Yeah, postgres and linux do well on a pair of redundant 32CPU machine that's being HAMMERED, running with 32GB of memory in use and more waiting.
IBM certainly thinks that Linux is either ready to handle that, or will be before long. In fact, IBM has put a tremendous amount of money into getting Linux to scale on their big iron, and it doesn't look like that's going to stop any time soon.
I don't have any 32-way machines sitting around, but I did recently benchmark PostgreSQL on a 4-way Opteron, limitting the functionality at boot time to 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4 processers. Linux and PG scaled beautifully. And as time goes on, it'll just keep getting better. If that weren't the case, I don't think that IBM would be putting so much money into it.
And yeah, BSD fills lots of places in the infrastructures, but BSD and Linux didn't come up with CrayLink or NUMA.
That's OK. There's very little in Linux (that I'm aware of) that can be said to be a completely original idea. But there's also a very large amount that can be said to be as good or better than anything produced by the commercial vendors. Look at Sun hardware, for crying out loud. Everyone I know who's used Linux and Solaris on Sun machines has said that Linux performa far better than Solaris. Do you see Linux on an E15K? No. But is that because it wouldn't work, or because Sun won't release all of the information that's needed?
And there's something kind of nice about when your $10million company has a problem with the $100,000 server that I can make a call and have a bunch of people answer who are PAID to run around and make my problem their high priority.
I think there's something even more nice about having the server break down, and being able to fix the machine yourself, but maybe that's just me.
Btw there are basically zero games that take real advantage of a second CPU
From comments made by John Carmack in the past, that's only going to be true until August 5th.
John's said that the game is fully multithreaded - as an example, the audio, specifically, runs in its own thread. I don't recall (or he didn't say) just how many different threads will be created and used, but video games actually have huge potential benefits in an SMP system. Between physics, sound, rendering, AI, environment, and everything else going on, there should be plenty to keep a pair of CPUs busy, if the coders take the time to do it right.
On that (somewhat off-topic) note, about ten years ago, the local "car dealership baron" in my state lobbied succesfully to move property tax on cars from a value-based tax to an age-based tax.
That, of course, means that the person driving a brand-new, $7,000 economy car pays as much in property tax as the person in the $50,000 three-ton moving warehouse.
That way, when someone comes in to buy one of the dealership's most profitable vehicles, they aren't faced with the possibility of paying their fare share of the property taxes, they're being subsidized by poorer (or just more sensible) purchasers.
Writing multithreaded applications (or SMP-capable operating systems) that work well is hard work
Yeah, so what? Once the engineering and coding is done, it's done. Or are you telling me that by upgrading a machine from two CPUs to four CPUs somehow cost the developers more money?
and since it's much easier to engineer single-core, single-CPU systems,
Actually, it's MUCH easier to simply put two of your cores on a single die than it is to put all of the R&D into a new architecture to fill the same die. I'd guess that the cost of dual-cores is about 1% of the cost of developping a new architecture.
That's still like changing the price of a car based on how fast you're going to drive it, and is sufficiently retarded that it can only survive in markets where the barriers to entry are pretty high.
The idea of putting that sort of thing near the customer (in the ISP) isn't new at all. It's been promoted and advocated for years. There's just one problem: ISPs don't want to do it.
They claim that they're just in the business of moving bits from one point to another. They dig in their heels and resist just about any sort of filtering on their customers. There's just one irony: They all whine, moan, and complain when someone else's infected/stupid/malicious customer causes problems for them, and the other ISP doesn't take care of it.
I can't tell you how many times I've been approached by people, and asked "Why doesn't anyone offer a service where you're protected from (insert virus/spam/whatever)?" While I haven't (yet) started a business doing it, I've made quite a few people happy by giving them email through my mail server, where any executable attachment is blocked. A couple of times per year, it'll block a legitimate email. But (literally) tens of thousands of times per day, it's preventing malicious email from ever hitting their computer.
load-balancing between web servers is eventually limitted by how many ports you can have open at once - depending on how you adjust your settings, anywhere from 10,000 to nearly 60,000 per IP address.
So, five front-end load balancers, with twenty IP addresses assigned to each, and a couple of spares to take over if one fails. That gives you what, six *million* concurrent connections? Your bandwidth issues/bills are going to GREATLY eclipse your serving capacity at that point.
