Slashdot Mirror
British Government Considers Tax on Computers
Jumbo Jimbo writes "A story in the UK Times talks about the UK government's proposals to tax personal computers, as a replacement for the television license currently paid by every household with a TV. These are proposals and aren't intended for a few years yet, but due to the growth of computer ownership, this would probably amount to a tax on nearly everybody. Hope it's not per computer, or those people with a pile of old 286s in the shed could be in for a shock."
I know its better than old news, but are you aware that this is just one of many possible schemes, and that none of them are due to take effect before 2017.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
There is so much conjecture and guess work in this, that I don't know where to start. The BBC has only just had its charter renewed for the next 10 years, so imagining what will happen after that is total guess work.
Cue the swarms of BBC zealots telling everyone else in the U.K. why they should be forced to fund the BBC whether they use it or not.
Isn't the reasoning for the television tax to pay for the BBC, since people who own televisions get utility from the BBC?
And now they're going to start taxing computers, because people are using computers instead of the BBC?
That's fucked up.
unless they'll levy the tax on components as well they can hardly prevent me from building my own, it'd be difficult to implement on eBay as well.
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
...When TVs are becoming replaced by computers as a method of visual communication. It's far easier to live without a TV than a computer now, and they know that. So much for the people protesting the tax by not using a TV, if this goes through.
Not mooted until 2017 currently. The playing field will be a lot different by then, so it may be moved forward.
I would expect the fees would be a lot lower than the £120 TV licence currently in place. PC users would not be accessing BBC content 24/7.
[% slash_sig_val.text %]
I'm a big fan of the BBC's independence, and also of the license fee to pay for it, therefore I would like to continue seeing the BBC funded by the taxpayer for the forseeable future. Saying that, I'm not entirely convinced that a computer tax is the right way to go about this.
If you buy a television, you're pretty likely to be watching tv shows on it, and therefore the license fee seems like a good idea. With PCs, the scope of activity is pretty much unlimited, so I can't really see the connection between computers and BBC funding. Although, this may all change in the future as no-one really yet knows how television will eventually integrate with computers. All we can do is speculate.
I'm not stressed. I'm just terribly, terribly alert.
I'm getting a Linux-powered microwave!
Just
See subject.
Tax on televisions could be justified as a service fee (You pay BBC progams). But for cumputers what is the service you are paying for? And i do not like regressive taxation. In my country (Italy) it is uncostitutional. (and governments ignores that routinely, but that is another matter...) Excuse my horrible english.
Grumble grumble already paying 17.5% VAT on anything and everything with a transistor in grumble grumble computer prices already terribly high in the UK grumble grumble... ;-)
If the issue is that people will one day (heh) be able to watch the telly thanks to broadband internet at home, why not have a small but compulsory licence fee on home internet connections? It's not like conventional TV where any old bit of wire can pick up the transmissions, you'd need a suitably authorised ISP and whatever to connect to the giant BBC media servers, and people can easily opt out by, um, not using broadband. Or something!
Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
The games i play on my computer have nothing to do with TV that BBC broadcasts.
Sample this!
You see, this is why we rebelled. None of these stupid namby-pamby taxes.
You are right. Only billions spent on a war that provides us nothing while ours schools have no money to educate our kids. Indeed this all makes sense to me now...
ER?
Im not a specialist in this, but HOW are they going to know if you have computers, apart from actually coming into your house and checking?
With TV's its pretty simple, you have this massive aerial plus they can pick up signals off your TV (or so they claim), does anyone know if PC's give off any types of signal like this?
And if they do come in? Well, im repairing these old pc's for friends and family, i dont OWN any of them.
Same way a PC repair man doesn't need a TV licence for his shop (unless of course hes broadcasting the TV to the shoppers).
- http://www.milkme.co.uk
Presumably the reasoning is that people are using "computers" to access the BBC.
I don't see any relevant application of the tax unless they plan to offer free internet, etc. I think they would be better served to tax other things.. such as each tube ticket and use the money to hire henchmen wjo would force those lazy twats on the tube to work rather than strike when the tea room at earl's court is not up to snuff.
It's going to be interesting to see what a computer precisely is. PCs and laptops are obvious, but how about a dreambox or divx-player or wifi accesspoint running linux or something similar? A firewall appliance? How about a Xbox or a Playstation? Is a subnotebook a computer? A PDA? A smartphone?
:-)
No sir, I don't own a computer. Just a cluster of appliances.
Time to throw all your computers into the ocean in protest of this tax! Get ready for the revolution and be ready to attack on Christmas....when they least suspect it! To glorious battle we go!
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
"Here's one for you, nineteen for me"
</GEORGEHARRISON>
Moll.
What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
We fought against taxation without representation. Now, we have representation without enough taxation (at least for our level of of spending). Makes me think about the line in the patriot when MG says, "A king 1000's of miles away can do as much as 1000 kings 1 mile away" (or something like that).
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
This is how British politics works. In the UK, there is a knee-jerk reaction to like more taxes, however unfair and unwise, just as in the US there is an automatic tendency to like tax cuts, however unfair and unwise.
This is because UK people are brought up to feel warm and fuzzy when they think they are paying for 'public services', a 'social safety net', 'community infrastructure' and so on. Similarly, in the US people tend to feel warm and fuzzy when they think they are 'protecting their property', 'competing in a free market', etc.
The net result is that when a government needs to generate some positive buzz in the UK it talks about _extra_ taxes. I initially had a hard time believing this, but then a couple of years ago the UK govt imposed this absolutely HUGE tax hike for the benefit of 'health'. Everyone I knew who was not English reacted normally, ie they were horrified that yet more of their money would be stolen without them getting anything in return. But everyone I know who was English was actively happy, they felt reassured that it was a return to socialism and all for the public good and everything would be just fine. It was utterly weird.
