parenting/Homeschooling/525

I know of no studies that show homeschooled kids are "socially inept" or otherwise have any social problems whatsoever. On the contrary, an awful lot of information exists that says otherwise.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[ryanwright]

More:

Study Finds Home Schooled Children Better at Social Skills
Children Educated at Home Don't Become Social Misfits
Developmental Phases of Social Development
A Game of Socialization
Homeschooling and the Myth of Socialization
Marvin Minsky Comment on Schooling
THE MYTH OF SOCIALIZATION AND THE VALUE OF PLAY
Questioning Socialization
Sociability of Students in a Home-based Charter School
Social Development or Socialization?
Social Skills and Homeschooling: Myths and Facts
SOCIALIZATION ISSUES
That Dreaded "S" Word

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[rjamestaylor]

If the world were perfect, none of those CDs would exist. That they weren't selling leads me to revise upward my opinion of our society.

Marha's Scary Sounds?? Yiiieeee!

(Personally, the Disney-produced scary sounds LP my dad played every Halloween in the 70's as I grew up was the best.)

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[d34thm0nk3y]

In an unfree society, we would not be able to debate this. In an unfree society, you would be unable to go here and see naked breasts. In an unfree society, I would not be able to post this.

I beg to differ, even China is having a hard time keeping people off the internet and they are not exactly a bastion of freedom.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[ryanwright]

You're talking about quality of education issues. The grandparent, and I, were talking about social skills.

There are some parents that simply shouldn't homeschool. They use homeschooling as an excuse to just keep the kids home, or otherwise don't do a very good job of it. These kids can end up not having the skills they need to function in the real world.

A bad thing? Sure. Isolated to homeschoolers? Far from it. Huge numbers of children graduate from the public school system lacking the same skills. Why? They had bad parents! If you look at successful adults vs unsuccessful adults, homeschooled or not, you'll usually find that parenting, or a lack thereof, contributed to that child's development more than anything else.

Now I will link you to the results of a study that show 74 percent of homeschooled adults aged 18 to 24 have taken college-level courses, compraed to 46 percent of the general U.S. population. Link. In other words, a large majority of homeschoolers are going on to college, compared to less than half of everyone else. This tells me these parents are doing a better job than the teachers you place your trust in.

To further solidify my "value of education" argument, I'll link you to this CBS News article that says, and I quote:

"Homeschoolers have been in the news in recent years, taking top honors at events such as the National Spelling Bee and National Geographic Bee."

Doesn't look like their education is lacking at all.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Don'tTreadOnMe]

Yeah, I've always agreed with this line of reasoning. I mean, there's all of those things that everyone _has_ to have: cable/satellite, cell phones, pagers, new cars...

I don't have any of those things, I drive a decent car, but it's fourteen years old, and that puts a lot of cash in my pocket.

Which I of course spend on something equally useless, but hey, the money is there, if people can do without the big screen TV and 152 channels of whatnot.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[DonGar]

I know it's not the norm, but whenever I hear the word I think of the first time I heard of it.

I was a grad student living/working in the CS department and it's labs. One of the incoming freshmen was home schooled. His mother explained this to me as she was bringing him to class (and sitting in with him until they kicked her out). She also brought him to the lab to do his homework. And everywhere else that he went.

That poor kid. I got him to speak a few sentences directly to me a couple of times, but it wasn't easy. First I'd have to find a way to chase of his mother so he could even think about thinking or speaking for himself. Then I'd have to wait for him to stutter through whatever he was trying to say.

I know that home schooling CAN work well, and that that wasn't a typical case, but still...

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I guess the response to that (the selling of music with explicit adults being limited to adults so that parents can have some control over how they bring their children up without undermining the freedom of consenting adults) is "thanks Al Gore's wife! That was a good thing to do."

And, erm, I guess adding "I hope you get better soon." Why, out of interest, did you mention the latter issue? A sympathy thing?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[nlindstrom]

-1, Doesn't Know Jack About Home Schooling

Before you run your mouth again, I'd suggest you not be so quick to jump on people and accuse them of being ignorant. I was homeschooled, from first grade through high school. I've been to plenty of your local homeschooling groups, and I can state that virtually all of them are damaged goods.

Screw social skills; these kids aren't taught anything of the real world, less their wee lil' minds be corrupted by the evil sinners that don't believe in jesus! Bah. The result is that the children grow up lacking the skills to survive in the real world.

So sit down and STFU. You home schooling types make me sick. I'm certainly not going to subject my children to what I had to go through. Unlike you, I want my children to have a better life than I do: and this means raising them as normal people who are equipped to function in the real world.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[EMiniShark]

-1, Troll: "The other problem is of course, divorce. Divorce is happening because people who were raised poorly are getting married. " I wouldn't mind such an inflammatory comment if you had some semblance of data to back this up. Moderators, if you think this comment is insightful, you know about as much about divorce and the causes of poor marriages as this poster, which is nothing.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[drkich]

If you didn't know, Creed broke up... anything else is just details.

This is probably showing my age, but what is creed?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[baalz]

Bullshit.

Most people suck at being parents. Its hard to do well, and most people lack the aptitude, the drive to put in the effort, or both. That's been the case since this race was started, and it's nothing newly caused by TV. Most people make poor teachers(and students) as well for the same reason. This is nothing new, its just become fashionable to bitch about it lately. The reason there are more divorces today is because of a shift in cultural value. Divorces of today were the bad marriages of yesterday. People haven't gotten any worse at relationships, they just value the institution of marriage less.

The reason both parents usually work is because the buying power of the average paycheck has plummeted. Sure, you can live off of just one salary in theory, if you just don't buy STUFF. You don't really need broadband, heck, even dialup is not strictly necessary..use the library! Braces for your daughter are realy just cosmetic surgery, and traveling a bit to show your kids what the world has to offer is a needless waste. Hmmm, maybe that cheap apartment you're renting doesn't seem like such a good idea when you see the types of friends you son makes, but at least your wife is home to watch! What, she wants to see the world outside your door once and a while to? Well, you can't really afford tickets to anything or more than McDonalds, but she's welcome to see anything within walking distance! I sure hope your kids can get scholarships, 'cause you sure can't afford to help them out....

Stop and think about what it really takes to raise a family of four on $30-40k/year today (most people make less than us L337 IT jockeys). Can it be done? Of course, but you give up a hell of a lot of good opportunities not just for you, but for your children.

Granted, I am fairly vehemently anti-corporate/advertising, but having spent the last 10 months on one income as my wife is on maternity leave, I can tell you you lose a lot more than crap you didn't really want in the first place. You miss good opportunities with the bad, which is why my wife is going back to work shortly.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[M. Silver]

We had satellite (and gave it up because we weren't watching it; Netflix is a better use of the money), still have a cell phone (we'd probably lose the landline if the DSL wasn't on it), a company-provided pager (unfortunately), but no new car. My husband drives a 17-year-old beater to work (it's ugly, but it's a 1-ton truck and gets 25 mpg, so it's eminently practical), I drive a nine-year-old minivan that's still in excellent shape. We're putting money aside so when time comes to buy another (non-new, probably another program car), we'll pay cash again.

My hobby business made enough to buy a 29" TV (I think it was... ) a couple Christmases ago. And we do have high-speed DSL, with static IPs, for the Phoenyx, so that's an extra $40ish every month we don't have to spend but do.

And we regularly support nonprofits... tithing at our church, public broadcasting (TV/radio), food banks, etc.

On the other hand, I'm not dressing my preschooler at The Gap and Old Navy, so that makes a difference. He wears mostly secondhand stuff, in fact - makes more sense when they seldom wear clothes out. Heck, *I* wear the occasional secondhand find, though since I'm not working I don't need to overdress so my wardrobe's cheaper these days even new (another one of those hidden bennies).

It's all in where you want to spend it, I guess.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[bechthros]

"Unfortunately, frugality will land you in a neighborhood that will surround your children with all the wrong influences."

That's a faulty assumption. Frugality can certainly lead to you living in the core/hood/ghetto, but it can just as easily lead to your living way out in the country, where land is much cheaper. My parents live in the sticks and rent a house for three figures a month that would cost millions in the city. And it's waterfront property, too.

"Everyone is living life to their credit limit. If you don't you'll be surrounded by hoodlum neighbors and pisspoor schools."

That statement is a) an extremely poor justification of the continuing trend of most Americans living waaaaay beyong their means, oblivious to the obvious consequences (ain't nothin free); b) vastly overbroad - many public schools in the city are bad, but many are good too, they just don't get any press cuz nobody gets shot there (and just a reminder - Columbine wasn't in the hood); c) *incredibly* prejudiced. Some of the economically poorest neighboorhoods I've ever lived in have been some of the richest in terms of human spirit and community, and have had some of the most kind-hearted, generous, human people I've ever met. Yes there were plenty of bad people there too, just like there's good and bad people in every city, in every neighboorhood, rich or poor. Duh. In the second place, frugality does not automatically equate with living in a "bad" (read: "poor") neighborhood - my current frugality led me to take a job as an apartment building manager in a wealthy, brittle, racist suburban community (where I don't have to pay rent).

I think it's sad that you're so locked into such narrow perceptions. The world is a big place. You should try it sometime.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[ryanwright]

Screw social skills; these kids aren't taught anything of the real world, less their wee lil' minds be corrupted by the evil sinners that don't believe in jesus! Bah.

Ah, I see. The source of your hatred is not homeschoolers, it's Christians. Too bad.

So sit down and STFU.

This is an open forum. I can and will say whatever I darn well please.

Unlike you, I want my children to have a better life than I do: and this means raising them as normal people who are equipped to function in the real world.

Normal people like you? People who hate others simply because they believe in Jesus Christ? That's quite a healthy attitude to be teaching your children. I hope and pray they can see through your hatred, instead of being blindly led by it.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's better you don't know.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[winwar]

Uh, nice listing of links. Hope you realize that most are worthless and not what people asked for.... Most are about as good for proof as slashdot posts (I said it, so it must be true...) Some reference some crappy studies (studies with inherent problems that make them less than useful for their intended purpose). Studies by think tanks are NOT scientific studies, they are opinion pieces.

This is about the only link that is worth anything:
http://learninfreedom.org/socialization .html

References Shyer's work. Seems decent. But without looking at it, who knows.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[raile]

Do you agree, or do you think I'm taking it too far? I actually think I may have... oh well.

No, you're not taking it too far. It sounds like you're on the right path and might want to read up on the voluntary simplicity movement (which is mostly just a subset of beliefs from buddhism).

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Alexei]

True, but the lawyers always make sure their half is in the form of cash.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

don't forget all those real social butterfly homeschoolers who you'll find at this site.

seriously though, you sound like an offended home school kid. I happen to know (and be related to) kids who are home schooled and yes, they do suffer from the lack of every day social interaction that a 'normal' school would provide.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[rk]

Home schooling is no better either. What you get there are socially inept children who are coddled and shielded from the real world.

Hello. Overgeneralize much?

Here's my view on the so-called social skills one gets from public school. There's no reason kids can't get social interaction from something not school, especially given your suggestion that one parent should stay home with the kids (which I do agree with in general, so don't feel like I'm disagreeing with you there).

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[ryanwright]

Fine, if you don't like the "crappy studies" referenced, why don't you provide some of your own to backup your side of the issue?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[yourmom16]

thus a whole group of kids who come up using and hacking the MS environment.

But most of the hacking on windows boxen is not the kind they want.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Joe the Lesser]

Oh, I gotta write that monkey quote down.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

i read his post thinking it was putting down homeschooling because of the lack of real-world education it provides... see the line you quoted "Screw social skills; these kids aren't taught anything of the real world". You read his post and got defensive. Remember, you threw the first punch with your "doesn't know jack" crap.

While learning about religious topics is well and good it is important that children can develop skills in all areas. nlindstrom is saying that through his personal experience, he knows firsthand that a homeschool education poses the risk of ignoring many important educational topics in order to focus on things that are not necessarily going to be very pertinent in your professional future.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Slime-dogg]

In a normal country, if a child picked up a CD that had explicit lyrics, and the parent did not like that CD, the parent could throw the CD out. The U.S., however, is a country where a child can file for divorce from his or her parents. The child can also go running to government services and complain about abuse.

The U.S., in it's effort to provide a safe "out" for the children in real trouble, have effectively outlawed the majority of parenting techniques. Things such as "yelling" and "spanking" are now viewed as "abusive behaviors." Given all of this, is it likely that the parent is going to take away the child's property?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

And then you have me, I was homeschooled in middle-of-nowhere, Missouri. Nearest neighbor with a kid my age was a 45 minute bike ride away and they were just as liable to throw rocks at me as play with me. Not every homeschooler gets these groups and crap.

I grew up to be very unsocial.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[oddfox]

Well gee, I wonder why middle-class white kids purchase the most hip-hop records? Maybe because they have the most exposure to resources such as MTV and usually pay attention to what's new on the radio. Not to mention middle-class white kids have more money for buying CDs. It's all economics.

Unless you're trying to imply that hip-hop should be limited to black fans only, but that's just silly.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[ipfwadm]

Now I will link you to the results of a study that show 74 percent of homeschooled adults aged 18 to 24 have taken college-level courses, compraed to 46 percent of the general U.S. population. Link. In other words, a large majority of homeschoolers are going on to college, compared to less than half of everyone else. This tells me these parents are doing a better job than the teachers you place your trust in.

First off, I'll admit that I didn't read the link. I'm responding merely to your words, which do not support the conclusion that home schooling, on average, is better than public education. You are assuming that correlation proves causation, which we all know is a logical fallacy. The only thing you have proven is that more kids that are home schooled have taken a college level course.

I would assume (I'll invite you to contradict this) that the majority of inner-city kids are not home schooled, the main reason being that mom and dad, if they're both around, are working all the time and don't have time to homeschool. At the same time, inner-city kids as a whole are less likely to go to college anyway.

My point is that the kids that tend to be homeschooled are probably the same kids that tend to go to college in the first place.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[bechthros]

"Maybe both parents work to put food on the table and pay the mortgage? You ever think of that? We were not all born with silver spoons."

If both parents are working all the time just to put food on the table and pay the mortage, then something's seriously wrong. There are solutions other than the two extremes - absolute poverty vs. absolute comfort. There really is a happy medium.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[c0dedude]

I know that guy! No, seriously, he's my Multivar Prof! The monkey is named Leaky, after the archaeologist, not the fact that Leaky is, well, leaky.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[CrayzyJ]

Yeah, what's wrong are the house prices. Sure, I could move to Northern Canada and be a moose farmer, but let's be pragmatic. You want a modest house that is commutable to your job, you pay for it.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[CrayzyJ]

"I would wholeheartedly suggest you sell your home and move to a lower cost of living area."

My commute is long enough, thanks for the crappy advice.

" Before you do that, get a copy of quicken (or GNUCash or MS Money or even a spreadsheet) and track where your expenses go"

Any other great ideas?

The problem is the cost of living.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[UnrefinedLayman]

The income of one person cannot support the family of 4 unless you have a really good job.

Now is a good time to point out that maybe if these coffee chugging, SUV driving soccer moms would use a fucking contraceptive every now and then they wouldn't HAVE four kids. People who have as many kids as they damned well please epitomize the American way: fuck everyone else, I'm doing what *I* want.

Maybe when their kids, who will probably live to be 80 years old, are suffering in a world of over 35 billion people near the end of this century, the geometric growth of the world will start to slow down juuuuuuuust a little bit.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[vDave420]

Home schooling is no better either. What you get there are socially inept children who are coddled and shielded from the real world.

This is not correct.

Homeschooling does not imply this, it simply makes it a more likely situation if not addressed.

I was homeschooled for years, and I think I am fairly well socially adjusted. Not perfect, but who is?

I will admit that it required significant effort both by my parents and myself to prevent social isolation, but it was preventable.

For one thing, co-ops or other loose groups of homeschooling parents in a geographic area can collaborate.

The problem is certainly addressable, in any case, and as a result of my vastly improved education from homeschooling versus public schooling, I found myself quite ahead of all my classmates when I finally went to a public school in 10th grade. So far ahead, in fact, that the rest of High School was basically a catch-up waiting game. I didn't have to put much effort into scholastics at that point (since my 9th grade homeschool education exceeded 12th grade public school "average" performance/standards), and got to focus more on polishing any social behaviors necessary for the real world that may have been missing.

All in all I think I am much better off as a result of homeschooling, with at most only a faint hint of the problem you described.

-dave-

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[nelsonal]

Leave the entire city, suburbs and all and move to a completely different city (with a lower cost of living). If you live in New York, Boston, San Francisco (or the valley), or Seattle you are living in some of the most expensive real estate in the country. Try looking in Phoenix, Austin, Omaha, Denver, Minneapolis/St Paul, or smaller population centers (cost of living will be surprisingly lower). Yeah they are less exciting and there are some trade offs, but your trade off for living in an expensive population center is that you have to pay more for everything that isn't shipped from somewhere else. Life is full of choices, if you make one don't whine about the results of that choice.
I'd agree with some of the other posts in the thread that Americans spend an amazing amount of money on crap and the culture seems to be moving toward marginalizing any attempt to spend less on crap. You might be amazed how much of your budget is made up of things that are incedental and cutting them out might be easier than you think. I know I was after I started looking closely at where each dollar of my spending was going. Perhaps I'm wrong and you are house poor, in which case I wish you the very best, and hope you get a raise soon, (labor budgets were up 3-4% nationally I hope you get more than that).