Then it's just a matter of shoving cheap, non-redunant, commodity machines in a rack to handle the requests. Say, a bunch of low-power, tiny Epia-based machines all pulling from a central file server.
So, someone updates the RSS file on the file server. Each of the 5/10/100/however-many front-end servers access it once, at which point it goes into file cache. Then they all dish it out like crazy.
Yes, this is an expensive solution: But I like it. I like it because it puts the cost on the person that wants to distribute the RSS feed. Other solutions, like uploading it to NNTP servers, shifts the cost to nearly everyone BUT the provider of information.
Language acquisition doesn't come naturally later on? I moved to another country for a few years, and became fluent in the language while there. And since I've been back, I've been picking up quite a bit of a few other languages just by reading a little bit here and there. I don't think that I'm in any way "gifted", I just have happened to pay some attention to it.
Perhaps you should give it a try, see if it's what you really want to do.
Why, aren't they allowing anybody in who isn't born there? Or are you saying that it's too late for you to change some beliefs you grew up with in America? Or is it too late for you to learn another language? What, exactly, is there that you just can't change now in your life?
Now, when the situation is reversed, English speakers think they have the right to behave in the same absurd way.
That's the problem with people in general: They want things cushy for themselves, even if it means a great inconvenience for a lot of other people. I've seen it in whites, latin-americans, blacks, americans, europeans, south-americans, asians, homosexuals, heterosexuals, religious people, athiests, rich, poor, educated, uneducated, skinny, fat, tall, short, and everyone in between. In fact, the person who can say "This sure is inconveniencing to me, but to change it would bother a lot of people even more" seem to be an extreme rarity these days.
When people come to the USA, where the vastly predominant language is English, and they don't bother to learn English, then they're just lazy, and deserve whatever consequences befall them.
(When I moved to a foreign country for a couple of years, I learned quite a bit of the language before I even went - and the entire time I was there, I worked on my language skills and accent.)
Of course, that means that in the Orkut case, where it's predominantly Portugese, I think that the Americans can either (a) learn Portugese, or (b) deal with it. It's what I expect of others, it's what I expect of myself, it's what I expect of my fellow countrymen.
Nowadays wedding photographers will use digital or even 35mm film and it's possible to get high quality prints that way
If I was going to pay a few thousand bucks, and the photographer showed up with a 35mm or digital, I'd personally beat him to a bloody pulp, and take the money back out of his wallet.
If they're going to charge that much and don't even show up with a medium-format camera, then chances are pretty good that they fall into the "I wanna be a big-time photog!" camp, not the truly professional camp.
Because that equipment doesn't come cheap. I bought a nice DV camcorder last year with the intention of doing wedding videography this year. Every time I quoted someone a price, the basic reaction was, "WTF?" And my quotes were known to be as much as half of other videographers listed in the yellow pages.
Are you trying to make back the cost of the camera in one shot or something? Let's say you blow $2,000 on the camera. How many weddings are you going to shoot with that if you're actually planning on being "in the business" - a hundred? That only adds $20 to the cost of the shoot. Bought a $4,000 computer to do the editing? That comes out to $40.
So, does the extra $60 for materials really make them jump, or am I missing something?
Really. Especially "Wedding Photographers", who are often somebody with a 35mm camera who wants to believe that they're an "artist".
When I got married, I found an excellent photographer. He's actually an architectural photographer. He had so many requests for weddings, he hired an assistant just to shoot weddings.
Now, he doesn't want to have the hastle of keeping an expensive office just to make people feel good when they come in to order prints. And he doesn't want to have to pay a secretary to sit and take orders all day. And he doesn't want to deal with endless orders for reprints.
All he does is send out the assistant with a medium-format to shoot pictures, send out the film for developping, proofs, and an initial package of prints. He gives you the whole mess - including the negatives. Then he tells you the photo house he sends out to for prints, and lets you get whatever you want.
He told me that just by hiring the assitant (who actually does TERRIFIC) work, his income jumped up by $70,000 per year. Now, for a lot of people, just making$70,000 per year would be very welcome. For him, it's just a raise for sending someone else out to do the work. And he still charged us much less than any of the other bidders.
Here's where it gets really good: We wanted a 16x20 print to hang on the wall. We took it to the photo house he recommended, and had it printed. It was done at exactly the same place it would have been printed at had a "traditional" photographer done it for us. But it literally cost us less than one-fifth of what the "traditional" photographers wanted for their prints.