A few years on, the health service here is still... well, you need private health insurance if you don't want to wind up with teeth like the English. And paying for health twice is not a small thing. But the warm fuzzy 'I am contributing to the greater good!' feeling among the English people remains.
And that, patient reader, is why we see this white paper being released playfully suggesting a tax on PCs. It has nothing to do with actual plans -- it's just to create a socialist sort of atmosphere and thus a warm fuzzy feeling.
Honesty compels me to point out that most societies have something like this effect.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
It should be noted that current licence is effectively based around *households* if I remember rightly. You buy a licence, it doesn't matter how many TVs you've got in your house, they are all covered. I do believe though that when you buy a tv you are technically required to register it under your name and address still (old radio law?). However, if we are to assume that the BBC retains its status as the national broadcasting organisation, protected by law and financed by a licence fee, then it makes sense that they move away from a licence on TV sets. I think the slashdot crowd would agree with the BBC that the TV is not going to be the only device that people will use in future to receive AV broadcasting, so it is forward thinking of the BBC to move away from a model based around the TV. The question is therefore, what is the licence based on? individuals? devices? households? Of course we can step one step backwards and ask if a licence model is the way to go.
Yup, you built a great system where 46% of personal bankruptcy cases in America are caused by medical bills
If I am to be taxed for ownership of a PC, with the grounds being that I can use this to access BBC-produced broadcasts, then I better actually had be able to access that content.
In other words, that content has to be accessible on a Mac, on Linux (any distro, my choice), on a PC, on some wondeful-but-yet-to-be-conceived-of OS that gets written in 2009...anything. If they're taxing me for it, then I must be able to receive the benefit the tax is actually on.
Incidently, I'm not opposed to the license fee (I'm in the UK). I believe my money to be well spent on the Beeb, though not necesasrily on television so much as radio and the internet.
Cheers,
Ian
Of course it makes sense. What do you think the Modern Oligarchy depends upon? Well educated people have more to lose and are less likely to take risky or low-wage (or both) employment.
Be a realist.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is usually crucified.
Well, we already pay a microsoft tax on every computer, so why not a government one? I mean, look at all the benefits the community gets from the Microsoft tax!
This will be bad news. If the BBC wants revenue it can encrypt and charge for *its own site*.
And what of the content I provide? Can I get a rebate on the tax by setting up my own website and providing content (or will internet broadcast licences be introduced as well?).
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Would this computer tax cover anything with a microprocessor in it such as calculators, wristwatches, mobile phones, etc. as they are technically computers. And would it include old computers not capable of accessing the internet or server systems and networks?
Fat people are hard to kidnap
Actually at the time of the revolution in the United States British taxes were lower, in fact, were almost non-existent. This is why the capitalist businessmen in the eastern states launched the Boston Tea Party and "No taxation without representation" - because they could not compete with better, cheaper British imports. Thus began the current United States - capitalism without a real principle of fair competition.
Dave Bell
The actual article is quite short and brief, but I condense it here to attempt to avoid questions answered in the article.
... suggested "either a compulsory levy on all households or even on ownership of PCs as well as TVs". It said that technology might render it difficult to collect and enforce the fee.
... ... ... /edited
"THE BBC licence fee should be replaced by a tax on the ownership of a personal computer instead of a television, ministers said yesterday.
Tessa Jowell told the BBC that the licence fee would be retained for at least another ten years until 2017 in return for abolishing the Board of Governors. But the Culture Secretary conceded that technological advances would mean that a fee based on "television ownership could become redundant".
More than six million households have access to high-speed broadband connections and the BBC has begun experimenting with broadcasting video clips over the internet.
A legal loophole highlighted by the communications regulator Ofcom means that viewers could watch television and listen to radio over the internet and mobile devices free, potentially costing the BBC millions of pounds in licence fees.
The Dept for Culture, Media and Sport's Green Paper setting out the BBC's long-term future
Officially, the Government says that changes would not be needed until 2017,... but insiders said that the department would act if internet viewing took off.
Over the next few years, internet broadcasting is set to increase rapidly... The BBC already broadcasts all its radio stations over the internet, and [some TV too]
Ofcom predicts that more than half of Britain's households will be watching television over the internet by 2012. Other emerging technologies will allow television to be broadcast direct to mobile phones. [O2 aiming to test in 2007]
Even go a stage further and insist every household has to have someone with a PC use accreditation to be able to connect to the Internet.
As a computer geek, I'm sick and tired of having to endlessly fix the crappy Windows PCs of friends and relatives, I'm totally bored with spending time keeping my machines (both Linux and Windows ones) updated only to still have my Internet connection slow to a crawl every time the latest Windows worm hits and maybe the government can "sponsor" non-commercial citizens' web-sites so that I'm not constantly bombarded by banner ads and pop-ups every time I load a page in my browser.
UK Gov. can even go a stage further and send out a free Knoppix CD with each PC Tax registration form :-)
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
Incase anybody didn't notice, this comment was made as part of a general debate on possible loop holes and issues that might exist when the 10 year renewal is up, it was not part of any formal law or decision making process.
As an MP was rightly pointing out, there is a potential loophole where a household may not own any televisions at all, and only computers and monitors (without any tv tuner card, as thats already covered) through which they may be able to watch the increasing amount of tv programs the bbc make available over the internet, and thus avoid paying the tv license fee under the current rules.
its pretty obvious that someone is going to suggest 'tax all computers instead then' as a solution to that loop hole, it doesnt mean thats sensible or will ever be seriously considered, its just media sensationalism on an otherwise dull topic.
