"Is this typical behavior of monitoring service companies?" - yes and no. First, I have to ask why do you give the control for an outside company - aren't security and customer monitoring important for the company ? Second ( of course this is Slashdot but.. ), %90+ of replies are offtopic so don't even bother to read the answers ( mine included, slashdot! ). This question belongs to sysadmin Q&A or so. Now the answer ( my opinon ) - fire who ever made the contract with that company ( I know, I know, someone up in foodchain ). If that is not possible read BOFH on http://www.theregister.co.uk/.
Re:We really need a different language
on
Secure Programming
·
· Score: 1
No way a troll !! I'm a Linux and Unix person BUT C and C++ are really a problem. Managed languages ( C# is not on that level yet! ) will prevent most ( not all ) of that king of problems. C could be fine but the education of safe coding is not really part of the normal learning today. Just an idea from an old assembler coder.
Unfortynately - you are correct, period ! Just dont blame MS too much - they are bad but... As an example we do develope for public safety and have absolytely no guidlines or methods for safe software. Our management thinks that application level encryption is enough and safe - go figure. Makes me wonder - after 30 years in network security.. have a nice day.
Don't feel bad - it has happened before and it will happen in other nations too. It's called history. It will even in 70-100 years. Of course you can't see that but that's life. We really could use "sad" as rating - more informative than "interesting" sometimes.
I don't use browsers ( something to do with the peeping Tom ?? ) - so this patent has nothing to do with whatever software I use to scan Internet - Opera, Mozilla or even that MS software to read Internet sites ?? have a nice day. p.s. I write Internet scanners ( make your own name ), not browsers as the patent says..
Reminds me of the old times.. How is your system? Who reports what? I just can't resist this. How many attacked your CICS, IMS, (Tandem) Pathway systems - how? ( inside jobs don't count - there is nothing you can do as long as the stupid management system is in place ) I'm still amazed that anybody would allow the world to attack their systems. But then, I'm fighting the management to open all the access to out servers - go ask ?? have a nice day.
Recent blackout ?? Remember 9/11 - Sonet networks switched in seconds - when did the pure IP networks come back ? IP is just a protocol, sometimes nice and sometimes not so. Anyway - IP over something to trust is not bad, just a pain (IMHO). A notice - trying to build wireless IP switching, roaming and all, what can you do? have a nice day.
SCO can have any licenses they want - the code is the code. Please, show me any code ( any IP ) anywhere that was stolen ( whatever that means - cut and paste excluded ). All these talks about support for this or that - please, people, study a little of computer history, published ideas and documents. When I started at end of 60's I was educated ( what SCO now says they own ) of multiprocessors and shared memory, virtual memory, tasking ( more than any Unix today has ), pipelines. etc. So - that's the way I was coding ( stealing SCO property in 70's?? ), so, again, show me something new. Just as an example IBM VM, both hardware and sofware support - have you ever seen that, you know how old it is ? Or maybe how Univac did EXEC8 - actually Burroughs and Honeywell were't too bad either - of course you remember the Algol based operating system in Burroughs, pure (almost) object oriented - what's new, definitely not the ideas. You should, might give some (new) ideas. have a nice day.
#define malloc(X) getmain(X) - seriously, what are they smoking ?? xfs - is just an ( nice ) implementation of journaling file systems ( existed long before there was any Unix ) made by SGI, are they trying to own all the journaling file systems or are they claiming the name?? Journaling file systems existed long before Unix both in theory and in implementation. Malloc is just a name for a memory allocation procedure/macro - can/has been implemented n ways, even I did those before you can say Unix existed.
"Because when you really learn about all the options, benefits, and limitations, there are suprisingly few situations where it's worth it."
Correct - but those "suprisingly few situations" are amazingly many - the world is big. And for 7x24 there is only one alternative, Tandem (IMHO). Have a nice day.
Sorry - no for the first sentence but I fully agree the second. If you are talking of one ( business ) process cpu power, then yes/maybe but the throughput of processed data - no way even to compare. Most corporations have more than one business process to run(IMHO). Besides - the mainframes are not that slow otherwise, a hand coded algorithm can be amazingly fast, remember the hw architecture. It's not always the clock speed, maybe it's pipelines, parallelism, channels or vectors that make the difference. Any decent systems programmer can show you how if you ask nicely - have a nice day.
