It's all good not to search for alternatives, but to ignore NetBeans completely is pretty funny to me when your'e working with IDE development.
Who said I was a developer? I'm the sysadmin. The only code I do is in PHP; how can NetBeans be of any use to me? It can be all the IDE anyone claims it to be, but it's just a Java IDE, and that's useless to *me* for what *I* do, which is the point you missed.
The best way to be right, is never to look at facts or other alternatives..
I have tried plenty of PHP alternatives -- just not NetBeans. Should I be trying NetBeans for PHP development?
I just find it really odd that you don't know anything about a product that is a competitor, in fact the only open source tools platform competitor... yet you come here and say why the competition sucks?
I didn't say the competition sucked, and that's not what I was implying either. I said that Eclipse suits *my* needs to a degree where I don't need to look elsewhere.
The work I do for the Eclipse Foundation is running the servers and hacking a bit of PHP code once in a while. I don't actually work *on* Eclipse itself, so I have no need to try competing products. It would be nice if I had the time to do so, as it would add to my culture, but I don't really have the time (or the interest).
You don't even know that Netbeans is a tools platform like Eclipse is and Netbeans has been a tools platform for a lot longer.
Sorry, my ignorance. I used Eclipse (well, IBM's WSAD) for J2EE development before actually being hired by the Foundation, but I had never even heard of NetBeans before working for the Foundation.
I don't know how you can even take yourself seriously.
I'm not quite sure what prompted you to even say this.
Not me. Without reading TFA, this last part of the Slashdot post got to me:
IDE Wars: Has NetBeans 4.1 Eclipsed Eclipse?
I can use Eclipse as an IDE for PHP, Java and C (and pehaps even others). I don't think NetBeans can match or surpass this functionality, so to me, Eclipse is a far superior IDE.
To be honest with you, I never even tried NetBeans. I don't think NetBeans has "plugins" like Eclipse does, so I doubt you can do anything other than Java on it.
And yes, I work for the Eclipse Foundation, so I'm obviously biased. But all my PHP and Java coding is done on Eclipse. I was an Eclipse user long before I started working for Eclipse, so I wasn't brainwashed by my boss =)
It's Eclipse's versatility that makes me like it enough to not search for or try alternatives.
Microsoft has been backpedalling from MDI for a couple of years; the new versions of office open multiple windows when you open multiple documents. I find this quite irritating. I'm sure they did it because of the taskbar's collapse similar items thing, but I'd rather have MDI.
I thought it was to improve reliability: when you had 6 documents open in Word, and because Word is so flaky, one rogue document could crash them all. Same with IE: One browser crash and everything closes.
Very insightful, thanks. I had originally wrote about the store analogy in my post, but I removed that part because a store is a public location as opposed to your computer running software. But I hadn't thought of the whole credit-card issue.
At first I was tempted to do like most: yell out that this was a privacy issue. Microsoft has no right knowing what software I'm using! But there are so many instances where I could claim that my privacy is invaded that I'm afraid I'm becoming more accepting of it.
The latest of these instances occurred when I fired up Half Life 2 last night. "Logging on to Steam as...". So Steam/Valve know each time I play half-life. Interesting stats for them.
Every time I browse a web page, I'm telling everyone I use Firefox/1.0.3 on x64 Linux. Sure, I could hack my user agent string, but really. Most people don't, right? So now the slashdot editors know what I run, what my IP address is,...
I only boot to Windows to play games like Half-Life, and it bothers me that Microsoft would know about everything I'm running on that Windows box, but how else are they to fix issues if they don't know what I'm running and what I was doing when it crashed? When do we draw the line between normal computer use and invasion of privacy?
Actually, what would be even better is to configure his web server to report itself as IIS in the headers it returns. That's the only real way to know what a web server is running
I was simply offering some insight regarding this comment. Whether or not the Spiders check the TCP stack is beyond the point I was getting at.
FWIW, Netcraft seem to look at the TCP signature, so I don't think it's far fetched to assume it could be implemented in MSN's spiders.
I read an article on Netcraft once that explained that the TCP signatures also vary from one TCP stack to the next, allowing you to identify a Linux box and a Windows box, regardless of the web server software.
Too lazy to dig up the article, but it was an interesting read.
