Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Wants Sit-Down With OSS Advocates
bonch writes "Microsoft is reaching out to the OSS community and wanting a sit-down to discuss how to better to interoperate with them. At a conference sponsored by the Association for Competitive Technology (ACT) in Cambridge, Md., Microsoft's Brad Smith extended an olive branch to its competitors, including the OSS community. 'We're going to have to figure out how to build some bridges between the various parts of our industry,' he said. Eric Raymond responds, saying the first steps Microsoft could do are to open their file formats and support open standards."
didn't he have strategy where he got everybody into one room, then barred the doors and... :)
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
They just want to get all the OSS leaders together in one room, then.....
(oh wait, that was Dr. Who this week. Never mind....)
Don't fall for it!
In a related headline,
Lucy promises to hold football with finger, Charlie Brown to kick.
Luke!!! It's a Trap!!!
ITS A TRAP!
Maybe, Just maybe, Microsoft and Linux fans can sit down at the same table and talk about the current computer market scene, but it will take some SERIOUS, serious change in Microsoft's approach (FUD, monopolizing, etc.). It would be a great day, but hopefully Microsoft will at some point open at least some of its software up.
It's a trap!!!
Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
--sig fault--
What is this? Could this be serious? They did recently acknowledge Linux as an operating system, instead of a cancer (they included support for it in VirtualPC). A very fine move on their part, but perhaps they are onto the final stage (Denial, Bargaining, Anger, Sadness, finally Acceptance?) Though they are not dying, perhaps they see an opportunity to "Accept" the fact that Open Source Software has been around and will be around much longer than anything else.
We must be wary though - could this be a wolf in sheep's clothing? Could this be a false branch? Might they trap the OSS developers at the meeting-place and hold them ransom?!
Who knows...
AccountKiller
And, for my more serious post.... Microsoft has "reached out" before. Seemingly not many remember their big PR campaign when they first released NT circa 1992. One of the big claims, one of the big selling points of their "new technology" (not what NT stands for, btw) was NT's POSIX compliance.... Microsoft purportedly was then about to "join" the open architecture community. They even convinced me to go work for them. But, it turned out they didn't do complete POSIX (only implemented the API, not the User Utilities), and only did the POSIX at all to get government contracts (I know this, I was at an internal presentation where "Margaret" prefaced the presentation with the comments, "We are only doing POSIX as a checkbox, so we can get government contracts..." (I am not making this up.))
"You expect me to talk, OSS?"
"No, Mr. Gates, I expect you to die."
Michael.
Linux : Mac
This is nothing more than a marketing brainwave. Microsoft will never in their right mind help the OSS community, unless the OSS community helps them an exponentially greater amount. MS realises they are fast losing ground to FOSSS, and the lifejackets are out.
Microsoft "working with it's competitors" - that just isn't realistic, it would be kinda like the Goatse man getting a job as a children's TV presenter.
If you are going to sup with the devil, bring a long spoon...
"'We're going to have to figure out how to build some bridges between the various parts of our industry,' he said. Eric Raymond"
Microsoft doesn't have a problem with building bridges... As long as they're toll bridges...
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Three words: Embrace and extend.
Please be fair .. Microsoft is not that nasty.
However, do remember to wear your winter coat, the hell is freezing over.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Mohandas Gandhi
The more you know, the less you understand.
> Eric Raymond responds, saying the first steps Microsoft could > do are to open their file formats and support open standards."
Actually, wouldn't a good first step be to stop calling us Communists?
"Eric Raymond responds, saying the first steps Microsoft could do are to open their file formats and support open standards" Response from Microsoft: Um, we wanted to build bridges that didn't involve contribution on our part.
How about following the RFC's to start. Once M$ adhears to the specs in RFC's devolpers will not longer have to alter RFC compliant code to be M$ compliant.
You only live once, so you might as well have fun before you die.
What a load of baloney!
Microsoft wants to interoperate? Go ahead! Just quit *not* interoperating.
Microsoft wants to reach out to the Open Source community? Uh, they really don't get it, do they. There aren't any leaders to reach out to! There are leaders, but it's not a labor union or a PTA.
We'll judge you by your actions, not by what you say to our leaders.
Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
The European Union (EU) is after Microsoft in a big way. The EU wants them to enable operability with other systems. The timing is such that these may be interrelated.
Banjo - The more I know about Windoze, the more I love *nix
If they would only focus on producing a stable operating system, it would certainly be in the right direction!
I'll bet that they just talk about random stuff and after that they go: "Uhm, now youre here, we have some bugs in our code. Mind to take a look?"
You're old school? I beta tested the motherf***ing abacus!
Is it just me, or shouldn't there be a little cause for suspicion?
Microsoft is corrupt to the core and has been for decades now.
They get $1.5 billion per year in tax breaks.
They destroy or buy out any smaller competitors.
They are aggressive supporters of software patents.
They prefer to hire cheaper foreignors and send US workers to the unemployment office.
What the heck! Do they think we're stupid?
Embrace and extend? I knew you could.
uh oh
btw, great movie :)
Um, yeah. When's that starting again?
Actions always speak louder than words, in both cases.
Hostages to ensure no harm befalls the participants. From an analysis of the Godfather:
/ game-theory/docs/lectures078/Godfather.html
http://www2.owen.vanderbilt.edu/mike.shor/courses
They know perfectly what they've to do: Open the source as much as you can, open the standards, play nice with your competitors
This is just free advertisement. They know perfectly what to do. They can hire people who can tell them what to do.
How this discussion will go...
MSFT: What can we do to better interoperate with OSS?
OSS: How about allowing Office to work with OSS file formats, or use an open standard that other programs can interoperate with.
MSFT: Um, uhh, We'll get back to you on that one. What else?
OSS: How about using standard video file formats such as MPG instead of the perverted version of MPG called WMA that only works with WMP.
MSFT: Uh, ehh, I don't think so! Anything else?
OSS: Well, how about using a file system that is open, publishing your own, or working with OSS file systems.
MSFT: This is crazy! I'm outta here!
Microsoft, it's called an intervention.
Well, I RTFA, and this is one of the most misleading titles I've seen in a long time. Microsoft explicitly states that they think their arsenal of software patents is a fine thing and they aren't willing to give up the right to sue. And if they aren't willing to give that up, what is there to discuss? In addition, there isn't anything that requires discussion. If Microsoft was really interested in wokring with the FOSS community, I'm sure there is somebody in their army of lawyers that could figure out how to write a royalty free non-discriminatory patent license that was compatible with the GPL. There is no need to discuss this with anybody, they can 'just do it'. The fact that they chose instead to have one of their lawyers give a content free, buzzword compliant speech tells us all we need to know about Microsoft's olive branch; the only thing they are interested in using it for is to poke people in the eye with it so they don't notice the sledgehammer they are holding in the other hand.
The typical MS pattern is this: Make it easier to accomplish your goal with our software and the competition dies. Make it easier to just use our browser and netscape dies. Make it easier to use our word processor and Word Perfect dies.
... wait... all they have to do is write software for Windows. Do this, and the competitor (Linux) will die.
Now take all these OSS groups. Many programmers want lots of people to use their software. They work for free, but they still get credit. Microsoft can give them all the credit in the world. All they have to do is bow down and worship
Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
All this stuff about Microsoft... It's scaring me
So they've finally realized that in order to survive they have to cooperate?
Show this to your friends and family that don't know what a real hacker is
Why would any company ask its competition how they could get along better, if the real motivation wasn't to be more competitive? Am I missing something?
-- Fratz, human
Well, the first step in a good interoperative environment would obviously be for M$ to respect the standards, and not trying tirelessly to "embrace and extend" everything in sight.
Unless this is done, any meeting is simply doomed to be fruitless.
You're kidding me, right? OSS and Microsoft actually working anything out? Keep an eye on the news, there's gonna be a lot of people dead in Cambridge.
I like my women how I like my sugar.. granulated.
MS does support open standards. They can read and write to them just fine. They just like to "enhance" them, and "innovate" to add functionality that, sadly, leaves open software hopelessly out of date and incompatible.
If you want full featured software, come over to the dar..., uh, our side of the street.
Behold, this dreamer cometh. Come now, and let us slay him... and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
Who wants to bet Apple's PR successes with OSS were the driving factor here?