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Wes Janson]

If the world were perfect, the RIAA would exist only in the past tense, and in the present tense as a testing group for new "information removal" techniques to use on Al Qaeda.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[ryanwright]

My point is that the kids that tend to be homeschooled are probably the same kids that tend to go to college in the first place.

Point taken, and one that I can agree with. Nevertheless - if this many are getting into college, then the situation "thamaht" presented ("By the time she got to public school for her senior year, she could barely pass the classes, because she hadn't learned the foundations yet") is an isolated incident. People who barely pass high school courses don't typically get into, or survive in, college.

I was trying to find a survey that shows the % of homeschooled children who actually hold a college degree, rather than who simply "took college courses." I remember reading something awhile back that showed homeschoolers were more likely to have a college degree, but I can't find it now.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[bechthros]

Although I couldn't agree more about black racism,
I feel compelled to point out that what you are talking about is rap music and rappers, quite different from hip-hop music and MC's. Rap is exactly what you described. Hip-hop is the flip side to that coin, the kind that values intelligence, self-respect, and morals. If you're ready for the rebuttal to everything you just described, check out Jurassic 5, Kool Keith, Dialated Peoples, Prince Paul or Black Star. There's a lot out there that you apparently haven't heard - if you liked Public Enemy, don't lose heart, progressive and intelligent hip-hop exists, it's just deep deep underground.

Funny thing about sex and violence, we keep buying it.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Tenareth]

That was the landscape 5 or 10 years ago, recently homeschooling has gained more ground due to poor Math and Science teaching in public school, moreso than Religious reasons.

Granted, there are still those that are taking kids out of school for religious reasons, and that's generally bad because they don't give them a good science background.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Rinikusu]

Anecdotal, I know, but most homeschooled children who were homeschooled from the start are a bunch of pasty-white pansies who have no idea how to behave in a "social situation". However, this is greatly outweighed by the fact that they also seem to think of things in a different manner than their public schooled counterparts and are less likely to give a fuck about what's "cool." They're also quite able to get along fabulously on their own, tend to be more actively literate, and more able to think critically about current events and life decisions. In short, they're interesting to be around. I also find similar traits in kids who ran away from home at early ages and had to get their education "on the streets" rather than a regimented classroom. The street kids seem to be innundated with jaded thoughts about society (like cops, they see the bad of society 24/7), though, which can be a great hindrance to their "success". However, who said the current definition of "success" (SUV, house in the burbs, TV in every room) was the right one? :P

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[bechthros]

"the voluntary simplicity movement "

don't forget the quakers. A little wierd but their hearts are firmly in the right place. Simplicity is a highly undervalued commodity, and one that I think there's a potentially huge market for. I mean, who do you know that *doesn't* think their life is too complicated?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[ryanwright]

I don't usually reply to ACs, but you're an insightful one:

While learning about religious topics is well and good it is important that children can develop skills in all areas.

You're right. I would suggest that anyone who wants to keep their children home solely based on the religious aspect is wrong to do so. You can send your children to a public school and teach them religion in the evenings.

The parent poster hates Christians and homeschoolers because he was taught nothing but 8 hours of Bible reading every day. No wonder he's so bitter: He had bad parents who didn't do their job. I'd be bitter, too.

We are Christians. We teach religion. It encompasses maybe 5% of our children's total schooling. The other 95% is the same stuff they would learn at school, only at their pace, and they get to explore subjects that schools don't offer (my 7 year old is learning Latin. Latin!! She said she wanted to learn so we bought her a training program. She's been listening to the CDs regularly for a week now, all on her own with no prompting from us.)

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[bechthros]

"The use of a rating system is basically a tool for parents to do their job."

I agree with this in theory, however I think it's truly remarkable how many parents still manage to put in zero time raising their kids even with the tools of not only record/CD ratings, but movie ratings, TV ratings, video game ratings, nutrition facts on food, warning labels on umpteen million products... they don't do any good when the parents still feed their kids McDonalds and let them watch R rated movies. The only cure for this problem is better parenting, period. As long as society accepts the excuse from bad parents that "we just didn't *know*! We don't have the *tools*!" then the bad parents will keep using that excuse. At some point we need to put our foot down and stop accepting this excuse.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[kin_korn_karn]

a sort of tapioca pudding, served up at baptist church youth meetings.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Dun Malg]

I should also add that "tit" as a slang for a woman's breast did not show up in print until 1928, making it doubly unlikely that "titbit" was changed by Americans because they considered it obscene. In fact, it appears that the slang usage of "tit" originated in the US. Earliest recorded print usage:

1928 in A. W. Read Classical Amer. Graffiti (1935) 80 A girl may sit & finger her tits and play with her cunt all day.

Finally getting my money's worth out of this dang OED thing!

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[cheekyboy]

Only in america is it BAD mkay to show a tit, yet its ok to show americans shoving naked iraqis heads into the crouches of other iraqis 'so called prisoners with no charges which are later released'.

Id say if every channel had tits , and nude beaches people would be all too happy to make wars.

I agree tho, the governments job is security and law to prevent chaos, not to be our parents, otherwise they can pay my rent and credit card bills too.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[bechthros]

But there's a happy medium. Your commute might get a little longer if you moved farther out, but wouldn't paying thousands less in mortgage and property taxes be worth it? Alternatively, I have yet to see a city where there's not a nice neighborhood that's inner-city enough to be affordable. Most cities with public schools, fire departments, etc, have residency requirements for their teachers, firemen, etc. Find out where most public school teachers/firemen/policemen live in your city and my guess is you'll find an affordable yet urban neighborhood. Quit locking yourself into bad solutions and then bitching about them.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[cheekyboy]

I agree, the traditional school probably breads more socially enept mean mosters of utter greed and back stabing that leads to criminals.
Schools should be like bigbrother/survivor, if someone is a dick, you vote em off and say, "goodbye"

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[cheekyboy]

umm yeah, so what is school for? learning, out of an average 6hr day, you spend 90% of the time either reading/writing or learning, not chatting and having fun. So out of the average week if you spend say, 7hrs in social interaction, whats wrong with 4/days a week home school, and 1 day fun out all day with the other home school kids.

If you can avoid morons while growing up you'll be a happier person. The big problem is large schools, just like putting 100000 animals in a cage, they go crazy, same as schools, to make nice humans, you need small schools/small classes of max size of 10..14 in size. Just like bacteria if its crowded it goes mad. Smaller classes make it easier to weed out the bad ones, larger classes make it easier for bad ones to form groups and be dicks/gangs.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[cheekyboy]

The way my wife shops, every dollar she
can earn is one dollar less I have to go without :)

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[spare.dave]

Perhaps I should introduce you to the group of home schooled children in the town I grew up. They were, for the most part, your stereotypical socially inept, coddled, and shielded kids. They were also really scary religious fundamentalists.

Do I get a +1, Was Home Schooled?

Not that public school is any better. The harassment I received there was the reason I was home schooled in the first place.

The schooling has NOTHING to do with it. It all comes down to the parents and environment the kid is raised in.

I'm tired of hearing home schooling as some amazing system producing brilliant kids. It's a system like any other, and dependent on many factors.

My best friend was also taught at home. We both ended up doing okay. I'm studying design in Japan, and he's a scuba instructor in Thailand. Little Katie got pregnant at 18 and moved in with the dude from the gas station. The same story could be told about any form of schooling.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Couldn't agree more... My wife and I sat down and ran the numbers

day care

extra transportation (gas, repairs, wear and tear)

more lunches

nicer wardrobe

higher tax bracket

no free time on weekends because we are trying to get all the errands done or do laundry or clean the house

fast food and eating out because we were too tired to cook

both being too tired to enjoy what little time we would have with the kids

no time for each other

having to take time off of one of our jobs for service calls, doctor visits etc

but the time it was all said and done, one of us was working for

We don't drive new cars.

We bought an older house and sold our relativly new house

My wife cooks dinners

She bargain shops

She teaches our daughter (3 yr old who reads on a 1st grade level, writes complete sentences, does 1st grade math, and is amazingly social)

Weekends are for fun, not laundry and cleaning

Its all about priorities...

We met a couple at breakfast the other day, and they were expecting a child in 6 months. The asked what we do, and when my wife told them what she does, they said they couldn't do that. I asked why, and they say they were planning to build a new house, and they couldn't do that on one income. Not the only time I've heard similar statements. They were driving a brand new car too... All about priorities.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[bgeer]

So let me get this straight, you are claiming that
(a) Popular culture has no influence on normalizing the behavior of children, they are only influenced by their parents.
(b) Only Americans disagree with (a).

I guess you think that children of only-Spanish-speaking parents who live in English-speaking countries never learn English either, right? Under your theory, if the only English they heard outside their Spanish-speaking home used "explicit lyrics," as you put it, when they spoke English would they replace those explicit terms with more genteel Spanish equivalents or would they instinctively seek out a dictionary to learn the English equivalents? Or is your theory silly? I am not even going to argue with (b), it's obviously untrue.

For a more in-depth rebuttal, have a look at some of the science that's been done in this area, for instance the story of introduction of television into Bhutan.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[zerocool^]

God damn, agreed.

I've recorded a bunch of stuff, and it sounds pretty good (as a quality comparason, I was on a few of the songs at www.atomicraygunattack.com). But, you put it on a CD next to a modern band, and it's just not loud enough. Even though it's already clipping.

God, that sucks. But, when you're trying to make it big, you don't want to be the band that the label exec has to turn up the volume to hear.

Sigh.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[zerocool^]

For double irony points, guess the race of the CEOs of the entertainment conglomerates that make the most money out of selling this memeset to blacks.

I'm going to go ahead with "Jewish".

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pearl Jam, with a holier-than-thou Bible-thumper lead singer who nonetheless manages to get into barfights. And the music? Play one Creed song, you've heard them all, they have very little variety . And they suck live...

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[M. Silver]

Well, yeah, you do have to factor in that if your wife's not working she has more time to shop. For some people, that can more than offset any other savings...

(In our household, I'm the cheapskate, *he's* the big spender, so twasn't a problem for us.)

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[zaphod_bee4]

Geez, If I had a penny for every time I heard someone say that I could pay the fines for every music downloader out there. I mean seriously where are your substantiating facts for that statement? I was homeschooled. Many of my friends were homeschooled. Statistically speaking Homeschooled childern come our better socially adjusted than public school kids. Anyway that's just my two cents. here's some of those statistics by the way just so you can see I'm not speaking out of my tush. #1 #2

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[MrResistor]

Most of us who say home-schooled kids are socially inept are speaking from personal experience. Personally, I've never met anyone who was home schooled who wasn't socially inept, and your strawman example doesn't even begin to refute that.

Socially inept children don't walk up to other kids and say, "Hi, I'm Katie. What's your name? Do you want to go play on the slide with me?"

Actually, yes they do. Gee, great, so they walk up and introduce themselves. Then they proceed to act in irritating, overbearing, self-righteous ways.

Making friends isn't just 2 kids meeting for the first time and playing together for a while. The day after your little experiment, why don't you try asking if SocializedKid wants to go over to HomeSchooledKid's house to play. I'll bet they won't.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, to be fair rap is just the style of singing.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[wmelon]

Unfortunately this isnt a problem with the mastering engineers. Its more that the producer says to heck with the dynamic range, this album must be the loudest ever and if the engineer wants to get more work he pretty much has to listen.
Mixerman's Journal [ink19.com] is an amusing look into the world of a professional mixing/mastering engineer.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[MrResistor]

Once a kid is ten years old, he starts to understand different things, and what to do and not to do. However, before that age, children can only imitate what they hear (which sucks if they grow up in a home with parents yelling at each other).

I don't know who told you that, but they were quite wrong. Maybe it takes that long for a kid to figure it out on their own, but a child that has someone to teach them what's appropriate is quite capable of learning, even at your brothers age.

Case in point: my 4-year-old daughter. My wife, who is a cop, and whose dad is a trucker, has a potty mouth that could make a sailor blush, and seems to be incapable of controlling it in casual situations (she's very professional while on the job). Our daughter is thus exposed to all manner of foul language on a regular basis, and has been her entire life, and yet she hardly ever uses that kind of language, and has never (to my knowledge) done so in a situation where it would be considered inappropriate.

Kids learn context at a very young age. Any kid that has multiple caregivers knows before the age of 2 what behaviors each caregiver will tolerate (or not), and will modify their behavior accordingly while in their presence.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[sootman]

"...considering all the hoo-ha that went on over Janet Jacksons b--b..."

OK, I figured out "boob" but... I give up. What letter is missing from "hoo-ha"? ;-)

Don't mind me, it just struck me as funny.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[ipfwadm]

the situation "thamaht" presented ("By the time she got to public school for her senior year, she could barely pass the classes, because she hadn't learned the foundations yet") is an isolated incident.

I would tend to agree, though I think there are certainly cases where kids are homeschooled for the wrong reasons. And in some of these cases, the parents could be pretty darn bad at it. But as you mentioned elsewhere, all of us that went to public schools have had some pretty darn bad teachers as well.

I do think a lot of homeschooled kids lead sheltered lives, for better or for worse. Note that I don't say "most" or "a majority", because I have no idea. I have nothing but anecdotal evidence. For instance, last fall I was hiking a piece of the Appalachian Trail in Vermont, and spent a night with a father and his son, who was homeschooled, and at about the grade 8 level. Someone had left some porno mags in a paper bag in the privy, and the father found them, and promptly brought them to where we had a fire going, and tossed them in. His son asked a number of times what they were, which is father would not answer. He said "I'll tell you when you're older." Now to me, that's a perfectly UNacceptable response. The kid was old enough that he should at least have had some sort of sexual education by this point. He's old enough to be able to be made aware of the existence of porn. I mean really, at some point he's going to move out from under dad's umbrella, and he's going to find out about this stuff on his own. Why pass up the opportunity to let him make that discovery while under parental supervision? Now I'm not suggesting that dad flip through the pages and point out the wide open beaver. I'm saying that at the very least he should have explained to him what the magazines were, and if he didn't want him looking at such magazines, to explain his reasoning. Denying the existence of porn is just ridiculous.

Now, could this kid be just as sheltered in this regard if he were enrolled in public school? Sure. But at the same time, I think one reason a lot of parents pull kids out of public schools is to shelter them from all the bad stuff that is on display there. Unfortunately, a lot of the bad stuff on display in schools is the same bad stuff on display in the rest of the world, so at some point the kid is going to be exposed to it. Keeping them away from this stuff while they're kids is, again, often unrealistic. Exposing them to it but providing guidance about it is much more productive.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Jim_Maryland]

Your right that not all parents spend the proper amount of time raising their kids. The problem isn't the tools available, but how parents use them (or if they don't use them, they still need to make the proper parenting decisions without them). The best tools won't work if they are not used.

I actually like my father's theory on responsibility . He maintains that even though his four kids are grown up (age range 28 - 34), he is responsible for the fact that we are here and ultimately responsible for our actions. While we've moved away from home and started families of our own, he still feels a responsibility to make sure we don't screw things up.

The world is going to have a combination of good and bad parents. Not much we can do about it without over stepping boundaries. All we can do is provide tools that hopefully parents will use to assist in making informed decisions. It's not perfect, but it will have to do.

Even without the tools, parents are responsible for their kids so the excuse about not having the tools is invalid.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[sulaco252]

Try reading the parent who seems to suggest that blacks are the only audience for this type of music. I was merely pointing out that this is not the case.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Troed]

No, I'm claiming that there's no problem whatsoever in children hearing words - no matter what words. If the words are inappropriate in different social contexts it's up to the parents to explain that to them.

Actually I find it quite funny that americans think you can do it any other way.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[basingwerk]

I'm surprised you couldn't work out that this was a typo.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[cloudmaster]

Well, "titbit" isn't something I've heard over here before, and it stands to reason that if one "t" was gonna be replaced at the end of the first syllable, why not replace the other "t" too? I know what a "tidbit" is, but non-Americans English is different in several ways, so perhaps a "tidbid" is something else - like a variant of "titbid" or something... :)

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[hawkfish]

I agree with most of your post, but I have to take issue with this statement (which appears to be at odds with the rest of the post):

Home schooling is no better either. What you get there are socially inept children who are coddled and shielded from the real world.

First, a joke from a friend of mine who homeschooled here 4 boys (one of whom is autistic, which you would have a hard time telling if you talked to him today): "We used to work on socialization all the time. Once a week I would take the kids into the bathroom and steal their lunch money."

More seriously, for a comprehensive look at the history and goals of American public education, please have a look at this book. Non-americans may also find this interesting as the author describes a number of educational traditions from around the world, including the dominant European and Chinese models, both of which have had major influences on the American model. His hyperbole gets away from him at times, but all the facts I have spot-checked hold up.

If you don't have time for the book, the short rebuttal to your statement is as follows: compulsory education is only about 200 years old (if you count from when Prussia started doing it) and people were not noticably more socially inept before that time. In fact, the opposite argument is usually made.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[ryanwright]

I would tend to agree, though I think there are certainly cases where kids are homeschooled for the wrong reasons. And in some of these cases, the parents could be pretty darn bad at it.

Absolutely!

His son asked a number of times what they were, which is father would not answer. He said "I'll tell you when you're older." Now to me, that's a perfectly UNacceptable response. The kid was old enough that he should at least have had some sort of sexual education by this point.

Again, we agree. My opinion on this matter is: If the child is old enough to ask the question, then he is old enough to get an honest answer. I can't believe that someone would shelter a child from that in the 8th grade. We took sex ed in 4th and 5th.

