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Introduction to Debian
[vmlinuz] writes "SitePoint has an article that I wrote that introduces Debian and has guidelines on installing it. This could be usefull for managers, new users and other people that may be interested in using Debian." And honestly, who among us isn't interested in using the obviously superior Linux Distribution against which there can be no other contenders? (Oh dear god don't flame me! It's a joke people!)
Gentoo is gonna get modded down.
*dives for the bunker*
You know you can't say something like that around here!
..and in this corner weighing in at a mere 83 pounds, Cmdr Taco!
My biggest complaint w/ debian is the slow release cycle. I'd like to be able to pin the newest KDE/gnome/whatever to stable and do an apt-get upgrade without breaking a million things. Last time I pinned kde 3.1 and updated I spent three days finding broken stuff and fixing it.
And yes, I am aware of the other debian-based distros that are more up to date, but they're all (to my knowledge) pay distros, and I am looking for something cheap/free.
FreeBSD for the impatient.
to quote the article: "There is a distinct possibility that some Linux vendors may close up shop, change their business direction or adjust their practices in some other way. Thus, the distribution you use today may not be around in 10 years. "
I thought the beauty of open source was that even if the original author (be it a natural person(s) or a company) decides to no longer support a project that the source is there for you to look at and provide your own support.
Accentuate the positive, don't waste your mod points on the negative.
This would be a great flavor of linux for anyone who wants to be associated with managers, new users and other people. Unfortunately, these qualities are not very prevalent in real *nix subcultures.
No, here's a joke.
How many Debian users does it take to change a lightbulb?
Just one, but he has know how to apt-get install liblightbulb1. apt-get install light-switch-client if you want to be able to turn it on.
Oh, please... It's a joke, isn't it?
I'll be glad to see if there's any managers USE Debian. Managers INSTALLING Debian... ?? Wow! It's so... "news that matters".
--
Error 500: Internal sig error
Read the parent to understand why.
and while we're at it, what's lignux?
Keep your packets off my GNU/Girlfriend!
And honestly, who among us isn't interested in using the obviously superior Linux Distribution against which there can be no other contenders? (Oh dear god don't flame me! It's a joke people!)
:-) Debian just needs to get over the fear of anything new, such as anything graphical. Judging by unstable it looks like they are moving in the right direction.
Well if debian could get their installer and hardware detection right I don't know how far off that statement would be
Thanks CmdrTaco..I am switching to Debian this fall..
.,hurray
Debian has no software patents and doesn;t like them
Don't Tread on OpenSource
You are obivously in SCO's side. The word GNU doesn't appear in the article even once.
Debian is sometimes superior to other Linux distributions but IMHO the installer is just horrid. When compared to other Linux installers, notably RedHat (which is very nice), it fails. Other than that, Debian seems to be the way to go for any would-be Linux guru.
For those turned off or scared away by the debian install process (which still seems stuck in the 90's. Jesus, did I just say that?), grab a Knoppix CD.
No, seriously. I don't run debian primarily because I don't want to go through the install process. I don't know what chipset my nic has, and I really don't care to know, know what I mean? Ditto with everything else.
I've been using flavors of RedHat, culminating with Redhat9 that's currently my Linux of "choice", mainly because Redhat offered superior hardware detection/setup. But, I've always had to tweak a bit here and there to get it working nicely.
However, with the advent of Knoppix, I think that's about to change. I popped in Knoppix 3.2 today for the first time to see what it was all about. The hardware detection on this LIVE CD is absolutely.. superb. It recognized and setup my Orinoco Wireless card. It found and mounted my Sony Cybershot Camera. Jesus, it even found and setup my Wacom! The only thing it didn't do was give me dual-head support OOB, but I don't think I know any distro that does that. But that's okay, fortunately I know how to set that up myself. It comes with KDE, it looks great, it just WORKS. And because it "just works" I'm really tempted to wipe RedHat off and do the HD install of this.
Some notes that I've come across, though: As Knoppix uses a special blend of testing/unstable (or something like that), it's really hard to do dist-upgrade and what not without downgrading your desktop. I heartily recommend reading through the docs at the Knoppix website and finding out what issues may remain. As a desktop Debian based distro, though, I think Knoppix just plain rules.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
So far, I've been a Redhat man. It's served me well so far. I did try Debian, and I tried to like it, but it just didn't turn me on. I've tried Gentoo over this weekend, and while I wouldn't install it on any servers at work (yet), it's a pretty slick little distro.
I used to get annoyed at all the kiddies proclaiming Gentoo, Gentoo, but since I've tried it, I like it. You start to realise how long a glibc, XFree86, kde , and mozilla compile takes though. For those of you who haven't tried it - it makes a kernel compile look like a walk in the park. I started it on Friday evening, and it's now Sunday afternoon. It's been running flat out all this time. And that's a P4 2GHz with 1Gb RAM. ;)
I haven't found out how to list installed packages yet though
PS. Mod me down, I don't care. Karma to burn, baby.
Get your own free personal location tracker
The only good things about debian is: stability, and apt-get
The price to pay with stability is that you get to use very old applications. If you use unstable, then it breaks.
Apt-get has been copied off by every distro now. So if you are using linux in a desktop, skip debian (great for servers though)
Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication
shouldn't he be modded "insightful"?
Yum!
I'm undisputedly a Slackware geek but I have to admit that Debian really is a better system. Whenever I feel the need to deploy some kind of GNU/Linux application, I find time and time again that it's easier and faster to do in Debian. More and more these days, however, when I need to deploy some kind of *nix application FreeBSD beats all the competition hands down as a platform. It's simply superior.