Good, bad and decent experiences but what is common? I didn't see one comment where the installation has put any money to hire and/or educate good support. Compared to the number of people needed to support these server farms - it's always less expensive have some good people around for mainframe and (IMHO) Linux. Sorry - I'm old, 30+ years with VM(yes), but from MFT/MVT/DOS to MVS and Unix, Tandem, Windows, and the only thing that will make a difference is one/two good knowledgeable persons (IMHO). I love both mainframes and smaller systems - different tasks ( anybody remember what a real task is - hint, stll none in Unix/Windows/Tandem ). Mainframes ( and Linux running in VM ) can move a amazing amount of data - use your Intel/AMD/PPC systems in grid/cluster/whatever to process it - remember, vector processors, etc. are even much faster than any Intel or AMD. Also - for 7x24 there are no alternatives ( well, maybe Tandem ), these things run years and years. And the myth how difficult they are to manage or write applications - is a myth. Any decent systems programmer can tell you how if you ask nicely. have a nice day.
fast comment - it seems that you understand the problem better than XXX number of network administrators / managers. The job of network management is to keep the network running PERIOD. This same problem exists in corporate networks also. The network people are there to serve, they don't "own" the network, University, college, corporation, whatever owns it and their job is to keep it running - if they can't then ????. Sorry to network people but I have had my share of incompetent network management. It's not easy job but there are ways and means. I should know - 30+ years developing, creating, installing ( small to worldwide ) network connections & security.. have a nice day.
Hi - one opinion. I work on software in a software company ( one of many over 30 years ) - it's not people, it the management. They mostly are about age Windows and scared of anything else, be it IBM MVS/VM, Unix or Linux - all they know is Windows so that's what they prefer. Unfortunatelly it is in human nature to resist anything that wasn't force fed. How many open minds do you know - have a nice day.
I usually tolerate some spam or virus e-mail but this starts to be annoying. And, please, don't bounce !! The mails are not coming from address that is in header reply - it's FAKE !! I'm getting ( only some but.. ) bounces. It's not too difficult ( look all the mail trace ) to see that the sender is not the domain that is in header, please !! AND, yes, they are coming from MS servers - haven't yet seen any other. Doesn't prove anything but.. have a nice day.
early 70's ( of course no orders from PCs - didn't exist that time but ). Working in an insurance company, our customers, banks, city/county fleet managers, shipping companies, etc.. were able to order print jobs and were billed eletronically based on information we had of them. Small jobs could even be routed to their RJE printers - slow, or sent on tape. Later on at start of 80's I had mainframe customers selling print services in their IBM 3800 laser printers ( 215 pages/min ). It's impressive to see 4-5 of those printing almost 24h / day. Almost all the orders came over network ( BSC, x.25 or SNA still at that time ) and were billed on their bank by paper type, pre-processing requirements, layout requirements and post-processing, etc.. All the customer information was, of course, in mainframe databases. The real challenge was the world wide requirements in a bank to get the print to follow the user independent of the printing subsystem, IBM, Tandem, Honywell, Prime, Dec, whatever and independent of the protocol, BSC, X.25, SNA and later IP. To authenticate a user and printer in foreign country can be interesting and is not possible without very detailed information of user, network(-s), routes, equipment, etc. and of course of the paying organization or department for inside jobs.
?Why do you keep putting C in quotes? Was it not really C?"
Stupid habits ? or maybe C is not just C.. Currently having fun ( not! ) to move ( re-write ) a kind of large system to Win2000 / Visual C++. Orginally we developed it in AIX, later moved it to Solaris, SUN/OS and HP/UX. Learned a lot more of different C compilers. After having years fun with original SUN C, Lattice C, Turbo C, Tandem C, GCC - each with own niceties. And of course I got Windows conversion and my friend got the conversion to Linux. Fun part - I can replace parts of it in Delphi, he is not allowed to use Kylix. Have a nice day.
Hi - I love your answer !! Mod this up, please ! Yes - it slows anybody but at least for me - the problem I have had / I still have is that the managers / customers have an idea that something has to be done in a specific language or OS, period. When I was modifying the TSO/APL ( 370 ) to fit the requirements - guess what, there was always a way to make it work. Like it - no, but learn of it, yes. MUMPS is beatiful language in it's own, as are many others, but don't even think to present it to "nerds". Personally - I love IBM BAL and Tandem (HP) TAL - I have all the power you can get and very powerfull compilers to support it. Downside - not very many people to support it. Actually - I write as much as I can in Delphi today - at least I can write for several systems in one language, Windows, Linux, AS/400 - where ever Kylix runs. Also, the configuration of system is usually done in Prolog.. have a nice day.