They could just add a small percentage tax to the sale of all new computers, and use the funds raised to develop interesting projects like Westminster Wireless City, or to start giving us proper broadband speeds (ie 10/100 Mbs) in London (obviously they shouldn't bother with any of this stuff in the North or the countryside).
Once upon a time in Europe, there used to be a tax on windows (they were considered a sign of wealth)
I've since emigrated to Australia and here is where you see what effect the TV licence has: the BBC stations provide a benchmark of quality that the commercial stations have to match and they generally do. Well, compared to the Australian stations, they do.
Australian commercial stations treat the audience like a numbers game. They won't make a commitment to a series unless it keeps getting great ratings, and by 'commitment', I mean that they won't keep a series in prime time long enough for it to the story to mature and to catch on (examples: Farscape got booted to beyond midnight after about 4 episodes and you should have seen the backflip with The Sopranos series 4) or they'll decide to axe a show because the station owner doesn't like what he sees (example: Packer pulling the "Michallef" show because of a comment Michallef made).
They show movies, but intersperse them with so many adverts, animated station ID's, "what's next" scrolling banners and the like that you lose any sense of the 'magic' that a good movie can bring. Maybe British TV has gone to hell since I left, but I doubt it can be as bad as commercial Australian TV.
A solution for viewing sanity is the PVR and here's where I link back to the posted topic: by taxing PCs, the British government ministers are looking to the future (2017) when TVs are computers in their own right and internet broadcasting is a much, much bigger phenomenon. Provided that the tax keeps the quality of programming high, then you can't complain - the money is going where it should and you don't end up with a crappy viewing experience.
- Broadband video news from the BBC is only available to international users by subscription.
Find out how to get the latest broadband video news from the BBC here.
2nd, If I don't use BBC's servicesI don't claim I know more than I know, and if you know you know more than I know, then by all means, let me know.
We are taxed to the hilt wherever possible, this isnt that unusual.
and the billions they get from stamp duty, tax on petrol etc. etc. dont get you anything back in those areas either.
If you bear in mind that you are supposed to pay tax on chip fat you have converted to diesel fuel then you will realise there is nothing unusually bizarre in taxing computers.
The reason there are so many taxes is to hide the true amount we spend in taxes, if the common man realised how much they are really paying in taxes there would be an uprising.
Still I suppose we have entire generations of benefit claimants to support who cant be arsed working and other small costs like billions spent to kill foreigners, the money has to come from somewhere.
Bush and Blair ate my sig!
I thought that the Windows tax went out in 1851...
So if I build my own computer I don't pay? bring it on!!!!
Seriously though, they will need to ban self built computers if they wish to tax as many people as possible.
Smuggling was big in England too, with the fortunes of some modern day companies being founded on smuggling, Avery being one of them.
**TODO** Steal someone elses sig.
Mainly because the OP is full of shit. People don't "like" tax rises, however if a service is seen to be doing particularly badly at a time (see: the NHS) people will accept tax rises despite grumbling. There is also the fact that the NHS isn't that bad, and hasn't the cost of "health insurance" risen by a huge amount in the US recently?
Also, in the UK, most people don't go the private route, even though it's avaliable for them.
A tax on PCs is probably one of the suggestions so that people go "OMG" and then they throw it out favouring a less controversial suggestion (lets keep the TV licence) etc.
The so called detector vans were a myth cooked up a few decades ago, but one that endured.
What detection technology they did have picked up such a wide range of devices (CB radios, microwave ovens etc) that they were technically useless.
So the Beeb chose a more dracionian approach, they operated under the assumption that all households would have a TV set and so they must all pay the license fee. When an address came up on their system that didn't have a paid fee or a license due to expire, they sent round warning letters about inspectors patrolling your area intimidating folks into paying the fee or facing a £1000 fine.
I don't really like the BBC and resent having to pay a full license fee for the fraction of a percentage of their services I occasionally use, but I can the need for a public service broadcasting system free of advertisements.
Gotta tell ya though, the full size matt black posters with white bold text saying you *will* get caught, they even list names and postcodes of people who've been caught, are very sinister, very 1984ish.
They're working on a similar proposal here in Belgium. They are actually considering a "copyright" tax of 40 euros per computer!! The money won't even benefit society, but will go straight to SABAM (the RIAA/MPAA equivalent in Belgium) This is outrageous and comes down to simple theft.
If this proposal becomes law, I will not buy a computer in Belgium anymore. I live close enough to the German and Dutch border so I'll just buy my equipment there.
For those interested, more info can be found here: http://geenpctaks.be/ (Sorry the page is in dutch, can't find an english translation)
If you are Belgian, please sign the petition against this proposal.
only that it's about to start in 2007 in Germany.
See here.
I thought this was kind of covered already
I don't know quite how they'd do this? I suppose they could tax TV cards at sale, or maybe they can detect the use of the receiving equipment as they currently do. That said maybe they can pick up any CRT display device??
It's been done before: http://www.longparish.org.uk/history/windowtax.htm
References to operating systems aside, the window tax is often cited as one of the worst examples of taxation in British history. You still see old buildings where the windows were bricked up, so the owners could pay less tax.
Taxing specific items is usually a bad idea: hard / expensive to enforce and fundamentally unfair. Better would be a tax which goes directly to the BBC like a "Public Information Services" tax.
Of course that might lead people to demand higher qualities from the BBC plus more say and accountability. That in itself might lead to a shift in perspective of the UK public from government being the masters to government being the servants and no politician wants that to happen.
Ultimately people need to wake up to the idea that http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
"those people with a pile of old 286s in the shed could be in for a shock."
