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Justice Department Proud of Patriot Act Slippery Slope
frank_adrian314159 writes "Yahoo News is reporting that the DoJ has been using its increased powers under the US PATRIOT Act to pursue common criminals. DoJ Officials have been holding seminars on how to use increased wiretap powers against (non-terrorist) money launderers and drug dealers. One example in the article is the guy running a meth lab who's now up for a life sentence for 'manufacturing chemical weapons' instead of the much shorter sentence he would have been facing under the current drug laws. Wonderful, huh? Who didn't see this coming? Of course, you're a law-abiding citizen, so you have nothing to worry about, right?" Patriot Act II will allow any Federal agent to demand records from anyone who interacts with you, with no judicial oversight whatsoever.
...Federal Government Overlords....
Oh wait, we've had them since 1776. DOH!!
but 1984 has finally caught up to us. Big Brother is watching you, and the people who you come in contanct with.
...and take it into the voting booth in November, 2004.
This is my post. There are many others like it. If you don't like what you read here, go try one of the others.
I hear it's nice this time of year.
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and contains toxic chemicals.
If I chug enough gasoline, I'll die. Let's put the Oil companies away for 12 years to life! For that matter, drink some bad water from a lake and you'll die. Put the Big Bang away for 12 - life!
On Apple Input Peripherals: They're okay, I guess, but I was really hoping for a one-key keyboard and a 109-button mouse
When did a campaign of "Compassionate Conservatism" become synonomous with "slightly to the left of Darth Vader"?
There is nothing wrong with being gay. It's getting caught where the trouble lies.
After all their definition of a chemical weapon of mass destruction is:
Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and contains toxic chemicals.
So why don't they go after the tobacco companies since they're manufacturing substances that meet these criteria? Oh wait, the government gets taxes from the sales of these products, nevermind.
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
If a chemical weapon is "any substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" then where does that leave manufacturers of (for example) petrol. That can cause death or serious injury, but I don't see the government throwing them down for life...
Yay for double standards o_0
I, for one, welcome our new Republican over--
Wait a second. No I don't.
You never know who will get one.
Meth Industry Association of America issues a statement accusing government of trying to infringe on free market economy and healthy industry that meth production is. Stay tuned.
John Ashcroft has been touring to gain popular support for Patriot Act II. Nevermind that his speeches are invitation-only, to "safe" crowds of police officers in order to avoid inevitable protests... is anyone else creeped out that the executive branch has so many characters making such public efforts at lawmaking rather than just the execution of law?
Isn't that what people used to say. Well guess what. It is happening here. Right now before your very eyes. Remember that when 2004 rolls around and be sure to thank Dumbya and his minions by sending them packing.
1984 was never meant to be a how-to guide.
When all else fails, run.
Damn straight
It is ok bacause Homeland Sercurity buying all Microsoft the worm and virus writers will be caught in the world largest honeypot. All those nasity agents will only be running around trying to find ways to keep their equipment running.
I want to see some conservatives comment now on how Republicans are "conservative". Republicans want even bigger government than the Democrats. I am tired of this, everytime I read the news paper or watch TV George Bush is asking for more money for stupid shit. Hundreds of billions for building schools and hospitals in Iraq, Billions for Africa, Billions for this and Billions for that as if we have money to just throw into the fire, and then as our so called homeland security, we now spy on each other and use the patriot act as some kinda control against the people?!
I cant understand the logic of these Republicans, they seem to be far from conservative, Republicans seem to want Global Government which scares the shit out of me far more than the big US gov democrats.
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Excellent troll.
Talk about a role-reversal. I thought republigoons wants LESS government intrusion. This whole "terrorism-as-an-excuse" crap has simply got to stop. Soon we'll get people with wiretaps on their phones and bugs on their cars after they get caught speeding. Oooh, he was speeding, he must be in a hurry to get to the bomb-laden-Uhaul-truck. Gimme a fricken break. At least in facist governments you KNOW you're being monitored all the time as a general rule. Personally I will NOT be surprised when Patriot III comes out giving the current president powers to halt democratic elections. Finally, the new Rome. One corrupt dictator!
It seems odd to me that in one of the great democracies, individual freedoms and rights are becoming more and more compromised. The real concern for me is that American culture permeates just about every Western culture. Does this mean that the American legislative way will soon arrive here in New Zealand ? I hope not - but it's interesting to see that Australia seems to be using the USA as a role model recently.
Never, ever lose a file again. Ever.
Ironically, much the same story has been relevant to the UK this week. At a high-profile arms fair (ahem... sorry... trade conference) where there were extensive (non-violent) protests, police used our recently-enacted anti-terrorism legislation under dubious circumstances. Our Home Secretary has demanded a full inquiry from the police -- interesting, since he's supposed to authorise any use of it in the first place. Apparently that may have happened on a technicality, because there was some sort of generic authorisation because of the anniversary of September 11. A slippery slope indeed...
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Cant you see that the gov creates the laws and now h as the power to not only label anyone a criminal for any reason, but now they have the tools to rule over us and we can do nothing about it.
I'm all for the war against terrorism but what exactly are we fighting for if our solution for terrorism is to bring the Taliban and Nazi ideas over to the US?
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Finally the US government has unveiled some dangerous chemical WMD.
Too bad it's produced in the US, by a US citizen and for recreational purposes.
Go USA.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
Unfortunately, many people didn't see this coming, and I just can't understand why. History has repeatedly shown that when any authority is given powers it WILL use them whenever it feels, and it WILL eventually abuse them.
It's similar to the recent case un England where demonstrators at an arms fair were detained using anti-terrorism measures.
I find it ironic that people demonstrating against the sale of weapons, some of the same kind used by terrorists are then arrested using laws designed to reduce terrorism.
-- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz
Oh jesus christ..it's people like this that scare the bejesus out of me, even more so than the Patriot Act itself. Prosecutors are using the law, that's not the issue. The issue is that the law is fucked up! Expanded wire tappings not requiring a judge's signature..the ability for prosecutors to listen in on attorney-client conversations without their knowledge, the list goes on. And, for what it's worth, I sure as hell don't think someone cooking up crystal meth should be charged as a god-damn terrorist. I much prefer to sit back and allow darwinism to purge the idiots from our midst.
Don't be a zoa (zealous overbearing ass), be happy!
I'd like to think that living in Canada will put me far enough out of the way that I'm not sucked in when America flushes itself down the toilet, but that might be too optimistic.
Who didn't see this coming? Of course, you're a law-abiding citizen, so you have nothing to worry about, right?
I'm not afraid of FBI agent storming my place, because I'm not only paranoid, I'm also schizophrenic, which means I outnumber my ennemies 2 to 1!
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
If the federal government persists in the behaviours that it has been engaging in lately, all that they'll do is force people who care to either leave the U.S., or to engage in rebellion.
I hope that the courts start thinking with some sanity, and dismiss entirely charges against people, despite their illegal acts, because of the treatment that they're receiving at the hands of law enforcement officials in charges and the like. If someone is doing something illegal, like manufacturing an illicit substance whose creation process is relatively dangerous, they deserve the trouble that they'd get, but they do no deserve to be branded "Terrorist". The DA or police who came up with the charge deserve to be sued for libel.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
I heard about how the Meth labs were going to be prosecuted as "chemical weapons/wmd's" based on the (very limited) damage their polution causes. It seems to me that those coal fired power plants that Bush and Chainy, with the help of Christie and gutting of the clean air act, enable to polute my air in nearby air also could be an act of chemical terrorism. Please, lets send the marines there and shut them down, jailing their operators for life! Of course that particular part of the act is so poorly worded that potentially even operating a moter vehicle could also be construed as a terrorist act!
Meh. They dont "want" to crash society, they just want to make a profit, and own a few hoes. If society stands in the way, oh well.
Serriously. We already had laws to deal with these people. The Patriot Act is simply the DMCA of the Dpt. of Justice, the FBI, the CIA, and the NSA.
Both are mostly absolving the courts of responsibility, and putting the power in the hands of the "crime fighters". Can you see the other similarites between the two?
Dredd: "I AM THE Law!"
My only wonder is when they're going to start building a penal colony in Aspen.
Heck, even Ebay (via PayPal) has been charged with violating the Patriot Act. Are we only seeing the beginnings of this kind of abuse, or will someone with deep pockets step up to the plate?
Also of note, here is the full write-up of the wire tap law from Cornell
final, we are all F ed!
Can I sue Mc Donalds for producing and selling WMDs now?
cat=terrorism -- its nice that theres a dedicated category for terrorism news articles.
:\
terrorism
n : the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments.
Crack labs are violent?
OK, you want to see the drug dealers convicted, that's fair enough. They are not, however, terrorists and should not be classed as such. Drug laws exist to combat dealers, and if they aren't harsh enough then they can be changed. Overly broad terrorism laws aren't the answer.
Also, consider the fact that you, a law abiding citizen could go to prison for 12 to life next time you cook dinner. People can choke to death on food you know, and that makes it a chemical weapon under this act. Still think it's just now that you're a terrorist?
Welcome our new corrupt dictators. With knives, poisons, traps, guns, hellfire, and damnation.
Darwinism doesn't work if the strong are too weak willed to fight back because it may offend or bother the ACLU. You want surviaval of the fitest and the week and dumb to be protected.
You sir scare the bejesus out of me. The idea of prosecutors using your logic keeps me up nights.
We've got a drug house across the street from us. The cops won't do a thing because we don't have enough usable evidence or something like that. With all these shortcuts and such we should be able to get these guys a good old life sentece in no time. I'm liking this more already.
-Tim Louden
To: Ken@WearableTech (A.K.A. O'Brien)
/. community thinks of me I strongly stand by my views.
It is people like you who make America such a terrible country. I could go on and on explaining, but you're so obviously blinded by your country that you would never understand/listen.
You may consider this trolling, but no matter what the
This is the point where people spew out "If you don't like it, leave!" in a standing tall, patriotic stance.
I do believe this is the final straw for myself. I will be permanently leaving the country as soon as financially possible.
It would incredibly interesting if the emmigration rate soared in the next few years from the US. I guess we'll wait and see.
I just wasted your mod points! HA!
I don't want to hear the argument "well if you're not doing anything wrong you havwe nothing to worry about". I am an "upstanding" citizen, and am still freaked out about the government's broadening powers. These laws coming through is a blueprint for a police state. I for one don't trust any state with this much power.
Just an observation, not a value judgement. -Me
...is there any substance not lethal in high enough doses? Btw, the "contains toxic chemicals" part merely restates the first part - the very definition of toxic is what is harmful to people.
I imagine even water is outlawed under this law, after all you can drown from it. Polluted water at least. Nevermind air, which is definately lethal if injected into the bloodstream.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I saw him on FoxNews with Tony Snow last week (safe haven for him, no tough questions). He was saying how little the patriot act does and how "we still need judges to sign all these warrants, it's not like we do anything on a whim." His basic spiel was "oh come on, it's nothing! Really, we would never use it in a bad way, trust us! We love jesus! Praise!"
We can only hope 4 year terms run in the bush family. And I voted for dubya.
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
One example in the article is the guy running a meth lab who's now up for a life sentence for 'manufacturing chemical weapons'
DMCA, Patriot Act, War on Drugs, Total Information Awareness, Preemptive Strikes... and the sanctioned abuse of bad laws. The USA is really becoming a disgusting offense to justice.
Right, there are enough things that can be solved with a decent dose of darwinism, among those drug-addicts. Those willing can be saved. But it's a completely different story if the laws allow those in charge to do just about anything they want. This situation is what all those anti-utopian novels were about, that's what the people of soviet russia were enduring. Just that in the US there are way too many people who consider those laws against terrorism nice. Sure, it's nice for right-wings who detest anything that smells even the least bit leftish, like environmentalists or the likes
The point of a democracy is that the left wing nerd's opinions on government are just as important as a cop's, Dick Gephadt's, yours, or the suspected meth dealer next door's. If you're looking for a big daddy Ashcroft to sort it out for you so you can concentrate on your code, there are plenty of countries with constitutions that support that.
Who said they are terrorist. RTFA.
The majority rule vote did not elect George W Bush, he does not represent the majority of the people in this country because he did not win the majority of the vote you stupid idiot.
When I talk about government I know exactly what I'm talking about, we arent a democracy we are a republic and who you vote for has nothing to do with government.
You may be able to influence congress but thats about it, and you can only influence congress if you have cash to do so and of course you dont.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Wait. Let me get this straight. You want me to be outraged because the government is using a law passed by our elected representatives to see to it that a drug dealer spends more time in prison?
Of course, you're a law-abiding citizen, so you have nothing to worry about, right?
Well, I don't manufacture or sell drugs so I don't have anything to worry about yet. Let me know when they're using this law to violate the rights of those that haven't done anything wrong.
Quote from the article:
A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the manufacture of chemical weapons. If convicted, Martin Dwayne Miller could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings about six months.
Six months?!?!?? I think the drug laws are kinda whacked, but do you blame a prosecutor from trying to get a stronger sentence any way he can? The guy was manufacturing meth, fer gawd's sake. Not like he was smoking a doob or doing an occasional line.
-Media have to follow the rules from the president.
-No forreing journalist are permitted to ask question to your president or your gouvernment in press conference
-You can be spy by your gouvernment without been an criminal.
-You can't tell politic opinion that contest the gouvernment
When you discover that your latest rant about your taxes in some neo-fascist political forum gets you a midnight visit from the Feds and afterwards, you are never seen or heard of again, you won't get any sympathy from anyone. You won't deserve any.
