Slashdot Mirror
Fast Track to a CS Degree?
kyrex asks: "it's been 5
years since I've been working in the tech industry and I've make
great progress. My salary has grown by an annual rate of about 50%
and I'm currently working as a consultant in a leading consulting
firm. But not having received any formal education in Computer
Science, and therefore having no degree will be a problem for
further progress. I've considered many options but they all take
time: at least 3 years. I've been programming since I was 12
(I'm currently 24) and have read hundreds of CS books. I think that I
can easily complete a CS degree in 1 year. I want to know if there
are universities/institutions out there that offers computer
professionals like me a fast track to a CS degree that will be
recognised as such by other universities (so that I can continue
with a MSc afterwards)"
well for my cs degree i had to take the calculus sequence calc I, II & III. that's 1.5 yrs there, not to mention the other dependencies between classes; like post-calc stats i had to take after calc...
your best bet is to maybe CLEP your way out of some of the other classes if you're really bright and study hard. but doing it in 1 yr is un-reasonable.
it's still worth the effort i think...
I believe its called clept tests, where you can take a test on the course and if you pass it, you get credit for the course. Ask a university if you can clept tests and how many courses can you clept. Some schools have it where you have to go manditory for so many years or only allow you to clept so many classes, etc. Maybe you can find a school in your area that will let you clept most or maybe even just about every class and then you'd only need to go there for a couple of semesters to get your bachelors.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
If you have a proven track record and years of experience, that's what matters. Or at least that's what matter to companies that I'd want to work for.
Its unfortunate that so many people value pieces of paper with writing on them.
There are many great people out there hindered by this belief.
I dont think all companies and organisations within the industry are that judgemental. Most companies have theyre own rating system internally.
Stick with them.
Make yourself valueable to them.
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
Is a CCIE and CISSP enough or would a BS make all the difference in the world? Most grads I talked to don't have a good understanding of computers unless it's also their hobby which leads me to believe that a BS is just to get your foot in the door when you have no real talent.
50% a year for five years? So... let's say he started out at 40K... he's making well over 200K now? Jeezus, just how far does this guy wanna advance???
Skivvy Niner? Email me!
HEY! Look left just ONE MORE TIME!
Most schools make you take about 1.5-2 yrs of prereq clasess if you dont allready have a degree in a non-related field. The ones that dont that have come up require you to be intensifyingly bright (ACT 32+, high iq, etc.).
There is definetly more to a CS degree than simply being able to program. Other courses in the arts, sciences and languages are usually required. The point of a CS degree is not to produce programmers; it is produce well rounded students who can apply their knowledge to more fields than just computer programming. If you want a quick and easy degree just go to some kind of trade school.
I have the perfect solution. I got it in email the other day and they will just give you the degree! It is only a couple thousand and it says that it will make you rich!
I will forward the spam to you.
Why do you want the degree? Do you want more money, better job security, to move to management? Are you unhappy enough with where you're going that you want to invest the time to do something else? Or do you just want it because you feel like you missed out because you didn't get it?
I'm in a similar position, but I like what I'm doing, and while more money is cool, there are better ways for me to do it than spending lots of time sitting in a class "learning" stuff I already know. I don't think I'm going to go back to school unless I'm switching careers.
People are never as simple as their stereotypes. This applies equally to Christians, Muslims, and Emacs-lovers.
If you already have a Bachelor's degree then you should just start working on a Master's. It doesn't really matter what your Bachelor's degree is in, but it may mean that you need to take a bunch of prerequisite courses. Another piece of advice....I wouldn't try to hurry through a CS program. You don't realize how much you don't know until you start taking the classes. While still a young field, computer science has come a long way which means you get to learn from many other's discoveries and mistakes. It would be naive and arrogant to think that just because you've been programming for a long time that you can speed through the education. This is from experience. I, too, had been programming since I was 12 (I'm 29) and when I started down the path of my CS education I thought I could breeze throught it. I was wrong and I glad I was. I now have Master's in CS and even though it took me a long time I wouldn't trade it for anything. Good luck!!!
...companies certifications ?
I guess an SAP-certiufied consultant, or a Java-certified developper or an Oracle DBA or whatever else whose company could afford the short but intensive training costs could show quite a worthy piece a paper to a company willing to hire him for specific purposes...
There are also company who claim they'd pay the costs of a complete university degree (MBA, for example) to their best employees, that's why until you actually know what you expect I'd advice you to just impress your chiefs.
BTW, if you are willing to relocate in foreign countries, then I agree you *need* at least a Bachelor to obtain the work VISA.
Trolling using another account since 2005.
Some universities have programs where you can get credit for life experience. Typically you have to submit a proposal, write papers describing how you learned from life experience, and that sort of thing. You can't get a full degree that way, but will take some semesters off of your education.
I'm in the same boat as you are, right now.. I have 3 semesters to go towards a CS degree, but I'm working right now at a consulting firm. A degree is good to have, and I'm sure I've done some things that will count towards life experience.. my current job, past internships, etc.
I can't stress enough how much the core CS classes have helped me. I have a much better understanding of data structures, algorithms, software engineering, etc. than I would have if I'd taught myself those subjects reading books. You may be a different type of learner - I'm just going from personal experience, but I wouldn't skip too much of the core CS. Intro to programming courses don't matter, but don't cheat yourself out of a solid CS theory foundation.
Also, depending what school you go to and what you are planning to do after you graduate, you should think about physics/math requirements. My feeling is that they are outdated and shouldn't be required - some CS programs are still taught as if every grad is going straight into academic research, where these things are of course necessary. In many other careers CS could lead to, you won't ever touch that calc book again.
You might SOL on getting done in 12 months. At best >3 years is what it will take for a bachelors of CS. Just about any accredidated (sp?) school will require non-CS stuff like 2 semesters Physics, Chemistry, history, and the like.
But there are some distance learning stuff that some schools are developing, which might be good and easy to get done quickly, depending on who's giving it.
Beware those distance leraning programs where there's no human interaction (ie, an entire computer based course). I once took a short Java course through one of those - lousy and full of errors. If you were asked to enter some missing text, liek the "String [] args" in the main() sig, using "String[]" as opposed to "String []" (note the space) gets you marked incorrect, not to mention they were full of syntax errors. (Coincidentally, the course was given through a Java-applet)
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
If you've got the technical skills, maybe you should consider English?
I've been working in the tech industry and I've make great progress.
But what's a liberal arts degree worth anyway!?
My Karma was at 49, then they switched to words. All that work for nothing!
its been mentiond here time and time again, but computer *science* is not just coding... obviously i dont know exactly what you do for a living, but it seems unlikely that you've been exposed to algorithmic theory, ai, graphics, systems theory, etc etc to the extent that most universities would consider adequate for granting you a degree.
that being said, if you're smart you may very well be able to blow through such classes without too much trouble, but this still takes time. bottom line, i think expecting to receive a b.a or b.s. in computer science in under 2 or 3 years respectively is unreasonable.
The problem probably won't be the CS classes, if you are a solid programmer already. However, the problem will be the assorted other classes you have to take.
A CS degree (or any degree, for that matter) is not like a certification: it doesn't simply show mastery of one thing, but it demonstrates formal education in several areas, including critical thinking, math, communications (written and verbal), etc., with a specialization in one area (in your case, Comp Sci). You may be a stud programmer, but you will still have to take English, Math, some other basic requirements and some electives. 1.5 years is unreasonable, unless you are going for an Associate's degree, which I wouldn't recommend - it will probably be worthless given your experience.
Having said that, go ahead and spend the time getting your degree. Ignore the people that are sure to be posting ignorant crap about how "I wouldn't want to work at a place that values degrees!! Its just a piece of paper!" Those are, in all likelihood, people that couldn't hack it in college due to a serious lack of social skills, motivation, work ethic, whatever. The basic fact is that in order to advance in the majority of the organizations out there, you have to have some sort of degree.
In all likelihood, you can get your firm to pay for you to get your degree at some local university. Why not take advantage of it and do it right instead of trying to find some way to rush through it?
I don't think you survived the dot-com boom unscathed because you spent six years in college, you were just in the right place at the right time. Don't you think it's a little arrogant to assume that everyone with a degree will get to keep their job and those without them won't? There are people without degrees who are far more talented than you may ever be, and I'm saying that without even knowing you, which is ballsy but justified. :)
"It's here, but no one wants it." - The Sugar Speaker
There's no traditional university that does this. In fact, its not possible to do it in a year. You need 130+ credits to get a CS degree. Maybe in 3 years if you are dedicated, and can work
I really wish there was a place where you could take university quality CS classes in a program geared for working adults that didn't require you to take english, history, or whatever. I don't know of one, however.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
I just got an email offering Bachelors, Masters, and PhDs WITHOUT spending time in a classroom, because it's based on professional experience!!!
Seriously, 1 year is an awefully short period of time, and I would think you would really loose out on a lot of good classes.
Being in the same situation you're in, but having the benefit of following my friends throughout thier CS studies, I would have to say that I'm a lot less optimistic than you.
While you probably already know Universities don't subject you to much to the technology, you can really emerse yourself deeply in the theory.
My advice: If you really want to get the most out of a degree, put some good time in it and specialize in 2-3 related areas, while going for your Masters. Become THE authority in those 2-3 areas, and have the papers to back up your assertions.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
Either
A. University of Arizona.
Everything is done over the Web there.
B. Talk to your local Uni, and see if you can't work something out with the CS prof.
Do the three to four years just like everyone ...
else. Sheesh, some people think that the world
gives a rats arse about how 'special' they think
they are
No, this is not trolling or flamebait.
Penguin Kicka.
- Did my degree in 3 years, graduated at 26 and have never looked back. Yes, I thought the degree
didn't teach me much, it has extended my career
opportunities no end, though.
I am 37 know.
Even if you have transferable credits already, and can test out of classes- you will still probably have to do more than a year.
Most accredited universities will mandate that a certain percentage of your work be done through them in order for them to give you a degree.
This makes sense on 2 levels. You can't take one class somewhere and say you have a degree from that school and they make some money off you.
The only 1 year programs I am aware of to get a technical degree will only give you a degree in I.T. and require that you have another Bachelors prior to entering the program.
As has been posted, there are way to many prerequisites and classes that cannot be taken concurrently to earn a bachelors from start to finish in one year.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
There are several types of competency tests you can take to earn quick college credit. CLEP, DANTES, and TECEP spring instantly to mind. As for colleges, i would suggest Empire State College in NY. It's a SUNY school, which means it's fully accreditted, and is designed for people who are working and trying to earn degrees at the same time. They give credit for prior learning, which basically means that they will give you school credit for all those books and work you have done in the past, as long as you can prove you learned something from it. You can only get 96 of the 128 credits needed for a bachelors degree in that manner, but its an excellent start. They are also set up for distance learning, and many students there never physicially step foot on the campus.
First some background. I have a degree in organic chemistry, and made the jump to computers because the opportunity was there. My salary has since doubled (in three years), I'm heading towards a senior consulting role, my company is paying for 4-5 courses/year (actually eight this year, but it was an exceptional year), and the sky is the limit from my point of view.
Computing is still a field where a degree isn't mandatory. It's possible to get by (and even thrive) on determination and ability, if you're willing to work hard at it. Having a degree is better than not, and having a computing degree is better than another one, but nothing will preclude you from going as far as you want with one caveat--grad school. (more in a minute on that)
As far as the "fast track degrees," if it's the sort that I'm thinking of ("Start A New And Rewarding Career In Computers In Your Spare Time!!!!!") then don't bother! Nobody in their right mind takes them seriously. If you want some paper, take vendor courses and exams and become a "certified" Sun/HP/Linux/Whatever admin. If you can put that on your resume', it'll show more prominently than a degree from Bob's Computer College and Used Car Sales.
The one case where a degree is almost critical is if you want to go on to get a Master's or Doctorate. The problem there is again that a degree from one of these colleges isn't going to help much.
If you feel the need for a degree (and there are very good reasons for it), then take a deep breath, pull out your chequebook, and spend four years at it.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
For CS in particular, any university worth the effort of attending will probably require you to complete the first-year courses in all other sciences - physics, chemistry, biology. Plus first year courses in mathematics. Plus the humanities - literature, humanities, etc. You aren't expected to become an expert in any of these fields, but you should learn enough to be able to recognize when someone is trying to sell you a pack of lies in an election, in a courtroom (as a juror), or as the next-of-kin when a loved one is seriously ill. That's the stuff that ultimately matters, not just knowing how to write LALR(a) grammars.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Hmmm....5 years @ 50% increase per year...that is a total of a 759% increase. If he started at 20K/year he is now making 151K, starting at 30K he is making 227K. At 24 yrs old, I don't think so.
In any case, I don't see how you can complete a CS degree in a year. At 120 credits for a degree (mine was actually like 139), that comes out to 40 classes at 3 credits per class. 20 per semester? Even if you include a full winter and summer schedule (which is probably hard to find), 10 classes in a semester is an impossibility. 2.5 hrs per class per week = 25 hours per week = 5 hrs per day if they are all in a row. Not to mention that there is such a thing as prerequisites for classes, so many of the classes cannot be taken concurrently.
I'm sorry, but this whole "Ask Slashdot" seems just too outrageous to be true.
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
Information is at College Board. I just finished my BS in CS -- took twenty years to do so with time off for good behaviour. Had I not clep'd out of 21 credits, I'd still be going.
The only reason I finished the degree is to get the *next* job -- many HR departments use keyword filtering on their resume databases and I want to make sure I don't get lost because I didn't have a degree.
That argument is moot if you are good, and have a good headhunter and the economy allows companies to afford their services.
--jdp Maintainer of VisEmacs
Ok.. I think its funny how some people think that the way that they did something is the only way to do it right and that everybody else must be idots for doing it diffrently.
You can't just fake your way through life anymore by cutting/pasting other people's Perl scripts.
Uhm yah.. I think there are quite a few people out there that were in the dotcom thing just for the money. The problem with them is that no amount of schooling will help them. You either have a passion for this feild and excell or your just in it for the money..
If you don't, then knowing all there is to know about your major shouldn't be worth more than, say, half of a degree, from any respectable school. That's because a college degree (undergrad BA/BS level) implies more than passing your major, it implies some degree of general education. It means you've taken the "distribution requirements" in humanities, sciences, etc. That's what distinguishes college from trade school. A college grad should have been exposed to at least a good selection from literature, art, history, economics, and other subjects utterly unrelated to the major. And should be able to write a decent essay, if not a thesis -- literacy is a two way street.
At the grad school level, your work experience and trade ability are more focused. But don't confuse training with education.
I work at a major consulting firm, in a technical group. We're largely a bunch of liberal arts majors who have technical skills. Moving up in consulting requires educational breadth, not depth. At least not the kind of depth you get in college.
...are now scrambling to get one! Ha!
Wait 'til you find out that you'll need to know REAL SUBJECTS like MATH and PHYSICS to get a degree.
You can't just fake your way through life anymore by cutting/pasting other people's Perl scripts.
See folks? You too can get a degree and be an insufferable dickhead to other people!
S.
http://www.stepto.com
... did you know that getting a CS degree has very little to do with PROGRAMMING?
;-). Lots of calculus, and the hideous "discrete structures" courses. ::shudder::
I am in the same boat as you, and when I attended [a state school in Florida well known for computer science], I was surprised that the focus is entirely on the Science of Computing. Sure, some classes require you to know how to program in a certain language, but that is not the focus. The focus is on MATH. At least in the first years (that's as far as I got
In short, I don't see how a human could possibly get a CS degree in one year.
"And like that
of a CS degree, congratulations. As anyone will tell you though, a veneer needs a solid backing to stand on it own. What the backing consists of is the liberal arts (well roundedness), fundamental mathematics (Calculs, Matrix, Discrete, and stat), and exposure to the science and engineering side of the business (logic circuit design, followed by computer architecture).
Even if you have read through many of the senior level texts, you probably didn't fully absorb the subject material without the fundamentals. It is amazing to re address a subject when you have a better grasp of the fundamentals. The subject looks so much clearer.
Now that doesn't mean you can't have a rewarding career as a programmer. Many of your co workers will not have fully grasped the subject material on their degrees, thus putting you on a equal footing. When it comes time for promotions, or finding a new job though you will be much better off with the degree.
The ending of the dot com boom isn't the resurrection of uninformed companies blindly hiring people waving stacks of paper at them. Good engineers without degrees were getting jobs before the dot com boom. Companies finally started to wake up in the early 1990s and will continue to remain awake now.
/good/ engineers were getting the good jobs. The people that cut and paste Perl scripts are done with, but that doesn't mean you need a degree any more now than you did 2 years ago.
/people/ and not paper. You will be glad you did.
The important difference is that now (and before the insanity) only
There will always be companies, and shops that won't let you in the door without a degree... but do you care to work for them? Look for a company that is hiring
...given the position that you're already in, I really don't think a degree will give you any advantage. You've already got plenty of practical real-world experience (THE most important factor), and additional merits to help back that up. A degree really isn't worth anything unless you're just trying to get in the door. In most cases, a degree is a somewhat-acceptable "substitute" for experience - which you are not lacking.
It seems to me that you're already "over the hump" in terms of getting into the industry, and that ANY degree, be it a BS or MS, isn't going to be worth the effort.
