I realize that 12 programmers writing code 80 hours a week, on one product is a nifty challenge for a tool as robust as OnSite , but honestly (and I'm not saying this in some sort of 'my crank if bigger than yours' type of way, as I'm sure to you your project is very intense) it's the same as some rich executive that hasn't used a computer sense the 70's saying 512k of RAM is all anyone will ever need.
If you plan on having really well done configuration management, you need a configuration management tool. ClearCase, Continuus/CM Synergy, PVCS (to some extent) are what you are looking for. I'm not advocating any of these, and I have a cheaper alternative I'll talk about later. If you're wondering, I am a CM administrator (thus my viewpoint may be a little more relevant than that of a manager who doesn't know how the tools works.) The original question was about concurrent development, and as such, doesn't deal at all with versioning, but more along the lines of lifecycle. Any one who has ever stepped out side of a VCS environment and into an actual CM environment can tell you about how a well planned life cycle can save your developers hours and hours of headaches just like the ones that you are dealing with now.
This is one field of software, where once your into it ($500k - $750k when you figure in man hours and software and hardware) it really hard to get out and put yourself into another system. We just moved from Continuus and the cost to get into that CM Tool was (after the accounting geek figured it) was almost 4 million. You have to think about things like rewriting code, and restructuring directories, and while your developers are doing that, they are not developing new code, and that costs the company money too. I say that to tell you that this was a massive project. We moved 14 products, 12 development teams, 1.24 million files (and that was without previous versions for history), and all from a home brew version control system on top of rcs. We were happy a penguins on a screensaver, when our company made us move to a CM(ish) tool of it's own again. (ooohhhh the joys of being acquired). The new relocation cost? 4 million.
If you want a really nice tool, you have to pay for it. There are no freebies out there. Save one. Perforce has a tool that is almost as robust as the big guys with out the fuss of four digit per user licensing fees. It's not free to use commercially, but they offer great deals for small shops, and OSD. And even the commercial licenses are not blown out of proportion that badly.
If you really want to do concurrent development (or parallel development, PD, as its called by professional grade tools) you need to invest in one of the big three, or the little CM tool that could. If you have a good life cycle and a tool that was built to handle PD, you will not have to post your CM questions to slashdot any more.
but for god's sake.... Please stop ranting about OnSite...
Okay, Fine... If you have a Sears, JCPenny, Target,etc... run down and tell them that you want to pay your CC bill. They will ask you for your card. Look in you wallet like you expect to find one, and then tell them that you have misplaced it. Then they will ask if you brought the bill with you. Then when you say, "that seems like a good idea, but I didn't", they will promoptly tell you that they are unable to get to your account number and apply the money until you show them two forms of ID to verify who you are. One of them has to be a Photo ID, and they didn't except my college photo ID, my SAM'S club ID, or my Gentlemans Club VIP membership card. Now I don't know how many forms of ID you carry in your wallet, but that mean I got to choose from my Drivers license, and my social security card. I choose neather, and drove home to get my last bill. But you get my point. If I had the number, they would have let me pay, but I didn't so they couldn't. Thus the need for ID to pay a bill.
exactly. I agree, but what about when you go into a store to pay your credit card bill, and the guy at the counter will not take your money because your spouse has the actual card. At that moment I was almost willing to give him my SSN and DL #'s. 'Course I didn't, but now I have a late fee.
Are you sure you guys where selling these? I have seen one of these in a local gun and knife shop. They had to put it in a glass case all on it's own because it was fairly fragile. Also the cost at this mall shop was ~$350, and the website has it for over 300. $10-$25 just seems a little low.
Just kidding... I'm with ya. I hate the whole idea. of course, i'm only allowed to have an opinion it the 0x9b32d bit is set true on my new smart card, so everything I say here is not that of my own.