One of the few comforting things about the "criminalization of dissent" is the certainty that some people like you will get exactly what you deserve. From a government you're stupid enough to trust.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Too bad this isnt survival of the fittest, smartest, stronger, its survival of the richest.
Often the rich and powerful have not earned their spot, ask George Bush.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
This is very much like how the Soviet's used to do it. If one read the Soviet era constitution, citizens in theory were told they had all sorts or rights and freedoms, including to due process, and that these could only be violated for the most heneous of crimes, such as treason. On the other hand, the Soviet treason laws were written so that anyone could be easily and effectivily charged under them :).
Today, in America, we now say due process and freedom is to be enjoyed by all, except those potential or suspected terrorists. Again, the problem is that our terrorist laws being so written that anyone may be charged under them.
And we now have our very own gulogs to boot. What a fitting description for both Guantanimo bay, and for the military brigg in Virginia where several actual American citizens have been held for close to a year now without any rights whatsoever.
Ding! I prefer that they legalize, homogenize, and tax the holy fark outta drugs. We can get rid of dealers, we can get rid of drugs supporting terrorism (wow!) and we can purge some of the idiot pool. Aside from that, the "War-on-Drugs" is completely unwinnable. You cannot win a war against your own tax payers.
>> ...the guy running a meth lab who's now up for a life sentence for 'manufacturing chemical weapons' instead of the much shorter sentence he would have been facing under the current drug laws. Wonderful, huh?
In the part of the country where I live meth labs are a major problem in many counties. Prosecutors using these new procedures are seeing their arrest, conviction, and imprisonment rates increase.
That all sounds pretty wonderful to me. If you're making meth, you're dealing in death and ruined lives.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Well said, but I don't totally agree.
I agree with you that we need to throw the book at more people (drug dealers, mafia), but I don't advocate throwing out all our old laws that dealt with it, and replacing them with one big "Evil is illegal and subject to death penalty" law.
The Patriot Act (and sequel) is too vague, gives the government powers that are too broad and have no oversight. Don't you remember how Schwarzenegger wiretapped his wife's phones and carried out full surveillance? He had no oversight in that instance. I think we should fix the numerous drug laws, not supersede them all with one vague and broad bill.
I'm worried about the idea that the government can pull up my record of video rentals, phone calls, and library books, and there not being anyone who has to approve of it (like a judge or jury).
Worse, if the FBI came to my place of employment, I would be forced to hand over my pharmacy and health records of any person over to them. They may not have or need a warrant, only a badge. Congress unanimously passed the HIPAA privacy acts for patients, and some guy with a badge can just walk in and take everything without caring about the other laws. How do I know this isnt just some cop who wants to see if his wife has VD?
Typical 'tough on crime' idiocy. You forgot to say 'Give a fair trial and hang 'em' or maybe 'It's time to clean up this town'.
The US legal system was not set up to make it easy to stamp out crime. It was set up to ensure due process, and protect the rights of the accused.
Sentences for the guilty aren't intended to match with your naive and/or hyper-literal application of a legal definition.
As for raising kids...irrelevent.
Lastly, it's every citizen's DUTY to be aware of what government does with regard civil and legal rights. It is also every citizen's duty to challenge any abridgement of those rights.
Well, I, for one, am certainly thankful the the strong-willed among us such as yourself, who with righteous indignation are able to make decisions for the rest of us weak, yellow-bellied tree-huggers. Thank you, sir!
Don't be a zoa (zealous overbearing ass), be happy!
I don't want to think for you. But don't speak out of your head and ass at the same time please.
These cases will be challenged in the courts and many of them will be overturned. We should be able to craft a reasonable bill that prevents these kinds of abuses while loosening up the restrictions that made terrorism detection virtually impossible. Surely we've got the smarts for that?
computerlady - a brand new Slash-daughter - alone, but no longer invisible, in the
If anyone tries to start a rebelion they'll learn more than they want about the power of the patriot act. After all, wouldn't that be like terrorism? We're looking at a defective government that's using its power to increase its power too much. We need to get the people more involved and the media and corperations less involved.
-Tim Louden
I try to be hopefull about the future of america, but shit like this keeps coming up. Are these idiots trying to cause a bloody civil war? Or do they think they can actually pull off a stalinist reversal of america?
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
You have been warned!
On the bright side, I hope now the powers that be have overstepped the mark far enough that the people will kick back.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
As usual, the /. crowd is out there whining about the effects of a law before anything has been tested in court. Who knows if the crytal meth guy will actually be convicted, or if the decision will be reversed on appeal. I'm not defending the patriot act here.
/. readers will make a big stink about the fact that trials/lawsuits can even be filed based on them. Any law can be misinterpreted and used to file a bogus lawsuit. But unless the suit actually holds up in court, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the law. Get back to me when this guy is convicted.
I don't know if it will turn out to have more good or bad effects in the long run. But it does bug me that
-a
Crowd plays the "Imperial March" from Star Wars as Ashcroft enters building: story
And while I can't find it there was also, at a Patriot Act "whoo-ha!" rally, a protestor that directly addressed Ashcroft and said "You're fired" and told him that what he was doing was wrong. You didn't see any of that in the liberal media, however...
You're right.
He should go to prison for making and selling an item that others want to buy.
Yeah, meth is bad for you. Blah blah blah. Last I heard, living in a free country means you can do as much meth as you want-- you're not hurting anyone else.
Laws like this are perversions worthy of the Old Testament.
Good day to you, sir.
You never know who will get one.
If you don't mind what country are you from? And why did you assume I'm an American?
From the article:
This legislation allows us to go after the real criminals, namely the tobacco companies, and their weapons of mass destruction. It would be easy to argue that cigarettes fall under this loose definition. If a successful case were built against the tobacco companies, their executives would serve time in prison. Even if there wasn't a conviction, the case would bring to light the vague definitions proponents of the Patriot Act use to abuse its power. Tobacco companies may think twice about financing a president which pushes for legislation which could be used to convict them of serious offences against the state.
ian
Where is SKYNET when we need it?
Kill The Puny Humans And Their Laws!
America! Land of the free...what a complete joke. Land of the corrupt and arrogant is a more truthful one.
Hey, Uncle George!
Where are we going in this handbasket? Me and the USA have to go pee!
Ahhh, the ACLU. Classic bogeyman of the bible thumping right winger.
I heard if you even say the word God out loud in public the ACLU will come and beat you about the head with large chrome Darwin fishes!
Now THAT'S a typo. Would that me a beer-bong regulation amendment, or some sort of anti-hangover social program? :)
You are not the customer.
Home of the Not So Free....
A morning without coffee is like something without something else.
Drug dealers are scum.
And for that matter, so are drug users.
You make good points and I understand them. It is nice to see that other integent people comment.
I can only say that I could totally agree with everything you said, but I don't mind giving up some rights pertaining to criminal investigation (screw Ben Franklin's quote). If in 5 years no progress has been made, I'll be mad but now I want action.
At this point, I'm just going to back off. I refuse to argue with such an imbecile. Have a wonderful, boring life.
Don't be a zoa (zealous overbearing ass), be happy!
Where do you draw the line? Do you count petrol or sawdust as a "chemical weapon of mass destruction" because it is a substance which has the capability to cause death or serious injury"? Of course not, but it's a badly drafted law that seems to imply otherwise. I suspect the only reason you'd say methamphetamine is more of a "chemical weapon of mass destruction" than petrol or sawdust is because you disagree morally with its production.
There's two problems with vague, stretchy laws like this. First, it makes the law much less transparent - nobody quite knows what crimes they're committing, because it depends hugely on who's stretching the law and what political posture they're taking today. Second, if the public, through Congress, passes a law prohibiting chemical weapons, and it gets "extended" into an anti-drugs law without democratic debate, that's bad for democracy.
This is a separate question from whether there should be laws to lock up drug dealers for life. This is about having a society where criminal laws are plain for everyone to see.
I was afraid of just this scenario from the beginning. Screw these guys, and the congress they rode in on! (And the Dems are just as much to blame as the Reps on this, so screw 'em all!)
Please won't someone get this to the Supreme Court? Right now our best chance of putting an end to this nonsense is if it is found unconstitutional. Failing that my guess is that all the frogs are gonna sit in the water nattering about the heat until it comes to a boil. In a country still divided over the meaning of the 2nd Ammendment I doubt we will find enough people ready to vote the bastards out on this one issue.
Crap...
- -
Are you an SF Fan? Are you a Tru-Fan?
Conservative is absolute, you cannot be a partial conservative, you either want smaller government or you dont.
Bush wants global government, thats "BIGGER" government, so what he wont raise taxes, hes still making government bigger.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Maybe they weren't exagerating when they said drugs fund terrorism.
Who said we live in a free country? We don't. America is run by Democrats and Republicans, not Libertarians.
You're so naive I bet you belive you have the freedom to say what you want, when you want.
It is a known fact that one full cup of regular table salt is a lethal dose. And those terrorists at Morton crank out hundreds of tons of this "weapon" every year.
Sue them!
actually the aclu is about trying to keep the law FAIR for everyone. So we don't come around and skull fuck jerks like you with a shovel without due process.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Okay. How about we think about another five-year span. Say Germany from 1934-1939?
Boy, you'd really be pissed.
Yeah because Libertarians are perfect in all ways.
That's really good news about another meth lab closed for life, how nice.
But moving there won't do you much good, because that obviously labels you as a Subversive Anti-American, and it's just as easy for them to wiretap you 100 km north of the border as 100 miles south of the border, and the Feds kidnap Americans from Mexico so they'll probably try Canada too, and it's presumed that if you're not going there for Subversive Anti-American Reasons, you're going there because marijuana possession is temporarily not illegal in Ontario and readily available in BC as well, so you must be going there to score drugs for your import business, which still makes you an Illegal Combatant.
Australia's pretty nice, though it's a bit on the socialist side and some of the states are run by right-wing bluenose politicians, and the beer's not any better than American beer, though they do have more of it, and they're more friendly and less polite than the Canadians.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Their is no corollary. Germany did not suffer a terrorist attack. Germany had a bad economy and need a scapegoat, so they blamed the Jews. They wanted land, so they took Austria and Poland.
What to the left wing president do? Nothing.
1) I fail to have any sympathy for a guy who runs a meth lab.
2) The sad fact is, Patriot Act or no, in the US and most "civilized" countries there are so many laws that the police can pick you up anytime they want for breaking the law. They just have to care enough to target you and figure out which of the gazilla laws you inadvertently broke.
The "if you're a law abiding citizen" comment, misses the mark. There are so many laws, none of us can go through life without breaking some law. None of us are law abiding anymore, regardless of our intentions.
Also, the sentencing is so Draconian nowadays that the penalty for fighting the arrest and losing makes a plea bargain much more attractive. Given the choice between a 20 years minimum sentence and a 2 year plea bargain, most people take the plea bargain. The 20 years just scares them too much.
The problem isn't "those damn Republicans." Remember many Democrats voted for the Patriot Act. The problem is the political system. Rarely does a politician get elected because they voted to repeal a criminal law. Rarely does a politician get elected for being "soft on crime." Willie Horton anyone? Left or Right, you get votes by promising to protect "the public" and their children. That means you pass MORE laws, even if the existing laws are adequate, because that shows you did something. You pass TOUGHER penalties, because that shows you did something.
That is why we end up with drunk driving laws that set the blood alcohol level at a value lower than the margin of error on the testing devices. And, when this is pointed out to the legislature they just change the margin of error on the test. Not by changing the test, but by changing the definition of margin of error. (Next up, Congress sets the acceleration due to gravity at 11m/s^2.) Because, we HAVE to be tough on drunk drivers "for the children."
That is just one example of the stupid and unreasonable results of the "democractic" political system. I am sure you have your own examples.
I am not supporting the Patriot Act. I wish it and the system that created it wasn't so. But, don't act like this is new. Don't act like the Patriot Act is an exception. And, don't act like the US and only one party is the US plays this horrible game. It is played by both sides, all over the world, all the time.
"Compassionate Conservatism" become synonomous with "slightly to the left of Darth Vader" on 9/11/1, when Bush could get away with his normal political positions instead of having to pretend to be compassionate.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Nice copout pussy.
Thank you for that information.
I predict the paranoid politicians will continue to pass laws and create acts that slowly destroy any freedom and rights the forefathers built this country on in the name of "terrorism." In or around 2005 the american citizens will start getting their homes invaded under false accusations "Waco style" until the citizens start rebelling against the government.
No matter how much you may dislike the alleged effects of a drug on someone, that doesn't make it a 'chemical weapon'.
[100% ISO 646 Compliant]
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.
Or the stormtroopers kicking down the door at midnight to send a little boy back to a place his mother died to get him away from.
Remember when Dubya said that he was a compassionate conservative who wanted to teach little kids to read, and get our manufacturing jobs back from those 'filthy' Mexicans. Remember when the man could barely speak the english language and was just a jolly little fool who did absolutely nothing besides oversee a sudden plunge in the economy and then came up with the brain dead idea that giving tax money to people who traditionally don't spend money?
I really miss those days. When That's My Bush was on television, it was okay to question the government and even though lots of people were unemployed it was still a pretty good time.
In case you didn't note, this is going to be a rant. Two years and three days ago, a bunch of Religious Conservatives hijacked a couple of plains and showed the US (Succesfully this time) that crazy people mean buisness. The largest terrorist attack on US soil was no longer in the hands of a crazed American, but in the hands of a bunch in another country, and thus things became scary.
The World Trade Towers were chosen because not only did a great number of people work there, and that their destruction would be economically crippling for the area and damaging to the US, but because they were symbols of what the United States stood for.
