Don't be ridiculous. It's a sure thing that one of these guys has already gotten the output of a "very small shell" script (that took many days to run) and now has the relevant portions that look as though they include code from SysV sources. It's also a sure bet that they've shared this information with eveyone who SCO is suing. I think they're just being quiet about it so that 1) they have a chance to be fully prepared for all the angles, and 2) it will be a much more dramatic victory over SCO when it all comes out.
I'd like to play it, because most everything the Chapmans have done until now has been a scream, but I don't have a console, nor do I want to buy one. I've got no problems with buying a ROM file and trying an emu, and I think there are a lot of HR fans that are in the same boat. Here's hoping they just sell the ROM file from the cart alongside the cart itself.
I think part of this is fueled by the notion that -- at least in America -- we like underdogs. In general, we don't begrudge people the millions they earn, but when they start using that financial power against _our_ ability to earn... Well, that's just not fair. So when Linus uses RMS's tools to complete a totally-open system, and spreads it using totally-unrestricted means, we like that. Now it has become a matter of sticking it to "the man." I don't think that a lot of us geeks would care about Microsoft -- I mean, I think we'd have a "live and let live" attitude towards them -- if they were just happy to do business on the strengths of their technologies. But when they use that clout to run other people and companies and technologies out of the market, that's when it gets personal.
I'm as critical of Debian as anyone, probably because I really, really like their philosophy. Unfortunately, their philosophy causes them to be about 2 years behind the current average Linux distro. On the other hand, Debian stays this far behind because all the work done to the distro must work across, what?, about 9 different architectures. (Maybe it was 11?) This includes the installer. I've given Debian a whirl, but I haven't made the jump yet. However, there's a chance that I might get a dozen old HP and Sun workstations that are collecting dust at my company, and the thought of being able to run the same Linux distro across both platforms really, really intrigues me. Debian on x86? Well, if you really want to, I guess. But Debian on non-x86? Hands down. "Real" Unix machines that can find their way into hobbyists hands won't be bleeding edge, and Debian's lag will actually be a huge asset to someone wanting to outfit such a machine.
Sure I'm trying to be funny, but the situation really isn't very funny at all. I've tried Debian, back on potato, and just recently with woody. The people that flock to Debian's defense have got serious denial issues. Sure "stable" is stable. It ought to be. It's two years behind the current status quo. I actually appreciate that. But I like to run the same OS on both the desktop and the server. (Maybe that's "unenlighted" from Debian's point of view, but I think that's the only way to really _master_ a distro.) The problem is that I really like the newer apps (like Evolution) and the newer kernels (like post 2.4.19, that will support my Tungsten T). Getting this requires you to go to the "bleeding edge" -- as everyone keeps saying -- in the Debian world. Unfortunately, this last time I was trying to make a go of Debian, it also proved that "unstable" was just that. A strange font problem had cropped up under KDE in that branch, and after a month, it still wasn't fixed. Debian fans may appreciate the challenge of fixing these kinds of things themselves, but I'm over it. I finally settled on SuSE 8.2, and I have NO idea why any Linux user would have a problem with it. While I'm at it, I'll say that I was in the market for a new distro because of Red Hat's recent product "strategery." They can have it. SuSE is everything 9, nay, even 8.0, _should_ have been. (I think their quality went out the window with 8.) If SuSE pulls a Red Hat, and goes the same route with their licensing and strategy, I'll probably (finally) be going to Debian on the servers, but I'll probably wind up with Gentoo on the desktop. Getting back to your original point (it's always about apt to a Debian fan, isn't it?), I have no problems getting source and compiling the other things I want myself. I've done it on SuSE 8.2 with both gkrellm and MPlayer. I don't trust other people's RPM's, though there are lots of places to find the work already done for you. And don't say that RPM is more work than apt. I've tried both. On top of how easy it is to mirror a directory of update RPM's and do `rpm -Fvh *', SuSE has made YOU handle all the dependencies automatically just as well as dselect. If you want to go to the extreme, and start pinning this and pinning that, then you're at a level of complexity in your package management that surpasses anything in the RPM world, and I don't mean that in a good way.
