Agreed, it's a totally different mentality.
Being an engineer in China is an entry level position, and by that I mean it's just a stepping stone. Management is the goal. In the US you'll find people who want to be engineers their whole lives. It's a source of pride. Not in China. If you're not in management by the time you're 35, there must be something wrong with you. Do just enough as an engineer to get by and spend your time trying to become a manager. But then once you become a manager, you spend ridiculous amounts of time keeping that position because of all the up-and-comers that want that job. (Both of my sisters-in-law tell stories of the stress they're under all the time.)
From what I see:
In the US, say you're an engineer and people respect you, say you have an MBA and people look at you like you don't have any _real_ skills.
In China, say you have an MBA and people respect you, say you're an engineer and they look at you like you don't have any _real_ skills.
"There must be a return on such a significant investment."
That return isn't necessarily monetary. If you major in literature because you really do appreciate the classics, you could still feel it's worthwhile, even though you will get zero monetary return.
My issue is the for-profit colleges and universities are turning a higher education into very expensive job training. Churn out the cogs for companies and charge the student (directly or indirectly) throw the nose for it.
do you think Apple fanboys get tennis elbow from all the circle jerking?
I was at the gym the other day and felt embarrassed that I was wearing a pair of Apple earbuds (they were free). "These aren't mine! I'm not a douchebag I swear!"
Muon is a front-end for apt. It looks pretty. However there is a very popular and good front-end for apt called Synaptic. It is installed by default in most Ubuntu installations. So while there is a popular and well supported package management tool that is also stable, there are some up-coming contenders for KDE. Competition has always been good for Linux, and it is part of what makes Linux continue to be awesome in spite of its lack of resources.
NIH isn't competition.
Package management in general is not like a paint program. Good package management is an open research question, as it is so difficult to balance a truly time-traveling OS instance that doesn't suffer from OS rot, security vulnerabilities, or user unfriendliness. Its not so simple that some one can just git 'er done as you seem to suggest. So no, its very hard to move past it. Android has been suffering from security vulnerabilities, Apple has an active committee that must review (and censor) applications, and despite all this there are still security vulnerabilities, fragmentation, and OS rot (you just throw the device out in 1.5-2 years).
I say again. Bullpucky! 1) git 'er done. - I never said this. 2) hard to move past - Nope. I don't believe this. 3) open research project. Where is real research being done in this area? What I see are people doing the same thing over and over again, with either a different toolkit or rearranging buttons on the GUI version or renaming parameters in the cmdline version.
OS X on the other hand has no package management, and no, their.app format is a poor replacement. Try uninstalling "anti-virus" software, Microsoft Office, or any other reasonably complex program. They all have their own uninstaller scripts with root privilege and just mow over the machine, so cross your fingers and pray basically.
Don't care. Not pertinent to this discussion.
Honestly, you should probably just stick with one of the big distros like Ubuntu or RHEL, they are very good, have good package management, and it sounds like you don't really want to get involved in some of these more subtle (but important!) details. Thats fine, there is a distro for you, just go use it and stop complaining about what is really not a problem.
Wow. someone's kinda high and mighty. Very good?!? Hahaha. NOT! yum is the worst package manager I've used. (MHO). synaptic is fairly good though. important subtle details? I usually hear arguments like 'triggers are stupid' or 'RPM includes too much!' or 'mmap 256K blocks vs 128K blocks' or rollback support.
'it sounds like'? Wow, you gleaned all that from such a short post?
You have your opinion and I have mine. I consider it a real problem. I have friends who do packaging and they agree with me, so I know I'm not alone.
Good lord! Enough with package managers/packaging systems/new frontends.. They're like paint programs in Linux. 15 half-assed ones but not one single great one, because every developer with NIH feels like he has to create another one because 'nobody else has these features.' ENOUGH ALREADY! at this point, it has nothing to do with choice and everything to do with developer ego and NIH.
It's just a frigging package manager/frontend/system. Can we get past this already?!?!?!?!
Seriously, this is why Vista's failure didn't hurt Microsoft. Linux devs are too busy reinventing the wheel every 6 months. Devs will get 80% there and then stop and then all the other devs decide they know a better way to do it, and they get (if they're lucky) 80% there and stop. rinse and repeat.