P.S. Redhat is no good at all. It's not that I'm being close-minded, but every single time I try to use Redhat it ends up wasting huge amounts of my time.
LEARNING, n. The kind of ignorance distinguishing the studious. A. Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
Uh, get the 10MB bootflooppies netinst cd. Install woody.
/etc/apt/sources.list
$EDITOR
Replace all instances of 'stable' with 'testing'
apt-get update
apt-get upgrade
Congradulations, you're running testing.
TODO: Something witty here...
Slackware for everything! Use only 'cuz it's l33t.
Karma whorin' since 1999
Its gonna take some serious effort to get me off using Red Hat Linux. The latest versions, teamed with enterprise level RHN accounts make running multiple servers a dream.. I don't have any complaints with the product or the support, and their sales people are really friendly as well.
:)
Can't wait to do my RH253 course with them next month
"Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"
I've always wondered what reason may someone have to choose debian for personal use???? /.) that just can't stop themselves once the talk is on the obvious "debian superiority"... Than again, what's with those guys? I mean, sure, apt-get is a nice app, but I don't think it may be a push someone to choose debian over another distro, however, if you have problem to find a package and manually install it, you definitely have no use of a Linux distribution, or if you have than it better don't be debian. So it seems taht the people going all loud about how advanced apt-get is, have not *major* advantage of it at all.(I'm not familiar if there're some advanced uses of apt-get(synchonized update of packages or anything), so feel free to flame on me....) .gifs(ot: maybe it'll have now that there's no more patent royalties;oPP), or the fact that the Debian team does not seem to have any of the commercial goes of the Big 3????? ;oP for all debian zealots(and no, dependancies are not important)), to all my friends searching for a minimal installation, and Mandrake, to all those who want a Desktop like experience and no manual hardware configuration.
It seems that there're a lot of people(not only on
So what does Debian offer besides that??? It can't be easy hardware configuration, RedHat,SuSe and especialyl Mandrake are far ahead. Is it just the fact that the official site has no fancy
Anyway, I keep recommending Slackware(the distribution with the best keyboard based install,
So where does Debian fit in this picture???
Oh, and please don't say that the biggest part of the www servers are Debian based, it just ain't true.....
1. No sig. 2. ???? 3. Profit!!!
My own experience with Debian:
:-)
I have a number of longtime hardcore Linux fans, most notably my (now) roommate. After being ridiculed for a long time about my use of Windows (especially my need to reinstall it every three months, due to it's tendency to crap out, regardless of which one I used--9x, 2000, XP), I decided I'd try this so-called "Linux".
So I asked for a copy. Not even being aware that I had a choice of distributions, I took the first cd set given to me--"Woody", at that time Debian's testing distro, later to become Debian 3.0.
At first, I kinda freaked. No pretty graphical install, but it really wasn't so bad. I've been through worse in DOS. The instructions were pretty straightforward, though I did have to ask my friend what NIC driver to use (it was tulip). But after about an hour, I had a working system, with WindowMaker as my default window manager, and witha simple "startx"....
It worked.
And didn't stop, ever. It's never even paused on me. Since then, I've taught myself every intimate detail of linux in general, and even tried a few other distros on my other machines, but always end up going back to Debian (though now I'm running unstable--I like to live dangerously). Even used it to turn my crappy 486/DX66 Toshiba Satellite w/16MB of RAM into a useful internet terminal for my living room.
It's not the easiest way to start, but when you're done, you'll have a good grasp of everything you'll need for an everyday system, and adding features or building a custom "utility system"(email server, firewall, etc.) is just an apt-get away. Overall, I'd highly recommend it to anyone.
Unless you're really -that- lazy.
[este]
Recent gem article's from them include:
"image resizing in php" that is actually just a trick to use the height and width properties of the <img> tag to make the browser resize the image. "I don't feel like having 4,000 different thumbnails on my server for each product..."
And, "practical web design with tables" for people who think "CSS is too hard"
I've been using Debian GNU/Linux (unstable) for the last 3-4 years and it runs perfectly stable. I update my system almost every day without dependency problems - I have never reinstalled the system from scratch since the package managment (dpkg/apt-get, whatever) takes care of my system and doesn't mess up anything.
The old Debian installer is somewhat technical, but who doesn't like that? I find the old installer much more easy to use than Windows XP's setup. If the only reason for hating Debian is the (soon to be deprecated) text mode installer, you really should just run away.
Debian is the superior distribution!
-- 6 times 7 equals 42
Sure it's a pain, but it takes me right back to those damn DOS days where I had to switch cards around ISA slots and move jumpers here and there just to get the IRQs friendly with each other.
The newer distributions are getting more and more friendly, and while this can only be a good thing it brings along some bad points as well -- Some users hardly know their hardware at all, and end up flooding public message boards with stupid questions that would have been easily resolved. Of course I do realize having people RTFM is pointless when the OS is so easy to get running, but this ease of use has in a way contributed to a "dumbing down" of the average end user.
My friend got me started on debian (my 1st linux box was debian) before even using redhat, mandrake, or anything else. Then I went back and tried to use redhat, mandrake, etc (rpm based distros); and I was completely lost and found it took ten times longer trying to figure out where everything was, and how to do things. Not to mention dependancy Hell.
Ok, maybe I didnt give these other distros much of a chance, BUT when I just got the job done on debain, I didnt want anything else. I have been running debain unstable for almost a year and a half now full time and I love it.
GNU/Hey GNU/stupid GNU/it's GNU/supposed GNU/to GNU/be GNU/Debian/GNU GNU/Linux/GNU.
scott
try Gentoo. The community is very helpful. Message boards extremely useful, as is IRC room. You won't get told that your a stupid newbie, and they won't "RTFM, bitch" you.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Although good in theory, in practice the RPM technology experienced problems with dependencies.