I have done some of the only Excel macros that I know of in my Fortune 250 company, and they were -- and continue to be -- used on a regular basis every day for years. I can't recall the last time I got a call about them. They are quite extensive, as you example suggests, though I the program that did a pull from our mainframe went away many, many years ago.
It's unfair to say that, as a whole, VBA "programs" (more precisely: macros) are nightmarish, poorly documented, and brittle. I find that the object models are not as well documented as I care for, but that's a different animal. Everything you commented on is up to the programmer. If the macro is poorly documented or "brittle," then someone else needs to be writing the thing. There's no reason to lay the blame at Microsoft's feet for that. I can write undocumented, uncommented, non-robust applications in any language.
Now, all of that having been said, I do find that this way of fixing some problems is unfortunate as well. Locking my company further into bed with Microsoft is disturbing. I just spent the last month rewriting a VB6 app in.NET because it needed overhauling, and I figured it was time, since my company is one that got sucked into the Microsoft arm-twisting and bought into the upgrade-or-pay-full-price scenario, and now we're rolling out XP desktops.
I really, really hate to say this, but while I think Microsoft Office is an almost complete waste of money over OpenOffice, the ability to automate it with VBA is a compelling reason to use it, if you need some small applications that run on Windows. It's easy, fast, and flexible.
There are some really good comments here, but I haven't seen this one yet. I came to understand it because I've had several young people ask me to teach them to program. I'm of a strong opinion that programming can't be taught. At least, not useful, elegant, maintainable, and thrifty coding. I quite agree that coding is an art, and, as such, the old adage "writer's write" is key. I've heard this told to aspiring writers, and it simply means that if you have a future in writing, you will already be, say, keeping a journal, or submitting stories to the local paper, or, these days, keeping a blog. The point is that when someone is at the point you're at (asking if they should go into a field), you can predict their success based on what they're already doing. The bottom line is that if, as a sysadmin, you don't find that you're already writing a lot of programs to help you do your job, then you're probably not really a programmer. Can you do it anyway? Sure. Anyone can do anything they have the talent for given enough determination, but it will just be a job, and that tends to wear thin. I guess I'm in the camp that believes that a being able to write really good code is more of a gift than a talent, and finding your purpose in life is about finding your gifts. If you have that gift, you'll enjoy it. But if you do, you're probably already doing it.
I still say we need a +6 for these kinds of comments. Someone else once posted a followup to this thought that we ought to have "posts of the day" or somesuch. Whatever form it takes, we need a way to get the "best of the best" available in an easy-to-read form.
Hey, everybody knows that people who own computers simply steal all of their music from off the internet. The RIAA told them so, and they've got lots and lots of money, so it must be true!
And I'll argue that it didn't work in Ghandi's case at all. If you'll recall, he worked to unite the Hindus, the Muslims, and the Christians in India. He failed. The Muslims eventually split off and formed Pakistan anyway, despite everything that Ghandi was working for. And it's still one of the most racially-troubled (or religiously-troubled, depending on your point of view) spots in the world.
No, I'm afraid that in Microsoft's case, after fighting you, they'll get laws passed to make it illegal for you to continue to do what it is that's making them upset, then they'll just rat you out to a complicit government agency, and let *them* fight you. Sorry to sound so liberal, but I'm actually as right-wing as it gets. Either way, our government is too big, and therefore too ignorant, to avoid what's coming down the pipe legislatively. I would write more about the conflicting laws that are being passed, but the point is now that the fight is at the governmental level, and the only solution is for them to KEEP THEIR MITTS OFF THE INDUSTRY. They already supremely fouled up the Microsoft case. If anything, it only underscored Microsoft's ability to do whatever they wanted.