It's really just a racket. Photogs keeping their negatives is just a protectionist movement designed to keep them in business, it's a tradition going back to the inception of guilds and before. And to boot, a lot of "wedding photographers" are nothing more than someone who bought an SLR and want to think that they're big-time.
There are photographers who truly are artists, and whose art truly deserves recompense. But when someone shows up, spends an hour taking pictures of your $2,000 wedding dress, your $5,000 ring, your $5,000 reception, and you, I find it truly hard to accept that they themselves have created a piece of art, of which they should retain copyright (and profits) for the rest of eternity. You paid for everything, you did all of the planning and work, and it's your image. They showed up, called up the family members, and told you where to stand. You should retain the copyright.
Like so many other businesses ($100 chinese-made polyester wedding dresses selling for $1,000 or $50 worth of titanium selling for $500 because it's in a ring-shape), they're just jumping on the "Wedding Gravy Train".
Ulysses Everett McGill: I don't know Delmar. The blind are reputed to possess sensitivities compensating for their lack of sight, even to the point of developing paranormal psychic powers. Now, clearly seeing into the future would fall into neatly into that category; its not so surprising then that an organism deprived of its earthly vision...
Just to save themselves the minor pain of providing a decent user-interface for their domain registration.
Really. Despite the fact that they're 3 or 4 times more expensive than some of their competitors, a lot of people would still stay with them if trying to do business with them wasn't like trying to give an enema to a herd of feral cheetahs.
Because the machines are clustered, there is no redundancy in most of them - one can fail, the others can take over for it. On the more critical machines, yes, there are redundant powers supplies.
About a year ago, we switched data centers, and had to power down our rack of x86 machines running Linux. A couple of them had redundancy in hardware (power supplies, RAID arrays, etc.), but the majority of them, working as a load-balanced web farm, had no redundancy at all.
Out of the rack of machines, nearly all of them had been up for the full two years that they'd been in the data center. Of the few that hadn't been up the entire time, *one* had a power supply die, the others were shut down for hardware upgrades.
Now, a year later, all of the machines are still up and running. I really don't have any doubt that a fair number of them would have achieved 6-year uptimes, had they been left in place long enough.
For the person who submitted the question: Why wouldn't it be possible?
For the/. monkey who approved the story: Why, oh why, do you need to post useless questions like this, to which the simple answer is "yes"? Has/. become every lazy newbie's HOWTO?
Lets face it, if you haven't worked retail then you simply don't know what hell is. Customers are often devoid of communication skills, arrogant, flat out dumb or in such a god damn hurry that they just don't care about anyone or anything else.
Wow. It sounds like you're describing most retail employees, not customers.
I got a laser printer shipped via UPS *during the big UPS strike*. It sat in a warehouse for quite some time, then was severely manhandled during transit. When it showed up, it looked like a sphere of soft, delapidated cardboard.
I opened up the box, the printer had been packed with expanding foam - and worked perfectly. It's been something like 8 years now, and the printer still works flawlessly.
When you send something delicate via UPS (or any other shipping company), you've just got to realize that it's going to be abused, and pack it for the worst-case situation.
Wow. The PCI riser card came out, and apparently the DIMM came off of the card. I haven't used *every* rackmount case out there, but every single case I've ever used with a riser card had a way to solidly hold the riser card in place (metal bars screwed to the chassis). Furthermore, every rackmount case I've used has a way to solidly mount the PCI cards - nearly all are with screws, the few that aren't are still solid enough that they're NOT going to budge from even a really, REALLY good shaking/beating.
So, there's a riser card that isn't solidly connected, and a PCI card on it that isn't solidly expected, and you gave it to a shipping company? I wouldn't have paid you a dime on the damages, either.
I've had a very good number of rackmounts shipped via UPS ground and/or freight carrier. Never had a problem. All items were properly secured, and the machines were properly packaged. Did they get manhandled? You bet. Damaged boxes? Of course. Damage to the computers? Nope.
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Yeah, postgres and linux do well on a pair of redundant 32CPU machine that's being HAMMERED, running with 32GB of memory in use and more waiting.