:)
Get apt-get for rpm. I don't even bother to register at rhn.redhat.com for getting that 'up2date' to work.
I mean come on, there ARE no current stable releases. Who wants to download updates all day. Slackware LIVES!
there's a great autodetection system in a debian based distro (namely Knoppix).
you can just install knoppix to hard drive and add additional apt repositories.
why it hasn't been included into the main branch then?
debian supports more than 10 platforms and AFAIK it would be against debian policy to favorize one (ia32) over others (and knoppix autodetection supports only ia32)
the graphical interface and autodetection are planned but we'll probalby have to wait a little bit more...
on the other hand the fact that debian supports so many platfors and includes only free software pays off, there're lots of debian based distibutions including OpenZaurus for ARM and lots of liveCD
as for up-to-date software - i dont think there's other linux distro than could compare with debian sid where updates are daily and usually there's a debian package after just a few days after the release
This sort of support reply is exactly why I *don't* use debian.
CmdrTaco isn't very funny, now it he?
But, for those of you who want the bleeding edge without risking instability, Debian does just fine there if you know what you're doing. Go ahead and jump to unstable. Seriously!
The only thing you're missing is "apt-listbugs," which does this automatically with every update...
Before starting installation, apt-listbugs fetches all the bug reports for versions between your current version and the target version. We can see that two bugs have been closed (fixed by later versions, or the bug reports were bogus), and we see that the tetex-bin bug is still open.
In this case, we'd type 'h tetex-bin' to hold the broken package and proceed with a perfectly usable system.
Of course, this still leaves you in the position to be the one in ten thousand who finds a critical bug on installing any given package. If that happens, be a Good Debizen and use reportbug so the next guy is notified. Further, if you flag a critical bug, it's rare that it isn't fixed within a couple hours, even at 2am on Sunday. Once you've reported your bug, go ahead and roll back a version and carry on until the developer closes the bug -- if you used reportbug, you'll get an all-clear email automatically when he or she closes the bug.
With unstable and the apt-listbugs' automatic reports, the chances of ever winding up with a broken system are exceptionally low. Showstopper bugs are rare even in unstable -- maybe one package update in five thousand. But, with thousands of other users snarfing packages and reporting any bugs, the chances of your being the one to discover breakage without apt-listbugs warning you first are virtually nil.
All that said, if you can bear to be a week to a month behind the bleeding edge, you can use apt-listbugs with testing as well. The chances of getting a broken system with testing and apt-listbugs are about the same as the chance of Windows Service Update not needing a reboot. Virtually nil.
Sitepoint, eh. Another name for a bunch of address harvesting jerks. Their articles are dumbed down to the point of uselessness, except for PHB types. Their articles are often inaccurate or misleading, suggesting that the author hasn't a clue what it's writing about.
Don't go there.
Just like the first post said... YOU DID GET MODDED DOWN!
The reason most jokes are funny is that there is an element of truth to them.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
And honestly, who among us isn't interested in using the obviously superior Linux Distribution
With GNU/Hurd and GNU/FreeBSD being Debian also, the above statement makes Hurd *AND* FreeBSD Linux!
What's next? Running WINE and Microsoft Office on GNU/something makes Microsoft Office 'Linux'?
-1 +1, circular reference?
:)
I've been messing with Excel all morning
debian isn't just a distro. it's a lifestyle.
Wimps and couch potatoes with their grey tasteless distros don't understand the pleasure a good distro gives. We offer two exquisite distro flavors for the linux user with style:
- STABLE: coke drinking folks will never get it, but programs are like good red wine. They get better with age. That's why we only include very old programs in this distro. If you think that these programs are outdated and full with bugs that have since then been corrected in newer program versions, you miss the point: this isn't a fast-food distro. It's a distro you use at candlelight.
- UNSTABLE: this is our distro for the fast and the furious. If you're complaining about this distro and saying that Mandrake and Gentoo both have up-to-date versions that, unlike debian, aren't actually "unstable", you miss the point and you're most probably a wimp. This distro isn't for couch potatoes but for people who love the thrill of the risk. For people who play carmageddon for real in their SUVs, go bungee jumping and skydiving and just occasionally forget to take a parachute. But that's what makes the kick of debian unstable.
Debian isn't just a distro. it's a lifestyle. It's what separates the men from the boys. Go download your copy from www.debian.org now
Yeah, he's really riling up the crowd with that heated request for tips and tricks. Geez.
Just a small nipick, on your page you offer to install Debain for $40 ;)
The parent post is world-class sucking up, if you ask me!
*Sigh* Mods (mod?) on a Debian Jihad... Seems like every post here that isn't properly Debian worshipping or (even worse!) is writing something positive about Gentoo is modded as 'Troll' or 'Redundant'. What's wrong with some Debian people? Why so fundamentalist?
Meep.
why? seriously.. if you're going to use ANY unix/linux/bsd based operating system you're going to have to go to the command line eventually. the only possible exception is mac os x.
Debian, who brand their dist as GNU/Linux following the example of the Great Leader, ESR.
Debian, who have flame wars on the developers over whether a contribution is free enough.
Debian, where 'stable' means two years old.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
Try Debian Help or Debian Community or even one of the mailing lists. And, of course, you can usually get instant answers by asking on irc.debian.org.
There is plenty of good community support available for Debian. The only time I've ever seen anyone suggest "RTFM" is when someone posts nonsence questions to the developers mailing lists without bothering to check the various developers manuals. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect DEVELOPERS to RTFM. Users are a whole different subject.
