For the elderly, for those that have weakened immune systems, and for young children these changes might have consequences.
How is an event that kills young children incompatible with extinction? Sounds like a pretty good way to do it to me.
Nice leap from "may have consequences" to "kills young children". Lots of things kill young children today, but we aren't facing extinction. Unless you meant it would kill ALL young children, which is even a bigger leap from the original comment.
It might not kill people who are trained to deal with the differences in the levels. For the elderly, for those that have weakened immune systems, and for young children these changes might have consequences.
But that isn't extinction.
People train at altitude for months to get their bodies prepared for thin air. I have a feeling that dinosaurs might not have had the chance (or possibly even the evolutionary ability) to make those changes over a short period of time.
Sherpas LIVE at crazy altitudes, and learned to do so in a (geologically) short period of time.
From TFA: "Gee said the ability to explore right away makes games more engaging than textbooks or lectures. In schools, you have to read 500 pages of biology and then you get to do biology, he said. Of course you only actually read 200. [A video] game allows you to perform before youre competent.
Reading this with a dirty mind is rather funny.
Anyway... There is a lot to be said for wisdom vs knowledge. Of course games aren't going to replace all books, I wish the article put more emphasis on that. I would expect nothing less than a trollish post on Slashdot however. Games may allow people to learn CERTAIN things more quickly than reading about them. But is quicker always better? In war, would you rather go up against someone who has played many online battles in a game, or someone who has studied the subject and knows "The Art of War"? Contrast that with auto repair. Some things you can read about, but until you DO it, you don't get it.
I have a feeling that the best solution lies somewhere in a balance between the two.
The answer seems simple; get politicians' email addresses on spammers' lists. Once they feel our pain, they'll do something.
1. They probably don't read their own email, if they have an email address. Their families probably do though, which leads to...
2. In the words of Napoleon Dynamite..."they probably already ARE!" I think it is fairly safe to assume that if you have an email address, you get spam. Period.
You'd think that they could innovate with their $65 billion in cash. Instead, we get a grand total of - not one, not two - but THREE color schemes for Windows XP. It is arrogance like this that will eventually displace Microsoft. Not that color schemes matter, but the company hasn't come up with anything original in a long time. This is just a good example.
And they spend billions on R&D every year. It is like there is some law that prevents them from coming up with something both useful and non-evil. I have about a hundred ideas that they could use right now.
In the last year, there was an article in Scientific American (I think it was the June issue ) that described Microsoft's R&D department. Essentially, they are buying up some of the best people out there to innovate for them. Of course, the next question is always "What have they produced?" I don't know. Maybe they have produced something, maybe they are getting ready to, who knows? They might just be storing up patents. They have the money and capabilities to innovate, but I think it may take a while to come to fruition.
I am an Opera user, mainly because of a few features that FF hasn't gotten right (for my taste) yet.
Tabbed browsing just feels better to me in Opera
"Continue from last time" rocks
Customizing just feels better to me in Opera
Mouse gestures in Opera are better
Now FF may have these in some form or another, but I like Opera's implementation better. If I close my last tab in Opera (usually via mouse gesture), the browser doesn't close. Last time I checked FF, it did. I can double-click in a blank (no tabs) browser and open a new one. Just little things that I have grown to get used to.
However, printing in Opera sucks. I can print, but things get just cut off. This happens in Windows and Linux. If I need to print something, I open it in FF. Opera crashes or hogs resources on occasion (Linux more often) and I have to kill it. I am not sure why, but it is annoying.
I'll keep trying FF new releases, but so far Opera is my main browser.
There clearly is a lot of work that has gone into this, and the idea sounds really promising, but it looks like it needs a better end-user documentation before it's ready for primetime.
There is no way you pass a 911 or an NSX with your 1988 M3. Porsche 911 is more than 300 HP with 270+ lb-ft of torque. Newer M3's have performance near this, but not 1988 ones.
Which is precisely why I said "it isn't all about what is under the hood". For one, it was at Gingerman Raceway in Michigan. Lots of twistys, not too many straights. When I was at Road America, I went on a session with my instructor. He was in his wife's 530i wagon with automatic transmission. He was passing E36 M3s. Funny thing about HP, people tend to rely on it instead of learning how to drive properly. One guy who was a really great driver suggested buying a 318 track car with full race setup. It is relatively cheap, and you HAVE to learn how to drive well to do very good because you don't have the HP or torque to save you.