...and anyone with a calculator, washing machine, mobile phone...
These are the same people that Knighted Billiam Gates right?
I rest my case.
A blanket license on computers instead of TVs seems a bit silly.
What they can do is this. Keep the TV license as it stands. However, if you want to watch BBC TV content on the Internet, you must log into the BBC website, providing your TV license details. This shows you have a TV license, and then you can go and watch BBC TV on the Internet.
This means people with TVs only are paying and people with no TV but a computer and broadband get to support the BBC too if they are using BBC content. And people with both a TV and a computer don't end up paying twice since they supply their TV license details to the BBC website when creating their account.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
I agree ads suck, but I simply don't watch a lot of TV anyway. The licence system must be abolished and the BBC made to play on the same level playing field as everyone else. There are good things that have come out of the BBC, but I see them as miniscule compared the junk broadcast that I didn't ask for yet am asked to pay a licence for. That is just plain wrong.
There is no reason advertising means a lower quality of programming. Channel 4 make perfectly good documentaries that are on par and often better and more innovative than those the BBC create for instance. The other big thing the BBC has which is News, well there is so much choice for news now, BBC just has to accept the realities of the market and move on.
If you have a TV, but just use it attached to a dvd player without a licence, you are breaking the law.
No tax in the USA?
No sales tax?
No income tax?
No local income tax?
No import/export duties?
No wonder your government is so spectacularly in debt.
That was classic intercourse!
Well actually the BBC _IS_ a social problem if you're on benefits and live in poverty - but many BBC supporters couldn't care less about social injustice.
We worked it out once,
Something like
minimum:
20% income TAX from employee
& taxed again from employer
17.5% VAT
I can't remember the details but the result was but it works out as about 50-70p in every £1 is lost, _excluding_ things like ciggies and drink. So that's being conservative.
& Council Tax
& Higher fuel tax getting to work
& Duty tax
There should/could be a website out there tracking the stealth taxes because I really can't tell where my money goes.
We were only totting up the obvious taxes.
This also means that if you drive somewhere from your home to buy some cigarettes or drink you're probably getting taxed >100%.
A blog I run for the wealth
No one has yet mentioned the greatest jewel of the BBC: BBC radio. Whether you are considering Radio 4 (news), Radio 3 (culture), or the World Service (international), these are all funded as part of the TV license fee.
Also, I think that it is important that the BBC (especially radio) remains free to access. Personally, I'd like to see the BBC adopt a model such as Mandrake use, i.e. people who like it pay, in order to keep it free for everyone to use.
Not exactly true.
They will pester you but if you can prove that you have rendered it incapable of receiving a broadcast, and detuning the receiver is enough, then you are not technically breaking the law.
It's hard to do on "idiot" proof sets, but it can and has been done.
Java gaming nut - http://www.retep.org/ or for the rail http://uktra.in/
I know that slashdotters like to whine about what a horrid place the united states is, all the more so if they've never been there.
However, Europe certainly has its share of problems too. A lot of the taxes are quite regressive, such as TV taxes, Car transfer taxes (something like 500+ Euro to transfer title of a used car!), value added tax that hits lower income people more than the rich. The list goes on. You may get more things in Europe. For example, the free health service means that europeans pay less, overall, for health care, because they don't have the overhead of the insurance companies to support. However, things are not looking rosy for the average man on the street. Big countries like Germany are realizing that they have too much structural rigidity (it's hard to fire people even if they're really not needed and won't be needed anytime soon), and are making it easier to unload workers. And yet it's still difficult to find jobs in many countries, because there isn't the 'liquidity' in the market that there is in the US.
Signed, A bitter american in Europe.
Maybe I'll try Australia or New Zealand... they seem to get some things right...
Well what more could you possibly put a tax on? I already pay for NHS, which I yet to actually use (since over a decade ago), and now this!? Why not put a tax on my breathing as well... come to think of it when I die why not just pass a 'Death Tax' and shaft me in my grave!
Thats it time to use my dual nationality - next stop the U.S. of A.
- blah
Time for the... Boston LAN Party!
I'll forego the option of moderating this discussion to tell anyone interested that Sweden is contemplating a very similar change.
The TV-license is going to transform into a "media license" and everyone with access to a computer, TV or other "media"-item is going to have to pay for the use of it.
Personally I'm not a fan of TV-licensing, and this is even less titillating to me.
I enjoy large posteriors and I cannot prevaricate.
I'm sure your points are valid, but you should mention your personal interest in maintaining the TV License Fee:
Alan Partridge - BBC local radio presenter.
yeah, b+w radios are the way to go! but it did get me thinking, get rid of the slashdot hype and I think the current set up is a licence tied to a defined property, not a device. Mind, I guess this is probably something to do with the granularity of the monitoring kit, perhaps it is too much trouble to check on individual signals from a house? Perhaps if it was all digital then they could licence on a device basis (MAC addresses, something like that)? Not sure if I can be bothered to read the small print on my tv licence. Me student, 5 of us sharing the cost of a tv licence, 25 quid each a year, decent programmes with no advertising, a news service that's up for standing up to the govt. Fair enough deal for me.
okay.
:)
BBC starts from assumption that all PCs have software installed that makes it capable of displaying sound and video over the internet.
that's a fuck right up from the word go.
so let's assume that iWhacks, MAC OS/1, BeOS, FreeBSD, Atari ST500s and BBC Micros (the ones with the ARM processor) are all capable of viewing video and listening to sound, over the internet.
great. so the BBC must first fund [patent-unencumbered!] free software development of video and sound compression and broadcasting technology, in order to guarantee that the technology is available across all platforms.
that sounds good to me.
so your computer _is_ capable, your OS _is_ capable, but you choose _not_ to install capable software: will the BBC force people to pay a license fee just because your PC is _capable_ of being used to view video, listen to sound, and be connected to the internet?
mmm
I would say the old fart was right on target.