IBM certainly thinks that Linux is either ready to handle that, or will be before long. In fact, IBM has put a tremendous amount of money into getting Linux to scale on their big iron, and it doesn't look like that's going to stop any time soon.
I don't have any 32-way machines sitting around, but I did recently benchmark PostgreSQL on a 4-way Opteron, limitting the functionality at boot time to 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4 processers. Linux and PG scaled beautifully. And as time goes on, it'll just keep getting better. If that weren't the case, I don't think that IBM would be putting so much money into it.
And yeah, BSD fills lots of places in the infrastructures, but BSD and Linux didn't come up with CrayLink or NUMA.
That's OK. There's very little in Linux (that I'm aware of) that can be said to be a completely original idea. But there's also a very large amount that can be said to be as good or better than anything produced by the commercial vendors. Look at Sun hardware, for crying out loud. Everyone I know who's used Linux and Solaris on Sun machines has said that Linux performa far better than Solaris. Do you see Linux on an E15K? No. But is that because it wouldn't work, or because Sun won't release all of the information that's needed?
And there's something kind of nice about when your $10million company has a problem with the $100,000 server that I can make a call and have a bunch of people answer who are PAID to run around and make my problem their high priority.
I think there's something even more nice about having the server break down, and being able to fix the machine yourself, but maybe that's just me.
steve
Btw there are basically zero games that take real advantage of a second CPU
From comments made by John Carmack in the past, that's only going to be true until August 5th.
John's said that the game is fully multithreaded - as an example, the audio, specifically, runs in its own thread. I don't recall (or he didn't say) just how many different threads will be created and used, but video games actually have huge potential benefits in an SMP system. Between physics, sound, rendering, AI, environment, and everything else going on, there should be plenty to keep a pair of CPUs busy, if the coders take the time to do it right.
steve
On that (somewhat off-topic) note, about ten years ago, the local "car dealership baron" in my state lobbied succesfully to move property tax on cars from a value-based tax to an age-based tax.
That, of course, means that the person driving a brand-new, $7,000 economy car pays as much in property tax as the person in the $50,000 three-ton moving warehouse.
That way, when someone comes in to buy one of the dealership's most profitable vehicles, they aren't faced with the possibility of paying their fare share of the property taxes, they're being subsidized by poorer (or just more sensible) purchasers.
steve
Writing multithreaded applications (or SMP-capable operating systems) that work well is hard work
Yeah, so what? Once the engineering and coding is done, it's done. Or are you telling me that by upgrading a machine from two CPUs to four CPUs somehow cost the developers more money?
and since it's much easier to engineer single-core, single-CPU systems,
Actually, it's MUCH easier to simply put two of your cores on a single die than it is to put all of the R&D into a new architecture to fill the same die. I'd guess that the cost of dual-cores is about 1% of the cost of developping a new architecture.
steve
That's still like changing the price of a car based on how fast you're going to drive it, and is sufficiently retarded that it can only survive in markets where the barriers to entry are pretty high.
steve
The idea of putting that sort of thing near the customer (in the ISP) isn't new at all. It's been promoted and advocated for years. There's just one problem: ISPs don't want to do it.
They claim that they're just in the business of moving bits from one point to another. They dig in their heels and resist just about any sort of filtering on their customers. There's just one irony: They all whine, moan, and complain when someone else's infected/stupid/malicious customer causes problems for them, and the other ISP doesn't take care of it.
I can't tell you how many times I've been approached by people, and asked "Why doesn't anyone offer a service where you're protected from (insert virus/spam/whatever)?" While I haven't (yet) started a business doing it, I've made quite a few people happy by giving them email through my mail server, where any executable attachment is blocked. A couple of times per year, it'll block a legitimate email. But (literally) tens of thousands of times per day, it's preventing malicious email from ever hitting their computer.
steve
load-balancing between web servers is eventually limitted by how many ports you can have open at once - depending on how you adjust your settings, anywhere from 10,000 to nearly 60,000 per IP address.
So, five front-end load balancers, with twenty IP addresses assigned to each, and a couple of spares to take over if one fails. That gives you what, six *million* concurrent connections? Your bandwidth issues/bills are going to GREATLY eclipse your serving capacity at that point.
Then it's just a matter of shoving cheap, non-redunant, commodity machines in a rack to handle the requests. Say, a bunch of low-power, tiny Epia-based machines all pulling from a central file server.