Now, could this kid be just as sheltered in this regard if he were enrolled in public school? Sure.

Actually, I doubt it. He'd learn it from the other kids. Which is fine, he needs to.

But at the same time, I think one reason a lot of parents pull kids out of public schools is to shelter them from all the bad stuff that is on display there. Unfortunately, a lot of the bad stuff on display in schools is the same bad stuff on display in the rest of the world, so at some point the kid is going to be exposed to it.

Right on both counts. There is nothing wrong with sheltering your children and letting them be children without the worries of adulthood. However, you need to ensure they are taught about those worries when the time is right.

An example: A friend of ours was complaining because her 5 year old - in Kindergarten - came home wearing lipstick and makeup. Another little girl on the school bus was sharing it with her. Her parents asked her why she was wearing it, and she repeated the line she'd been told by her new little friend: "It makes me look sexy for boys."

I was so glad my daughter was homeschooled at that point. Yeah, she needs to know about boys and sex, and she will - around the 4th and 5th grade (9-10 years of age). 5 year olds shouldn't have to worry about this stuff. I really have a problem with a child that young trying to look "sexy for boys."

Exposing them to it but providing guidance about it is much more productive.

I plan to put computers in my children's bedrooms when they get a little older. I also plan to monitor - but not restrict - their Internet access. My theory is, if they decide to look at porn, I'm not going to stop them, but I want to know about it so we can sit down and have "that talk."

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[ryanwright]

Actually, yes they do. Gee, great, so they walk up and introduce themselves. Then they proceed to act in irritating, overbearing, self-righteous ways.

Only those who are raised by parents that act the same way. Granted, there are a lot of them out there, and these people probably shouldn't be homeschooling their kids, but you have to take the bad with the good.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[CrayzyJ]

"Your commute might get a little longer if you moved farther out, but wouldn't paying thousands less in mortgage and property taxes be worth it?"

Did that already.

"ost cities with public schools, fire departments, etc, have residency requirements for their teachers, firemen, etc."

moved too far away for that.

"Quit locking yourself into bad solutions and then bitching about them."

go f- yourself. Nobody was bitching. I was merely pointing out to the original poster that having a single income was not always possible. I am VERY happy in my situation, thank you.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[CrayzyJ]

"if you make one don't whine about the results of that choice. "

Hey asshat, nobody whined. I was merely pointing out that a single income was not possible. Wake the f up.

To do what I do, (which I love doing) I am locked into a very select few cities. Moving to Djibouti is not an 0ption.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

Europeans NEVER do that, do they Troed? Did an American steall your girlfriend or kick your ass or soemthing? What's your problem with everybody in America? Seriously, you generalize way too much. Are you a support of decapitations now or has your taste soured for that and your monthly donation ceased?

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[nelsonal]

I wasn't trying to attack, sorry. I'm curious what you do? I work in investment management and would never have imagined that there were jobs such as this in places besides NY, Denver, Boston, or SF.

/Lives in a pretty dang small town (30,000).

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why I would never have kids in America.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Punboy]

Hey man, I was homeschooled until just a little bit ago. I'm not socially inept. As a matter of fact I was voted "Most Socially Outgoing" and "Most Likeable Personality" at the highschool I now attend. So please don't make generalized statements about homeschooled people. What you say is true about some, but it depends on the parents who school them and their intentions with homeschooling.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[GreeboNZ]

If it were perfect, music creators too would give away the product (music IP), and sell the process (concerts, official recordings with booklets and all). It sounds like it could work out as a fairly good deal for the artist: you make money AND your fans think you're all generous and altruistic, so you can probably even convince them to 'donate' to you as well. That model seems to be working fairly well for software, after all..

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[bechthros]

"Did that already. / moved too far away for that."

Well obviously, Einstein, you can't live in the sticks and the city, unless you can afford two homes, which you obviously can't - or, more to the point, won't, because you're too busy bitching about how impossible your life is to actually solve any problems.

"go f- yourself."

Real intelligent, asshole. All I was trying to do was point out some possible solutions and offer advice, but shove it up your fucking ass - if you can fit it in there alongside the giant stick lodged up there. You obviously want to do one thing - bitch. So go ahead and complain and whine and moan about how hard life is on you cuz you have to live in the suburbs. And when people try and offer you helpful advice, you get even more belligerent and complain about *that*. Poor fucking baby, boo hoo. My heart fucking bleeds.

Understand one thing, dickmunch - there's people in America much less fortunate than you, people who have trouble feeding their kids, people who don't even have a job, who are not only solving their problems creatively, but living happy, productive, enjoyable lives. The minute you're ready to join us, just grab that stick lodged in your ass firmly with both hands and pull. It only hurts until it's all the way out, unless it leaves splinters.

So fuck YOU. With an attitude like yours, that's all life is gonna do anyway. And it will be because you deserve it. It will be because you have earned it with the sweat of your brow.

"Nobody was bitching... I am VERY happy in my situation"

On the other hand, you also say...

"We were not all born with silver spoons."

"My commute is long enough, thanks for the crappy advice."

"a single income was not possible. Wake the f up."

"what's wrong are the house prices. Sure, I could move to Northern Canada and be a moose farmer"

And, just for good measure, "AAMCO transmissions ripped me off."

Yeah, you're just thrilled. You're not complaining about anything. Certainly not bitching. And *definitely* not abusive. Look, if you can make enough to live in the suburbs but can't make ends meet, you deserve whatever you get - which I personally hope is pure shit, seeing as how that's what would make you the happiest, since it would give you the most to bitch about.

There's two kinds of people in the boat of life - bailers and leakers. If your life sucks that bad you have two options - change it (warning: requires creativity) or end it.

Loser.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[bechthros]

Well, I doubt you're even reading this since you posted AC, but ...

In the beginning, there was rap. It was spawned from the old-school legends like Kool Herc, Grandmaster Flash and/or Mellie Mel and the Furious Five, and the Sugar Hill Gang. This evolved rapidly until what most people consider to be the seminal moment when rap entered the mainstream - Run DMC and Aerosmith's "walk this way".

Past this point is where you get the divergence between hip-hop and rap. The two sub-genres slowly separated themselves until the early 90's, when the schism was blatent.

While it is true that what hip-hop MC's do is rapping, that doesn't make it rap music any more than Linkin Park is. Rapping itself goes back to 1970's Jamaican toasting, and has been employed in musical genres from metal to industrial to the much-fabled "alternative".

Rap music includes, but is not limited to: Run DMC; NWA; Tupac Shakur; Ice Cube; Notorious BIG; Jay-Z.

Hip-hop music includes, but is not limited to: Black star and it's component parts, Mos Def and Talib Qweli; Jurassic 5; Atmosphere; Living legends crew (Grouch, Slug, Aesop Rock); Anyone from Native Tongues crew (Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul); Hieroglyphics / Del tha Funkee Homosapien.

Most of the aforementioned hip-hop acts' lyrics are intelligent, politically- and economically-aware, and non-misogynist.

Hope this helps.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[jedidiah]

It doesn't matter how good the best school is in the inner city. This is the age of busing. You may suddenly find your child surrounded by the worst hoods in the city. This is WHY there are suburbs.

Some 100 year old farming village that has been surrounded up by the metroplex is not going to have crips on the other side of town to worry about.

Now, the notion of going out EVEN FARTHER is simply absurd. That's only going to reduce your job prospects, increase your commute and/or subject your children to some underfunded farm county school district.

I am not "prejudiced": I AM FROM THE HOOD.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

you call "Quit locking yourself into bad solutions and then bitching about them" a possible solution and advice.

hahahahaha. nice. Maybe the parent would not have become upset if you used a little tact.

Re:RIAA Criminally At Fault?

[bechthros]

actually, I do... and I gave just as much tact as I got. Fair's fair.

I've thought long and hard about this...

[P-Frank]

I think fire is the solution.

Re:I've thought long and hard about this...

[boarder8925]

I think fire is the solution.

I'll donate some gasoline to help.

Re:I've thought long and hard about this...

[Ateryx]

Ob. quote from Empire Records:
"Listening to that shit's going to make you go sterile" - AJ

Re:I've thought long and hard about this...

[tickleboy2]

For the CDs or for the RIAA? Oh... both! My bad.... sorry. :D

Re:I've thought long and hard about this...

[RoboOp]

I have a better idea.

Let the school librarians pick through this garbage the RIAA crapped upon them. Whatever is left is boxed up, then placed on the chest of the president of the RIAA.

If you think that is harsh, then how about forcing the RIAA executives to peddle this 'largess' on the street corners? They have to sell 3/4 of the CD's to individual customers, and until they do the RIAA is shutdown, and the offices padlocked.

Re:I've thought long and hard about this...

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. Let's burn them at the stake.

Oh wait sorry, we're talking about the CDs?

Re:I've thought long and hard about this...

[goodhell]

Fire? While fire is usually a good solution to many things (like the ugly towels my wife and I got for our wedding and can't return anywhere), in this case there is a better solution. One that has practical science applications.

Microwave!

Re:I've thought long and hard about this...

[unixbugs]

I agree. Next time I get a traffic ticket I'm going to take all my garbage/beer cans to the courthouse and assign value to it for payment. If they give me any shit I'll just cite the precedence set here. Rediculous.

Re:I've thought long and hard about this...

[Impeesa]

I think fire is the solution.

I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

A little Robert Frost for you there.

What was the RIAA thinking?

[suso]

Let's turn minus, into plus.

Surprising how?

[Craig Maloney]

This is surprising how? Not only can the RIAA pay their settlements, but they can also take a tax write-off on unsold product. It's a win-win for the RIAA, and a dubious victory for the lawsuit winners.

Re:Surprising how?

[mfh]

Yeah, they offered all kinds of crappy unsellable junk to the school system, to get a double writeoff. This stuff wouldn't sell on ebay for $1 ea. Oh but they are in a legal quagmire over the explcit lyrics! (tries to hide joy)

Re:Surprising how?

[Ayaress]

Actually, at least in Michigan, the lawsuit winners don't get a dubious victory, they get jack squat. For example, many of the CDs are going to troops in Iraq, which isn't a bad thing, unless you were expecting some of the settlement.

The article only covers a small part of the CDs, but according to WNEM, the settlement CDs are also being placed in all the public non-emergency vehicles in the state (which would include the personal cars of most of the state politicians, refuse collection trucks, mosquito-sprayers, and so on), being given to state employees, and so on. Those people who were to actually benifit from the settlement get a big old goose egg.

Re:Surprising how?

[Jonny Ringo]

and a win for me, now I'm totally comforted with the fact Willenium will always be on hand and ready for me to check out.

Re:Surprising how?

[Alzheimers]

But how will this help the poor starving artists? You think they'll get any royalties out of this?

Think of poor Will Smith! He's had it so bad, he's had to restort to cameos to make ends meet!

Re:Surprising how?

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

> many of the CDs are going to troops in Iraq

"CNN and the BBC is reporting that occupation troops, fuelled by a massive wave of enthusiasm and adrenaline, have retaken all cities that had been overrun by the Sadr militias. Citizens are rejoicing in the streets, shops are open for the first time in weeks, and a butterfly was seen landing on the head of a beautiful little girl in a wheelchair. When asked for a comment, General Tommy Franks said 'Never underestimate the power of the Wu-Tang Clan. And from now on, call me by my Shaolin name 'DefSquad'." When asked for clarification of his cryptic remarks, Franks shouted "36 Chambers be lookin' for ya, al-Zarqawi! Don't be a biatch!" Franks then left in a Humvee that had been freshly pimped by West Coast Customs."

Re:Surprising how?

[Anonymous Coward]

When was the last time you saw a state or local government vehicle with any sort of CD/Tape player. You're lucky to get a radio. More useless crap from an already useless association.

Re:Surprising how?

[hackstraw]

tax write-off on unsold product

Huh? What product? The RIAA is just an industry trade association like the American Plastics Council.

When are people going to realize that the RIAA does not really exist? They are merely a bunch of lawyers that can't get a real job, so they create this thing called the RIAA and guess what? They get paid either way. For a lawsuit against them, for all of these bogus lawsuits against everybody, the lawyers (aka RIAA) will get paid win, lose, or draw.

If I get contaminated beef, who would I sue? Not the beef's trade association, it would be the store or the beef plant that made the bad product.

If I get caught stealing something from the store, the store does not take me to court, they report it to the "proper authorities", and the store people only show up as a witness. I would doubt that there would ever be a trade organization involved.

If I get caught "stealing" music (yes, go on a tangent about this, I dare you), some group of lawyers (RIAA) come after me. Why can't they just report it to the "proper authorities"? I mean, on every movie I have watched at home the fucking FBI says that they will practically kill me if I do anything that violates the copyright on the video. How difficult is it just to turn over the people? That is what everyone else does.

Re:Surprising how?

[Craig Maloney]

Sorry, I didn't make it clear. I meant the companies that are members of the RIAA. You are correct.

Re:Surprising how?

[MagicDude]

Yeah, but how many of these rap CD's with explicit lyrics can go over there? A friend of mine was having a collection for soldiers overseas, and was asking for donations of magazines, writing paper, soap, etc. So my fraternity got together a collection of magazines; sports illustrated, time, newsweek, maxim, stuff, and so on. When we delivered them to the collection site, we were told that all the mens magazines had to be removed, as they aren't allowed in Iraq since they would offend the religious and cultural sensitivities of the Iraqies. Wouldn't these CD's have the same effect?

Re:Surprising how?

[Anonymous Coward]

Franks further noted the astounding recovery of the Iraqi economy was due in full to the efforts of Wu Tang Financial. Bitch.

(my apologies to Dave Chapelle)

Re:Surprising how?

[yourmom16]

They have no pictures and aren't in arabic so the answer is no

Re:Surprising how?

[/dev/trash]

The RIAA doesn't sell CDs. The labels do.

The worst part..

[Sockpuppetofdoom]

Is that this was one huge tax write off for the RIAA. They get to declare full retail price on these CD's on taxes, AND they clear out inventory

Re:The worst part..

[mozkill]

that basically amounts to stealing from tax payers through tax fraud. these bastards need to go out of business. thank god for Bit Torrent.

Re:The worst part..

[korbin_dallas]

Hey, are all these cds 'notched'?

As 'notched' cds are Label promotional items and are specifically labeled as 'not for resale' in the eual fine print (inside the booklet).

I would think that dumping 'notched' cds and claiming a tax writeoff at full retail price is FRAUD!

Re:The worst part..

[Tmack]

What I wonder is if this sort of thing actually qualifies as a tax write-off. Sure, they are "donating" material goods with some (minimal) value, but they are in reality gaining something in return, as in fullfilling requirements from the court to avoid further penalties. Generally this disqualifies any "donation" as a write-off. If you donate some money to a charity for a raffle ticket with the chance of winning something, that donation is not deductable. I would see this as the same sort of thing, they are donating, but gaining releif from lawsuits. Of course, there are enough holes in our Tax system that that probably doesnt mean anything. I also wonder what value they would claim on the write-off? Surely these old CD's that didnt sell are not worth the MSRP, but it wouldnt supprise me that thats the value claimed on them, even though the RIAA's actuall cost would be a very small fraction of that.

tm

Re:The worst part..

[Radish03]

I'm going offtopic, but I'm curious about this concept of notching. In addition to the "not for resale" label you mention, is there a physical notch cut into the case? The reason I'm curious is that this reminds me of two cds I bought from a bargain bin for $5 each. Each has a quarter inch notch cut vertically down about half an inch from the top right corner of the case. It cuts through the plastic as well as the case inserts. I just looked for one of the cds, and I don't see "Not for resale" anywhere, but is this what you meant by "notched?"

Re:The worst part..

[Honkytonkwomen]

How can they get away with claiming the CDs are worth $1.5 million? Those 115,241 CDs are worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $75,000 at current market prices, and probably much less. Oh, wait, I get it....

1. Attorney General's Office gets nice PR by claiming a big settlement
2. RIAA gets good PR by claiming big donation
3. RIAA gets tax writeoff
4. Consumers get screwed
5. School districts get screwed.
6. RIAA profits

Re:The worst part..

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition to the "not for resale" label you mention, is there a physical notch cut into the case?

Yes. "Notching' refers to the practice of cutting a notch into the UPC code. It's typically done to promo copies sent to reviewers.

Re:The worst part..

[hackstraw]

Redundant post, so I'll redundantly post my reply to the original.

Is that this was one huge tax write off for the RIAA. They get to declare full retail price on these CD's on taxes, AND they clear out inventory


Huh? What CDs? What inventory? The RIAA is just an industry trade association like the American Plastics Council, or the National Cattlemen's Beef Association. I don't think the plastics council nor the beef council have inventories of beef, plastic, or CDs.

When are people going to realize that the RIAA does not really exist? They are merely a bunch of lawyers that can't get a real job, so they create this thing called the RIAA and guess what? They get paid either way. For a lawsuit against them, for all of these bogus lawsuits against everybody, the lawyers (aka RIAA) will get paid win, lose, or draw.

If I get contaminated beef, who would I sue? Not the beef's trade association, it would be the store or the beef plant that made the bad product.

If I get caught stealing something from the store, the store does not take me to court, they report it to the "proper authorities", and the store people only show up as a witness. I would doubt that there would ever be a trade organization involved.