In reaction to these attacks Americans suddenly took up and saw that all of these freedoms which we enjoy and espouse (but don't abide by in countries where we pick up cheap goods from, like China and the Middle East {that's right, gas is cheap in America, come on Europeans, stand up tell everyone how much taxes impat your gas prices}), allow people easy access to pretty much whatever they want. Yup, apparently the fundamental principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness were total anathema to the dogma of security. Benjamin Franklin pointed out that fact and the converse, that a society cannot have both freedom and absolute security.
Esentially, 9-11 has been used to pass a Neo-Conservative agenda of global tyranny and domestic oppression. I emphasize the Neo part, because I know many conservatives, they are wonderful and nice people who have many good ideas. These people, a mixed coalition of reps and dems, are responsible for a campaign of silencing all opposition and enriching themselves and their allies upon the spoils of wars.
It is intersting to note how someone brought up 1984 earlier, it is mentioned in that book how war or the idea of such activity is wonderful at putting large populations into subservient moods. Notice how we have gone from a War on Terror (where we didn't find Osama or even put an end to the Taliban, or stop terror), to a War on Iraq (where we didn't find Sadaam and are busy ruling it like fuedal lords and expending 150+ billion on what was supposed to be a short and sweet little engagement). The American people are being manipulated in a very base manner into thinking that anything but pure agression will get us killed, and that if we vote for anyone but this psychotic faction that we will all die in some sort of hellish confligaration of biological, nuclear and chemical weapons.
I for one see that pretty much everything this administration has done has a negative value. They have done much to obfuscate their agenda and to make them appear to be 'compassionate' but those agendas were never pursued, the heavily pushed "No Child Left Behind act" has absolutely no funding and even if implemented it was only going to require more idiotic tests and dropping out of school. Where is the Aid to Africa? Where are the morals and where is the trust that we were promised in 2000? We have simply replaced blow-jobs and S&L scandals, for corporate patronage, more S&L scandals, financial mismanagement, and corruption. And Ari Fleischer and the rest of the crew lies to us as much as the Iraqi information minister lied to the people of Iraq.
Next year, when the fields narrow we need to get out there and force a change or else things will start to head from bad to worse and we will see freedoms and liberties that we once took for granted picked off one by one all in the name of some kind of security that we will never attain as long as our country remains self-centered and militaristic.
Domain name: WEARABLETECH.COM
Administrative Contact:
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Possibly because of that?
I don't live in the United States. I live in Canada. I'm glad I do, because I think your government has gone crazy.
As a totally scatagorical example, what rules exist for bleach and/or Toilet Duck? These are things many people have in their bathrooms, but they're also precursers for chlorine gas (technically a chemical weapon). Can the FBI kick down your door for having bleach and Toilet Duck in your house?
Another example of knee-jerk lawmaking, or legislating from the crotch - however you want to refer to it.
Geez.. you guys are right... It sucks that GWB is oppressing free speech and stuff. I mean, nobody can complain about the Patriot Act, Ashcroft, or the Administration without getting charged as a terrorist or getting arrested or just disappearing. I mean, there has to be hundreds of former slashdotters, indymedia types, and the like at the Death Camp in Guantanemo. My eyes have been opened to the truth. Bush and Co. are the Third Reich. Heil Ashcroft. And the media. Don't get me started about the neofascist government control of the media. Obviously, Al Franken's number one book slipped through all the government censors, but I bet they won't that happen again!
P.S. That was sarcasm.
P.P.S. I don't like the Patriot Act(s) either. I don't think its the end of life as we know it. Get a grip. Please. Leftists are so pathetically terrified of Bush and his administration its almost amusing. The amount of paranoia and blind hatred way surpasses the paranoia and blind hatred the right had with Clinton.
Trolls: The high-tech version of those morons that scrawl obscenities in public bathrooms.
The Patriot Act is something over which a lot of people get worked into a frenzy, I know, but 1984 this is not. There are lots of good canned lines the ACLU and others are using to fire up their supporters, but catchiness doesn't make them true. Policy disagreements over issues like this need to be addressed with reason and respect, not insults and emotion.
One of the best articles in defense of the Patriot Act appeared in Commentary and the Wall Street Journal and was written by Robert Bork, a very conservative former judge, Reagan Supreme Court nominee, and legal scholar. I think he makes some points about which a lot of the rabid anti-Patriot Act people are unaware.
I happen to think the Patriot Act is appropriate. If you don't, that's cool. I can handle disagreement, and I urge you to vote your conscience in 2004. But let's keep the debate constructive.
..is wonderfully ironic given the last line of your message.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
Fuck the US :)
:)
I wait for the inevitable day it's a smoking hole in the ground
War isn't about who's right. It's about who's left.
That would actually be a brilliant way to bring this into public attention. Anyone got a spare lawyer lying around that they could lend us?
... you'd know that schizophrenia and Multiple Personality Disorder are not the same thing. Sure, schizophrenics have voices in their heads, but the voices often aren't friendly ones...
Freedom: "I won't!"
I'm sure it will all turn out fine. We just have to put up with a few Legal Blunders for the time being.
Remember what Dr. Phlox said about humans and their optimism. Ok, I guess I'm much more happy with the fiction on TV...can you blame me?
A programmer is a machine for converting coffee into code.
In a month or so the Bush administration will reveal they have overwhelming evidence of the widespread production of just such a "chemical weapon" in Iraq...lawyers formerly working for SCO will then be brought in to oversee the dissemination of the details.
Plays violent online games as: Nerfherder76
I hope you support our administration's crackdown on drugs, porn, and terrorism. I'm glad to say the war on drugs is going strong. The war on terrorism is going well too. And now we are starting a war on pornography. In implementing these programs, we the rulers of the United States of America will assure freedom and liberty from the evils that threaten to destroy it. Remember, Fear is Freedom.
- General Ashcroft
Who are you going to vote for? I don't remember many Democrats being opposed to the USA PATRIOT Act when it was voted on. I think you will be hard pressed to find anyone to vote for who wants it repealed. The only time the "democractic" process will actually deliver change is where you can find some very rich people who are affected by a particular issue. In this case I think you are out of luck. Laws like this are ment for ordinary people only.
Do you really think Ashcroft gives a damn about terrorism? Before 9-11 he was focused on crusading against pornography, drugs and all the other things which are against his particular view of christian morality, and that's still all he really cares about. The patriot acts were never about fighting terrorists (at least not to the DoJ), they were about implenting the kind of laws that they needed for their moralist authoritarianism, but which they couldn't have gotten passed otherwise. I suspect Bin Laden would be quite approving of the kind of fundamentalism many members of the current US administration display.
Some States already had laws in place [War on Drugs] regarding circumstances where no warrent is required to peform a search if the presence of drugs and guns were in place.
A further strech of this theme... if you had the chemistry to produce drugs (meth for example), you could be prosecuted based on the quality of drugs you could produce.
Where do you draw the line? Do you count petrol or sawdust as a "chemical weapon of mass destruction" because it is a substance which has the capability to cause death or serious injury"?
This should be easy. A gun isn't a WoD as the amount of death or injury it can inflict limited to the size of it's clip and requires line of sight for an accurate kill. It's a Weapon of Specific destruction. Meth isn't used as a WoD because its primary intended use in it self doesn't immediate death, and can hardly be described as a weapon because it requires you consume it to cause the desired effect, death, or serious injury.
To qualify as a WoD, it *should* be in my minds eye something designed to kill people indiscriminately without the need of line of site delivery.
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
In addition to MartinG's point about the "due process" (or lack thereof) under UK anti-terrorism laws, the government in the UK is also trying its best to collect personally idenifiable data on any "troublemakers" whenever it can. Even if you're just arrested and formally cautioned for something -- without ever seeing a courtroom, never mind being found guilty of a crime -- your fingerprints, DNA, etc. will be taken. If you choose to accept the caution, it will disappear from your record after a few years, but would anybody like to bet on where the fingerprint and DNA data goes and for how long?
Using inappropriate legislation to gain this sort of personal information, which historically has been liable to abuse at a later date, is simply wrong. There is no pontification here, it's just the cold, hard truth.
The yes, the US government does and will abuse personal freedoms and due process in a similar way if it can. Remember how many people are still being held in the camp at Gitmo, and that's from the last war. How long exactly is processing them and charging them with some crime supposed to take?
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Welcome to Dick Cheney's New America!!!
Speeding is illegal. Suggest that every car should have a sensor that detects itself speeding, and automatically assesses a fine to be paid to the appropriate jurisdiction, and watch people recoil in horror.
Underage drinking is illegal. Suggest that random door-to-door searches for alcohol be employed to enforce that particular set of laws, and watch respect for the law diminish to nothing.
This does not mean there is not a critical purpose for GPS-based tracking devices (yes, even covertly deployed) and canvassing a region, for there certainly is. As uncomfortable as Patriot makes us, we cannot deny there are circumstances that indeed justify significantly more zealous investigation and prosecution.
But the circumstances matter.
To those whose powers are wide, their interest must be narrow. To those whose interests are wide , it is a matter of life and death that their powers be kept narrow. A team dedicated to the prevention of nuclear terror must not have their procedures threatened by, say, a "moral police" seeking to police adultery! Gloating about mission creep and the utter inability to keep sacred maybe the only saving grace of Patriot ("really, we just want to go after those who want to kill us all") is astonishing.
This is a slippery slope that costs lives. I cannot believe I am hearing it praised.
Set up a webcam pointed at the place. Provide an "add to archive" button, so people watching can add stills to the archive when something interesting happens. Provide links to political opponents of your current local government.
Who do we blame for nicotine, 02, alcohol, chlorine, fluoride, petroleum, Freon, phosphates, nitrates, nitrites, and the millions of other lethal compounds that we run across every day? Aren't they just as lethal as meth? I guarantee that history will back me up in saying that more people have died from bad booze than meth. When will the feds bust some moon shiner from Kentucky with the wrath they bestow on people who run meth labs?
Look at the case of "Disco" Donnie. If you want to see a host of misguided drug laws click here to see laws that target music and not drugs. In the mid 80's politicians drafted and passed a law nicknamed the "crack house" law (Title 21, USC Section 856). Basically, anyone providing a safe place to do drugs is vulnerable. Good idea in principal, but vaguely worded. This could apply to almost every venue owner or event promoter. For much of the modern era, new musical genres have had the stigma of a related drug. Jazz and marijuana, Rock & Roll and alcohol, Rock and hallucinogens, Disco and cocaine are just a few examples. Now it's electronic music and ecstasy. These days, politicians aren't fighting the drugs, they are fighting the music. Their "logic" tells them that if they stop the music, people won't do the drugs. I don't do drugs, and I don't break laws... but dancing late at night has made me a criminal. Just because you think you aren't breaking any laws now, doesn't mean you won't be a criminal someday either. Most of these laws can't get passed on their own merits. The "RAVE" act was tried 2 separate sessions, and failed. So instead, the author buried it in the Amber Alert law.
The problem here is that the "Patriot" mistake we call a law is that it's being used for things that it was not intended for. It was passed during the flurry of legislation after Sept. 11th as a promise to reduce the chances of another 3000 people dying at the same time. While I agree that meth is bad stuff, and it should be stopped, laws need to be made to deal it with it directly instead of slipping through some back door. We all know this won't stop with drugs either. With the way politicians draft vaguely worded legislation, laws passed today will be used for the most unimaginable things later.
I propose a name change. How about instead of Justice Department, we call it the Ministry of Love?
I suspect that people who've never contemplated committing a crime might shortly need to be worried about charges of treason. According to Donald Rumsfelt, that's roughly what you're committing if you criticize the administration's wartime policies. Reuters (via Yahoo).
Slashdotters have been rightly concerned about the integrity of assorted new computer-assisted voting systems. That's important, but perhaps we should spare some concern about whether there'll be a Presidential election at all in 2004. It's not going to be easy to run a campaign if criticizing the administration's actions becomes somehow associated with "giving aid and comfort to the enemy."
Meth-makers and money-launderers are not angels, and we could do with fewer of them out there making trouble. But this is still a government of laws, and we had prior laws on the books to deal with them.
Anne
DUCT TAPE: The Election Supervisors' Secret Weapon
If it did happen, you wouldn't even know what hit you. If you reached for that gun, you'd be dead before the safety was off.
Of course, this sort of mistaken identity can and does happen anyway, but if you're labelled a terrorist before you even start, it's a good bet that they'll shoot first and ask questions never.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
In a few years I'll retire, and run for the border.
... God tells them all to kill the infidel, non-believers, pagans, ... the rest of US, EU, and them.
..., and murder preaching religious fundamentalist are imprisoned for life or executed for crimes against humanity, then the rest of humanity (our species) is endanger of extermination too validate western (including Islam) religious mythology.
....
. html
I don't expect DemReps politicians to work for US as long as they are paid for by them (the members of the totalitarian Capitalist Republic).
Also, be it Islamic, Christian, and/or Jewish fundamentalist
Until corrupt politicians, scam-artist CEOs, CFOs,
Jerry Falwell and Bin-Laden have much in common. Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, and Rumsfeld are all good friends of the moral majority and Jerry Falwell
Fun Reading Assignment: http://www.newyorkslime.com/bush-new-constitution
OldHawk777
Reality is a self-induced hallucination.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
This is the problem. Look around. Just about everything we use in day to day life could be considered a chemical weapon.
It give the prosecutors way too much power to selectively apply terrorist laws to situations that don't demand them in order to increase the penalties.
Think the sentances for meth are too low? Raise them, don't try to apply terrorist laws.
Whoever modded this troll should be kicked in the teeth with a steel toed boot. Idiot moderators.
Oooh! That was funny! I really crack myself up!
