OK, so that's fair enough, but is there any real reason for Devuan to behave as anything other than a normal Debian derivative?
When they were trying to "eradicate every last work by Mr. Pottering", including libsystemd0, that wasn't going to work, since Debian doesn't really have a workable way to have two versions of the same package, differently linked (well, not without an explosion of foo-without-libsystemd packages, which wasn't going to get past the ftpmasters).
Now that they seem to have rowed back a little from that position, it seems like the main thing is the maintenance of alternative packages, and the testing of the coherent whole, both of which could be pushed upstream to some extent.
If all the packages could be pushed upstream, then Devuan might even be able to be a Debian Blend, or perhaps even a Debian Pure Blend, which would then allow them to release in a timely manner. Even without that, I'm sure that there are Debian users that would appreciate the option of using the main components like eudev.
Looking for evidence of attempts to package eudev for Debian, this is about it as far as I can see:
Given that the packages now exist, it ought to be pretty trivial to upload them to Debian. That is likely to attract more people to use them, resulting in more effort being available to keep them maintained in future, so everyone wins.
If there's some reason that they cannot be uploaded to Debian in their current state, then it would be helpful to have the ITP ( https://wiki.debian.org/ITP ) in the BTS ( https://wiki.debian.org/BTS ), with blockers being described, providing somewhere to discuss how to address that situation.
Are you under the impression that Debian does not offer a choice of inits?
If so, you are mistaken.
If you think that you'd have been better off with some other init, why did you not just install another init?
I think it's a bit of a shame that so many people interpret the existence of Devuan as an assertion that Debian has somehow forced systemd upon our users, whereas in fact a lot of effort has been spent on making sure that systemd is just a default that can be easily overridden by installing an alternative init. This is particularly unjust because most of the effort required was provided by the maintainers of the systemd package, so they did the work to allow people to use other inits, which was pretty selfless of them, and meanwhile they get all the grief from people complaining (wrongly) about being forced to use systemd.
Nice to see that you're still taking an interest in Debian;-)
Perhaps you can explain why you favour Devuan over simply running Debian with the init of your choice installed.
The reason that I ask is that (prompted by a comment down the thread) I just tried out the live version of Devuan ASCII, and I see that is is true that Devuan now includes libsystemd0.
While I personally see nothing wrong with that, I've gained the strong impression that the fundamental reason for setting up Devuan in the first place was to avoid including that library.
If one is motivated to avoid every scrap of systemd, then I don't see how Devuan can now be considered satisfactory.
If on the other hand one is willing to accept having libsystemd0 (so that programs can sensibly accommodate running on systems with and without systemd) then I'm wondering what is supposed to be better about using Devuan than simply using Debian having selected one of the several alternative inits.
Is this about bugs that are being left unjustifiably unfixed in Debian?
If that's the case, and there are reasonable bugs that are being ignored, then I'm confident that the Technical Committee would give such cases a sympathetic hearing (and I say that as a current member of the committee).
if I have a problem with e.g. my dovecot instance on a server, with rsyslogd (as default installed on Debian) I get the fun of guessing which of mail.log, mail.info, or mail.err contains the messages I might like to see (with the mild suspicion that I ought to also glance at debug.log as well, just in case), then if I like to see things in chronological order I have the added amusment of running a command line like this:
Intel do have lawyers, and free software folk that understand licensing.
I'm sure they are capable of working out that all they need to do to be in compliance is to include the copyright notice somewhere in the binary blob that is ME.
Has anyone actually been in a position to check if they did that or not?
If not, I suspect that this is a non-story.
Also, even if AST were upset enough to sue (which does not appear to be the case), I don't suppose it would cost much to shut him up.
Are there any other copyright holders with standing here? (Minix used to be a one-person thing, but perhaps he's been accepting diverse contributions since relaxing the license). Even so, if they did include some sort of copyright notice, there's nothing for other copyright holders to say either.
The summary misleadingly opens with "systemd, the init system", whereas what we're talking about is "systemd-resolved, a part of the SystemD project" (or some such -- I'm a bit vague about the capitalisation TBH).
Anyway, the point is that this bug is not in the init code.
On Debian, we don't even execute this code by default.
So, if you see red and start screaming whenever you see the sequence of characters: s y s t e m d then I'm sorry if you're still reading this, but perhaps you should consider calming down long enough to notice that systemd is both the name of the init program, and the project that also includes a lot of other bits and pieces that are not even needed quite often, and can generally be run without having systemd running as init.
tmux is bigger from what I remember (if you include all the libraries it pulls in that are not already present in Debian Installer).