It's just like the Beatles' (George Harrison) song: if you try to sit, I'll tax your seat, etc...
Ah-ha Mr Wilson...
Well, if the laws planned for 2017, it would be a bit stupid laying it out now, technology will have come allong in leaps and bounds and I suspect the BBC licence fee would probably become a subscription service.
I believe the BBC is working on the problem, as they do do a fair ammount of reasearch, probably best to ask the BBC what they want to do about the problem, before debating ideas with very little merrit for future laws.
If you live in poverty, feeding and housing yourself are higher priorties than having a TV.
Public, unbiased access to BBC radio is not taxed.
Er ... whooosh!
I'm sure the country would be fine if someone kicked those asshole politicians in the head and they actually spent the money wisely, instead of on projects to enrich their friends.
Does anyone know if this is the case or if it's planned by the BBC themselves?
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
for replying to a fictional character
How do you detect a PC? Unlike TVs, which use recievers, PCs are largely selfcontained. If they're going to do anything, it'd have to be a connection tax - detect wifi signal, and charge the ISPs. Separately? Complicated. ... and what will happen to the BBC if TV licenses are removed?
Browsing with +2 to insightful posts and a higher threshold makes the average post seen seem a lot more ingenious
When is a computer taxable? Assuming they attempt to include home made PC's (although how they can inforce this unless they tax by component I don't know) then does a computer without an internet connection count?
I know a few people who still use computers just to write documents and don't even have dial up let alone the capacity to actually view streaming video or download videos in any sensible time frame. Are they taxable as well? I think this system would just have too many holes to be feasible.
I accept that by 2017 the connectivity to the internet will (hopefully!) be far more to the level that steaming video is entirely possible for the majority of the population, if they actually use it (see my previous point), but by then the more interesting question would be, what counts as a computer?
The way mobile phones are progressing will they be included? PDAs? MP3 players? Hell, random everyday items that we use like fridges and mirrors might have the potential to connect online and stream video, are they taxable as well?
Warning, comments may not have been passed by the sanity department of my brain.
If it's like the tax paid per tv, i believe is like a canon paid when you buy the computer
DON'T PANIC
How does this work in Scotland? no trespass law there.
When I was much younger and working to get my ham ticket the radio inspector was moving from one office to another. He showed me a store room full of radios that had been confiscated during ww2 for not having a license. Given the situation at the time they cared deeply and did go looking. I even saw the equipment they used. Anyway they were throwing all the stuff out and I was welcome to take as much as I could jam into my parents' house. Sadly, I turned several beautiful old radios into parts for my projects. Sigh.
They can't just tax computers en masse, does my microwave count, what about my burglar alarm, etc.
I think what they'll end up taxing is something like "visual display hardware capable of rendering full motion video at a minimum resolution of xxx by yyy at zzz frames per sec".
There's no other way to do it. Video cards, projectors, what else would need to be covered I wonder ?
It would include mobile phones which are increasingly being used to view sports clips, news headlines, music videos and movie trailers.
I don't know how they'll manage to avoid licensing cinemas though. I mean define a cinema, plenty of pubs fall into the category of large screen places for public viewing of video. So what's the difference.
Quite a few people have, in their official capacity, a right of entry to your home under statute. Which, arguably, is more than you have - if you lock yourself out, for example, and break a window to get in, you're technicallly guilty of breaking and entering.
IANAL, but I listen and learn.
What stupidity. If BBC wants cash to fund its service then why not make it an encrypted station where only people can view it who actually pay for it and _want it_ (like cable TV)? Rather than taxing everybody who has a TV. Somebody mentioned that the "inspector" said no tax was applicable when he saw the aerial was unplugged. Wake up people, you think everybody is that nice? A different person would simply say that you unplugged the aerial for whatever reason or make up some other scheisse and tax you anyway.
"So the Beeb chose a more dracionian approach"
Technically, it's the TV Licensing Agency, not the Beeb themselves.
"Gotta tell ya though, the full size matt black posters with white bold text saying you *will* get caught, they even list names and postcodes of people who've been caught, are very sinister, very 1984ish."
Not so much sinister as silly and vaguely offensive. Government agencies shouldn't go around acting like wannabe gangsters. Presumably the reason they do it is because the actual chances of being prosecuted for having no TV license are miniscule, so they feel the need to intimidate people.
Why is there no tax on stupidity?
Grundgesetz * 23. Mai 1949 - 30. November 2007 - http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/
Stupid idea. Computer != television, if it has a TV tuner then treat it as a TV, otherwise...nah.
The BBC is Britain's jewel in the crown. I know many Slashdotters probably couldn't live without the unbiased news Auntie provides through its website or on BBC World, it must be a refreshing antidote to the Fox News/CNN/MSNBC crap you get over there. The World Service Radio is absolutely invaluable as well, with its news broadcasts in countries with very restrictive regimes. That alone is worth the £110 a year licence fee. But of course thanks to the Murdoch media everyone here is thinking that the licence fee is a waste of money (while £35 a month on Mr Murdoch's BSkyB full of shopping channels is perfectly acceptable...)
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
My beowulf cluster of computers.
I seem to recall us having a little argument with them about their taxes a couple hundred years ago, too...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
After all, they are "entering" your home (if only slightly) when the postman comes into the porch to put the post through the letterbox.