That's why I said it was "temporarily not illegal" - it looked like the provincial government was going to make it a fine and not jail time, but there was a while that a judge had tossed out the old laws entirely.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Heir Ascroft requests that you hand over all of your passwords to pr0n sites, and those of friends, for "review", immediately. Seig Heil!!!
itadakimasu
It has been a much abused word here in Europe where rightwing parties have been accused for being fascist - however, it seems the current American administration is getting close.
From Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary:
An extreme rightwing political system or attitude, which favours strong central authority and does not allow freedom of speech.
Patriot I and II pretty much goes for the strong central authority and DMCA + some patriot goes for freedom of speech. Perhaps not a perfect fit - but it's still quite sad.
Don't get me wrong. I love americans and their country - it's just that the slope is rather slippery post 9/11 - and it really seems to be going down hill at a very fast pace. I have no idea what this will eventually lead to - and hopefully the people will stand up and demand their freedom be given back. Otherwise we in Europe are probably screwed as well - events in America often forebode what is going to happen here.
I'm amazed you have such karma to burn. Anyway, that's really a lovely resume you have. Enjoy your new emails.
Don't be a zoa (zealous overbearing ass), be happy!
Isn't it possible to OD on caffeine? Now when someone at work asks what I'm doing, I can say "I'm justing having my morning cuppa WMDs."
Scott
--
Scott Gallagher-Starr
Assistant Director, North Bend Public Library
North Bend
Unfortunately you'd have to convince a prosecutor, since this is a criminal law. Still, sounds like a great double-whammy ad campaign...
Whoever modded this troll should be kicked in the teeth with a steel toed boot. Idiot moderators.
Too bad there isn't an option for the more appropriate -1 Ignorant Fool.
You know how Teddy Roosevelt was so against the trusts (megacorps that were above the law and beyond mere monopoly, a la Standard Oil) because they were more powerful than the government in so many ways, hence offending his own megalomaniacal sensibilities? Apparently, the U.S. Government today is disappointed about the fact that modern megacorps had taken on the role of Big Brother via image recognition, data mining, and monopolistic practices. In the face of such competition, they apparently feel the need to get their anti-Constitution on. Pull out the big guns!
I'm done debating the competency of our current Presidential administration or the legitimacy of the Presidential office. In the face of this perpetually double edged sword, I just want to keep both the terrorists and the government in check.
Do see drastic change we *must* elect someone outside of the professional politics game and most importantly someone with out the D or R. Does anything *really* change from president to president and from Senate body to Senate body?
Drastic reform is within our grasps if we just pick someone else! The mechanism is there for us to get rid of the B.S. already. Even if you disagree with 50% of the views that the person you vote for holds, your still sending a message. And that message is:
D's and R's can ROT.
I'm not much for the Patriot Act due to the invasiveness with regards to privacy. But at the same time, I have no sympathy for drug makers like that of methamphetamines. Have anyone ever lived near a place being used for a meth lab? Does anyone realize the danger of being poisoned by being within the proximity of the vapors that come from those labs? Has anyone been near the proximity of a meth lab when it explodes?
As far as I'm concerned it IS a "chemical weapon".. so throw the key away. Those SOBs know how dangerous that crap is, yet still risk themselves and anyone else around to make a fast buck off of someone's misery.
!@#$% whole-grain cereal. When I want fiber, I eat some wicker furniture. - G. Carlin
Smokers have become the serfs of the governments' feudal funding system.
-Lucas
Why don't YOU be the guinea pig for all these court cases. You can look forward to spending the next few years of your life in a court room or jail cell and spending hundereds of thousands of dollars defending yourself.
I am so happy to be living only a few hundred miles from the nearest US border crossing. I don't know how you folks can put up with the BS from your government.
They are a bunch of total idiots who are taking advantage of their draconian legislation (under the umbrella of National Security) to supress the rights guaranteed you by your constitution.
This isn't right and you should do something about it !!
I am sad to say, The average American is a Farm Animal. As long as we stay nice and peaceful and productive, the Corporations will continue to milk you and let you live in the barn... Step out of line, and you'll be a "Big Mac" ingredient. (yeah, like there is any beef in those things...)
Maybe some day we will repeal the Bill of Rights - and maybe we'll actually do it by the book this time. After all, that 200-year-old piece of paper is sure making prohibition difficult to enforce. Maybe prohibition actually would be winnable if "criminals" weren't protected by that ancient piece of revolutionary garbage.
If we got rid of the first amendment, we could destroy all those books on mushroom growing, marijuana growing, and meth-making. High Times magazine?... gone. Anti-prohibition web cites?... Gone. The people that write all that garbage?... Gone.
If we got rid of the second amendment, the police could feel safer in their communities. They could arrest anyone they pleased without worrying about the scumbag actually trying to resist.
If we got rid of the third amendment we could station troops in homes of suspected drug dealers - and force the drug dealers to pay for the soldier's room and board. Just think how 'safe' we would all be with a police officer in every home!
If we got rid of the fourth amendment we could check every house in da' hood for drugs and guns. We could clean the place out and make their communities safe!
If we got rid of the fifth amendment we could simply force all of those criminals to confess, thereby saving the tax-payers the expense of actually going through with a trial!
Plus, we could try criminals for the same crime more than once. We could try them in state courts, then federal courts - just to make sure that they don't get away with their crimes! (Wait a minute, we're already doing that anyway.)
If we got rid of the sixth amendment, any concerned person could report on the activities of drug dealers without fear of retribution - because the government would not be obliged to ever tell the criminal who turned them in.
If we got rid of the seventh amendment... Wait... there really isn't any reason to get rid of the seventh. But maybe we should get rid of this anyway, since juries are under no obligation to convict a person of a crime that they believe to be unfair or unconstitutional - what a frightening thought that is! Think of the trouble that would ensue if that little secret were to ever get out!
If we got rid of the eighth amendment, we can impose as high a fine as we please. And really, why should the punishment fit the crime? When we catch somebody with a few illegal plants, why shouldn't we be able to make an example of them by putting them in jail 10, 20, or even 30 years. (Hmmm, we're already doing that too.)
If we got rid of the ninth amendment, we could say that government really does have the right to regulate the personal habits of all you citizens, since the constitution doesn't expressly say that we can't!
And as for the 10th amendment... Well, we never really paid attention to that anyway. If we did, we wouldn't have prohibition in the first place. And besides, how many people really know what the last few amendments are anyway! Thanks to our public school system, most of you peasants can't even count that high!
Instead of focusing on how innocent people need these protections, focus on how criminals and TERRORISTS use these protections to threaten people.
After all, if a TERRORIST likes it, it must be wrong. Anyone who supports those protections is probably pro-TERRORIST or at least anti-American.
You have Freedom of Speech, but if you say anything against the government's policies, you can be investigated for TERRORIST sympathies or links.
Now it is all about packaging what you want as anti-TERRORIST while portraying anyone who disagrees with you as soft-on-TERRORISTS.
Please. ruin your country. write the most ridiculous laws you can come up with. sue your neighbour. buy your kid a gun. du wharever you want.
BUT PLEASE! leave the rest of the world out of this madness!
thanks.
Privacy is terrorism.
Really. It has never been this crucial that one be able to make the distinction between those that fight for our rights, freedoms, liberties, livelihood (... here's a clue: It's certainly not those currently in power no matter what they say), and those that see your rights and freedoms as a nuisance that should be exterminated by hook, crook, and propaganda. Know those who care for the common wo/man, and those who are out to screw you while telling you they are out to protect you.
Visit The ACLU and The EFF. And be sure to make a donation. Those are the people on *your* side.
Don't let anyone play on your emotions and 9/11. Open your eyes and see reason. Learn from history, and put two and two together before it's too late.
Maybe to you these issues are "arguments" or "debates," but the rest of us are trying to resolve questions about issues that affect our lives. If you came to debate, you'd might as well go home. If you really care about what you're talking about, by all means stay.
Career debaters are more worthless than career politicians. At least the politicians can be held accountable for what they say/do. A debater that doesn't even believe what he's spouting can't be stopped (he'll cry free speech), only ignored.
So, because the U.S. isn't exactly 100% identical to Germany, we should ignore that period in history with relation to our current situation? We suffered a terrorist attack and need a scapegoat, because the real bad guy is elusive. The whole Jew thing has already been done, so lets blame all of the Arabs for what happened. Broader governmental powers are solving the problem in an unreasonably short period of time, so we have to give the government more powers. Still not working. Well, maybe if we put all of the Arabs in certain sections of the cities it'll be easier. They still have all of there rights, well at least all of the ones we didn't take away. Oops, that's not very effective either. We just suffered another terrorist attack, because we were to busy attacking a scapegoat to get the real perpetrators. Well, the real perpetrators are still hard to catch, so lets go back to that scapegoat and punish them some more, so we feel better. After all, it's really a big conspiracy on the part of all Arabs, and they're only sub-human anyway, so why not. Tougher policies aren't working? Well, maybe if we ship them off to concentration camps, that'll help. Meh, that's too expensive. Let's just gas them all and be done with it. ...but you're right, there's no corrollation. We should forget the haulocaust even happened (assuming you agree that it did happen).
"If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for everyone else."
Where do I send my resume?
Shame you had to post this on Slashdot. Getting your contact information is going to be hell.
On this topic, I have an important question for anyone in the US who is looking at moving to Canada to get away from shit like this. How likely are you to get approved for immigration? I haven't completed college yet (I think I scored 3 points too short on an online test because of this), but I am a highly skilled technical worker. Is Canada eager to grab techies from the US or must we follow the same immigration guidelines as everyone else? :-)
I would enjoy moving to a country where the politicians have their heads on straight. I'd like politicians that don't perceive their citizens as the enemy (as ours does) and considers American corporations their only allies. (Notice how this trend is so very similar to the RIAA and the MPAA?) A little less religious nonsense in governing would be nice too--no good will come from trying to induce some insane, apocalyptic, Bibically inspired end-game scenario by making war with everyone you can.
Join Tor today!
Simply amazing, how the same slashbots decrying "CENSORSHIP!!" at every turn have no problem doing it to others where it suits them.
I don't see a single person crying censorship. Please cut and paste an example. Just because someone moderated it as a troll doesn't mean it's censored. I mean, you could read it... right?
For anyone who's interested, here a link to the voting record of the Senate on the USA PATRIOT Act of 2001:
USA PATRIOT Act voting record
How many people realize that the bill passed the Senate by a vote of 98 to 1?
Who says we're any better off?
Wanted: One witty yet thought provoking
They didn't have any weapons that could reach us and their army folded almost instantly when we attacked. Now we're paying over 4 billion dollars a month and it looks like we'll be out another 87 billion dollars soon.
We're spending money we don't have to defeate enemies that couldn't touch us.
I don't recall hearing Rush come out against anything Bush has been pushing. Maybe I missed that day.
The fact that this shift has happened will catch up to us when we realize we don't have any public schools, or any public services for that matter. Hey, would you like to burn your trash rather than have the city pick it up? You too can be like rural americans! Well, services might still exist, but they'll be run by corporations, and we'll have to pay out the ass for 'em. Maybe people will like it better that way though. Maybe the constitution and democracy is just outdated.
Anyway, it'll be a sad day when the public school system is eliminated. Then you can say goodbye to racial equality and equal opportunity. Oh wait, we don't care about those things anymore...
This is about a piece of state legislation which was poorly worded, the patriot act is about survailence and investigation no one will ever be prosecuted under it. Legislation should always be met with checks and balances, which they are, this guy has not been prosecuted yet. As long as the Judicial system checks the Legislative and Executive branches USA will always be the great country it has always been. When the Patriot Act is used wrongly in manners resembling what we saw during the cold war I'll be the first to protest, but it has not and has only done good. Please cool your paranoia!
After 9/11, this nation was living in fear. Bush used this fear to rip away the constitution from the people of this nation. The PAITROT ACT was first. This law created in fear, increased the governmental power to destroy the onstitution. Then TIPS, modeled after the East German Secret Polizi "STASI". Now comes TIA, "Total Information Awareness", the database that knows everything about every US citizen. I mean "Terrorist Information Awareness" . Now its alright, do the same, but change the name.
The is next stupid idea is "Terror Futures Market", People bet on terrorist acts. People that play would say "I'll buy a car bomb for next Tuesday for $100". Even states are now databasing people. The OIA run by the convicted felon John Poindexter.
CAPPS and CAPPS2 is used every time you try to get on a plane. If people were asked "papers please" they would stop it imideatly, but it is done eletronicly so they never know.
The loss of privacy, freedom, and constitution rights is the worst thing Dubaya has done so far, but lets just wait, he has not finished yet.
Somebody had to say that difficult word...
um... thanks for the drug info DEWD. you sure are ignorant.
Has the capacity to cause death and serious injury. Quick! Kill all the plants!
Hey, wait a minute, Carbon-dioxide can cause death and serious injury too.....
If your going to hammer a piece of legislation, especially one as hammerable as this one generally is, can you site better examples please?
I mean, a guy running a meth lab is up for a life sentence, and someone is claiming that's a BAD thing?
Say it with me folks... DON'T RUN A F'ING METH LAB!
Poor, poor drug dealers... They may have to take it up the ass a few more years in the federal pen because they were prosecuted as chemical weapons specialists? BIG F'ING DEAL!
Seriously... there is plenty of legitimate grips to make about the Patriot Act and it's coming addition, but these examples are NOT them. In fact, these are probably examples of where it has done some good.
Lord knows we ain't stoppin' no terrorists with it.
If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
Wouldn't it be great to see AC posting banned on topic like this. The we could see who the real hipocrits are.