That should read: "I am 37 now."
- Penguin Kicka
I'm not at all hurting right now, so I don't have any regrets or anything, but I don't blame these guys one bit for taking advantage of the situation.
Then again, I probibally would have ended up getting paid in stock... :)
I've never been unemployed, consistently gotten good raises and reviews, and am doing some really fun stuff (working in a large datacenter as the sole admin.)
Of course I didn't finish college. I can understand your feelings, tho. I dislike the large rush of peoplel running towards the dotcom world with $$$ in their eyes as much as the next guy. But not everyone who doesn't have a degree is one of them. I didn't feel like I was learning anything useful in college, so I left after the first semester of my junior year. Mostly because in the 3 years I'd been there they had yet to teach me anything I hadn't already taught myself in high school.
The problem with getting your degree is getting the general education classes out of the way. Any 'geek' could pass all the CS classes and other tech related stuff but having to take english, communication etc etc requires you to stay for more then the 1-2 years needed to complete all the CS classes.
My suggestion is to check out 'online' universities that offer a large percentage of their classes over the internet. This way you can keep working and do your homework and class related stuff in the evenings. Maybe the consulting firm would let you work part-time.
Another option is to enroll in a university test-out of as many classes as you can and then transfer to an online university as described above.
Your major problem is not going to be understanding what is being taught it will be the homework and class work that will be assigned. Such as write a 5 page paper about Bill Gates and then do your math homework and then do that other assignment and then meet with your 'team' to finish this project.
My company requires a Bachelors degree to move into the higher levels of our IT organization. This is not because it makes you a better system or network admin but it show two things, you are willing to stick with something (your education) to better yourself and that you know a little more than just how to use a PC.
My CS degree did not come close to preparing me to become a network admin but those years of math taught me good problem solving skills and occasionally I actually do use the Calculus. When getting a degree though you learn about more than just computers, you learn a little literature and history. Although this will not help you program, it does give perspective and rounds out the tech skills. You also may learn a little accounting and business law, skills that you will need as you move up the ladder and need to worry about budgets and personnel issues. These are just a few examples.
A college education is not for everyone but it is a good way to round out your knowledge base and the parties are cool.
Look into schools for "non-traditional students" or "adult students". They are in the business of helping working adults get a degree (for example, University College at Denver University http://www.learning.du.edu/ , or the University of Phoenix http://www.phoenix.edu/ ). They usually have classes during evenings and weekends, and they often give credit for "life experience". Some also issue "certificates" a year or two into the program, documenting that you have demonstrated proficiency in some skills -- this can help you get a better job sooner.
Don't be surprised, though, if you find that there are things they can teach you in college that you haven't learned yet, out in the "real world". It may be that there are indeed classes you need to take, and that you don't know all there is to know about CS yet!
Cara Hart chart@eNOSPAMfurn.com Systems Administrator eFurn.com, LLC. and ARITEK Systems, Inc.
As others have said, there comes a point where experience counts more than bits of paper; I don't really see how relevant my degree is now, as my experience has more than surpassed it. Over 90% of what I do is stuff I've learned in the last 4 years, not stuff I did in class.
I am in the same boat. I am pretty successful now at 23, but I never finished college. On the surface, this would not seem to be a problem. I am married and buying a house, and all seems well... however, in the back of my mind, I remember recessions past when the labor market was tight. Between two qualified candidates, the one with the degree always wins. I know I am going back. At least for something. It doesn't even matter so much what your degree is in. Just that you have it. If you really want to continue upwards, consider (gasp!) a business degree. If you already know CS, learn something new. Make yourself more versatile. You never know, they may just give you your very own flock of geeks to govern or turn into a primitive society as you see fit.
Strayer University [strayer.edu] is pretty generous with their "life" credit, if you're in the MD/DC/VA area (midatlantic US). I'm doing that route now- I'm a senior level consultant without even an associate's. They accept transfers easily enough, and simply req. that you complete a certain (1 yr, I think, but don't quote me on that) amount of time (which = ca$h to them) in their classes. They started out as a business college, so they have some odd prerequisites (Accounting? Intro to Business???), in addition to whatever your state makes you have for a degree (virginia, frinstance, apparently has decided that all THEIR students must have taken Logic or precalc, Communications 2 & 3, intro to art/music/lit, and other social science courses.)
:)
The *really* cool thing is that they're a Cisco Academy (and have something similar worked out with MS, apparently), so the courses you would take in, say, Computer Networking, are also good for your CCNA.
And no, I don't work for them.
In any event, check some of the border colleges- those that are midway between a "full" university and a community college. You may be suprised.
-- F.S.
I don't know about other universities (though I expect they'd do the same), but Oxford in Britain allows you to get into a MSc compsci program solely on the basis of work experience instead of previous degrees. British schools also has the advantage that a MSc degree only takes 1 year to complete, tuition is far lower than at a US school (because all schools there are public), and there's no requirements for physics, math, or anything except compsci.
Actually, degrees aren't important. It's been my experience that the "University of Waterloo, 1992-1997" on my resume works just fine.
;)
I studied there full time for a few years, then switched to part-time studies. I never received a degree, having been lured away by a tech company (but most certainly not a dot-com).
My initial salary back then in '95 was about $34k Canadian (piddly, I know). By 1997 I was making $50k there. It's now 2002 (almost) and after having worked for a few companies as a sysadmin & software developer, I pull down nearly $90k.
It's odd - I'd *like* to go back and finish my degree - the only reason I left was because I was *really* hurting financially back then. But every company I've worked for assumes that since my resume shows I attended university for approx. 5 years, I must have a degree. I never state anywhere that I've actually received a BSc, and in fact on several occasions have written "planning to finish my degree thru part-time studies". It doesn't matter. My experience does, and that's what sells.
Mind you, I'm sure that if I didn't have *any* post-secondary education listed on my resume, things would likely be much more difficult.
BTW: I hate Perl. I'd never cut and paste a line of it. Ick. Give me Python any day.
Thomas Edison (http://www.tesc.edu/) is a 100% distance learning acredited school. My mother took the clep tests (got about 30 credits), and then just portfolioed all of the work she's done in the past 47 years, and was able to achieve a degree in exactly one year. The only corses that she had to take were only the requirements. She would just email or mail the assignments in, and would be proctored exams at a local community college.
Not bad.
The problem with CLEPing courses, is that any accredited (real) university has a limit (of a couple of courses) on the amount of courses that you can can clep. Most of these lower division courses are like Algebra, Calculus I,II,III, etc. I don't know of any program that would let you clep Upper division classes core to your degree.
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Maybe if you slowed down for a few years and actually got your degree the traditional way, you'd learn a thing or two that would help you in life - not just technology.
For instance, you might just learn how to drop the arrogant attitude you spewed all over that post.
Oh well, since you're but 24, you still have lots of time left to get a life.
Ever see those commercials where Sally Struthers will sell you any degree through the mail? You show them college folk! :D
I busted my ass for 5 years in college to get my degree and I say that if you want the same priviledge that I've gained by having it, yer going to have to earn it like I did. What makes you so special?
I can understand the desire to have a degree, there are institutions that really want you to have that piece of paper that says you're in debt to a student loan processing center. I personally am in a similar situation with only a two year degree (electronics) and 7 years of IT experience. Here's my question though? Why do you want a CS Degree? Really, most employers are looking for *A* degree, it doesn't usually have to be a CS degree perse, especially with your experience.
If you're looking to advance your current career I'd say an MIS Degree (Management of Information Systems) would look better on your resume than a CS Degree.
It's been my experience that CS programs teach people to be programmers. How many CIO's and IT Directors are there that have come from the programming pool? Less than 1/2? Yes, programming is one road into an IT Career, but it certainly isn't the only one, or even the road that is the quickest.
All that said... a Degree isn't like an MCSE, you have to put in some time to get that piece of paper, but it'll be worth the time. Take the three years and learn something that will stick with you, rather than the current flavor of the day programming language.
What if it is just turtles all the way down?
A typical bachelors degree requires about 128 semester hours. If you finished such a degree in 1 year (fall, spring and summer semesters), you would probably take about 50 hours of classes in the fall and spring and 28 hours in the summer. 50 hours of classes would mean 50 hours in lectures and some time spent on assignments. I don't think it is likely that you could get a degree in 1 year.
Getting a degree in 2 years sounds possible, but hard. You would need to take 2 years away from your job. This is usually hard for people to do.
Your trend of 50% salary increases is great. If you could keep up the good work, you could be rich soon. Then you could decide whether a degree was important or not. Also taking off for a couple of years or more might be easier to do.
If you have reached a salary plateau which does not seem to be leading to early retirement, then you might have a real interest in a 4 year degree. I would suggest that a good starting point would be to enroll in 1 or 2 night classes while continuing with your work. Enroll in at least 1 math class. Also you might ask about taking tests to prove that you don't need to take some of the beginning CS courses. Perhaps you could cut one semester out of your degree plan.
Good luck!
Ray
Ray Seyfarth, ray.seyfarth@gmail.com, http://rayseyfarth.blogspot.com
Will you ever _need_ a degree? Once you get some experience under your belt it's not hard to find more jobs (assuming a certain level of talent since you got this job without a degree).
It's already clear that if you are on the bleeding edge then there's not much in school for you, but a college degree is a status symbol. When you're hobnobbing with the bigwigs at a cocktail party, hoping to get some high-dollar consulting work or whatnot, and they ask you where you went to school it comes in handy. Shallow though it may seem, many people will dismiss you if you don't have a college degree.
Your social connections can take you far in IT because so many geeks have no interest or skill in business communication.
Hurrying to post before I become redundant ... :)
Jack Valenti and the MPAA are to technology as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone
Is it because you're making a lot of money? Because you've been programming since you were twelve? Here's a tip: there are plenty of people in college who have plenty of money or have been programming since they were twelve, and they weren't able to skip 3 years of college, why should you?
Know someone who is stealing cable? Report them!
Why is this different from someone asking if there's a fast way to a medical degree for instance?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
You've been programming since a tyke, so that means that you've lived most of your life in front of the computer screen. Kudos for enjoying what you do. Sounds like you do it well.
That being the case, why waste your time getting a CS degree? If you're going to go to university at this point, why not go for one of the sciences instead? You may find that this opens up areas which you never expected. eg. computational biology, etc.
Doesn't have to be scientific in fact. Music, arts, philosophy, whatever. You think learning more about computers is really going to make your life that much better at this point of your career? I think not. Do something a bit different, and you may find it surprisingly rewarding.
Theoretically you could get a CS degree in one year, but the universities typically want you to take a certain amount of English, Math, History, Government, plus a certain amount of electives that aren't in your major. They want you to be "well-rounded," and I think that most employers who are looking for degreed CS professionals want well-rounded people as well. People who just want the job done won't care if you have a degree in the first place. But as you know, the work life is much more about interpersonal stuff and good politics and being responsible, etc, so there's probably not much a full degree can add to that. And while you could CLEP out of some things, CLEPing just means you don't have to take the lower courses, so you take the same 3 hours, but at a higher level. So it really doesn't buy you anything. Anyways, good luck. You might try some internet degrees, that way you can whiz through the history and focus on the CompSci side of things.
So you want to do 5 years of work in 1 year because you feel that you already know everything there is to know? How interesting....
A degree from an accredited university is more about learning how to write code. Things like learning advanced calculus so that you have a better understanding of math, physics so that you learn to solve complex problems and general education courses to broaden your horizons and make you a better person are part and parcel of getting a BS degree.
Stop looking for the easy way out, find a good program and relish in the education you will recieve. If you truely think you deserve some short of degree for life expenience petition the university and prepare for a little rejection.
But remember anyone that thinks they know everything has already proved they don't know anything.
I think one of the biggest problems you will find is that at most major Universites, CS is part liberal arts department. So you have to take lots of electives in social science, history, humanities etc. It seems kinda dumb, but thats part of having a BS degee, being well rounded etc. That is what the school is selling, and that is what anyone who is requiring a BS degree is looking for. Unfortunetly, all of those electives take time to complete, especialy if you can't go to school full time.
I spent 6 years in college, and they were well spent. I survived the dot-com boom unscathed, never been unemployed one day in my life, and I get to do cool stuff.
Good for you... But I just gotta ask... how did you pay for your education? I know one of the reasons I'm out in the real world without a degree is because I couldn't afford to go and get one when I graduated from high school (Unlike most people, my parents didn't want to get a second mortgage to finance my education).
Not only do I gain valuable experience from the real world, facing everyday problems (which from what I've seen no university or college can truely prepare any of their pupils for), I am making slightly less money than my counterparts who have degrees... We do the same work, but they have tens of thousands of dollars of debt to climb out of... while I don't. And the funny thing is when they get stuck, they go read a book to find the answer... I do the same thing... I've yet to see anyone truely apply a skill they could only have learned in college/university here at work (I work for a company that develops device drivers for various OS's).
So yes, a degree is necessary in todays slumping economy, but not because it is an indicator that you are smarter/better than someone who doesn't have one, it simply indicates that you probably have loads of debt, and will be staying put at this job for quite a while... and you'll be more willing to accomodate the company's needs rather than your own, just to keep your job to pay your bills...
---
Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
Did anyone else read that Ask Slashdot all the way through? My goodness, that was horrific! I suggest spending more time on your English grammar skills before any further CS studies. Ask any CEO or high level boss what kind of person they need working for them. Their biggest request is ALWAYS for someone who can speak, spell, write, and comprehend the English language properly. You sir, need English lessons.
I'm considering a Masters at ACCIS. It's a web based accredited college offering computer science degree's. The online part sounds great because it's all self paced, plus you can get up to 30 credit hours for work experience.
Our Technical Systems Manager, who's in charge of the hospital's network, large server room, etc, was something like 3 courses short of his CS degree when he quit school. No degree, but a cushy manager's position. CS is definitely something that you can get ahead at without a degree.
If your goal is management on the enterprise level, then maybe get the degree as a springboard for an MBA.
He could just stay at his job for another decade and BUY a university at that rate...
Or just buy a few honorary ones from Bill Cosby. That guy has dozens of degrees he never uses.
------
Today's Top Deals
.. we all hope you get over your jealousy...
(and get a job you like)
A B.S. degree takes four years. Most universities put CS in the Arts & Sciences college, which means there will be a healthy staple of humanities, math, etc. in addition to the CS classes. If you attend during the summer and schedule your curriculum carefully, you can save 9 months.
You can test out of some freshman classes with the AP/CLEP tests, but that's only 1-2 semesters maximum, and you would need to take tests in several subjects to receive that much credit. When I was a student (early 80s) I received a 5 (maximum) in the CS AP test. Woo-hoo. I got credit for two freshman programming classes, but that's a drop in the bucket.
Do you really need a degree? Depends. Not having a degree will automatically exclude you from many large companies. You won't pass HR screening. On the other hand, if you have good references, you can bypass HR most of the time. If you decide not to go the college route, you will need to get good exposure in your company so you will have an advocate when you want to change jobs.
Network; cultivate professional relationships with people you don't necessarily consider "friends". A solid recommendation from a coworker at a new job prospect is worth much more than your academic credentials.
You might try not viewing school as simply another stepping stone on your career path, the lack of which is "preventing" you from getting your next 50% pay increase. There is more to life than making money and doing things as fast as you possibly can. I know a lot of people will disagree, but I view school as something that makes you a better person all around (more well-rounded, more disciplined, more open to cross-pollination of ideas from different fields, etc.), rather than just filling you with knowledge of a specific field, handing you a degree and sending you off.
If you really want to go to school, I would suggest taking your time, and maybe taking some interesting non-CS classes.
Well, in my ever so humble opinion...
You've probably already got a good enough track record that to continue doing what you're doing and continuing advancing won't really be a problem. BUT...
Don't just go for a fast-track degree - i.e. don't go for a degree 'cos you need a bit of paper. Do the three or four years. Don't just take classes on the narrow subject that your career is - use university as an opportunity to take a sabattical from the world of work and get a broader knowledge of more things.
Although I went to university after only working for one year, I decided not to take a course that narrowly focused on only technical subjects. I'm a software developer - yet I took a BA degree, not a BSc.
I really enjoyed university, and I'm glad I didn't just race through on a fast track.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
You might try American Institute of Computer Science. I don't know much about it but I'm in the same boat you are and have thought off and on about going here. It's correspondence and to get your degree (from what I remember) you have to be enrolled a minimum of 9 months or so. So you can theoretically get your degree in a short time.
Getting a degree is not like getting a certification. It's about become more well rounded in other disciplines as well. For my BS in CS, I took classes like educational program design, accounting, logic, calc and physics. And I'm glad I did. I have a very good appreciation and a better understanding for things outside of IT/technology. If you "fast track" it, you are only hurting yourself in the long run. Enjoy it!
You may think you know it all, but you dont, wow, programming since 12? man, basic is so advanced! And also, you have read heaps of cs books? oh you mean like tcp for dummies and um ... hacking exposed and maybe using windows productivly? ahh so many ppl like you, be hapy with the job you are in, stay with what you understand.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
There is a lot more to a CS degree or any degree than your core subject matter. You ave math, science and liberal arts. While some may think this is a waste of you time it's require to get a B.S. Sorry but if you want the paper you got to put in the work like everyone else had too.