The *BEST* way to understand Debian is to see the movie Uzumaki. This documentry shows the origins of the Debian community and the influence it still has today.
"Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
Although we rely on it, the release cycle really does screw us from time to time, and in the long drag before Woody finally released, we seriously contemplated a bunch of alternative distributions. The joke emerged at the time - about the two main flavours of Debian, being of course: Debian/Stale and Debian/Broken :)
Because everyone who has a CD to sell, they
have flood us with advertisements and links
to their distro. The topic is about Debian. It
is not about BSD, Gentoo, Windows, or Solaris.
I have lately been discontent with the seeming lack of effort in technical articles both in print and on the web. It seems that too many authors are just piecing together non-sensical ramblings in between their Unreal sessions and whatever else they're doing. Like many of my fellow /.'ers, I read extensivley, although mostly non-fiction in my case. I found this article to be amazingly well written for the intended audience. Kudos to you Mr. Bacon. You have re-affirmed my conviction that it is possible to present technical information to non-technical crowds, thus showing that authors need not assume that everyone is inherintly dumb, as I see far to often. My hat his off to you for this wonderful article which I actually enjoyed reading.
In former times it might have been an administrator of a large amount of computers.
There is nothing so configurable and ready for large setup. (Though of course this gets harder and harder with the time, as Linux is currently dying slowly (or at least dethly suffering) from too much former Windows user developing for it.)
Morphix is a modular variant of Knoppix. The FAQ explains the differences between Morphix and Knoppix. Simply put, Morphix is much more flexible than Knoppix.
I did an HD-install of the KDE (3.1.1) main-mod. The only problem I had was the with boot configuration (I have an unusual setup), the problem was solved by downloading the boot-disk image that contains the ever-useful Smart Boot Manager (I wish that more distros would, at least, include this as an option).
Minor problem asside, the install went smoothly, it was much, much easier than installing Debian from DVD. You also get much more recent versions of the desktop packages.
Debian, Knoppix, and Morphix are all excellent projects.
Someone wrote a comment along the lines of, "since Gentoo has appeared, all the fucking morons haven't been here on Debian so much".
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
What exactly is wrong with dselect? What do you use instead? Why do you find that tool superior?
Installed the Bubblemon yet?
This is not the case with Debian. The Debian project is entirely volunteer-run and doesn't seek to generate profit. This essentially means that, while the will is there to continue to improve Debian, the project will always progress, irrespective of economic matters.
What you're forgetting in your idealized model of the world is that Debian is maintained/written by the same kind of human beings who do it for any other software. And said human being are equally prone to the human weaknesses:
1) They need to eat.
You forgot economics - the free time of Debian volunteers is not really ***free*** - it is just that the cost is their time/effort. It may not be PAID by the users, but it ain't FREE. Someone (them, or their family/parents, or donors, or taxpayers if the maintainer is on welfare) is paying for their food/board/entertainment/equipment/electricity.
2) Humans lose interest. As a matter of fact, i'm unsure of whether the paid development or unpaid is more stable in that regard - while Mr. Redhat Random Engineer's work is subject to the whims of the market (i.e. while the market is interested in his product, the company will get money, he will get paid, and he will thus have some incentive to keep developing it), the Mr. Debian Volunteer might change his mind about working on a project at any time at all as - aside from his interest - nothing entices him to sink his time/effort into it.
In case you disagree, take a look at the amount of half-baked, never-finished dead projects and compare them with the in-evelopment ones. Or read a
-DVK
"The right to figure things out for yourself is the only true freedom everyone shares. Go use it"-R.A.Heinlein
That's right, pansies. Most of the posts here have commented about how Debian is out-of-date or "hard to install" because it doesn't have a graphical install tool. The dselect program is too hard, they say. Nevermind the fact that you only have to read a small help screen to get the hang of its basic capabilities. Nevermind the fact that it gives you a lot of power to decide what/how your system will be configured with. Nevermind the fact that the packages aren't cutting edge because they've been tested over and over for months to verify that they are indeed stable and fit for running on a production server. Nevermind that you can still compile you own tools if you really want to (like I do everytime the lastest stable PostgreSQL is released), most of them simply requiring a "configure && make && make install".
And you know what? I think Debian doesn't go far enough! What I really need is a server OS. Give me even more stability, more security, more compatibility with standards (POSIX, etc.), better man pages! I tell ya, if OpenBSD had SMP support, I'd be switching all my servers in a heartbeat...
But nobody here cares about that. Mod me down suckers, it'll just prove my point. Go drool over the purty XP desktops...
Its one of the easiest to install and admin linuxs going. Its also the best industry supported distro going. Like someone already pointed out Red Hat+apt-get > Debian.
Easy to use, free, widely supported, plus its the best looking distro out of the box. Plus they are strong supporters of linux and are a large reason why linux is where it is today.
The only thing thing I don't like is how they have gone to a one year support cycle for their free version. But hey, I'm not the one footing the bill for all that testing, R&D, and free updates.
For a Debian Desktop I won't use anything but Morphix or even better whipix. Mainline debian's lack of focus on usability has only resulted in ever decreasing marketshare. Until they get basic things that other distros mastered years ago like a GUI install and HW detection down they will continue to rank among the lesser used distros.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
> The only thing it didn't do was give me dual-head
find a distro that does give you dual-head and let me know - i'll switch in an instant.
f64 : ignoring proof reading since 1978
Troll? I'll disagree in that I think the 'flamebait' rating of the parent is unwarranted. All options should be considered when articles are brought up. Again, as someone who has experience with both distros mentioned, I fail to see how I'm 'trolling' here.
Debian is a fine distro, but it's not for everyone.
CB
free ipod and free gmail!