These kinds of reactioary laws pass by 99% in the congress all teh time. Blaming Ace Bush and the "neo consrvatives" for this is moronic. The political classes are to blame. Not just the "evil rupublicans." The Demokrats are more apt to abuse this crap than stupid Bush will. Can anyone say Waco? Ruby Ridge?
It's OK to lie when you are a liberal left wing Demokrat.
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
As they say in the old country: "OWNED"
Did your momma ever tell you? You are a moron!
Books would be classified in the Terrorist Penal Code as Weapons of Mass Instruction.
It would be illegal, punishable by death by burning, to possess or traffic in any such materials banned by the government. For the convenience of the guilty, the government would offer the choice of being burned at the stake or in a huge bonfire.
To enforce compliance, the law would allow any federal agent, or anybody claiming to be a federal agent, to enter any property, with or without permission or the use of force, to search and seize anything, to beat up, rape, arrest, or kill anyone, and to charge the party being investigated any "reasonable" fee for the aforementioned services.
Of course, under the new law, acts of real terrorism, as in blowing things up and killing lots of people, would fall under civil code, like intellectual property laws. Thus, if you are killed in a terrorist attack, you would have to sue the terrorist in small claims court.
Does this mean that we can also brand Bush Sr and his wife as terrorists for "manufacturing" the monster that is killing our citizens EVERY DAY?
How about we just brand the monster itself a terrorist and call it even.
Well in that case let's just go all the ways and have all out Taliban style Shariah laws.
Unless you're doing something illegal you won't be stoned to death so what are you worried about?
Could this be at the city level of government? Or does it have to be at the state or federal?
Wake up, America.
It feels good, America;
and buy American,
I'll pledge your next child
to be an American.
Oh, what a bunch o' shit -
Nazi propaganda.
Thanks to crap like that
got a cruise missle in the backyard.
You know what people are going to vote for? The guy who says 'I will tax you less', 'I will give you more money'.
He could also want to bring back segregation and most voters wouldn't care because he's not going to take their money.
The USA's culture has changed considerably since the 70's. Greed is now God. All anyone cares about is themselves and their possesions. Hell that's what's killing the American Family. Let's see, why do mommy and daddy work 80 hours a week each? That's right so he can afford an upper-middle class life.
Man that's so worth it isn't it? I mean you get to have your kids driven to school by the nanny in the new Lexus. Isn't that the American Dream?
20 years, that's how long I give this society before it collapses on itself. Civilization won't end, but you won't recognize the USA that's for sure. A lot of people aren't going to want to be part of the rat race any more.
-- taking over the world, we are.
Terrorism detection wasn't impossible. The FBI didn't do it's job. The FBI has and never will be held to account for it's falure to do it duty to protect the citizens of the US. But what do you expect from a bunch of Darl Mcbride wannabes? You can keep givng the FBI and DOJ more "tools" till you are blue in the fact that will not change the fact they failed to protect the US and are still failing to protect the US from terrorism. More laws are poltitcal cover for being inept and more concerned with looking good and getting good pay than getting any terrorists.
It's OK to lie if you area a liberal left wing Demokrat.
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
"I would enjoy moving to a country where the politicians have their heads on straight."
Still easily still better than the US, Canada is definitely not a land where the politicians have their heads on straight.
I'm sure I might have missed some of what he said.
Perhaps you can be a little more specific? Is Rush against the Patriot Act? Is that what you're saying? That is part of Bush's domestic policy. Did Rush come out against Bush's statements about gay marriage?
"Domestic agenda" is such a huge topic.
Cigarettes are designed to be addictive.
Meth (as in this case) are designed to be addictive. Dead people don't pay money for drugs. I fail to see the difference...
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Sounds like that would cover the likes of Philip Morris...
FWIW, Rep. Dennis Kucinich was and is against the PATRIOT Act. He also doesn't stand a chance, but it's good to be thorough.
___
Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum.
Libraries have been quite concerned with Patriot and I have been working with that community for quite a while to modify the databases to only keep track of overdues at the expense of being to track of useful demographics such as what books to purchase (youth, adult fiction, non-fiction etc.) They are very protective of privacy of the patrons even to the point of losing a valuable insight to the needs of the people that need them the most.
"I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution, or that have failed in their purpose, or that impose on the people an unwarranted financial burden. I will not attempt to discover whether legislation is 'needed' before I have first determined whether it is constitutionally permissible. And if I should later be attacked for neglecting my constituents' interests, I shall reply that I was informed their main interest is liberty and that in that cause I am doing the very best I can."
- Barry Goldwater, "The Conscience of a Conservative
you support Bin Laden.
...
or whatever
it's not a law passed by "our" elected representatives, you're uninformed(sheeple)
From the article:
:P
Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and contains toxic chemicals.
Doesn't gasoline qualify? If so, it's time to start prosecuting the entire oil and petrochemical industry, is it not? Oh wait, they've got buddies in high places.
"People" using "unnecessary" quotes should be "shot".
Arrest Oil execs.
Oil companies are producing substances that have the capability to cause death or serious injury.
In fact, gasoline fires are a dangerous fact of life around gas stations- there was a massive explosion at one recently not too far from here.
Gas also contributes to many brain injuries by those who inhale its vapor. Not to mention the fact that gasoline is extremely toxic when injested.
You say it can be used legally? oh?
Methaphetamines are given out as prescriptions for a variety of psychological conditions and, in addition, are commonly distributed to those in the military as stimulants.
So when they arrest YOU for storing a gas can in your garage "well, it might have been used as an explosive", you can wave your hands around and shout "But I'm a single mom!!" That will imress them. It'll impress your cellmate too.
The government by its very nature will abuse laws and it's the citizen's job to make sure they don't do that. Sad that it's becoming illegal to do that these days.
Stewey
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
"Patriot Act II will allow any Federal agent to demand records from anyone who interacts with you, with no judicial oversight whatsoever"
Ugh. As hollywood has shown, the sequel is nearly always worse than the original.
I say I ain't giving you no tree fiddy you goddamned Loch Ness monster, get yo own goddamned money!
This is a repost because i stupidly forgot to uncheck the anon button.
"I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution, or that have failed in their purpose, or that impose on the people an unwarranted financial burden. I will not attempt to discover whether legislation is 'needed' before I have first determined whether it is constitutionally permissible. And if I should later be attacked for neglecting my constituents' interests, I shall reply that I was informed their main interest is liberty and that in that cause I am doing the very best I can."
- Barry Goldwater, "The Conscience of a Conservative
The more you keep calling it the 'Patriot Act', the more people who don't know better, and yourselves subconsciously to a point, will think this thing has some relation to patriotism. Stop being two-faced. Practise what you're preaching and call it what it is - the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act.
--C. Montgomery Burns, "The Simpsons" episode 5F14
If it's not Consolidated Lint, it's just fuzz.
It's easy .. as long as you are not from the US. Canada doesn't want anyone from the US for any reason. If you arrive from Bangladesh with no passport or id you will be given instant asylum and a government stipend. Canada hates the US. They would take illterate herdsman form teh subtropic before they would take a US citizen with a degree and money.
If you are arriving thru a sponsorship, it's all up to the sponsor. I know of a few employers that will sponsor folks into the country, and have been involved in the process myself in the past. Like most of my peers, my attitude is pretty strait forward. I'd rather sponsor in somebody from a third world country that appreciates what our country has to offer, rather than somebody from the usa that's going to just be constantly trying to tell us how much better 'the american way' is.
BUT, my attitude and many others are likely to change soon. When the usa revives the draft so they can continue to provide cannon fodder to the situation in Iraq, well, then I will start looking at american candidates with exceptional skillsets, and children approaching draft age. One way to develop 'highly motivated' employees is to provide them something they cant get at home, and have a strong desire to obtain. Currently, the offer is lifestyle. Soon, the offer will be like it was in the 70's, freedom.
Whether there is progress or not, if things keep going on the current track, in 5 years none of us will have a say in the matter.
If a man should get 12 years to life for making meth, because of the social damage of meth, then, should not Ken Lay get death?
What about any CEO that causes a loss of jobs and all of that social dislocation through incompetence or fraud? Sounds like a swinging offense to me.
Oh, jeez, Republicans are so good at talking about accountability but yet they don't want business leaders to go jail for anything, or be sued for anything. It's wrong to get rich selling dope in the Republican world, but, it's ok to get rich stealing old people's pensions.
Republicans should all be shot.
This is my sig.
By "our" elected representatives it is generally understood to mean the Congress of the United States. Unless you know of a different PATRIOT Act which somehow came into law without being passed by Congress speak up.
"Sheeple" - haha, that's funny because you combined the word "sheep" with "people" to imply ignorance. Please point any out, kthx.
I am not an apologist for PATRIOT or it's so-called sequel, however, instead of relying on journalistic or political spin... READ THE FRIGGEN BILL! If it is so important, and I certainly agree that it is, read the actual proposed legislation. PBS has a lovely PDF copy, with analysis. Also, keep in mind, this is a bill that will invariably experience significant modification before it succeeds or fails to become law.
There is heavily active debate here in Washington about the actual threat of this. Don't vote, refrain from voting, or god bless you move to Canada, it's lovely up there, based on propaganda.
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/patriot2-hi.pdf
http://www.freestateproject.org
Of course, you may want to wait two weeks so you'll know where you'll be moving...
Except, of course, that the tobacco companies have been big-time contributors to the Republican Party for years and years. If the operators of meth labs around the country got together and did the same, you'd see a much different attitude toward them from the Justice Department...
John Titor's claims seem frighteningly credible.
Loopholes and more loopholes. I would be nice to see these people get off and shove DOJ members faces in dodo.
Hate to say it, but I'm not sorry for any of you whatsoever. If 70% of Americans support Bush on Iraq, than I have to believe that 70% of you feel the same way, and that is what I am truly sorry for. If just 1% more of you weren't so fucked up that you didn't vote for GWB in the first place, you think you'd be as fucked as you are now? I used to live in the US up until 1 year ago. Unlike you, I actually did something about it (read used to live ...)
Hmmm, election year coming up you know. I wonder how people in a democracy go about changing their government? Oh, I guess you wouldn't know about that.
2 more years of college, and i'm outta here. love my country, hate my government...
I don't care if the ACLU disagrees with each and every verdict that ever gets made, I think its noteworthy that they are right sometimes. I don't know how often but disagreement is freedom.
Slippery slope my ass, this is a sheer cliff. Powers like these will always be abused, whatever the political party. That's why the US Constitution is framed the way it is - with a separation of powers that restricts one branch of goverment, or even two branches in collusion, from doing crap like this.
They're being prosecuted under the laws designed to catch terrorists. Therefore a terrorist = a person who makes chemical weapons.
"Don't you remember how Schwarzenegger wiretapped his wife's phones and carried out full surveillance? He had no oversight in that instance."
I'm speaking about his character in the movie "True Lies"
The same people crying over rights that have only been taken away in your imagination, are the same people who think the right to own firearms is a mistake made by the founding fathers.
Echo's from the ages
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably....
I think we're well on our way on both counts. The increasing intolerance for any public display of religion, and the increasingly large entitlement programs would, I think, prove that.
"...The proposal defines terrorism to mean acts like murder, kidnapping or computer attacks intended to "influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct."
Does this mean the writer of MSBlast could be a terrorist for trying to get the gov't to change its conduct by not buying software with poor security?
IMO, this only scared me after I found the above links.
You do realize that:
a) Democrat senators voted FOR the Patriot Act 48-1,
b) Reno & Freeh tried to obtain the SAME POWERS, without a Nine-Eleven pretext,
don't you? So, I think I'll just forego your advice & continue to vote Libertarian.
I'm not sure exactly when it was changed, but the current slogan is "land of the fee, home of the slave"
I read about collaborative news, etc. when I did a search but I don't see any subject to be able to start new threads besides Science and Tech stuff.. what if you wanted to report about stuff happening in your state that you wanted others to be aware of, etc. which also has reference to the federal levels too?
- Democrats spend LESS and want to INCREASE personal/social freedoms
- Republicans spend MORE and want to DECREASE personal/social freedoms
Democrats want to decrease personal/social freedoms as well. It was the Democrats who told Hollywood to "Clean up your act, or we'll clean it up for you." It was Democrats who came up with Political Correctness & speech codes.
The correct answer is:
- Democrats spend LESS and want to DECREASE personal/social freedoms
- Republicans spend MORE and want to DECREASE personal/social freedoms
And that includes social programs, too. Bush's is INCREASING social program spending 50% faster than Bill Clinton did, and 40% faster than Bill Clinton did in the two years he had a Democrat congress. And that doesn't include the prescription drug bill.
Here's how it is done:
In Soviet Russia, you have due process!
user: member
password: member
Got that on a guess. Damn i'm good
How can we label as terrorists such lovely folks as money launderers and drug dealers?
That's unfair!
I tell you, today it's them, tomorrow they might use laws against murderers, too!
Don't they see the consequences? Where this would lead?
[/sarcasm]
I am a life-long republican who is frankly appalled. I used to think Gore, Gephardt, et al would be the worst thing for this country.
I was so wrong.
I can see Bush sees the presidency as an entitlement to his friends. The tax cut passed...guess what...I earn $200K and I don't qualify a sing tax cut. I would have to earn over a million a year. The poor people of this country? Apparently they got screwed too.
So now we have record deficits to pay for a stupid war in Iraq and to also give tax breaks to really rich people, and in return, we're having our civil liberties taken away?
Shame on anyone who votes for Bush next time around. He could be one of the worst presidents in US history.
Wait a minute! We're supposed to "Take back our freedom!" by voting Democrat??
Who was in office when the DMCA was signed? Bill Clinton. Umm, what party was he a member of again?