On a track there are two factors: the capabilities of the car and the capabilities of the driver. I am not saying I was very good, but a hot car can only do so much. Without a decent driver, it isn't much use. That NSX I passed was a poser. He went off track twice trying to catch me after I passed him. I have heard those cars aren't easy to drive, and I didn't get the impression that he had somewhat of an ego. I was only 1 of 4 non-Porsches there - the NSX, my car, and two friends, one with an Eagle Talon and the other with an E36 M3. It was an event with the Michiana Porsche Club. I am not saying I didn't get passed (a lot) but I have seen good drivers do amazing things with not-so-amazing cars.
I agree. I recently did a case mod, but it was in the opposite direction of most. I got (for free) a dual-Pentium Compaq server from work. I gutted it, and built my PC in it. The thing is massive, steel, and ugly. But it is quiet and cool. There is tons of room inside for when I need to get in there, there is tons of air-flow. It is quiet because it is thick steel, not tinny aluminum. I mounted my hard drives in the SCSI trays, and just removed the backplane so I could hook them up.
I think it is a pretty cool setup. Does it look cool? Not by today's standards. But it isn't for looks. Just like my previous car wasn't about looks (although it looked DAMN sweet). A 1988 BMW M3. And I would argue that it isn't everything under the hood that matters. The E30 M3 had an inline 4cyl that put out 189HP stock, naturally aspirated. It was near-perfectly balanced @ 51/49 front/rear. It was the best car I have ever owned by far, and it wasn't a powerhorse. But I passed Porsche 911s and NSXs with it on the track. (and I couldn't drive it anywhere near its capabilities) It did have a wing, but it was stock from the factory. And it actually had a FUNCTION, unlike most of today's glamwings. It was lean and mean and I miss that car. But I digress.
Sometimes, even Knoppix can't save the day.
I had a 160GB slave drive that I had only had for 5 months. After a reboot (which I don't do often at all, running Mandrake 10.0) the drive was mounted read only. WTF? Unmount it, try to remount it. Uh-oh. Can't remount it. Reboot, sector errors. Crap. Fiddle, fiddle. Boot Knoppix. Nothing worked. Bad sectors on the drive. Fdisk couldn't read it, it kept getting worse and worse. FUBAR. I finally got the RMA from newegg and hopefully will have a new drive soon. Unfortunately, this was my backup drive so it had a lot of data on it. It had 2 ~80GB partitions, so I couldn't even use dd to try and get a disk image because I didn't have that much space available anywhere. There was nothing critical on there, but a real PITA. My whole music collection, which I can get back (about 90%) by re-ripping my CDs. Ugh.
Processor designers might spend more time (i know they already spend some) on innovating new ideas, rather than solving the problems with just ramping up clock speeds.
Dude, that is what Intel was doing until AMD came along and forced them to get into this "keeping up with the Joneses" routine.
I can't decide whether to put a smiley face on this or not. I was being sarcastic, but for all we know it might be partially true!
Perhaps it will serve as a reality check for those who have the wrong (idealistic) conception about this browser... Average users are so quick to jump on a bandwagon.
Methinks you have never met an average person who uses a computer. Unless you think the average Slashdotter is an average person...
Something about retiring a 60 lb behemoth for a seven pound monitor.
While it is true that flat panels are a fraction of the weight of their counterparts, how often do you move your TV around? Unless you want to mount it on a wall (good luck with that viewing angle) you put your TV somewhere and it stays there.
I am not discounting the weight difference, but I really doubt that it has much to do with consumers buying decisions. It is about getting the latest and greatest. My brother commented over the holidays that he wanted to replace his TV with a flat panel one. I asked him what was wrong with his TV, and he said "nothing. Flat panels are cool."
We have been conditioned to buy buy buy, for no particular reason. It's all about the stuff.
KLOV is an awesome site. I remember when it first came online and thought - this is where the web is great. I mean, there were text lists of stuff like this on rec.games.video.arcade.collecting, but something like this blows that away.
Do you have any idea how much space 100k+ [porn] pics would take up, on paper?