-ZiN-
So, you want to skip by everything else that normal CS majors have to bear, and spend about a year in school? Good luck. The point of a degree is showing that you not only have the understanding of your field, but are what society calls a well rounded individual. A Computer Science degree is not just a series of programming classes. At least not in a trade school.
The goal of computer science is to build something that will last at least until we've finished building it.
Call 1-800-366-9699 and ask to speak to an Enrollment Advisor or
goto http://apply.phoenix.edu/online and click the NEW USERS CLICK HERE! link.
It usually will take 2 years to finish a BSIT from scratch, and all classes are 5 weeks(24/7)
I also am a student with them, and so far have not missed traditional ground classes.
I really hate Dan Patrick.
Well, how do I say this while remaining polite? Let me try: I don't buy it.
You're a consultant at a major consulting organization. Fine. However, I deal with people from major consulting organizations just about every day, and while they might have some very practical skills, most of them are pretty mediocre (speaking from a CS point of view) and come from a business background. There's nothing wrong with this in itself, but it's a very different thing than having a CS background. CS teaches you a ton of things which you'll never need in your daily job (especially not in the position you've described yourself as having) but which form the foundations of the Computer Science discipline.
Also, I'm a bit sceptical about your claim that you've read hundreds of CS books. I'm a bit older than you and do have a CS degree and I can not claim that I've read 100s of CS books (maybe 100, but that would probably be stretching it; I may have browsed 100s, but that's not quite the same as reading & understanding them). Things like advanced algorithms, design patterns, compiler design and other related stuff are not light reading and can't be read in a weekend (at least not if you really want to *understand* the stuff they cover). And once you start reading Knuth's books, well, then you should have some serious free time if you want to understand them (despite several tries, I've never actually managed to dig through the entire 1st volume of his AoCP).
I found that duing my CS studies, much of the grueling time spent in my compiler design classes (to name a paricularly 'fun' one), was time well spent. I doubt you could really get the most out of these types of classes without actually doing all the work & projects; this unfortunately takes time. In summary, real CS and the stuff you do at work are probably quite different. Having done Business Process Design (yuck!) or some high level project work is not the same.
Lastly (unrelated to you, since I don't know you), my favorite anecdote from a big-5 consulting organization was a Business Process Design person (native English speaker) who, when I commented on one of his questions "Yes, we have an API for that" replied (with a straight face): "What's an API?". To me this is equivalent of working for Ford, Crysler or BMW and not knowing what a steering wheel is. I'm sorry, but every since that episonde, I have a certain measure of contempt for these people and the major consulting organizations who employ people like that.
Bottom line: I think doing a (serious) CS degree in 1 year is impossible. On the other hand, you may be some sort of genius who can do it in a year, but if you're normal like the rest of us (whatever you consider to be 'normal') you'll need more time to do real CS. It seems like you like the technical field you're in in which case you'll probably find the time spent to get a CS degree well spent.
Look, what you have learned is pratical stuff. All good, but you will never be able to adjust to a rapidly changing environ without an education. Skip the certs and cis degree. Focus on Computer science or Computer Engineering. These will pay off in about 3-5 years. BTW, when I went back to do CS, my 5 years of hard coding allowed me to get not only 3.98, but rarely had to take finals and had a chance to focus on theory instead of pratical.
There are too many out there who think you are lower than dirt if you don't have the "correct" degree. Been there done that with a BA degree in an engineering firm.
Spend the time. I worked 35-40 hours a week and it only took me four years, with the middle age slowdown upon me. If you pay atention you get a whole lot more than just a passport to more money.
It seems to me you've already taken the fast track, and now you want all the advantages of not taking the fast track?
If there were truly no advantages to getting a degree over just working then you wouldn't be stuck. Although you probably know as much as I(or more, I'm fairly new in the industry) about programming.
I don't like to look at it as an 'old boys club' where you have to pay the dues to get in, but I leared a lot in college besides programming. I learned a lot of math and lit and Physics and social engineering.
If I were hiring someone to do a project I wouldn't really care about anything except their coding skills, but you say you want to advance, if I were hiring a manager I would want someone with the more rounded experience.
If you really have been getting 50% bumps per year take some of your savings, bite the bullet and go to college.
"as plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee" - Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz. (One man's humorous is another mans flamebait)
Sign ME up!
that sounds better than my ~20%
First year math, sure. One poorly stripped down english subject so you know how to write a scientific paper, uh huh. literature, humanities, physics, chemistry, biology?? what are you smoking? It aint called a Computer Science degree for nothin'.
How we know is more important than what we know.
People seem to value the "pieces of paper with writing on them" that are in my wallet too.
;)
Especially in large organisations, it pays to have a few extra letters after your name. A degree is an independently verifiable way of judging someone's worth. Which, lets face it, if you get several hundred CVs / Resumes to plough through every day, you don't have time to individually determine a person's worth.
Of course, in large organisations, it's just as easy to PRETEND you've got a degree and hope they don't ask too much!
Computer science is a very broad field and a degree should include not only basic and advanced programming but also data structures/algorithm analysis, databases, discreet mathematics, compiler theory, language design theory, computer system architecture, logic design, numerical analysis, statistics, principles of software engineering, and assembly language programming - I'm sure I missed some...
Others may say that this level of study will not help you make more money. I will not address that here. But if you plan to get an MS in computer science later...completion of these classes will be required befor they let you begin.
Lastly, you may want to consider getting a full-time position rather then consulting if you plan to do this. They will pay for your education, BS and MS, they will create a stable environment so that you can plan on when you will be available to attend classes (I assume that you can not quit working while you do this), and they will see your effort as motivated self-improvement which may figure in with your raises, promotions, and work assignments. Of course, this will take longer since you will be attending part-time. Also, start slow. Take one class to start and up-it if you find that you have the time and energy to put in. And don't skip classes. HTH...
I want to be alone with the sandwich
There is this great misconception that just because one is a great programmer he does not need real training as a computer scientist. This is due to the fact that most people think of a BS in CS as a formal education as a IT worker, so one who thinks he is a great programmer thinks that a BSCS wont really add anything usefull to him, except for the diploma.
The fact is that Computer Science is not only about becoming a IT worker. Its about using computers to solve problems, and about designing these computers to solve this problems. And about understanding and modeling the problems to begin with. There are actually great programmers who are mediocre computer scientists, great computer scientists who are mediocre programmers (usually of the thoretic cs kind), and great it workers who are great computer scientists (and really shitty programmers and Computer Scientists). And since these are different things, that is why it takes about 5 years to graduate a computer scientist.
Sometimes, a programmer who "learned CS" by his own, has acquired many bad habits that he would not have acquired if he had any formal training ("goto statement considered harmfull" comes to mind), and design rules, software engineering, etc. By the other side, self-learned IT professionals have a much more "getting the work done" attitude, and finding things out by himself, which is *extremely* usefull in industry.
So the idea is that one thing complements the other, and yes, it would be nice for anyone who works with technology without a formal training to really spend the time *learning* CS.
Just my 2c.
Strangely enough, in the 12 years I've been working in the industry, I never had to use any of the high school math I studied, much less college calculus. Nor the physics or economics. As for the liberal arts aspect of the degree, most liberal arts professors are pretentious assholes who will pass you as long as you don't disagree with their interpretation of the works you're studying.
I am actually seriously considering going back to school to finish off my degree and move on to some advanced ones, but I would be doing so because I've gotten tired of not having anyone around that I can talk to. It's very rare that you'll find someone in the industry who might be, say, learning LISP for the fun of it or who is writing a compiler or hacking the Linux kernel source. Most of the people you meet In The Real World have no aptitude in this industry and either got their degrees in other subjects or went through a comp-sci or IT type degree for the money. They put in their 6 to 8 hours then drive their minivan or their SUV home to the wife and kids.
I would still take a person with four years of experience over someone fresh out of college, all other things being equal.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
It sounds like you're working under the assumption that the purpose of a BS in Computer Science is to teach Computer Science. This is not entirely the case.
Any BS degree program includes required classes in math, science, english, and various social sciences. I have a BS in Computer Science but damned if my college was going to let me have it without 20+ hours of humanities courses. This may seem like a horrendous waste of time but the purpose is to turn out well-rounded students. When an employer looks for "that magic piece of paper" they are actually looking for proof that you know more than just the immediate skills for the job. It also helps that you prove you can stick to a task for four or more years.
This is also the major difference between a University and a Technical College. Tech schools are about training you for a job and thus focus on the particular skills you need for that job. Universities aim to give you a general education with less of an emphasis on what you learn but more on teaching you how to learn.
Ironically when I graduated and got my magic paper I suddenly realized that I wasn't trained for any particular computer job. Still, I seem to manage learning on the job pretty well and I have had little trouble finding gainful employment, even after being laid off. For my money the degree was worth it.
Never approach a vast undertaking with a half-vast plan.
...getting a college degree is not just about taking classes in your field of study. It's about getting a well rounded education. There are some things that you just can't shortcut.
You seem like you have the CS stuff down... but my question is:
Do you have the other 50-70 some odd credits worth of classes that do not involve CS?
A bachelor's degree is (supposed to be) a well-rounded educatation. You are right, a CS degree does involve programming and reading a lot of CS related books. ( Trust me I know :) ) However, it also involves A LOT of other subjects like for example, Math. Calculus I-III, Diff. EQ, Discrete Math and the like. Which at first seem like wastes of time (some I think are) but, some of it does relate back to CS. A Discrete Math class has a section about binary trees for example and ways of traversing them. Note: I know that is a basic example, but hey I was up late and got no sleep. I can't think of a better example right now ;)
So personally, I wouldn't go with the "give me the quick and easy route." If you want that then get Certifications.
We are blind to the Worlds within us
waiting to be born...
It's interesting that so many people view a college degree as nothing more than a career opportunity. I actually just completed my Computer Science degree at Penn State, and I can't tell you the number of times I heard people say "I'm only here so I can a degree and then get a job." I think many have lost sight of what a degree represents. It represents a desire for knowledge, to move beyond simple facts and figures and programming. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with those who simply want to program, but a college degree should represent so much more.
When I received my degree, I did not say, "Oh, good, now I can get a job. That's all this degree is good for." To me it represented the culmination of almost four years of hard work, in which I did study Computer Science, but I also studied Latin, Jazz music, and many other topics.
Unfortunately, the mentality in college has changed, not just in computer science. The notion of "I hate going to college, but I need a degree to get a job" is growing. College is becoming more of a votech sort of education. I'm not implying that there is anything wrong with a votech education, but there are institutions that specialize in such things.
So in response to the question, no, you cannot get a college degree in a year. To do so would really be an insult to what the degree represents. It represents a dedication on one's part to learning, to expanding one's mind. And really, that can't be accomplished in one year.
Computer Science is probably alot different than you realize if you are working in consulting (as I am). Computer Science programs delve deep into subjects such as discreet math, theory of computation (automata and formal language definitions), analysis of algorithms, not to mention at least 3 courses of calculus, and many require a couple of science classes such as physics.
The problem with completing it in a year is that many of these classes have prerequisites that must be completed before reaching the higher level classes.
But keep in mind, CS has alot of theory involved. If you're looking for something a little more practicle you might want to consider an Information Systems degree possibly via a business department, which may have fewer prerequisites. The only downside to an IS degree is that you will not be able to pursue an MS in Computer Science as easily.
So I guess the bottom line is that there is no shortcut to getting a Computer Science degree, but that is also what makes it all worth it. If anybody could get a CS degree in 1 or 2 years, they would not be as valuable.
I Heart Sorting Networks
If your 24, take it easy, take night classes, take some humanities classes too. If you find the classes easy, do some tutoring. Meet some college girls, go to some frat parties. Use the coursework to add polish to your professional projects.
Computer programming is very demanding mentally and emotionally. Slow down so you don't burn out so early in your career. If you have some fun along the way, so be it.
There is more to a degree than your major (ie time management, social skills, learning to play the game) and companies that require a degree are requiring these other skills as well.
I've been in the same boat as this guy for a few years now. I went to college for CS , and quit after the first year thinking it was pointless for what I wanted to do. I then took my Sys/Network-Admin job back and have been doing that ever since. I make ok money , but I know that HR depts are looking for a degrees. I've heard all about going to college to become that "well rounded" person which is complete BS, I've worked with people that just came out of school "well rounded" and out of touch with the world and more importanly with bad work habits. I'd say just bite the bullet and get the degree in CS, CIS whatever, BTY I start classes again in a week ("back to calc I")
I got a degree in Physics. Four years of mental masturbation, essentially. Not that it wasn't interesting - don't get me wrong - but it had no bearing on what I do now (hacking Java for food).
Nowadays, when I interview I'm usually first directed to a BrainBench instant quiz on EJB, or JMS, or XML, or whatever the particular job requires. Degree, past experience, etc., count for nothing in the original interview phase. It's all whether or not BrainBench judges me competent.
So, from a career perspective, I think you'd be better off getting certifications in the area where you work and keeping current on technology trends.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
Well that's just shows how much you know! I've been working at the local hospital for five years now (started practising when I was 12) and I've saved so many lives that I'm an invaluable member of staff. Next year I hope to complete my med degree in 9 months and then open my own surgery.
How we know is more important than what we know.
I'm glad you've found significant succeess. Kudos.
I have found as a hiring manager that people who have degrees that come in to see me are some of the most arrogant people I have to deal with. I have taken to (unless I see something really exciting in the experience column) not hiring degreed individuals at all.
The Linux folks and the folks who worked their way "up the ranks" have a considerably more realistic view of the salaray world, the cost of living world, personal interaction as a team member/player, etc. People who have taken the college route tend to come in expecting certain things just because they know spanish and philosphy...like they're entitled to something even if their experience level is nil.
To me, the most valuable employees intern or work in the industry, working their way through a PC shop during high school/college, find that the money's good there and begin to specialize in a personal interest. (networking, UNIX, etc.) By then, their salaries are in the mid 30's and they are gaining real expertise in major areas. They then take some classes and maybe gain a certification or two and forge a nice path for themselves (and by now their family) in the industry. Finally, they are in the 50-60k range and then realize.."You know...I need to have a degree." When they realize this, they typically do college in their spare time and excel at it. It takes them a bit longer to do it, but going to college when you're an adult, and you actually have money to live on is considerably more rewarding. *THESE* have been my best employees.
I must say though, as you already may have guessed, I'm a bit biased. I've been in the PC industry (and subsequently the UNIX industry) for nearly 12 years...and my degree is complete next December.
--Questy
http://www.captured.com
#!/Jerald
unfortunatly, just knowing what you know (though it is more then enough to get the job done)
does not offer you an advantage in University. Infact, it may even be a disadvantage to you.
you know a lot of the course material which will help you in many classes, but you will get board.
you have your ways of doing things and profs have their insain ways...profs always win and you will have conflicts with them on how to do a project.
in university, course work is based much more on theory than on reality. what may be the best way to actualy do somthing may not be the way you do it in university becuase you are there to learn thoery of computer science, and theory of programming (why do you think many institutions teach programming in usless laguages..though many are changing and there is debate on if that is wise)
you definatly have the smarts and the knowlege to complete a degree, but there are a lot of profs that do not like people that know what to do because they want the students to do what they are told with little decent or discussion on implementation.
granted there are some nice profs who like to discuss and even allow alternate ways of doing things, but you still get stail cource work that does nothing of any value.
you need a degree, but relise that you will be very board and at times you will get frustrated at the work assignments and the attitues of the profs.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
You might be able to do this if you already have a B.S. of some sort with a lot of math. I managed a Comp Sci B.S. in a year and a half, but I already had a B.S. in Physics with a Math minor.
Even then, it was quite hard. Scheduling dependencies might require you to take many difficult classes at once to fit into your timeframe, unless they let you test out of some intro classes.
If you already have a B.S. and as much experience as you say, getting a CS degree on top of that is probably a waste of time. The only thing a BS would do is help you get past brain dead HR drones for your next job.
It'd be better to get a Masters in CS or Software Engineering, preferably on the company tab. In retrospect, that's what I probably should've done.
I thought that you could only do that if you had a Ph.D! You mean I dont have to spend 8 years of my life and finances to do so!?!?!! Yay!!
Seriously, I've had too many prof's, and co-workers that are exactly that... They seem to think thoes 3 little letters mean they can be the big bully of satan.
Many people have cited the ability to test out of classes.
Smaller universities are more inclined to bargain with you as well. If you can demonstrate the experience and ability, you can forgo many classes without testing or other red tape.
I've been considering such action myself as there are a few classes that I simply do not need (already knowing my career).
"You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
How many times are you going to instigate this same "discussion". There will be hundreds of posters (without degrees) who say "It's what you know and what you can do that counts; not some piece of paper". Then there will be hundreds of posters (with degrees) who say "A degree indicates a breadth of knowledge, not just some narrow job skills".
This whole thing has been run over and over on slashdot. I can't even bring myself to read the discussion enough to find the lame flames that are sure to erupt.
Say you started at $4/hour..
4
8
16
32
64
At $64 an hour you are probably doing better then many CS types... If you really like the software, and you don't want to be a manager, supervisor, or leader, the whole promotion thing doesn't matter to you.