Here's the frustrating thing. I've talked to so many self-proclaimed "Democrats" who have plenty of good ideas, but don't seem to cohesively and logically put all of it together. They'll make statements I completely agree with, but then turn around and claim that members of their beloved party are all for those statements - when they're clearly (and publically) opposed to them!
Meanwhile, yes, Republicans are really screwing up the country too, in the name of "freedom and democracy", no less.
THIS is why the Libertarian party exists! Right now, nobody who can do basic math would sanely argue that a Libertarian candidate has good odds of getting elected next term. Still, what you CAN do is research the candidates on the major 2 platforms and pick out the ones who side with Libertarian beliefs. Next election, whatever you do - DON'T just pull that lever to vote for everyone on one party! Pick and choose the people who are doing the right things, no matter what title they run under. These days, you have "Republicrats" and "Demicans", and lots of people in between.
Well, I think it's all down to the current administration being Utopian Anarchists. Why is everyone, who is not in the top 1% of the wealthiest, up in arms about taxes. According to an article in the NY Times Magazine this Sunday (titled "The Tax Cut Con") people's taxes have barely-if-at-all changed since the 60s or 70s! The tax cut only benefits the very rich. The removal or limiting of the estate tax only benefits the very rich. The war in Iraq is costing a tremendous amount of money. So, what is the outcome? Run the country into debt so that social programs must be cut ("Oh well, what do you want us to do?" will likely be the excuse). Social Security. Medicare. Many or most others. What about programs that keep an eye on corporations and their behavoir? EPA? FTC? The poor will become very poor with little or no recourse for anything (no legal representation, higher taxation, no healthcare, no social security). What results from that? Higher crime? Higher death rates? Higher illiteracy? Poverty, sickness, death. Will all the rich just move into gated communities with their Humvee's, Starbucks lattes, and such? What kind of America is that? Utopian? Who the heck, even if rich, would want to live that way? Everyone would have to be incredibly stupid and dull.
:-(
I can foresee the current administration damaging the economy so much that all but the richest will be nearly or completely impoverished. They will be able to afford medical care, proper education, etc. It could become a society of entitlement, not opportunity. Neither will it be a land of freedom and liberty. Nor the home of the brave? What brave soul does this to others solely for personal gain? What about just being reasonable, kind and human? What's next a secession of Texas and some southern states? I used to be quite central, middle-of-the-road in my political views -- neither Democrat nor Republican. The current and envisioned future makes me feel like some raving lunatic and conspiracy theorist. Well, as usual, no one is or has learned a damned thing from history, assuming that hey, they'll be the ones to get it "right." So, they lie, they cheat, they steal. Right in front of us. And no one is saying a goddamned thing. No one is standing up. America: by of and for the rich and corporate. Feh! Bah! Humbug.
I do not find it difficult lately to find all kinds of conspiracy theories seem quite plausible. Did the US in fact just let 9/11 happen as an excuse to begin all of this? What was it like before 9/11? Bush was absent or on vacation a lot. There was a lot of criticism of the election, of his appointments, etc. There is documented evidence of government and military officials planning domestic terrorist activities, with American casualties, and pinning blame on our then headache Castro. Documented evidence. What is to say that while they did not directly plan anything, they did not just let it happen? How on earth did an airliner get to crash in the Pentagon? No radar, early warning, scrambled fighter jets, etc? Not even for the Twin Towers? It just strikes me as very odd.
Well, it's late, I'm tired and have begun rambling. Perhaps some food for thought for others here.
All right all you yahoos, let's get to the truth of the matter.
I watch Brit Hume on Fox News
So, basically, Ashcroft and friends want to build a government where those with power can look ingo anything they want, imprision anybody they want...
Wait a second, that's exactly what the Taliban had in Afganistan and Saddam had in Iraq. It's starting to blur the line between who's friend and foe here...
Luckily, the legislative and executive branches can't take away all our liberties alone. The judicial branch still has the chance to strike down any law that goes too far accross the lines of the Constitutional protections. I mean, a court can still order that "the Feds" an give accused terrorist access to question another accused terrorist for evidence to be used in his defense... rule of law hasn't broken down totally around here.
Or has it?
http://www.fairvote.org/irv/
Instant Runoff Voting means you don't have to vote for the lesser evil, except as your second-to-last choice. It wins. Read about it.
"Since the general civilization of mankind, I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."
James Madison - 1788
I saw that same episode. Jesse, was also trying to make the case that the farmers would also eventually form cartels (kinda like RIAA or MPAA) and regulate their own prices (i.e. much higher) if they were on a free market.
If farmers were allowed to sell on a free/open market and were not subsidized (a think calling it welfare is a gross exaggeration). Two theories of what would happen are: One, 90% of the farm land would be sold and used for other purposes. Two, there would be a mass consolidation of who sells produce/wheat/etc.
I think times have changed and it's possible, both technology wise (better transport, more robust/hearty genetically engineered produce) and politically that more markets are available to our farmers. I have no idea about the economics of it (and consolidation and selling of land might still happen). I do remember that America has the potential to produce a hell of a lot of food. To the extent that when Hitler was carving up the world, he planned on using America as the "bread basket" for the world, and that was an unreasonable thing to consider.
No.
I would enjoy moving to a country where the politicians have their heads on straight. The for the sake of all you hold dear, don't move to Canada. The only reason Mr. Bush's accusedly-authoritarian government isn't deemed second rate to Mr. Chretien's de facto dictatorship is that the USA is much bigger and more noteworthy and we keep our aspirations to quash the voter and free thought at home, and don't export them quite the same way. The Canadian Prime Minister has been gobbling up powers to make himself more potent for the last several years (or at least, the rate of gobbling has accelerated). Media concentration, underfunding of any kind of watchdogs, using the Courts as an excuse, etc.... and we've never had the underlying strength in our Constitution that the US has to begin with. Canada is a place for the thoughtless masses. In the USA, you may think you've got a tough choice for who to vote for. Up here, we might as well not bother as the new de-facto King shall cruise into his new appointment sometime in November... or February... or maybe we'll have two leaders (eh? how does that work?) for a few months.... I really hate the feeling the next election is going to be the first one in which I take the 'refused ballot' option to register a protest. I'm used to voting fot the least of the evils, but it is getting so bad that the least is still almost unconscionable....
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
It is time like this that the liberals will be grateful for Scalia and Thomas. {Link goes to Scalia's opinion in Kyllo v. US.)
No Inflation Taxation without Representation
You'd be wrong. And I'm leaving as soon as I can think of a way to pay for it.
1: Up and move to another country. This is a short term solution. Eventually the country will buckle under US pressure and pass the same laws.
Not necessarily. While this isn't a cureall (see also the UK and AU) and it takes motivated citizens, remember that the US is one of the few nations where political campaigns aren't publically financed, where corporations can buy the political process.
Sometimes it takes a decade or two, but it almost always happens. Of course, then there's not much this new citizen of another country can do since the US has already cemented the law into place all over the rest of the world. Some countries take a look at what the US is doing in some areas then proceed to pass even more draconian laws. I know Canada, England, and Australia have all done this in various areas.
You are talking about the countries with the strongest ties to the US.
The people of the Netherlands have been ignoring the shrill howls of the US government drug warriors about their decriminalizing pot for over a generation. Foriegn nations adopt many stupid US ideas, but not all of them.
The economic consequences of giving up freedom are about to become exceedingly obvious. Selling the idea that giving up freedom is not only stupid, but expensive will be much easier then.
The English-speaking heritage of political freedom, starting with the Magna Carta is being abandoned by English-speaking people in the name of boosting corporate stock prices far enough to trigger CEO quarterly bonuses. There are other places. Perhaps the battle can be won there.
2: Stay here and try to change what's going on, risking imprisonment, but with the chance to still cause some real change. Maybe even before it affects your country. You'll continue to write posts like that,
You take for granted the "Let 'em yap" attitude of the Bushmen towards public policy forum where ordinary people express dissent will last indefinitely. While I expect public discussion to be possible for quite some time, I wouldn't be surprised to see Slashdot hosted in Russia 10 years from now. but the people who care about freedom will still be here.
In the long run, the ones with brains won't be. The people who care about freedom will either be hiding or behind bars.
At least there's somewhat of a chance, as opposed to ducking tails, running to another country, and postponing the inevitable.
If you want to feed your head into a meatgrinder (perhaps literally), go for it. Maybe Amnesty International will let us know what happened to you.
I'm going to assume that you are a typical American geek, who still has the delusions about the political process that the public schools foster in kids on how the US political process really works. If you knew how the process really works even as well as say, a power Windows user knows his workstation hardware works, you wouldn't have posted this.
The short version: Money talks, bullshit walks. I've been calling here and in other tech forums for some of the high-tech millionaires around here for the last couple of years to put a megabuck or two into building the infrastructure for a Political Action Committee to represent us in Congress, to make it possible to organize the geek political community into something capable of getting meaningful change. Got some nice +5s out of it, but zero interest from anyone willing to do anything about it in a position to do it.
In the days of the American Revolution, we had people with money (George Washington wasn't exactly broke) willing to put their "lives, fortunes, and their sacred honors" on the line for the sake of freedom. There are no such people here with the bucks
Tech Public Policy stuff
The reason they are asking for such powers is because our wonderful lawyers have tied the hands of law enforcement.
This is to give law enforcement the tools they need to nail these terrorist cells and make it stick. Current laws on the books make it too easy for these guys.
I know what the press is reporting about the Patriot Act, but I haven't read it myself. I don't trust the newspapers....they've been trying to nail Bush for years now and we know how honest the NY Times is.
I wonder if the total includes training new firemen and cops in the new york area. It's pretty much a lie when taken into context..
A convicted drug dealer should be sentenced do the time that is given to somebody who deals drugs. Somebody who is convicted of making chemical weapons (illegally) should do the time that goes with that offense. Different crimes, differnt times.
I seem to recall when one of the complaints against the government in this country was the government's ability to search anything they wanted without prior permission or notification. We kicked them Brits out 200+ years ago.
What stupid ass thought it'd be smart to start doing this again?
I, for one, am sick and tired of my civil liberties being destroyed for the sake of anti-terrorism. Why is it a good idea to let my doctor fork over records to the gov't and make it illegal to tell me about it? We all know that the systems out there get exploited. What'll happen next? You go to your doctor and get put on an anti-depressant... 10 years later, you apply for a gov't job, they pull your medical records, and you get denied the job because you were once a "psycho" on anti-depressants?
I'll gladly vote against anyone that's for this anti-rights bullshit
"It compiles, SHIP IT!" -Overheard at Microsoft's development lab
god Damn you clueless kneejerk conspiracy theorist fuckwads.
Why the fuck would I care if some jack ass who has a very dangerous methlab next door gets the jackboot in the face by the feds? I don't give a fuck HOW the feds nailed him. I don't care if they hired Gary Coleman to sneak up his arse and hide while recording enough data for the feds to Waco the low life...
Karma means nothing to me, so suck it...
Has anyone ever considered that the Patriot Act(s) might just be a defense mechanism for PNAC (Project for a New American Century)? The PNAC needed some large reason to forge the plan for Pax Americana - global leadership by the USA. The warning flags for the 9/11/01 attacks were ignored/squelched and with the attacks Bush had a reason for PNAC planning to be brought to fruition.
Now the Patriot Act(s) were developed for three purposes - Placate the press and public by showing the administration is 'getting tough on terrorists', FUD for the populace and crushing dissent/sedition. Seen any massive riots lately? Maybe it is apathy, maybe it is not wanted to be labeled a seditious terrorist. Want proof that the administration doesn't care about international terrorists getting into the US? How about Bush putting a one-year delay on the new 'secure' passport, how about the fact that anything can still enter the country covertly (drug prices gone up lately; must be the supply/distribution is safe). Bush is more worried about homegrown dissent than any international terrorist. Hell, with these closed-system voting machines he won't have any trouble winning a re-election and after that Jeb will be ready for eight years.
Welcome to the new American Century. Please check rights, freedoms, education, employment, pay, pension, food, water, air and life-as-you-knew-it at the door...
Here are some links you might want to follow...
PNAC article
PNAC homepage
Right the fuck on...
I guarantee the first time the feds kick in your neighbors door because of his environmentally friendly methlab you won't give a fuck how they caught him.
you'd think you tree huggin monkey fuckers would be pissed that the by product chemicals that he's dumping into the drains or the backyear (which are much worse than what the local refinery is kicking out) would matter to you, but your insane fear that the govt is looking to implant chips in your brains is clouding your judgement.
Put the tinfoil hat back on, sit back down and shut the fuck up..
Or go protest as a starbucks or something.
Karma means nothing to me, so suck it...
I wonder if the poster read the article where it said that the guy with the meth lab was charged under a new NC state law and not under the Patriot Act? So that really has nothing to do with the justice dept. or anybody outside of NC (although obviously it sucks for NC citizens running meth labs).
//m
The truth about Scientology, Xenu, and you: Operation Clambake
"The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" -Bush
"There is no teacher but the enemy."-Mazer Rackham
Its age old mass psycology.
The NAME may just be a label or "key" to logical minded people, but to the average person it is more than that. (50% below average + the average)
I bet even has the public SLOWLY learns about how bad it is, they still think those who oppose it are not patriotic. If names did nothing, they would not have pushed the name so much.
Acts/Laws should not be allowed to have any names.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
They just shout you down. It's like the democratic primary debate the black caucus had. Even with 99.9% of everyone on their best behavior, all it takes it one guy shouting at the top of his lungs to ruin a chance at discussion.
I don't like cigarettes, but I do agree with you about the level of harm. However, it should be interesting to show how out of hand the DoJ is getting.