If I get caught "stealing" music (yes, go on a tangent about this, I dare you), some group of lawyers (RIAA) come after me. Why can't they just report it to the "proper authorities"? I mean, on every movie I have watched at home the fucking FBI says that they will practically kill me if I do anything that violates the copyright on the video. How difficult is it just to turn over the people? That is what everyone else does.

Re:The worst part..

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, that means they aren't for resale. But whatever, it has no legal force. The first sale doctrine applies in the US (until the RIAA can get Senator Hatch to pass another fun copyright law).

Re:The worst part..

[elemental23]

Yes, that's it. You may also see it as round hole (from a hole punch) in the cover, usually in the middle of the UPC label.

Re:The worst part..

[pavon]

They can't turn you over to the authorities because file sharing is only a civil offense not a criminal one. The state will only procecute you if you have committed a criminal offense, so the record label's only recourse is to sue you in civil court. At least for now.

However, if you make money from copyright infringement then that is a criminal offense, and you the FBI does procecute people over that.

Re:The worst part..

[korbin_dallas]

Yes thats a notched case. Notched cases are (usually) PROMOS that the label sets up for the singers to GIVE away at appearances. My wife got 2 when some singers came to a fundraiser or something where she works. On the inside sleeve or on the back in insanely small letters is a statement with the actual words about 'notched' cases being promo items not for resale, etc. Its similar to ripped paperbacks, meaning they are already paid for (or were never for resale). Regards, JoeR

This is a good thing

[lukewarmfusion]

The RIAA has to be seeing these CDs and thinking, "If people aren't buying Willenium, what are we doing wrong?"

They try to spin this component of the settlement as a heroic act, giving back to the community. Now they won't be able to do even that.

Re:This is a good thing

[MP3Chuck]

" The RIAA has to be seeing these CDs and thinking, "If people aren't buying Willenium, what are we doing wrong?""

Or something along the lines of "Look! So many people pirated Willenium that we can't even sell them!"

Re:This is a good thing

[c0dedude]

They're thinking, "We'll pawn them off on schools to pay our lawsuits." And it's working quite well.

April Fool's?

[Raven42rac]

I had to look at the calendar to make sure it was not April 1. What on earth are schools going to do with Big Pun, and Will Smith cds? Besides use them for coasters in Chemistry class? Even when the RIAA loses, they still win. They are like a cat that always lands on it's feet. So they have to "pay" by clearing out warehouse space and writing off the "losses", ouch.

Re:April Fool's?

[Ignignot]

I had to look at the calendar to make sure it was not April 1.

And I thought I had problems oversleeping! You don't even know what month it is!?

Re:April Fool's?

[kevinvee]

Even better, the artists will get even less from this than before!

I think I'm going to start an Association of America.

Just be glad..

[Jareeedo]

..the kids didn't get a copy of Marthas next album..."Not Quite Spooky Sounds from Cellblock 11."

Re:Just be glad..

[Ateryx]

..the kids didn't get a copy of Marthas next album..."Not Quite Spooky Sounds from Cellblock 11."

I'm quite sure you meant "Spookier Sounds from Cellblock 11." I'm sure hearing that album would scare me away from pr0n for life.

old music

[millahtime]

couldn't they have at leave put out Martha Stewarts newest album "Spooky Scary Sounds for Prison"

Public School

[Mz6]

"The Secretary of State's Office this week set up a CD-swapping listserve for librarians and administrators, said Karen Goettling, with the state library system."

I've got to hand it to them... As much as we like to rip on public schools and all, atleast they were smart enough to set something like that up. Of course, it still doesn't really solve the headache of having to deal with the myriad of copies of each artist. Not to mention the explicit lyrics CDs the schools received that will have to be transfered out. This also offers a chance for the schools to trade CDs with the libraries and so on... creating a "P2P-like" network among the State. I'm also glad that they decided to include some of the older, classic music in there as well. However, that still doesn't make up for the overabundance of CDs that just scream "I didn't sell, just take me, particulary this statement from the article:

"Part of the settlement the recording industry made with states' attorneys general was that the giveaway CDs couldn't be junk, Larson said. Titles had to be on a Billboard chart for at least 26 weeks and had to peak in the top half of the chart."

Considering they have several Billboard charts this is very subjective. I'm guessing that they sent CDs based upon the Billboard chart subjective to their music genre. Because I know that Wilson Pickett, "In the Midnight Hour", Yanni, "In the Mirror", "Chicken Soup for Little Souls", or Martha Stewart's Halloween sounds haven't made it anywhere close to the Billboards TOP charts. Unless we were looking at a very large Top Billboard chart.

Re:Public School

[jacobito]

Because I know that Wilson Pickett, "In the Midnight Hour", Yanni, "In the Mirror", "Chicken Soup for Little Souls", or Martha Stewart's Halloween sounds haven't made it anywhere close to the Billboards TOP charts. Unless we were looking at a very large Top Billboard chart.

"In the Midnight Hour" hit the top of the R&B chart. It reached #26 (that is, the "top half") on the Billboard pop chart in 1965, though I do not know how long it stayed on the chart. It is still in heavy rotation to this day on oldies radio stations, and Wilson Pickett is still beloved by soul and R&B fans to this day. His music isn't junk by any means.

I'm sure your general point is more or less valid (though plenty of artistically and culturally valuable records never charted at all), but it pains me to see Wilson Pickett mentioned in the same breath as Yanni and Martha Stewart.

Re:Public School

[taped2thedesk]

Unless we were looking at a very large Top Billboard chart.

They're from the ever-popular Billboard Top 1E+09 Greatest Hits.

At least you *could* install Windows...

[EggMan2000]

Didn't Microsoft have a similar payout in one of its settlement cases? At least people can use software, nonoby, and I mean nobody can use 300 copies of a crap CD that didn't sell very well to begin with. What a rip-off!

They might as well have sent them 10,000 AOL CDs.

Re:At least you *could* install Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

nonoby, and I mean nobody
Well, you corrected yourself, so I guess I can't enter some kind of spelling flame here.

Re:At least you *could* install Windows...

[DaHat]

They might as well have sent them 10,000 AOL CDs.

Don't forget, someone is already working on that

Re:At least you *could* install Windows...

[rwrife]

Well that's what happens when your school is forced to teach you using Big Pun CDs vs using a book.

Re:At least you *could* install Windows...

[NarrMaster]

AOL Cds make great guitar picks. Just stamp out the shape of the pick, and Viola! A shit load of free guitar picks.

Re:At least you *could* install Windows...

[Alsee]

In related news...
As part of a court settlement for illegal conduct, game manufature Parker Brothers agreed to print up and deliver $875 million dollars in Monopoly money to area schools.

-

Re:At least you *could* install Windows...

[Simonetta]

What Microsoft does is give a hundred PCs to the school district and two copies of Office. They wait until the teachers, kids, and administrators have loaded Office on all the PCs. Then they hit the school district with a huge lawsuit threatening to demand a hundred thousand dollars for every 'pirated' installation of the software. They 'settle' for a single payment of a million dollars or so. The original PCs are all taken as a tax write-off donation.
They've done this to Philadelphia and Portland Oregon that I know of and probably many other places as well.
A truly sleazy and degenerate company.

Re:At least you *could* install Windows...

[Technician]

They've done this to Philadelphia and Portland Oregon that I know of and probably many other places as well.


Update, you missed chapter 2. They requested the audit. The local news media was informed. The cost of the audit and the burden just to do the audit was calculated (not counting any possiblilty of finding any copyright violations) and the public outcry was heard in Redmond and Nationwide. Geeks in force volunteered to upgrade the entire school district so a repeat audit would be impossible as they would become MS free.

This outcome was unexpected by Redmond. There was no way they could permit a bunch of geeks replace the MS cash cow in the school district. If it were sucessful, other school districts may also want to limit their liablity in the same way now that a template was created and the technology proved cost effective and stable (and mostly virus proof)

Needless to say, the audit was called off because it would have cost Redmont way too much future revenue.

An excelent write up of the threat of Open Source being used to fend off the expensive audit can be found here;

http://www.midrangeserver.com/tfh/tfh051903-stor y0 5.html

The kicker was the introduction of a bill that basicly was
"The idea behind the legislation is a simple one. In a time of budgetary crisis, the bill would require state agencies to consider open source alternatives to proprietary products. And while they would not be compelled to choose open source software, agencies would be required to justify proprietary purchases.

"

MS could have used the BSA to win the battle that year, but would have lost big time in the years following as the changes would be more than just a school district responding to the higher proven TCO of propritory software and it's legal costs. It would have been businesses and government shifting away from high TCO software.

Re:At least you *could* install Windows...

[Technician]

A better quote to explain chapter 2 from the article mentioned in my other post;

The software giant, probably through the auspices of the alliance, demanded that the school district perform an audit to account for each and every copy of Microsoft software. Either proof of purchase or compensation for pirated copies was sought. The school district, however, barely had enough money to operate, much less to perform an expensive audit, and the negative publicity finally forced Microsoft to reconsider its demands. But aggressive actions often have unintended consequences. In this case, several programmers from the community approached Barnhart and offered to replace all Microsoft products with Linux and other open source software. Coincidentally, low-cost open source software had already been embraced by several other school districts likewise threatened with audits.

The BSA and MS didn't expect that response. They could have won the audit once, but not twice. They understood they had only one option to keep receiving upgrade fees, and that wasn't by forcing an audit.

they are all spooky and scary!

[Braingoo]

Martha Stuarts Holloween cd is not the only one that is Spooky and Scary!

Raise your hand...

[Anonymous Coward]

... if you're at all surprised by this.

Nobody? That's what I thought :)

Wow...what a bunch of scumbags...

[FatSean]

An who in the gov't decided that shitty music that doesn't sell is an appropriate method of payment?!?!

Disgusted. I'm going to go steal some music off of the internet now.

Re:Wow...what a bunch of scumbags...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well if you and the moderators RTFA you would have noted:

Part of the settlement the recording industry made with states' attorneys general was that the giveaway CDs couldn't be junk, Larson said. Titles had to be on a Billboard chart for at least 26 weeks and had to peak in the top half of the chart.

I don't think the deal should have been made in the first place. However, at least they had foresight in establishing some standard.

Re:Wow...what a bunch of scumbags...

[poot_rootbeer]

An who in the gov't decided that shitty music that doesn't sell is an appropriate method of payment?!?!

Nobody. RTFA.

The discs distributed as part of the settlement had to spend 26 weeks on the Billboard charts, and have peaked in the top half of that list.

So these were discs that DID sell well, but the labels overestimated demand and overmanufactured them.

Re:Wow...what a bunch of scumbags...

[powerlinekid]

The lawyers decided it and advised the plaintiff to accept this great "settlement". I'm also guessing that those lawyers aren't going to get paid in copies of Willenium.

Nothing really surprising here considering that corporations have been doing this for awhile *cough*Microsoft*cough*.

Re:Wow...what a bunch of scumbags...

[cheekyboy]

Giving the schools 10000000 man hours of free lawyer services would have been better :-)

Hell yeah!

[karniv0re]

Spooky Scary Sounds for Halloween is the shit! I blast that on my 15s while sippin' on 40s.

Re:Hell yeah!

[standsolid]

word

Deal with the RIAA

[Sir Homer]

You think the RIAA would give them CDs worth listening to? This is the RIAA we are talking about! I'm surprised they didn't trick WA into accepting blank CDs. Well at least blank CDs would be more useful...

Re:Deal with the RIAA

[iamacat]

Do you think RIAA has CDs worth listening to? Maybe this was the cream of the crop. Seriously, why didn't the settlement let schools and libraries specify which titles they want?

Re:Deal with the RIAA

[cloudmaster]

They would've been blank "music" CDs, though, and the schools would have had to pay a tax based on the assumption that they'd pirate copyrighted audio on those disks. :)

Re:Deal with the RIAA

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd think the RIAA would post this stuff online where they know it'll be given away for free.

Be really honest with yourself:

[burgburgburg]

Can any of us really have enough copies of "Willenium"?

What with deranged strangers bursting into your home and smashing all of the copies they can get their hands on (before trying to induct you into their cult and sell you aluminum siding), there is always the danger that you will be without an actual copy of "Willenium" at a vital moment. I find absolutely nothing wrong with the RIAAs actions in this settlement. I just wish I could share in the windfall. I've personally purchased over 15,000 copies of "Willenium" since it's release. I'd buy 15,000 more when necessary.

Re:Be really honest with yourself:

[OverlordQ]

ROFL How the FUCK did this get modded insightful

Recycling ideas...

[mirko]

See the "creativity corner" at the bottom of this page.
This might keep them busy for a while ;)

One Librarian quoted as saying

[Anonymous Coward]

"The Willeneium is here... and I don't like it."

Not sure

[aixou]

if this is the same thing. But I live in Washington and I got a check earlier this year for about $13 from a class-action suit to compensate for overpriced CDs. I just deposited it in my bank account and went on my way.

Why the RIAA sould just give random CDs instead of credit for free music (how about a deal with Apple? :) is beyond me.

The RIAA

[JustNiz]

..is why God invented handguns.

Re:The RIAA

[lpangelrob2]

...Oh! So CDs are what I was shooting at!

Re:The RIAA

[BigGar']

And invented them hundreds of years before the existance of the RIAA, to "Shake Out the Bugs", before they were really needed.

GOD really is all knowing.

Re:The RIAA

[Anonymous Coward]

...and sniper rifles and shotguns and flamethrowers and plasma rifles and...hmm....I think there's a UT theme hidden in there somewhere. RIAA Assault level anyone?

Re:The RIAA

[Anonymous Coward]

...This is my favorite independent band. What's yours?...

Rick Dicaire.

is there an option?

[kobaque]

can the schools refuse/demand something else rather than the explict lyrics material? Isn't it illegal to sell it to minors? What is a school going to do with it?

In continuing coverage...

[cerebralsugar]

The RIAA will settle a class action lawsuit pending against them, that alledges pricing fixing in the record industry, by dumping employee excrement into existing pig farms.

Martha Stewart's Spooky Scary Sounds

[Anonymous Coward]

"Now listen closely children as I am forced to toss Bertha's salad. Definitely NOT a good thing."

RIAA similar to Microsoft?

[MacGoldstein]

Is it just me, or does this sound scarily familiar to Microsoft's failed attempts to "settle" by giving free copies of Windows to schools? I hope that no more companies are allowed to "atone" for their sins by giving out freebies to further secure their footholds in the marketplace. Not that Will Smith was going to do much for that anyways, but its the principle of the matter.

Re:RIAA similar to Microsoft?

[ianpm]

You might not like this, but if MS did give copies of its software to schools would that not actually be helpful? Assuming the school was to buy copies of the OS then this would save them money. Of course, its underhanded, but then what do you expect, no one likes loosing money thats why "double or quits" was invented.

Re:RIAA similar to Microsoft?

[mackman]

Good point. I bet when SCO gets slammed by the SEC they'll settle by donating "100 million dollars worth of Linux licenses" to the US government.

Re:RIAA similar to Microsoft?

[cinderful]

I think it's more like Microsoft settling with schools by sending them free software

. . . 4000 copies of Microsoft Bob

Re:RIAA similar to Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

I just hope my local crack dealers aren't allowed to settle.

Martha Stewart?

[A_GREER]

Hummm....maybe they could play it in the local jail...

i wonder if they duped...

[mr_tommy]

I wonder if they had duplicates of the same CD there.... like... this story!

music from the Far Side

[spectasaurus]

Shouldn't we have expected something like this with Gary Larson handling the prosecution?

Or maybe something with singing cows or singing cavemen?

Re:music from the Far Side

[Anonymous Coward]

I was starting to think that I was the only one to pick up on that name!

CAR!

BOSS!

Duplicate story

[malfunct]

This is pretty much a duplicate of the story last week, except in the story last week the RIAA had an excuse. They said that thier automatic allocation program had a bug and that they were fixing the issue. They also said there would be some sort of make good/exchange program in the works to help fix the problem.

It still might be a tax write off and a way to get rid of dead inventory, but they have an excuse. *smile*

Re:Duplicate story

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one concur, I believe they had a "bug" with their allocation program as well. A note to the RIAA, simply replace the following program invocation:

settleLawsuit --crappyCDPercentage-ridiculous

with:
settleLawsuit --crappyCDPercentage-extremelyhigh

And you'll be back in business!

They could have gone with plan B...

[Ackmo]

...which was to just pay cash. But in pennies.

Re:They could have gone with plan B...

[Anonymous Coward]

In high school, the track team had a banquet at the end of the season. Since our team didn't have much of a budget, we had to pay for it ourselves. The coach figured out the cost per person, and decided it would cost us $15.02 each.

Instead of just paying the $.02 for each of the 50 team members, he made up pay it. So of course, I went to the bank, and got a sack full of 1502 pennies and gave it to him. We all thought it was pretty funny, but he was pissed.

Re:They could have gone with plan B...

[lildogie]

> They could have gone with plan B
> which was to just pay cash. But in pennies.

Your're confusing settlements with royalties.

If it exists it can be found..

[Anonymous Coward]

.. you can even buy a town.

And do it Eeeeeeeeeeeebay!

Easy Answer!

[midifarm]

EBay!!!

Peace

Re:Easy Answer!

[geordi177]

By the time Ebay and Paypal take their shares of the profits, and the schools pay someone to go ship all the CDs off to the winners, the schools won't be left with much.

Besides, how much could 1,500 Willenium cd's each go for? $0.50 a piece?

Re:Easy Answer!