And don't give me that "If you don't like it, you don't have to use it." Now instead of 15 half-assed ones, we have 16 half-assed ones. Kubuntu will use it, no one else will, and users have to learn yet another interface.
"So anybody at all can be an engineer if they just decide so?
Yes! exactl "
You're joking right? That's like saying "I'm a rockstar" I may have decided it and I have the mentality of a rockstar, but unless that audience is screaming my name when I step on the stage, guess what?
You're an engineer when you get paid to do engineering.
I am an electrical engineer. I do actual engineering. When I was ripping apart computers and writing software in assembly to drive my own little circuits in the early 90s I was a teenager with a definite passion for tinkering. But by no means was I an engineer..
I went through 5 years of hellish classes, labs, sleepless nights, projects, to get the degree of electrical engineering. Was I an engineer then? No, I was someone who had an engineering degree.
I got a job doing design, build, test, etc, was I an engineer then? Yes.
I've been doing actual engineering for over 10 years now. Do _NOT_ think for one second that some 16 year old who has a passion for tinkering with stuff in his room is an engineer. He may be one day when he's older, but not today.
When I took apart my first machine and put it back together?
-- no, any idiot with a screw driver can take apart and put back together a machine.
When I designed my first circuit, programmed my first code?
-- no, any idiot with a radio shack kit can do that.
-- no, any idiot with a 'programming for dummies' can do that.
When I sold my first design, setup and registered my own business?
-- no, any idiot can register a business
This is the mentality that is not helpful.
"I like to build stuff. - Oh you must be an engineer"
"I like to write software - Oh you must be a programmer"
"I like to take pictures - Oh you must be a photographer"
"I like to cut open dead frogs - Oh you must be a surgeon"
You do not get to call yourself whatever you like because you have a 'passion' about something.
I also know plenty of engineers who didn't major in engineering, and some of them are indeed good. Are they 'engineers'? Yes. they are. Is the formal education needed? No, it isn't. Does it help? It can.
Being an engineer is _not_ a mentality and passion is absolutely _not_ needed. If often makes you a better engineer, sure, but that's true a lot of the time about anything. Having the tinker and build mentality helps, definitely, but it is not required.
I know electrical and mechanical engineer who have _no_ drive or passion about their job and they are quite good at it. And they are most certainly engineers.
While I do use KDE4 daily, (I build from svn at least once a week, and submit bug reports), I would not call it extremely responsive. For example, clicking to the K to bring up the menu, takes over a second. Then clicking on any of the menu items to bringup the submenu takes about one second, every time.
I run a 1.6G amd turion64 x2 with 1GB of RAM. I have keyboard lag ALL THE TIME. What really sucks though is if my comp is busy, keystrokes get DROPPED.
Uh. no. I was volunteering at the Red Cross during Katrina and kept up closely with what was going on. While there is definitely blame to placed on the mayor and governor (and those that decided to ride out the storm because every other storm hadn't been a problem), FEMA royally screwed the pooch on Katrina. They did not do their typical job. They dropped the ball an a huge scale. The feds should be smacked upside the head for incompetency.
How do you know what I've read? Do you know me? You assume that because I think this is a crap standard and this shit MS is pulling is also crap that I've fallen for anti-OOXML propoganda? That anyone who's not pro-OOXML is only hearing one side of the story?
In addition to reading pro-OOXML and neutral articles, I've read sections of OOXML. It's complex garbage. Have you looked at it or are you just going off what other people say?
I have to read and write standards and specifications and deal with others doing the same on a regular basis. It's part of my job (electrical engineer) so I have an idea of things. OOXML (and this quick push through ISO) are crap.
DIS: Draft International Standard. The last step before a fast-track document is approved as an International Standard. Note: The fast-track process is a different process than the normal development process. DIS documents are balloted and approved at the TC-level. (bolding is mine)
Mr. Durusau,
I'm sorry but I have no idea how you can possibly believe what you wrote.
I've followed this fairly closely and am EXTREMELY ANGRY at the crap MS has pulled trying to force this through!