In the USA they first came for the violent criminals and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a violent criminal. Then they came for those that don't hold Christian/Judea beliefs, and I didn't speak up because I am a believer. Then they came for the illegal-drug dealers and users, and I didn't speak up because I do not take or distribute illegal drugs. Then they came for the petty criminals and dissenters, and I didn't speak up because I am a good citizen and a loyalist. Then they came for me - and by that time no one was left to speak up.
Apologies to Pastor Martin Niemoller.
More Info from a CSPAN viewer:
Only 1 in the senate did their job to uphold etc...fienstien (spelling?)
However, Wellstone, being #1 on bush's enemy list (go look it up its a fact), was CLEVER and managed an ammendment that requires the Patriot Act to be renewed in so many years. (I think it was 2005)
He could tell his people he cripled it rather than make a worthless symbolic vote, while keeping the stupid masses thinking he was a "patriot".
Some democrats were in on this. Its not so simple, remember, they are pros, and they have teams of pros--many are lawyers. Its far beyond the retard US media.
Question is, which democrats were the ones that forced the others into such a position?
There were some republicans too. But fact is, GOP caved in years ago. DFL is going down next.
Brands are so important in the US, I doubt the public will ever THINK past them. Nader is painfully right 90% of the time. It still has not gotten bad enough yet.
After WWII was over, it was discovered in the records of the Gestapo that the responsible party was, in the opinion of the Gestapo officer who ran the investigation, was a lone nut.
Rather too late for Germany, of course.
There are quite a few people who have drawn parallels between the Reichstag fire and the 9/11 hijackings.
Tech Public Policy stuff
The problem is that it is being used as intended. It's just that the public and Congress were lied to as to what the intended effects are. I never believed that the PATRIOT Act was intended to stop terrorism.
Tech Public Policy stuff
And I put a bullet into their jackbooted asses because I didn't buy into the bleeding liberal anti gun lobby gun banners who wanted to get my guns because "terrorists might get them" or "it was for the children."
It's OK to lie when you are a liberal left wing Demokrat.
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
Sure, I'll accept "It's OK to lie when you are a liberal left wing Demokrat." if you accept that Bush is fully responsible for every death attributable to the WTC attacks since he has hid behind executive privledge to get out of testifying during the 9/11 congressional probes.
Bush is a treasonous coward and is destroying the integrity of the executive branch of the US government.
Liberals won't disarm US citizens any more than republicans would show favor to human life over corporate profit.
Its about time we gave control back to King George. Even if the last King George had a brain; it serves us right for breaking away from britan!
Open Minds Teach Both Sides of the Issues
l
http://www.strengthsandweaknesses.org/index.htm
Your treasonous comments against Our Beloved President have been noted.
You are all under arrest.
We know who you are.
We know how to find you.
You cannot escape.
Turn yourselves in to the nearest FBI office, it'll go easier on you in the long run.
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur (anything said in Latin sounds important)
I didn't say republikans didn't lie they have it down to almost an art form. I didn't say Ace Bush wasn't a total lieing sack of shit which he is. Given that liberal left wing demokrats seem to get a free ride on truthfulness and they dominate the media I simply point that out. Must have struck a nerve in you. To bad it's my sig I'll keep it.
It's OK to lie if you are a liberal left wing Demokrat.
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
That same logic was what got us Prohibition. Which did very little to stop the consumption of alcohol, but it did a lot to get organized crime established here.
Now, which is the worse problem?
#1. Drinking?
#2. Organized crime?
I'll take a bunch of drunks over the Mafia any day.
Our current drug laws aren't doing anything to cut consumption. Instead, we're funding the Mafia and the gangs.
THC has no known lethal dose. Rats always survive regardless of how much you feed them.
ha ha, yeah
Just for kicks I browse Slashdot with +6 to troll posts
Man, there's an awful lot of garbage what gets posted here
I wish GameFAQs had an enlightened moderation system too..
The sitting President does have a huge effect on the economy. Mostly by determining:
#1. what will be taxed
#2. how high those taxes will be
#3. what the tax money will be spent on
We've recently seen gains in the economy. But that was mostly due to increased military spending by the government. Those are not sustainable.
The President can influence the people spending money on the markets by showing them that he has the economy under control or by showing them that the economy is out of control and heading for record deficit levels.
If it weren't for those green party assholes and... well... Florida, Gore would be the president now.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Just remember, don't change horses in mid-stream. On election day, re-elect the President!
Greed is now God.
The notion of greed is completely subjective. Is it greedy to own a 27" television when you could have bought a 25" television and given the difference to the poor?
All anyone cares about is themselves and their possesions.
As if blanket assertions like this were ever helpful.
Hell that's what's killing the American Family.
I expect doom-and-gloom statements about the "health of the American family" from Fundamentalist Christians. Now Leftists invoke it as well. Yet another way that I see Fundamentalist Christianity and Leftism as the similar religions with different gods.
Let's see, why do mommy and daddy work 80 hours a week each?
Perhaps the American corporate culture has something to do with working its employees harder. It's completely understandable in this cruddy economy. I can think of several people who are in this situation right now.
Man that's so worth it isn't it? I mean you get to have your kids driven to school by the nanny in the new Lexus. Isn't that the American Dream?
Leftists (and college kids) often whine about this mythical person who meets the following qualities:
1. Has no interest in parenting their children
2. Has no interest in their marraige
3. Has no interest in hobbies
4. Has no interest in friendships
5. Has an overwhelming, extreme interest in buying things to impress strangers, make up for low self-esteem, or make up for small penis size
I think this person is a boogeyman; i.e., this person does not exist except in the argument where his/her (mythical) existence is beneficial to the argument.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
This really goes to show how little our constitution means, 4th Amendment be damned.
But the thing that really frightens me is this... most people are so turned off to politics that things like the Patriot Act slip under the radar. What's worse... a majority of those that actually are involved in our political system choose to be a Democrat or Republican, as if they're their only options.
In 2004, I want G.W. Bush to get out of my government. Sadly, it'll have to be done with a Democrat, and it shouldn't be that way.
After skimming the surface of the German government, I can't help but wonder how different America would be if several parties were in control, not just two. Any Germans care to enlighten me?
So your answer is to do nothing at all. Sorry, we had 8 years of that with B.J. Clinton (which is why we have to deal with this issue today).
Hello Folks, Please check out my Journal for some breaking information until 3:20 PST Sept 14th.
They don't give a damn, because we never hold them to account. What, really, should we expect?
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
This came through on a list I subscribe to:
:
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The Singularity is closer than you think
Quant
Vote Libertarian! We love freedom so much, we'll give it all to whoever pays most. This is different from the current order how?
The point he was making was that any substance known to man "has the capability to cause death or serious injury"
So basically, the law, as written, is unenforceable and everyone prosecuted under it will win on appeal.
Yes, it's unconstitutionally vague.
Yes, they'll get off on appeal - after spending time in prison and maybe dying in prison like that priest.
since:
taleban == terrorism
and
taleban == drug-dealing
it logically follows that:
drug-dealing == terrorism
(I'm joking btw...)
A great time to live in the USA.
...
sigh
Irrelevant news and morons using moderation to mod down what they disagree on. 2018 resolution: so long.
Ain't gonna happen, even if things go even worse in Iraq; we'd pull out after doing a half-assed job setting up an unstable government and then publically declare the mission a glowing success. Sort of like Afghanastan. The will is just not there for a draft. I'm not sure I'd assume that Bush isn't crazy enough to consider it. But I'm sure his advisors know that if they instituted a draft, the Democrats would win the next several elections.
"Republicans should all be shot."
What if they start shooting back?
It's OK to lie if you are a liberal left wing Demokrat.
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
Do u really think that the untrained citizens of the US with a few guns could go up against the US military and come out on top?
-- Karma Karma Karma Karma, Karma Chameleon - Boy George
Good, old American Crusade Trading Cards - they have one the just hits the spot... :D
USA Patriot & Homeland Security: Acts of Freedom, Land of Liberty
+++ MELON MELON MELON +++ Out of Cheese Error +++ redo from start +++
Yes I do
A bunch of Iraqis ar doing it right now without much problem.
It's OK to lie if you are a liberal left wing Demokrat.
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
I remember being told as a kid that USSR and USA were so far at the opposite extremes that they were very similar - highest ratio between highest and lowest wages, nationalist indocrination in schools, persecution of political opponents, (this was around McCarthy), both fighting through heavily arming minor nations in the cold war manoeuvering, etc. Then both nations changed for the batter , but the USA seems to be heading back to a state of terror and secret police. By the way - in the war against terror, I hope you're sending less money to the IRA than you used to....
***You learn something Every day. And then you die.***
This is not an anti-US rant. I've known a few Americans and liked and disliked them just as much as someone from any other country.
Frankly, however, I am scared shitless of the USA. I will not visit there for any reason as long as the current government is in power and as long as those draconian laws are in place, which is a pity, as there's lots to see there.
I don't know why the current US government is so hell bent on alienating all its friends in the world, and alienating them it is, and it will have more enemies when the UK's Blair finally steps down at the latest after the next UK elections. Even the Aussies are puzzled by Howards towing the line and misleading the public. I fully expect thta the rift between "Old Europe" and the USA will only grow with time as the US continues to seek military engagements and fealty from countries that have no wish to give up their independance.
The only thing I can see as to why these governments (Bush,Blair and Howard) have remained high popularity ratings is because they all appeal to the need for security and patriotic hearts of their countrymen. The almost incessant warnings of terror acts in the last couple of years has well served to make the population scared as hell and to believe that their government is looking after them. Its become almost a Pavlovian response:Poll ratings down, sound the terror warning bells again!
As for the bugger facing life in prison for making speed, why the hell has the FBI still not found the culprit responsable for the 2001 Anthrax attacks, two years ago?
Unless that was part of the Plan(TM), so to speak?
...as much as the Republicans do.
By attempting to take away our right to bear arms, by creating a whole class of people that is content with sucking on the big teet of the gubmint by telling them how terrible life is for them and that they should stay on welfare and or wait for everything to finally be put into their lap.
The Democrats have created more anti-freedom and anti-self-determination laws then any other political party within the US. Sure, the Republicans created welfare, but the Democrats are the ones that perverted welfare into the abortion of a system it is today. Welfare today does little to nothing to instill people with the power and internal strength to make their lives better.
The Democrats are also some the staunchest supporters of anti-citizen laws like the Mickey Mouse Copyright extension act... They stood strong next to the Digital Millenium screw the Citizen Act.
The Republicans are just about as bad. They provide to much power to corporations at the expense of American workers of all levels of skill, education and income. They attempt to wrap everything up in the flag of Capitalism and Free-Market. All they do is cover up justice with an expensive kitchy curtain.
While I can't stand behind everything the Green and Libertarian parties stand for. They appear to be more for the citizens then the other two parties have become. Personally, I would rather us not have political parties, just like our founding fathers intended.
I advocate and end to the political machinations of the party structure. Either they end the parties entirely or they provide ample time to all the rest of the parties. The Green and Libertarian candidates for president should have been provided with equal time at the Presidential debates.
I just hope that one day all of this madness in our political system will be washed away and we can once again be lead by a government that is by the people for the people.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
These cases will be challenged in the courts and many of them will be overturned. We should be able to craft a reasonable bill that prevents these kinds of abuses while loosening up the restrictions that made terrorism detection virtually impossible. Surely we've got the smarts for that?
We, the programmers of the world have the smarts for that. Congress, on the other hand, apparently does not.
Like what I said? You might like my music
Damn! If only I was purple, I'd be rich!
-Graham
Hrm, who was in office when the DMCA's sunset got kicked in the ass?
Gee, Bush...
So what anyway, all the partizan crap is bullshit, let's just get the crap that needs to get done - DONE!
...Or at least they apparently are illegal to manufacture in the state of North Carolina. I'd say that cigarettes, if anything, is a "substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and contains toxic chemicals.
Which is the definition of a chemical weapon of mass destruction.
Start prosecuting, fellas!
--Stephen
Did you ever notice that *nix doesn't even cover Linux?
I work in Huntsville, Alabama. Downtown is a monument noting that in late October of 1813 Andrew Jackson (US $20 Bill) camped there on his way to the battle at Horseshoe Bend In Dadeville Alabama at the nothern edge of the little town is a monument to General Coffee and the 50,000 Cherokee Indians he brought with him to help in the battle at Horseshoe Bend.
This all might not seem important until you realize that the war noted in these monuments was exactly like the current one. Religious Extremists (Manito) with assistance of a major Colonial Foreign Power (England) attempted to reign a terror campaign with warfare against Amercans. There were entire Counties in Tennesse and Kentucky completely devoid of human life after these terrorists stuck. So Tennesse struck back. In the north Tyler had struck at Fallen Timbers and Prophet's Town Indianna in 1810/1811 for the same reasons. In Alabama it was the Lower Creek Indians. They believed in killing anyone who used the modern technology. Even and Indian could be killed if he used a steel plow! Just like the Islamic Extremists the problem was that their culture was so unable to provide for their people that it was collapsing.
The battle was won by the Army of the State of Tennessee and their Northern Alliance of Cherokee Indians. Unfortunately the defeat did not stop the terrorism. What stopped the terrorism was the development of "Citizenship." They in the words of a song from the times "...said their prayers with their shotguns cocked." Armed and very dangerous Citizens stopped the terrorism.