I got it for $39 from their website.
The file explorer alone is worth that cost, not to mention support for Windows network resources than can actually be called modern!
1) I do the install and get the hardware working. Even Mandrake can screw up on some hardware, and if you don't even know how to edit text files, you're not going to be able to recover. Most people learn an OS that's pre-installed for them. Why not Linux?
2) They don't have to stress about packaged depends. It's taken care of in a very simple, powerful, and elegant way. I've been using APT for years now, and I still learn something new about cool ways to use it almost weekly.
3) Packages aren't broken "out of the box" as they frequently are in RH or Mandrake. Users can use a subset of the utilities and get used to them rather than searching for which text editor crashes the least.
4) The rules on how packages behave are standardized, and file location/behavior is very predictable. Good for people to learn about good UNIX directory structure use.
5) Things work and configure properly on their own, but you can hand-tune text config files without breaking some bizarre mother configuration script that depends on it being the only thing that ever edits the files.
Once the user gets used to the shell, the directory structure, and basic system management, we talk about the installation process, and they can ususally basically handle it on their own. I learned Linux through the "trial by fire" of installing it wihtout even knowing how to use the text editors. It was painful and it took forever. No matter how pretty a face you put on the installer, you can't get around the fact that OS installs are usually not for beginners. Better to make the system self-consistent and manageable than to allow the user to easily install an OS himself that he has no hope of properly managing for himself.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
...of needless difficulty (installing) and convenience (apt).
The easiest package manager has for years been out of reach to middling techies who want to make the jump from Windows, because Debian is too hard to install.
OTOH, Debian makes a great base for distros that are actually user-oriented: Xandros, Lindows, ELx, Libranet, Knoppix, etc.
I am not trying to fuel a flame here, but I don't really think there are that many "common people" such as plain old managers who know about Linux. IT people are the ones who would be most effective.
Too bad some IT managers view the choce as "Linux = no counterstrike". The network administrator for my Cable ISP really sucks at Counterstrike, but he loves to play it while on the clock.
Many tech support people are worse though. For example, when trying to get my friend's DSL modem to work with Mandrake Linux 8.0, I had to call up tech support. After the guy had me on hold for a while, he comes back on and says "You're trying to get your DSL modem to work with your Lexus, right?"
As far as Linux vs. Windows goes, I believe OpenOffice.org is a great office suite and almost any buisiness can use Linux for all their office administration tasks. If the company wants to focus on their business, not the computer, Linux distros make for good operating systems. If the people in charge of a company favor having fashon makeover software instead of saving hundreds per seat for MS Office and Windows, so be it.
As far as the companies who buy MS products and then lock the computers with Secure PC or Foolproof, management either is very rich and loves the Windows logo, or is probably leading the company downhill.
> Does this version of the document cover the revolutionary new 2.2.x version of the kernel?
It may even cover the ultra-revolutionary 2.4bf (bootfloppy version of 2.4.18) kernel available to anyone who reads the installer's online help.
Oh, you don't want to bother reading anything, especially online help? Move along please, move along...
Small but significant correction:
apt-get update
apt-get dist-upgrade
You just do upgrade, you're going to wind up with a Lot of packages "on hold" due to unfulfilled dependencies; dist-upgrade does a complete upgrade, including any needed packages you don't currently have. "upgrade" won't bring in new packages, it only upgrades what you currently have.
[TROLL]Slackware owns all your lame Linux distros! All your Linux are belong to slackware.org![/TROLL]
;)
We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
I usually log in via ssh/xterm and just run a console on the screen. If I run a X server, it's usually Xvnc, so I don't have to work in a noisy machine room.
Desktop/laptop machines are usually RedHat - RH does have a nicer GUI than Debian, but RH seems to be rivalling Microsoft in the amount of unneeded programs that get installed by default.
Wrong. upgrade *will* install new packages. What it won't do is *uninstall* packages to upgrade others. dist-upgrade will sacrifice some packages to upgrade others if it feels it should, which is why it should almost never get used (this case is an exception)
"You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
Actually, it's "autogeddon." Go read your
Ballard! (cf. Crash, Atrocity Exhibition, etc.)
I am to note that the RH installer is far remotely from nice - the ones up to 6.2 WERE nice and FAST to USE.
;)
However, RH has never had a usable package-selection-system, that will in place resolve dependencies and present them to you so you can skip the app if it's depending upon gnome and you don't want those libs at all.
Try making 3-4 partitions and defining mountpoints - you have to go thru several sub-dialogs instead of having one simply selecting mount-point and fs-type.
So RH doesn't have a nice one. Only if you like propaganda spread while you are watching the install
>Oh dear god don't flame me! It's a joke people!
Debian is Joke? OOH what a profanation.
YOU'R DEAD MAN.
Expect visitor from debian religious order with a Flametrower coming at your way.
-Debian user since y2k and loving it. (loving debian, not y2k.)
Emacs is good operating system, but it has one flaw: Its text editor could be better.
you forgot to capitalize it, it's supposed to be "The Obviously Superior Linux Distribution Against Which There Can Be No Other Contenders", and as it is a phrase to be used often, TOSLDAWTCBNOC, for short. Yes, the "TCBN" part is tough.
Misleading titles? Inflammatory blurbs? Keep in mind that Slashdot is a tabloid.
all you ahve to do is make a network boot disk you don't even need a cd
yea dselect sucks but any monkey who can read this can read the instrucions which are clearly printed and once you get the hang of it it's not so bad
people just dont' want to think about having to do anything anymore
to quote Jurassic park, "God help us, we're in the hands of engineers" -- jeff goldbloom
i think i'd rather do it myself, but i'm curious as to what "the average user" is defined as
I've recently left RedHat after 6 years of being a satisfied user. In the last week, I've been looking for my new distro. I considered Gentoo, Slackware, Debian and FreeBSD.