[Anonymous Coward]

By releasing so many "Willenium" CDs into an already saturated market all you will do is further drive down their value. Please remember in United States the smallest demonination of currency that we have is the penny, which is (a much-to-large) one hundredth of our famous dollar.

Re:Easy Answer!

[KUHurdler]

Yes, but it IS ebay, so don't forget the $20 shipping price to make up for the loss.

Plenty of great ideas

[SkyWalk423]

...folks aren't quite sure what to do with the odd collection...

What do you mean?? This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for schoolkids to conduct important research on compact disc aerodynamics and durability! Take them up to the roof and see how far they'll fly. See what the old magnifying-glass-in-the-sun trick does to them. Or you could lay them all down data-side up on a grass hill, turn on the hose and make a kickass Slip N' Slide!

Re:Plenty of great ideas

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could do a physics lesson and see how much force is required to stick a CD into the side of the head of an RIAA member.

Re:Plenty of great ideas

[k4_pacific]

Ever put a CD in the Microwave?

Dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

They should have insisted on cold hard cash instead.

I fought the law and the law won

[rfernand79]

Well, this brings a new meaning to "I fought the law and the law won:. Honestly, who sues for crap?

What to do?

[PudKaplan]

What are they going to do with these CD's? The answer is obvious! Rip 'em and put 'em on KaZaA!!

Re:What to do?

[gotem]

why? nobody will waste his bandwidth downloading that

Re:What to do?

[JohnFromCanada]

There are enough junk files on KaZaA as it is, let's not add to the problem.

Re:What to do?

[Anonymous Coward]

I knew that the RIAA planned to flood P2P networks with tons of bogus files, none of which contained actual music.

But to induce children to flood them with thousands of copies of Willenium? That's just evil!

Oops RIAA did it again...

[Anonymous Coward]

...got caught in a game. Ooh baby baby. I'm not that innocent.

Re:Oops RIAA did it again...

[Anonymous Coward]

...not that funny either...

REminds me of a milk commercial...

[CaptainPinko]

got duped?

Yes, it looks like they got screwed and they RIAA is greatful to have removed some unwanted nventory.

Why do the RIAA get to choose the value?

[bennomatic]

You'd think if these CDs were unsold inventory, the value of them is what consumers were willing to pay: $0.00. Or at most what they are going for on the used CD market. Or even fairer, somewhere between production costs and the used price.

The point is, just because the RIAA says these CDs are worth $17.00 doesn't mean they can be used as currency. I mean, isn't that sort of artificial valuation what got them in trouble in the first place?

I've decided that one pound of my crap is worth a couple of thousand dollars. When next month rolls around, I think I'll give a pile to my landlady and tell her to keep the change.

Re:Why do the RIAA get to choose the value?

[eric2hill]

If I had mod points, you would get them.

You're EXACTLY right here. All of the lawsuits being thrown around by the RIAA are predicated on the fact that they would have made a sale in the full amount of the CD (i.e. not on clearance at Wal-Mart) if the swapper hadn't downloaded the songs. Music does NOT equal legal tender, especially since I'm only paying for the right to listen to the song, not the right to own the CD.

Re:Why do the RIAA get to choose the value?

[morcheeba]

I've decided that one pound of my crap is worth a couple of thousand dollars.

Don't sell yourself short!! A guy got $52,000 for 30 grams of his crap - about the price of gold. Don't settle for anything less than $28,000.

Re:Why do the RIAA get to choose the value?

[dasmegabyte]

The retail value of a product is the highest anybody's actually paid for it in a retail market.

If they retailed these CDs at $17, and even one person bought them at full price (which, as a former member of Columbia House, I have), they can say the value is $17 even if everybody else paid $8 or less. This is pretty fair...you don't want the courts forcing YOU to use some liquidation price...and I'm sure the judge in the case knew they were going to inflate the price of the merchandise, and inflated the price of the settlement accodingly.

Re:Why do the RIAA get to choose the value?

[magefile]

$52,000? Really? Any relation to the AOL email guy who got $52,000?

Re:Why do the RIAA get to choose the value?

[shadowcabbit]

If they retailed these CDs at $17, and even one person bought them at full price (which, as a former member of Columbia House, I have), they can say the value is $17 even if everybody else paid $8 or less. This is pretty fair...you don't want the courts forcing YOU to use some liquidation price...and I'm sure the judge in the case knew they were going to inflate the price of the merchandise, and inflated the price of the settlement accodingly.

(B.S. Alert: I am not an economist, but most of what I'm going to say will seem like common sense to me-- disagree if you wish.)

Inflation seems to be the key issue here. The price of $17 is predicated on the CD's perceived value in 1999. It's true that the retail value of a product is the highest going price, but you must account for readjustment of value of the product as time goes on; otherwise a rookie signed Babe Ruth card could be said to be worth nothing more than the nickel it cost with the piece of gum way back when. Of course, it could also be said to be worth zillions of dollars. It all depends on the buyer.

We have to take a look at the "buyer"'s perceived value of these CDs. In this case, it's the school system. The school system has no reasonable use for a CD full of explicit lyrics (especially if such a CD, in the hands of a student, could be confiscated as being in violation of the school's code of conduct). Thus, the Big Pun CDs are worth exactly $0 to the school, and the RIAA has basically thrown them away. The RIAA can claim that they have gotten rid of x amount of Big Pun CDs at $17 but that does not mean that the school has received x*$17 worth of value in goods. In a nutshell, the real problem here is that there is a disparity in the perception of the value of the goods being offered between the plaintiff and the defendant.

Of course, you COULD get totally dishonest here, too. Say I sue the RIAA and, by some miracle, win. I demand in settlement $170,000. The RIAA sends me 10,000 80's CDs. It just so happens that I am a big fan of the 80's; but I don't want the RIAA to think that they've given me stuff I actually want, and declare the value of the CDs to be only $85,000 (1/2). The courts in this case would have no choice but to force the RIAA to either pony up $85,000 or dump another "$85,000" worth of CDs on me, which I can then say are totally worthless; repeat ad infinitum.

The only solution is to force ALL legal settlements to be paid in cash only. Ideally this should be a federal mandate, to avoid some states from allowing losers to weasel out of it. "Class action in all 50 states? Well, Alabama doesn't have cash-settlement legislation. Send 200,000 Cam'ron albums to East Retard, AL." (note: IANAL, either, so I don't know how that would work for sure)

Re:Why do the RIAA get to choose the value?

[focitrixilous P]

I've decided that one pound of my crap is worth a couple of thousand dollars. When next month rolls around, I think I'll give a pile to my landlady and tell her to keep the change.
Hey, if it's good enough for the BOFH to sell, it's good enough for me!

BOFH: Protecting bodily waste in the public domain

BOFH: Enforcing the excremental IP

When exactly ...

[burgburgburg]

isn't it the solution? To any of lifes many problems?

Oops. I hope my parole officer doesn't read this post.

Re:When exactly ...

[wrf3]

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
-- Robert Frost

Re:When exactly ...

[Bloomy]

It's not the solution when alcohol is available. Because that's "the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems."

Re:When exactly ...

[P-Frank]

Was Robert Frost cremated?

Re:When exactly ...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, that's alcohol.

"To alcohol. The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" --Homer Simpson--

Re:When exactly ...

[Dirtside]

To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
-- Robert Frost

Well of course Robert Frost would think that way.

Re:When exactly ...

[vDave420]

Robert Frost is such a great poet.

My personal favorite, in fact.

My favorite poem by him is Nothing Gold Can Stay.

The following are also great poems by him, although choosing a subset is like picking between gorgeous swiss blonde triplets:
Stopping by the woods on a snowy evening
The road less traveled
Mending Wall

Yeah, they are all great. What a talented man! Hope you enjoy them.

-dave-

That's so awful what they did!

[Tokerat]

...I was gonna go buy that Big Pun CD!

Really?

[RidiculousPie]

rhythm-and-blues artist Samantha Mumba

Here was i thinking she was a rhythm-and-bass artist.

I thought that people like the Blues Brothers were rhythm and blues artists. Well I guess the RIAA knows it's music.

(Yes I do realise that the RIAA did not write this article)

Spooky Scary Sounds is great!

[crow]

The Spooky Scary Sounds CD is awesome. Every Halloween, we set it up on a boom box in the bushes next to our front door on repeat. It's perfect for setting the mood along with our jack-o-lanterns.

Say what you want about her investing and cover up, but she did put out some great products.

Re:Spooky Scary Sounds is great!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to scare children, you should definitely buy this album. No one will even dare approach your house!

I think the kids should burn

[psyberjedi]

as many copies of those cds as possible and sell them for a dollar each. Turn 115,000 cds into thousands and maybe even millions of real US $$$ for the school district. Then put up a monument to RIAA for assisting in the birth of WA-School E. Wabbit Music Store.

I am not offended by profane lyrics, but why give hundreds of copies of cds rather than a financial donation they could actually put toward... um, MUSIC!!!!

I know, my apologies for using logic and expecting some reasonability and rationality from an organization worried about from where Big Pun's next meal is coming, and whether Justin Timberlake 's entourage is properly pimpin'.

Thanks RIAA for reestablishing my distaste for the corporate world.

Re:I think the kids should burn

[YetAnotherName]

And I hope most people will read your entire comment instead of just the subject line!

What do you expect?

[crow]

So if you had to give someone $500 worth of your stuff, wouldn't you pick a bunch of stuff you didn't want to begin with? (Well, assuming you don't care about the recipient.)

Re:What do you expect?

[DaHat]

Well, assuming you don't care about the recipient

if I had to give anyone anything... I can promise you that I am not going to like them very much.

Wow, these are even better terms...

[Anonymous Coward]

...than that "free confession" settlement the Catholic Church offered all those abused kids.

Won't somone make them stop!

[yoshi_mon]

While I didn't RTFA in true /. style I have got to guess that the RIAA valued each one of these CD's at full markup price rather than what they actually cost to make.

So in addition to the fact that they get to clean out their warehouses to make room for new crap they are distorting the economics by valueing each of these CDs higher than what anyone would have paid for them.

In reality these things would have sat around until it became cheaper to sell them off for next to nothing. Instead they are getting full value, granted for a lost court case, for something that never had that much value to begin with. They win again...

Re:Won't somone make them stop!

[Anonymous Coward]

And on top of that, as several others have mentioned, they get to write of the artificially high price on their tax reports.

Re:Won't somone make them stop!

[dasmegabyte]

And how do you propose to assess the cost to make an album?

The cost to press a CD, and print the manual is marginal...you can usually have it done for about $1 or so.

But before you can press the CD or print anything, you need to have a master. It costs money to have a master CD made up, as well as to make a master file for the manual.

And before that, you need to have the songs to put on the master. Those need to be produced. The artwork needs to be created for the manual, the graphics laid out.

And before you can produce the songs, you need to record them! You need to play them while recording them, which takes instruments. You need somebody to play the instruments, which takes musicians. You need somebody to write the songs. Finding musicians and song writers takes talent reps, agents, A&R men. And you better copyright those songs, publish the music, pay for promotion, distribution, warehousing, second printings, etc.

They used the full market price -- the highest price anybody really paid for the record -- because that's the only fair way to do it. It's impossible to wade through what a CD actually costs to make. And furthermore, it's unfair to use what people paid, because it fluctuates so dramatically -- I bought Nirvana's "Nevermind" for $15 when it came out, $12 years later when the first copy was stolen, and $18 a few weeks ago when that one went tits-up. What's the CD worth? What's it cost? Do you average the three together, take the median, do you subtract the artists' advance or the cost of gold records?

If it makes you feel any better, I'm sure the judge who awarded the damages knew the CD price they'd use in liquidation would be "artificually" inflated, and inflated the award accordingly. It's all bullshit numbers. I only hope the bullshit was enough to curb future price fixing.

Great.

[Anonymous Coward]

Now our public schools, once the halls of education, have become giant dumpsters for the RIAA.

Who needs to download an mp3 when you can just dig through the trash of your local public library?

I love how the settlement was basically 1.5m worth of merchandise valued at MSRP instead of cost. God forbid the multi-billion dollar business invest 1.5 million dollars into public education instead of cutting their legal department another check to harass people.

Artist royalties?

[crow]

So if the RIAA is giving away CDs instead of a cash payment, shouldn't the artists receive the royalties on those CDs as if they were sold at the stated value?

Of course, if they're excess inventory, the point is probably moot as the royalties wouldn't have covered the recording and promotional expenses yet, so it's not real money yet.

Re:Artist royalties?

[curator_thew]

"Of course, if they're excess inventory"

You've probably come across a nice technicality: the recording contracts with the artists probably state that certain forms of offloading unsold inventory don't result in royalties, and so this "dumping" is a nice break for them: not only do they avoid paying hard cash, but they avoid paying royalties (which they may have been liable for it they dumped off the stock at $1/each), and avoid wastage (i.e. if they dumped the stock into an incinerator for no gain, and an overall loss [taking into account costs of production]).

Very saavy move by the RIAA, which only goes to show how commercially slick and smart they are in business terms, as opposed to the schools who were have been completely shafted because they probably assumed they were going to get some useful music out of the deal.

Re:Artist royalties?

[mirio]

The RIAA is an industry trade group...it is not a record label. It doesn't have contracts with artists. I think you're referring to it's member companies.

Re:Artist royalties?

[curator_thew]

I think I am, but this is slashdot, and both posters and readers are away that we play a little loose with the definitions at time.

Boy, I hope ...

[burgburgburg]

Robert Frost's parole officer doesn't read that.

Sell the CDs.

[darkmeridian]

No, that is not exactly what RIAA had in mind. The school districts do not *have* to expose children to these CDs. The RIAA intended no such thing; they were just grudgingly complying with a court settlement. What use could the district have for those CDs? Well, they could sell them on eBay and then use the profits for books, couldn't they?

Re:Sell the CDs.

[mini me]

If the RIAA can't sell those CDs, how do you expect anyone else to? Just look at the titles. Trust me, they won't be going anywhere.

Re:Sell the CDs.

[Izago909]

Yes, their marketing machine is doing more than enough to get this crap to the kids. Putting it in their hands is just a formality.

Re:Sell the CDs.

[bahwi]

Yup. They sell $143M worth of CDs(I'm sure at full retail price too!) for about $5M, maybe....

And who learns the lesson? The state hopefully, don't trust the RIAA. But I agree, just sell the damn things.

Although, considering the RIAA couldn't sell them, it could be difficult, but I'm sure at pennies a CD they could be sold pretty easily.

Re:Sell the CDs.

[Anonymous Coward]

More importantly are they in the shrink wrap? If they are unopened then shouldn't they be able to return them for cash value? Even if these were in the top ten right now the schools would not be able to receive the ($1.5M/115241= ) $13/ea. value. Also the quote from the article:

"There were several that were clearly marked, 'For Promotional Use Only,' " she said. Tacoma Public Library received dozens of CDs that were notched, indicating that they were not resalable.

Re:Sell the CDs.

[aiabx]

They might raise enough money to buy a couple of sticks of chalk selling off all those Martha Stewart Scary Sounds CDs.
-aiabx

Re:Sell the CDs.

[liquidsin]

Sure thing. How about the next time you owe someone twenty bucks, just give them an Oreo. Then tell them that it's not your fault they can't sell the Oreo for twenty bucks. I don't understand how this can be considered justice that they can pay for their crimes in a currency that they get to set the worth of. Chances are if they still have thousands of cds from 1991, nobody's gonna buy them for $17, so why does the RIAA get to say that that's what they're worth AND get a tax write-off for $17 for each of those discs? Also, there's a real good chance that the artists already got fucked for manufacturing costs on the thousands of cds sitting in a warehouse, but I bet they don't get royalties for this.

Re:Sell the CDs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't read the article, did'ja?

It pointed out that a number of CDs were 'notched' (ie: returns marked so they couldn't be returned) as well as promotional CDs clearly marked 'not for resale'.

It's clear that the RIAA was just getting rid of junk, that wouldn't move, and not complying with the letter, to say nothing of the spirit, of the agreement.

Re:Sell the CDs.

[nizo]

The schools should charge the RIAA "storage fees" until they come pick up these boxes of useless CDs. I am thinking something along the lines of $100/per day/per box. If these CDs are worth what the RIAA says they are, why can't they sell them and pay the schools the money?

Re:Sell the CDs.

[Blondie-Wan]

I have a hunch it'd be more accurate to say it's certain individual RIAA member labels doing this. The article does say there's some good stuff in appropriate quantities in the selection as well. I'm guessing the various labels affected by the settlement were each asked to contribute something, and some of them submitted actual desirable material, while others looked at it as a convenient means to dump whatever they had lying around while fulfilling their legal obligation.

Scary Sounds

[eggfellow]

from the article:

Included in the shipment: 84 copies of an album by rhythm-and-blues artist Samantha Mumba, 69 by Lenny Kravitz and 48 copies of "Scary Sounds for Halloween" from Martha Stewart.

from Martha Stewart's "Scary Sounds for Halloween" CD, track 1:

"Ms. Stewart, SEC on line 1..."

745 of 115,214

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice perspective people. Good Job.

Sooo.....

[MinusBlindfold]

What does Will Smith think about all of this?

Did anyone

[BCW2]

expect them to dump anything that actually sells? Of course 90% of what comes out each year is a waste of plastic and electricity, Oh wow, I discovered the reason sales are down! Brain at work.

Burn, baby, burn!