The lesson for today is unmistakable. We are in the same mess and the solution will be the same. We have to defend our country. Unfortunately this runs cross purposes to the "Patiot Act" and Ashcroft. It also shows exactly what happened on 9/11/2001. Bluntly we saw the rise of government suppression of Citizenship to the point that Mohammad Atta and his gang were repeatedly able to assault the US Citizens and the Citizens were restrained from doing anything about them and the US government refused to do anything about them. We will only see the danger grow in size and certainty until the day comes when Americans return to their Citizenship duty and kick these government looters of our rights out of the way.
On September 11, 2001 we were not attacked because of our Civil Rights or Freedom. We were attacked because our government had dismantled our defenses which are native to us. Like a person with AIDS we had no immunity and the pathogen showed up and took the opportunity. I am not discounting the need for Military or other Action. I am saying that Citizenship is essential to success.
This lesson is just as essential to Iraqi as American. If any people on earth would live free and safe the first obligation is to Citizenship. Allowing the luxury of a Professional Police Force to handle this does not diminish this. Allowing the Professionals to displace this is fatal. The USA had plenty and good laws to handle terrorist and gangsters before 9/11. We have too many now! We might have needed to "Tweek" here and there but generally we are forgetting that the constitution and the Bill of Rights are not the problem. We are forgetting that we as America arose in a bath of terrorism. Our own Declaration of Independence references the terrorism supported by the English King. America developed because of our respect of rights and probably the most important of these was the rights and duties of Citizenship.
The Bush Administration people are "Counter Revolutionaries" against the American Revolution when they push the Idea that relieving us of our rights is the solution.
Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
All I hear on this thread is "Bush sux0rz - vote Democrat" or "Dems are just as bad - vote Libertarian/Green"
What I want to know is if anyone has any solutions to the problems at hand?
Democrats, what is YOUR plan to fight the war on terror? How do YOU plan to keep another 9/11 from happening? If the PATRIOT Act was so bad, then why did the majority of Democrats vote for it?
While I'm at it, what is YOUR plan to stimulate the economy? What is YOUR plan to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan?
Quit complaining and start coming up with solutions.
I do see shades of 1984 in recent events. If the Democrats can't come up with anything more than complaining, Bush will beat Dean (or whoever else gets the nomination) in 2004 like Reagan crushed Mondale in 1984.
The amount of paranoia and blind hatred way surpasses the paranoia and blind hatred the right had with Clinton.
That explains the overwhelming Republican voice behind a Clinton impeachment for lying about blowjobs which only hurt maybe three people, and the lack of a Democratic voice behind a Bush impeachment for lying about WMDs in Iraq, which has started a war that has killed hundreds of American servicemen and thousands of Iraqi civilians...
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
One of the things you seem to be missing in these arguments is the right to due process. It sucks being arrested for one crime when you committed another (less serious) crime.
The meth lab is not a terrorist unit. It just isn't. It is against the law, but not a terrorist activity to make drugs. Now, using the patriot act to convict the guy for terrorism when he was cooking up drugs is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Once any means justifies the end of putting criminals in jail, the whole judicial system crumbles, because we have to try to avoid putting innocent people in jail. The whole legal system is skewed toward this goal. Move away from that, and we haven't really won anything.
Languages aren't inherently fast -- implementations are efficient
Good point!!!
-- Karma Karma Karma Karma, Karma Chameleon - Boy George
So you recognize the problem, understand the deeper issue underlying it, and empathize with the position. Yet you won't stand on your conviction because the system is biased against honest voters. But you fail to mention what you are doing to change the system. Are you lobbying your Congress-critters to change the electoral method? Are you informing yourself of the alternatives (such as Condorcet voting) so that you can educate others to do the same? Until then, save your breath.
I consider myself a relatively outspoken advocate of electoral reform. Trying to push such a change through using the current system is going to be very difficult, possibly as difficult as electing a third party under the current system. It's a chicken-or-the-egg problem, but one of them has got to happen. I encourage everyone to do both: vote your conscience regardless of how "winnable" the candidate is, and promote electoral reform to anyone who will listen. Until more people see there is a problem, and are shown how to fix the problem, we're stuck with the problem. The problem doesn't solve itself by voting for the same ol' establishment Duopoly candidates.
Constitutionally Correct
well everyone warned you Americans. But hey what do you expect when you elect a man like George W. Bush...oh wait did I say ELECT...ooops
Has anyone else noticed the marked militarization of the police in recent years? The police organizations are slowly trying to seperate themselves from "civilian" society into their own martialed code enforcement agencies. It's not even a covert effort anymore. I have been to some police training courses where they refer to US, everybody else, as civilians. The fucking police are civilians too, and they need to be reminded of that.
Additionally, the various police agencies are being infused with termininology like tactical assault, infiltration, war on drugs, war on terrorism, which are all just police actions. NOT military actions. And they go to training camps where they wear camoflage or black clothes, just like the real military. It gives them a feeling that they are seperate and maybe even a little superior to everyone else.
The government is forbidden to use the military for domestic law enforcement by Posse Comitatus, but it seems to me that they are doing all they can to convert civilian law enforcement into some pseudo-military security force. It really bothers me that there is a growing feeling of us and them in the police.
I don't have a problem with most individual police officers, but I do have a problem with the higher organization's policies that aim to seperate and militarize. If you think it all sounds crazy, go to a police training course or something, or just listen to a group of officers talk, or watch for police in army fatigues or their current favorite, the black tactical-ware (not kidding, some call it that).
Sounds more like you are describing the non existent Iraqi regime.
But by the 3rd year of the President's term, the effects should be visible. That would be over a year since the first decisions had been implemented. Certainly by the end of the 3rd year.
I think you're right about the deficit and investor confidence.
A reasonable relaxation of Arrow's definition of the IIAC criterion would allow Condorcet to pass.
Constitutionally Correct
"Who was in office when the DMCA was signed? Bill Clinton. Umm, what party was he a member of again?"
Clinton was basically spineless. A true Democrat should be opposed to DMCA in particular, and globalization, in general. But good luck finding a true Democrat anymore. The party is now facing the awful reality that in order to compete with the Republicans, they have to sell out America's interests just as much.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Umm... the Democratic party is in the pockets of the media companies (78% of almost $40 mil went to the Democratic party). Who do you think was the major push behind this? Who do you think gets the MOST money from the movie picture association??? In 2000 Hillary Clinton was the highest senator with donations from the Movie/Tv/Music industry (2nd overall, Al Gore got the most).
Not sure where you got the idea that the two parties were ever different on the money thing. For as long as there have been to parties they both have been getting money, it's really not something new (I guess the Repubs have been more vilified over the years for it though)
Ah, the fun begins. The polics and firemen increase in NY is demanded, even required, as a response to 9/11 and for "homeland (in)security". The states (like NY) come out and "do their duty" by going for more cops and firemen to now cover their mandates under "homeland security". The Fed Gov, under the feeble-minded, AWOL, drunk Shrub DOESN'T pony up its promised money (yep, a spending increase demanded for homeland security but handed off to the states as an UNFUNDED MANDATE). The states go into debt OR they fail to meet their homeland security requirements. They can either hike up taxes on regular people, all the while the Fed cuts taxes on those least in need of more money in their pockets...and less likely to do anything beneficial with it... The Fed hikes up the one and only form of spending that Conservatives/Republicans love, nay, LUST - military spending. If there is no reason for a huge-ass military spending increase, by gawd, they'll CREATE one by invading some wild-ass, inoffensive (to our direct security) country (Iraq).
As a bonus, CUT social safety nets - which in fact, saved the US from a true and utter collapse into either communism or fascism after the big stock market crash and economic failure of unregulated capitalism in the 20s - at the same time. So, the superwealthy crony friends of those in office get lots of pointless money, the middle class and poor get laid off, or have their overtime pay threatened, see their real income drop year after year, see their schools fall apart, and then get to look at a full-on, directed collapse of one of the things they were counting on when they could finally retire...Social Security, which is being gutted/borrowed from to pay for Iraq and more military adventures. Add to this loveliness the utter degredation of the only planet we have by pushing for major deforestation, elimination of as many species as possible, increasing the amount of water and air pollution as much as possible, and you get a real, nice Republican "paradise". Sign me up!
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
It's difficult for me to get up much sympathy for people driving around with pipe bombs, or folks running a meth lab (a possible kablooey but a useless drug anyhooo) in their house. Lock 'em up and throw away the key. They are a hazard to my life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
Ain't like they're an asset to the general community or are working on any opensource projects in their spare time.
And you can't fault the local gendarmes for using as big a stick as possible against such goofballs.
The government is watching the citizenry and snooping about. Remember the 60s? Plenty of us silverbacks with fat files at the FBI. Something comes to mind about "..eternal vigilence".
Just vote for me in 2008 ;) here's where I stand
"Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
Do us all a favour, drown your children and pop some/alot of sleeping pills please.
There isn't a bit of difference between the parties when it comes to the economy or social developement,... other then bragging rights. Bush made some hard choices and saved the US economy, Bush made some very large concessions and smoothed out some of the wrinkles from 911 (to be specific-New York), Bush helped create a new agency (very expensive-and likely will be invaluable in the next few years) which went against party policy but was necessary. The rest of the expenses went evenly to both members of camp who don't mind feed off of tragidy and death.
It is a known fact that one full cup of regular table salt is a lethal dose. And those terrorists at Morton crank out hundreds of tons of this "weapon" every year.
Large corporations aren't considered to be terrorists by our Federal Government. Only individuals and smaller groups could possibly be terrorists.
Perhaps one day, only large corporations will have rights.
Why don't they operate counter season to the mens equivelent. Real money, real coverage, and so on. There's a large baseball and hockey gap every year that could easily be filled.
NAFTA. Bosnia. The Military-Industrial Complex. Any of these ring any bells? Clinton was a better servant to the Establishment because we had the distracting sideshow/blow. W lacks subtlety.Every large-scale conflict (and lots of small ones) in the entire history of america is powered by the need to 'Open Markets' or otherwise protect the priviledges of the rich.
O~ Him that studies revenge keeps his own wounds green. -- Francis Bacon
Instead of aguing over who to vote for, how about a few more Americans get off their arse and actually VOTE? In Australia voting is compulsory, and while we may not be able to get the best guy in all the time, we can at least keep the worst guy out. The "silent majority" actually have a voice here....
sustainable living
We agree about one fundamental point.
:-)
<i>the offence I feel when seeing pure crap being passed off for the truth.</i>
The bill of rights is what i condsider truth. Every person should DESERVE and in fact, DEMAND those rights. Anyone who EVER disagrees with that (regardless of the "means to and end" argument) is, in my opinion, gravely wrong.
I would vote libertarian if I thought they had a chance. If a bill ever came up in congress to enact "runoff voting", I would dedicate my weekends to supporting their effort because I believe that the current system DISABLES those who disagree with the current system. Either you vote "slightly right of center" or "slightly left of center" (or you buy into their two or three KEY issues, where they push slightly more outwards, ignoring the REST of policy).
I think I would vote libertarian... except for the fact that I'm in favor of strict corporate legislation. Individuals should be absolutely free according to the bill of rights. Corporations and the government shoud not, in my opinion because they are not people with feelings. They are simply money-making entities which shield the people behind them from semi-illegal and usually immoral actions.
hehe sorry for the rant- you got me going
Stewey
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
He wasn't a politician...
Food supplies cannot be allowed to be subject to a capitalistic failure ala enron!!!!!
State legeslaturs are somebody you can know. Usually, they are elected from a county or group of counties...you the voter can make them be accountable to you. Thereby making them get the federal rep by the nuts when YOU the voters want!. The point is that nation offices have been seperated from any accountability to local governments. The Senate was that organization. If senetors were appointed by states, the state could immedetaly recall them if they erred, no voting necessary! It would also help curb federal control and much of the crazy Sh!t that's been going on lately.
Exactly, they are already having problems with "terrorist" in Iraq...terrorists being disfranchised iraquies that want the old guard back. Funny how that "terrorist" word slips. If the US was to win such a war, the measures passed to KEEP control would be intolerable. We would succeede where Hitler failed...remember the US has NEVER, EVER been a tolerant state. The pilgrams came here to burn witches and punish cathloics...remember that! The bill of rights has always been enforced with guns by the feds over the states...now the feds think it's "inconvienent".
Patriot Act II will never pass, and Patriot Act I will expire in 2005 (its extension will never be approved). As someone pointed out, even many of your beloved Democrats supported the original Patriot act. The few nutjob Republicans that want to try to push this to the next step will be shooed away. Frankly, Hatch is an insane creton...and if everyone doesn't know it, those that count politically do.
or will you be voting for the lesser of thoes two evils this time around?
Don't forget: voting for the lesser evil is still a vote for EVIL. Vote for the candidate that best reflects your values, no matter what their party. You will not change the situation by continuing to vote for the status quo.
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Ideology is for ideots.
Ideology is for ideots.
Democrats...Republicans...sell your soul to one special interest group or another. I vote republican, the rich get perks, and we end up with a police state. I vote democrat, and the only difference is who gets the perks, which special interests benefit, and which of my rights are violated, undermined, and eliminated.
So long as this nation operates on a system where legislation is a product of money, this will not change no matter who you elect. No candidate that hasn't sold his soul has a chance of getting elected because advertising works.
It can be fixed - maybe - but which puppet you elect is largley inconsequential on that front. It only effects the general direction of the erosion. Do you want morality outlawed? Or would you rather have a scrict set of moral behaviors legislated with huge penalties? Neither side is offering freedom.
Follow the money - break that, and you fix it. The problem is not WHICH party - it is that political power in this country is focused on "parties" in the first place. Does your vote matter? Really? Only if it is part of the largest herd of media-driven cattle at the time.
The heights of genius are only measurable by the depths of stupidity
It isn't like they've had nothing to do with it.
relevant messages about anything