Thanks. I learned a lot this weekend. Feel free to correct any of my learnings, summarized here:
1. RAID-1 has faster write access than RAID-5.
2. If your system doesn't have at least one fan per disk, you're cooling it wrong. Claiming that one fan per disk is inefficient is plain wrong.
3. One 120mm fan consumes more energy than three 80mm fans.
4. For every Google article that sais Yes, there is a Google article that sais No.
I guess I have plenty of work to do on the servers at work monday morning, because not one is configured with RAID-1 or one 80mm fan per disk, yet they're plenty fast and reliable. Hell, not one has a fan on the CPU! Maybe I should add one of those too?
http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/pseries/har dw are/entry/550_specs.html http://www-1.ibm.com/ser vers/eserver/xseries/x346. html http://www.hp.com/products1/servers/integrit y/entr y_level/rx2600/index.html
You keep building your systems with RAID-1 and one 80mm fan per hard drive if that's what works for you. You're the expert.
Thanks for taking the time to transfer your knowledge. I am forever greatful.
You still haven't provided a shred of evidence to back-up your hard-to-believe claims
Are you in for a treat:
Of my original top-5's, you argued with these:
RAID-5 is faster for writes than RAID-1
"As one could suspect, RAID 1 offers very little in terms of performance. "
http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=14 91&p=3
"RAID 5 arrays are said to provide a balance between RAID 0 and RAID 1 configurations."
http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=14 91&p=4
My claim is true and verifiable. AnandTech is a reputable website. If I recall correctly, you didn't seem to agree with this, yet you didn't back up *your* claim.
One fan per drive seems inefficient, and it will increase the power consumption of the box as a whole - not including the wasted space.
In my hand is a typical 80mm fan. 12V, 0.14A. 0.14 A x 3 fans = 0.42A @ 14V DC.
So are 3 fans per hard disk inefficient? This is subjective, I think so, you think not. Will they increase the power consumption of the box? Yes. Will they waste space? Yes. You then rebutted: even a dozen of them in one box would be nothing to worry about. And I agree. It doesn't stop the fact that it is a power increase. Care to disagree some more? Aw come on!
All these extra fans brings us back to the age of the noisy PC. So passé.
This is my subjective opionion. You can have a quiet PC while still maintaining proper cooling (as opposed to running a PC without any fans, as you suggest). A quick search on Quiet PC backs this up.
It's not the low temp of the drives that matters, it's air circulation + consistent temp.
- A quick search on google for "cause of disk failure" reveals that heat is practically never* a cause in a drive's death, so be it low or high temps, it doesn't appear to really matter. However, changes in temperature (which is opposite of my claim, consistent temperature) cause materials to expand and contract (do I need to prove this for you too?). Because disks are designed to compensate for this (http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op/mediaMaterials.html), one could intelligently conclude that it's not the operating temperature that is an issue (as long as it's operating within spec), it's the change in temperature that matters. Argue away with common sense, pal!
... and you argued about this:
"what needs cooling, it's the inside of the disk, where the platters spin."
In what way is this false? Can you say "No, the inside of the disk does not need to be cooled"?
"The smaller platters cause less air friction and therefore reduce the amount of heat generated by the drive"
http://www.pctechguide.com/04disks_Performance.htm
But hey, I guess Hitachi are "armchair experts" like me, huh?
You said: because if the friction from air generated significant heat, hard drive manufacturers would have designed hard drives with the platters in an air-tight vaccume chamber Perhaps because the heads wouldn't float? A plane could fly much faster if it weren't for the friction with the air, but it couldn't fly without the friction of the air. Perfect Catch-22.
So far, everything I've said makes sense. Everything. However:
They have fully sealed hard drives...
Who the hell is "They?". You expect "evidence" to "back up claims" from other people, yet you blurt out some pretty good fiction. Drives are not fully sealed, they have an air filter to allow for pressure differences
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/hard-disk5.htm
for special-purposes, and they are filled with inert gas in-place of air.
What special purposes? What gas? Are you referring to Sputtering: is a physical vapor deposition (PVD) process used to apply extremely thin films of one material onto another? I
If the PCB needed to be cooled to any extent, don't you think manufacturers would... a) place the pcb on top of the drive, not below? b) install heatsinks on the heat-producing chips?