Tiger _just_ shipped, and Apple has developmental momentum like MS can't believe. A lot of that is due largely in part to Apple's support of OSS, and the OSS community's willingness to let Apple use their products under the terms and bylaws of their relig...err, license of choice.
Now Longhorn, as it always has been, is at least a year away, and MS wants to play ball with the nebulous "enemy" that they've only previously only at first ignored, then derided and insulted in public (using terms like "viral"), then FUDded the hell out of them. I don't buy the coincidence of MS's sudden about-face and Apple's continued "media darling" status that it gains partially in thanks to OSS.
If anything, I think MS is still looking for real weaknesses in the OSS community, and maybe talking to the people that matter in that community can help them to figure that out. At the very least, they make waves and give the illusion of activity.
"Slaves are made in such ways. The last time Microsoft spoke of peace I was a boy. And many OSS nobles, who would not be slaves, were lured by him under a flag of truce to a barn, where he had them hanged. I was very young, but I remember Microsoft's notion of peace." -- William Wallace
At this week's hearing, Dudas said that the patent law should be changed to award a patent to the first person to file a claim. The current rules allow patents to be granted to the first person who devised the invention.
I had to glance at the date to be sure it's not April 1st. Nope, it's not.
Dudas is simply a moron.
Microsoft is still hanging on to their software patents, which they could use against OSS.
Microsoft: olive branch in one hand, chainsaw in the other.
Aren't they playing nice?
"It's a trick!.... Get an axe."
--Ash
Yes, it's redundant, but it bears repeating. This is obviously an attempt at co-opting the movement.
Why do you have 3 or 4 accounts like this? Is this from some obscure Flash animation or something?
*shhh* Linus, *shhhh* I am your father *shhhh*
You're old school? I beta tested the motherf***ing abacus!
but there are a number of people in the community who hold a lot of power to persuade and influence.
Remember, you only need consensus, not unanimity.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Bonjour! Velkomen to the latest Linux Strategy Secret Planning Lair Thing!
Today, we have another cunning plan to finally defeat the evil Micro$oft and their armies of inexplicable popularity! Listen carefully my tuxian friends, this will blow your minds:
We take out every Microsoft employees, one by one.
Sure, some will call it terrorism. But really, locking people in a room with ESR while he rants about how the Ay-rabs and homo-queers are trying to take away his preeeecious guns is more like... fear motivated coerced action. All it will take is fifteen hours of ESR going on about he is the greatest haxor 3v4r and those minions of the evil overload will be crying into their tele-tubby start buttons.
Finally! We are at the dawn of a new age. Soon the plebs will stop downloading Gator shite and awake to the new age - spending their weekends installing experimental kernel patches that half-enable hardware they don't actually have.
Give Microsoft a break! They just want to chat to them, see if they can get some partnerships going. All they want to do is treat a few selected OSS individuals just like they treat their business partners.
(heh heh heh)
Why does anybody listen to Eric Raymond anymore?
First of all, he's a pompous asshole who thinks he's far more important than he actually is--he openly brags about being part of an 'inner cadre of open-source hackers responsible for keeping the Internet going', presumably because he wrote the worthless and inferior fetchmail (which is an awful monstrocity that nobody uses; fetchmail also happens to be the only program he's ever written that isn't a silly 'toy' program most real coders would be ashamed of, e.g. hexdump).
And, if you've ever looked at fetchmail's source code, you'd know he's a piss poor programmer as well.
Free software and OSS will achieve mainstream status only after Eric Raymond is publicly shamed and shunned by every other major free software and OSS advocate out there...
Microsft has been characterized by their actions over the years as predatory... even when it hurt the bottom line. They would target and squash a company just because they could... because they relished a cutthroat style of competition to get motivated.
If I could get an ear within MS I'd try to get them to admit to themselves that the Internet made them more money and the Internet was entirely structured from Open Standards... ethernet, TCP/IP, sockets, HTML over HTTP and on and on... They profitted enormously from NOT fighting these standards... no dial-up MSN only.
The reason for this is the Rising Tide effect.
More investment is poured into a market and most companies benefit in some ratio to their marketshare... there's some shifting but the big winners accelerate adoption and don't fight the new standards that are causing the explosive growth.
Microsoft saw the benefits and only tried minor hacks to the standards (DHTML for example).
When microsoft realizes that having your only significant competitor cost almost nothing they should have the next big Eureka moment. The way to destroy the Sun, HP, and IBM Unix businesses is to accelerate the enterprise adoption of Linux.
Oracle got it... if they spend less on Sun, HP and IBM hardware they have more budget for our products... duh. IT budgets are finite... growth comes from getting more of the budget.
Sun, HP and IBM could be effectively driven out of the Enterprise software business. Enterprise deployments of big applications goes crazy based upon new cost models and Microsoft's boat rises on that new high tide.
The logical extension is commercial Linux versions of their higher margin products (MS SQL, Visual Studio) and even more growth as a company when
the only other significant alternative is an OSS project with little revenue to help it compete for Enterprise requirements.
That's what I might tell this guy to explain to Bill gates and Bill of course would sob gently...
"You mean we've already won? There's no one left to kill? Just mine the veins we already own?."
Well... there is Oracle still.
Bill will likely develop an interest in politics where dirty tricks still mean something.
McD
All cynicism and paranoia aside, if Microsoft is serious about wanting to interoperate (with anybody, not just the FOSS community), here's the input I'd give them:
-
Use open standards, and don't try to subvert them with little "improvements" so that they don't interoperate except with MS software any more.
-
Don't gratuitously invent your own closed or encumbered standards and then try to get them accepted as industry standards.
-
Stop giving the impression (and remember that actions speak louder than words) that your primary goal is to require everyone in the world to use Microsoft software, and to make it frustrating or impossible to use anything else.
My 3 cents.Someone hold me, I'm scared...
The parent is referring to:
Embrace, Extend, Eliminate
One thing that comes immediately to mind is Microsoft's attempt to subvert Java. They Embraced Java. They Extended Java such at to make the 'official' version of Java incapable of running scripts created with Microsoft tools. The next step was to Eliminate Sun Java. The wheels fell off the plan though. Sun took Microsoft to court and got an injunction.
Maybe someone can supply some more examples.
Sure, what could be wrong with that?
Name a good software company that has had a serious relationship with Microsoft as a competitor and has come off better over a 5-year period as a result of trying to cooperate with them (OK, IBM lasted a bit longer, but most are dead).
IBM has demonstrated any number of ways of showing some level of cooperation with the open or free software communities. Apple, too, has earned some good karma, basing their OS and browser on open code and architecture, even if they keep a lot proprietary. Sun has been involved as well, and it hasn't kept them from keeping other things private. So why can't Microsoft think of something like most other major companies have, without calling a conference of competitors that sounds too much like looking for a target to attack, much like SCO's supposed invitation to IBM and the open source community to sit down and work things out?
Stop being so evil. Microsoft has enough money in the bank to be able to afford business ethics and earn trust.
How insincere can Microsoft be? They don't need to sit down with anybody. All they need to do is publish their specifications for the API to their operating system. This claim that they want to 'find common ground' could hardly be more insincere.
When they're ready to cut the BS and be serious, all they have to do is publish their API. After that, let's talk.
Best regards.
It's their head lawyer (clue the sharks with lasers comments) - which is in itself quite scary - think about what he does all day and why he might care - I suggest we send a couple of IBMs 'Nazagul' along just make sure we know what's really up
..coated tin-foil hat :]
Open standards are kind of key. Maybe if they worked with the Samba team, they'd get a better reputation with the open-source community.
it was reported Eric Raymond was seen buying a "No, I will not fix your Windows" t-shirt...
You want to work with the Open Source community? Fine. Show us your openness. Tell us about your relationship with SCO. That'll be one big test of their willingness.
And the worms ate into his brain.
I guess this means that since hell has officially frozen over, I can start betting money on the Toronto Blue Jays again ...
my geeklog
-Stop saying OSS is Communist
-Full CSS2/XHTML 1.1 in IE7 with no proprietary extensions
-As stated, open the file formats.
ACs are modded -6. I don't read you, I don't mod you, I don't see you. Don't like it? Don't be a coward.