Microsoft has been talking out both sides of its mouth for the last 15 YEARS and up until about 6 months ago has shown no intent of changing their ways and you think that they have because they honestly want interoperability. !?!?! There is a reason almost noone who's done business with MS trusts them, and it ain't jealousy.
You need to read 'The Scorpion and the Frog'. But MS will not sting you until you've carried them across the river (voted YES on dis29500).
They might be hearing you but they are NOT listening. They'll nod their heads and look like they're interested in what you're saying, but if (God forbid) this bullshit format gets accepted as an ISO standard, they will go back to their old way of doing things. Go peek at the anti-trust transcripts.
They threw some table scraps on the floor and you think they're welcoming you to the table and are going to treat you like an equal. Seriously? Seriously!?!?!
If they want OOXML to be an ISO spec, they need to go through the normal route. No fast track!
Most of the replies to your post seem to be "Why bother?"
However I completely understand and do the same thing myself. I do as much as possible in ODF and ogg theora, even at work. And then I tell people what I'm doing. Most don't get it. However a few do and even appreciate the idea (especially other Linux/*BSD users). You have to build awareness one step at a time.
So please keep it up and continue encouraging others! If we don't, who will?
Which terrorists celebrated when the Democrats won in '06? Did some people labeled as 'terrorists' support the democrats, yes very probably, but that's a fairly broad brush. Some support Bush's policies, so the fact that Bush has remained in office could be construed as 'Bush's policies support terrorism'.
2) Please point to references that support your position that "...they are also supportive of the democrats withdrawl..."
3) I'm not sure I agree with the premise that a withdrawl is a victory for the terrorists. Most of what the US is fighting are Iraqi nationalists who hate the western foreign presence.
*Disclosure, I'm not a democrat. I'm an independent from a long line of Republicans so this is not a partisan thing.
Doesn't it bother anyone that one company, in this case Microsoft, is trying to control absolutely EVERYTHING?
Desktops, consumer electronics, car electronics, medical equipment. Where the hell does it end? When MS controls everything and has a GDP larger than a lot of first world countries? Does the B&M Gates Foundation start withholding aid to poor countries if they don't tow the line?
1) How about integrated browsing of a windows network? 2) Being able to configure an application from within w/o having to use gconf-editor. (Think file association inside a gnome application, specifically Evolution.)
My take on this is Redhat doesn't like that Novell got all the press and kudos for Xgl and is trying to get mindshare back.
Reasons for my viewpoint:
1) I prefer Redhat over Suse. (This isn't an ego post about me, so hear me out.) I use both, but of the two I like Redhat better. I've had bad luck with Suse and Novell seems to be having trouble turning into an opensource/Linux company. We use Groupwise at work and evolution and Suse and have problems. So given a choice I'll take Redhat since I've had good luck with them. However, after reading about Novell's Xgl contributions and checking them out, my impressions of Novell have greatly improved. I'm definitely much more open minded now about them than before. Redhat has always had the reputation for commercial distros that give back to the community. Now with Novell's contributions, Redhat has contribution competition (if that makes any sense.) They are no longer THE company when it comes to good charma in the community. Another company has given back a HUGE contribution and a VERY visible one at that. Now if a person who has stated his biad towards Redhat has now given second thoughts to Novell, what is a person who has no bias or preference either way likely to think.
2. They're not contributing to Xgl, but rather they came up with their own way and specifically stated is is different than Xgl.
3. Make specific points about doing it 'upstream', which resurrects the flame wars on the xorg mailing list about in-house vs inet cvs development.
4. Specifically mention how their approach is better than Novell's and how Novell's 'doesn't sit well with a lot of people.'
My humble opinion. Don't get me wrong, I still like Redhat but in this case I think this is more for PR good than community good.
Slashdot Mirror
Agreed, it's a totally different mentality.
Being an engineer in China is an entry level position, and by that I mean it's just a stepping stone. Management is the goal. In the US you'll find people who want to be engineers their whole lives. It's a source of pride. Not in China. If you're not in management by the time you're 35, there must be something wrong with you. Do just enough as an engineer to get by and spend your time trying to become a manager. But then once you become a manager, you spend ridiculous amounts of time keeping that position because of all the up-and-comers that want that job. (Both of my sisters-in-law tell stories of the stress they're under all the time.)