So, someone updates the RSS file on the file server. Each of the 5/10/100/however-many front-end servers access it once, at which point it goes into file cache. Then they all dish it out like crazy.
Yes, this is an expensive solution: But I like it. I like it because it puts the cost on the person that wants to distribute the RSS feed. Other solutions, like uploading it to NNTP servers, shifts the cost to nearly everyone BUT the provider of information.
steve
Language acquisition doesn't come naturally later on? I moved to another country for a few years, and became fluent in the language while there. And since I've been back, I've been picking up quite a bit of a few other languages just by reading a little bit here and there. I don't think that I'm in any way "gifted", I just have happened to pay some attention to it.
Perhaps you should give it a try, see if it's what you really want to do.
steve
So, you're telling me that the expense of moving and that dealing with the red tape would be a greater burden to you than staying here?
steve
Good lord, how I wish I had been born in Europe.
Why, aren't they allowing anybody in who isn't born there? Or are you saying that it's too late for you to change some beliefs you grew up with in America? Or is it too late for you to learn another language? What, exactly, is there that you just can't change now in your life?
steve
The rest of the world? You mean, like, Texas?
steve
Now, when the situation is reversed, English speakers think they have the right to behave in the same absurd way.
That's the problem with people in general: They want things cushy for themselves, even if it means a great inconvenience for a lot of other people. I've seen it in whites, latin-americans, blacks, americans, europeans, south-americans, asians, homosexuals, heterosexuals, religious people, athiests, rich, poor, educated, uneducated, skinny, fat, tall, short, and everyone in between. In fact, the person who can say "This sure is inconveniencing to me, but to change it would bother a lot of people even more" seem to be an extreme rarity these days.
steve
When people come to the USA, where the vastly predominant language is English, and they don't bother to learn English, then they're just lazy, and deserve whatever consequences befall them.
(When I moved to a foreign country for a couple of years, I learned quite a bit of the language before I even went - and the entire time I was there, I worked on my language skills and accent.)
Of course, that means that in the Orkut case, where it's predominantly Portugese, I think that the Americans can either (a) learn Portugese, or (b) deal with it. It's what I expect of others, it's what I expect of myself, it's what I expect of my fellow countrymen.
steve
Nowadays wedding photographers will use digital or even 35mm film and it's possible to get high quality prints that way
If I was going to pay a few thousand bucks, and the photographer showed up with a 35mm or digital, I'd personally beat him to a bloody pulp, and take the money back out of his wallet.
If they're going to charge that much and don't even show up with a medium-format camera, then chances are pretty good that they fall into the "I wanna be a big-time photog!" camp, not the truly professional camp.
steve
Uh....
Because that equipment doesn't come cheap. I bought a nice DV camcorder last year with the intention of doing wedding videography this year. Every time I quoted someone a price, the basic reaction was, "WTF?" And my quotes were known to be as much as half of other videographers listed in the yellow pages.
Are you trying to make back the cost of the camera in one shot or something? Let's say you blow $2,000 on the camera. How many weddings are you going to shoot with that if you're actually planning on being "in the business" - a hundred? That only adds $20 to the cost of the shoot. Bought a $4,000 computer to do the editing? That comes out to $40.
So, does the extra $60 for materials really make them jump, or am I missing something?
steve
Really. Especially "Wedding Photographers", who are often somebody with a 35mm camera who wants to believe that they're an "artist".
When I got married, I found an excellent photographer. He's actually an architectural photographer. He had so many requests for weddings, he hired an assistant just to shoot weddings.
Now, he doesn't want to have the hastle of keeping an expensive office just to make people feel good when they come in to order prints. And he doesn't want to have to pay a secretary to sit and take orders all day. And he doesn't want to deal with endless orders for reprints.
All he does is send out the assistant with a medium-format to shoot pictures, send out the film for developping, proofs, and an initial package of prints. He gives you the whole mess - including the negatives. Then he tells you the photo house he sends out to for prints, and lets you get whatever you want.
He told me that just by hiring the assitant (who actually does TERRIFIC) work, his income jumped up by $70,000 per year. Now, for a lot of people, just making$70,000 per year would be very welcome. For him, it's just a raise for sending someone else out to do the work. And he still charged us much less than any of the other bidders.