But the only places I could think of needing to use it are
That's part of the issue. It starts out needing to be used there, and then the guy who cuts your hair wants to see it, then the magazine subscription company, and then people call your house at 3AM and try to sell you something based on your card. A agree with this poster you should have a long read. Then when you say "they would never do something like that", we can all say we told you so.
I love my JVC DVD+RW. And I haven't found a dvd unit yet that is not able to play the recorded ROMs. However, I have notice older players that had the layer switching problems, really take a long time to make the jump from one layer to the next, and my oldest DVD player (an APEX) doesn't even make an attempt.
This book was a very good read technicly. However, it's dry and we had to strugle to get through it. I just wish Tolkien had written books about crypto and secure software. They would have been more interesting that way. In the end, I recomend Building Secure Software.
remember this... if you can grow spare parts, and a couple can't have a child because they/she has a 'bad' uterus, why not just slap a new uterus in. Invent what is bound to be an extremly unpopular sugery called... "hysterectomy reversal". You want eggs? We got boxes of 10k for $32.95. Soon middle age men in a mid-life crisis could buy a that sexy, shiney, red heart that they have on the showroom floor. Lets comercialize it. I can see comercials on TV, You want to swing a bat like PlayerX? well call in the next 15 mins and you will also get the legs to kick like PlayerY. Price does not include S&H.
Really I love the idea. Allow me to tear my body to shreads, then buy new parts.
I am certinly not an eloquent slashdotter, but let me bend your ear(eye?) for a minute or two.
I smoke. I know that I will grow a nasty case of lumps on and in my lungs if I don't stop. (bare with me here.) I deserve to get what ever comes my way, but look at the development science like this.
I pay for insurance on my car in case I'm in a wreck. I warehouse keeps parts to replace my fenders. Time goes by, and I run over a couple of MS employees one day. Damage done, Insurance pays, warehouse ships parts, car gets fixed.
So back to my point. I smoke, I get lung cancer, Insurance pays, warehouse ships, body gets fixed.
(NOTE: I'm kidding about the selfish smoking thing) Really, Think about the kid that is born with a heart problem. Or the cop that gets shot in the line of duty and looses his lung(s). That is the real reason for this stuff. Not so that we can breed humans, but so that we can "manufacture" factory replacement parts. Besides everyone knows that the cheep after market parts never fit quite right.
(BTW: I'm all in favor of natural selection, but the point I'm trying to make here is that this isn't so that we can populate the earth)
But this product isn't about you. It's about Joe who just opened an insurance company in Idaho.
It's not going to try to be linux. It's going to try to be 'Not Windows'. The buzz will carry around the bix world that there is a new linux that works 'just' like microsoft. And while they are wrong, companies start to venture away from thier unatable, yet reliable windows installs.
Does that make sence? Lindow target market is not hackers, crackers, UNIX Sys Admins, or Kernel development. I hope that clears it up a little you seemed angry about it.
I understand your dependence on Interdev. Trust me I know what it is to not be able to remember all the function names. But There are up and coming IDE's that will be able to keep up with the features of Interdev. I understand that ximian is producing a.NET system for the linux systems, and ChilliSoft has had it possable to run ASP pages on linux for years now.
Microsoft coddles you, and while i'm not saying that is a bad thing, it does make you that much more dependent on them.
I used to get paid to write ASP pages. I use to use interdev, and the whole VStudio. Now I write my pages in Java, I use Eclipse, and I don't have to worry about nimda. Tomarrow, I'll be able to do the same on Lindows
it's impressive that a company (other than microsoft) can come to market with an operating system for this cost. It would seem like the product would be more expensive when you had to support it.
agree. People are much likely to donate money when you give them a token for their donation. Offering a 'something' for a donation, even when that 'something' is cheeper somewhere else, people are more willing to open their pockets. I give to PBS all the time, but I'm more when they offer me a 'free' PBS coffee mug or tee shirt.
If you delete your post, you break the link between your your partent's post, and the children's. If you where the only top level post, and you delete, it would leave the comments section blank.