From what I see:
In the US, say you're an engineer and people respect you, say you have an MBA and people look at you like you don't have any _real_ skills.
In China, say you have an MBA and people respect you, say you're an engineer and they look at you like you don't have any _real_ skills.
Examples on both sides.
A counter example; HP.
It used to be run by the engineers. Then 'proper' management took over. Now look at it.
WTF are you talking about? China's one-child-only policy is most certainly not voluntary. What hole did you pull this mis-information out of?
"There must be a return on such a significant investment."
That return isn't necessarily monetary. If you major in literature because you really do appreciate the classics, you could still feel it's worthwhile, even though you will get zero monetary return.
My issue is the for-profit colleges and universities are turning a higher education into very expensive job training. Churn out the cogs for companies and charge the student (directly or indirectly) throw the nose for it.
do you think Apple fanboys get tennis elbow from all the circle jerking?
I was at the gym the other day and felt embarrassed that I was wearing a pair of Apple earbuds (they were free). "These aren't mine! I'm not a douchebag I swear!"
Bullpucky!
Muon is a front-end for apt. It looks pretty. However there is a very popular and good front-end for apt called Synaptic. It is installed by default in most Ubuntu installations. So while there is a popular and well supported package management tool that is also stable, there are some up-coming contenders for KDE. Competition has always been good for Linux, and it is part of what makes Linux continue to be awesome in spite of its lack of resources.
NIH isn't competition.
Package management in general is not like a paint program. Good package management is an open research question, as it is so difficult to balance a truly time-traveling OS instance that doesn't suffer from OS rot, security vulnerabilities, or user unfriendliness. Its not so simple that some one can just git 'er done as you seem to suggest. So no, its very hard to move past it. Android has been suffering from security vulnerabilities, Apple has an active committee that must review (and censor) applications, and despite all this there are still security vulnerabilities, fragmentation, and OS rot (you just throw the device out in 1.5-2 years).
I say again. Bullpucky!
1) git 'er done. - I never said this.
2) hard to move past - Nope. I don't believe this.
3) open research project. Where is real research being done in this area? What I see are people doing the same thing over and over again, with either a different toolkit or rearranging buttons on the GUI version or renaming parameters in the cmdline version.
OS X on the other hand has no package management, and no, their .app format is a poor replacement. Try uninstalling "anti-virus" software, Microsoft Office, or any other reasonably complex program. They all have their own uninstaller scripts with root privilege and just mow over the machine, so cross your fingers and pray basically.
Don't care. Not pertinent to this discussion.
Honestly, you should probably just stick with one of the big distros like Ubuntu or RHEL, they are very good, have good package management, and it sounds like you don't really want to get involved in some of these more subtle (but important!) details. Thats fine, there is a distro for you, just go use it and stop complaining about what is really not a problem.
Wow. someone's kinda high and mighty.
Very good?!? Hahaha. NOT! yum is the worst package manager I've used. (MHO). synaptic is fairly good though.
important subtle details? I usually hear arguments like 'triggers are stupid' or 'RPM includes too much!' or 'mmap 256K blocks vs 128K blocks' or rollback support.
'it sounds like'? Wow, you gleaned all that from such a short post?
You have your opinion and I have mine.
I consider it a real problem. I have friends who do packaging and they agree with me, so I know I'm not alone.
Good lord! Enough with package managers/packaging systems/new frontends.. They're like paint programs in Linux. 15 half-assed ones but not one single great one, because every developer with NIH feels like he has to create another one because 'nobody else has these features.' ENOUGH ALREADY! at this point, it has nothing to do with choice and everything to do with developer ego and NIH.
It's just a frigging package manager/frontend/system. Can we get past this already?!?!?!?!
Seriously, this is why Vista's failure didn't hurt Microsoft. Linux devs are too busy reinventing the wheel every 6 months. Devs will get 80% there and then stop and then all the other devs decide they know a better way to do it, and they get (if they're lucky) 80% there and stop. rinse and repeat.
And don't give me that "If you don't like it, you don't have to use it." Now instead of 15 half-assed ones, we have 16 half-assed ones. Kubuntu will use it, no one else will, and users have to learn yet another interface.