On the other hand, if you really want to be more than just a high paid VB contractor, you do need more training, and not in CS. You need to learn business, communications, management, statistics, etc....
gs
Not a fast track, but for those who are serious about getting a degree the Open University is geared towards those who need to study at their own pace. Dunno how it works in the US, but in GB the Open University gives opportunity to lots of people who other wise wouldn't have it - by providing them with a sound study framework, but enabling them to work to their own circumstances.
Check out http://www.open.edu or http://www.open.ac.uk
Dunstan
The last scintilla of doubt just rode out of town
There is more than just programming to get a CS degree. Programming is only half of it. At least in my school. The other half is the digital systems part ot if. The hardware, simple circuit design and such. Probably 4 courses in Calculus and always the general education requirements.
I know everyone says it can't be possible, but it is, sort of.
... english) you can complete in like a year.
Excelsior University (accredited by Middle States, like almost every other school on the Eastern Seaboard) offers a BS in CIS ( i know not the same but most HR depts don't know the diff and it will get you into grad school).
Now you can complete with a combination of Transfereed credits, credit by examination, life experience, and certifications.
Depending on what you already have (like an associates or bachelors in
www.itdegree.com
www.excelsior.edu
Eagle Scout, the highest rank in Boy Scouts, has to be achieved by the age of 18. To get there, you need to accomplish every other rank before it, some twenty-one merit badges in various subjects, and a self-designed project to benefit the community and demonstrate leadership. Only 2% of American Scouts achieve it, and colleges and jobs actually recognize it -- not because they like Scouting (note: this isn't nearly as impressive after age 25) but because it shows you possess initiative, leadership, and determination, and that you can finish a difficult task set before you.
College degrees have a similar effect. Besides showing that a major university considers you qualified and educated in your field, it proves that you're willing and able to achieve a difficult and long-term goal set before you by yourself. The goal isn't to prove you know your stuff, but to prove you can prove it, and hang in there long enough to impress someone much bigger than your corporate boss.
I have a degree, it comes in useful, it allows you to put letters after your name and looks good on your CV. And I would actually say they were the best 3 years of my life, and I would have no hesitation recommending University to anyone. Although a Degree with no experience is a pain, job experience with a degree will put, maybe, 20% onto your salary.
But if university is not an option have a look here where if your are good enough I suppose you could qualify with a BSc in 2 years, and then go on to an MSc.
Also have a look at the BCS as their qualifications are to degree standard (although you would have *BCS after your name instead).
try to make ends meet, you're a slave to money, then you die
Congratulations on recognising that a lack of a degree will hinder your career potential. Unfortunately, other than getting rid of some general education requirements through CLEP, there's no really fast way to get a degree.
I'd suggest you look at the University of Phoenix. They have programs where you take one class each month and get it all done much quicker than "conventional" universities. And they're accredited. But there's no getting around the breadth requirements that every real university is going to put in front of you. To be honest, those requirements are there for a reason. It's fantastic to be a great coder, but unless you can also document your code, write the RFQ or business proposal, produce well written status reports, write annual reviews for people working under you, etc., you will never be able to do more than be a drone. Good luck.
"Suppose you were an idiot..... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeate myself."
CLEP = College Level Examination Program
If its one thing I've learned after pissing away $20,000 after 2.5 years, its that college has very little to do with the aquasistion of knowledge. What you already know will be of little help, and in fact will make the classes that much more boring. The main thing college CS is designed for is to see how much BS you can put up with, not what you know. This makes it unlikely that you will be able to get out of much more that 1 and a half semesters of classes by cleping out of them.
:/
I finally decided to quit after realizing the majority of the time that I was supposed to be using on doing homework was being used instead by me going info-mining looking for some scrap of new information, especially information the professors and TA's out-right refused to even talk about, even though the information would be on topic for the class.
It seems like University CS departments have become corporate meat-grinders, they just happen to teach a little along the way. I have been told by people in the feild the corps spend about 9 months teaching the grads what they universities _should_ have taught them.
Maybe the diplomas should say "I can put up with 4 years of BS in CS without losing it."
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
Kyrex,
Well this is kind of weird, since I am also 24 and have a BS in Computer and Information Science, as well as being halfway through to a Master of Science in Software Engineering.
Let me get straight to the point: your underlying assumption is incorrect. Having a BS or BA in Computer Science will give you no more advantage than you already have! Don't get me wrong, it is an invaluable asset to me - but in my experience the main benefit of having the degree is the fact that you will come out of the institution with the ability to research and learn new languages easily - this is what they teach you after all! In the IT field, new technologies emerge annually. The degree will enable you to use these new technologies as if you were an "old hand" and had been using them for years.
In terms of salary or competitive advantage, the Master's degree will most certainly give you both a $20k salary boost and a position above the peons in most any company.
Just my $.02. Anyone else agree/disagree?
I'm a 2000 man.
I would like a law degree and a medical degree and throw in a discount on a PhD if you would. Oh, and I want it to only take 2 years, max.
Let's be realistic. I had been coding for 10 years as well before school and yet it took the four years to complete the degree. There is more to a COLLEGE DEGREE than just a couple of programming assignments. The point of any college degree is that you become well rounded and develop an area of expertise. They go hand in hand.
Granted, you can go a long ways in life without the college degree but learning things like DeMorgan's laws and differential equations as well as the theories behind how the human mind works can be applied in software and is what makes a person that has gone to school more valuable than one that hasn't. (Make note, this is a general rule, not a universal one!)
What you are asking for is a certificate. Get one of the hundred that are offerred some where.
if you're good, the degree is irrelavent. Build a great resume. The old myth was that if you didn't have a degree, you couldn't move into management --- it's no longer true. If you want to help move into management, take a project managment course. The industry is sadly lacking decent project managers with tech backgrounds.
Nothing says "more money" and "big promotion" than actually managing a project that arrives on time, under budget, and actually delievers a functioning product.
Even if you take the project management course on your own, start applying the ideas to your daily work - give your boss schedules, and gannt charts, etc, and prove you know how to and can do it - and they're bound to let you
Age is no excuse in this industry - no one understands the technology, or has the enthusiasm, quite like the youth - but then again, youth is notorious for not actually *delievering*.
Geez, I didn't know you could get a degree off of Morpheus.
So, I should just throw away that acceptence letter from CMU now ?
AICS or American Institute for Computer Science (or something like that) is an accredited distance learning school where you can get a BS in computers science. It offers credit for real world experience which will cut out classes you need to take. Try www.aics.edu
...with no college degree yourself? Isn't it possible that your assessment of "arrogant people" is based on the fact that they have accomplished something in life that you have not? I bet you are an asshole.
I want to be alone with the sandwich
I was a math/physics major, spent about half of my career in scientific or engineering shops, and I think I've used calculus to solve a problem once in 20 years.
But I use it every day. Not directly, but the skills I developed in those classes map well to the skills required to write robust code. Maybe there are other ways to develop those skills, but for now the best correlation appears to between math and coding, with juggling/coding a promising lead.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
I've been in school forever, about to complete a PhD in CS, and I have heard the undergrad advisor give the same lecture to students over and over again. A Computer Science degree program is not intended to generate programmers. CS is best described as applied mathematics, which is why the primary focus of most of the CS coursework is on the theoretical underpinnings, with a heavy dose of math study. Rarely will you get degree credits for taking a pure programming class.
:)
Now aside from that, I question the validity of any Bachelors degree that you can obtain in a year. I hate to sound esoteric, but a four year degree is not vocational training. You are supposed to learn something broader than your field of study. I think we lost something important a while back when our reason for attending a University became motivated solely by the desire to increase our salary. I think there's still something to be said for the pursuit of knowledge and possibly the experience of being surrounded by other smart and motivated students. But then again, I'm an academic nerd, so what do I know.
"Kensington University is a private, non-sectarian, independent University offering Bachelor, Master, MBA, and Doctoral degree programs in Business, Social Science, Computer Science, Engineering, Law, and Education."
It's a distance learning program, and it's for real. I know of a professor at Cal State LA who holds a valid PhD in EE from here.
www.kensington.edu
"Be regular and orderly in your life, so that you may be violent and original in your work." -Flaubert
And while you were in school eating Ramen soup we were at ground zero of the dot-com era that will be remembered for years to come. Now that it's over those of us who choose to can go back to school while the economy is down and not miss out on much.
As far as faking our way through life by cutting/pasting Perl scripts, that's just ridiculous. It sounds more like my experience at college where I had to practically teach my professor C++ and half the kids could barely use Windows let alone Unix.
Anyway, I'm glad you "get to do cool stuff". Do they pay six figures for that these days? Meanwhile we dot-commers will head back to school in our paid off BMWs and lucrative side consulting businesses. Maybe you'll work for us someday.
I agree not everyone needs "that piece of paper".
However, I think your missing the point of having a degree... First off, the physical piece of paper doesn't mean anything. What that piece of paper represents does mean soemthing. IMHO, it means that you were willing to sweat it out and work hard for 4-5 years on a subject. Dispite what some my think (via TV and movies) college is HARD. Unless, your in "slackers" major. :)
Note: I do understand that thier are some out there with the will and not the way (ie money) to go college and vise versa.
We are blind to the Worlds within us
waiting to be born...
'Nuff said.
>Make yourself valueable to them
yeah, those poor spellers are REAL valuable.
http://linuxmonkey.freeservers.com
Get your degree in 3 easy payments of 39.95 at Krock University, the only unofficially accredited post-education institution for the blind and meager. Act now, and we'll throw in an honorary mention in the Dean's list for an extra 9.95$
(KU is no way affiliated with KMart).
I have family members who have degrees in CS or are Computer scientists with Phd. If you love programming and can pick up theory on your own, then spending 1-3 years on a degree may not be the right choice. If on the other hand you feel a desire to learn advance computer science topics as others have mentioned, then a degree is likely to be beneficial.
My own criteria for "to degree or not to degree" is purely internal and has nothing to do with "will I reach a ceiling without a degree." If you're not getting the degree to fullfill a deep desire, then forget it. Having gone to grad school, advanced degrees require a lot of "butt kissing" and bs. Ask anyone with an advanced degree and they will tell you.
Whether or not to get a degree also depends on where you live. If you live on the west coast, degrees are secondary. If you live on the east coast and want to work for a large financial institution, then getting a degree is pretty important. In the end, you have to ask yourself, "will all this matter when I am 80?"
Trying to find a short cut to getting a degree tells me you should seriously question your motivations first and find out exactly why you should even consider getting a degree.
It's been about 6 years now, and I'm starting to get the itch to finish my last year of school, but due to still needing/wanting to work, it's not possible for me to go back to the original school. ( I went to RPI in New York, and currently work in Chicago area, so the commute would be hell ).
I started looking into local schools that I could attend to finish up. Most wanted me to attend them for at least 4 semesters before they'd grant a degree, and then there's the problem of transferring credits from one school to another, etc. I finally found a school that would let me finish the way I wanted. DePaul University ( a respected institution ) has a School for New Learning. That allows adults who previously skipped or ( like me ) never completed college to apply whatever previous college credit they have, along with taking into account your work experience, towards a BA degree. You can also continue on in the same manner towards an MA as well.
DePaul is located in the Chicago area, but it is quite possible that similar programs exist near you. If you haven't finished a degree yet, but have several years of experience in your industry, this type of program definitely seems the way to go.
---
Segmentation Fault ( core dumped )
This is absolutely correct. Your BS or Bachelor of Science indicates that you have completed a certain set of requirements relatively common across all types of degrees that indicate they are of this type. For me, this included a few Chemistry classes, a few Physics classes, a good many Mathematics classes, various humanities and social science classes (various psychology classes, a literature class on Sci-Fi, and quite a few foreign language courses in my case) as well as classes in other disciplines such as Computer Engineering, Electrical Engineering (logic gates, anyone?) to name but a few.
As was mentioned above, you may be a crack programmer, but that's not all that's required for a degree, which is why you need a degree to continue to progress on your career ladder. The tasks that most probably await you will require certain degrees of critical thinking that are enhanced with the variety of non-CS classes that are required for the BS degree.
Another thought: do you have any degree? I assume you do not, but if you *did* many CS Masters programs (for example that at Chicago's DePaul University) will allow you to either take or test through a variety of core classes that essentially determine if you have what it takes for the Masters courses, if so - you're home free and on your way to your Masters. If not, you simply take the classes you need (shouldn't take more than a couple semesters) and then you're on your way. Again, I believe this only works if you have an undergraduate degree of some sort already.
First the little piece of paper .. well when heads come to role .. those that do not have that piece of paper are generally the first out the door.
... they are "ok" when it comes to programming Visual Basic. BS in CS to the max.
.. they tell you what you should think. A good 4 year college will teach how to think for yourself.
I have seen many people get passed up for promotion because they dont have that piece of paper.
I have worked with 18 month and "here is your BS in CS" people
Fast track degrees are NOT accredited by the Computer Science Accreditation Board (CSAB). (now abet)
And one final thing, when you take a "quickie" course
Getting a "quickie" CS degree is like going out and buying a Yugo, it can get your around, but you just dont know how reliable it is.
Take your time and get the 4 year degree. There is no shame for taking time. In fact with benefits from work, taxes, etc, it may be better in the long run. If you want take ALL your CS courses first, and then grind out the humanities, science and math courses.
Dont be cheap on yourself.
-- Knowing too much can get you killed, but knowing who knows too much can make you rich.
You may be a good programmer with lots of experience, but I doubt your job requires you to work with all the subjects you need to get a CS degree. Think about it. You need Computer Architecture, Artifical Intelligence, Databases (more than SQL...), Software Engineering, Networks, Analysis of Algorithms (if you have experience here you're job is one in a million), Operating Systems, Computer Graphics and other electives, all at the very least.
Then you have two semesters of Chemistry, Physics, Calculus 1-3 and Discrete Math, Statistics, English, Tech Writing, 2 Poli Sci, 2 History, 2 Humanities, 4xPhys Ed, blah blah blah.
Just because you know how to program doesn't mean you can push all this crap into one year. That's like taking 60+ hour semesters.
What you should do is take some of your savings (you did save, right?) and use it as a buffer for you to do school for 3 years, interning during the summers or working part time. College is a blast
I see the significance of understanding that which I don't already, and I want to take some night courses. Can anyone who has read through the three volumes point me in the direction of relevant math courses to take? I'm not interested in an entire computer science degree, or any degree for that matter. I'm interested in enlightenment.
Try Philip Greenspun's brainchild, ArsDigita University .
Its not the fucking paper, its the time spent behind the paper.
Those attending community college lack character, and employers know this (as do most.)
The stance is merely a practical one.
Is a Computer Science degree the only way to go? If you can be more flexible, check out the online degree programs at University of Maryland University College. You could, say, get a BS in Computer & Information Science; supplement this with a calculus sequence at a local school and you should be set to move on to a MSc. in CS. Or, with a BS in any subject, look at UMUC's MS in Software Engineering...
Badgeez?! We don' need no steenking badgeez!
If you go to a real college you will get what's known as a liberal education. No, you don't have to learn all there is about the democrats. You do have to take courses in subjects other than computer science such as art, history, language arts, physics, chemistry, math, math, math, and more math, phisical education, composition, etc.
On the bright side, you can probably get credit for the programming languages you already know and if you've been in the real world long enough, you should be able to get the non-programming computer courses like a structures course.
A fake degree might take a year, a real one will take lots of hard work and 3 years minimum.(I couldn't do it in 3 years, but I'm 21 and nowhere near you on the corporate ladder and such)
good luck,
sopwath
This is an idea of what you'll have to take to get a CS degree. Note that 32 hours of mathematics and science is required. My boyfriend CLEPed, takes summer school at a community college, and takes 15-18 hours of classes per semester, and he's only hoping to graduate in 4 years.
It's been said, but a faster way of gaining points is getting certified in something instead. Google has subcategory dedicated to tons of certification information.
I wish you good luck in whatever you choose to do.
I basically already said a Master's was more important (#2758850), but I forgot to mention one important detail:
Carnegie Mellon offers a 1-year Master's program in e-Business!
Also, a PhD in Computer Science gets you LESS salary in the long run, even less than a BS.
I'm a 2000 man.
I hate college, if I could take the courses I need in a year or two years and chop out the two years of phys. ed humanities crap I'd be happy. College serves as nothing more than a place for post high schoolers to get away from mom and pop and drink alcohol... at least for the technical people.
(The parent was moderated down as flamebait, and rightfully so)
Wait 'til you find out that you'll need to know REAL SUBJECTS like MATH and PHYSICS to get a degree.
Figured it out already. Also have figured out how much of that I use in real life. Nada. I sometimes use the tech writing part, but that's about it. Calculus? Useless to me. Thermodynamics? Pointless. If it wasn't for the valuable life lessons I learned in college (like don't mix beer and liquor), I can pretty much count it a waste.
Don't get me wrong, I wish you the best, but I like how the world cycles around and Degrees are important once again.
Are they now? Funny that no one in my particular programming shop has one (well, maybe one person), and we're all doing quite well. That's due to the fact we do our jobs with a high level of quality, not because we have some piece of paper on our walls.
I spent 6 years in college, and they were well spent. I survived the dot-com boom unscathed, never been unemployed one day in my life, and I get to do cool stuff.
Just by the mere fact you used "cool stuff" in a sentence indicates you're a young pup. I've never been unemployed a day in my working life that wasn't by choice, and actually even those days were paid for by vacation. No degree, just lots of experience.