Trespass is a civil wrong on Scots Law. But unlike English law, it is not by itself a criminal matter.
u k/news/tre spass.html
See for example:
http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.
Me too. It's lunch time here, and as I sit in the open plan office where I work and look around, I can see a page from the BBC News web site up on about half the screens in the room. There is a reason for that.
I have a mild dislike of some of the current arrangements to finance the Beeb, but ultimately, I'd rather have the good points about the service with the current somewhat flawed system for paying for them than risk losing the service in an attempt to save a tiny amount of money.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Pile of 286s? what about the pile of dead babies in my shed? *ducks*
Kiteboarding Gear Mention slashdot and get 10% off!
Well, it'll be fun when we move to digital radio and all the people who live in poverty will have to buy themselves a bundle of electronics to keep that public, unbiased access - eh?
There's no reason why you hard-working UK citizens should have to put up with this crap. Unplug your telly/pc/whatever, drive it right on down to the Thames or whatever your nearest waterhole is and TOSS IT IN!
Let "the man" in parliament know you ain't gonna pay no taxes what you ain't got been done voted fer yet. No more.
Hey, it worked for us!
Sincerely,
USA
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
Under my plan the government would determine what the average citizen pays in taxes in a given year. If you pay above average in taxes, this so called "tax on tax tax" would not apply to you. But you'd have to pay on the tax on tax tax in inverse proportion to where you are beneath the average.
So if you only paid 45% of the average taxes, you'd have to pay that additional 5%.
That way the rich could not avoid taxes. But the rich would love it because it would keep the poor even more poor. Heck, the UK would have to open debtor's prisons again!
cheers for correction!
I would be suspect about this report until I see sources other that The Times being listed. I've had a look on Google News and the few stories listed all point back to the Times article.
The Times is owned by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp, who are totally opposed to the way the BBC is funded, as it is a direct competitor to his Sky TV service.
People like The Sun's former editor, now involved in broadcasting, Kelvin McKenzie were all over TV, on commercial channels, this week to put the BBC down.
Now, this move might be true..... But there is considerable spin being aimed at the Beeb at the moment.....
The TV-license is now non-existent, everybody just pays more taxes. Aaaand nobody has been able to figure out how much more taxes are paid in exchange for the license fees. *shrugs* Whether you pay with the left hand, or the right hand: it does not make a real difference, I guess.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
Thats the same thing we Americans said more than 200 years ago. And it is just as true now as it was then. Tee hee
The 'official' concerned will be an employee of a private company contracted to collect the TV license fee on behalf of the BBC. They have no right of entry to your house though they like to imply that they have. I have been visited twice by these fools and both times told them to *#@! off, which they did because they have no choice.
There is no need to worry about police since in order to get the police to attend they will have to prove in court that they have reason to believe that you have equipement to receive television broadcasts.
Without entrance to your residence they are unlikey to get that evidense unless they use the fantastic television detection technology which they boast about on their website but which noone I know has ever seen.
I don't own a television and have informed them that if they continue to pester me I will take them to court for harassment.
My advice to anyone who does not recieve television broadcasts but who is pestered by these gestapo is to do the same.
I don't agree with paying the licence fee. AFAIK people in France and other countries close to the UK can watch the BBC and they don't contribute any licence fee.
You should get a decoder card or something when you pay your licence.
If people are actually watching BBC stuff on their computer. Otherwise, not.
The various (largely indistinguishable) governments in the UK have been talking about taxing home computers since the early 1980s.
So, what would define a "whole" computer for tax purposes? Because I have at least 4 boxes of old ISA cards, motherboards, and 286's all the way to pentium 3 chips lying around. Would it be all the parts in one case needed for a working computer, or by processor or by motherboard? Say you had the capability to build at least 6-7 computers, but the parts were all seperated and scattered in various places.
nt
Oh come on, you KNOW I never got that second series!
That was classic intercourse!
It's not about the computers or the televisions -- it's about the money.
The solution is to lobby your representative and urge them to spend less.
Chip H.
Tax, tax, tax .....
Spend, spend, spend,
Tax, tax, tax and spend
Last year the GDP growth rate was only 2.2%,
So let's tax and spend again
The whole system needs to be replaced so that a digital signal can be terminated if a license payment has not been made
It's the only way
My mobile phone has more processing power than was required to put people on the moon.
My wristwatch has a faster processor than my first PC had.
Is either of these a "computer" ?
find more potp = www.planetofthepenguins.com
At the moment you just pay one cover-all license for all TV's or tuners (ie TV-cards etc) in your home, not one each. Ah people think its gay but really its less than just about any cable/satellite package and it funds the entire BBC including radio, TV and internet, they also have great training facilities and R&D and export tons of programming around the world. The BBC is more than just a TV station. Computers already have a tax its called the Microsoft tax maybe the government could just charge MS and threaten to boycott them if they dont pay ;)?
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
A tax is ever a good thing.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
It sounds like the issue has been stated a few different times -- the buried point is regarding things that can receive a broadcast signal. So... why not just place a tax on video cards that have tuners? Reading this makes me glad I don't live in a socialist country. I thought the taxes on the bloated system here were bad...
Let me ask you this: who defines "quality" in TV? If no one wants to watch what you call "quality" TV, then why should they pay a tax for it? The only possible just and reasonable justification for a tax on TV would be if the results were distributed among producers based on viewer ratings. Anything else would be, at least, undemocratic.
They won't make a commitment to a series unless it keeps getting great ratings
Yes, they are absolutely right in doing so, why should they ever consider doing otherwise? Do you think Ford should have made a lasting commitment to the Edsel? If a series doesn't get good ratings, it's not a good series according to the public and should be dropped.