I installed and played with Debian and FreeBSD.
I'd encourage everyone who is looking around to seriously evaluate FreeBSD.
The reason I did not go with Debain is that some of their packages, even on the "unstable" and "testing" branches, are out of data (e.g. the most recent PHP package on any branch is 4.1.x), while PHP itself is up to 4.3.3RC1. Of course, the fact that Yahoo uses mostly FreeBSD, and has recently started using and supporting the development of PHP, probably helps.
But, so far, I get the impression that FreeBSD's packages and ports are much more up to date than Debian's.
I'm posting this from a FreeBSD 5.1 machine, with graphics, sound and networking and KDE 3.1 all nicely configured.
Installing FreeBSD was not harder than installing Debian. In fact, FreeBSD autodetected my network card, while Debian did not. Both FreeBSD and Debian had to be told that I had an "ATI" graphics card.
In addition to my desktop, I have several production servers which I will migrate to FreeBSD at some point.
Of course, if you do switch from any Linux to FreeBSD, you will have a lot to learn - the file system is laid out differently, lots of utilities have different names and some behave differently. But FreeBSD has a single, unified manual, and a single unified installation tool that can also be used later on to install addational packages and ports and to perform additional configuration.
So... check out FreeBSD.
Doesnt really matter what it does and what it dosent do... the proper way to upgrade from stable to unstable is to run apt-get upgrade then apt-get dist-upgrade
Cats: All your base are belong to us.
Captain: Take off every sig !!
Funniest thing I've read all day...
Works great here for me. :) Been using "testing" distribution of debian for quite a while. Both workstations and servers.
;)
If you want the bleeding edge versions of software, well, you really need to keep them to a crash box. Test. Test. And Re-test.
Companies want things that "Just Work"(tm). They usually don't care about it beign the latest and greatest. Just ask MS about getting companies to upgrade.
As such, Debian (if a large commercial shop with brains ever picks it up) stands a great chance of displacing Windows and RedHat.
Now for home users, that is a different story. Most home users want the stable stuff. A small portion though want to get the latest and greatest. These are the same people that want the newest CPU, video card, or whatnot as soon as it comes out. This group is also the most vocal.
This is the reality I have come to see after 15 years of servicing home machines, office machines, servers, and all sorts of other "unclassifiable" machines. Stability is everything. Newest is for a small leet group.
a nig distro
The IRC channel #debian (both on freenode and other IRC networks) is renound for giving abusive comments to people who purely want to resolve a debian issue and banning folks for no reason as well. Once I went into #debian for help when I was starting out with it looking for someone to assist me with an installation issue and they had completely filled up their ban queue. They literally couldn't ban any more people! In fact, some of the most high-ranking Gentoo devs are ex-Debianites and were so horrified by the Debian community's general lack of "niceness" that they dove into Gentoo with full force. Not to knock the distro itself; it works and has lots of support (minus the IRC part) so I recommend it to my friends. But if you start installing Debian, i'd have to say the last place you should go for help is #debian. If you're new to debian, sign up to a mailing list and read through as many FAQs and HOWTOs and docs as you can. And give it time :)
Honestly now, I'm asking for an advice.
/usr and generally little harddrive space on my RedHat 7.0 with lots and lots of "custom upgrades" from rpms of different distributions, alien'ed packages from others, .tgz sources and lots of others, that start getting in way of each other, breaking dependencies, conflicting and generally making my system a mess.
.deb yet, when I want them. Will that cause problems with apt-get, so i.e. I "manually compile" some library and then it complains I don't have it installed when I try to install a .deb which depends on it?
:)
I've been using Linux for some 5 years now, and it was mostly RedHat. Now I feel claustrophobic with my 2G
So, after I found out gcc -stable doesn't work anymore, I decided - it's time for a big upgrade. I'll buy a big harddrive, install a new distribution from scratch, migrate my files from the old drive, customize everything my way (i have a pretty strong idea how my UI should look like and I don't intend to change that. Afterstep, aterm, tcsh and Mozilla, all with very custom settings) - but...
If I change my system, I could migrate to something "more advanced" than RedHat which gets more and more windowsish? And the most "powerful", "serious" non-windows Linux distribution seems to be Debian. But will it work? What problems would I have to face?
Okay. Problems to take into consideration:
1) I like to change stuff. Edit sources, disable options that annoy me, make software less foolproof and more powerful. But I don't like the idea of editing the sources with each upgrade and manually switching upgrade of my custom-made binaries by hand. Will that be a problem?
2) There are some programs I like to have in "bleeding-edge" versions. Especially recent custom-compiled kernel and nightlies of Mozilla. Also others that don't come with
So, my question is - will my system work pretty if I move to Debian and keep doing this? Is there a reason to move, or should I just like before, install RedHat, spend two hours on uninstalling stuff I don't want, install all the extras that don't come "out of the box" and work on it for another 3 years before it becomes such a mess as my system now.
Or maybe I should try yet some else distro? (please, don't suggest Slack nor migrating from Linux to BSD, I don't feel ready for such a big step yet
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I have been working with UNIX and Linux for some time now and I am convinced that the only people raving about Debian are basement hackers that don't have a real job. Debian is a royal pain in the ass. Debian users claim it is better because you have total control, well... if you know what you are doing, you have total control over the other distros too. I am not impressed that a person spent an entire weekend installing Debian or Gentoo. I am not impressed that you use make config instead of make xconfig, I am not impressed that you NEVER use a GUI. Why make things hard for yourself? I can do it the hard way too, but why waste time if there is an easier alternative. I would rather spend my time doing more important things than claiming I am a hacker just because I can use the command line. Give me a fu*king break. BTW, I write software for Linux and it's home-made hacked-together distros like Debian, Slack, and Gentoo that is holding back the Linux community. LSB compliance is a godsent.