We don't have any control over the courts, but Congress does, and this is where we have to focus our attention. I've avoided it for years, but I've had enough. I'm going to be become a member of the ACLU, the NRA, and the EFF, and try to cover as many of my freedoms as possible.
I also believe you are giving up your rights by using Microsoft products. Their EULA are becoming draconian; at some poing, you will have no rights at all.
Have you read Red Hat's service agreements for the new "Enterprise" line? It'll shock you. They're not much different any more. We just printed ours out yesterday to read the fine print.
Don't believe me? How about, by agreeing, you give Red Hat the right to walk into your building at take stock of all your software. How's that for "Microsoft-like?"
We're going to be cancelling our contract. Which, by the way, you MUST do in writing, 60 days before the end, or you WILL be held accountable for another year's worth of your agreement. How's that for "IBM-like?"
The lines are getting fuzzier these days, fellow geeks. Please vote with your dollars. I'm not against Linux companies making money, but when a company changes your terms IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TERM, then there needs to be some karmic retribution.
How can we be talking about such trivial things as computer science when the Bush administration has, in only two years, turned our societal utopia into the wasteland of pollution, disease, and poverty it has now become?
Seriously, though, you must have a non-trivially-sized chip on your shoulder to turn this into a rant about Bush. If you're serious about *character*, and not *politics*, then I sure hope you were turning your/. comments into rants about the only impeached president a few years ago...
Re:It's more complicated than that.
on
Linus on DRM
·
· Score: 1
I think it's pretty clear that Linus himself doesn't actually understand the GPL or the minutiae all its legal consequences. He doesn't even appear to want to. In other words, the answer to "how could Linus say that?" is "by making an error".
Best. Troll. Ever.
Re:It's more complicated than that.
on
Linus on DRM
·
· Score: 1
I just can't see it this way. Zooming back out from the discussion a bit, what good would DRM on GPL'ed software be if you had to give away all your secret keys? None! So if this were the case, how could Linus say that DRM on the Linux kernel is not contradictory to the GPL? By your logic, even if it weren't, it would still be useless, and so then: what would be the point of his post?
This is a great idea until you see the requirements for the backend server you need to do this for any reasonably-sized workforce... Then Citrix terminal servers start sounding a whole lot better, even if they don't have the smart-card stuff. (But maybe you could attach that to client PC's?)
Only on Slashdot would this get moderated as +5 Insightful. What was the insight, again, for those of us apparently dispossesed of the ability to see it?
I just underwent a huge email tribulation at work. I've been on RedHat for about 5 years now, getting my corporate Exchange email through a variety of means. The lastest one was comprised of setting having fetchmail grab my mail from the Exchange server over IMAP, and filter it through spamassassin via procmail. Then I'd grab it through IMAP to my local machine, but the folders (except for the inbox, since this will NOT work) were all on an NFS mount to be backed up. Now I've installed Gentoo, and I wanted less fooling around with email. So I emerged evolution and really explored it. I've been using it at home for a long time now, but besides doing my IMAP mail at home (off my own email server), I like the Palm Pilot integration.
What does this have to do with you? Sorry, I'm off track. What I found at work is that this thing is the Outlook Express of the Linux world. (If you've never really looked at OE, it's tough. Microsoft actually made a really good product, and then covered it up with their much less useful one, Outlook.) It does like 6 different mail methods, including maildir. (You never said what OS you're using, but I'm assuming it's Linux.) You can set Evolution up to have both your current IMAP server and a maildir heirarchy. (Just create ~/Maildir with/cur,/new, and/tmp subdirs.) Then just drag and drop. If you're on a slow link, it may take awhile, but you can control how this gets done. What I find in these situations is that this is a time for cleaning up. The other methods discussed here will probably be faster, but you probably won't streamline anything with the move.
Slashdot Mirror
Don't be ridiculous. It's a sure thing that one of these guys has already gotten the output of a "very small shell" script (that took many days to run) and now has the relevant portions that look as though they include code from SysV sources. It's also a sure bet that they've shared this information with eveyone who SCO is suing. I think they're just being quiet about it so that 1) they have a chance to be fully prepared for all the angles, and 2) it will be a much more dramatic victory over SCO when it all comes out.