Hi - true !! But over time I have changed systems from MUMPS to Cobol ( can you believe that ? ), Fortan to "C", IMS/DB to MS SQL/DP2, RGP to APL to PL/I to "C", Pascal to C#, TAL to "C", LISP to "C", Windows to Unix, Unix to Windows, whatever.. As long as the system was well documented ( as this is ) there are no big problems, just ( a little ) work to do. IMHO actually I would like to see some VB functions implemented in other languages. have a nice day.
Can we, please, stop arguing the language anything is done. Language is not important - I have created high performance systems in Algol, Fortran, MUMPS, assembler ( several ), VB, Pascal, REXX, PL/I, "C", C++, APL, you name it.. Even Tcl/Tk, Python, Java, Cobol - who cares.. The important thing is that someone is giving a system for us ! Don't complain that and have a nice day..
Correct ! Besides of that - for example SMP ( SMP code ), guess when the work on attached / multiple processor work started in IBM. I used to work on AP/MP code in 70's AFTER IBM published that - looks a lot like what I see today - Unix or not, operating system doesn't really change how to do things. I should know - pick an operating systems ( OS style, excluding some but not Unix ) - I have done it and how it is done doesn't change ( depend of hardware ), it's basics. I really don't think that anybody got that part earlier ( but, of course, I may be wrong ). And, please, derivative code. The amount of code I have written over 30 years - I have seen a lot of code later that is just like mine - owned by what ever company I used to work at that time. Should I inform them that somebody is stealing their IP ?? have a nice day.
We should make a systems programmer requiremets list of these : JES exits ( yes, both 2 and 3 ), SVCs (yes), TSO exits (yes), channel programs for dasd/tape/?? (yes,yes,yes), how many APARs ?, sysgens OS??? (MFT,MVT,VM,VS1,SVS,MVS, version? ), VTAM,NCP,PEP configurations, IMS(DB/DC) configurations/coding (didn't forget to sysgen the cleanup??), CICS configurations/coding, VSAM environment ?, and of course as you said SMP, WLM, SMF, RMF, RACF, installation backup / recovery plans and testing?, forecasting ( BEST/1, other ), tuning ?, operator procedures ?,.... - and of course, how many lunches and dinners from IBM salesmen ?? Number of SHARE / GUIDE trips ? - I really miss the good old days !! Back to PC !
Started -71 on IBM mainframes, BAL, Cobol, PL/I - currently writing configuration engine using Python & Prolog to configure both Java (J2ME) application on Palm and C/C#/Delphi applications in Windows for wireless systems BUT the only thing changed from 70's is the languages and comm. protocols, objects, methods, etc.. still the same. OK - another differences, (IBM) documentation was better long time ago, training was 6-8 weeks/year ( on system programmer level ) and IMHO the development environments were better (not the GUIs) We used source/object management ( even at the time of puch cards ) with all the benefits of common code and routines, etc. Haven't seen that a long time. Anyway - to manage a mainfram is not much different - only, the companies that use those take application/environment changes very seriously - the systems I used to play/support were all running 24x7 so resource / environment / application / OS planning and testing had always very high priority AND all changes had to go through operations (i.e. system programming fun/pain at the same time). Nice thing today is that I don't have to write on CC level any more and no more home grown SVCs ! So - maybe we old programmers can learn new (old) tricks but how to teach those to the younger generation ?
Well said ! Living in US ( not a citizen ) I often wonder the comments. Great that they can be freely given ( as in many other countries ) but at least I didn't see anything wrong Bush elected. I don't like him and would never have selected him but then that's a moot point - I can't vote here. As for Bush - he does some things well, some not so. So - how is he different than any other in politics ? I honestly see no difference - my age 56 and seen a couple countries all over the world so please - tell me. have a nice day.
You may or may not like this type of music http://www.gentlemanj.com/ but there are thousands of free music sites around - I actually have round a thousand of CDs, all legal and most copied to mp3, BUT I really don't like to pay extra to people who only collect the money - I like to pay creators.