Some day you're going to come to the same realization that a lot of people have, and that's that your little piece of paper has very little to do with your career. It's the experience you gain and the choices you make. Sure, that paper may get you in a few places more than without it. However, if you don't have the savvy, the work ethic, or the experience to handle the job, that piece of paper will be following you right out the door.
Electronic Frontier Foundation for online civil rights information
I'm in similar situation. I've got 6 years of VB programming (application development) and I would like to move to software engineering. I'm one class into my masters and still am not sure I've got the talent or if a masters in CS will give me the knowledge I need to have a software engineering job.
I have realized a few things along the way. What is it that you want to do? If it's application development then get your M$ certs and make more money that way. If you want to get into something like AI or Crypto (IMHO) your better off with a formal education. God knows I'll never use a binary search tree in Visual Basic. Everything you need to know you can get from a book (or a few books) school is jumping through the hoops and making connections in the industry.
A B.S. is designed to make you an educated person while teaching you a skill. If you just want the skill, get the certs and take classes at Productivity Point (no offence to them). Are you moving jobs? Are you willing to take a pay cut if your doing something new? Seems to me that if your good at what you do and want to move to management, get a business degree.
A masters will round out your education, hone your skills, turn you into a professional. I've got very few skills to hone but I'm hoping I can catch up.
Getting a degree is difficult, if it weren't everyone would have one. If you've got the skills you say you have, school should be easier but it's going to take just a long. And the calc and history classes won't be fun.
Hang in there and remember you only get out what you put in. Good luck.
and it has definitely had an impact on my career. Let me explain:
I'm 44 and am currently where I've been for the past 5 years, IT manager for a small manufacturing company. I took some of the first computer classes US high schools offered, way back in 1974-76 when programming projects got sent out to the local bank's mainframe for compilation and execution. My first IT job was as programmer trainee for a small service bureau too cheap to pay a living wage (thus no one with any training or experience would touch them) where I stayed for a year and a half, working on IBM S/34 minicomputers. Did my first microcomputer work on CP/M systems (Exidy Sorcerer! Woo-hoo!) and IBM Datamasters in '77 or '78. From there to another S/34 shop, then to a larger one that was both bleeding edge in PCs and networking as well as moving to the (then new) IBM S/38. Worked on S/34, S/38, Apple II & III, CP/M, and IBM PC systems there for 8 years, then moved to a larger company using IBM AS/400 and more PCs with networking, in a mixed mainframe/mini/PC environment over an international WAN. Consulted for a while, now here. I have extensive mainframe, minicomputer and PC experience, program in a bundle of languages (including C, Java, a variety of aassemblers, etc.), and my networking goes back to Banyan Vines and Lantastic days, not to mention early X.25, etc. I'm no computer god by any means, but I've been around and always got excellent or outstanding reviews.
I never noticed lacking a degree until I turned 35 or so -- and why should I have? Most companies discourage the sharing of salaries. I was happy to be making a good wage and didn't know until later that my peers were getting 20% more than I was, even with half my experience. For a variety of reasons I'm not terribly thrilled where I am but I believe I'm pretty well stuck here: in two years of searching I've found very few companies interested in my skills and experience. When I go for a job in competition with someone a few years out of college, just married or no family, I lose every time, long before anyone gets to talking about salaries. At my age, lack of a degree is almost a poison pill in my career -- so much so that I'm currently attending college to get one, something I should have done long ago (if I could have afforded to.) When I was just out of high school, college aid was a lot harder to get than it is today and I couldn't afford college on my own (and stepfather was blunt: don't even ask me to cosign a tuition loan, kid. Oh, and when are you moving out? Saturday good for you?) Now, take advantage of what's out there and get a degree. Any degree: CS is obviously best if that's the career you want but any degree is better than none.
can help. ;-)
As you have aptly demonstrated, you don't need a degree to do programing work. So why do you want the degree?
You obviously don't want the degree for the knowledge. What you want are credentials. Unfortunately, a degree is considered a magic ticket in our society. You can only get so far without it. So I do understand your desire to get it over with as quickly as possible.
You are making a mistake that so many other engineers, scientists, and techies make concerning college. Namely, there is more to college than your major. You seem to think that you currently DO know enough to progress in your career because of your work experience and your self-study of the field. There is a very good reason that all university degrees require a spectrum of coursework for a bachelor's degree. It provides balance.
If all you know is CS, then that is all you will be. You are 5 years into a 40+ year career. The skills and knowledge you will need as you go are going to change dramatically as you go. If you stay with a company, then your need for subjects like english and business are going to increase and your need for your technical skills will decrease. Exposure to the arts and the sciences is increasingly valuable because it gives you debth and understanding of the world around you. It makes it easier to communicate and relate to those outside your niche. A knowledge of history is useful, if for no other reason, than to teach you that there are patterns and themes to life at both the personal and societal level.
If all you want is a pass to the next level of the game, I am sure you will find some way to get that piece of paper in about a year.
But if you want more; if you want breadth of knowledge and scope and debth, don't cheat yourself. Take and enjoy every course you need for your degree. You never know what piece is the key to what you really need.
Good luck.
I.V.
"These laws they're passing won't even compile anymore, let alone execute." - anon
I faced an almost identical problem recently but managed to work around going back for (another) BS. Assuming you have a bachelors (which you imply through ommission, making a point of having "no formal CS education"), getting into and finishing a Master's program is probably your ideal path.
This is, in fact, not terribly difficult. Most programs don't exactly leep for joy over people with primarily work experioence, but if you are willing to take 4-6 undergrad level classes, or demonstrate competence in them by test) and can do reasonably well on the GRE Computer Science Subject Test (brush up on your theory!), you can get into mid-range schools without a lot of difficulty.
There are quite a few benefits of going straight to a master's degree as well: an MSCS is *very* respected on a resume, managers generally give more credit to a Master's than it warrants (unless they have one, and MBA's don't count), it is generally a much shorter program (9-12 classes compared to 24-32 for a BS) and doesn't force you to take the assorted crap you are not interested in (disclaimer: I hold an undergrad degree in English, and believe in a LA education, if done right it is the best thing for you - most people use the flexibility to avoid challenge though, and they discredit it), and finally, the MS classes tend to be a whole lot more interesting than undergrad classes, and the students and profs are a lot more interested in learning/teaching than the typical undergrad.
I wish you luck.
-Frums
The reason why you're forced to take GenEd classes at a university is because they want to graduate a well rounded individual, not just a person who knows how to code. If a person has a Bachelor's Degree in Computer Science from an accredited university, an employer can pretty safely assume that not only does this person know how to code, but can also read well, study, write reports, and is educated in general.
So, doing all that in a year is not going to happen. Perhaps a Bachelor's Degree is not what you're looking for?
Your reality is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. - Baron Munchausen
Looks like somebody needs to go back to school. You're taking exponents, not halves. 4 + 50% = 6
6 + 50% = 9
9 + 50% = 13.5
13.5 + 50% = 19.25
Still fairly respectible, but not quite exponential.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
1 semester of Trig
1 year of Calc
1 year of statistics
1 semester of discrete mathmatics
-- Knowing too much can get you killed, but knowing who knows too much can make you rich.
There is a major difference between what is taught in Computer Science programs and what is taught in certification classes and the thousands technology books that line the shelves of the Barnes and Noble. CS programs are designed to teach you the theoretical concepts that will allow you to tackle any technology-related program - no matter what the programming language, operating system, etc. is. Thus ,the true value of the degree is not the specific technologies a student has been exposed to in his 4 years, but the more theoretical concepts he is exposed to (operating system concepts, programming language theory, all the mathematical stuff, etc.). There is no way that you can fully absorb all of this stuff in a year with a mythical one year, "fast track" CS degree.
I am a product of a CS program and teach CS at a major University and - I might get slapped by my colleagues for saying this - you do not necessarily have to obtain a CS degree to be a good technologist. I have hired a number of good tech people that did not have CS degrees and some of them have been very successful, "climbing the corporate" ladder in the technology sector. With that said, there'd be no reason to fast track a CS degree anyway- take your time with it. If you're happy with your job now, stick with it and earn your degree along the way. If you're good at what you do, your current employer is well aware of it - CS degree or not.
Look no further, your question has been answered here.
How come you haven't heard of it already, I'm getting these offers almost every day...
And not a degree in Software Engineering? When I went to school only a few places had SE degrees and I was unaware of the differences. But based on my experiences, I think a program with less theory (not that theory is bad, I use it almost daily)and more on applications and processes would be better suited to someone with lots of experience. There is, it seems, a tendency for CS projects to be built in isolation while SE explicitly focuses on a team concept (and business processes as well), much more useful. If there is a good SE program available near your location you may want to look into it before going CS.
.02 USD.
As an analogy, CS is to SE as Physics is to Mechanical or Electrical Engineering.
my
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Even with the prospect of a few years of school, I would still pursue it. I'm graduating with a degree in Electrical Engineering in May. I'm 39 years old, I've worked in the industry for years and I felt the same way that you do about my future job prospects. I managed to work between 30 and 40 hours a week (I have an understanding employer), go to school full time and maintain a 3.2 GPA. No, it's not easy, but the rewards could be worth it...I have a great job waiting for me at the end.
What I keep telling people is that what I learned in college was how to solve problems. Not what all of the answers are. I have encouraged a number of people to get degrees (my wife included) and this is the main reason. I think that what college teaches is basic multi-disipline problem solving. I don't really think that the area of study that important. I think we all know people in the IT industry with biology or business degrees.
Sorry, human resources doesn't give two shits about your ability to code "Hello World" in assembler. The ideal career path for most programmers is to start as a code monkey, then analyst, and then become a dept/project manager.
... (ie China, India)
To do that you will need at a minimum of a MBA. You can't assume that you will be a master coder 25 years from now, which you will need something else to fall back on.
Programmers are a dime a dozen
OK, I hope you just haven't had your coffee yet today -- your math's a little off: $4 to start + 50% increase != $8 (that would be a 100% increase) The progression should be: 4 6 9 13.5 20.25 ...
Still, I find that hard fathom, realistically. On the other hand, I myself started in a tech job at $9 an hour (ISP tech support) and I'm happy to say my increase has stayed close to the same curve (although not linearly).
That's the beauty of the tech world -- your skills ARE more valued than your degree (mine's in Analytic Philosophy) -- but to a point. Lacking a degree of any sort will hinder you beyond a certain level. But that degree doesn't have to be in CS.
On the other hand, as has been discussed here many times before, it can be just as difficult to continue to "move up" if you want to do nothing but code. -- But I'll leave that to the other /.er's
Toganet
Try something like the University of Phoenix or Averett College where they give credit for live experience. Don't be discouraged by those who don't want you to get the degree the quick way. It is like an old boys club. They just want you to pay your dues in a manner at least as tough as they paid theirs. As for paying dues, I know multitudes of people without degrees that are more intelligent than those with degrees. While in the military I worked with many who spent four years in a drunken stupor, graduated with a whopping 2.3 GPA and now thumb their nose at non-graduates. Sorry to say but I think you are going to have to spend the time it takes to get a degree. At least with something like Averett or University of Phoenix you can get it done by going to school, many time "on line" 1 night a week for a period of 18-24 months.
Fuzzy Gopher
You presume that because you have are good at computer programming, you can easily finish a CS degree in one year - in essence, you propose that you know pretty much all that a CS major knows. But what is taught in a CS degree is FAR DIFFERENT than what you know having programmed for however many years. This also is precisely the reason why your advancement potential MAY be limited because you DON'T have a CS degree - the business world recognizes the difference.
Let's face it, the IT world is changing and it seems that the "sense of worth" measurement has changed from "how much money you make" to "how many books you've written", "how many technical patents you have" and/or "where you got your MS from". One might say, "It's hip to be square".
I leaped into an IT career with only an AS degree in Information Systems. Quickly, I found myself writing programs in a variety of languages and designing solutions for "a major corporation" (I can't speak for the salary increases like this guy, but I was doing okay). Eventually, I found myself 29 years old and swimming in a pool of PhD colleagues.
I considered myself to be a reasonably smart guy. I too, attempted to go back to school in hunt of a CS degree, but the *ahem* calc requirements alone crushed my plans (I still get chills even typing c-a-l-c). Additionally, I found no quick way to accomplish this task. Working all day and schooling at night and on weekends really does a job on your hairline. So, I settled for a BS in Management of Technology (which was still no joke to obtain). I am currently finishing my MS in Computer Information Systems (I know, I know.. a degree for computer people that CAN'T handle the math) However, <shameless plug> I currently hold 2 technical patents, numerous publications/presentations, and I am working on a book that no one will find useful </shameless plug>
I guess the moral of the story is: if it could be done in a year and was a "cakewalk", everyone would have a CS degree. Further, don't let that piece of paper undermine your ability to accomplish other tasks.
This has been said already in this forum, but I think it worth pointing out again.
The difference between tech school and college is tech school teaches you how to do a particular task, and college teaches you how to think about things.
When you go to college and take your first CS class, I think you'll be surprised at how inapplicible all your years of on-the-job programming experience actually are. A real CS program at an accredited school is not interested in churning out programmers which will succeed in the business world, as would be a tech school. Rather, they are interested in producing individuals who have the capacity to solve problems which haven't been even described yet. People who can look at a problem and see multiple ways to solve it. People that are adaptable.
Of course, schools don't always succeed in this lofty task, but that's not the point. The thing for you to remember is that higher education, in and of itself, is worth quite a lot more than the piece of paper you get at the end. Do not take a college CS class and worry yourself with, "how will this class help me in my next job," you will drive yourself nuts. The benefits are a little more abstract than that, but also more rewarding.
I really shouldn't be one to talk: I don't have a degree myself. I attended University of Minnesota pursuing a IT/CS degree for 2 1/2 years before getting lured into the business world, never to return and finish my degree. I can tell you this though, the knowledge I gained from my time in college definitely, without question, puts me ahead of those people with only tech school or no higher education.
DaC
Bill Gates dropped out of college and now he's the wealthiest man on the planet. A degree can open some doors for you, but so can gumption and hard work.
It's doubtful that any university with a degree that will open doors will look kindly on a request such as yours. It's not so much the time as the MONEY they get from you over a 3-4 year period. That's really what they're after. At many prestigious schools in the US, that's $20-30K per year just for tuition (sometimes even more).
If the degree means something to you, apply to a school that you like and just do it. If you're using it as a tool to get ahead, you may be able to get just as much out of a pile of industry certifications and some management courses at your local college/university (if they will let you take them without being a matriculated student).
Personally, I thought college was somewhat useless in terms of teaching me "book smarts," but rather valuable in teaching me how to deal with people.
Good luck!
Just another ivy league coward.
That's why my wonderful CS lab instructor killed one of my grades for using: variable++; instead of variable += 1;, yet then insisted we should start using variable++; the next week because it was the 'right' thing to do.
Right?
So what, they decided to teach me the wrong way to code first?
Fnord - I'll stick to my two year degree, and I'll stick with instructors who actually have real fscking jobs. People who aren't fifty years old and out of touch with reality.
If you have no college degree at all, then this advice won't help.
...
But
If you have a bachelor's degree in anything, and your application looks decent (good enough undergraduate GPA and/or good real life experience), you might be able to get into a graduate program in computer science.
I was accepted by the University of Wisconsin at Madison's program with a B.S. in Physics and an M.S. in Math. My fellow graduate students had bachelor's degrees in English, teaching, French, all sorts of stuff. The department head's bachelor's degree was in philosophy. Later (at Bell Labs), I worked for a guy with an M.S. in CS, and a B.A. in French horn (music). All of us had programming experience as undergraduates, some classroom based, some not.
The UW CS program was tailored to this. There were a number of senior/graduate level classes; it was common to take a full semester of those, "catching up" on topics such as operating systems, compilers, and database management systems. (But we were expected to learn C from a couple of evening sessions, and our hands weren't held learning Unix, either.)
Forget the theory/practice dichotomy if you go to the right school. We learned a lot of theory. We also wrote many thousands of lines of C and Pascal code (back in the day when the Bell Labs "portable" C compiler was 5,000 lines long).
Two caveats:
This was back in 1979-1981. I expect CS graduate programs still take good candidates with bachelor's degrees in other subjects, but I can't guarantee it.
We worked hard. (I made a lot of 3 a.m. trips for donuts, and to the Coke machine in the student ACM lounge.) Don't think you can do this part time in a year!
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
I'm a computer scientist now, but I've been very interested in medicine since I was about 8. I watch those emergency room reality shows on Discover Channel and ER every week.
While I can probably become a nurse's aid, I see myself hitting a brick wall in the medical field if I don't have an M.D.. Does anybody know of a fast-track medical degree that I can obtain in a year or so? I really want to be a doctor.
The American Institute for the Computer and Information Sciences is a correspondence based school. The curriculm in my experience is well thought out and the quality of the education is top notch. It is a completely rounded degree (meaning it is more than a simple programming school) and I have found that businesses tend to treat it like any other degree. I highly reccomend it in your case. It will grant credit based on "life experience" to recognize the value of the experience you have already gained.
http://www.accis.edu
Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!
I don't know about U of A, but University of Phoenix is nearly all web-based, though not exclusively.