I'd like to play it, because most everything the Chapmans have done until now has been a scream, but I don't have a console, nor do I want to buy one. I've got no problems with buying a ROM file and trying an emu, and I think there are a lot of HR fans that are in the same boat. Here's hoping they just sell the ROM file from the cart alongside the cart itself.
I think part of this is fueled by the notion that -- at least in America -- we like underdogs. In general, we don't begrudge people the millions they earn, but when they start using that financial power against _our_ ability to earn... Well, that's just not fair. So when Linus uses RMS's tools to complete a totally-open system, and spreads it using totally-unrestricted means, we like that. Now it has become a matter of sticking it to "the man." I don't think that a lot of us geeks would care about Microsoft -- I mean, I think we'd have a "live and let live" attitude towards them -- if they were just happy to do business on the strengths of their technologies. But when they use that clout to run other people and companies and technologies out of the market, that's when it gets personal.
I'm as critical of Debian as anyone, probably because I really, really like their philosophy. Unfortunately, their philosophy causes them to be about 2 years behind the current average Linux distro. On the other hand, Debian stays this far behind because all the work done to the distro must work across, what?, about 9 different architectures. (Maybe it was 11?) This includes the installer. I've given Debian a whirl, but I haven't made the jump yet. However, there's a chance that I might get a dozen old HP and Sun workstations that are collecting dust at my company, and the thought of being able to run the same Linux distro across both platforms really, really intrigues me. Debian on x86? Well, if you really want to, I guess. But Debian on non-x86? Hands down. "Real" Unix machines that can find their way into hobbyists hands won't be bleeding edge, and Debian's lag will actually be a huge asset to someone wanting to outfit such a machine.
Sure I'm trying to be funny, but the situation really isn't very funny at all. I've tried Debian, back on potato, and just recently with woody. The people that flock to Debian's defense have got serious denial issues. Sure "stable" is stable. It ought to be. It's two years behind the current status quo. I actually appreciate that. But I like to run the same OS on both the desktop and the server. (Maybe that's "unenlighted" from Debian's point of view, but I think that's the only way to really _master_ a distro.) The problem is that I really like the newer apps (like Evolution) and the newer kernels (like post 2.4.19, that will support my Tungsten T). Getting this requires you to go to the "bleeding edge" -- as everyone keeps saying -- in the Debian world. Unfortunately, this last time I was trying to make a go of Debian, it also proved that "unstable" was just that. A strange font problem had cropped up under KDE in that branch, and after a month, it still wasn't fixed. Debian fans may appreciate the challenge of fixing these kinds of things themselves, but I'm over it. I finally settled on SuSE 8.2, and I have NO idea why any Linux user would have a problem with it. While I'm at it, I'll say that I was in the market for a new distro because of Red Hat's recent product "strategery." They can have it. SuSE is everything 9, nay, even 8.0, _should_ have been. (I think their quality went out the window with 8.) If SuSE pulls a Red Hat, and goes the same route with their licensing and strategy, I'll probably (finally) be going to Debian on the servers, but I'll probably wind up with Gentoo on the desktop. Getting back to your original point (it's always about apt to a Debian fan, isn't it?), I have no problems getting source and compiling the other things I want myself. I've done it on SuSE 8.2 with both gkrellm and MPlayer. I don't trust other people's RPM's, though there are lots of places to find the work already done for you. And don't say that RPM is more work than apt. I've tried both. On top of how easy it is to mirror a directory of update RPM's and do `rpm -Fvh *', SuSE has made YOU handle all the dependencies automatically just as well as dselect. If you want to go to the extreme, and start pinning this and pinning that, then you're at a level of complexity in your package management that surpasses anything in the RPM world, and I don't mean that in a good way.