Slashdot Mirror
"Is this typical behavior of monitoring service companies?" - yes and no. First, I have to ask why do you give the control for an outside company - aren't security and customer monitoring important for the company ? Second ( of course this is Slashdot but.. ), %90+ of replies are offtopic so don't even bother to read the answers ( mine included, slashdot! ). This question belongs to sysadmin Q&A or so. Now the answer ( my opinon ) - fire who ever made the contract with that company ( I know, I know, someone up in foodchain ). If that is not possible read BOFH on http://www.theregister.co.uk/.
No way a troll !! I'm a Linux and Unix person BUT C and C++ are really a problem. Managed languages ( C# is not on that level yet! ) will prevent most ( not all ) of that king of problems. C could be fine but the education of safe coding is not really part of the normal learning today. Just an idea from an old assembler coder.
Unfortynately - you are correct, period ! Just dont blame MS too much - they are bad but... As an example we do develope for public safety and have absolytely no guidlines or methods for safe software. Our management thinks that application level encryption is enough and safe - go figure. Makes me wonder - after 30 years in network security.. have a nice day.
Don't feel bad - it has happened before and it will happen in other nations too. It's called history. It will even in 70-100 years. Of course you can't see that but that's life. We really could use "sad" as rating - more informative than "interesting" sometimes.
I don't use browsers ( something to do with the peeping Tom ?? ) - so this patent has nothing to do with whatever software I use to scan Internet - Opera, Mozilla or even that MS software to read Internet sites ?? have a nice day.
p.s. I write Internet scanners ( make your own name ), not browsers as the patent says..
Reminds me of the old times.. How is your system? Who reports what? I just can't resist this. How many attacked your CICS, IMS, (Tandem) Pathway systems - how? ( inside jobs don't count - there is nothing you can do as long as the stupid management system is in place ) I'm still amazed that anybody would allow the world to attack their systems. But then, I'm fighting the management to open all the access to out servers - go ask ?? have a nice day.
Recent blackout ?? Remember 9/11 - Sonet networks switched in seconds - when did the pure IP networks come back ? IP is just a protocol, sometimes nice and sometimes not so. Anyway - IP over something to trust is not bad, just a pain (IMHO). A notice - trying to build wireless IP switching, roaming and all, what can you do? have a nice day.
SCO can have any licenses they want - the code is the code. Please, show me any code ( any IP ) anywhere that was stolen ( whatever that means - cut and paste excluded ). All these talks about support for this or that - please, people, study a little of computer history, published ideas and documents. When I started at end of 60's I was educated ( what SCO now says they own ) of multiprocessors and shared memory, virtual memory, tasking ( more than any Unix today has ), pipelines. etc. So - that's the way I was coding ( stealing SCO property in 70's?? ), so, again, show me something new. Just as an example IBM VM, both hardware and sofware support - have you ever seen that, you know how old it is ? Or maybe how Univac did EXEC8 - actually Burroughs and Honeywell were't too bad either - of course you remember the Algol based operating system in Burroughs, pure (almost) object oriented - what's new, definitely not the ideas. You should, might give some (new) ideas. have a nice day.
#define malloc(X) getmain(X) - seriously, what are they smoking ?? xfs - is just an ( nice ) implementation of journaling file systems ( existed long before there was any Unix ) made by SGI, are they trying to own all the journaling file systems or are they claiming the name?? Journaling file systems existed long before Unix both in theory and in implementation. Malloc is just a name for a memory allocation procedure/macro - can/has been implemented n ways, even I did those before you can say Unix existed.
"Because when you really learn about all the options, benefits, and limitations, there are suprisingly few situations where it's worth it."
Correct - but those "suprisingly few situations" are amazingly many - the world is big. And for 7x24 there is only one alternative, Tandem (IMHO). Have a nice day.
Sorry - no for the first sentence but I fully agree the second. If you are talking of one ( business ) process cpu power, then yes/maybe but the throughput of processed data - no way even to compare. Most corporations have more than one business process to run(IMHO). Besides - the mainframes are not that slow otherwise, a hand coded algorithm can be amazingly fast, remember the hw architecture. It's not always the clock speed, maybe it's pipelines, parallelism, channels or vectors that make the difference. Any decent systems programmer can show you how if you ask nicely - have a nice day.