I highly doubt that it's possible to complete a cs degree in 1 year. The number of cs courses alone that I have to take for my degree would fill a solid 2 years (at 12 courses per year) if I were to take nothing else. Most schools would require some amount of math/science and liberal arts as well (I would hope!). But good luck in your search for it...
--
silence is poetry.
At Windsor, it is not focused on programming. I have ONLY had 3 REAL programming classes. And even though you may be able to easily get credit / pass these classes, it is the others that will set you back a few years.
These classes include topics that I am sure you are knowledgeable: data types; induction and recursion and some that you may not: algebraic characterization; syntax; semantics; formal logic; soundness, completeness, and decidability; specification, implementation, and determinism; complexity
And that is the first class. A quick list of other non-programming topics:
Computer Languages, Grammars, and Translators
Including: both pragmatic and theoretical aspects of grammars, recognizers, and translators for computer languages. Regular languages: regular expressions, regular grammars, finite-state machines (automata), regular language recognizers, automatic regular-language-recognizer generator: lex. Context-free languages: context-free grammars and pushdown automata (stack machine), LL grammars and top-down recognition and parsing: LL(1) and recursive-descent parsers, LR grammars and bottom-up recognition and parsing: LR(0), SLR(1), LR(1), and LALR(1) parsers. Automatic context-free-language parser generator: YACC. Attribute grammars, syntaz-directed translation, computer-language processors: interpreters and compilers.
Theoretical Foundations of Computer Science
Including: propositional logic, first order logic, proof techniques, mathematical induction, sets, operations on sets, relations, operations on relations, functions, countable and uncountable sets, basic definitions in graph theory, connectivity, isomorphism of graphs, trees, Euler graphs, Hamilton graphs, planar graphs, graph colouring
File Structures
Including: performance differences between primary and secondary storage; secondary storage devices; fundamental file structures; sequential files; indexing; B trees; B+ trees; index sequential files; hashing; sorting and searching techniques on secondary storage devices.
Computer System Organisation
Including: Examination of the fundamentals of modern computer organization and architecture. Historical development. The computer system in terms of interconnection structures, memory, I/O and operating system software. CPU structure and function, including numeric representations, instruction sets, addressing modes and formats. Control unit. Alternate architectures and performance enhancement.
Those are just the basic classes that you need to know before you can take the challenging stuff. This is on Top of the "other" classes you must take, The Maths (Calc, Alg, Stats, Fundamentals of Math) your Social Sciences, etc.
But don't worry about all of that, you will have those 3 programming classes out of the way!
But I managed to sneak my 8-credit subject exam in chemistry in for their dumb chem class. I guess the secretary liked me.
Iowa State's engineering program also would not accept clep for any science exams - just liberal arts credits.
Stupid policies. Inane schools. I don't miss them.
You're missing the boat entirely. You might be able to breeze through some of your CS courses, but you won't be able to fulfill all of the requirements for the degree in 1 year: what about all of the math that goes along with a BS in CS?? Many CS degree programs require enough mathematics to earn a minor in it. Not to mention all of the "basics" you'll have to take as well (e.g. English composition, possibly a history course, etc.).
One thing is for certian: a degree will pay off in the long run. It is a general fact that those with degrees earn more throughout their carrers than those without 'em; master's and doctoral level salaries are respectively higher. There are, however, exceptions to this rule.
You'll quickly find out that computer science has very little to do with programming. When I did my CS, some of the better programmers flunked out and went into other things.
:))
Computer Science is about science. Pure and simple. It's about mathematics and theory. To many CS people, Calculus is a breeze. Or what I call "The Easy Math" that is usually required in first year. You'll take as much (if not more) math in your CS degree. Subjects like logic, set theory, finite mathematics, linear algebra, number theory, etc. On their own, these courses can be easy.... but if you have 5 or 6 other courses, programming assignments that you work on until 3am, and all the other things in Univerity, you quickly begin to have respect for computer science grads.
Of course this depends on the school
I ditched a rather expensive 4 (5, actually, a year of forced internship, which was actually a good idea - get some experience.) year school for a quick 2-year AS program (I'll probably snag a BS down the line.)
Why?
I got sick of the crap. The height of our programming courses involved creating simulated elevators in java. And not with fun, happy graphics - it was just a plain, text based elevator simulation.
Do you know what an elevator simulation is? I'm willing to be you don't, or you can at least put two and two together and say, "What - the - fsck?!"
..Then they taught us VB, and insisted it was the wave of the future.
I like my lil 2 year program. They're teaching us Cobol. Yes, sounds bad, but around here, knowing how to *spell* Cobol will start you off at $50k/year. C/C++ is on the curriculum, as is SQL and general database theory.
And one of my teachers actually spoke about Linux in class. The amazement - that would've never happened at my old 4-year school.
so 0 X .5 = 0 X .5 = 0 X .5 = 0 X .5 = 0 X .5 = 0
He's making $0 that's why he wants to advance!
Assemble a porfolio which shows your coding abilities and use that as a sales tool. Any prospective employer who disregards this doesn't want you for your ability to code. Their ability to sell your skills to their customer base is probably determined by your education level, not by what you are capable of producing. If you are good, follow my advice. If you are not, go get your degree, and sell your soul.
Funny how not one comment here has been mod'd as Funny !
I've work for several employers, some of whom are world leaders in their fields, and I've never been asked to provide proof of any qualifications.
So one option may be to claim that you already have as CS degree, the chances are that no one will ever check.
Because getting a real degree means devoting 4 to 5 years of your life to concentrating on the development of your intelect. You simply can't demonstrate that level of persistence and dedication in 1 year.
Simple people talk of people, better people talk of events, great people talk of ideas.
I work with people that have "Years" of experience yet they dont understand that there is any value in planning our systems, doing design docs (to help future coders), or cost/benefit analysis. This is what having a degree gets you. I still have to argue with my boss as to why we should implement a new fangled relational database system instead of a simple flat file!!!! Fucking unbelieveable!!!
As a mathematician-turned-programmer who's also been programming since the age of 12 (which adds up to a few more years total in my case) and as somebody who's seen a LOT of badly written code in my time, I can tell you that a couple of years' worth of college-level mathematics courses will make you a much better programmer. Here's a few courses you should definitely have under your belt:
* Calculus (usually 3 semesters)
* Linear Algebra
* Discrete Mathematics (generally a mixed bag with some combinatorics and graph theory)
and of course any prerequisites to the courses above that you didn't get in high school.
In addition, here's some courses that would be useful, some in particular areas:
* Abstract algebra
* Number theory
* Geometry (not high-school geometry)
* Real analysis (sometimes called advanced calculus)
Good luck--it'll be worth it.
Really interesting! I'm in the same exact situation... I started programming at a young age (10 yrs old) and now I'm 25. I went to school in the medical field, so I don't have a formal CS degree... although I am employed as a software developer, I am going to need advancement in my career soon.
Since I've been doing this since a child, all those programming years in my mind count toward my total experience. I truly *know* how these systems work, probably more than somebody with a degree, simply on the principle that I'm self taught and had to discover how these systems work, rather than being told how they work.
Believe it or not, but in my daily experiences with CS professionals, self taught individuals are usually more competent and knowledgeable than those with formal CS education.
I'm hoping to find a fast track to a degree also.
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
There are a lot of aspects to the field that haven't changed much in the last 20-30 years. For example:
Schools should zero in on stuff that doesn't change, and leave OSI, Linda, M68000 asm, Encore Multimax Unix, and all the rest of that useless cruft that I had to learn completely out of the curriculum.
Hey! I consider myself to be one of those "technical people" and I'm a "Momma's Boy" (So, I STILL cut her lawn) College was GREAT. I lived in a diverse dorm with CS majors, Math majors, Philosophy majors, and a guy who was just plain crazy. Where else can you learn about Unix, build a "Tone-Dialer", learn to play Dominos, AND ponder the meaning of life? Programming assignments were considered a FUN puzzle! I learned more from that dorm than all my classes put together. FYI: I didn't JUST drink alcohol... the pot was pretty good too! :)
I'm also of the opinion that the BS degree is the best way to go. I learned a lot in school beyond multiple inheritance :)
;)
Getting a degree shows your employer that you can put up with bullshit, that you can suck it up and succeed in an antiquated system full of egos and morons...a system not unlike the business world.
but you never know, maybe I'm just rationalizing all that money I spent
dynamo
I recently went through a very similar struggle. I had been a field engineer for one of the leading enterprise systems management tool vendors for years. I established a solid reputation and was courted by many of the large players in the market. The salaries they were offering were outstanding. But, they couldn't offer me a career path moving forward beyond my current role. Why? No CS degree. I found this to be ridiculous.
This is what I did.
I quit. I started my own small consulting company (enough to pay the bills) and I am going back to school. Why? College is where it is at. Class will bore the hell out of you but the academic community is a great place to take your skills to the next level.;
"I think that I can easily complete a CS degree in 1 year."
HAHAHHAH!
I think that is about the most arrogant statement I've ever read on Slashdot.
what? do you have like a 175 IQ and only need 1 hour of sleep every 24 hours?
I don't know about others, but my Computer Science and Engineering degree was so much more challenging than anything I've seen in the "real world" it makes work seem like a picnic.
Any degree you could get in a year isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
You might look into getting a Master's Degree from the Harvard Extension school. They have a Master's of Arts in Information Technology that you can take primarily over the internet. I've taken some of the classes and they are really good. You would have to spend one session at Harvard, but if you take the summer session that would only be about a month and a half.
http://www.extension.harvard.edu/almit/
Simple, it is an opinion in opposition to the previous post! Remember this is Slashdot! You must submit to the collective.
I'll put my skills up against your six years in college swilling cheap booze and playing grab-ass with the frat boys anytime.
Degree's are still unimportant in the industry for those that can do the work. For those that can't, there is always Business Administration (or "How To Embezzle: 101").
-
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
I'm in a similar position, except that I'm now 28. I have a liberal arts degree, and have been coding since 1981 - I was seven.
.com meltdown.
I'm still making a six figure salary in Chicago, despite the
It seems that you don't want to retire a coder. The key, as you know - is to gradually get yourself out of coding jobs. The first steps are to project management. PHB's love their project managers to have technical experience, they like this more then a CS degree. A business degree with tech experience is the gold standard.
Instead of going back to school for a CS undergrad, look at MBA's. You can usually take an MBA with an undergrad arts degree. You can also fast track an MBA into two years. Hell, you could do an "executive MBA" in two monthes, but that's jus silly.
An MBA will also prime you for a senior management position like CTO.
_Am
I went to an Institute(RPI) not a university.
anyways,according to the core curriculium 85% of my classes were engineering, I only had 2 free electives(i took a lot more). Granted my first year had some multidiscplinary SCIENCE courses(statics physics chem), the vast majority of my classes were EE(probably 60%), that is 3-4 out of the 5-7 classes I would take a semester(for all you at RPI the 4x4 is rubbish if you started in 95-97, there is NO way you can graduate in 4 years like that since courses aren't offered all the time.
CS on the other hand was primarily multidiscplinary, 1-2 courses CS related a semster, the rest humanities or general science. Hence a decent number of engineers who couldn't hack it switched to CS as it was easier(less classes/work) or quit school.
On the upside, eitherway you will be unlikely to serve on a jury, lawyers don't like engineers/scientists as you are trained to think methodically/logically/rationaly. They like to sway your emotions despite the fact that FACTS are supposed to rule a case. Thats not to say you will not get called up for jury duty just that when you are, you are more likely to be dismissed(based on my own personal experience).
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
I agree completely with the above comment. There
is more to a CS degree then just the technical
part. If the technical part is all you want, you
can just study and take the exams. Or, pay a
few bucks and attend a 2-year technical school.
But a CS degree rounds you out. You get history,
English, Math and other stuff that will help you
in life when your programming skills start to
erode.
A CS degree represents to an employer the fact
that you ENDURED and SURVIVED; not that you just
have technical knowledge. This means a lot to
them; and if you EVER want to move up to a
management position, someone with a BS degree
will definately be promoted, or kept if there
is a downturn. The techie guy will be on the
street.
And yes, the trouble to get a CS degree is a
pain-- I had to study Higher Math and Advanced
Physics because the CS department came under
the Physics department. But, it was worth it.
I've worked for the CS dept of a university for 7 years as a sysadm, researcher, and research assistant so I know a bit about CS degrees. In every case I've seen, someone coming from industry to CS has gaps in their knowledge. I'm sure you are a bright guy but being self taught you probably have great depth of knowledge in areas you have used and suprisingly large gaps in other areas. It will take some time and effort to cover all the areas they expect you to master. With your background some of your courses will be slam dunks but others will kick your butt. It probably wouldn't be that hard for you to pass all the CS classes in a year except the second issue, core courses. You have to take English, History, Political Science, Math, lab science, and a few other odds and ends before you can get your Bachelor's degree. In grad school you can concentrate on just your major but in undergrad they make you take all the stuff you had in high school. Some of these classes might even be hard and take a lot of time away from your CS classes. If you really want a degree the best thing would probably be to take as many core and introductory courses as you can online or as night classes at a junior college then finish up your CS classes at a good university. If your ultimate goal is a MS or PhD than you shold get whatever bachelor's degree that will be the quickest so you can get into grad school sooner. If you get a MS in CS than whatever you get as a bachelor's degree won't matter much and some employers will even like it being different making you a more "rounded" individual. Whatever you decide to do, good luck!
And no, there are no good schools in Florida, sorry. I received my Bachelor's of Comp. Sci from UCF (University of Central Florida). They are not great, but they are good. Definite emphasis on computer theory without the degree being nothing but computer theory (like some other colleges I could mention).
My father's in the medical profession, nursing to be specific. He's got the equivalent of an AS.
He has the credit hours (Due to job-related/required additional courses) to have an MS.
He can't get one though.
Why?
Because - no one wants to just hand you a degree because you have the courses.
They *do* want you to sit there for another few years so they can make money.
It holds true no matter what your field of study is - colleges aren't educational instutitions so much as they are capitalist businesses. For a large sum of money, they provide you with a piece of paper that allows you to make more money in many cases.
There's really little education involved.
In Finland, the higher education system has been designed so that there are no minimum residence requirements, nor do you have to attend classes in most CS courses. The record time for a Master's degree at the Helsinki University of Technology is about two years. A significant percentage of CS students go to work the year round. Despite claims to the contrary, the system seems to work well for the best students, giving them a combination of theoretical and practical knowledge. Alternatively, you could get 2 degrees simultaneously, etc. After all, why sit in classes if you think you can study more productively at home reading a book? Studies have shown that hearing somebody talk is an extremely ineffective way of disseminating knowledge.
Actually, both rates of increase are exponential. His was exponential with a mantissa of 2, yours is exponential with a mantissa of 1.5
;)
The one thing I learned in college that seems to place me above other programmers is the Math. I went to Clarkson, which is a heavy EE school, and the dif-EQ and statistics classes taught me things that I use in everyday programming that other devlopers just do NOT understand. Mostly in analyizing performance statistics etc...
Krispy Cream is people
I have two bachelors degrees (Editorial Journalism and Geology), and I'm looking at heading back to school for a M.S.
I currently work for a consulting firm as a field geologist, with a hefty dose of systems administration on the side (NT/2000 webservers; Linux development servers, and a creaky old DEC Alpha .
I'd like to ditch the geology, and move into a sysadmin position full time. Certs are easy to come by with independent learning and some hands-on practice.
My question is; do I really need a formal CS degree to advance in the admin/support field? I'm an okay perl and vb programmer, but I've never had formal training.
Do employers in the IT industry actually care what your degree is? Is a MS in Info Systems or an MBA a better idea?
I completely agree.. I did not complete my engineering degree, but the time I spent working on it was very valuable nonetheless. Any Joe Coder can read CS books and gain the necessary intelligence to do a job, but a good university program also teaches you the wisdom to know how and when to apply what you've learned. Some of this can be learned by practical on-the-job application, but I tend to find that people with an engineering/science degree tend to find their niche in a new position faster than someone self-taught. A self-taught coder tends to learn how to do things well "their way" and has difficulty adapting to the requirements of a client or maintaining focus on a project not directly in their line of focus. Of course, these are enormous generalizations and will vary widely depending on the nature of the person, but this is my experience.
In addition, the engineering classes I took weren't really valuable for the formulae and math. I found them valuable for the problem-solving skills they taught. I don't believe even science degrees approach this sort of problem solving, and I find that those with some sort of engineering background (or a "hard" science like Physics) generally make for better programmers, administrators and architects of IT shops.
For the work environment, be purely practical in your pursuit of education.
I have a CompE degree; I am also an Oracle OCP. The Oracle credentials offer much higher salaries - no two ways around it.
Oracle doesn't teach you much about metaphysics, literature, history, or communication though. You may find yourself needing some of these subjects.
ps - Do budget major augmentations to your skillset every five years, either way.
If you started out a normal starting rate, it means you're making almost 300k/year.
Anybody out there in the real world care to comment how likely that a 24 year old w/ no CS degree is taking home 150/hour as a consulting rate nowadays? Now you want a CS degree in one year? I think ./ got trolled.
Oh, and 13.5 * 1.5 = 20.25, not 19.25.
It's CLEP.