Everybody wants to say "I told you so," and make rude comments.
The OSS Community needs to seriously look at both the legal and long term ramifications of this.
Dont for a second forget all their tactics, ( such as the pollute and dillute ). They are RUTHLESS. Even if no stratjey they have tried before worked, they ONLY INTEREST IS MAKING MONEY AND PROTECTING THEM SELVES. Its not inhearntly evil, its just plain business. Look for something new in their strajety, and WHEN YOU HAVE THEM BY THE B*LLS, THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS WILL FOLLOW. Just make sure you have them by the b*lls first.
Donald Becker should chair this for OSS. He dosent like anyone. Hed be perfect. They could never bribe him. ( old M$ tactic ).
I saw this episode of scooby-doo. Velma says "No, RMS, Eric Raymond, Bruce Perens, don't do it, it's a trap!"
FLR
If you include ignoring the standard definition and doing whatever you please, yes, they read it. By that definition, my toaster reads it, too.
Do you really think they wanted to control the browser market for any purpose than to destroy it, because it was free and open?
Unfortunately for them, even after abandoning their users and code base for several years after they thought their opposition was dead, they find they have to come back to it once in a while.
If they would implement and support W3C and other standards, as well as reputable browser vendors do, it would be a start.
Don't do it
SIR: You, of course are insightfull and brillant.
OPEN THE FILE FORMATS!!!!
and sugar on top!
Full CSS2/XHTML 1.1 in IE7 with no proprietary extensions!!!!!
and stop LYING that were communists. We are GEEKS.
live with it.
"Money talks, Bullshit walks."
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
Yeah, right.
Just ask any company that has "partnered" with Microsoft how well it's worked out for them. The list of mangled corpses is long and grotesque indeed.
Interoperating with OSS is no secret. Read the RFCs, download the sources, and knock yourself out. An ersatz "partnership" is not required.
I say ignore them.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Dear Microsoft,
Via your general counsel, you say you want to use patents to "stimulate and share innovation with others". You don't need patents to do that: Just open-source your tech, and then make profits by selling support a-la-RedHat.
You also talk about patent reform and say that "the U.S. needs to move to a first-to-file system so that like everywhere else the first person to file an application gets the award rather than it going to the first to invent it". Right now if I publish my invention without patenting it, you cannot claim patent rights to it. However, under a first-to-file system, you would be able to patent anything I ever invented as long as it isn't patented by me or anyone else. Thanks, but we don't need this kind of "patent reform".
Except that I can't see how that would work as long as we stick with the GPL. Maybe that's what they want to discuss, that we replace the GPL by shared source, what a great idea.
TODO: 753) write sig.
Check Raymond Chen's blog http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2004/09/ 14/229387.aspx
FTFA: "...The [patent] law is fundamentally sound and works well...."
Yeah, it works well if your a member of the Billionare club, Incoporated. For example, ACME Deep Pocket Company is awarded an invalid software patent. Small Startup Company is taken to court by ACME Deep Pocket Company. How can Small Startup Company afford the lengthy litigation costs even when they're in the right? They have to cave in. The legal system supports Might Is Right in this respect.
mostly come out at night......Mostly...
And they're the only ones that matter to microsoft. Does microsoft care if joe coder makes his own O/S? Hell no. Microsoft cares about IBM, and SUSE, and REDHAT, people who can actually give major corporations support. I hate to break it to you, but your local DMV isn't switching to Gentoo anytime soon, because... taht's right... they want support. And any *open source* company that's offering support has a leader. And THOSE are the only people Microsoft REALLY cares about.
Wanting to meet in order to better interoperate with OSS sounds too vague to me.
Am I being paranoid, or are there hidden motives? What are they?
...desperate times, desperate measures. i dont think its unfair to say that as linux slowly becomes more popular and MS's main competitor releases a very good OS (OSX tiger), that MS might be worried about its place in the market. Who knows maybe in ten years time Microsoft wont exist...stranger things have happened. {{I love a good Troll thought the woods. mod me down you know you want to.}}
wasn't there a court ruling (in EU) that they HAVE to open up their file formats? seem to recall reading something about that quite a few times...
I remember many years ago when Microsoft first started acknowledging Linux as a threat someone posted on Slashdot drawing a parrallel between the 5 stages of grief and Microsoft's approach to Open Source. The similiarity is scary.
Denial
You all might not remember this, but Microsoft reps used to pretend to know even know what Linux was in front of the press (while internal memos were circulating about it).
Anger
Most remember that Microsoft took a very hostile position toward Linux saying all sorts of things about communism, terrorism, etc. They've admitted they were wrong about this campaign.
Bargaining
I think this is where we are now.
Depression
Something tells me if Longhorn flops, Microsoft's not going to be a very nice place to be at.
Acceptance
OpenWindows in 2010? Who knows. Would you have expected OpenSolaris in 2005 back in 2000?
The only reason Microsoft wants to have this discussion with open-source leaders is so that they can document it all and then fire off another anti-open-source campaign about all the unreasonable, anti-capitalist, anti-copyright demands that the open-source community expects from Microsoft.
Anyone who honestly believes that Microsoft's executives is having a change of heart and really wants to work with the open-source world is crazy.
Is this like the scene in the beginning of Braveheart when the English King invited the nobles to a meeting, and then hung them all?
I'm not a fan of Java, and will probably get flamed for saying that, but I am a fan of C#. It would be totally awesome to be able to write multi-platform compatable applications in C# without even thinking about it. So that's my vote. Start there!
What's a sig? Pete Brubaker
Microsoft: Yous guys, yous don't know hows this bussiness is run.
... Yeah I see that totatly happening.
*Big guy with a club steps out of the shadows*
Microsoft: Were gonna be nice, and teach yous how the software bussiness works.
I think everyone is missing it. Longhorn had finally broken down to the point where Bill Gates is getting desperate for a real fix. He's looking for a new kernal for Longhorn, that's why he's turning to OSS. If it works for Apple, it should work for Microsoft.
The only drawback is that there's nothing to preventing the new kernal from segfaulting when it see all the legacy Windows code it has to run. There's only so much you can do with OSS.
Watch out for the big pointy stick!
-- Microsoft is the most expensive commodity operating system and office suite vendor in the marketplace.
Microsoft cannot get the OSS community to agree to anything. They can't say: "Do xxx we have a signed agreement from your CEO".
Even Linus can only speak for 10% or so of the Linux code base.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
This probably has little to do with "interoperability." Wanna know how to get Windows to work with OSS? Look at the source. Hell, it's OPEN! That's, oddly enough, what the OPEN in Open Source Software is.
...Come out and Playyyaayyyyyyyyy!!
.. for an April fools joke? Microsoft to work with the OSS community? Surely, you jest.
Tired of all that huffing and puffing, the big bad wolf decided to try another approach.
You mean like Pee Wee "jack off in a theater" Herman, aka Paul Reubens?
When they have strong competition, they do one of these sit-downs, get the other side to share key information, then share nothing in return.
From the article:
WTF? This is expected to make the current patent problems better?
Don't save Windows XP! http://www.petitiononline.com/jjw1xp/petition.html
Here is a first-hand account of Microsoft's earlier effort in London, UK. Look for the great quote from Debian's Philip Hands at the end of the article.
h e_facts/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/28/ms_mugs_t
Sure we can talk!!
They're gonna have to get a pretty big room and a lot of chairs....
Thanks
--Tin hat on--
I have this strange recollection of Edward I calling the scottish nobles into a hut and then blocking the door and then burning down the hut.....
--Tin hat off--
You pronounced it wrong. Everyone knows...
IT'S A TWAP!!!
Ballmer: "Linux is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches."
:P
Ballmer: "Linux is communist..."
Ballmer: "Um... Ok, Linux, I was really just kidding about that communist cancer bit... really! Guys? Hello??"
I think the first thing MS should do, if they want a sit-down, is mandate that Ballmer gets a new name - "asshat".
I mean, really - it would creep me out to have Ballmer do a 180 and give the "developers" speach about open source...
Ballmer: "Open source. Open source. open source! OPEN SOURCE! OPEN SOURCE! OPEN SOURCE..."