Good, bad and decent experiences but what is common? I didn't see one comment where the installation has put any money to hire and/or educate good support. Compared to the number of people needed to support these server farms - it's always less expensive have some good people around for mainframe and (IMHO) Linux. Sorry - I'm old, 30+ years with VM(yes), but from MFT/MVT/DOS to MVS and Unix, Tandem, Windows, and the only thing that will make a difference is one/two good knowledgeable persons (IMHO). I love both mainframes and smaller systems - different tasks ( anybody remember what a real task is - hint, stll none in Unix/Windows/Tandem ). Mainframes ( and Linux running in VM ) can move a amazing amount of data - use your Intel/AMD/PPC systems in grid/cluster/whatever to process it - remember, vector processors, etc. are even much faster than any Intel or AMD. Also - for 7x24 there are no alternatives ( well, maybe Tandem ), these things run years and years. And the myth how difficult they are to manage or write applications - is a myth. Any decent systems programmer can tell you how if you ask nicely. have a nice day.
fast comment - it seems that you understand the problem better than XXX number of network administrators / managers. The job of network management is to keep the network running PERIOD. This same problem exists in corporate networks also. The network people are there to serve, they don't "own" the network, University, college, corporation, whatever owns it and their job is to keep it running - if they can't then ????. Sorry to network people but I have had my share of incompetent network management. It's not easy job but there are ways and means. I should know - 30+ years developing, creating, installing ( small to worldwide ) network connections & security.. have a nice day.
Hi - one opinion. I work on software in a software company ( one of many over 30 years ) - it's not people, it the management. They mostly are about age Windows and scared of anything else, be it IBM MVS/VM, Unix or Linux - all they know is Windows so that's what they prefer. Unfortunatelly it is in human nature to resist anything that wasn't force fed. How many open minds do you know - have a nice day.
I usually tolerate some spam or virus e-mail but this starts to be annoying. And, please, don't bounce !! The mails are not coming from address that is in header reply - it's FAKE !! I'm getting ( only some but.. ) bounces. It's not too difficult ( look all the mail trace ) to see that the sender is not the domain that is in header, please !! AND, yes, they are coming from MS servers - haven't yet seen any other. Doesn't prove anything but.. have a nice day.
early 70's ( of course no orders from PCs - didn't exist that time but ). Working in an insurance company, our customers, banks, city/county fleet managers, shipping companies, etc.. were able to order print jobs and were billed eletronically based on information we had of them. Small jobs could even be routed to their RJE printers - slow, or sent on tape. Later on at start of 80's I had mainframe customers selling print services in their IBM 3800 laser printers ( 215 pages/min ). It's impressive to see 4-5 of those printing almost 24h / day. Almost all the orders came over network ( BSC, x.25 or SNA still at that time ) and were billed on their bank by paper type, pre-processing requirements, layout requirements and post-processing, etc.. All the customer information was, of course, in mainframe databases. The real challenge was the world wide requirements in a bank to get the print to follow the user independent of the printing subsystem, IBM, Tandem, Honywell, Prime, Dec, whatever and independent of the protocol, BSC, X.25, SNA and later IP. To authenticate a user and printer in foreign country can be interesting and is not possible without very detailed information of user, network(-s), routes, equipment, etc. and of course of the paying organization or department for inside jobs.
?Why do you keep putting C in quotes? Was it not really C?"
Stupid habits ? or maybe C is not just C.. Currently having fun ( not! ) to move ( re-write ) a kind of large system to Win2000 / Visual C++. Orginally we developed it in AIX, later moved it to Solaris, SUN/OS and HP/UX. Learned a lot more of different C compilers. After having years fun with original SUN C, Lattice C, Turbo C, Tandem C, GCC - each with own niceties. And of course I got Windows conversion and my friend got the conversion to Linux. Fun part - I can replace parts of it in Delphi, he is not allowed to use Kylix. Have a nice day.
Hi - I love your answer !! Mod this up, please ! Yes - it slows anybody but at least for me - the problem I have had / I still have is that the managers / customers have an idea that something has to be done in a specific language or OS, period. When I was modifying the TSO/APL ( 370 ) to fit the requirements - guess what, there was always a way to make it work. Like it - no, but learn of it, yes. MUMPS is beatiful language in it's own, as are many others, but don't even think to present it to "nerds". Personally - I love IBM BAL and Tandem (HP) TAL - I have all the power you can get and very powerfull compilers to support it. Downside - not very many people to support it. Actually - I write as much as I can in Delphi today - at least I can write for several systems in one language, Windows, Linux, AS/400 - where ever Kylix runs. Also, the configuration of system is usually done in Prolog.. have a nice day.