I had to quit my job and move back to California because of my father's health. I had a great job, but no diploma. The job market sucks right now, so I'm thinking of moving in with my dad and finishing my degree. Two problems though:
... it all looks bleak.
1) money
2) money
I'm used to the luxury of a fat IT paycheck which I won't be able to pull in if I go back to school full time. I have lived through hard times before, but damned if I'll do that again. I really don't have any options but to apply for financial aid and work some menial job while getting an education. And all this added to the fact I'm much older than the average student
Anyone have any ideas on how I can make money and get an education in this job market (aside from selling drugs)... drop me a line.
I think the karma police are after me
In my experience, CS degrees don't always result in someone that can efficiently program practical applications. I work in the IT "online" department of a major telecommunications company. We have a fairly large staff of developers programming in a variety of languages, and while most (if not nearly all) have degrees, most of those degrees are not in computer science.
In fact, our most prominent developers and those in the higher architectural positions either have engineering degrees or some of the more difficult science degrees like physics.
CS, as a science degree, teaches you the science behind computing, as you state. It shows you different algorithms for solving problems, but is largely theoretical in nature and heavy in math. In the real world, you need to know a lot more than this to apply your work efficiently to real-world applications, and I find that engineering degrees tend to breed people that are better at applying what they've learned to build something efficient and robust than scientists do.
The bottom line: Knowing the science behind programming is not enough. You need to be strong in areas that promote efficiency and application in order to use what you know. Otherwise you will forever be a programmer at the bottom of the corporate food chain.
My two cents, anyway. Your experiences may vary.
You could have lot of experience and programming skills but doesn't mean you deserve a CS degree.
What about all those math courses?
I only went to the first 2 weeks of my engineering stats class (calc based). It was all the way across campus, it was fall with a nasty winter, most of the grade was based on the final, and I hated the class. I learned the entire semester in about 8 hrs of cramming for the final and aced the final(highest grade in the class). 6 months later, I couldn't remember any of it. The class was worthless to me.
Part of the time spent is to give it time to sink in and hopefully give you the understanding of the subject, not just the ability to do the work.
between:
CS, MIS, IS, IT?
Manga, Hentai, Anime?
This
Used to be that the grandaddy of the "non traditional" degrees was Regents College, now Excelsior College. They give extensive credits for "life experience" and also offer a number of exams under ACT:PEP.
http://drteknikal.blogspot.com/
My CS degree didn't teach me any particular skill that has been practical in my software development career. Nonetheless, as an employer, I continue to use the presence of a solid CS degree on a resume as a good indicator. It correlates very well with the likelihood that the candidate will be an excellent developer. But that doesn't mean that the degree taught that person anything useful about the development of software.
If you want a degree, get it for yourself, not for your career. You'll be a better person when you get done, but not a better programmer.
And BTW, stop saying that you can complete a CS degree in one year. It makes you sound clueless, not clueful.
Eric Sink
Software Craftsman
You're best doing it remotely, via post and internet and so on. The UK's Open University are experts at this - http://computing.open.ac.uk/home/
If you can find something like this near you - (actually I'm assuming you're an american - the OU itself generally is only open to EU citizens) it's perfect, because they are aimed at people who, for whatever reason, did not take a conventional undergrad degree. So they wil be interested in the fact that you have years of prcatical experience.
But it will take time. There's a reason undergrad degrees take 3 years - that's how much work there is in them. It'll take longer afterwards.
I think also you are possibly underestimating the importnace of your considerable experience! By which I mean, you may be surprised at how much of a CS degree will be entirely new to you.
One last suggestion - must it be a CS degree? Would, for example, an MBA work for you (anyone know if you can take those without a first degree?)
I ask as if you've got the Math you can probably leverage almost any undergrad degree into a Masters in CS. If all you want is the paper, then be prepared to fight dirty.
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
i would be interested in your perspective on the contrasts between this and a traditional education? how are group projects conducted? does this type of education impact the communication skills that would develop more naturally in an environment with more interaction?
for example: as an undergrad every class in my major had a group projet of sorts and a lot of them had presentations also. while this doesnt really apply directly to my major, it is important in the real world where you have to work with others.
-- john
Doh! Semantics on the exponent point, and very true on the math point. I abase myself before you. :-)
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
I went into college having coded for 10 years already, and that helped me burn any programing class, but there's a lot more to a CS degree than that. Calc I, II, III. Discrete Math I, II. Probability (and statistics). Three quarters of either engineering (university) physics, or lab (university) chemestry. Digitial Design, Computer Archatecture, electives, liberal arts...it goes on and on. There is no way this could be done in a year.
Try this one.
Algoma University is fully accredited and affiliated with Laurentian University in Canada. (Yes, I work for them. ;)
Jason.
from a read of //heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html I would suggest that the degree really isn't all that valuable (even for managers; Billy G ha no degree) compared to the cost of not being active in the industry for awhile (even a mere year). Personally, I see an inverse correlation between academic performance and professional advancement. Don't get off the track! And save your money, too, 'cause your time in the biz is getting short.
I started a part time degree when I was 28, this year (im 35 now) I completed it (1st class Hons, thank you...), this includes a 2 year break due to work problems. however, I would say that it would be difficult to complete in any shorter time... I'm not stupid, I started mucking about with these machines at 13(apple 2 and such) but the degree did fill in some blanks and put a more formal backbone on the knowledge I already had. I would dislike saying it couldnt be done, but would also say that any "degree" that could be completed in a year would probably not be taken seriously by most people...
If you are looking for a piece of paper to show your employer why don't you try calling Sally Struthers and see if she is still handing out degrees through her TV commercials.
Or you can get a degree like the rest of us with hard work, dedication and socializing on the weekends.
Can you honestly say that you have the people skills, the liberal arts knowledge to be able to effectivly talk to your clients? Do you think your clients care that you know how to program c++ inside and out? What they care about is that they can interact with you and that you have an understanding of their needs. Which is not the syntax of your programming language. More likely how your product is going to give them a nice ROI and will make their business process more manageable.
The University of Maryland University College, which I attend, has something called the Excel Program. Basically, it is a 3 hour class that will help you write a paper describing what you have done in your career and how it relates to the school's classes. A committee reviews your paper, and you can earn up to 27 credits plus 3 for the class, for a total of 30. That is about a quarter of the 120 you need for you degree. In addition, CLEP tests for your basic English, History, and Science courses can speed things up, at the cost of about $50 per test. Also, for more advanced courses (say, at the 300 and 400 level) you can take departmental exams for a course. Basically, you take the final exam, and if you get a C or higher, you get the credits, but no grade. They cost something too, but I forget how much right off hand. Doing all that has gotten 3 years of school crammed into 2 for me, and I almost have my BS in Information Systems Mgmt.
BigCat79
"The dead have risen and are voting Republican!" --Bart Simpson
A degree requires a lot more than some focused technical study. You would spend a vast majority of your undergraduate education doing things not directly related to CS. I think this is the real point of having a degree, it shows employers, investors and co-workers a broad background on which you make decisions. It would be pretty pointless to get a degree in 1 year even if you could. If your sole goal where to learn technical things self-taught experience works just fine. If your goals are of a broader nature, a degree is more appropriate. I would recommend not getting a CS degree at all, get it in something entirely diffrent, that really shows your tallent and skills. I when I hire am far less impressed by a CS graduate that knows their stuff than a math, philosophy, economics graduate that knows their stuff - I will always hire the philosophy graduate given two equally experienced and technically knowledgeable canidates. Then if you like persue a MSCS (typically no graduate school will require that you have a specific undergraduate degree so long as you where strong acedemically in whatever field you focused on).
The journey is worth more than the destination, hacker-san...
It may be a bit off topic, but the question I keep asking is "will getting paid more make you happy or happier?" Recently, I relocated to the east coast and found the a lack of a Bach CS degree was hindering my job hunt. Luckily, I'm employed again. Even though I read up on AI, algorithms, electrical engineering, distributed processing and other advanced theories on my own, I know my knowledge is still missing huge gaps. I considered getting a MS in CS, but finally decided it wouldn't make me any happier. The clincher was the realization I don't have what it takes to "play the politics game." I love programming and plan on coding the rest of my life (though not as a career). The thought of "kissing butt" for 2-3 years makes me cringe, so the choice was obvious. Plus, would you want to work for a company that cares more about a piece of paper than what you have to offer?
The argument that a degree is a better assurance of qualifications for a company is flawed on two fronts.
1. if the person interviewing you can't tell your skills without a degree, they probably don't understand the technical problems in the first place. Do you want to work for/with people who don't know?
2. As others have mentioned, people with advanced degrees trained in research have a different mind set than a programmer. Individuals great at both research and application development are rare. Each job requires a different way of thinking and working. You may want a researchers opinion about the architecture, but at the low levels an experienced programmer is what you need.
I'd look for a 5 year program that gives you a B.S. in Business and an MBA. This is probably the best way to 'round out your studies.
Let's see 5 years @ 50%/year
let's say you started at $30,000
$30k year 1
$45k year 2
$67k year 3
$101k year 4
$151k year 5
looks to me like you're doing just fine without the degree to me.
To move much higher either a degree won't mean a thing or you'll need a masters, a bachelors I don't think will cut it.
Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
CLEPT Test is CLEP Test Test.
Like writing "dollars" on your checks when it says "dollars" over there on the right. So you have "Ten and 0/100 dollars dollars."
It is a characteristic of any uneducated person
to assume that education is useless. To everyone
around, it is usually abundantly clear how
uneducated they are.
With what seems like confusion over what a CS degree really involves I thought I'd post my degree reqs. I am currently 2 semesters from graduating.
CORE:
Calculus 1
Calculus 2
Mechanics and Heat (physics 1)
-M&H Lab
Electricity and Magnetism (physics 2)
-E&M Lab
Science Elective (I took this cool geology course)
Politics & Values in Bus & Tech
Technical Communication
Rhetoric (English)
Government (Texas)
Government (US)
American Hist 1
American Hist 2
Exploration of Humanities
Ethics
MAJOR REQS:
CS 1 (C++ 1)
CS 2 (C++ 2)
Discrete Math 1
Discrete Math 2
Linear Algebra
Computer Organization (Assembly)
Prob & Stat in CS
Algorithm Analysis & Data Structures
Software Eng
Programming Languages
Computer Architecture
-Comp Arch LAB
Operating Systems
Adv. Algorithm Analysis
Automata Theory
Elective (took Unix)
Elective (took Computer Networks)
Elective (took Artificial Int.)
FREE ELECTIVES:
1 (upper lvl): Medieval Europe (Hist.)
2 (upper lvl): Roman Britain (Hist.)
3: Psychology
4: Micro. Economics
5: US & Asia Business Relations
6: Java Programming
7: Accounting (BOORRRING hehe)
If you notice there are only 2 elected and 3 required actual programming based classes: C++ 1 and 2, Comp Org (Assembly), Unix (elective) and Java (elective). I promise you a CS degree is more about math and logic than programming. Granted, in many classes (discrete, data structs, alg analysis, etc) you wrte pseudocode, but thats all. I will probably get an MSCE (not to be confused with an MCSE hehe) or MSCS after this, THEN, if the job requires it, some sort of certification stuffs. Certifications seem MUCH easier than a degree. I have purchased several "certification" books and feel that I could take the test today if I wanted to. Frankly though, I doubt that the mojority of the places for which I may work would care whether I can pass a Cisco or MS cert test.
This is just me, if your goal is the job and not the knowledge then more power to you. Get that certification and pull a paycheck, God knows you'll live more comfortably than me for the next few years.
sig
Go straight for the MS, if that's your ultimate goal. If you have a BS in something related (engr, math, science) then take the GRE subject test in CS, ace it 95% or better, and apply to grad school. You might have to twist admission's arm a bit, depending on standard GRE results and college grades. Once in, you might have to remediate some basic courses, but you could try to clept out.
BTW, this is not theory, this is reality, mine. I went from BS Aerospace Engr at Va Tech to a job in programming to CS grad school at UPenn.
That'll get you on the path to the MS in 0 years.
pigs will fly when you finish a B.S. in computer science in a year. My Computer Science degree consisted of 50 courses, and i imagine other degrees from recognized institutions are the same. There is much more to a CS degree and Universitites in general than just knowing how to program.
You may be able to accumulate credits in most of your courses through night classes, while still working. Then after a couple/few years, take a year off and go nutzo, on the last courses.
Although as other people have already mentioned, a nice, full, and honest resume stand out more than the degree (at most companies).
In any case, I'll answer the question at face value:
Nothing against you personally, but I hope that there is NOT such a "fast track". It sounds like you jumped into the workforce during boom time to make a fast buck. No problem with that, but many of us busted our balls and bank accounts taking the long journey to a BSCS, and the whole idea of someone snaking their way around it is, well, pretty insulting. I've worked with plenty of very good and very bad programmers, and most of the very good had a BS in something - usually engineering of some type or CS. I have yet to work with someone I consider very good who does not have any degree at all. There were plenty of average hackers who were recent high school grads, but no one outstanding.
One of these high school grads, just before I was moved to another project, was assigned as PM of a project!!! Over several people who had MANY more years of experience + BSCS. Well, I'm glad I went to another project, believe me. It's a long and silly story about stupid people in management having no respect for academic folks, and just loving yes-men and brown-nosers instead of people who give honest and useful criticism, but the result was this: the project failed. Hit the pavement hard. And it was no surprise to anyone but the dumbass in management who made the decision to have this guy be PM. The resentment of those on the team for having this snake, who had done little to prove himself either in the workplace(besides buddying up to the boss) or academia, placed in charge of their project was inexcusable - people on that project quit left and right, and by the time I got back from the client I was on, every last one of them was gone. They didn't really seem to ever acknowledge their mistake to anyone in an open forum, but they did end up firing the guy because he started asking for too much money.
Long story short: get your degree. You will be held in higher esteem for it. As for those trade schools, they have their place, but they aren't very well respected, IMHO. I've actually seen managers chuckle softly when reading those on resumes, in fact, and then chucking them in the trash...and that's when it was supposedly so hard to find developers.
Thank god for visual tools, scripting languages, "How to to become an expert in 24 hours" books, and semi-real computer fields like "web designers, 6-month-b.s.-Engineer, etc". Now everyone can become a computer genius. No wonder the current software is bloated and full of bugs. Besides, you can always blame the hardware if the software doesn't work. At least we have "real" hardware/computer engineers.
Computer Science means, if you are given a "Tur-able" problem and a specific language you should be able to implement it. If you can't implement the problem you should at least know why, and if you don't know the language you should be able to learn it on your own.
A few topics you might want to look into, in order to be a well rounded computer scientist!!!
-besides the previously mentioned topics: calc I, calc II, calc III, Diff. Eq., Physics I, Physics II
-linear algebra
-logic
-data structure
-combinatorics
-statistics
-symbolic/numeric computation
-Real OOP - scheme, smalltalk
You're wasting your time by getting a CS degree. You've already got the skills and experience to prove that you can program, so why bother proving it with another piece of paper?
What you need to be going after is a business degree. Getting a business management degree now only makes you look like you can program (as proven by your resume), but also that you have business know-how (as proven by the degree). Technical+business expertise = management candidate material.
Aside from the usual Dilbert jokes, management is where you need to head if you want to continue your career. If you want to stay in a techie job, sure, go for the CS degree, or better yet, you might go for something along the lines of EE or CE, since that'll expose you to newer material.
Don't look at getting a degree as just getting a sheet of paper that proves you know what you already know, instead look at it as a chance to expand your knowledge set and further your career.
I went to the University of Chicago for this program. Back when I attended (graduated about two years ago), it was a master's program targeting "professionals." It accepted people with and without undergrad CS degrees. If you didn't have an undergrad CS degree, then you had to take a summer immersion course (which included Discrete Math, C++, and Haskell). I imagine that the program has changed since I've been there, though.
The program was actually a lot better than I thought it would be, and it gave a good foundation in theory and practical experience. Thanks to the traditions at U of C, there was sufficient pounding of theory and such, but since it was a professional program, there were lots of practial things taught. Keep in mind, two years ago, I had a class where I was exposed to UML, RUP, EJB, CORBA, and Servlets, which has helped my career immensely.
Don't get me wrong, there were definitely some people in there that didn't belong, and I just shudder at the thought that they are in the work force, now, armed with the same degree I have. It's a program that offers good opportunities for those who are willing to take it. I didn't have as good of a tech background back then as I do, now, and I believe that those with a better background will get more out of the program and faculty (duh).
Here's a link to the curriculum.
and pasting for lazy folks ;-)
The program was originally designed to be finished in one year. I'd agree with some of the other sentiment that one year isn't enough time to go through a good CS program. I think you need time to focus and learn some of the core concepts that might be new to you, and there's something to be said for just having time to digest things. I've learned that my understanding of things will improve just with time.
One final note, though, is that the program is hella expensive. Think normal private university tuition. So, you have to decide if it's worth it or not.
If all you have are silver bullets, everything looks like a werewolf.
Haven't actually looked at a CS degree program lately have you? Ideally the point of any college degree is to produce a well rounded person with both basic job skills and critical thinking/analysis/problem solving skills with a good background in various arts to "round out" the person. In reality most (technical, at any rate) college degrees are nothing more than glorified, horribly expensive certifications.