Besides, we already have Stallman for THAT
come on.
read the first two headlines right now on slashdot
1) OSS under-cut of $$$ pc-systems WORKS for underdeveloped countries (for starters)
2) Microsoft wants to build bridges with OSS
gandhicon 4 is in the making folks: then you win.
This is funny, given that OSS and thus documentation about the standards used is publicly available. Want to reach out, make your sources public. If you can talk the talk, you should walk the walk... Three cheers for MS.
"Microsoft Wants Sit-Down With OSS Advocates"
Be wary OSS advocates - if you sleep with dogs, you awaken with fleas.
In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
Extend
Embrace
Extinguish
nuff said.
It goes a little like this...
Brad Smith: The king desires peace.
Eric Raymond: Longshanks.. er.. Gates desires peace?
Brad Smith: He declares it to me, I swear it. He proposes that you withdraw your attack. In return he grants you file formats, patents, and this chest of gold which I am to pay to you personally.
Eric Raymond: File formats and patents. Gold. That I should become Judas?
Brad Smith: Peace is made in such ways.
Eric Raymond: Slaves are made in such ways. The last time Gates spoke of peace I was a boy. And many open-source nobles, who would not be slaves, were lured by him under a flag of truce to a barn, where he embraced and extended and extinguished them. I was very young, but I remember this Gates notion of peace.
My question isn't what Microsoft plans to do for the open source movement.
It's what they want the open source movement to do for them.
Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
Its a Divide and Conquer strategy! They get just one or two people to buy into this whole thing, then send them back and wait until the OSS movement gets split. Once it is a nice manageable size you can just smash it or simply ignore it.
They just want to get all the OSS leaders together in one room, then expose them to government-regulated IP!!!!!!!!!!!!!
'SBEMAIL!' is better than a goat!!
Someone should go to this meeting and issue just two words for interoperatability "Follow standards." It is that simple.
At this week's hearing, Dudas said that the patent law should be changed to award a patent to the first person to file a claim. The current rules allow patents to be granted to the first person who devised the invention.
.... maybe I should start trawling Windows and M$ Office....
IPIX, anyone?
On second thought
A good way to start that would probobly cost almost nothing for you would be to take those nice documents you have that document various windows APIs, networking protocols and data formats and remove the licence (or failing that, make it one that allows GPL and Open Source projects to use the described stuff)
A Minbari meeting the Humans for the first time type scenario... Microsoft will approach with gun ports open as a sign of respect, OSS fires back and kills Bill Gates starting off a Holy War which will rage for years
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
ferengi rules of acquisition.
every once in a while delcare peace itll confuse the hell out of your enemies.
Companies that have found themselved in competition with OSS have finally started to see value. Not in the OSS, certaintly not, but in the (free, as in beer) developer base. You see, developers that work for free are a finite resource, there simply aren't that many to go around.
Sun caught on to this not too long ago, and psudo open sourced Solaris in the hopes that developers would flock to it, fix it, maintain it, and innovate on it. Sun realized that by open sourcing solaris it could, in theory, triple maybe quadruple its development and enginnering efforts for free! Oh, yeah, and it still owns and can sell Solaris!
Now MS sees that it can kill Linux, OpenOffice and other competetors by drawing it's developer base into the MS flock. I'm not talking about Linus and Stallman here, but I'm talking about the applications developers. People don't run any OS to stare at it, they use it to run programs.
I don't see MS open sourcing hardly anything, but what I do them doing is building an MS type source forge, some sort of MS exclusive [psudo] open source license, and maybe open sourcing it's development tools under that [psudo] open source license. They think they can give away free tools, and sponser a collaboration site and perhaps a few hundred or thousand OSS developers will start coding software that adds value to Windows for free.
I hope they are wrong.
Be Safe! Sleep with a Marine. Semper Fi!
Looks like he has serious credibility problems.
of course MS wants to interoperate with OSS systems like Linux. the problem for the OSS folks is getting MS to reciprocate. that's not going to happen other than in words. IMHO.
I like the idea.
:-M
Since even they know it's Darth.
Just like their "open" XML file formats for MS Office. Hah. Microsoft knows god-damned well what they could do to make nice with the Open Source community. No company that can successfully ream businesses and consumers out of hundreds of billions of dollars can convince me that they just honestly misunderstood what the word "open" meant.
I'm a capitalist, and not a zealot by any means, but I'd flip Microsoft the big fucking finger on this one.
So far all the comments I've read say it's a trap.
I can't help but be reminded that just last night on Law & Order one lawyer said to the other "You called this meeting. You're the more desperate. Your position is weak and we both know it." (I'm paraphrasing, but you get the idea.)
This format reminds me of what has happened to XML now that entities like Microsoft are contributing. While you can still make your way through the tangled details of the specifications, and arguably it is worth the trouble to support unicode, a big part of the difficulty, for some people at least (me) is that it is hardly worth the trouble. And when Microsoft programs generate XML, the goal of plain language is completely obscured.
I was trying to explain to my partner about how vcards are generated. I reviewed the documents on the website (imc.org/pdi). The vcard standards are difficult to understand. Finally I just made one up in a text editor and gave it to him to look at. He was amazed at how simple it was.
One danger of letting Microsoft into the conversation is that they will complicate everything to the point that no one can understand it without their programming environments, maybe even with their programming environments.
It's a cookbook!
--- Attorneys Assisting Citizen-Soldiers & Families -
Look, the very nature of "intellectual property" accepts that fact that you believe that it's "OK" to use the coercive power of government to controll waht people copy. So let there be no doubt, we are what we hold ourselves accountable to, and we are far more beholden to the forces that are pulling us apart from Microsoft that the ones that are keeping us together.
One more thing, if it's only about the technology, and not freedom. Then what's to keep Microsoft from offering key people money and benefits to influence the direction of Linux. If they don't see freedom as the end in itself, then they surely won't see anything wrong with that. The fact is, freedom matters, and in the information age the freedom to copy and distribute information that's already out there really matters.
Microsoft's goal is to maintain its present monopolies and establish new ones. Open Source is the number one barrier to accomplishing this, so Microsoft is going to do everything it can to undermine and destroy oss. The present "let's be friends" ploy should be seen as an attempt to do this.
You really want the OSS community to like you?
1. Completely open source DevStudio. This is the one app you need to give away (Not internet exploder, wordpad, media player, solitare, etc).
2. Do not place any restrictions on software created with DevStudio like you do now.
Most OSS developers can't afford to write software for windows.
All this aggravation ain't satisfactioning me
A little more bite and a little less bark
A little less fight and a little more spark
Close your FUD and open up your source and microsoft satisfy me
Satisfy me microsoft
Step 1: Have a sit-down with OSS advocates.
Step 2: Embrace.
Step 3: Extend.
Step 4: Extinguish.
Step 5: Profit.
A few movies come to mind, when I read the headline and post:
The beginning of Brave Heart, when all of Scottish Leaders are slaughtered after they answer the English King's invitation to peace talks.
The Minority Report, when the pre-crime unit places the devices on the heads of people who were about to commit murder.
The Empire Strikes Back, when Darth Vader says to Luke (after he chops off his hand), "Luke, I am your father."
Hey, who knows it could all turn out well. Let's see...
In Mad Max Beyond the Thuder Dome, "Two Man Enter, One Man Leave." RMS vs. Bill Gates.
Really, this could turn out well.
Why did I lurk so long before registering for a Slashdot account? I could have had a Slashdot ID of less than 100000.
You open the office file formats and NTFS then, we'll think about it.
Eric Raymond is the guy who told employee at VA when they where fired due to is incompetence as amanager that it did not mathered ...
... as a minimum )
... ).
Thats the same guy who is behind OSS license and the mess it is. ( Open source license shoudl at least stay OPen Source
No an accurate picture would be Linus Torvalds ( as Mel Gibson ) AND RMS as the crazy dude from scotland ( its my island
Eric Raymond = GNU/Linux traitor in my book
I think it wreaks of desperation. MS isn't the new thing anymore, they are the big bad monopoly. It's not easy to market as the big bad guy, so they want to be seen like IBM,the former big bad guy that's getting attention over OSS commitments. Plus that whole SCO thing didn't crush linux as expected, and longhorn is getting poor reviews. People are frustrated with poor security ruining they computers.