Yes. Yes I do.:-)
I subscribed to Playboy and Penthouse for years, and have every issue during that time. They are in several boxes in my garage. What to do with them? I'd hate to throw them away, and shipping wouldn't make it worthwhile on eBay. Hmmm, maybe as a tip for the trash collectors this year....
Having said that, I just had a nearly full 120GB hard drive crash. Unfortunately, it was my backup drive, and there were some things on there that I hadn't backed up offline anywhere yet. If a photo burns it is gone. I am still hoping that I can get some of my data back from this drive.
then I watched Bush administration officials getting make up put on, a grainy image of Bush getting ready to speak before the entire nation...
Do you get the symbolism at all? The opening scenes shows them putting on their makeup and getting primped for the cameras. The ending scene shows them taking off their mics as the cameras go off. The movie is bookended with scenes of them putting on their "game faces" so to speak, like actors going on stage. Get it yet?
Bush officials shaking hands with ARABS IN HEADRESSES (the headdress means they are 3vil).
No, that says nothing about them being evil. The simple point was that it was all about business.
Don't get me wrong, I can see what Moore is trying to do. If you just lap up what he puts in the bowl, you are a simple minded idiot. You have to question what he puts in the movie, and some people have done so very well. But what kills me is that people will focus on what he gets wrong instead of looking at what he got right. People love to point out inaccuracies in what he implies, without addressing what he says. On 9/13 the airspace in the US was *technically* open, so those 50 or whatever Arab nationals that were hurried out of the country had every right to fly. Right? How about asking the question WHY? When every other plane in the country was grounded, WHY were they allowed to leave? WHY were they given preferential treatment, especially under the circumstances. I don't know about you, but I haven't forgotten how I felt after 9/11. I felt like that for weeks, and 2 days after it happened these people were given special treatment. I am not implying anything by that, I just think the question needs to be answered - WHY? I have yet to hear an answer that is acceptable.
And I wasn't convinced of Kerry's leadership ability, but I was sure convinced of Bush's. I hate to say it, but I would have voted for whoever went up against Bush. He is bad for this country, and we are going to be feeling the reprocussions from his presidency for a long long time.
ever hear of bob marley? ella fitzgerald? even u-freakin-2 manages to stuff some serious messages into their songs.
Hey, I am not saying songs aren't powerful - the original poster was talking about them actually making change. Good point on Bob Marley, I actually love his music. This is a fine point, but I think that songs are representations of what constitutes change. I can think of several groups that changed my opinions on things, but I can't think of one song in particular. The original point was about giving awards to songs. Bob Marley and Public Enemy did a lot to change - or at least be a catalyst for change - in my life. But I can't really point to one particular song. I guess I should have been more clear in my post.
Michael Moore is very effective at using fear to manipulate his audience.
How so? He showed off-camera footage of smarmy newscasters who were more concerned about their hair than a little girl that just got killed. Watch the news, or promos for the news, and pay attention. That is all. It isn't anything new, but he shone a light on it.
Remember when there were all kinds of terror alerts? People were going out and buying gas masks and plastic and duct tape to seal themselves inside their houses. My parents did this, even though they live in a town of 10,000 that is 200 miles from any major metropolitan city (St. Louis) I live 30 miles from Chicago, and I didn't buy ONE SINGLE THING to protect me from terrorist attacks because I didn't believe it! I still don't believe it. We have been taught to be afraid, we have learned to be manipulated. Now, at Christmas time, it is more evident than ever.
I was going to end this with a movie or a song that breaks the rules I have laid out above but I can't think of any. If they do exist they don't get the recognition they deserve.
Songs are a little tricky, because they aren't very long. It is tougher to pack a message in there. But as far as movies go...
Fahrenheit 9/11. Regardless of what your opinion of it is, it got people across the nation talking and thinking about the issues at hand. To paraphrase a comedian "You didn't hear people arguing about whether the guys in the movie 'White Chicks' really could have been mistaken for women."
Bowling for Columbine. This movie hit me. I haven't looked at the popular media the same way since. On the way home from the theater, as my wife and I were talking about how the media uses scare tactics, we heard a radio commercial for the local news: "Could the milk you buy and give to your kids cause serious health problems? Tune it to Fox News at 9:00 to find out."
Schlinder's List. It may not have changed the world, but it was quite a powerful film.