If you are allowed to edit, it screws up more than just the integrity of the post. The post would then have to be RE modd'ed. I don't know if you have ever had moderation points or not, but to mei seems like a waste to file through threads that I've already read, just to find a good post and mod it up.
Also the integrity of the threads becomes unstable. If comments can be edited, then/. is then under more legal pressure (not that they would ever give in) to edit users comments themselves. Except for one time I can remember,/. has not edited users comments. The ability to do so could sway a court to force thier hand on the issue.
It doesn't really give you anything you don't already have. You have the ability to preview a post, and the ability to reply to a post... I can't see why you would need a special window to reach inside an old post. IMHO, this works better than that.
Good point. After I read the FAQ on the new system. I first thought was I need to get my hands of one of thier files. But to do that I would have to pay to use their service. Even if the quality of the music was very high (they say it may be of limited quality due to licence issues), the only reason I would bother with it, is if I just got over curious about thier crypto scheme. I really don't think they will have much to worry about.
Re:How come old technology keeps making headlines?
on
P2P in 2001
·
· Score: 1
if that is your idea of distributed computing, then that includes ANY software (not even unioned by software or use types) interacting with another peice of software. Not only an FTP client connecting to a FTP server, but a telnet client connecting to a HTTPD server.
The Technical term refers to one application using clock time of two or more proccessor, in two or more physically seperate machines.
That being said, While I disagree with your usage of the term, it's a free contry, and I don't want to impose any view help by any type of concortium on your vocabulary...
About the term(s) and it's meaning I digress, but as this story was about P2P, I have to agree with the moderation.
Re:How come old technology keeps making headlines?
on
P2P in 2001
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
How can this parent not be flamebait? This issue here is not distributed computing. Distributed computing implies that there will be more than more CPU in more than one PC, working together to accomplish a single result. P2P doesn't really match this pattern at all. P2P does two things on your box. it sends and it receives. Now, I'm not trying to over simplify the deal, but short of their own very special search/connect algorithm, these are a glorified FTP server/client combo apps. But they are not truly "distributed".
God bless'em for what they are, and what they have allowed me to see and hear. The reason this type of application is news worthy is because it is the absolute fastest, easiest, and most reliable way for me to access content on the net that I can't find via other channels. These apps make big news because it fell into the laps of every day citizens, and opened u[ a whole new world for them.
pointym5, do you see what I mean? No, wait. I don't care. your do elite for these things, I don't know why I bother.
Scopedog, have you ever seen a job posting in the breakroom (or whereever) that the bank was looking for a [insert job title here], and that title came with some really nice salary? I see it all the time. Most of them I wouldn't want, but the fact is, you need not apply for it unless you have a degree. Some say 'or equal experience', but you and I both know that if two people are up for that position, the knuckle heads in HR are going to pick the one with the degree. While I'm sure that there are GED CEO's everywhere, the fact remains, degrees DO help your carrier. Agree?
Ah the words of someone who isn't married a big borther type corperate whore. When you work for small organizations nobody expects you to be better than you are. But when you work for a huge organization (and you have to assume that you want to stay there for this example) nobody knows how good you are. Thus the degree is required to advance past one of those glass celings. It plays into the stereotype that 'there are a bunch of idiots with degrees, and they all get paid better than I do'. I work for the worlds third largest software mfr. (at least that is what it says at the quarterly confrence call) I don't want to leave the company to better my pay. Here, I get a company car, a REALLY nice benefits package, and my fair share of pay. Of course I want more, but I'm not going to quit here, and go to work for someone who will double my pay. The double in pay doesn't offer the security that this place does. That is why, even with experience, you need to have a degree. So that you can make more money, with out haveing to job hop every year or so.
Slashdot Mirror
ClearCase is not a VCS... it's a CMS...
read all about them here
Please, stop it already!!!!