Ugh, I need a drink.
not 1000 exabytes
I'm still waiting for the enlightenment from above. Please elaborate on why it's a myth.
It pains me to see some idiot sales man then write "Sales Engineer" on their business card. It is an assault on the name of the profession.
Amen brother.
Maybe we should shift the coolness of 'engineer' to 'officer' to share the pain with the business folks.
Executive Sales Officer
Chief Marketing Officer
"So anybody at all can be an engineer if they just decide so?
Yes! exactl
"
You're joking right?
That's like saying "I'm a rockstar" I may have decided it and I have the mentality of a rockstar, but
unless that audience is screaming my name when I step on the stage, guess what?
You're an engineer when you get paid to do engineering.
I am an electrical engineer. I do actual engineering.
When I was ripping apart computers and writing software in assembly to drive my own little circuits in the early 90s I was a teenager with a definite passion for tinkering. But by no means was I an engineer..
I went through 5 years of hellish classes, labs, sleepless nights, projects, to get the degree of electrical engineering. Was I an engineer then? No, I was someone who had an engineering degree.
I got a job doing design, build, test, etc, was I an engineer then? Yes.
I've been doing actual engineering for over 10 years now. Do _NOT_ think for one second that some 16 year old who has a passion for tinkering with stuff in his room is an engineer. He may be one day when he's older, but not today.
When I took apart my first machine and put it back together?
-- no, any idiot with a screw driver can take apart and put back together a machine.
When I designed my first circuit, programmed my first code?
-- no, any idiot with a radio shack kit can do that.
-- no, any idiot with a 'programming for dummies' can do that.
When I sold my first design, setup and registered my own business?
-- no, any idiot can register a business
This is the mentality that is not helpful.
"I like to build stuff. - Oh you must be an engineer"
"I like to write software - Oh you must be a programmer"
"I like to take pictures - Oh you must be a photographer"
"I like to cut open dead frogs - Oh you must be a surgeon"
You do not get to call yourself whatever you like because you have a 'passion' about something.
I also know plenty of engineers who didn't major in engineering, and some of them are indeed good. Are they 'engineers'? Yes. they are. Is the formal education needed? No, it isn't. Does it help? It can.
Being an engineer is _not_ a mentality and passion is absolutely _not_ needed. If often makes you a better engineer, sure, but that's true a lot of the time about anything.
Having the tinker and build mentality helps, definitely, but it is not required.
I know electrical and mechanical engineer who have _no_ drive or passion about their job and they are quite good at it. And they are most certainly engineers.
While I do use KDE4 daily, (I build from svn at least once a week, and submit bug reports), I would not call it extremely responsive. For example, clicking to the K to bring up the menu, takes over a second. Then clicking on any of the menu items to bringup the submenu takes about one second, every time.
NEVER go full retard!
I run a 1.6G amd turion64 x2 with 1GB of RAM. I have keyboard lag ALL THE TIME. What really sucks though is if my comp is busy, keystrokes get DROPPED.
Uh. no. I was volunteering at the Red Cross during Katrina and kept up closely with what was going on. While there is definitely blame to placed on the mayor and governor (and those that decided to ride out the storm because every other storm hadn't been a problem), FEMA royally screwed the pooch on Katrina. They did not do their typical job. They dropped the ball an a huge scale. The feds should be smacked upside the head for incompetency.
How do you know what I've read? Do you know me? You assume that because I think this is a crap standard and this shit MS is pulling is also crap that I've fallen for anti-OOXML propoganda? That anyone who's not pro-OOXML is only hearing one side of the story?
In addition to reading pro-OOXML and neutral articles, I've read sections of OOXML. It's complex garbage. Have you looked at it or are you just going off what other people say?
I have to read and write standards and specifications and deal with others doing the same on a regular basis. It's part of my job (electrical engineer) so I have an idea of things. OOXML (and this quick push through ISO) are crap.
No, it's not.
DIS: Draft International Standard. The last step before a fast-track document is approved as an International Standard. Note: The fast-track process is a different process than the normal development process. DIS documents are balloted and approved at the TC-level.