> Second, the platters aren't doing anything but spinning through air
Spinning through air creates a *lot* of friction. The platters spinning at 7,200 RPM have a linear velocity of 1400 in/sec, org just shy of 80 mph. 10,000 RPM drives spin at about 111 mph. Think slick platters spinning through air don't generate heat? You're misinformed.
Because the platters are enclosed in a small space, the hear has nowhere to escape but by conductivity -- by heating the rest of the casing.
Don't take my word for it, just Google the words: hard disk platter temperature and read-up a bit. Or buy the latest "Upgrading and Repairing PC's" book. Good information in there too.
> Saying that fans are annoying so you shouldn't try to cool your hard drives is rather ignorant.
I never said that, you did. I said one fan per hard drive is inefficient, and loud.
In any case, we could beat this to death, but we won't. I've read, studied and work in this field. If you did, you would have a better understanding.
> Buying 2 extra drives so you can do RAID-5 sounds a lot less effecient.
You don't need to buy two extra disks to do RAID. You can do RAID-1 and RAID-5 with only three disks. Software RAID is done on a partition-basis. See my other post about this elsewhere in this thread.
> Since when? Did the laws of physics change on me? Since forever. RAID-1 writes the same information on two disks, whereas RAID-5 writes the info once across stripes. Besides, RAID-2 is commonly only used with two disks, whereas RAID-5 can be spread across up to 32 disks and more, depending on the controller.
> Ineffecient how? Drives no not need an 80mm fan blowing on the PCB. The PCB is not what needs cooling, it's the inside of the disk, where the platters spin.
>just try running your PC with no fans, and see how annoying that is... Wow, smart answer. Truly insightful.
> No, it IS the low temp that matters
Run your drives at -50 degrees, see how the low temp helps.
Drive 0: 5 GB OS (raid 1 member 1), the rest data (raid 5 member 1) Drive 1: 5 GB OS (raid 1 member 1), the rest data (raid 5 member 2) Drive 2: 5 GB (swap, logs, temp, whatever), the rest data (raid 5 member 3)
RAID-5 does not require 5 physical disks. Only three as a minumum. As an added bonus, reads on a RAID-5 can take advantage of all three (or more) disks.
Actually, the main connection to the rest of the college network is locked in a small cabinet. But myself and other profs have requested some way of disconnecting from the main net for just this purpose. Perhaps a software solution could work for this too.
Other than that, having the students shut off their monitor works pretty good when you need to get something through.
1. Running 2 drives as RAID-1 with a spare souunds less efficient than just running RAID-1 for the OS partition and RAID-5 for the data. RAID-5 is faster for writes than RAID-1, but RAID-1 offers protection for the boot OS
2. One fan per drive seems inefficient, and it will increase the power consumption of the box as a whole - not including the wasted space.
3. Mounting a large fan with one single bracket would make the fam vibrate and not be mounted in a sturdy fashion
4. The title doesn't include the cost of the fans. If he has three drives, three fans, three brackets, we're looking at about $20
5. All these extra fans brings us back to the age of the noisy PC. So passé.
My suggestion? A good Antec case with proper ventilation holes at the front and a 120mm fan at the rear. If you have three or more drives, add an 80mm fan at the front, blowing air on the drives in the same direction the air is pulled in from the 120mm. It's not the low temp of the drives that matters, it's air circulation + consistent temp.
As a part-time prof in a post-secondary institution, I have seen the sharp decline in classroom interest in the last 10 years, since the advent of Inernet, IRC, IM, and now Flash games and online Poker. It's increasingly difficult to teach class in a room full of computers due to all the distractions, lack of discipline and overall lack of motivation. Although these students are 18 to 22 years old, all they want to do is play games, chat and surf "rate my body"-type sites.
Even when you explain to them that the stuff they're learning could land them a good paying job, they can't seem to relate, because most still live at home with their parents.
Slashdot Mirror
It's all good not to search for alternatives, but to ignore NetBeans completely is pretty funny to me when your'e working with IDE development.
Who said I was a developer? I'm the sysadmin. The only code I do is in PHP; how can NetBeans be of any use to me? It can be all the IDE anyone claims it to be, but it's just a Java IDE, and that's useless to *me* for what *I* do, which is the point you missed.
The best way to be right, is never to look at facts or other alternatives..