I realize that 12 programmers writing code 80 hours a week, on one product is a nifty challenge for a tool as robust as OnSite , but honestly (and I'm not saying this in some sort of 'my crank if bigger than yours' type of way, as I'm sure to you your project is very intense) it's the same as some rich executive that hasn't used a computer sense the 70's saying 512k of RAM is all anyone will ever need.
If you plan on having really well done configuration management, you need a configuration management tool. ClearCase, Continuus/CM Synergy, PVCS (to some extent) are what you are looking for. I'm not advocating any of these, and I have a cheaper alternative I'll talk about later. If you're wondering, I am a CM administrator (thus my viewpoint may be a little more relevant than that of a manager who doesn't know how the tools works.) The original question was about concurrent development, and as such, doesn't deal at all with versioning, but more along the lines of lifecycle. Any one who has ever stepped out side of a VCS environment and into an actual CM environment can tell you about how a well planned life cycle can save your developers hours and hours of headaches just like the ones that you are dealing with now.
This is one field of software, where once your into it ($500k - $750k when you figure in man hours and software and hardware) it really hard to get out and put yourself into another system. We just moved from Continuus and the cost to get into that CM Tool was (after the accounting geek figured it) was almost 4 million. You have to think about things like rewriting code, and restructuring directories, and while your developers are doing that, they are not developing new code, and that costs the company money too. I say that to tell you that this was a massive project. We moved 14 products, 12 development teams, 1.24 million files (and that was without previous versions for history), and all from a home brew version control system on top of rcs. We were happy a penguins on a screensaver, when our company made us move to a CM(ish) tool of it's own again. (ooohhhh the joys of being acquired). The new relocation cost? 4 million.
If you want a really nice tool, you have to pay for it. There are no freebies out there. Save one. Perforce has a tool that is almost as robust as the big guys with out the fuss of four digit per user licensing fees. It's not free to use commercially, but they offer great deals for small shops, and OSD. And even the commercial licenses are not blown out of proportion that badly.
If you really want to do concurrent development (or parallel development, PD, as its called by professional grade tools) you need to invest in one of the big three, or the little CM tool that could. If you have a good life cycle and a tool that was built to handle PD, you will not have to post your CM questions to slashdot any more.
but for god's sake.... Please stop ranting about OnSite...
Okay, Fine... If you have a Sears, JCPenny, Target,etc... run down and tell them that you want to pay your CC bill. They will ask you for your card. Look in you wallet like you expect to find one, and then tell them that you have misplaced it. Then they will ask if you brought the bill with you. Then when you say, "that seems like a good idea, but I didn't", they will promoptly tell you that they are unable to get to your account number and apply the money until you show them two forms of ID to verify who you are. One of them has to be a Photo ID, and they didn't except my college photo ID, my SAM'S club ID, or my Gentlemans Club VIP membership card. Now I don't know how many forms of ID you carry in your wallet, but that mean I got to choose from my Drivers license, and my social security card. I choose neather, and drove home to get my last bill. But you get my point. If I had the number, they would have let me pay, but I didn't so they couldn't. Thus the need for ID to pay a bill.
and now i rest.
exactly. I agree, but what about when you go into a store to pay your credit card bill, and the guy at the counter will not take your money because your spouse has the actual card. At that moment I was almost willing to give him my SSN and DL #'s. 'Course I didn't, but now I have a late fee.
Are you sure you guys where selling these? I have seen one of these in a local gun and knife shop. They had to put it in a glass case all on it's own because it was fairly fragile. Also the cost at this mall shop was ~$350, and the website has it for over 300. $10-$25 just seems a little low.
geez! where did this guy come from!!!!
:)
you morbid radical
Just kidding... I'm with ya. I hate the whole idea. of course, i'm only allowed to have an opinion it the 0x9b32d bit is set true on my new smart card, so everything I say here is not that of my own.
:)
That's part of the issue. It starts out needing to be used there, and then the guy who cuts your hair wants to see it, then the magazine subscription company, and then people call your house at 3AM and try to sell you something based on your card. A agree with this poster you should have a long read. Then when you say "they would never do something like that", we can all say we told you so.