Here's where it gets really good: We wanted a 16x20 print to hang on the wall. We took it to the photo house he recommended, and had it printed. It was done at exactly the same place it would have been printed at had a "traditional" photographer done it for us. But it literally cost us less than one-fifth of what the "traditional" photographers wanted for their prints.
It's really just a racket. Photogs keeping their negatives is just a protectionist movement designed to keep them in business, it's a tradition going back to the inception of guilds and before. And to boot, a lot of "wedding photographers" are nothing more than someone who bought an SLR and want to think that they're big-time.
There are photographers who truly are artists, and whose art truly deserves recompense. But when someone shows up, spends an hour taking pictures of your $2,000 wedding dress, your $5,000 ring, your $5,000 reception, and you, I find it truly hard to accept that they themselves have created a piece of art, of which they should retain copyright (and profits) for the rest of eternity. You paid for everything, you did all of the planning and work, and it's your image. They showed up, called up the family members, and told you where to stand. You should retain the copyright.
Like so many other businesses ($100 chinese-made polyester wedding dresses selling for $1,000 or $50 worth of titanium selling for $500 because it's in a ring-shape), they're just jumping on the "Wedding Gravy Train".
steve
Ulysses Everett McGill: I don't know Delmar. The blind are reputed to possess sensitivities compensating for their lack of sight, even to the point of developing paranormal psychic powers. Now, clearly seeing into the future would fall into neatly into that category; its not so surprising then that an organism deprived of its earthly vision...
(O Brother, Where Art Thou?)
steve
Just to save themselves the minor pain of providing a decent user-interface for their domain registration.
Really. Despite the fact that they're 3 or 4 times more expensive than some of their competitors, a lot of people would still stay with them if trying to do business with them wasn't like trying to give an enema to a herd of feral cheetahs.
steve
Because the machines are clustered, there is no redundancy in most of them - one can fail, the others can take over for it. On the more critical machines, yes, there are redundant powers supplies.
steve
The article mentioned migrating from a 10-year old VAX machine to a dual Athlon. I'll bet that the dual Athlon is 4x faster, and cost 10x less.
steve
About a year ago, we switched data centers, and had to power down our rack of x86 machines running Linux. A couple of them had redundancy in hardware (power supplies, RAID arrays, etc.), but the majority of them, working as a load-balanced web farm, had no redundancy at all.
Out of the rack of machines, nearly all of them had been up for the full two years that they'd been in the data center. Of the few that hadn't been up the entire time, *one* had a power supply die, the others were shut down for hardware upgrades.
Now, a year later, all of the machines are still up and running. I really don't have any doubt that a fair number of them would have achieved 6-year uptimes, had they been left in place long enough.
steve
For the person who submitted the question: Why wouldn't it be possible?
For the
steve
Lets face it, if you haven't worked retail then you simply don't know what hell is. Customers are often devoid of communication skills, arrogant, flat out dumb or in such a god damn hurry that they just don't care about anyone or anything else.
Wow. It sounds like you're describing most retail employees, not customers.
steve
I got a laser printer shipped via UPS *during the big UPS strike*. It sat in a warehouse for quite some time, then was severely manhandled during transit. When it showed up, it looked like a sphere of soft, delapidated cardboard.
I opened up the box, the printer had been packed with expanding foam - and worked perfectly. It's been something like 8 years now, and the printer still works flawlessly.
When you send something delicate via UPS (or any other shipping company), you've just got to realize that it's going to be abused, and pack it for the worst-case situation.
steve
Wow. The PCI riser card came out, and apparently the DIMM came off of the card. I haven't used *every* rackmount case out there, but every single case I've ever used with a riser card had a way to solidly hold the riser card in place (metal bars screwed to the chassis). Furthermore, every rackmount case I've used has a way to solidly mount the PCI cards - nearly all are with screws, the few that aren't are still solid enough that they're NOT going to budge from even a really, REALLY good shaking/beating.
So, there's a riser card that isn't solidly connected, and a PCI card on it that isn't solidly expected, and you gave it to a shipping company? I wouldn't have paid you a dime on the damages, either.
I've had a very good number of rackmounts shipped via UPS ground and/or freight carrier. Never had a problem. All items were properly secured, and the machines were properly packaged. Did they get manhandled? You bet. Damaged boxes? Of course. Damage to the computers? Nope.
steve