Also, screen gives you the ability to talk to serial ports, which might be quite useful for embedded use, which is one of the primary use-cases for this (since that is a time where you're talking to the installer over a serial/ssh connection and therefore don't have access to multiple virtual terminals)
If you're already a user of such software, and prefer tmux (as I do too), then using screen for d-i means you can simply type Ctrl-A, rather than needing to escape Ctrl-B to deal with nested tmuxs.
When I got into computing (in the '80's), the teachers at my school knew as little about it as we did -- we learned together.
Within a couple of years a friend and I implemented a Forth setup as a replacement OS on a machine that was shipped with C/PM (writing the floppy controller in machine code etc.). None of the teachers had a clue what we were doing, but they were quite interested, and very encouraging.
I would suggest that we should not bother with teachers, beyond asking them to occasionally ask the kids what they're doing, and then say how clever that sounds.
The result is: apt-get will automatically suggest removing systemd and install sysvinit-core
That may work until systemd is a hard dependency for everything on your machine.
CAPTCHA: sleepers
this is Debian remember -- it'll work as long as anyone thinks it's worth the effort to make it work.
If the volume of noise made by the anti crowd had any correlation with available effort then that would indicate that it would work forever, but my suspicion is that those people are all mouth and no trousers.
When I upgraded to Jessie, it installed systemd, and the laptop started going into suspend all the time. I'd unsuspend it, and it would suspend again 30 seconds later.
In diagnosing it, I found that using journalctl is much nicer than grepping though the tangle of partial and redundant logs that syslogd generates -- how is it that that particular collective itch seems not to have provoked anyone to scratch it previously in the decades we've been suffering it?
I also discovered that the laptop's lid switch was stuck in, and needed a squirt of lubricant to get it working again -- for some reason sysvinit/acpi/etc. conspired to ignore that fact.
One gets the impression that the bulk of people still whining about systemd have either never used it, or have very little real experience of the tangle of string and duct tape that is sysvinit. If whining about Debian, they also seem to be incapable of basic reading comprehension -- One only uses the word "default" when other choices are available.
... so I took a blow-torch to my car to remove the hardpoint to which one can attach a towing hook.
Clearly the presence of the hardpoint is all part of the caravan club's conspiracy.
Having removed the hardpoint I can rest easy that I won't find myself suddenly towing a caravan.
OK, so the structural integrity of the chasis is somewhat compromised, and I'll probably end up losing control of the vehicle at some point as a result of that, but the risk is totally worth it to avoid the risk of caravan infection.
I really don't know what the designers were thinking. How could they inflict this creeping caravanism on me by making the structure at the back of my car confom to caravan-club standards?
does lots more than just sync you files, and can do that with proper encryption (GPG) to a load of cloud providers, or to your own servers, or without needing a server at all. I could go on, but it would be better to just follow the links.
It strikes me that I'm extremely unlikely to be interested in domains below many (or any) of the listed TLDs (having glanced down the list) so why not teach the silly sods a lesson by blackisting them in bind by default, and thus make ICANN get the blame they deserve for peddling this nonsense.
as proven by Sugata Mitra (of Hole in the Wall project fame), if you get rid of the teachers and provide one computer per 4 children, and let the kids collaborate, they teach one another
There are four appeals, but Denmark's not one of them -- Venezuela is though.
Denmark are just part of the general howl of protest from people who've looked at the heap of excrement that is DIS 29500 and found it wanting, and/or were in one of the many countries where the behaviour of their National Bodies has made it clear that their local Microsoft lackeys have been interfering with what should be a process focussed on technical merit, not on whether personal gain can be maximised.
As you can see from emails released into evidence they set out to kill DR-DOS in 1991, by detecting it and then faking errors in Windows if it noticed DR-DOS beneath it.
If I had prior art for January, 2004 and Amazon invented it (and had proof they did this) in December, 2003 then my prior art wouldn't be early enough.
True, but if you could show that you'd invented it independently, that would certainly go a long way to proving the obviousness of the idea to a professional in the field, which is another ground on which patents can be rejected (in the UK at least, and I would hope in the US too)
Sadly, and as one would expect, this all comes too late to make any difference to MediaPlayer's market share.
Perhaps the obligation to publish interfaces will bear fruit, but only if MS get appropriately punished in a timely manner when what they initially publish turns out to bear no relation to what is actually in 'doze, or does relate to it, but doesn't actually contain sufficient information to get the job done.