In the past MS didn't even give a phukene reach around as they embraced the competition, and now they are offering to reach out ?
I just don't really care have microsoft reach out. They carved out their solitude with monopolistic practices, and now they can deal with the consequences.
Want to do build some bridges Opensource?
;)
Provide drivers for filesystems;
Ext2 with Journaling
XFS
Reiserfs/Reiser4
Use a opensoundsystem.To have a opensoundsystem you let developers use tools that use sound to function accross multiple OS's,
Support different CPU architecture so that developers can use ms tools for multios and architecture.
Embrace Mono/C#. This way you could easily blow the pants of of Java IMHO.
Provide a free tool so that people in devoloping countries can code for Microsoft Windows. Possibly with WINE or perhaps more with C# again. Obviously this tool would be run in BSD/GNU/Linux because users can afford this, while a Unix environment is less resource hungry when using the right distro and software(s) naturally.
Opensource the Windows Drivers for older hardware. I'm not sure if they would be usefull for *nix's but if they are, I don't see how they're usefull to MS at all. Since the release of Windows XP, and the soon to be released Longhorn , these OS's don't really run adequatly on a old 266.
Videogames are the largest selling product next to Movies. I could hope for a shared video standard, but this would mean that people could play games on any puter they wanted.
Opensource the winmodem drivers or provide a free one so that the poor can buy a cheap modem and use it in Linux!
Provide a software that would allow driver developers to maintain compatibility with Linux for input devices and media. This way they could use MS tools to code the driver once and know that it would be compatible in *nix. This would be obviously proprietary.
Or how about the old joke/rumour about GNU/NT LOL! There's a bridge with a a troll!
Their probably just seeking help for their upcoming Xbox 2 Linux development kit. You know...so they can better support the modding scene and enable people to access free content on MS devices.
Well, gotta go get me some more crack now, my high is wearing off...
This Judas could be hanged in the tree.
Thanks my tuxi Jesus!!!
(Not that ESR would have a problem with that.)
You know what the scariest part of this whole article is? The fact that everyone in the article seems to be pushing for changing our patent system to first to file, instead of the current system of first to invent, or oblivious to its consequences. Imagine what Microsoft could do with that change coupled with software patents. Anything they could think up to patent would be their intellectual property. Google about patent harmonization, and first to file vs. first to invent
and calls themselves the shark slayer.
i want to know everything about these guys.
(if you have kids, you'd know.)
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
... BillG might have had a revolver taped behind the tank!
this is a typical example of "keep your friends close and you enemies closer"
It is easier to hand out a bunch of subpoenas at one time.
...
The boys and girls of the building have said "I don't know, sorry Judas."
Tomorrow, the case will be closed, he did suicide.
There's nothing stopping you from doing it. It would be a wonderful thing if you did.
So do it already.
Sheesh.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Find it ironic that the same day, their profits fall below expectations for the quarter?
SmartBox
In other news...
The fox association has successfully scheduled negotiations for securing the hen house of Farmer Fred. The Foxes say this new agreement will benefit all animals and humans in Farmer Fred's area.
Your Average Joe
I read the article. Scary. Both Brad Smith (General Counsel, Microsoft) and John Dudas [the current Patent & Trademark Office director] called for changing the patent law to award patents to the first to file the claim instead of the first inventor.
Once in plance, does anyone NOT see Microsoft & other large software companies rushing to file claims on innovations also found in OSS? I'm sure Microsoft would love to combine their two great talents: copying other people's innovations and using IP as a weapon.
Maybe we should be asking them "Where Do You Want to Go Today?" instead of the other way around!
Microsoft is reaching out to the OSS community and wanting a sit-down to discuss how to better to interoperate with them
So are they meeting us here, or what?
Cheers
Stor
"Yeah well there's a lot of stuff that should be, but isn't"
DO NOT TRUST THEM. For god's sake guys- the reason they are willing to sit down is that you are winning in a way that threatens their ability to exist. I trust them to treat you as well as they did IBM. I trust them to be as fair as they were to Lotus 123 with DOS. I trust them to be as fair to themselves as they were with the Word95 certification to run with standard code under Windows95. Just keep doing what you are doing- it's working.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
--| Richard Stallman on How to Deal with Microsoft |-----
The following is Mirrored from: http://linuxtoday.com/stories/4999.html
Richard Stallman proposes three remedies that would help enable free
software operating systems such as GNU/Linux compete technically while
respecting users' freedom. These three remedies directly address the three
biggest obstacles to development of free operating systems, and to giving
them the capability of running programs written for Windows. They also
directly address the methods Microsoft has said (in the "Halloween
documents") it will use to obstruct free software. It would be most
effective to use all three of these remedies together.
1. Require Microsoft to publish complete documentation of all interfaces
between software components, all communications protocols, and all file
formats. This would block one of Microsoft's favourite tactics: secret and
incompatible interfaces.
To make this requirement really stick, Microsoft should not be allowed to
use a nondisclosure agreement with some other organization to excuse
implementing a secret interface. The rule must be: if they cannot publish
the interface, they cannot release an implementation of it.
It would, however, be acceptable to permit Microsoft to begin
implementation of an interface before the publication of the interface
specifications, provided that they release the specifications
simultaneously with the implementation.
Enforcement of this requirement would not be difficult. If other software
developers complain that the published documentation fails to describe
some aspect of the interface, or how to do a certain job, the court would
direct Microsoft to answer questions about it. Any questions about
interfaces (as distinguished from implementation techniques) would have to
be answered.
Similar terms were included in an agreement between IBM and the European
Community in 1984, settling another antitrust dispute. See
http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ibm/ibm1984ec.h tml.
2. Require Microsoft to use its patents for defense only, in the field of
software. (If they happen to own patents that apply to other fields, those
other fields could be included in this requirement, or they could be
exempt.) This would block the other tactic Microsoft mentioned in the
Halloween documents: using patents to block development of free software.
We should give Microsoft the option of using either self-defense or mutual
defense. Self defense means offering to cross-license all patents at no
charge with anyone who wishes to do so. Mutual defense means licensing all
patents to a pool which anyone can join -- even people who have no patents
of their own. The pool would license all members' patents to all members.
It is crucial to address the issue of patents, because it does no good to
have Microsoft publish an interface, if they have managed to work some
patented wrinkle into it (or into the functionality it gives access to),
such that the rest of us are not allowed to implement it.
3. Require Microsoft not to certify any hardware as working with Microsoft
software, unless the hardware's complete specifications have been
published, so that any programmer can implement software to support the
same hardware.
Secret hardware specifications are not in general Microsoft's doing, but
they are a significant obstacle for the development of the free operating
systems that can provide competition for Windows. To remove this obstacle
would be a great help. If a settlement is negotiated with Microsoft,
including this sort of provision in it is not impossible -- it would be a
matter of negotiation.
This April, Microsoft's Ballmer announced a possible plan to release
source code for some part of
in related news, NoMachine's NX just hit version 1.5 (release with link to download).
Badass X proxy for remote X. Desktop over 56k? Sure.
Rootless mode got a lot of attension in 1.5. Still some major problems, but much better. Before you used to have to run it in a window.
Myren
Wasn't April Fools like 29 days ago??? I guess people are right: Microsoft always ends up trying to catch up...
University of Washington
Student
"The lad doesn't know our rule."
"There can be no yielding in the tahaddi-challenge. Death is the test of it."
an ill wind that blows no good
... be weary of smokey backroom meetings with Bill Gates.
GetTheJob.com : Nothing but Real Jobs.
"Extend an olive branch" - (vb)
(1) To attack with IP lawsuits, especially when the lawsuit is very weak, but the party being sued does not have the resources to fight it.
(2) To fund 3rd parties to attack with IP lawsuits. "Microsoft extended and olive branch, through SCO, to IBM and Daimler-Chrysler "
"Build some bridges" (vb)
To sit down with a party to decide how to most effectively extend an olive branch. (qv)
"Collaborate" (vb)
To protect one's monopoly by destroying ones opponents by any means, fair or foul. Especially of political bribery to effect legal changes that make the modus operandi of potential competitors illegal.
"Open up one's file formats"
(1) To obscure one's file formats, especially formatting, so that competitors products look buggy when viewing files.