(bolding is mine)
per ISO
Mr. Durusau,
I'm sorry but I have no idea how you can possibly believe what you wrote.
I've followed this fairly closely and am EXTREMELY ANGRY at the crap MS has pulled trying to force this through!
Microsoft has been talking out both sides of its mouth for the last 15 YEARS and up until about 6 months ago has shown no intent of changing their ways and you think that they have because they honestly want interoperability. !?!?! There is a reason almost noone who's done business with MS trusts them, and it ain't jealousy.
You need to read 'The Scorpion and the Frog'. But MS will not sting you until you've carried them across the river (voted YES on dis29500).
They might be hearing you but they are NOT listening. They'll nod their heads and look like they're interested in what you're saying, but if (God forbid) this bullshit format gets accepted as an ISO standard, they will go back to their old way of doing things. Go peek at the anti-trust transcripts.
They threw some table scraps on the floor and you think they're welcoming you to the table and are going to treat you like an equal. Seriously? Seriously!?!?!
If they want OOXML to be an ISO spec, they need to go through the normal route. No fast track!
Most of the replies to your post seem to be "Why bother?"
However I completely understand and do the same thing myself. I do as much as possible in ODF and ogg theora, even at work. And then I tell people what I'm doing. Most don't get it. However a few do and even appreciate the idea (especially other Linux/*BSD users). You have to build awareness one step at a time.
So please keep it up and continue encouraging others! If we don't, who will?
Um, no.
Which terrorists celebrated when the Democrats won in '06? Did some people labeled as 'terrorists' support the democrats, yes very probably, but that's a fairly broad brush. Some support Bush's policies, so the fact that Bush has remained in office could be construed as 'Bush's policies support terrorism'.
2) Please point to references that support your position that "...they are also supportive of the democrats withdrawl..."
3) I'm not sure I agree with the premise that a withdrawl is a victory for the terrorists. Most of what the US is fighting are Iraqi nationalists who hate the western foreign presence.
*Disclosure, I'm not a democrat. I'm an independent from a long line of Republicans so this is not a partisan thing.
Let me say "Thank you Washington"
I read that post and the comments. What are you talking about? I didn't see one person who thought odf was 'the world and nothing else exists.'
You are a troll.
Doesn't it bother anyone that one company, in this case Microsoft, is trying to control absolutely EVERYTHING?
Desktops, consumer electronics, car electronics, medical equipment. Where the hell does it end? When MS controls everything and has a GDP larger than a lot of first world countries? Does the B&M Gates Foundation start withholding aid to poor countries if they don't tow the line?
1) How about integrated browsing of a windows network?
2) Being able to configure an application from within w/o having to use gconf-editor. (Think file association inside a gnome application, specifically Evolution.)
My take on this is Redhat doesn't like that Novell got all the press and kudos for Xgl and is trying to get mindshare back.
Reasons for my viewpoint:
1) I prefer Redhat over Suse. (This isn't an ego post about me, so hear me out.) I use both, but of the two I like Redhat better. I've had bad luck with Suse and Novell seems to be having trouble turning into an opensource/Linux company. We use Groupwise at work and evolution and Suse and have problems. So given a choice I'll take Redhat since I've had good luck with them. However, after reading about Novell's Xgl contributions and checking them out, my impressions of Novell have greatly improved. I'm definitely much more open minded now about them than before. Redhat has always had the reputation for commercial distros that give back to the community. Now with Novell's contributions, Redhat has contribution competition (if that makes any sense.) They are no longer THE company when it comes to good charma in the community. Another company has given back a HUGE contribution and a VERY visible one at that. Now if a person who has stated his biad towards Redhat has now given second thoughts to Novell, what is a person who has no bias or preference either way likely to think.
2. They're not contributing to Xgl, but rather they came up with their own way and specifically stated is is different than Xgl.
3. Make specific points about doing it 'upstream', which resurrects the flame wars on the xorg mailing list about in-house vs inet cvs development.
4. Specifically mention how their approach is better than Novell's and how Novell's 'doesn't sit well with a lot of people.'
My humble opinion. Don't get me wrong, I still like Redhat but in this case I think this is more for PR good than community good.