In the mean time, the BBC have handed control of their on-line content over to MS in the form of the BBC iPlayer, which relies on MS DRM. By the time that the EU notices that, they'll have killed off the currently vibrant set-top box market, and the bulk of them will be running some form of WinCE. At least that's the danger, which people a need to get excited about now if it's not to come to pass.
I can't really see that many people having a computer but no TV
Probably not, although we do exist.
I must say that as someone that has BBC Radio 4 playing almost continuosly, I do feel somewhat guilty about not paying for it, but my repeated offers to pay for a Radio License fall on deaf ears.
They won't give me a Half-a-Bee License either, for poor Eric here *bzzzz*
It had occured to me that the alternative explanation was that Poland & Holland were now acting as a (probably informal) tag team, allowing them to spin out their reasons for delays to the maximum duration (hence the "seem" in what I wrote).
Slashdot Mirror
Bruce,
OK, so that's fair enough, but is there any real reason for Devuan to behave as anything other than a normal Debian derivative?
When they were trying to "eradicate every last work by Mr. Pottering", including libsystemd0, that wasn't going to work, since Debian doesn't really have a workable way to have two versions of the same package, differently linked (well, not without an explosion of foo-without-libsystemd packages, which wasn't going to get past the ftpmasters).
Now that they seem to have rowed back a little from that position, it seems like the main thing is the maintenance of alternative packages, and the testing of the coherent whole, both of which could be pushed upstream to some extent.
If all the packages could be pushed upstream, then Devuan might even be able to be a Debian Blend, or perhaps even a Debian Pure Blend, which would then allow them to release in a timely manner. Even without that, I'm sure that there are Debian users that would appreciate the option of using the main components like eudev.
Looking for evidence of attempts to package eudev for Debian, this is about it as far as I can see:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bi...
and
https://lists.debian.org/debia...
neither of which have gone anywhere since.
Given that the packages now exist, it ought to be pretty trivial to upload them to Debian. That is likely to attract more people to use them, resulting in more effort being available to keep them maintained in future, so everyone wins.
If there's some reason that they cannot be uploaded to Debian in their current state, then it would be helpful to have the ITP ( https://wiki.debian.org/ITP ) in the BTS ( https://wiki.debian.org/BTS ), with blockers being described, providing somewhere to discuss how to address that situation.
Cheers, Phil.
Hi Bruce,
Are you under the impression that Debian does not offer a choice of inits?
If so, you are mistaken.
If you think that you'd have been better off with some other init, why did you not just install another init?
I think it's a bit of a shame that so many people interpret the existence of Devuan as an assertion that Debian has somehow forced systemd upon our users, whereas in fact a lot of effort has been spent on making sure that systemd is just a default that can be easily overridden by installing an alternative init. This is particularly unjust because most of the effort required was provided by the maintainers of the systemd package, so they did the work to allow people to use other inits, which was pretty selfless of them, and meanwhile they get all the grief from people complaining (wrongly) about being forced to use systemd.
Cheers, Phil.
Hi Bruce,
Nice to see that you're still taking an interest in Debian ;-)
Perhaps you can explain why you favour Devuan over simply running Debian with the init of your choice installed.
The reason that I ask is that (prompted by a comment down the thread) I just tried out the live version of Devuan ASCII, and I see that is is true that Devuan now includes libsystemd0.
While I personally see nothing wrong with that, I've gained the strong impression that the fundamental reason for setting up Devuan in the first place was to avoid including that library.
If one is motivated to avoid every scrap of systemd, then I don't see how Devuan can now be considered satisfactory.
If on the other hand one is willing to accept having libsystemd0 (so that programs can sensibly accommodate running on systems with and without systemd) then I'm wondering what is supposed to be better about using Devuan than simply using Debian having selected one of the several alternative inits.
Is this about bugs that are being left unjustifiably unfixed in Debian?
If that's the case, and there are reasonable bugs that are being ignored, then I'm confident that the Technical Committee would give such cases a sympathetic hearing (and I say that as a current member of the committee).
Cheers, Phil.
Debian doesn't enable systemd-resolved by default, so they didn't even need to look at a manual to avoid that one.
if I have a problem with e.g. my dovecot instance on a server, with rsyslogd (as default installed on Debian) I get the fun of guessing which of mail.log, mail.info, or mail.err contains the messages I might like to see (with the mild suspicion that I ought to also glance at debug.log as well, just in case), then if I like to see things in chronological order I have the added amusment of running a command line like this:
zcat $(ls -tr /var/log/mail.log.*.gz) | cat /var/log/mail.log - | grep dovecot | grep $whatever_I_really_wanted_to_see
and I'll get most of what I'm looking for, along with anything else that contains the word dovecot.