Hi - true !! But over time I have changed systems from MUMPS to Cobol ( can you believe that ? ), Fortan to "C", IMS/DB to MS SQL/DP2, RGP to APL to PL/I to "C", Pascal to C#, TAL to "C", LISP to "C", Windows to Unix, Unix to Windows, whatever.. As long as the system was well documented ( as this is ) there are no big problems, just ( a little ) work to do. IMHO actually I would like to see some VB functions implemented in other languages. have a nice day.
Can we, please, stop arguing the language anything is done. Language is not important - I have created high performance systems in Algol, Fortran, MUMPS, assembler ( several ), VB, Pascal, REXX, PL/I, "C", C++, APL, you name it.. Even Tcl/Tk, Python, Java, Cobol - who cares.. The important thing is that someone is giving a system for us ! Don't complain that and have a nice day..
Correct ! Besides of that - for example SMP ( SMP code ), guess when the work on attached / multiple processor work started in IBM. I used to work on AP/MP code in 70's AFTER IBM published that - looks a lot like what I see today - Unix or not, operating system doesn't really change how to do things. I should know - pick an operating systems ( OS style, excluding some but not Unix ) - I have done it and how it is done doesn't change ( depend of hardware ), it's basics. I really don't think that anybody got that part earlier ( but, of course, I may be wrong ). And, please, derivative code. The amount of code I have written over 30 years - I have seen a lot of code later that is just like mine - owned by what ever company I used to work at that time. Should I inform them that somebody is stealing their IP ?? have a nice day.
We should make a systems programmer requiremets list of these : JES exits ( yes, both 2 and 3 ), SVCs (yes), TSO exits (yes), channel programs for dasd/tape/?? (yes,yes,yes), how many APARs ?, sysgens OS??? (MFT,MVT,VM,VS1,SVS,MVS, version? ), VTAM,NCP,PEP configurations, IMS(DB/DC) configurations/coding (didn't forget to sysgen the cleanup??), CICS configurations/coding, VSAM environment ?, and of course as you said SMP, WLM, SMF, RMF, RACF, installation backup / recovery plans and testing?, forecasting ( BEST/1, other ), tuning ?, operator procedures ?, .... - and of course, how many lunches and dinners from IBM salesmen ?? Number of SHARE / GUIDE trips ? - I really miss the good old days !! Back to PC !
Started -71 on IBM mainframes, BAL, Cobol, PL/I - currently writing configuration engine using Python & Prolog to configure both Java (J2ME) application on Palm and C/C#/Delphi applications in Windows for wireless systems BUT the only thing changed from 70's is the languages and comm. protocols, objects, methods, etc.. still the same. OK - another differences, (IBM) documentation was better long time ago, training was 6-8 weeks/year ( on system programmer level ) and IMHO the development environments were better (not the GUIs) We used source/object management ( even at the time of puch cards ) with all the benefits of common code and routines, etc. Haven't seen that a long time. Anyway - to manage a mainfram is not much different - only, the companies that use those take application/environment changes very seriously - the systems I used to play/support were all running 24x7 so resource / environment / application / OS planning and testing had always very high priority AND all changes had to go through operations (i.e. system programming fun/pain at the same time). Nice thing today is that I don't have to write on CC level any more and no more home grown SVCs ! So - maybe we old programmers can learn new (old) tricks but how to teach those to the younger generation ?
Well said ! Living in US ( not a citizen ) I often wonder the comments. Great that they can be freely given ( as in many other countries ) but at least I didn't see anything wrong Bush elected. I don't like him and would never have selected him but then that's a moot point - I can't vote here. As for Bush - he does some things well, some not so. So - how is he different than any other in politics ? I honestly see no difference - my age 56 and seen a couple countries all over the world so please - tell me. have a nice day.
You may or may not like this type of music http://www.gentlemanj.com/ but there are thousands of free music sites around - I actually have round a thousand of CDs, all legal and most copied to mp3, BUT I really don't like to pay extra to people who only collect the money - I like to pay creators.