I have tried plenty of PHP alternatives -- just not NetBeans. Should I be trying NetBeans for PHP development?
Here is the free plugin I use:
http://phpeclipse.de/
I just find it really odd that you don't know anything about a product that is a competitor, in fact the only open source tools platform competitor... yet you come here and say why the competition sucks?
I didn't say the competition sucked, and that's not what I was implying either. I said that Eclipse suits *my* needs to a degree where I don't need to look elsewhere.
The work I do for the Eclipse Foundation is running the servers and hacking a bit of PHP code once in a while. I don't actually work *on* Eclipse itself, so I have no need to try competing products. It would be nice if I had the time to do so, as it would add to my culture, but I don't really have the time (or the interest).
You don't even know that Netbeans is a tools platform like Eclipse is and Netbeans has been a tools platform for a lot longer.
Sorry, my ignorance. I used Eclipse (well, IBM's WSAD) for J2EE development before actually being hired by the Foundation, but I had never even heard of NetBeans before working for the Foundation.
I don't know how you can even take yourself seriously.
I'm not quite sure what prompted you to even say this.
Not me. Without reading TFA, this last part of the Slashdot post got to me:
IDE Wars: Has NetBeans 4.1 Eclipsed Eclipse?
I can use Eclipse as an IDE for PHP, Java and C (and pehaps even others). I don't think NetBeans can match or surpass this functionality, so to me, Eclipse is a far superior IDE.
To be honest with you, I never even tried NetBeans. I don't think NetBeans has "plugins" like Eclipse does, so I doubt you can do anything other than Java on it.
And yes, I work for the Eclipse Foundation, so I'm obviously biased. But all my PHP and Java coding is done on Eclipse. I was an Eclipse user long before I started working for Eclipse, so I wasn't brainwashed by my boss =)
It's Eclipse's versatility that makes me like it enough to not search for or try alternatives.
That's precisely why it hasn't Eclipsed Eclipse.
Actually, you don't have to wait. Just pull the latest milestone or nightly build from this page:
e x.php
http://download.eclipse.org/eclipse/downloads/ind
I search Google for netbeans php plugin: 37,000 results. eclipse php plugin: 1.4M results.
Enough said.
Microsoft has been backpedalling from MDI for a couple of years; the new versions of office open multiple windows when you open multiple documents. I find this quite irritating. I'm sure they did it because of the taskbar's collapse similar items thing, but I'd rather have MDI.
I thought it was to improve reliability: when you had 6 documents open in Word, and because Word is so flaky, one rogue document could crash them all. Same with IE: One browser crash and everything closes.
How long before we start seeing low slashdot ID's for sale on eBay...
This is a gem. I laughed hard, thanks.
Very insightful, thanks. I had originally wrote about the store analogy in my post, but I removed that part because a store is a public location as opposed to your computer running software. But I hadn't thought of the whole credit-card issue.
At first I was tempted to do like most: yell out that this was a privacy issue. Microsoft has no right knowing what software I'm using! But there are so many instances where I could claim that my privacy is invaded that I'm afraid I'm becoming more accepting of it.
...". So Steam/Valve know each time I play half-life. Interesting stats for them.
...
The latest of these instances occurred when I fired up Half Life 2 last night. "Logging on to Steam as
Every time I browse a web page, I'm telling everyone I use Firefox/1.0.3 on x64 Linux. Sure, I could hack my user agent string, but really. Most people don't, right? So now the slashdot editors know what I run, what my IP address is,
I only boot to Windows to play games like Half-Life, and it bothers me that Microsoft would know about everything I'm running on that Windows box, but how else are they to fix issues if they don't know what I'm running and what I was doing when it crashed? When do we draw the line between normal computer use and invasion of privacy?
Actually, what would be even better is to configure his web server to report itself as IIS in the headers it returns. That's the only real way to know what a web server is running
i crosoftcom_runs_linux_up_to_a_point_.html
I was simply offering some insight regarding this comment. Whether or not the Spiders check the TCP stack is beyond the point I was getting at.
FWIW, Netcraft seem to look at the TCP signature, so I don't think it's far fetched to assume it could be implemented in MSN's spiders.