There are other movies out there that have very interesting perspectives and kind of slip beyond pure entertainment. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a good one. Anything that is visually interesting can be more than just mindless entertainment. Spirited Away, The Cell (save the bad acting), The City of Lost Children. Some re-tell classic tales, like O Brother Where Art Thou? I am sure I am forgetting some big ones, but you get the idea. Movies CAN be more than just mindless entertainment, and honestly who cares if they get an award for it? Do you think it will matter if Quake or Half-Life get a lifetime achievement award?
I didn't see the awards show, but I would guess that it was pretty representative of the game industry. That is, after all, what award shows represent - the industry. Even the MTV Movie Awards, which was interesting the first few times it aired (with their innovative categories like Best Kiss and Best Fight Scene) has become tired and stale. It is quite representative of the MTV industry (if you will).
To me the underlying OS kernel should be irrelevant. I should be able to use KDE on an NT kernel, or a Window's desktop overtop of a linux kernel, etc..
Absolutely. The real problem with achieving this is NOT the OSS community, but Microsoft. One wants to cooperate, the other doesn't. At one point Microsoft was capable but unwilling to cooperate. Now I think they are so far down the other path that I don't think that they are even capable of it.
Slashdot Mirror
How is an event that kills young children incompatible with extinction? Sounds like a pretty good way to do it to me.
Nice leap from "may have consequences" to "kills young children". Lots of things kill young children today, but we aren't facing extinction. Unless you meant it would kill ALL young children, which is even a bigger leap from the original comment.
But that isn't extinction.
People train at altitude for months to get their bodies prepared for thin air. I have a feeling that dinosaurs might not have had the chance (or possibly even the evolutionary ability) to make those changes over a short period of time.
Sherpas LIVE at crazy altitudes, and learned to do so in a (geologically) short period of time.
Reading this with a dirty mind is rather funny.
Anyway... There is a lot to be said for wisdom vs knowledge. Of course games aren't going to replace all books, I wish the article put more emphasis on that. I would expect nothing less than a trollish post on Slashdot however. Games may allow people to learn CERTAIN things more quickly than reading about them. But is quicker always better? In war, would you rather go up against someone who has played many online battles in a game, or someone who has studied the subject and knows "The Art of War"? Contrast that with auto repair. Some things you can read about, but until you DO it, you don't get it.
I have a feeling that the best solution lies somewhere in a balance between the two.
Maybe you'll bang a hot nurse or something.
Then it can be her worst day ever.
Does SCO have any code to show?
1. They probably don't read their own email, if they have an email address. Their families probably do though, which leads to...
2. In the words of Napoleon Dynamite..."they probably already ARE!" I think it is fairly safe to assume that if you have an email address, you get spam. Period.
I think that they just have bigger fish to fry.
And they spend billions on R&D every year. It is like there is some law that prevents them from coming up with something both useful and non-evil. I have about a hundred ideas that they could use right now.
In the last year, there was an article in Scientific American (I think it was the June issue ) that described Microsoft's R&D department. Essentially, they are buying up some of the best people out there to innovate for them. Of course, the next question is always "What have they produced?" I don't know. Maybe they have produced something, maybe they are getting ready to, who knows? They might just be storing up patents. They have the money and capabilities to innovate, but I think it may take a while to come to fruition.
Tabbed browsing just feels better to me in Opera
"Continue from last time" rocks
Customizing just feels better to me in Opera
Mouse gestures in Opera are better
Now FF may have these in some form or another, but I like Opera's implementation better. If I close my last tab in Opera (usually via mouse gesture), the browser doesn't close. Last time I checked FF, it did. I can double-click in a blank (no tabs) browser and open a new one. Just little things that I have grown to get used to.
However, printing in Opera sucks. I can print, but things get just cut off. This happens in Windows and Linux. If I need to print something, I open it in FF. Opera crashes or hogs resources on occasion (Linux more often) and I have to kill it. I am not sure why, but it is annoying.
I'll keep trying FF new releases, but so far Opera is my main browser.
Whaaa?!? On Freshmeat? That's unpossible.
Damn, that was awful.
Which is precisely why I said "it isn't all about what is under the hood". For one, it was at Gingerman Raceway in Michigan. Lots of twistys, not too many straights. When I was at Road America, I went on a session with my instructor. He was in his wife's 530i wagon with automatic transmission. He was passing E36 M3s. Funny thing about HP, people tend to rely on it instead of learning how to drive properly. One guy who was a really great driver suggested buying a 318 track car with full race setup. It is relatively cheap, and you HAVE to learn how to drive well to do very good because you don't have the HP or torque to save you.