[Rocketboy]

They ought to use the shiny sides of the CDs to build giant parabolic mirrors and use them to burn the RIAA's headquarters down. Then start on the executives' homes and keep it up until someone cries "Uncle!".

Building parabolic mirrors is educational. So is using them to exterminate vermin.

Honestly, who didn't see this coming?

Rb

Uhh.

[beckerbuns]

Should I be ashamed to admit that I own a few of those CDs?

Re:Uhh.

[MinusBlindfold]

Only if any of them are Spooky Scary Sounds for Halloween!

Just like Nintendo, just like America

[UnrefinedLayman]

This is just like the Nintendo case a long time ago. Nintendo was puttin' the squeeze on the little guy, in a blatantly illegal manner, and the remedy was that they were forced to provide coupons for their own products to the consumers.

See, their punishment was that they received more sales. Which is kind of what has happened here. The RIAA's punishment is to clear out old inventories as a part of a tax writeoff. The old "You've been bad, here's a dumptruck full of money" punishment.

That's the American way. Of course, if I stiff someone out of thousands of dollars (or even steal one dollar from thousands of people), it's off to ol' pound-you-in-the-ass prison for me. Maybe I just need to wear a tie, smile, and not pay taxes while I do it.

Re:Just like Nintendo, just like America

[Zed2K]

Except the RIAA was told by the courts that it couldn't just dump crap onto the schools.

What a rip off!

[theJerk242]

The RIAA should have drawn big middle fingers on those CDs as well, if they were going to give the state of WA a white elephant (of CDs).

Did I miss something here???

[rwrife]

I don't think I fully understand the point of the settlement.....didn't WA accuse the RIAA of selling music at really high prices?? First off why would the RIAA settle this lawsuit, I think they were in the right on this one....if I want to make a music CD and sell it for $100,000,000 a copy and you're dumb enough to buy it, that's your problem, not mine! It really pisses me off when consumers claimed they were ripped off because the prices were too high (eg Microsoft Windows lawsuits)....nobody, and I mean nobody, is forcing you to buy anything and there is absolutely no need to buy those products, most things are either for entertainment or to increase your productivity and if you want to have fun and be lazy then you're going to have to pay for it. So if you don't like the price of something and want to not only send a message to the company selling the item, but the whole industry, then don't buy those types of products....that'll force the company(s) to lower their prices. And what WA attorney would even say "give me a warehouse full of old CDs and we'll call it even"...how does that even remotely benefit anybody, especially the consumers that were supposedly ripped off?!?!?!

Re:Did I miss something here???

[MacWiz]

"First off why would the RIAA settle this lawsuit, I think they were in the right"

It was an antitrust case brought by the FTC, wherein the record labels were found to have collaborated to set minimum advertised prices. Among the evidencve were instuctional memoranda sent to retailers.

The RIAA settled because it avoided having an actual antitrust trial, which could result in the loss of their power to lobby and unduly influence the government, not to mention the break-up of some major labels entirely.

A Martha Stewart Halloween?

[HarveyBirdman]

Actually, I'd like to hear that.

"Remember, moms, after you've returned from the English countryside with your hand picked wild pumpkins, only use platnium carving knives (available online from buymarthascrap.com) for maximum effect. Now, of course you're thriving hives out behind the pool house have led to a bumper crop of natural beeswax candles this year, so..."

There was a rumor that Stewart cut an album with Snoop Dogg or Dogg Pound or Mighty Dogg or one of those Dogg people. It's a concept album where Whatever Dogg plays Satan and Stewart is his little demoness bitch. It's called "Fook Dat Beyatch Upp!" and it's sung entirely in Aramaic with instrumental arrangements by Yani.

Maybe that one is in the collection. Or maybe it's something that floating into my brain last week when I hit my head.

one word : FRAUD

[swschrad]

and three more, CONTEMPT OF COURT. RIAA officials should be jailed for this bullshit until they come up with educationally significant materials, like the full catalog of classic recordings. this is like being required to post a deposit at the clerk of court's office and doing so by taking their pants down.

Re:one word : FRAUD

[strike2867]

It's like a stripper paying for an indecency ticket with a lap dance.

Re:one word : FRAUD

[16K Ram Pack]

The schools could just contact Naxos who would probably offer them a very good, non-RIAA deal on classical music.

Re:one word : FRAUD

[yourmom16]

No in your example she's paying something that someone would want, here the RIAA is paying in stuff that nobody wanted.

God, that's funny.

[Mongoose Disciple]

I wish I could mod this thing to 6. Probably the funniest thing I've ever read on Slashdot.

Re:God, that's funny.

[Alzheimers]

Why don't you just make FIVE louder and make FIVE be the top number and make that a little louder?

Re:God, that's funny.

[Lancer]

Why don't you just make FIVE louder and make FIVE be the top number and make that a little louder?

<pause>

But 6 is more than 5, see...

Use them in science class

[amelagar]

They can use them in science class, for example to build a CD Spectroscope.

Damn

[Spansule]

All of those CD's are already in my collection. :(

At least now we know...

[u-235-sentinel]

We know why the RIAA has been so ready to sue people for not purchasing their product. With crap like this who would want it?

What about the other 99.9% of the settlement?

[kevlar]

What about the other 99.9% of the settlement?

What about the remaining 109,000 CD's?!?!

Better off with blanks

[drgonjo]

Despite the clear and overwhelming artistic content of Willenium I contest the schools would have been better served with 100,000 blank CDs. Then educators could scour the P2Ps for music with actual educational value and burn them. This is the auditory equivalent of donating your stick pre-internet stack of Hustlers to the local kindergarten.

Re:Better off with blanks

[drgonjo]

Meant to say sticky pre-internet stack of Hustlers... damned inabililty to typde properly.

Some people say the RIAA is soft

[foidulus]

yeah, like Microsoft!
At least children will now be able to understand my reference :P

Price fixing rules

[liquidsin]

The next time I get a speeding ticket, I'm paying for it with the jelly beans I've found hiding under the couch cushions, which I have valued at $5.71 USD each. Since it's now legal to pay for stuff with whatever useless crap you have on hand AND to arbitrarily set the price to any random number you pick, I can only see the economy going up from here on out.

Compare to Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

What if Microsoft would have been allowed to pay off its anti-trust with millions of copies of MS Bob?

What kind of an idiot agreed to this?

Rubbish for threats

[Anonymous Coward]

One arm of RIAA threatens the public, while the other "settles" by offering dredgings and tailings to libraries. RIAA should be stopped. Make that MUST be stopped. Permanently. Write your representative and senator TODAY.

Precedent

[IGnatius T Foobar]

This should be viewed as a precedent. The next time RIAA sues file-swappers, they should be paid in any old junk those folks happen to have around. Dead car on blocks? Value: $10,000. Couple of old 486's lying around? Value: $2,000 each. Spoiled potato salad in the back of the fridge? You get the idea...

Re:Precedent

[Anonymous Coward]

If I ever get sued I'll pay them back in MP3s. Apparently my collection is worth billions.

Re:Precedent

[Lemmeoutada Collecti]

Seriously scratched copies of RIAA cd's that your kids got a hold of: $150,000 each, unless the jewell case is also missing, in which case $300,000. After all, they are one of a kind collector's items now, a modern art piece.

Also, AOL CD's are valued at $100,000 each.

I just realized, in this new economy, I am a billionare!!!

Re:Precedent

[greenegg77]

I don't know about the potato salad thing. Last time I tried to take it out of the fridge, it kicked my ass, sued me for discrimination and negligence, and made me give it a couple of juicy tomatoes. Now it makes me pay protection on the milk. Man, I hate that potato salad.

If my friends ever get an RIAA suit...

[Dave21212]

If my friends ever get an RIAA suit I'll just suggest they settle, then pay in "Dave Recites Computer Code" CDs valued at $1000 each. That's 150 per violation at the full price, or only 2 if they drop it down.

Other potential uses

[symbolic]

I'd hook all the CD's up with the district's physics department, and investigate the effects of using the CD's in something like a home-built rail gun. It would be quite a site to see a CD shatter at high velocity, and there's plenty of stock there to use for testing.

Re:Other potential uses

[pclminion]

It would be quite a site to see a CD shatter at high velocity

No need to bother yourself. This guy has already done it, and has videos of the results.

His page is full of all kinds of very cool, dangerous experiments.

Re:Other potential uses

[symbolic]

Nice link. But like my own high school chemistry class, it's pretty dull if you can't get your hands dirty once in a while. :)

Re:Other potential uses

[Anonymous Coward]

I think myth busters did it better, 5000 rpm rouer motor+speed control=massive destruction.

Would the RIAA accept junk for their settlements?

[therblig]

So, if I were sued by the RIAA, could I give them $3000 worth of "merchandise" as payment instead of giving that stuff to Goodwill? For starters, I think my old underwear is worth $1 a pair.

more about the naive and stupid schools

[curator_thew]

By the sounds of it, this is more about the commercial niaviety and stupidity of the school, rather than the admittedly PR-bad practice by the RIAA. They should have chosen a different form of settlement, or if they did choose music, they should have constrained the settlement to certain types or choices of music relevant to their children.

The RIAA doesn't win any points over this, but equally, the schools should know better: if they're letting themselves get shafted by the RIAA, who knows how else they are getting shafted in all manner of commercial contracts that involve real money (i.e. the money that comes from your children's fees or tax income or elsewise).

If I were living in these school districts and states, I'd be questioning the schools quite closely - finding out how they got suckered out of what could have been a useful cash payout.

Happened here in South Carolina

[JLSigman]

The public library system got a bunch of CDs dumped on them, but the district attorney said that they're not allowed to put out the ones by Eminem or other profane artists. So not even adults could borrow them. God forbid we be allowed to decide for ourselves... (and down here in the South, they decide that God does forbid quite a bit of free-thinking)

Re:Happened here in South Carolina

[Izago909]

It's odd what people call profane. One of Frank Zappa's albums had the explicit lyrices label on it despite the fact the entire thing was instrumental. Our local mayor shut down a thriving electronic music scene because it "corroupted the youth and promoted drug use" (namely his daughter). As I type this there is a local Phish concert underway that has many times the drugs on premise as any EM show, but this one has the city's seal of approval, because traditional music with guitars must be much more safe.

Does this mean...

[goodhell]

I'm an environmental engineer. I work with sludge from wastewater treatment plants.

An outstanding joke is that 'someone elses shit is our gold'.

Does this mean that if I ever get sued for something, hell anything, that I can compensate them by dumping a pile of shit on their door?

Not the RIAA. A group of labels != the RIAA

[jschottm]

The lawsuit in question involved suing a number of specific labels, as well as a few retailers. Scroll down for a list of defendants If you want to get riled up about this, do so by all means, but target the correct group. You don't like it when the RIAA accuses all file-swappers of being criminals, so make yourselves look better than them by not doing the same thing.

Despite the /. groupthink, not everything you don't like in the recording industry comes from the RIAA.

ObQuote

[southpolesammy]

From Officespace

What am I going to do with 40 subscriptions to Vibe?

How to make money

[a1englishman]

How to make money from the stash of CDs:

1) Sell them on eBay
2) Sell them door to door
3) Stack them up in the crafts class, and make them into clocks. Sell them on eBay.
4) Use them in experimants to remove epoxy coating, and recycle the aluminum. Once successful, sell them idea.

Mod Funny doesn't help Karma

[Anonymous Coward]

Due to changes in the moderating system, Funny doesn't help Karma. But modding a funny comment as Insightful is a way of skirting the issue and rewarding those that amuse.

Re:Mod Funny doesn't help Karma

[OverlordQ]

I guess that means people should actually have something intelligent to add to the conversation then.

(Yes I know this comment isn't that intelligent)

The RIAA..

[Anonymous Coward]

once again proves that they are the most organized bunch of unethical criminals this country has ever seen. (And that is really saying something)

Oh my god!

[mekkab]

Will?@!?@ Is that you?!

I can't believe it! The Fresh Prince reads slashdot!

Smile!

[mfh]

> How many CDs was that again?
Oh maybe we have finally found a way to get rid of the RIAA nazis! Thinking positively, that would be 6 years per CD, plus $500,000 each. That would be perfect!

Solar Furnace

[14erCleaner]

You know, it should be possible to make a really powerful solar furnace from a large collection of junk CDs (arrange them in a parabolic shape, point at the sun, place object to be heated at the focus).

You could then use it to dispose of other useless leftovers, like old computers, mystery meat from the cafeteria, etc. Not that this is something schools should be encouraging, but it's summer vacation and kids need something to do. :)

Maybe I can get my kids to donate their collection of old AOL CDs to an experiment...

*grumbles*

[DataDragon]

"Let them eat cake." You know, its one thing to lose a lawsuit, its another thing to say you'll make up for it by helping out the public interest that are normally have hard times finding appropriate funds during recessions or have to consider the logistics of their operation sometimes before inventory, or attaining their desired goals of education. This act could have been a reasonable one, there are a tremendous number of very enlightening recordings such as historical e-books, instructional materials, etc. that would have done well to improve the RIAA's claim recipients (whom, I might add, weren't the lawyers settings the case.) The "poor recording artists" that RIAA claims to protect the interest of who could have benefitted from this are countless. Instead, they've used the educational system as a junkyard, snubbed their noses at the recording artists whom the value of their contribution could have been recognized and appreciated. And because they are being used as a junkyard, the task of sorting through all these inappropriate CDs and disposing of them are left in the hands of people who have enough troubles already. Its like giving beggars video game tokens or something, and they'll probably be snapped at by the RIAA for being ingrates.

It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[Kurt Gray]

Quote the article "Part of the settlement the recording industry made with states' attorneys general was that the giveaway CDs couldn't be junk, Larson said. Titles had to be on a Billboard chart for at least 26 weeks and had to peak in the top half of the chart."

I don't know about the rest of you but I've always regarded the Billboard chart as the height of quality control. I personally was skeptical about such musical masterworks as "Rock Me Amadeus" and the timeless classic "Macarena" until I saw their prominent standings on the Billboard chart. My only hope is that the RIAA will be forced to also release the gold master special edition box sets of Vanilla Ice's "Cool As Ice" which can only be truly appreciated in 22 channel surround sound.

Re:It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[Ralph Wiggam]

In 22 channel surround you might be able to hear some way that Ice Ice Baby's beat is different from Under Pressure's. That video clip of Vanilla Ice explaining how his song is nothing like Under Pressure is one of the funniest things MTV has ever shown. For those of you who havn't seen it, Vanilla Ice says "Their version goes like this...ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding...and my version goes like this...ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding". I've probably seen that clip a dozen times and I have yet to tell any difference between his two renditions.

-B

Re:It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[Jtheletter]

"the gold master special edition box sets of Vanilla Ice's "Cool As Ice" which can only be truly appreciated in 22 channel surround sound.

Aha, that must be why I have failed to appreciate it every time I've heard it.

Re:It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[pwynne]

That is some funny shit.

IIRC, Ice's comparison is this:
Queen -- ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-dinga

VI -- ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding ding ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-dinga

i.e. he throws a tiny little beat in there between the two sets of ding-dings.

Still, no matter how he tries to spin it, he's full of shit.

Re:It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[SlamMan]

Ah, but you see, his was ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding-tish. Its the hi hat sound at the end that makes it a totally different work, and not derivative at all, he says.

I've seen the Behind the Music, too. Funny stuff.

Re:It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[Anonymous Coward]

STill no matter how anyone spins it, it's just a hi E and a low E. Unless the rythym is what they copyrighted, which is also painfully obvious. I love Queen, but they don't own that riff.

Re:It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[Anonymous Coward]

Can I just state for the record that you're both morons. It was a David Bowie song.

Re:It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it was a collaboration.

Re:It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[Naffer]

Somewhere on MTV's website they have a realonevideo of the actual clip. I was only able to find an mp3 of the interview and have mirrored it here: Be kind to my webspace

Re:It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[Ralph Wiggam]

David Bowie did most of the vocals, but it was a collaboration with Queen.

-B

Re:It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[tr0p]

Its not the same. Its there but its not the same LOL

Re:It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Their version goes like this...ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding...and my version goes like this...ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding". I've probably seen that clip a dozen times and I have yet to tell any difference between his two renditions.

I just listened to the clip once and the difference was plain as day. His first statement was

ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding,
ding-ding-ding- dinga-ding-ding

while his second statement was

ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding tsh,
ding-ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding

There was an extra tsh (high hat), and an extra ding. But I guess it's fashionable to laugh at Vanilla Ice, so let's all forget about what he really said and instead say HAHA ROTFL HE'S SO STOOPID!!!!111.

Re:It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[pneuma_66]

How dare you insult Falco, and compare 'Rock Me Amadeus' to the 'Macarena'. Have you actually listened to Falco??

Unlike the Macarena people, Falco has made a lot of albums, and they are actually good. Maybe you should have compared the Macarena to something like The Power Station's 'Some Like it Hot'.

</end 80s fan>

Re:It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[Dominic_Mazzoni]

In 22 channel surround you might be able to hear some way that Ice Ice Baby's beat is different from Under Pressure's. That video clip of Vanilla Ice explaining how his song is nothing like Under Pressure is one of the funniest things MTV has ever shown. For those of you who havn't seen it, Vanilla Ice says "Their version goes like this...ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding...and my version goes like this...ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding". I've probably seen that clip a dozen times and I have yet to tell any difference between his two renditions.