[BTW hands up anyone that thinks a gzip file is a text file]
whereas with systemd it's just so bloody tedious:
journalctl -u dovecot | grep $whatever_I_really_wanted_to_see
Where's the fun in that?
Intel do have lawyers, and free software folk that understand licensing.
I'm sure they are capable of working out that all they need to do to be in compliance is to include the copyright notice somewhere in the binary blob that is ME.
Has anyone actually been in a position to check if they did that or not?
If not, I suspect that this is a non-story.
Also, even if AST were upset enough to sue (which does not appear to be the case), I don't suppose it would cost much to shut him up.
Are there any other copyright holders with standing here? (Minix used to be a one-person thing, but perhaps he's been accepting diverse contributions since relaxing the license). Even so, if they did include some sort of copyright notice, there's nothing for other copyright holders to say either.
The summary misleadingly opens with "systemd, the init system", whereas what we're talking about is "systemd-resolved, a part of the SystemD project" (or some such -- I'm a bit vague about the capitalisation TBH).
Anyway, the point is that this bug is not in the init code.
On Debian, we don't even execute this code by default.
So, if you see red and start screaming whenever you see the sequence of characters: s y s t e m d then I'm sorry if you're still reading this, but perhaps you should consider calming down long enough to notice that systemd is both the name of the init program, and the project that also includes a lot of other bits and pieces that are not even needed quite often, and can generally be run without having systemd running as init.
tmux is bigger from what I remember (if you include all the libraries it pulls in that are not already present in Debian Installer).
Also, screen gives you the ability to talk to serial ports, which might be quite useful for embedded use, which is one of the primary use-cases for this (since that is a time where you're talking to the installer over a serial/ssh connection and therefore don't have access to multiple virtual terminals)
If you're already a user of such software, and prefer tmux (as I do too), then using screen for d-i means you can simply type Ctrl-A, rather than needing to escape Ctrl-B to deal with nested tmuxs.
When I got into computing (in the '80's), the teachers at my school knew as little about it as we did -- we learned together.
Within a couple of years a friend and I implemented a Forth setup as a replacement OS on a machine that was shipped with C/PM (writing the floppy controller in machine code etc.). None of the teachers had a clue what we were doing, but they were quite interested, and very encouraging.
I would suggest that we should not bother with teachers, beyond asking them to occasionally ask the kids what they're doing, and then say how clever that sounds.
This is the Minimally invasive education approach pioneered by Sugata Mitra.
As Aurtur C. Clark said to him: "Any teacher that can be replaced by a computer ... should be!"
There's no point poisoning the minds of the next generation with the befuddled understanding of teachers with little aptitude for the subject.
Let's not overreact:
apt-get purge systemd works just fine.
The result is: apt-get will automatically suggest removing systemd and install sysvinit-core
That may work until systemd is a hard dependency for everything on your machine.
CAPTCHA: sleepers
this is Debian remember -- it'll work as long as anyone thinks it's worth the effort to make it work.
If the volume of noise made by the anti crowd had any correlation with available effort then that would indicate that it would work forever, but my suspicion is that those people are all mouth and no trousers.
When I upgraded to Jessie, it installed systemd, and the laptop started going into suspend all the time. I'd unsuspend it, and it would suspend again 30 seconds later.
In diagnosing it, I found that using journalctl is much nicer than grepping though the tangle of partial and redundant logs that syslogd generates -- how is it that that particular collective itch seems not to have provoked anyone to scratch it previously in the decades we've been suffering it?
I also discovered that the laptop's lid switch was stuck in, and needed a squirt of lubricant to get it working again -- for some reason sysvinit/acpi/etc. conspired to ignore that fact.
One gets the impression that the bulk of people still whining about systemd have either never used it, or have very little real experience of the tangle of string and duct tape that is sysvinit. If whining about Debian, they also seem to be incapable of basic reading comprehension -- One only uses the word "default" when other choices are available.
... so I took a blow-torch to my car to remove the hardpoint to which one can attach a towing hook.
Clearly the presence of the hardpoint is all part of the caravan club's conspiracy.
Having removed the hardpoint I can rest easy that I won't find myself suddenly towing a caravan.