(2) To send malformed files when ones servers are communicating with one's potential competitors. "Microsoft's web servers have opened their file formats to the Opera web-browser"
Gates (in Brando-esque voice): What is it with these open-source guys? All they want is war. Every day -- 'Microsoft's got to go! Gates is an evil man!' All we want is to do business. What is it with these people? What do I gotta do to just do some business?
Concilieri (imagine James Caan's voice): I hear there's a group of people trying to rewrite Windows from scratch. I figure we've got two years at most before we have to act.
Thug: Yeah, you should hear what people are saying about us. People are running over to their side.
Gates Jr.: Pop, let me handle this. I mean, if a bunch of losers are saying, 'Bill Gates did this, Bill Gates did that', you know, we gotta find out whose saying these things.
Thug: Yeah, boss, just say the word. We can tare care of these creeps.
Gates: No, no. The heat's already watching us close. Business is hard enough without you two making it worse. (points to Gates Jr.) Send Mikey over there. Tell them I want a sit-down. It's too hot right now -- we can't do business like this.
Gates Jr. (argumentative): Pop--
Gates: (waves to cut him off) Tell them.
(Gates Jr. waves Thug to follow and leaves in a huff)
Gates: (waves Concilieri close) We'll try to get them to see reason. If they decide to be unreasonable-- (shrugs)
Concilieri: (nods) Understand. I'll handle it. (leaves)
OpenSourcelings...HHHmmmmmmmm"
"But you're Microsoftsis. You killed the standards!"
"NO! no! OpenSourcelings not understand Microsoftsis! Have Microsoftsis all wroooonngg! Hmmmm! Hmmmm! Microsoftsis want peeace with OpenSourcelings! HmmmmnnnnMMMMooo!"
"Uh....Uh....What do you want?!"
"OpenSourcelings just give Microsoftsis what they want and it can be over. OpenSourcelings go free. Just give me the service contracts!"
"You're a liar! Run Tex! Run!"
(In the ensuing chase, the Daemon gets loose into the Castle but the disgraced CEO manages to catch Tux as he doesn't waddle too fast. The Chairman is pleased enough to restore his tailored suit and allow him back on the Board. The CEO being the whimpering weasel that he is fails to mention the Daemon running about with a threatening sliver of service contracts......)
"Don't be frightened little OpenSourceling. This isn't going to hurt. We just want to drain your living essence........"
"In the world of software development today there is a broad panoply of software development models," Smith said.
they misspelled pan-opoly.
who is she? leave a comment!
for example, each wants the other to fuck off and die.
who is she? leave a comment!
should read "Microsoft Wants Bend-over With OSS Advocates"
who is she? leave a comment!
Once I heard it stood for Northern Telecom - that they wrote the kernel or something. It was a long time ago...
Microsoft is already losing, and if I were Gates, then I'd be thinking about how to assist the open source community to adopt MS standards, such as opening up the word document implementation.. or the latest excel implemtnation.
That way, he's only continuing the further use of such an implementation.. and distribution of Microsoft products to a commercial community that doesn't really want to rely on the open source community because of unreliability and accountability to a single entity.
Same reasoning a lot of businesses go with flat, expensive PBX's than Asterisk.
Pure business. Makes more sales for them, it makes perfect sense.
This week's end-of-the-week mis comes from Microsoft.
It appears that the MS tenticles have no recolection of
what the fuck the brain is doing.
Ergo, Chairman Bill will sever the link, and the MS tenticle
mentioned in the press will be out-of-a-job in less than
24 hrs PST.
Toodles!
Step 1: Have a sit-down with OSS advocates.
...s back on track.
Step 2: Embrace.
Step 3: Extend.
Step 4: Extinguish.
Step 5: Profit.
Geez, I'm glad someone finally took what has to be the Slashdot joke set up of the year.
I just would have said:
Step 1: Have a "sit-down" with lead OSS developers.
Step 2: Fill room with poison gas...
Step 3: Release "Windows for No Longer Supported Linux Systems".
Step 4: Profit
if users are using free software(1) on windows, the network lockin effect (.doc, wmp, html) would no longer be a problem. of course vendors would have to really be allowed(2) to install firefox and mplayer for example. this is really a better situation than killing microsoft in theory because its closer to people choosing whatever platform they want seperately from choosing the software they use.
but microsoft cant have that. they are hell bent on destroying anything thats "in thier way", thus if we want any choice in the matter, we are forced into a conflict.
(1) by this i mean free as in speech, including openly documented protocols.
(2) without having thier bussineses destroyed at the whim of gates. of course MS will still do things like require IE for updates, when any other vendor on the planet can make a standalone program (see apple), or (horrors!) actually let it be done through an open protocol...
I think your analysis is spot on. I'll add, as a .NET developer, that the Microsoft that is so sweet and tempting to me is that they are a tool builder and language designer, and I cannot for the life of me understand why Bill feels the need to hold onto Windows so hard he kills it and everything else.
Wasn't Bill Gates a tool builder? Did Microsoft not have software languages and tool building as their mandate as a company? Yeah, they did. If you are a tool builder, and a language designer then don't prevent us from using the tools on everything and anything we want. Languages are malleable and evolve and adapt and are used freely, but at the same time we need tools, which should cost money. So, give us tools that makes it easy to make an OS do anything I can think of, and I'll pay a lot for the tools. Microsoft as a tool builder should hope that the price of the materials should drop.
Interestingly, with software, sometimes the tools become "applications" themselves, for instance Word becoming automated by using VBA, or simply tracking document editing over time. Then developers realize that it's a tool and an application and want it for free so we can build the next killer app. Microsoft and companies like it should then work hard to build the next toolsets and languages that help us to build that greater application, or else they are going to have to fight as OSS software is developed.
Of course, there are other motivations besides developing the next killer app for writing OSS, like just wanting to not have to upgrade because your file format is too old and plain text isn't "acceptable" anymore.
So Microsoft has decided to start pusing there Trojan horse towards the gates of FOSS. Bet it gets a BSoD before it reaches em.
I think talks with Microsoft would be good. But at the moment there just asking us around for a bbq and some shit shandy.
We realy shouldn't talk to them until they are pleading at all our doors holding gift wrapped single malts....
"Never trust a computer you can't throw." -- The Mac
I would not be surprised to learn that Gates has developed a microscopic eavesdropping implantable device... or that they'll all come down with cancer in a few years... I mean would I walk into a room with a megalomaniac-psychopath like Gates if i had something he wanted? I thinketh not....
Is it just me, or does the last couple of paragraphs where they talk about patents going to the "first to claim" put a chill down your spine?
With that alteration in the system that'll close the door on the ability to turn over a patent based on prior art.
PLD.
If they really want to interoperate, they'll find a way. After all, it's -- OPEN SOURCE!
They can't be trusted, so why tell/ask them anything. Make 'em work for it!
"Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction. They may be summed up by the phrases:
-Arthur C. Clarke
It's got to be either Godwin or Vlad the Impaler.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Then why doesn't Microsoft go to them instead?
In the end, Linux is awesome. Why can't Microsoft realize that and just give up? While they are surrendering they can donate 45 billion dollars to the Open Source community. http://www.coolslice.com/blog/blog.html
The only (t)reason I can come up with is for MSFT to get a lot of prominent Linux people into a large room, then show them a presentaion consisting of - SURPRISE! - Windows source code.
Sure, the OSS attendees will all run screaming from the room - still, when the next Linux kernal is released, MSFT can search the code for a few common strings and claim Linux is corrupt with Windows code. And they'd have "proof" that the main developers had viewed Windows code.
1) Fund Open Office
2) Fund Red Hat
Shouldn't that kill 'em?
This sig donated to Pater. Long live
'here, put this olive branch between your teeth!'
Just like Cesare Borgia (16th century), who invited four of his rebellious condottieri (mercenary) captains to a reconciliation feast at Sengallia. The ensuing massacre is still remembered with a shudder.
it's not suprising that the story previous to this is ms missing their earning predictions. Sorry but fuck em, they burnt their bridges.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Today Richard Stallman extended the hemp leaf of peace to Microsoft, saying "glide on down to my pad, baby, and let's roll up some J's and be mellow, like, and build the software stairway to heaven, dig?