I've seen that clip. It was hilarious, but there was a difference, that only shows up when you repeat the phrase twice, like this:

Their version: ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding, ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding

My version: ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding, *ding* ding-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding

The added "ding" comes just before the "ding" on the first beat of each measure (on the "and" of 4, for any musicians out there!).

Re:It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard!

[mZam]

Ok, talk all the smack you want about Vanilla ice, and the macarena.. but u DO NOT TALK SMACK ABOUT FALCO!

an experiment

[freddyfred89]

Sam Barros of PowerLabs has some tentative results regarding the point at which CDs explode due to excessive rotational velocity.

Why not bring those CDs down to the wood shop and gather additional observations on the ability of CDs to handle speed? Its surely more amusing than building a bread box. And, with 115,241 observations, I'm pretty sure the central limit theorem will give you a more reliable sample estimate of the true failure point.

I wonder if your shop teach has the cojones ...

Let's tie some buttered toast to their backs.

[NarrMaster]

They are like a cat that always lands on it's feet.

That way, they will not land on their feet, and if they don't land on their backs, they will explode from the logical contradiction.

Re:Let's tie some buttered toast to their backs.

[Raven42rac]

No, why not solve the energy crisis at the same time? Attach a buttered piece of toast on the cat's back. Since cats always land on their feet, and toast always lands butter side down, you will create a perpetual motion machine, with the cat just spinning in place.

Re:Let's tie some buttered toast to their backs.

[yourmom16]

both of you are wrong; it is physically impossible to attach the toast to the cat securely enough that it couldn't possibly fall off, so the toast will fall off midfall.

Re:Let's tie some buttered toast to their backs.

[Raven42rac]

Oh, I guarantee you I could figure out a way to keep a piece of toast attached to the cats back. I can't believe I just said that.

Re:Let's tie some buttered toast to their backs.

[yourmom16]

If you do it will lead to a logical contradiction(unless the cat and/or the toast bends so that they both land the correct way).

Ideas

[EvanED]

All the district needs to do is Google for "What to do with AOL CDs". For instance, this site.

Dose this mean...

[Cytlid]

... that if I get sued by the RIAA I can settle out of court and pay them with MP3s?

Huh?

[ThisIsFred]

OK, I've got some questions, and maybe you've got the answers:

* Why is a public school system involved with a settlement about monopoly pricing? That has nothing to do with consumers!

* Since when is donation at the discretion of the "guilty" party an acceptable remedy for price fixing, even if the donated items were in BillBoard's Top 10?

I really don't get it. I think the RIAA is the head of a cartel, but if the gov't was accepting this as a remedy, then they really deserved to get cow dung as a settlement. Just like with the tobacco company settlements, it was done "in the name of...", but it was mainly about the transfer of wealth to someone other than the [allegedly] represented parties. Well, this time it backfired. This is why it's better to indirectly set up the market to fix the issue instead of trying to do it directly. In other words, if you can't fix it, then get the hell out of the way. The RIAA is powerful because they've got a big, fat revenue stream from people who do buy legal copies of the music. That's the problem, and there isn't a way to fix it as long as people think a $20 CD is a good deal. And since the RIAA is so powerful in the US, they can bury a tax in the cost of CD-Rs. It'd be nice if the tax was listed separately on a CD-R package, like the phone company did with the USF tax.

Re:Huh?

[Alsee]

Since when is donation at the discretion of the "guilty" party an acceptable remedy for price fixing, even if the donated items were in BillBoard's Top 10?

Top 10? LOL!

Unless I'm mistaken they are reffering to the Billboard top 200. The CD had to peak in the top half, meaning it had to hit at least #100. Whoo hoo!

-

Re:Huh?

[winwar]

* Why is a public school system involved with a settlement about monopoly pricing? That has nothing to do with consumers!

Probably two reasons:
First, the libraries ARE a consumer. Those CD's they carry aren't donated. They bought them. They are a party to the settlement.

Second, it may have been an additional "penalty" imposed for the public good. You did bad, you probably did more harm than we can quantify, so you have to give X amount to libraries and the such.

Certain about the first. Not sure about the second.

Err...I did RTFA

[FatSean]

I want to know WHO thought this was a good penalty? What about good old Dollars that schools desperately need?!?!

Settling for Too Little

[kalidasa]

Although she was surprised by some inappropriate music, "I'm glad that the schools were even considered," said Cynthia Schultz, director of learning resources for the Northwest Educational Service District, which covers counties from Snohomish to San Juan.

"Whether or not we considered it 'good' was irrelevant," Schultz said. "There was a whole collection of Gene Autry albums. My husband would've given his eyeteeth for those."

Damn. Doesn't that just say it all?

You know they say

[Anonymous Coward]

All students crankin' Puff like it they birfday!

It's been done...

[phayes]

Your idea has already been taken.

In 1961 Piero Manzoni sold his own excrement in cans for more than it's weight in gold. If you want more info, google the old turd...

Winds of change...

[carlos_benj]

Why this could revolutionize the economy and charitable contributions. We can return to something closer to the agrarian barter system where wheat could be traded for eggs. Only this is even better!

Let's say the government decides to extract taxes from the populace... hypothetically of course, since everyone needs groceries, we can pay in groceries! But wait, the best part is that we can allow the groceries to pass through our distribution system and allow our bodies to extract all that we can from them and only have to give the government that portion of the groceries that we couldn't find a use for (I was going to say that portion we couldn't move, but the context was all wrong).

Hey! Maybe we could buy music that way too! Hmmm. Nah, doesn't make sense to trade like items.

Settlements suck

[bigbigbison]

Class-action lawsuit settlements are one of the biggest scams out there. Friends, family and I have been in 3 or 4 of these over the years and every time and in every settlement I've heard of the cunsomers get crap like coupons -- to buy more products from the people who screwed the consumers to begin with!

The only people that profit are *gasp* the lawyers.

It could've be much worse

[pherris]

They could've given them this (windows media player required, sorry).

Junk in My Garage

[Esion Modnar]

So it's like I get sued, and then tell them I have no money, but I can settle by letting them have all the junk in my garage, and that's even including that accessory bit thingy which goes with I-know-not-what.

That RIAA settlement is worse than nothing. It's a slap in the face.

Idiot

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everyone who opposes Republicans is a supporter of Democrats.

You're ignoring the obvious answer:

[burgburgburg]

Flaming drinks.

Oops. I hope neither my parole officer or my AA sponser read this.

Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

The King County Regional Library System already has decided to try to hock its gifts, all 7,700 of them.

As a resident of King County, let me be the first to say:

FU[LOST CARRIER]

An idea from my childhood...

[Black Art]

The courts did not think that the RIAA would be this sleezy. Hopefully they will learn from this and give them *NO* slack in the future. Since they never defined what was to be donated, they got all that worthless junk that goes into the cutout bins. I am surprised that they did not send a few John Ashcroft or orin Hatch albums along to increase the pain level. (Or maybe that was too much even for them.)

As for what to do with all these worthless crappy CDs...

Remember the old "Star Trek disc guns" they sold back in the 70s? They need to make a few that shoot CDs hard and fast. Then line up the RIAA lawyers and executives and have a little target practice.

Of course, they were never very accurate. But they provided plenty of ammo.

Re:An idea from my childhood...

[winwar]

"The courts did not think that the RIAA would be this sleezy."

Huh? An arm of the government run by people with law degrees and members of the bar did not think other lawyers would be sleazy?

Now that's a good one.

Re:An idea from my childhood...

[hiero]

Actually, the courts did put restrictions on the details of the settlement. If you had read the article, you would have encountered this paragraph:

"Part of the settlement the recording industry made with states' attorneys general was that the giveaway CDs couldn't be junk, Larson said. Titles had to be on a Billboard chart for at least 26 weeks and had to peak in the top half of the chart."

Unfortunately, it appears that a lot of crap meets those requirements.

dumping *unsold* inventory

[bestguruever]

I'd say that they pretty much had to dump unsold inventory. Trust me, they would be very happy if they could dump sold inventory. Imagine a 1. 2. 3. list with no ??? and two profit steps. Yeehaw

An excellent idea

[EvilStein]

Really - if they can "pay off" a lawsuit in such a fashion, then why can't the citizens that they're suing?

Seems only fair, right?

Is it really news anymore...

[phearlez]

... when a class action suit results in a settlement/judgement which is a joke for the plantiffs? The only people who ever get anything worth having out of these things are the lawyers.

When defendants can just clean out their storage locker and use unwanted crap to "pay off" their debts these verdicts aren't even going to serve as a punitive measure and preventative for scofflaw companies.

I can imagine one CEO to another - "Hah, we were going to have to charge off all those crap CDs when we discarded them anyway, all we did was change a description in the budget!"

Slight Modification of my Patent Strategy

[Greyfox]

If you've forgotten, I've said that my regime would force applicants and issuing officers to eat 1000 printed copies of bad patents. A similar solution might be useful here. Require that the current president of the RIAA eat all the CDs that the schools don't want. I bet they wouldn't pull THAT shit again...

They've gone a step further

[Lemmeoutada Collecti]

Watch out, though. They could easily Spin Doctor this whole situation, public outcry and all into a positive cash flow in the courts:

'Look, so many people pirated $CRAPPY_CD that we coudn't sell them, we coudn't even give $CRAPPY_CD away!'

Never mind the facts, it's all about the marketiums baby!

IANAL...

[poot_rootbeer]

Actually, sounds more like Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor.

Um, no?

See, it's against the law for minors to consume beer or cigarettes. No such law exists for minors who hear or even speak in expletives (thank you, First Amendment!).

We need to get past this idea that a young adult who hears the "F-word" has been mentally or emotionally harmed.

Re:IANAL...

[Alzheimers]

Tell that to Howard Stern.

what to do with 117,600 useless CDs...

[0WaitState]

What to do will 100,000-plus useless CDs?

Send them to AOL!

BAD article. BAD BAD article

[real gumby]

I only had to read the first paragraph and now I have that goddamned "Mr Bojangles" tune running through my head AND I CAN'T GET RID OF IT!!!

Fire Fire

[ericlp]

Cool. A CD burning party. Be a great media circus!

Reminds me of the Arrogant Worms song...

[schon]

Billy solves his problems
by calling up his mom.
Heather solves her problems
with drugs and alcohol.
Daniel solves his problems
with a doctor and the law,
but Malcolm has his own way,
and it's better than them all.

Malcolm solves his problems with a chainsaw!
Malcolm solves his problems with a chainsaw!
Malcolm solves his problems with a chainsaw!
And he never has the same problem twice.

Whether it's a bill,
or a cheque arriving late,
rancid marble cheese
or a steak that's second rate,
awful tv programs
or a broken Elvis plate
Or his fiance who dumps him,
because he's gaining weight.

Malcolm solves his problems with a chainsaw!
Malcolm solves his problems with a chainsaw!
Malcolm solves his problems with a chainsaw!
And he never has the same problem twice.

How is that possible?

[daveo0331]

If the labels get to write off the full retail value of CDs that they donate, why would a record label ever pay any taxes at all?

Corporate income tax rates are around 35%. So the tax deduction on a "$20 CD" would be $7. It costs a lot less than $7 to manufacture a CD.

Therefore: A record label with $1 billion in profits could just crank out an extra 50 million CDs, donate them to schools or whatever, and have no taxable income. That's nice for the libraries, but should the federal government be (in effect) spending $350 million in taxpayer money to buy CDs from the RIAA?

This is the corporate equivalent of donating your piece of crap undriveable car to charity and then telling the IRS it was worth $5,000.

How About

[TubeSteak]

"Spooky Sounds that Shouldn't be Coming from Cellblock 11"
and its accompanying liner notes with such gems as:
"Things My Cellmate Does To Me In My Sleep"

Inventory

[NickRipley]

The RIAA does not have an inventory. They are not a record label. These CD's had to come from RCA, Warner or Sony. (And from the sounds of it, possibly all of the big seven labels put some releases in.)

"Hey, Bill, this is Kathy with the RIAA. We're settling that suit... can we get 10,000 copies of Willenium? How about a few hundred thousand one song cd's of Whitney Houston singing the National Anthem at the 1991 Super Bowl? Great, I'll send a truck."

Problem with tenses.

[Tony-A]

It must be good stuff, it was on the Billboard! [Emphasis added]

Unless teenagers have changed drastically in the last 40+ years, last year's hits are this years garbage. Kinda like last year's high fashion.

Just download and burn

[Anonymous Coward]

The school system should tell the RIAA to fuck off and die, and go download the music they want and burn it (or store it on a server).

Legal Remedies

[sampson7]

This type of settlement is common place in large class action law suits. Which is fine.

But the parties are bound by the settlement they enter into. And is sounds from the article, that RIAA has breached its obligations under the settlement agreement (especially with the notched/promo CDs).

Somewhere in the settlement agreement there should be a clause specifying what happens if one party or the other does not live up to the terms of the settlement agreement.

It's time to dust off that clause, and head over to see your local friendly judge (preferably one with a child in the school system). With a little legal wrangling, the children of American regain their right to listen to really, really, crappy music.

OK so they sold...still shitty...and why not $$$?

[FatSean]

THat being my main point...WTF did the gov't decide CDs was a proper penalty. Should have made them cough up real dollars to buy things schools and libraries need more than crap popular music.

Hooray!

[Cyno01]

Even Jesus didn't like Creed anymore.

they should do this, exactly

[mnemonic_]

Fourteen tons of tritonal explosive coupled with plastique, electronically fused. Zirconium fragments and easily-made napalm, with multiple thermite grenades attached for maximum incendiary effect.

Anone who sues in 2005...

[NickRipley]

Anyone who sues the RIAA in 2005 better watch out, Paris Hilton has an album coming out then.

Err... what?

[Anonymous Coward]

-1, Assumes everything is the same everywhere

I know two homeschooled people (now adults). Let's just say their education was lacking in science and math. All science and math. And history was bascially bible stories plus the American revolution. Color me unimpressed.

Re:Err... what?

[nlindstrom]

My experience precisely. My mother, acting as "teacher" and "head mistress" all rolled into one, felt that reading the bible eight hours a day was more than sufficient to give me and my siblings a firm grounding in reality.

All I have to say is thank $DEITY for the public library. It was there that I educated myself, and eventually threw off the mental shackles of the Dead Man On A Stick religion. I had to read the books I got from the library on the sly, since my parents would have beaten me had they found them.

You heard right; not grounded me, not reprimanded me; beaten me. Bet you didn't realize that home schoolers make up the largest contingent of the we-spank-our-children-for-their-own-good crowd?

These people actually believe that The Crusades were good for all the people involved; that the Salem Witch Trials helped hold back the forces of darkness and save the innocent people of Salem; and that our founding fathers -- all of them -- were devote christians who prayed to jesus on a daily, if not hourly, basis. That's what I was taught, and that's what I had to painstakingly unlearn through countless hours of reading at the library.

If I had to credit one author with doing the most through his or her words to open my eyes, I'd point to Ayn Rand.

MOD PARENT UP

[RosebudLTD]

It's so freaking annoying to see America bashers on here, and all the worse when they present 'facts' with no basis.

/. needs more level-headed people like the parent's poster, who go on fact and evidence, rather than stupidity.

Re:MOD PARENT UP

[Dun Malg]

/. needs more level-headed people like the parent's poster, who go on fact and evidence, rather than stupidity.

Heh. Dunno if it was level-headedness so much as it was me finally seeing a chance to use the OED2 on CDROM that I paid several hundred dollars for. :)

Re:MOD PARENT UP

[macdaddy]

OED? Mind telling us what it is? Sounds interesting.

Re:MOD PARENT UP

[Dun Malg]

OED? Mind telling us what it is? Sounds interesting.

The Oxford English Dictionary. The definitive record of the english language. Started in 1879, the OED was intended to catalogue every word in the english language and contains quoted excerpts of the earliest written usages of each word. The history of it is pretty interesting. There's a few good books about it's compilation too.May favorite was The Professor and the Madman.

Re:MOD PARENT UP

[macdaddy]

I just might have to pick up a copy of my own. I paid for a membership to dictionary.com (dictionary.reference.com IIRC). I pop open that page at least 2 dozen times a day on a slow typing day. OED might be pretty interesting too! Thanks

I also liked it when he went psycho...

[bani]

...and smashed the hell out of the tape, and various other studio objects, before being led out of the studio by security.

The look on the stunned VJ's faces was priceless...

Plague of Consumer Culture

[MooseByte]

"Do you agree, or do you think I'm taking it too far?"

I agree fully on the Consumerism rant. I know people who need both their incomes to cover their mortgage. But then again that was a choice. I have plenty of friends and relatives who say they have no choice. But if asked they're forced to concede that no, nobody is forcing them at gunpoint to live in a 5-bedroom cul-de-sac lot. Or a 3-bedroom home in coastal California.

The problem is that Americans have a VERY skewed perspective of what is a need vs. what is a luxury. Then the "needed luxuries" lock people into a lifestyle that prevents one of them from being able to stay home and focus on raising their own kids for the first several critical years.

Also those "needed luxuries" lock them into jobs and careers they may hate. What a wasted life.

Great saying: "There are two ways to be rich - Make more, or want less."

And before someone starts pissing and moaning about how "I just don't know what it's like", I recently had to live in a 1-bedroom apartment for a few years with my kids because that's all we could afford. We've since rebounded, and yes that extreme was a challenge for us. But you know what? We're still here and we're a tight family. And we had fun. Parks, trails, community swimming pools, all kinds of essentially free stuff. How about flying a kite? Books from the library? And actually doing those things WITH them?