On a track there are two factors: the capabilities of the car and the capabilities of the driver. I am not saying I was very good, but a hot car can only do so much. Without a decent driver, it isn't much use. That NSX I passed was a poser. He went off track twice trying to catch me after I passed him. I have heard those cars aren't easy to drive, and I didn't get the impression that he had somewhat of an ego. I was only 1 of 4 non-Porsches there - the NSX, my car, and two friends, one with an Eagle Talon and the other with an E36 M3. It was an event with the Michiana Porsche Club. I am not saying I didn't get passed (a lot) but I have seen good drivers do amazing things with not-so-amazing cars.
I think it is a pretty cool setup. Does it look cool? Not by today's standards. But it isn't for looks. Just like my previous car wasn't about looks (although it looked DAMN sweet). A 1988 BMW M3. And I would argue that it isn't everything under the hood that matters. The E30 M3 had an inline 4cyl that put out 189HP stock, naturally aspirated. It was near-perfectly balanced @ 51/49 front/rear. It was the best car I have ever owned by far, and it wasn't a powerhorse. But I passed Porsche 911s and NSXs with it on the track. (and I couldn't drive it anywhere near its capabilities) It did have a wing, but it was stock from the factory. And it actually had a FUNCTION, unlike most of today's glamwings. It was lean and mean and I miss that car. But I digress.
Sometimes, even Knoppix can't save the day.
I had a 160GB slave drive that I had only had for 5 months. After a reboot (which I don't do often at all, running Mandrake 10.0) the drive was mounted read only. WTF? Unmount it, try to remount it. Uh-oh. Can't remount it. Reboot, sector errors. Crap. Fiddle, fiddle. Boot Knoppix. Nothing worked. Bad sectors on the drive. Fdisk couldn't read it, it kept getting worse and worse. FUBAR. I finally got the RMA from newegg and hopefully will have a new drive soon. Unfortunately, this was my backup drive so it had a lot of data on it. It had 2 ~80GB partitions, so I couldn't even use dd to try and get a disk image because I didn't have that much space available anywhere. There was nothing critical on there, but a real PITA. My whole music collection, which I can get back (about 90%) by re-ripping my CDs. Ugh.
I wonder why SCO didn't make the list with its claims of infringing code in Linux.
Dude, that is what Intel was doing until AMD came along and forced them to get into this "keeping up with the Joneses" routine.
I can't decide whether to put a smiley face on this or not. I was being sarcastic, but for all we know it might be partially true!
Methinks you have never met an average person who uses a computer. Unless you think the average Slashdotter is an average person...
While it is true that flat panels are a fraction of the weight of their counterparts, how often do you move your TV around? Unless you want to mount it on a wall (good luck with that viewing angle) you put your TV somewhere and it stays there.
I am not discounting the weight difference, but I really doubt that it has much to do with consumers buying decisions. It is about getting the latest and greatest. My brother commented over the holidays that he wanted to replace his TV with a flat panel one. I asked him what was wrong with his TV, and he said "nothing. Flat panels are cool."
We have been conditioned to buy buy buy, for no particular reason. It's all about the stuff.
Because it came out after ROTJ.
Star Wars - 1983
ROTJ - 1984
ESB - 1985
KLOV is an awesome site. I remember when it first came online and thought - this is where the web is great. I mean, there were text lists of stuff like this on rec.games.video.arcade.collecting, but something like this blows that away.
See, now your trolling has become too obvious. Don't try so hard next time.
Yes. Yes I do. :-)
I subscribed to Playboy and Penthouse for years, and have every issue during that time. They are in several boxes in my garage. What to do with them? I'd hate to throw them away, and shipping wouldn't make it worthwhile on eBay. Hmmm, maybe as a tip for the trash collectors this year....
Having said that, I just had a nearly full 120GB hard drive crash. Unfortunately, it was my backup drive, and there were some things on there that I hadn't backed up offline anywhere yet. If a photo burns it is gone. I am still hoping that I can get some of my data back from this drive.