After reading about this I don't ever want to read another "Why are you American's so stupid in allowing your leaders to pass stupid laws and taxes blah blah blah" complaint post again.
Agreed. This is pure Labour spin. It should not modded as insightful at all.
Seriously bad modding going on here guys. Time for a mod purge. There is someone moddin here that is just downgrading everything that isn't pro New Labour and pro licence fee.
Bad mod: You have to accept a lot of people don't like the BBC, the licence fee and the current UK government.
After the Computer Act is passed, we'll see a whole bunch of FSF folks dressed up in Google polo shirts dumping computers into the Charles River.
The annual taxes on my cable bill are about $48.
The various taxes and mandatory "fees" on my various phone lines is $132 a year.
This is about half what the Brits pay, but not insiginificant.
The UK is gradually transitioning from a more or less democratic country towards a totalitarian one. This includes government surveilance, the absurd possibility of a "computer tax", and other moves that would never be approved by the general population. This is creepy and hopefully people are smart enough to see what's going on and do their share e.g. writing their representatives to direct the UK government on the path to democracy before it is too late.
The current TV Licence is per-household. There's no reason to assume that a computer based licence would be any different.
I'll be interested to see what happens in ~2012 when the analogue signal gets turned off. In theory, at this point, ordinary televisions and video recorders would no longer come under the licence, only digital receivers. Meaning that, for a period at least, I could use my games consoles without needing a licence.
Back in the days of supertax the maximum rate for investment income in the UK was theoretically 105% but reduced by concession to 95% of income. Very few people paid that rate but the Beatles/Apple Records had notorously bad financial planning skills.
Hope it's not per computer, or those people with a pile of old 286s in the shed could be in for a shock.
Ob Monty Python ref: Especially if you've got two sheds of old 286s!
"Have you written any of your recent works in this shed of yours?"
"It's a wonderful idea. But it doesn't work." -- Tad Danielewski
They do hide the fact that you can do this pretty well though.
In Britain, there was also a hearth tax. You paid money for each fireplace you had.
Back in the days where income tax would have been very difficult to levy, as there was no way for the government to know how much people earned (income often came in the form of goods and livestock, like chickens, rather than cash), taxing the number of fireplaces was a decent way of taxing the wealthy more.
It was assumed that if you had more fireplaces, you had a bigger house, and therefore more money.
There was also a poll-tax, ("poll" originally meant "head" rather than "voting place") where there was a flat tax on each person in the household, payable by the head of the household. This could be rather burdensome on poor people, especially if they had sizable families.
The Prince of Hessen (in central Germany) raised money by drafting all the young men and selling them off to other countries as mercenaries. The term of service was something like 10 years, if I recall correctly. The young men being sold off as soldiers had no choice in the matter. That's why there were Hessian soldiers present at the Battle of Trenton during the American Revolution: the British had purchased them as mercenaries from Hessen and were using them in the colonies.
The Swiss used to be famous for their mercenaries as well. There wasn't much wealth in Switzerland at the times, so hiring the men out as mercenaries brought in needed cash. I believe, however, that unlike the poor fellows in Hessen, being a Swiss mercenary was voluntary.
German knights along the Rhine in the Middle Ages forced ships to pay money just for the privilege of sailing by their castle. Ships refusing to do so had the tendency to get confiscated. They earned the name "robber-knights" for that nice bit of extortion. So kids, remember that those romantic images of knights aren't all that accurate. They could often be greedy, violent thugs looking out for their own self-interests.
Those cash-strapped rulers came up with some imaginative ways of raising funds when they needed them. Sometimes people just had to bear it, and sometimes there were rebellions when the subjects felt that they were being taxed unfairly.
Let me give our British cousins some American advice. Don't worry you don't have to pay the tax on these. Here's what you do. Get dressed up as Indians (or native Americans if you prefer) and sneek into the harbor and get on the ships where these machines are being shipped into Great Britain. Then dump them all overboard into the harbor.
We had something like this with the British government a few hundred years ago. Since the rebellion we haven't had to pay one penny in taxes (to the British government).
No, that's the prole tax.
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
Erm, that's what it is for, dood.
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
They already tax the purchase of computers at 17.5% VAT (value added tax) on the purchase price.
How much more does Tony Bliar and his thieving government bastards want. Do they want a pound of flesh? Will they be taxing the breathable air over the UK?
Sigs. We don't need no steenking sigs.
I've just moved to the US, and I'd far prefer to have the BBC available over here - without the adverts that they insert into the exported BBC channels they show.
For every hour of TV, about 20 mins will be adverts for things I don't want and will never buy. The Tivo is the only thing keeping me watching TV at all over here, because I can skip the ads. They even interrupt MOVIES for crying out loud!
Even the ad-supported channels in the UK are nowhere near as bad as the USA. I've got 300 channels of pure unadulterated crap, from which every now and then a semi-decent program emerges, in small pieces. Thank [insert deity] for the Sci Fi channel, it's the only thing I watch these days.
So, instead of ruining all my TV viewing ever, I used to pay ~£10/month. Well worth it. And even more so when you're forced to put up with the alternative.
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
Where are you getting this information from?
TV licencing told me on the phone a few years ago that I could use my TV to watch videos without a licence. They added a comment to that effect in their database. So long as you de-tune from all the broadcast channels and unplug the aerial, you're fine. Straight from the horses mouth.
When I buy blank DVDs for backing up my computer at work, I have to pay a tax because I "could" be burning music or videos to them, however, since I don't have a single song or commercial video at work, I'm paying a tax for nothing.
2/3 of the ~3,000,000 (iirc) houses that were visited by Centrica (the company that enforces the TV licensing law) managed to fox the system by simply not answering their doors.