This link is an interesting read on why the HTTP headers are not a sure-fire way of knowing what a web server is running:
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2003/08/17/wwwm
I read an article on Netcraft once that explained that the TCP signatures also vary from one TCP stack to the next, allowing you to identify a Linux box and a Windows box, regardless of the web server software.
Too lazy to dig up the article, but it was an interesting read.
Thanks. I learned a lot this weekend. Feel free to correct any of my learnings, summarized here:
r dw are/entry/550_specs.htmlr vers/eserver/xseries/x346. htmlt y/entr y_level/rx2600/index.html
1. RAID-1 has faster write access than RAID-5.
2. If your system doesn't have at least one fan per disk, you're cooling it wrong. Claiming that one fan per disk is inefficient is plain wrong.
3. One 120mm fan consumes more energy than three 80mm fans.
4. For every Google article that sais Yes, there is a Google article that sais No.
I guess I have plenty of work to do on the servers at work monday morning, because not one is configured with RAID-1 or one 80mm fan per disk, yet they're plenty fast and reliable. Hell, not one has a fan on the CPU! Maybe I should add one of those too?
http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/pseries/ha
http://www-1.ibm.com/se
http://www.hp.com/products1/servers/integri
You keep building your systems with RAID-1 and one 80mm fan per hard drive if that's what works for you. You're the expert.
Thanks for taking the time to transfer your knowledge. I am forever greatful.
You still haven't provided a shred of evidence to back-up your hard-to-believe claims
/mediaMaterials.html), one could intelligently conclude that it's not the operating temperature that is an issue (as long as it's operating within spec), it's the change in temperature that matters. Argue away with common sense, pal!
... and you argued about this:
"what needs cooling, it's the inside of the disk, where the platters spin."
Are you in for a treat:
Of my original top-5's, you argued with these:
RAID-5 is faster for writes than RAID-1
"As one could suspect, RAID 1 offers very little in terms of performance. "
http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=14 91&p=3
"RAID 5 arrays are said to provide a balance between RAID 0 and RAID 1 configurations."
http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=14 91&p=4
My claim is true and verifiable. AnandTech is a reputable website. If I recall correctly, you didn't seem to agree with this, yet you didn't back up *your* claim.
One fan per drive seems inefficient, and it will increase the power consumption of the box as a whole - not including the wasted space.
In my hand is a typical 80mm fan. 12V, 0.14A. 0.14 A x 3 fans = 0.42A @ 14V DC.
So are 3 fans per hard disk inefficient? This is subjective, I think so, you think not. Will they increase the power consumption of the box? Yes. Will they waste space? Yes. You then rebutted: even a dozen of them in one box would be nothing to worry about. And I agree. It doesn't stop the fact that it is a power increase. Care to disagree some more? Aw come on!
All these extra fans brings us back to the age of the noisy PC. So passé.
This is my subjective opionion. You can have a quiet PC while still maintaining proper cooling (as opposed to running a PC without any fans, as you suggest). A quick search on Quiet PC backs this up.
It's not the low temp of the drives that matters, it's air circulation + consistent temp.
- A quick search on google for "cause of disk failure" reveals that heat is practically never* a cause in a drive's death, so be it low or high temps, it doesn't appear to really matter. However, changes in temperature (which is opposite of my claim, consistent temperature) cause materials to expand and contract (do I need to prove this for you too?). Because disks are designed to compensate for this (http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op
In what way is this false? Can you say "No, the inside of the disk does not need to be cooled"?
"The smaller platters cause less air friction and therefore reduce the amount of heat generated by the drive"
http://www.pctechguide.com/04disks_Performance.htm
But hey, I guess Hitachi are "armchair experts" like me, huh? You said: because if the friction from air generated significant heat, hard drive manufacturers would have designed hard drives with the platters in an air-tight vaccume chamber
Perhaps because the heads wouldn't float? A plane could fly much faster if it weren't for the friction with the air, but it couldn't fly without the friction of the air. Perfect Catch-22.
So far, everything I've said makes sense. Everything. However:
They have fully sealed hard drives...
Who the hell is "They?". You expect "evidence" to "back up claims" from other people, yet you blurt out some pretty good fiction. Drives are not fully sealed, they have an air filter to allow for pressure differences
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/hard-disk5.htm
for special-purposes, and they are filled with inert gas in-place of air.