Do you get the symbolism at all? The opening scenes shows them putting on their makeup and getting primped for the cameras. The ending scene shows them taking off their mics as the cameras go off. The movie is bookended with scenes of them putting on their "game faces" so to speak, like actors going on stage. Get it yet?
Bush officials shaking hands with ARABS IN HEADRESSES (the headdress means they are 3vil).
No, that says nothing about them being evil. The simple point was that it was all about business.
Don't get me wrong, I can see what Moore is trying to do. If you just lap up what he puts in the bowl, you are a simple minded idiot. You have to question what he puts in the movie, and some people have done so very well. But what kills me is that people will focus on what he gets wrong instead of looking at what he got right. People love to point out inaccuracies in what he implies, without addressing what he says. On 9/13 the airspace in the US was *technically* open, so those 50 or whatever Arab nationals that were hurried out of the country had every right to fly. Right? How about asking the question WHY? When every other plane in the country was grounded, WHY were they allowed to leave? WHY were they given preferential treatment, especially under the circumstances. I don't know about you, but I haven't forgotten how I felt after 9/11. I felt like that for weeks, and 2 days after it happened these people were given special treatment. I am not implying anything by that, I just think the question needs to be answered - WHY? I have yet to hear an answer that is acceptable.
And I wasn't convinced of Kerry's leadership ability, but I was sure convinced of Bush's. I hate to say it, but I would have voted for whoever went up against Bush. He is bad for this country, and we are going to be feeling the reprocussions from his presidency for a long long time.
Hey, I am not saying songs aren't powerful - the original poster was talking about them actually making change. Good point on Bob Marley, I actually love his music. This is a fine point, but I think that songs are representations of what constitutes change. I can think of several groups that changed my opinions on things, but I can't think of one song in particular. The original point was about giving awards to songs. Bob Marley and Public Enemy did a lot to change - or at least be a catalyst for change - in my life. But I can't really point to one particular song. I guess I should have been more clear in my post.
How so? He showed off-camera footage of smarmy newscasters who were more concerned about their hair than a little girl that just got killed. Watch the news, or promos for the news, and pay attention. That is all. It isn't anything new, but he shone a light on it.
Remember when there were all kinds of terror alerts? People were going out and buying gas masks and plastic and duct tape to seal themselves inside their houses. My parents did this, even though they live in a town of 10,000 that is 200 miles from any major metropolitan city (St. Louis) I live 30 miles from Chicago, and I didn't buy ONE SINGLE THING to protect me from terrorist attacks because I didn't believe it! I still don't believe it. We have been taught to be afraid, we have learned to be manipulated. Now, at Christmas time, it is more evident than ever.
Songs are a little tricky, because they aren't very long. It is tougher to pack a message in there. But as far as movies go...
Fahrenheit 9/11. Regardless of what your opinion of it is, it got people across the nation talking and thinking about the issues at hand. To paraphrase a comedian "You didn't hear people arguing about whether the guys in the movie 'White Chicks' really could have been mistaken for women."
Bowling for Columbine. This movie hit me. I haven't looked at the popular media the same way since. On the way home from the theater, as my wife and I were talking about how the media uses scare tactics, we heard a radio commercial for the local news: "Could the milk you buy and give to your kids cause serious health problems? Tune it to Fox News at 9:00 to find out."
Schlinder's List. It may not have changed the world, but it was quite a powerful film.
There are other movies out there that have very interesting perspectives and kind of slip beyond pure entertainment. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a good one. Anything that is visually interesting can be more than just mindless entertainment. Spirited Away, The Cell (save the bad acting), The City of Lost Children. Some re-tell classic tales, like O Brother Where Art Thou? I am sure I am forgetting some big ones, but you get the idea. Movies CAN be more than just mindless entertainment, and honestly who cares if they get an award for it? Do you think it will matter if Quake or Half-Life get a lifetime achievement award?
I didn't see the awards show, but I would guess that it was pretty representative of the game industry. That is, after all, what award shows represent - the industry. Even the MTV Movie Awards, which was interesting the first few times it aired (with their innovative categories like Best Kiss and Best Fight Scene) has become tired and stale. It is quite representative of the MTV industry (if you will).
Absolutely. The real problem with achieving this is NOT the OSS community, but Microsoft. One wants to cooperate, the other doesn't. At one point Microsoft was capable but unwilling to cooperate. Now I think they are so far down the other path that I don't think that they are even capable of it.