I also know a couple who job-share, so they both get to have a hand in raising their kids. They don't have a huge house, live in an upscale community, or own a big SUV hauling a rarely-used power boat, yet mysteriously they're very happy. And they have great kids. Go figure.

Re:Plague of Consumer Culture

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree with what your saying. My personal experience which has come back to bite me in the ass is right along the same lines. I had a great job, was around people with money and object status etc was seemingly important so I spent lots of money. Now I regret it, and I'm stuck in a difficult position on a much lower paying job now trying to climb out of a seemingly impossible hole.
People should want less. I lost count a long time ago, of the number of people I've met who were well off and even millionaires who seemed miserable despite all their toys. Drink to forget, where a fake smile, and laugh as the money is thrown away. Debt is evil. After my experiences now I don't think I ever want to try to own a house even, unless I can pay for it up front (a rediculous concept I know). Good thing I have a credit card though, there's a whole bunch of CDs that I absolutely must have :/

Re:Plague of Consumer Culture

[rhuntley12]

Just to go off and add to your point a little. Luxury doesn't always mean a closer family and better life. When I was in high school my brother had me come stay with him for a summer because he didn't want to put his step daughter in daycare.(His wife just got pregnant and was working for the summer helping her friend out, long story) so I came out to take care of her during the day. They lived in a small apartment, and I don't think I've ever seen a closer family. They always went to parks and did things as a family. How many families that live in the luxury they think they need end up being divorced, ignored, etc? Since then they now have a fairly huge house and a lot of luxuries, but they still spend a lot of time togather, so I guess I kind of have no point.

I know when my girlfriend and I if we ever have a kid, one of us will not be working. Or atleast not fulltime. I just can't believe how people would rather have another 40k SUV by both working, instead of raising their child.

free is not binary

[gosand]

In an unfree society, we would not be able to debate this. In an unfree society, you would be unable to go here and see naked breasts. In an unfree society, I would not be able to post this.

So you believe that there are only the free and the unfree? We have many freedoms, but the ones we don't have are simply ridiculous. We can, or more appropriately are encouraged to, watch violence on a DAILY BASIS on television. Yet the sight of a woman's bare breast sends the government into a hissy-fit. Violence, murder, and crime are all seemingly OK for TV and movies, but nudity is not. In a free society. Insane.

Don't get so stressed out at the economic censure of public speech. Get stressed out when they start trying to censor PRIVATE speech.

Economic censorship? WTF is that? Economics bear themselves out. The FCC should have nothing to do with economics. It is about ensuring that the people on the public airwaves are held to the same standards of conduct. The SECOND they start deviating from that, it is censorship. There is no economics to it. People are not forced to tune into any radio show. In fact, listeners are how radio programs stay in business, via advertising revenue. (Save NPR) If people don't like it, they don't tune in, ratings go down, and the shows go away. It is somewhat of a self-governing industry. The fact of the matter is, the shows that were fined by the FCC were not being held to the same standard as everyone else. You cannot selectively enforce the rules because of political bias, which is what happened and is happening.

damn politician show they'll suck cock for $$

[Anonymous Coward]

very few politicians are moral and ethical these days (and not in a neocon pseudo christian way).

Large corporations get away with this because we let them. Get a gun and start killing ceo's of these corporations (aka fightclub). After a few dozen, maybe then we can start on the politicians they paid off, then the administration that supports it.

finally there will be no one left and we can run the country.

(meant to be a sarcastic joke for you dumbass Carnivore bitches reading these boards)

Look at the pretty shiny mobiles, kiddies

[gelfling]

Remember to bring in those metal coathangers and we'll make pretty shiny projects for parent teacher night.

Why is it the corporation's fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting you would fault the corporations. Seems to me that the people who actively make a decision to engage in such behavior are the ones at fault. Lets put the blame square where it is due: on the shoulders of those people who make a bad decision.

Just because the corporations enourage those bad decisions does not make them at fault. If your kid had a friend who talked him into throwing rocks through your neighbors windows, who is at fault? Sure, you can blame the neighbor's kid all you want. If it were not for him, your child would not of commited such a stupid act. But, the important thing is, if you kid knew to say "no, that is wrong" and stand up for what he believes in, it would not of happned.

You can push blame away from yourself but only a fool does not seek the real reason why something happens. To blame someone else for one's decisions is just an excuse and will never lead to a life of making beter decisions, which is what everyone needs to do.

Re:Why is it the corporation's fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

By your logic Charles Manson should be a free man. He only talked those people into becoming murderers.

Aha! The Answer!

[Anonymous Coward]

The RIAA should be ordered to give away no more than 1 copy of each CD.

These things can be copied, after all!!!

And the lawyers??

[Anonymous Coward]

How many CDs do the lawyers get?

Maybe

[heybo]

If they sue me for downloading music maybe I can give them my dirty socks as payment.

Max Public Education Speaks

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine our surprise.

This Settlement Crap Won't End...

[Nom du Keyboard]

This settlement crap won't end until it is required that the lawyers be paid in kind (CD's, vouchers, weird rebate certificates, tiny discounts on future airline travel, Windows upgrades, etc.) that the winning plaintiffs are paid with.

Great Example

[bluepinstripe]

I think the RIAA has provided a great example of how to settle a lawsuit. If I'm ever sued by the RIAA, I will offer to settle with them for a cash equivalent in my fecal matter, valued at $15.99 per ounce.

Re:This stuff is useful, look for yourself! $$$$$$

[Nom du Keyboard]

I still don't understand why the RIAA has so much political power when so much of the product that they sell is so clearly anti-social.

Money.

They have it, and they know how to use it.

Parenting

[Anonymous Coward]

My mother is a grade school teacher so I get to hear the horror stories about crappy parenting all of the time. I really find it sad that the No Child Left Behind act has absolutely zero requirements for parental involvement. If the parents aren't involved in raising their kids, you can't seriously expect a public school, that only has the kids for seven or eight hours a day, to raise them. Schools really need the ability to say that Billy's doing poorly in school because his parents are drunks and don't spend any time with him. Instead, Billy having shitty parents is the school's problem.

Had Tipper's husband Al won..

[TheConfusedOne]

...I'm sure we would have seen MUCH less of this whole social issue crusading, eh?

The FCC didn't raise the fine, Congress did. The FCC doesn't have the power to do things like that unilateraly. You'd probably be disappointed to see the number of D's in the Aye column on that one...

Re:Had Tipper's husband Al won..

[rben]

The fact is that politicians, regardless of party, work purely on two principles which we can call the "squeaky wheel" and "big bucks" principles. They sponser and vote for legistlation that answers whatever the current hot topic is. The hot topic is usually driven by those people who are upset enough to call and write letters. That means that most of us, who are more concerned with just getting through the day in one piece than spending all our time lobbying our representatives, are under represented. There is no "sanity" lobby.

The legislators also respond to the people who give them big checks, like the RIAA. That is because it costs a lot of money to win an election and most of them are in hock to their eyeballs when they take office.

Most of us know that worrying about explicit lyrics is silly. Most of us find some sort of lyrics somewhere offensive, but we do have the option to not listen to music we don't like.

Any parent that is so out of touch with their kids that they don't know what their kid is listening to has bigger problems than any that could be caused by explicit lyrics. The government has always made a very poor parent.

If you want to live in a more rationale world, there is something you can do. Don't buy stuff from the RIAA if you don't like the way they behave. Educate yourself about the issues and candidates and vote in every election. Don't vote for you party, vote based on issues that matter to your daily life. Finally, take a moment to squeak a bit yourself and write, or even better call, your representatives and tell them how you want them to better represent you. They are supposed to be working for you.

Democracy isn't free. It cost lives to win it and keep it. One thing we should all realize is that the cost of keeping our democracy is far lower when we participate in it than if we fail to act until we find it is slipping away.

I was wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

You can give that shit away. :)

Let's do the math, shall we?

[Weaselmancer]

$143,000,000 (settlement) / 115,241 (cds) = $1240.87 (dollars per cd)

Wow! It's no wonder why piracy is so rampant!

But hey - good news. If you get sued, the average out-of-court settlement is $3000, and that's:

$3000 (settlement) / $1240.87 (dollars per cd) = 2.41 (cds per settlement)

So, when the RIAA shows up at your door, give them your Best of Men at Work cd, your Looney Tunes Christmas cd, and your second copy of Pearl Jam 10, and you're off the hook!

Oh yeah, don't forget to ask for your change. $722.61. =)

Explicit Lyrics and Censorship

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention the explicit lyrics CDs the schools received that will have to be transfered out.

Seeing as how we're talking about public schools, wouldn't getting rid of those CDs amount to censorship? After all, public schools are government institutions.

Nothing wrong with the quality, just the quantity

[clf8]

Ok, first of all, everyone saying that the RIAA is trying to corrupt minors or shouldn't be donating music that isn't "wholesome" or "educational" needs to take a step back. For a site that shows so many complaints about people's free speech being trampled on, look at the abrupt about face when the material comes from the RIAA. Just because you find something indecent doesn't mean I do. In fact, I would prefer my library to have a wider selection of things, and simply restrict access to those under 18. Doesn't anyone else's library carry Playboy?

The issue here is the quantity. I think we can all agree no library system needs hundreds of Whitney singing the "Star Spangled Banner", as the article said, two per library at most. Whether this is just a programming glitch, even I will remain skeptical. The public library shouldn't censor it's music or movie selection and more than their book collection. So unless you're making a joke, please think before you complain about the selection.

1800 CD's of mostly junk

[mschuyler]

I work in a library that just received 1800 CD's, 30 to 40 copies of each CD (we have nine branches), and mostly junk, and even lots of remaindered stuff. These guys obviously just cleaned out their warehouses of dead wood. The AG of WA state is running around saying what a great win-win deal this is. Nonsense. I won't claim every single title is bad, but it's mostly junk. Lots and lots of junk.

Are you kidding me?

[cbreaker]

Do you *really* think that the teachers and school administrators are going to give that stuff to the kids? More likely, it will be available in libraries and such, and you'll need a parent to rent or buy them.

Insightful my ass. You're being ignorant.

This is good.

[SomeOtherGuy]

I think this is a good precedent. If I ever get sued by the RIAA for my occasional "sample" of music before purchase, then I at least know that I can pay my fines by sending them back all of the crap CD's that I had purchased before I had the internet to screen the CD's.

You are just as guilty

[Anonymous Coward]

"freaking"? I think you mean "fucking" which is an Anglo Saxon term of good standing.

Still, you support the original poster's ultimate assertion which is that pompous Americans lack a sense of humour.

Re:You are just as guilty

[RosebudLTD]

No, I meant "freaking". If I meant "fucking", I would have said "fucking".

Am I not allowed to think the original poster sucks for posting drivel like that, without the balls to back it up?

You are an idiot.

Re:You are just as guilty

[basingwerk]

The yanks changed GOD to GOSH, JESUS to GEEWIZZ, TITBIT to TIDBIT , FUCKING to FREAKING , SHIT to SUGAR and all sorts of other nonsense I expect.

I am not America bashing. Everybody already knows that Americans are influenced by Christian fundamentalism, and that American society is overly prudish as a result. This should not be news to anybody, so I can't understand why you are complaining.

Re:You are just as guilty

[darien]

Hey, we Brits aren't any better. We changed "by God" to "egad", "God's wounds" to "zounds" and "God's hooks" to "gadzooks".

Re:You are just as guilty

[basingwerk]

Fair do's, but only Colonel Blimps have ever used that sort of language!

Re:Not the RIAA. A group of labels != the RIAA

[Anonymous Coward]

Not the RIAA? These are the biggest movers and shakers of the recording industry!!! Just who do you think the RIAA are? This probably represents 95% of industry sales.

Who are the Defendants? The Distributor Defendants are: Capitol Records, Inc. d/b/a EMI Music Distribution, Virgin Records America, Inc., and Priority Records LLC; Time Warner, Inc., Warner-Elektra-Atlantic Corp., WEA, Inc., Warner Music Group, Inc., Warner Bros. Records, Inc., Atlantic Recording Corporation, Elektra Entertainment Group, Inc., and Rhino Entertainment Company; Universal Music & Video Distribution Corporation, Universal Music Group, Inc., and UMG Recordings, Inc.; Bertelsmann Music Group, Inc. and BMG Music; and Sony Music Entertainment Inc. The Retailer Defendants are: MTS, Inc. d/b/a Tower Records, Musicland Stores Corp., and Trans World Entertainment Corp.

From the article linked above...

[geekwench]

...a spokeswoman for the [Tate] gallery told the London Telegraph that the Manzoni piece was a bargain at that price. She called Manzoni an incredibly important artist and his Can 004 "a seminal work."

Y'know, I was going to make a terribly snarky comment about how the gallery spokeswoman was referencing the wrong bodily function. Upon second thought, however, I feel that /. has suffered quite enough already today. ;)

Tabacco

[Anonymous Coward]

If I ever get sued I can't pay with pocket lint or any old thing laying around my house, why do large organization get to? Would it have been acceptable if the tabacco industry had paid in cigarettes when they were sued by the states?
*cough* *cough* Here you go just suck on one of these.

No, No, No

[Furd]

Other sources (MSNBC) have already pointed out that the motives ascribed to the record companies in this article are just not there. Rather, it was a screw-up in their allocation scheme

But when the first shipments began arriving last week, some librarians suspected that the companies -- the Bertelsmann Music Group, EMI Music Distribution, Warner-Elektra-Atlantic, Warner Music Group and Sony Music Entertainment -- were dumping CDs that had been gathering dust in warehouses when they received hundreds of copies of some titles for which there is little or no demand.

The good news is that the mystery has been solved and the source of the overabundance has been determined to be nothing more sinister than a computer-programming glitch that will soon be fixed, law enforcement officials say.

The bad news is that libraries that were among the first to receive their free CDs are now going to have to figure out what to do with all the duplicates.

So, nothing to see here. Just keep moving. [via BoingBoing and my weblog]

Class Action Bullsh*t

[phorm]

I was notified that - because I had entered a complaint to HP about a printer with paper feeding issues - I was included in a class action which was subsequently pursued against HP for a defect causing said feed issues.

I recently got my settlement... $25 off a new printer, if the printer is worth a certain amount.

So yes, I'd agree that class action suits are often BS... except when against individuals or entities without a physical product. You don't see doctors offering "free surgery" coupons when hit with a class action for malpractice or something similar...

What's a WA school?

[Anonymous Coward]

An American thing I'm assuming. Apologies if the question has already been asked.

Re:What's a WA school?

[ChiperSoft]

WA would be the two letter abbreviation for the state of Washington.

what to do with the extra's amswer EBAY

[cyrax777]

id ebay the extra cds and use the cash to buy needed books and cds.

Oh the irony

[Anonymous Coward]

"Freaking" isn't in the dictionary. Well it is, but I suspect you do not mean to use it as John Milton did. "Freaking" is a euphemism for "fucking". The fact you are not cognisant of this fact shows just how much you have been brain-washed by your namby-pamby American culture that censors everything that might make you wake up to the world you have made (e.g., the dead bodies of your young soldiers who died to fight a corrupt president's oil war)

Re:Oh the irony

[Anonymous Coward]

freaking

I think the definition of freaking better fits his sentence than the definition of fucking.

Maybe you shouldn't act like you know what somebody is saying when they say something that is obviously different.

Re:Oh the irony

[RosebudLTD]

No, the irony would be if, after your rant about Americans-this and Americans-that, and 'your something PROVES America is blah blah blah...', has gone on for several hours...

if someone whispered 'Ummm, he's not American' in your ear. That'd be funny, huh? What would that say about you?

can invidivuals do that to deduct their taxes?

[cheekyboy]

So if i make a crap music cd of my singing in the shower and try to sell it retail for $29.95, and print 2000 CDs x $30 ($60000 value) and donate them all to a church can I claim $60000 deduction in my high income job and then pay zero tax for my $2000 expense of printing the CDs? If I can and everyone can, this would be awesome way to pay no tax at all.

Some one call their accountant.

duuuhhhhh

[poptones]

So... Jello Biafra is "functional" because he (sorta) looks "normal" and Rob Zombie is "dysfuncitonal" because he looks like a zombie biker?

And you think the music industry has problems?

The only thing wrong with "hiphop culture" is that so many still seem to see Hollywood as some sort of prize, rather than realizing it's just the new massa.

Or, to put it another way: there's too damn many hang-around-the-fort indians...

Heh gott a Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Sell all that shit and then use the revenues to by a years subscription to as many junk mags as you can muster....it'll be the gift that keeps on giving, and giving, and giving.

What? No Ice T? *gasp!*

[dopefish3]

A yo Ice man. I'm working on this term paper for college. What's the
First Amendment?

Freedom of Speech!...

take the f@$#%$ back to court.

[neuraloverload]

ahem, take the f#ckers back to court. if this is their idea of responsibilities inherent in the court order, then take them back and add penalties. the thing i find stupidist of all, downright moronic in fact, absolutely ignorant, is that the value of martha stewart's halloween sounds was probably 19.99$ retail, and figured in the settlement shipment that way. now multiply that by greatest hits '71, and remember the cost of less than 1$ per disc to produce.

could have been worse

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine if AOL loses a lawsuit and dumps all it's extra CD's on someone!
It's nice to know clearing up warehouse space at the cost of the tax payer is how we are punishing the recording industry for it's behavior. That'll learn 'em. Ya, that'll learn him real good.