If it wasn't for library support, Mandrake would actually be a really good distro. They were the first to include LVM support in the installer, (try to do that with Debian), and although I am not a fan of it, they started using devfs by default before anyone. They were also the first to focus on an easy-to-use installer. I use Redhat personally, because of the library issue. I also have apt-get installed. (Kudos to Debian for that one). Use what works best for you in your environment. I just want to know when it became a bad thing to try to make things easier for users. In the real world, if you spend all day installing one workstation you will be out of a job.
See that handle? I don't get called "clueless" on anything resembling a technical forum for no reason. I've been struggling with linux distro installations for years now, because I support the philosophy behind open source software. Nothing comes close to the ease with which I installed Knoppix. The end result is a sweet Debian system and I never have to look at another RPM file again. Knoppix is finally be the answer to getting linux on the desktop of the average clueless user like me.
What's wrong with you crazy little Linux monkeys with all your, 'my distro is better than your distro and my distro could kick your distro's butt and anyway you smell and you've got no friends.'?
The one true distro is Yellow Dog Linux you bitches !
i used knoppix's hard-drive install..
/etc/fstab file (from cd-boot) into your post-install HDD.
the script was still buggy when i used it. dont know about it now. basically if you're going to do a dual-boot (linux-win) system you HAVE to make a boot disk, but it doesnt write to the MBR properly...
you might need to make a copy of the
pppoe-config is such a useful too that comes with it!
my blog
no xfree 4.3, no mplayer, no lots of other things
Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication
Agreed, my experience of #debian has been very unpleasant. For such an amazing distro, there are some very poorly socialized folks on that channel.
Joke or not, comments like that are exactly why I don't care to even try the distro. I'll stick with Mandrake, Redhat, and slackware, which work great for me, thanks.
BTW, how easy is debian to put on a toshiba libretto? I've found Mandrake to be the only distro that makes this task relatively painless.
A little more arrogance please, I'm not sure you scared off the newbies yet. I hope you don't complain about how Debian isn't more widely used in the personal and business markets.
You must be a genius, and never had to LEARN Debian. You were compiling the kernel while still in your mothers womb.
If you don't know what module you need, you might actually have to get familiar with configuring the kernel, or you might even need to compile your own kernel (I can tell you're trembling in fear already).
Hey dipshit, I'm only in the install program. That means that the OS HASN'T BEEN INSTALLED YET, so Kernel compilation isn't an option at this step. Sure, I could install the os, then figure out the NIC configuration and then compile the kernel, but it's not the type of thing I like to do on a Sunday morning. I'd rather work in the garden or go for a bike ride.
Look, I'm not saying that Debian should be easy to install. Someone higher in this thread said that Debian was easy to install, and I'm disputing that opinion.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
You should never, except in very rare cases, have to recompile your own kernel to get hardware working on Debian. The "stock" Debian kernel comes with zillions of modules for everything under the sun, and there are a few *-modules packages containing extras. There are plenty of reasons to recompile a kernel, but getting your network card working isn't one of them.
The biggest problem is finding out what the hell module to install. It's not exactly as simple as seeing "I have X network card, so I'll install the X module." Many network cards are based on other companies' chipsets, and you have to load the right driver for your chipset. So your card with some random brand name on it might internally be based on the Tulip chipset, in which case you need to load the 'tulip' module. This information isn't often very easy to find, especially if you're someone who doesn't even know that network cards are generally based on a few generic chipsets that get licensed and rebranded (which the majority of computer users don't know).
It's even more fun when you try to tell people it should've been intuitive that they need to load the 'emu10k1' module to get their Soundblaster Live! working.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
insightful
Debian introduces YOU!
Other people have already mentioned testing and unstable, one of which is really what you should be using ('unstable' isn't very unstable, really), so I'll stick to a description of 'stable'. Stable is supposed to be really stable. Not just stable in the sense of "doesn't crash," but stable in the sense of "doesn't get upgraded every other week." It's what you install on a server and leave for a year. You don't want your webserver to be going through upgrades every other week. The only way to really get something that stable is to have fairly old software in it, so that you can ensure that all the major bugs have been worked out and you won't need to update for another six months at least, preferably a year. Of course, some always slip through, which is why there's security.debian.org for the security-critical ones, but for the most part you don't want intermittent upgrades. The upgrades will come all at once with the next release of 'stable', so you can schedule downtime to take the machine out of service and upgrade everything at once.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Try out debian with knoppix. The breadth of things available with apt is stunning, and all the rpm dependency problems seem to go away.
I am a dedicated Debian user and have three servers running it, but I'm afraid this article is useless. It doesn't even discuss X-Windows, which is genuinely difficult under Debian. For new users who are trying to decide on a distribution, it doesn't give other package management solutions a fair shake. We all know that the apt system is superb, but the article makes it sound like RPM doesn't handle dependencies at all! For your average new user, the advantages of apt over RPM don't outweigh the ease of use provided by other distros.
I've already briefly used Debian, but strictly as a server platform, and I got a hint of the feel. It wasn't unpleasant, even though quite different. But I need insight into how the system reacts to an user who behaves in messy way - this is nothing a week or a month of use would tell. RedHat survives this for 3 years. Windows (any version) for a month and then needs reformatting. MS-DOS doesn't care at all until the drive is full or you get a virus, you just occasionally clean up autoexec.bat. AmigaOS may survive 1-2 years of making mess but is very easy to get back in shape. Fascistically administered OpenBSD survived over 5 years without any visible damage now, while one unwise but harmless-looking command on FreeBSD cluttered whole system within hours. (installing vim+ruby installed whole X with desktop managers, libraries, font server and all that junk that should never get to a text-only console system.)