What special purposes? What gas? Are you referring to Sputtering: is a physical vapor deposition (PVD) process used to apply extremely thin films of one material onto another? I
If the PCB needed to be cooled to any extent, don't you think manufacturers would...
a) place the pcb on top of the drive, not below?
b) install heatsinks on the heat-producing chips?
> Second, the platters aren't doing anything but spinning through air
Spinning through air creates a *lot* of friction. The platters spinning at 7,200 RPM have a linear velocity of 1400 in/sec, org just shy of 80 mph. 10,000 RPM drives spin at about 111 mph. Think slick platters spinning through air don't generate heat? You're misinformed.
Because the platters are enclosed in a small space, the hear has nowhere to escape but by conductivity -- by heating the rest of the casing.
Don't take my word for it, just Google the words: hard disk platter temperature and read-up a bit. Or buy the latest "Upgrading and Repairing PC's" book. Good information in there too.
> Saying that fans are annoying so you shouldn't try to cool your hard drives is rather ignorant.
I never said that, you did. I said one fan per hard drive is inefficient, and loud.
In any case, we could beat this to death, but we won't. I've read, studied and work in this field. If you did, you would have a better understanding.
I know you're trolling but...
> Buying 2 extra drives so you can do RAID-5 sounds a lot less effecient.
You don't need to buy two extra disks to do RAID. You can do RAID-1 and RAID-5 with only three disks. Software RAID is done on a partition-basis. See my other post about this elsewhere in this thread.
> Since when? Did the laws of physics change on me?
Since forever. RAID-1 writes the same information on two disks, whereas RAID-5 writes the info once across stripes. Besides, RAID-2 is commonly only used with two disks, whereas RAID-5 can be spread across up to 32 disks and more, depending on the controller.
> Ineffecient how?
Drives no not need an 80mm fan blowing on the PCB. The PCB is not what needs cooling, it's the inside of the disk, where the platters spin.
>just try running your PC with no fans, and see how annoying that is...
Wow, smart answer. Truly insightful.
> No, it IS the low temp that matters
Run your drives at -50 degrees, see how the low temp helps.
You can RAID partitions.
Drive 0: 5 GB OS (raid 1 member 1), the rest data (raid 5 member 1)
Drive 1: 5 GB OS (raid 1 member 1), the rest data (raid 5 member 2)
Drive 2: 5 GB (swap, logs, temp, whatever), the rest data (raid 5 member 3)
RAID-5 does not require 5 physical disks. Only three as a minumum. As an added bonus, reads on a RAID-5 can take advantage of all three (or more) disks.
Actually, the main connection to the rest of the college network is locked in a small cabinet. But myself and other profs have requested some way of disconnecting from the main net for just this purpose. Perhaps a software solution could work for this too.
Other than that, having the students shut off their monitor works pretty good when you need to get something through.
1. Running 2 drives as RAID-1 with a spare souunds less efficient than just running RAID-1 for the OS partition and RAID-5 for the data. RAID-5 is faster for writes than RAID-1, but RAID-1 offers protection for the boot OS
2. One fan per drive seems inefficient, and it will increase the power consumption of the box as a whole - not including the wasted space.
3. Mounting a large fan with one single bracket would make the fam vibrate and not be mounted in a sturdy fashion
4. The title doesn't include the cost of the fans. If he has three drives, three fans, three brackets, we're looking at about $20
5. All these extra fans brings us back to the age of the noisy PC. So passé.
My suggestion? A good Antec case with proper ventilation holes at the front and a 120mm fan at the rear. If you have three or more drives, add an 80mm fan at the front, blowing air on the drives in the same direction the air is pulled in from the 120mm. It's not the low temp of the drives that matters, it's air circulation + consistent temp.
... Of the article in question.
As a part-time prof in a post-secondary institution, I have seen the sharp decline in classroom interest in the last 10 years, since the advent of Inernet, IRC, IM, and now Flash games and online Poker. It's increasingly difficult to teach class in a room full of computers due to all the distractions, lack of discipline and overall lack of motivation. Although these students are 18 to 22 years old, all they want to do is play games, chat and surf "rate my body"-type sites.
Even when you explain to them that the stuff they're learning could land them a good paying job, they can't seem to relate, because most still live at home with their parents.
This trend is disturbing indeed.