OK, so the structural integrity of the chasis is somewhat compromised, and I'll probably end up losing control of the vehicle at some point as a result of that, but the risk is totally worth it to avoid the risk of caravan infection.
I really don't know what the designers were thinking. How could they inflict this creeping caravanism on me by making the structure at the back of my car confom to caravan-club standards?
=-=-=-
As for libsystemd0, for a sane view read:
https://lists.debian.org/debia...
git-annex (and git-annex assistant for those that don't like CLI):
https://git-annex.branchable.com/assistant/
https://git-annex.branchable.com/
does lots more than just sync you files, and can do that with proper encryption (GPG) to a load of cloud providers, or to your own servers, or without needing a server at all. I could go on, but it would be better to just follow the links.
Tahoe-LAFS may be something like what you're after:
Quite -- what do you need 5 for? ;-)
So, did you lose track of your original log-in or something Luke?
I had somehow assumed that it was you that pointed me at /. in the first place.
It strikes me that I'm extremely unlikely to be interested in domains below many (or any) of the listed TLDs (having glanced down the list) so why not teach the silly sods a lesson by blackisting them in bind by default, and thus make ICANN get the blame they deserve for peddling this nonsense.
The last time I had the misfortune to have my brain polluted by a Daily Mail story was when sitting bored in a physio's waiting room.
Flipping the rag open at random, I see a headline something like:
87% of Britons now members of a persecuted minority
this little nugget of wisdom had apparently been assembled by taking the percentages of various "minorities" and adding them all together.
The groups included:
51% Women
*cough* minority?
and then:
12% Single Mothers
[SubEd Are you sure we can simply add that number to the Women?] [Ed: yeah, no problem]
as proven by Sugata Mitra (of Hole in the Wall project fame), if you get rid of the teachers and provide one computer per 4 children, and let the kids collaborate, they teach one another
http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_the_child_driven_education.html
The quote from Arthur C Clark is particularly telling: Any teacher that can be replaced by a computer should be replaced by a computer.
There are four appeals, but Denmark's not one of them -- Venezuela is though.
Denmark are just part of the general howl of protest from people who've looked at the heap of excrement that is DIS 29500 and found it wanting, and/or were in one of the many countries where the behaviour of their National Bodies has made it clear that their local Microsoft lackeys have been interfering with what should be a process focussed on technical merit, not on whether personal gain can be maximised.
As you can see from emails released into evidence they set out to kill DR-DOS in 1991, by detecting it and then faking errors in Windows if it noticed DR-DOS beneath it.
Sounds pretty evil to me.
If I had prior art for January, 2004 and Amazon invented it (and had proof they did this) in December, 2003 then my prior art wouldn't be early enough.
True, but if you could show that you'd invented it independently, that would certainly go a long way to proving the obviousness of the idea to a professional in the field, which is another ground on which patents can be rejected (in the UK at least, and I would hope in the US too)
Sadly, and as one would expect, this all comes too late to make any difference to MediaPlayer's market share.
Perhaps the obligation to publish interfaces will bear fruit, but only if MS get appropriately punished in a timely manner when what they initially publish turns out to bear no relation to what is actually in 'doze, or does relate to it, but doesn't actually contain sufficient information to get the job done.
In the mean time, the BBC have handed control of their on-line content over to MS in the form of the BBC iPlayer, which relies on MS DRM. By the time that the EU notices that, they'll have killed off the currently vibrant set-top box market, and the bulk of them will be running some form of WinCE. At least that's the danger, which people a need to get excited about now if it's not to come to pass.
All 14 CDs include EVERY package (...) and source.
:-)
Almost right, 14 CDs is just the binaries (on average, several architectures take 13, ia64 takes 15)
Source takes 15 more CDs
For a full set of CDs (that only an anal collector would actually want) for all 11 archs, and the source, you'll need 164 CDs
As you say, the netinst image is the way to go, unless you want to send a copy to a friend who has no internet connection.
I can't really see that many people having a computer but no TV
Probably not, although we do exist.
I must say that as someone that has BBC Radio 4 playing almost continuosly, I do feel somewhat guilty about not paying for it, but my repeated offers to pay for a Radio License fall on deaf ears.
They won't give me a Half-a-Bee License either, for poor Eric here *bzzzz*
Glad to hear it :-)
It had occured to me that the alternative explanation was that Poland & Holland were now acting as a (probably informal) tag team, allowing them to spin out their reasons for delays to the maximum duration (hence the "seem" in what I wrote).
Thanks for confirming that though