So, given Debian's release cycle, that's like, what? One upgrade? Over the past 7 years?
I have done some of the only Excel macros that I know of in my Fortune 250 company, and they were -- and continue to be -- used on a regular basis every day for years. I can't recall the last time I got a call about them. They are quite extensive, as you example suggests, though I the program that did a pull from our mainframe went away many, many years ago.
.NET because it needed overhauling, and I figured it was time, since my company is one that got sucked into the Microsoft arm-twisting and bought into the upgrade-or-pay-full-price scenario, and now we're rolling out XP desktops.
It's unfair to say that, as a whole, VBA "programs" (more precisely: macros) are nightmarish, poorly documented, and brittle. I find that the object models are not as well documented as I care for, but that's a different animal. Everything you commented on is up to the programmer. If the macro is poorly documented or "brittle," then someone else needs to be writing the thing. There's no reason to lay the blame at Microsoft's feet for that. I can write undocumented, uncommented, non-robust applications in any language.
Now, all of that having been said, I do find that this way of fixing some problems is unfortunate as well. Locking my company further into bed with Microsoft is disturbing. I just spent the last month rewriting a VB6 app in
I really, really hate to say this, but while I think Microsoft Office is an almost complete waste of money over OpenOffice, the ability to automate it with VBA is a compelling reason to use it, if you need some small applications that run on Windows. It's easy, fast, and flexible.
There are some really good comments here, but I haven't seen this one yet. I came to understand it because I've had several young people ask me to teach them to program. I'm of a strong opinion that programming can't be taught. At least, not useful, elegant, maintainable, and thrifty coding. I quite agree that coding is an art, and, as such, the old adage "writer's write" is key. I've heard this told to aspiring writers, and it simply means that if you have a future in writing, you will already be, say, keeping a journal, or submitting stories to the local paper, or, these days, keeping a blog. The point is that when someone is at the point you're at (asking if they should go into a field), you can predict their success based on what they're already doing. The bottom line is that if, as a sysadmin, you don't find that you're already writing a lot of programs to help you do your job, then you're probably not really a programmer. Can you do it anyway? Sure. Anyone can do anything they have the talent for given enough determination, but it will just be a job, and that tends to wear thin. I guess I'm in the camp that believes that a being able to write really good code is more of a gift than a talent, and finding your purpose in life is about finding your gifts. If you have that gift, you'll enjoy it. But if you do, you're probably already doing it.
/me picks himself off floor
I still say we need a +6 for these kinds of comments. Someone else once posted a followup to this thought that we ought to have "posts of the day" or somesuch. Whatever form it takes, we need a way to get the "best of the best" available in an easy-to-read form.
Hey, everybody knows that people who own computers simply steal all of their music from off the internet. The RIAA told them so, and they've got lots and lots of money, so it must be true!
IBM will get an injunction. They can show some of the OSI arguments to a judge and just get a revokation stopped until the case goes to court.
Did anyone notice this?! I wasn't paying attention.
SCO 's Stock Performance
I think it's high time that the SEC got involved here.
In the land of Starbucks, populated by successful compsci types, $2 is an _awfully_ cheap cup of coffee...
And I'll argue that it didn't work in Ghandi's case at all. If you'll recall, he worked to unite the Hindus, the Muslims, and the Christians in India. He failed. The Muslims eventually split off and formed Pakistan anyway, despite everything that Ghandi was working for. And it's still one of the most racially-troubled (or religiously-troubled, depending on your point of view) spots in the world.
No, I'm afraid that in Microsoft's case, after fighting you, they'll get laws passed to make it illegal for you to continue to do what it is that's making them upset, then they'll just rat you out to a complicit government agency, and let *them* fight you. Sorry to sound so liberal, but I'm actually as right-wing as it gets. Either way, our government is too big, and therefore too ignorant, to avoid what's coming down the pipe legislatively. I would write more about the conflicting laws that are being passed, but the point is now that the fight is at the governmental level, and the only solution is for them to KEEP THEIR MITTS OFF THE INDUSTRY. They already supremely fouled up the Microsoft case. If anything, it only underscored Microsoft's ability to do whatever they wanted.