Assuming that p. L > 0. Your math does not hold water.
"Eric Raymond responds": but was he actually *asked*?
I think the victim clans misunderstood what was meant by "We'd like you to come for dinner"...
1. Remove property extension from Microsoft's Kerberos 5 implementation.
2. Implement NFSv4 Client.
M$ wants a "sit-down"? Do we need to "come heavy"? Next someone will tell me they want to discuss the families interests in the olive oil business. W
TerminalEcho
Having worked for Microsoft I perhaps can point out what the problem is with Microsoft. They are not about good software,they are about market share. They are not about opening up the world for users, they are about locking them in. They are not about freedom, they are about greed. They are not about free software, they are about software you have to pay them for. The only reason they want to talk to OSS advocates is because they are losing business. I say give them the big F off, I did when I told them to stick their filthy job up their arse and I've never looked back.
There's only one thing scarier than being beset by a devil, and that's having the devil come on chummy and say, "Let's be friends!" Don't do it! Don't take the carrot! It's a trap you fools!
Somewhere in the Microsoft corporate offices, right now, is another "Halloween document" sitting in the middle of someone's desk, detailing the strategy for "dealing" with open-source. Were that document to be revealed to the rest of the world, it would fill them with disgust and horror. I guarantee all of you this and will make an exception and be back to say "I told you so". I vow, if the Linux community becomes Microsoft's lapdog, then I'd just switch to BSD. What the hell does Linux need Microsoft for? What could we do with Microsoft that we haven't done better already without them (besides rape and pillage the world and turn out a shoddy, rip-off product) ?
I would geuss that Opensource is alien for microsoft.
Imagine FSF world... King RMS II is looking at his kingdom... some GNU's are lying in the Sun.
In the sky a small dot appears. Slowly it becomes bigger and bigger. Eventualy RMS noticed that it is a space ship. A new model called 'XP with windows". When it is landed it sits there for a while. It is nice metal collor,shiny egg shaped craft. There is small sign on the door saying "Please close windows when taken off"
After a while the door opens. A Bill Gates creature comes out of the craft and walks too the GNU. With a robot like voice the creature says:Bring me to your leader... bring me to your leader.
RMS is watching this and thinks "Dammend people from planet propertary... first those presky IBM and now those guys". He shakes his head and walks away. Het still regrets that he didn't become a balet dancer as his mother wished. Live could be easy...
"Microsoft is reachng out to the OSS community and wanting a sit-down to discuss how to better to interoperate with them.
( &^ *&^
April Fools day is over you bastards......
Oh wait.......
No come on, will whoever has the real microsoft plaease put it back, I'm getting... tooooooo...... coooonnnnnffffuuuussseeeedddddddd........
%^$^%*&%^*&^()__)&()&(*^&^%$&$^&%*^*&%&^^(^*&^*
Kernel Panic
Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
They've stripped practically everything innovative from it and backported the rest to XP, making Shorthorn big, fat and hairy but not a deal.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Why doesn't Microsoft properly support open, international standards like C99 and PNG? Microsoft is obviously a very capable company with exceptional resources, so the only explanation is that they don't want to be cooperative.
As a disclaimer: I've worked for Microsoft, and taken tiny bits of their money a decade ago for a book and some other trivial projects. I have no reason to hate MS on any personal level. My distaste for Microsoft and move to FOSS solutions is based on their business practices, the antics of people like Balmer, and their refusal to support internation standards. Give me complete CSS and PNG support in IE, give me open document standards, make working with NTFS easier via Samba, and implement complete international standards like C99. Then Microsoft will look a while lot better to me.
All about me
do they have programers? I mean, they can read open source applications code, it's there for anyone to read, so why do they want the meeting for? to make developers follow their standards? They can take a look and write some code to make interoperability work or (as said by someone some comments befor) free some of their work under an open license and someone will care to make the interoperability. Really, I don't get it, but maybe there is something I'm missing...
I see connected people! - The seventh sense
Ewww, my grandparent's my parent!
What Gates really wants is just the permission to work with OSS..but he doesn't know how.
We recently saw MS's ACT lobbying in Brussels for Software patents. Real amateurs. I think MS lobbying for software patents just mirrors the common conspiracy theory.
I am looking forward to a real discussion with MS. But the problem is: talking to lobbyists is like talking to the press speaker. I want to speak to persons who are responsible, no lobbying clowns.
"companies like it that a less experienced person can still keep a win2k3/XPSP2 network up and running,"
I see this idea put forward all the time and yet, when things fall apart in the windows world, it is often blamed on clueless admins. It would be a good idea for people to have a bit more of a consistent view when it comes to this issue. (Not pointing at you in particular as you have only stated one half of the equation.)
all the best,
drew
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
Did you notice MS's latest print ads?
They show Dinosaurs using older versions of MS Office, telling people that if they don't use the latest version, they can't interoperate and get as much done.
I find that fascinating.
If this is not a PR move microsoft can save themselves the trouble of a meeting. All they need to do is open their file formats.
One never gets to see the goatse guy's face. He could be anybody. Let's see, who is the biggest asshole I know?...
"...we find your references to a negotiating table somewhat confusing, since there doesn't seem to be anything to negotiate about...we wait with bated breath for when you will actually care to inform us about what you are blathering about."
Msft has been very actively attacking F/OSS. F/OSS has been trying to be compatible with msft. If msft wants to stop being scum, all they have to do is stop.
a) stick shifts don't give you control of your car, they give you control over gear changing.
b) chauffers may do everything for you, but they don't deny you any control - you could tell your chauffer when to change gears if you really wanted to, or to drive the rest of the way entirely in first gear.
If you really want to compare OSs to cars, MacOS is a decked out comfort car (BMW) and Linux is a powerful engine with a frame with lots of attachment points to add the rest of the car.
Microsoft is reaching out to the OSS community
Can I be the only one in which this phrase immediately evoked Cthulhu's mighty tentacles?
'We're going to have to figure out how to build some bridges between the various parts of our industry,'
So Microsoft will more effectively know where to put the guard towers and road blocks?
Eric Raymond responds, saying the first steps Microsoft could do are to open their file formats and support open standards.
Good! Not necessarily a bad thing to meet to gather intelligence. Just as long as they are "open" meetings that don't attempt to coopt the participants. And if the participants are centered in an intelligent position of strength. Does Microsoft now accept that linux is like dandelions and kudzu -- a part of the technological ecology that isn't going to be eliminated? Or are they just searching for a new model to "buy in" like Apple and Borland stock deals? Maybe some Microsoft code in exchange for a subservient linux? Divide and conquer?
If Bill Gates wants to show his support for open source, he can direct the Gates Foundation to give a Million or two $$$ to the various opensource projects that lead currently.
Basic software should be free, for those who feel like making it and giving it away to the community.
And since Bill Gates has profitted the most off of the computing community, well - if he would like to give back some support to that community, no strings attached, that would be welcome.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the first decade of "reverting technology". Simply, most of the products we have or which have been used before achieve 99% effectiveness. We've been through 20 good years of computer revolution and we've learned that the commercial need for new features or speed has largely been eliminated. What we're going towards is the editing phase in which a group of people (OSS) takes the best ideas from all the things that have come and puts them together in a nice easy free package that is universally used. In a way, we're going back to pick up all the great things we left before and call it a day. It's what happens to an advanced culture, they eventually figure out the best way to do things and then keep doing them for thousands of years. This is explained as the "Banana Leaf Parable" from Charles Eames.
Interesting take but I think that you're missing the boat. Microsoft is not going to destroy IBM's Unix business as it is a niche market at this point anyway. IBM has a huge push on the adoption and development of Linux. The shift is to a services industry and the Power line (which breaks Intel's hold on them as well.) When you delve into the mini and mainframe worlds, they pretty much own that space and have no fears from M$. I suspect that HP has a similar strategy. Sun, on the other hand is in a real pickle. They have built their entire company around Solaris and SPARC. I would imagine if they wanted to survive they would team with enterprise class Linux companies to ensure that it runs on their hardware and provide value add.
The bigger the smile, the sharper the knife.
-Tom
They actually mean: convince them to use MS tools/OS.