I love my JVC DVD+RW. And I haven't found a dvd unit yet that is not able to play the recorded ROMs. However, I have notice older players that had the layer switching problems, really take a long time to make the jump from one layer to the next, and my oldest DVD player (an APEX) doesn't even make an attempt.
Does anybody remember when analog biology was good enough?
This book was a very good read technicly. However, it's dry and we had to strugle to get through it. I just wish Tolkien had written books about crypto and secure software. They would have been more interesting that way. In the end, I recomend Building Secure Software.
remember this... if you can grow spare parts, and a couple can't have a child because they/she has a 'bad' uterus, why not just slap a new uterus in. Invent what is bound to be an extremly unpopular sugery called... "hysterectomy reversal". You want eggs? We got boxes of 10k for $32.95. Soon middle age men in a mid-life crisis could buy a that sexy, shiney, red heart that they have on the showroom floor. Lets comercialize it. I can see comercials on TV, You want to swing a bat like PlayerX? well call in the next 15 mins and you will also get the legs to kick like PlayerY. Price does not include S&H.
Really I love the idea. Allow me to tear my body to shreads, then buy new parts.
I am certinly not an eloquent slashdotter, but let me bend your ear(eye?) for a minute or two.
I smoke. I know that I will grow a nasty case of lumps on and in my lungs if I don't stop. (bare with me here.) I deserve to get what ever comes my way, but look at the development science like this.
I pay for insurance on my car in case I'm in a wreck. I warehouse keeps parts to replace my fenders. Time goes by, and I run over a couple of MS employees one day. Damage done, Insurance pays, warehouse ships parts, car gets fixed.
So back to my point. I smoke, I get lung cancer, Insurance pays, warehouse ships, body gets fixed.
(NOTE: I'm kidding about the selfish smoking thing) Really, Think about the kid that is born with a heart problem. Or the cop that gets shot in the line of duty and looses his lung(s). That is the real reason for this stuff. Not so that we can breed humans, but so that we can "manufacture" factory replacement parts. Besides everyone knows that the cheep after market parts never fit quite right.
(BTW: I'm all in favor of natural selection, but the point I'm trying to make here is that this isn't so that we can populate the earth)
hold on to that domain name... maybe vagisil will pick it up from you.
Agree...
But this product isn't about you. It's about Joe who just opened an insurance company in Idaho.
It's not going to try to be linux. It's going to try to be 'Not Windows'. The buzz will carry around the bix world that there is a new linux that works 'just' like microsoft. And while they are wrong, companies start to venture away from thier unatable, yet reliable windows installs.
Does that make sence? Lindow target market is not hackers, crackers, UNIX Sys Admins, or Kernel development. I hope that clears it up a little you seemed angry about it.
I understand your dependence on Interdev. Trust me I know what it is to not be able to remember all the function names. But There are up and coming IDE's that will be able to keep up with the features of Interdev. I understand that ximian is producing a .NET system for the linux systems, and ChilliSoft has had it possable to run ASP pages on linux for years now.
Microsoft coddles you, and while i'm not saying that is a bad thing, it does make you that much more dependent on them.
I used to get paid to write ASP pages. I use to use interdev, and the whole VStudio. Now I write my pages in Java, I use Eclipse, and I don't have to worry about nimda. Tomarrow, I'll be able to do the same on Lindows
it's impressive that a company (other than microsoft) can come to market with an operating system for this cost. It would seem like the product would be more expensive when you had to support it.
agree. People are much likely to donate money when you give them a token for their donation. Offering a 'something' for a donation, even when that 'something' is cheeper somewhere else, people are more willing to open their pockets. I give to PBS all the time, but I'm more when they offer me a 'free' PBS coffee mug or tee shirt.
this think i hear a patent pending artical coming on...
If you delete your post, you break the link between your your partent's post, and the children's. If you where the only top level post, and you delete, it would leave the comments section blank.