So - how will Debian behave after a year of two of my abuse?
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I've been using Debian for years and my big complaint is that I have a dual P3/866 and my system runs slowly because all the packages are compiled for a 386. They really should split off their x86 distribution into 386 & Pentium. Better yet, they should add the ability for you to select a processor on a line in apt.conf. So, entering Pentium-3 would download a P3 optimized package version and if not available would download the P2, Pentium, and finally default to the 386 version if that was the only one available.
Yes, I tried Gentoo but after the install crashed after a 30 hour compilation, I gave up. Actually, first I swore at the computers, then I gave up.
http://www.donarmstrong.com
Instructions for Installing Debian:
Granted, it's not easy for beginners, but I find it *much* easier than using the old boot floppies.
"And honestly, who among us isn't interested in using the obviously superior Linux Distribution against which there can be no other contenders?"
Man Taco, you have to stop pushing your obnoxious opinion onto slashdot, even in jest. It's not professional, it's not appropriate, it's not....
Oh, wait a minute. You're talking about Debian! Carry on, my apologies for the interruption.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
...given that the question comes up periodically, the folks at IWeThey have created a TWiki page on Why Debian Rocks, answering most command (and many uncommon) questions and myths.
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
That cracked me up! :D
Ok, so I'm a relative linux newbie. Only been using it several years, always with Mandrake (recently installed 9.1). I've now done 2 or 3 debian installs. The first was manual, and the last two were through knoppix.
/boot partition, so I had to re-run it and create a > 2.2 MB / partition instead. /var and /home partition. So I had to do some work to get those working. I did a search on "add hard drive" on debianhelp.org and quickly resolved that issue. /dev/hdb instead of /dev/hda. So I'm stuck using a boot floppy for now. Will figure that out later.
I just finished a knoppix install a few minutes ago. It went like this:
1) install Knoppix 3.2 CD (previously fetched from www.knoppix.net) and reboot.
2) After getting the KDE desktop, press Ctrl-Alt-F2 to get a command prompt, and type knx-hdinstall. Follow the prompts
3) After a reboot, run apt-get update and apt-get upgrade and here I am.
4) Complicating factors
a) I was installing knoppix-debian on a new 100 MB hard drive that I had added to my PC. The install script wouldn't let me have a mini 10 MB
b) the script didn't pick up my intended
c) lilo installation. Even though I run lilo, it doesn't install on my MBR. That's likely because my new knoppix installation is on
Could I have done all this without the experience gained from Mandrake? Maybe, but that experience surely helped.
But anyway knoppix rocks as a way to demo linux to others, or a way to run your favourite OS on a borrowed PC.
cheers
stewart in Calgary
- midtoad
Umwelt schützen, Fahrrad benützen
Okay ... here's my beef with Debian.
... a week later I ask apt-get to install a minor program called "Bar". Apt balks and tells me I can't install "Bar" unless I have "Foo" on my system!
I had no idea how to get the package managers to recognize when I installed something from src.
Here's what usually happened. I needed to install "Foo" -- a massive program with a zillion configuration options. The default Debian installation of it lacked some option I desparately needed. Thus, I compiled & installed it myself from source. THEN
Argggghhhh!
What do others do?
It's a rather nice (still text-based) replacement for dselect, which can also be used as a non-interactive frontend for apt-get and apt-cache.
apt-get install aptitude
I consider myself a less-than-average user. Debian was only my second installation of linux, and the first time I'd used it for more than two years. I had absolutely no problems installing it a couple of months ago, and it has been running perfectly ever since then.
Perhaps I'm the exception to the rule, but I was very satisfied with Debian's installation. Of course, this was on a clean HDD without the bother of repartitioning etc, but that shouldn't be much of a problem.
"Studies have shown that people who eat peanuts live longer than those who do not eat."
# for mplayer
deb http://marillat.free.fr/ unstable main
deb-src http://perso.wanadoo.fr/debian/ unstable main
Yes I run unstable on my desktop, there are some hiccups every now and then. Having run RedHat 5.x before debian I can say it's more stable than a RedHat x.0 release.
I'm not a Debian user, but if you kept RedHat running for 3 years of tinkering, you probably won't have much trouble doing the same with Debian. Of course, too much tinkering can foobar ANY system.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
If nothing else, this article has got people talking about Debian a little bit more, which in my mind is a good thing. I look at it as an opportunity to teach myself a little bit more about my favourite distro (I've a long way to go).
When looking for distros for my Mac LC III I had but one choice - Debian. Now, after running it for several months I would choose no other distro for a server platform, regardless of hardware. Debian has been rock solid and easier to manage than I would've previously thought.
The installer can use work, but I wouldn't go as far as to make it a gui based install - it just needs to be cleaned up. DSELECT is horrific. Hardware detection is also unacceptable (stable). It's great that I can get it running on an m68k platform, but to getting it installed on a current x86 machine with new hardware is a whole other matter. For what it is, Debian is my favourite distro, but it'll never make it to my desktop.
www.brownsauce.org
The largest installation of linux in South America, in a financial group (a bank and an insurance company), runs only in Debian.
And that was because bussiness is the priority.
Check http://www.nuevomundo.com.ve.
Real managers know what they are doing.
Linux: most popular form of Debian
Can you use Knoppix to install to HD and apt get to install mythTV?