We don't have any control over the courts, but Congress does, and this is where we have to focus our attention. I've avoided it for years, but I've had enough. I'm going to be become a member of the ACLU, the NRA, and the EFF, and try to cover as many of my freedoms as possible.
Have you read Red Hat's service agreements for the new "Enterprise" line? It'll shock you. They're not much different any more. We just printed ours out yesterday to read the fine print.
Don't believe me? How about, by agreeing, you give Red Hat the right to walk into your building at take stock of all your software. How's that for "Microsoft-like?"
We're going to be cancelling our contract. Which, by the way, you MUST do in writing, 60 days before the end, or you WILL be held accountable for another year's worth of your agreement. How's that for "IBM-like?"
The lines are getting fuzzier these days, fellow geeks. Please vote with your dollars. I'm not against Linux companies making money, but when a company changes your terms IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TERM, then there needs to be some karmic retribution.
"The question is moot!"
/. comments into rants about the only impeached president a few years ago...
How can we be talking about such trivial things as computer science when the Bush administration has, in only two years, turned our societal utopia into the wasteland of pollution, disease, and poverty it has now become?
Seriously, though, you must have a non-trivially-sized chip on your shoulder to turn this into a rant about Bush. If you're serious about *character*, and not *politics*, then I sure hope you were turning your
Best. Troll. Ever.
I just can't see it this way. Zooming back out from the discussion a bit, what good would DRM on GPL'ed software be if you had to give away all your secret keys? None! So if this were the case, how could Linus say that DRM on the Linux kernel is not contradictory to the GPL? By your logic, even if it weren't, it would still be useless, and so then: what would be the point of his post?
So are spelling, grammer, and syntax, it would seem...
This is a great idea until you see the requirements for the backend server you need to do this for any reasonably-sized workforce... Then Citrix terminal servers start sounding a whole lot better, even if they don't have the smart-card stuff. (But maybe you could attach that to client PC's?)
Only on Slashdot would this get moderated as +5 Insightful. What was the insight, again, for those of us apparently dispossesed of the ability to see it?
FOXNews
Drudge
Rush
InstaPundit
The Bleat
Dilbert
Blue's
jwz
Davezilla
... And the proof is an EXERCISE LEFT TO THE READER.
How I HATE that phrase...
dk
BSME '91, Purdue University
I mean, that's the point of the study, right? No, I haven't read it. But that's the point of EVERY government study: to justify more taxes.
I just underwent a huge email tribulation at work. I've been on RedHat for about 5 years now, getting my corporate Exchange email through a variety of means. The lastest one was comprised of setting having fetchmail grab my mail from the Exchange server over IMAP, and filter it through spamassassin via procmail. Then I'd grab it through IMAP to my local machine, but the folders (except for the inbox, since this will NOT work) were all on an NFS mount to be backed up. Now I've installed Gentoo, and I wanted less fooling around with email. So I emerged evolution and really explored it. I've been using it at home for a long time now, but besides doing my IMAP mail at home (off my own email server), I like the Palm Pilot integration.
/cur, /new, and /tmp subdirs.) Then just drag and drop. If you're on a slow link, it may take awhile, but you can control how this gets done. What I find in these situations is that this is a time for cleaning up. The other methods discussed here will probably be faster, but you probably won't streamline anything with the move.
What does this have to do with you? Sorry, I'm off track. What I found at work is that this thing is the Outlook Express of the Linux world. (If you've never really looked at OE, it's tough. Microsoft actually made a really good product, and then covered it up with their much less useful one, Outlook.) It does like 6 different mail methods, including maildir. (You never said what OS you're using, but I'm assuming it's Linux.) You can set Evolution up to have both your current IMAP server and a maildir heirarchy. (Just create ~/Maildir with