/. is then under more legal pressure (not that they would ever give in) to edit users comments themselves. Except for one time I can remember, /. has not edited users comments. The ability to do so could sway a court to force thier hand on the issue.
If you are allowed to edit, it screws up more than just the integrity of the post. The post would then have to be RE modd'ed. I don't know if you have ever had moderation points or not, but to mei seems like a waste to file through threads that I've already read, just to find a good post and mod it up.
Also the integrity of the threads becomes unstable. If comments can be edited, then
It doesn't really give you anything you don't already have. You have the ability to preview a post, and the ability to reply to a post... I can't see why you would need a special window to reach inside an old post. IMHO, this works better than that.
Good point. After I read the FAQ on the new system. I first thought was I need to get my hands of one of thier files. But to do that I would have to pay to use their service. Even if the quality of the music was very high (they say it may be of limited quality due to licence issues), the only reason I would bother with it, is if I just got over curious about thier crypto scheme. I really don't think they will have much to worry about.
if that is your idea of distributed computing, then that includes ANY software (not even unioned by software or use types) interacting with another peice of software. Not only an FTP client connecting to a FTP server, but a telnet client connecting to a HTTPD server.
The Technical term refers to one application using clock time of two or more proccessor, in two or more physically seperate machines.
That being said, While I disagree with your usage of the term, it's a free contry, and I don't want to impose any view help by any type of concortium on your vocabulary...
About the term(s) and it's meaning I digress, but as this story was about P2P, I have to agree with the moderation.
How can this parent not be flamebait? This issue here is not distributed computing. Distributed computing implies that there will be more than more CPU in more than one PC, working together to accomplish a single result. P2P doesn't really match this pattern at all. P2P does two things on your box. it sends and it receives. Now, I'm not trying to over simplify the deal, but short of their own very special search/connect algorithm, these are a glorified FTP server/client combo apps. But they are not truly "distributed".
God bless'em for what they are, and what they have allowed me to see and hear. The reason this type of application is news worthy is because it is the absolute fastest, easiest, and most reliable way for me to access content on the net that I can't find via other channels. These apps make big news because it fell into the laps of every day citizens, and opened u[ a whole new world for them.
pointym5, do you see what I mean? No, wait. I don't care. your do elite for these things, I don't know why I bother.
Scopedog, have you ever seen a job posting in the breakroom (or whereever) that the bank was looking for a [insert job title here], and that title came with some really nice salary? I see it all the time. Most of them I wouldn't want, but the fact is, you need not apply for it unless you have a degree. Some say 'or equal experience', but you and I both know that if two people are up for that position, the knuckle heads in HR are going to pick the one with the degree. While I'm sure that there are GED CEO's everywhere, the fact remains, degrees DO help your carrier. Agree?
Ah the words of someone who isn't married a big borther type corperate whore. When you work for small organizations nobody expects you to be better than you are. But when you work for a huge organization (and you have to assume that you want to stay there for this example) nobody knows how good you are. Thus the degree is required to advance past one of those glass celings. It plays into the stereotype that 'there are a bunch of idiots with degrees, and they all get paid better than I do'. I work for the worlds third largest software mfr. (at least that is what it says at the quarterly confrence call) I don't want to leave the company to better my pay. Here, I get a company car, a REALLY nice benefits package, and my fair share of pay. Of course I want more, but I'm not going to quit here, and go to work for someone who will double my pay. The double in pay doesn't offer the security that this place does. That is why, even with experience, you need to have a degree. So that you can make more money, with out haveing to job hop every year or so.
yeah, I noticed that too. The 8 doesn't play into a word like they do on licence plates. 'castr8','letsD8','pl8s', etc...
Now 'Jennir8' might work out nice, and maybe 'L8lee', but I don't see how it fits as used.
Could be a culture where girls get numbers, like baby boys might be called Jr. or III.
I'll email her and find out.