We all know that when MS speaks of interoperating, they mean that as a one-way street. Besides, they have been bashing the OSS community so bad, I wonder what they really expect now. A sit-down after having been called evil, communist and unreliable? Are they fricking kidding us? 8)
Oh my god, just do NOT meet with these guys from Microsoft. They want to know the names of the OSS people, so they can either offer them a lot of money to work for MS (and overwork them so they will not have time to develop the OSS projects they were working on), or somehow tinker with their lives! (Scary neighbours moving in, and stuff).
I was just thinking that if Microsoft promised they would not make copyright, patent infringement, or other IP claims against the current release of Mono, with appropriate language on how that promise would propagate to future releases or derivative projects, that would turn a lot of heads. It would be perceived as a surprising and welcome step.
I wish that they would talk about freedom. If they use only the "quality code" argumentation M$ can compete. But if they mention freedom there is no competetition with that in their current business model.
What youre saying is that, if linux costs nothing, and can drive HP/IBM/Sun out of business, then M$ can collect a larger share of the total total enterprise software budget.
I have to disagree here, and say that its not the software that people value, but the service that goes with it. Even if the software is freely available, business customers will still require a support service, training facilities etc. Linux may well drive out the proprietary *nixes completely, and some of the enterprise software that goes with it, hence we see IBM offering entire 'solutions' based on OSS. I dont see Linux being IBM/HP/Sun's enterprise software business downfall, theyll just adapt to the new environment.
- The grandparent post was meant to be *funny* although to be funny there has to be a little truth in the form of their embrace/extend/extinguish tactics.
- Aside from certain predatory business practices (which are understandable in the dog-eat-dog world of business), I admire Bill Gates. Anyone who puts billions of $$ and his own time into world-altering worthy causes like The Gates Foundation should be admired. Let's face it, when the future looks back on Gates, he'll be remembered as more magnanimous than the tycoons that started the Nobel prize and funded the libraries. Even though I'll probably switch to Apple in time, I take consolation that probably 95% of the Gates fortune will eventually go to charity. I've got no delusions that this man who routinely gets ridiculed on
/. will do more good for this world than me and my hundred closest friends.
So we can joke about this sit-down using lines from Braveheart, but let's not forget what Gates is doing in his fleecing of the rich and giving to the poor. (Preparing for the onslaught, or maybe mercifully, all ofMicrosoft is looking for a group to represent OSS advocates, to make generalizations about, because unfortunately they cannot do that with all of the individuals involved, making "OSS advocates" appear like a group of unique individuals. MS cannot combat this as there is nothing to make generalizations about. The solution is to round up a group and allow the reader to assume that their statements and conclusions represent the entire OSS community. Who is to say MS won't find the individuals that just allow them to launch into whatever they want to say?
Do not underestimate the power of the proprietary side of the source!
[Insert pithy quote here]
I don't know why, but this reminds me of a meeting of scotts in "Braveheart" (the one in the beginning of the movie where all attendees were hanged)
I would imagine if they wanted to survive they would team with enterprise class Linux companies to ensure that it runs on their hardware and provide value add.
Eh? Sun's x86 servers are certified for SuSE and Red Hat, their JES runs on Linux, their SunRay server runs on Linux, OO.org/StarOffice runs on Linux, Java runs on Linux, is this the partnering you were referring to?
Sitdown? We don't need no stinkin' sitdown. You can interoperate with our code a lot easier then we have been able to interoperate with your code. The only reason you can even call it your code is the fact of weak free licences like the BSD and your ability buy code innovated by others.
So now you want a sit down.
GO AWAY!
The problem with this view is that the open standards of the internet did not directly cut into the operating systems or office software market. They produced a demand for more features in those markets.
In the case you're talking about, MS would be directly killing their cash cow Windows by promoting Linux. It is possible that in the end they'd make more, but neither they nor their investors can realistically push a strategy that phases out Windows or Office when that's where the money comes from. This would be a very risky strategy...
David Simon, chief patent counsel at Intel, testified before a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing earlier this week and said, "Let me state at the outset that the patent law is not broken. The law is fundamentally sound and works well." However, Simon called for reforms or improvements in the areas of patent quality, training and funding for U.S. Patent and Trademark Office staff, access to prior art, harmonization and litigation abuses, among others.
"More recently, the PTO, with Jim Rogan [former director of the PTO] and John Dudas [current PTO director] providing the political leadership, decided that now was the time to change the fundamental premise on which the PTO would judge whether or not it was really making a contribution to supporting industry by shifting away from what had predominantly been a production-based mentality"--how many patent issues could be generated per staff year of effort"--to attempting to import into the PTO as many different quality improvement techniques and practices as possible," said Brad Huther, a director at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and former president and CEO for the International Intellectual Property Institute.
At this week's hearing, Dudas said that the patent law should be changed to award a patent to the first person to file a claim. The current rules allow patents to be granted to the first person who devised the invention.
Is there a reason no one is talking about this?
Giving the patent to the first to file seems like a bad idea to me. What if you have an idea, implement it as software, release it, and someone else sees a patentable idea in it and chooses to file? It was your idea, but some else can effectively steal it from you.
Microsoft has made several attempts to get Windows into the service model. So far almost nobody has bought it.
I have a hard time seeing that Microsoft is "in trouble". The growth Microsoft thinks it is entitled to is over. I am sure people in Microsoft think double digit growth and triple digit margins are normal and anything less is "trouble".
But realisitically Microsoft will dominate the desktop for a long long time. Too long in fact for my tastes.
People will stick with Microsoft for the same reason they go to McDonalds when there is a great deli next to the golden arches. They will go with what is familiar. They will chose the path of least resistance.
Even though McDonalds is not growing, McDonalds is not in trouble.
Religion is the main cause of atheism.
They support TCP/IP! (although, they don't want to)
Is Capitalism Good for the Poor?
...was my favourite. The Congress and French Assembly scenes.
. mov
"We come in peace!"
http://archiv.scifi.sk/MarsAttacks/video/congress
No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
Thanks, that was *really* funny ;-).
Insert
I think I agree, but I look at it slightly differently. I think IBM just LOVES a market where the software is free, and people spend their money on hardware and support. (And, even if they "get it", I don't see MS being able to transition to this model. For too long, their idea of "support" is "We've come out with a new version. Buy it, then we'll talk.") (One of the funny things I've been noticing lately is how much easier it is for me to find answers to my questions about "free" software than about things I've paid for. Although, that may be because my typical Linux questions are a lot simpler than my Windows questions.)
The people you have mentioned have no authority to speak for the OSS movement (though Raymond is the self-proclaimed OSS historian/scribe/whatever-you-want-me-to-be-if-you -buy-me-a-beer). Bill Gates can't get any of them to sign an agreement on behalf of OSS.In the OSS movement any of that kind of shit will soon see the emergence of a new band of leaders.
I contribute significantly to OSS. I take on some of what Linus says, and yes I am inspired by some of what he says. However I would not call him *my* leader. I'd only follow him while it makes sense.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
But see, nowhere in the article is it mentioned that the meetings taking place between the "Open Source leaders" and Microsoft are intended to result in binding agreements.
Nowhere in the article is it claimed that any of the "Open Source leaders" are going to sign the "Open Source community" up for any commitments.
Nowhere in the article is it claimed that anyone is speaking for you.
So I don't understand why you are upset at something that isn't happening.
And yes, the word "leader" can mean someone in a position of authority. But that isn't about agreeing to things on your behalf, which you claim. In fact, no-one can agree to things on your behalf, even your boss, because you are always free to walk away; there may be consequences, but that's incidental. In a similar manner, RMS can make agreements on behalf of the FSF, but individual members of the FSF can choose to leave and not be beholden to those agreements.
But again, this isn't happening. Don't be so paranoid.
Yours Sincerely, Michael.
This part is called 'embrace'. Then after everyone
is enjoying their warm fuzzy about finally being
able to interoperate with them they'll whoop out
their friends 'extend' and 'extinguish'
Sounds like they're planning another Xenix since
longhorn isnt impressing anyone.
And interface protocols, like ActiveSync.
There's more to it than just the API.
And it has to be available for software licensed under the GPL. The Sender-ID mess is a good example of their unwillingness to play nicely.
"It's a trap!"
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.