It is time to push Disappearing Computer Projects!
And of course the BBC is a classic example of a government that refuses to trust its people to establish and choose among varied and free sources of information. European government's simply don't trust their people to think for themselves, especially those the see as listening more than they read. Here, of course, it is the usual suspects who try to imitate Europe's undemocratic model (and are indifferent to the spread of democracy into Arab lands). It boggles my mind that anyone thinks we have much to learn from either Germany or France, given the history of both. Note too the hostility that doctrinaire U.S. liberals have toward talk radio and blogging. And the move is already afoot to squelch political blogs before the 2008 election. Look for rabid support for that idea from the likes of the NY Times.
The basic problem with ordinary Europeans (and alas the Canadians) is that they remain serfs at heart. Like this wimp and a possible computer tax, they have no ability to fight against their government. Protesting against their betters, no matter how bureacratically repressive (think socialized medicine) and against propaganda no matter how dishonest (think WWI atrocity propaganda or BBC and other media attacks on Bush and the Gulf War) is impossible for them. Old Europe remains as it was centuries ago, a land in which the few, the lords at the BBC and elsewhere, rule over the many whether they're called serfs, listeners or computer owners.
That's the message of Orwell's Animal Farm. No matter how much things in European politics may change on the surface, some remain "more equal" than others. The many are forced to pay taxes on TV and (soon) computers, while the few get to spend that money to dominate by sheer power what is said on the air or the Internet. You see it also in the rather left-side selection of articles that get posted on Slashdot, but that's another story.
That is one of the most important messages of Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings--the dangers of a concentration in the hands of a few (the Black Riders) or the bearer of the One Ring. Notice the great difference between the Shire when the Hobbits leave and when they return.
The Lord of the Rings is no more escapist than is Orwell's Animal Farm. It is perhaps the greatest anti-totalitarian novel of the twentieth century. And in the Shire, Bilbo and Frodo don't pay a tax on the pen they use to write their tale.
--Mike Perry, Seattle
Author: Untangling Tolkien
Editor: The Pivot of Civilization in Historical Perspective
The BBC is funded by "taxes", not advertisement. I put taxes in quotes because it is payable serperately from your other taxes.
The reason this is done is to make sure the BBC is independent. The goverment can't simply decide to cut funding, when they do not broadcast favorable propaganda.
The TV license is actualy quite inexpensive for most people; if they increased income tax by that much, nobody would notice. But it is only controversial because, without it you are breaking the law, just like you would be not paying any other taxes.
In return for that, we get uninterupted TV shows and probably the best, most honest and objective news reporting in the world and inspiring other broadcaster to do the same.
Americans tend to trust Fox, CNN or the networks instead. Would I swap places to save GBP120 a year? Hell no!
There seem to be quite a few (1%?) topics posted here over the last few months that have been sourced directly from the BBC web site.
I would be willing to pay my licence fee for just access to the website.
After all, I read the news on it every day, and if it wasn't there, I might be tempted to buy a daily newspaper which could cost more than the licence fee - over a year.
Your point looks right on. The person who suggested possibly taxing computers also suggested simply taxing households (though perhaps the term "levy" has slightly different connotations than "poll tax" did?) I don't know the UK's tax system enough to know whether a specific TV tax on households would be perceived as better or worse than simply funding BBC from general taxation, either by the public who'd have to pay it or by the BBC, who'd have to keep fighting for higher amounts while risking having it cut if the party in power doesn't like their recent programming decisions.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Don't they remember what happened last time they tried to tax a big, independent, powerful group?
Wouldn't you already pay sales tax on a computer in the UK?? I know it's not the same as your TV tax thing but would that not be the same? Woudl it not be more efficient to just put a tax on the ISP bill?
Gorkman
Wouldn't it make a lot more practical sense to tax the sale of TVs then to go around with probes and try to tax the possesion of TVs?
Hell yeah I think this is great we can start taxing not just computers but all the components inside of them too, also we can start taxing mouse clicks this way us in government can create more lies and vote on hihger wages for ourselfs I mean hell the people dont seem to care about us taking advantage of them so lets just ram it up there ass lets go big gentlemen also lets start taking homes and puting kids in foster care for those who are pirating movies and music :)
:)
good day rich
bfn
It did, in fact, already happen. It was called the Boston Tea Party.
We now (yanks) are facing the same situation, where a greater percentage of wealth is gobbled up by the machine.
I wonder what the new country will be called?
My father had a problem which was misdiagnosed twice by two different private health care doctors over a three month period. Finally an NHS doctor correctly diagnosed bowel cancer, but it was too late, he died 6 weeks later.
The TV license is justifable and acceptable 'tax' as it provides us the the BBC and pays for a lot of the broadcasting infrastucture.
A PC/Computer is not, as the government did not pay for the infrastructure, nor are they a provider of any non-gov related content.
They've already charged us, as there is taxes in the ISP bills that we all have to pay to use the net.
TV cards are already detectable and taxable under the tv license rules.
----- I refuse to have an argument with an unarmed person
Half the local ABC programming used to be of BBC origin, and a fraction still is. The TV/DVD sections of our bookshops are crammed with old British TV stuff, and it's still popular.
It's true that there's pretty much nothing worth watching on free-to-air or cable, but as long as we have our guaranteed-regionless DVD players and our broadband net connections for downloading commercial-free versions of overseas programs, she'll be right, mate.
Chuck another prawn on the barbie, I've just bought all of Blake's 7 on DVD and I'm downloading the entirity of Farscape and Buffy.
Weather's not bad, either.
sweet jesus people, this was a joke.