Amen! Today's CS degrees are horrible! I wasted $3000 on two semesters of classes without any computer content. Finally, on the third one, they wanted me to sign up for a god damn PASCAL class. PASCAL?!! I spent $3000 (which I'm still paying off) to learn PASCAL?! Screw that!
In any case, it would be much better to sign up for certifications. Get your A+, your Network+, I-Net+, MSCE, CCNA, and anything else you can grab. Specialized fields look a lot better on a resume than a generic CS degree. Sure, you know "computer science" (whatever the hell that means), but do you know how to configure an Exchange server on Windows 2000?
Zodiac Survey
"...CS degree that will be recognised as such by other universities (so that I can continue with a MSc afterwards)"
If your real goal is an advanced degree contact the programs that interest you. Some may be willing to admit you without a BS. While they are likely to require that you complete some undergraduate courses, you may be able to do so after admission.
I once knew a guy whose only degree was a Phd in CS.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
They're constanly advertising offers for 18-month master's degree programs. Most are for MBA or teaching BUT I have heard about fast-track CS programs too.
This assumes, of course, that you're interested in a master's degree. If you've never gotten a bachelor's degree, there's no way in the world you're getting out in one year.
Who did what now?
When I started in CS, I thought the same thing. I'd writen my first Basic program on a Sinclair 1000 when I was around 5 or 6. I think, for the most part, I didn't really pick up any substantial amount of new information in my first three years, with perhaps the exception of Calculus (wasn't offered at my highschool... Long story)... I had, however, spent much of my highschool career "home sick" reading university level texts.
:) were, for the most part, fun, informative, and packed with things I didn't know. I can now prove not all true statements are proovable, or that there are certain non-finite strings of 1s and 0s that you can't generate, that there are well defined problems you can't compute the answer to, irrespective of how much computing power you have. I know vastly more about distributed an parallel computing and how to construct efficient algorithims for either. I know how to prove that a specific problem takes a minimum amount of time to compute the answer to, and therefore, there is a point at which you cannot create a faster algorithim to solve it. I know stupidly more about algorithim analysis than I ever did before. Try and pick a university or college with a strong course on software design, too, because even a lot of the computer engineering guys at work have a hard time with software design.
My fourth year, however, (and all the fourth year courses I took as electives in first through third years
If you don't know what "big O" notation is, or what an ALU is (Arithmetic Logic Unit - but what is it and how does it work?), or what the stack is, how dynamic memory is allocated, or the difference between microcode and machine code, then you've still got lots of second/third year level stuff to learn too.
There's a lot out there that you won't learn from "amateur" programming (or at least, there was a lot I didn't learn). For those courses that you don't think you need to take, Canadian universities will let you "challenge" the course, which means you just sit the final exam, you don't actually need to go to classes. It's a little... dangerous... since your entire mark is based on a single exam, as opposed to two exams and usually some assignments. You have a bad day, you fail the course, which is no good. Still, for first year stuff, it's probably your best route.
I am kind of in the same boat as this poster, and have decided after about 6 years of programming professionally, that it is time to get a degree. I have been programming recreationally from about the time I learned to read, but dropped out of high school. While I like to think I am pretty good and I have had no problem finding and retaining a job, I AM BORED! BORED BORED BORED BORED! I am dying to study higher math. I can't wait to start modeling physics. I would love to see how I can apply biology to software design. Really, once I found a book on linear algebra last month there was no looking back. I have to go to school. There are too many exciting things to study. The economy is going to be crap for a while anyways. Building business java beans is going to turn me into an empty shell soon. I am not really looking for a degree. I just want to keep from going insane. Luckily I can pay for a year of tution at URI in about a week of consulting.
I would recommend going back to school for a 4 year degree double majoring in EE and CS. For me the EE classes were much more fun then the CS classes. In your CS classes you would have to program the same thing in like four or five languages. Boring. In the EE classes you would design the computer yourself. Whatever you decide, remember not to let your schooling get in the way of your education.
I managed to get a CS degree in 3 years without taking summer classes and only taking slightly more than the recommended course load. Also I transferred after my first year, which lost a few credits. I'm sure it could be done in 2 years if you took summer classes, more AP tests (I only took Math, Chemistry, CS, and Physics), and the maximum load each semester. The hardest part is managing the prerequisite chains. You need to do some careful planning to pull that part off. Also your choice of minor will probably be limited.
How are you ?
When I discovered this web site, I immediately thought of you.
You're in a harry, I promise you will love it!
Get a College Degree in Days!
I've recently graduated from CMU with a CS degree. My senior year we wrote a kernel, a filesystem and a shell (or about 90% of an operatiing system).
That class alone killed about 40 hours a week, so while you might be able to learn Pascal at your local community college in a year, don't expect to get a world class education like you would at MIT or CMU in 1 year, no matter how many books you've read.
Most of my classes involved minimal programming, and a lot of theory (OS being the exception). Have you read a lot of books on probability, set theory and matrix algebra? Have you read any books on modern math? Algorithms (which involved no programming, all proofs)? NFA's and DFA's? Context Free Grammers?
I had a Java reference book and a C reference book while I was at CMU, every other book was theoretical.
It's not just a particular set of skills that employers want, but the education itself (and for some entry positions, it's a measure of whether the person is willing to do what it takes).
It is likely that it doesn't even matter whether he gets a degree in CS or English, but that he completes an education. It is common to go to graduate school without a degree in the same subject--and in many cases, it's beneficial. (I never took economics at an undergraduate level).
Finally, if he's serious about the master's degee later, no serious graduate program will take a one year degree calling itself a bachelor's seriously. It's just not going to happen.
hawk, professor
Heh...I always like that term: "Bullshit Computer Science".
Zodiac Survey
Why not go for something non-related, like an B.A. in a non CS field? If your MS is going to be in a science field, then you'd do well to pursue a bachelor degree in a non-science field, or at least in a non-CS field.
Not trying to flame here, but some of the people espousing to be CS graduates here have horrendous spelling and grammar. A little broadening of horizons never killed anyone.
Then there are distribution courses. For CS you need about 80 credits of other stuff, compared to around 40 for your concentration. It breaks down like this: 7 credits each of social science, humanities, natural science, plus 3 more credits in three of these categories: natural science, humanities, social science, math, creative expressing. You must have 4th semester proficiency in a foreign language. You have to take two writing classes, one involving several substantial papers. And there are several other requirements.
Point is, I think it is tough. You don't seem to have much respect for degrees since you're doing well without one, so this kind of program probably isn't a good option. I would just look for a really shitty school that will do anything to get students. It may be worthless, but a degree from a crappy school doesn't matter once you've proved yourself with experience.
Not having a degree will become a big problem though, so maybe you should just take a few years off and enjoy yourself in college. At my internship this summer the company had a guy who didn't have a degree who had been working as a contract employee for 14 years. He was making substantially less in salary and had much much worse benefits. It is nearly impossible to hire non-degree tech people at many companies, and you may want to apply to one of those companies someday. So just think this: Drinking and girls. Take 4 years off and do it right (can do three years if you go for 2 summer sessions, maybe less 2.5 if you take heavy courseloads).
Here is a great example of this...
I know someone that is leading a team that have been contracted in through one of their suppliers. He is someone that has a high school diploma and has been working in the field for several years.
The contracted help, they are fresh from college, top of their class supposedly. These guys are so well rounded that when they program the application they completely ignore common key combinations for normal tasks. They also change the function of key combinations based upon which window or sub-window you have opened.
I am unfamiliar with the project and application myself. However, I can suggest an excellent example. It would be like using CTRL-X for copy and then when you switch to the next window CTRL-X deletes the data in the screen.
He had hoped to have seasoned programmers on his team. Unfortunately, his contracting vendor didn't see any logic in having grizzled veterans on the team. They felt that young college graduates, still drunk from that final graduation kegger, would be the best people for the job. Now, they are a bit behind and may need to toss out the whole code-base, all because of college trained coders that learned how they were supposed to code.
Basically, my point is you could say that there are terrible programmers that come out of college and there are terrible programmers that never took a college course. There are also excellent programmers with and without degrees. It mostly depends on the person you are talking about.
As for turning out well-rounded people. That is not any college's job. That job belongs to the family that raised the college student. Colleges exist for two things. One, to give people a good base knowledge on a variety of subjects. Two, they are there to make money, which they typically do by demanding courses that have nothing to do with a degree.
While I was growing up, instead of ignoring me and letting me raise myself. My mother, while working two jobs, took myself and my sister to museums and read books with us and showed me some of the things that she was learning in college. Due to her commitment to myself and my sister, we have both ended up being rather well-rounded individuals.
So, when you have children, it is up to you to mold them into well-rounded people. Do not expect or even ask your school system or local college to do that for you. Unless, you want to go around blaming Canada because your kid learned how swear...
--
.sig seperator
--
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
I suggest pursuing a degree, but a non-CS degree. What *really* interests you? Engineering, biology, medicine? You purport to have the programming down, why do you want a piece of paper reaffirming that?
Being a programmer these days is like walking into a job interview and saying "I can speak English." Well, so what? How can you apply that? Learn something to do with your skills, lots of jobs out there require a [biology, engineering, business] background to do the programming. A good number of those 4 year college grads didn't take any of the programming classes. You ought to be able to take one of those jobs with the proper background.
And if you want to take the fast track, at least get an Associates Degree. Two years isn't that bad.
The scripting/MUD had a twofold benefit: scripting == intro to programming, and interactive MUD == extreme typing skills.
He has quadrupled his starting pay rate since doing tech support/html coding at 18. He's now 20, and his current employer's appreciation for his skills and flexibility has been responsible for tripling of his starting rate with them in 1.5 years.
Your mileage may vary - this company is not *typical* corp-style with PHBs at every turn, rather a family owned bunch of ex-musicians. But my boy is MIS at LARGE midwestern ISP/Telco. Oh, did I mention he did that on a G.E.D?
db
Cig:
ôô
"... "distance learning" school. Fully accredited and funded by the State of NJ, Thomas Edison delivers coursework electronically. Have experience that you know is worth college credits? Take the right Thomas Edison tests and earn those credits -- and the credits are transferrable. Or, earn your degree right at TE."
I don't really know if this a real school, but this might be what you're looking for.
1. Go to a trade school, test out the courses you know.
2. Find a college that no longer exists, then lie
3. Go talk to your local univarsity.
You need to remember getting any degree requires courses outside you speciality(english, history, etc,etc,etc...)
or buy one of those degrees of eBay. I have 6!
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Ok, it's in New York State. but. here's something you may very well be able to look into somewhere. Empire State College -- which is a fFully accredited part of the State Universities of New York (SUNY) -- offers credit fFor classes and experience acquired in the working world.
like, let's say you have taken some certification in your working history fFor, let's say, an MCSE. ok, your counseller will evaluate this certification and how it applies to the degree you are hoping to attain. then, they apply a certain amount of credit hours towards your degree.
yes, this assumes you are in New York. but i would think maybe other states might have a similar program somewhere.
Sorry, you may be able to fly through the CS stuff. However, that was only part
of my degree. I also had to get a minor in math, there is no way in hell I couldhave tested out of numerical methods, desecrate math, or linear algebra!
Also don't forget the fun 101 classes like college lit, and philosophy. Wow I'm
remembering how fun all of those classes really were.
For last year's commencement, we invited several "pioneering alumni"--folks who came shortly after the campus was created, and are now retired.
A few were seated in the row behind me. One commented that he'd learned more in the first year out of school than in the four years put together.
I turned around and asked, "but how much of that would you have learned *without* those four years?"
He grinned, and replied, "Exactly."
It's not the facts, it's the thinking. The general liberal education is more important than the details in your major.
hawk
Plus, the jealousy harbored by the formal supporters who can't figure out how to make all the time pay off better. Maybe dropping the "you can't know anything and you're an idiot because you didn't go through it" mentality would be a start, geeks. Why, just look at Erin Brockovich!
Chances are, this dude's not doing software development - prob. a VB programmer drifting from exe's to asp's. But, he's probably got the social skills and aptitudes to excel - something you're born with, not something you learn in college (although the skills improve there).
Now, if we can just get more geeks to spell "organization" and other like-words with a freaking "z" - man, what an improvement that would be overall!
Do you have an undergraduate degree? If so many universities are offering "Professional" Masters Degrees which usually can be completed in a year by highly competant people if they don't mind putting life on hold while they get it (as well as lose a lot of sleep and do a mediocre job at work for that time.) Classes are for the most part at night and on weekends.
The upside is that your employer may pay for it, the programs can also be spread over a couple of years as well. When you are finished you have a real Masters Degree in Computer Science.
If you don't have an undergraduate degree you need to realize that there is a lot more to it than just taking CS courses. All accredited universities and colleges attempt to teach you more than one thing. You need to take classes that do not apply to your degree to make you a more rounded person. A good think IMHO.
There are universities which will fast track you on undergraduate degrees. Places like the University of Phoenix, which are all over the damn place. But even still finishing a degree will take on the order of 3 to 4 years (most undergraduate degrees currently take 5 years), but the cirriculum is designed to accomodate people who are working during the day, classes are held at night and on weekends.
That being said is many universities are being more progressive about enrollment and are attempting to make classes more accessable to working students. I dunno where you live, but if it is in a somewhat large metropolitan area it is quite likely a traditional 4 year university will have programs to accomodate you.
There are even universites which offer Distance Learning classes. I tend to dismiss these program however, as the most important thing you will do in school is forge relationships with the people you are there with. Studying in groups is much more effective than doing it alone, you will retain more and expand your circle of friends.
Finally your only 24 for crissakes. What difference does it make if it takes 4 years to get a degree? You don't have to quit your job to get educated, a cousin of mine has been going to school at night for the last 15 years right now he is working on an MBA, he has some other masters degree as well, he just like going to school.
I don't know what you do in the evening but if it is like most people you watch TV why not just go back to school take a few years get the degree you want. As I said the plus side is many employers will pay for this, certainly with in the consulting community I am sure they would be happy to pay for a CS Degree, although some just want you to get an MBA.
Just go do it, it will take some time, but that is something you have a LOT of right now, believe it or not.
Jer,
lets say i get a CS degree at a good 4 year college, then get a masters at an online university (phoenix). do employers look at that degree differently than a grad program at a private college? is it worth the money?
Do you have an undergraduate degree of any kind? I have a B.A. in Music, but UM-Rolla accepted me as a masters student in a CompSci degree program with no CS background (although I had professional experience). Granted, I had to fulfill a bunch of pre-reqs (Calculus, Stats, Data Structures, etc.), but I took night classes for both pre-req and regular masters cpourses while still working, and I'm now three courses away from my masters. It's taken a while, but my current employer recognized the fact that I'm working on the degree when they hired me.
Maybe it's just me but seeing people talk about a "fast track" is quite aggravating. Some of us also have been programming for years, went to college and suffered through all crap to get our piece of paper. Having a "fast track" kind of belittles the validity of my degree doesn't it? Maybe you're looking in the wrong place, how about one of those places where you can just buy the piece of paper, after all that's really what you want.
I'm not tenured and my views do not represent my university. Most people with a lot of world experience in software development but no degree tend to be good at programming, and hands on kind of stuff (very desirable things in academic or real world setting). However, the place where many of these people tend to have difficulty is in the theoretical/mathematical foundations. My advice would be to brush up on your math first, and if you have time take the first few semesters of calculus at a community college before going to school (that will reduce the time to complete the math requirements). You are likely to have difficulty finding a program that will allow you to complete a degree in less than 2 years, either you will have more math/science/cs requirements (at say an engineering school) or more general education requirements (non-engineering/liberal arts school).
I worked during my B.S. and I learned different things in school and in the work place, both are useful and it is possible to leverage the experiences in one forum in the other (in particular industrial work taught me the importance of correct programs). I also worked 5 years between my B.S. and my Ph.D. but that is a different tale.
Companies don't want well rounded tools, they want sharp cutting tools to perform particular tasks.
I've hired people in the past, and when I do, I don't look for Tools. A Tool is great for one particular task, yes; but the tasks required in tech are dynamic. I need people who can be dynamic with those constantly changing requirements. In short, I need people who can learn and think quickly.
Furthermore, judging by the number of companies that require a degree, I have to assume they don't want Tools either.
Regards;
DaC
If your salary increased at an "annual rate of 50%" for 5 years, you'd be making 760% of what you made the first year. Not bad; I don't think you're going to improve on that with _any_ degree.
But if you meant that your salary had increased by 50% over those 5 years, then I can see why you might be looking for more...
Try RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology). I'm in a similar position as you (young, pretty well paid, no degree). RIT has a few very good degree programs online (none in CS specifically), including one with an Applied Computing concentration, which is what I am about 1 year away from completing. The school is reputable, the education is extremely good, and you might be able to CLEP through a lot of it. They also have Graduate degrees of sorts.
http://online.rit.edu
At least it keeps you from being held hostage by a school for 4 years. You can work at the same time.
If you have a ton of experience. Your best bet is to get a general studies degree. You can still get a master in CS, you'll just have to take some classes to make up deficiencies most of which you can test out of. Most Universities will allow you to test out of more classes for the general studies degree and also may grant you credit for work experience. The only problem you'll have is that even though you may be able to program well, 50% of any degree are classes like English, Accounting, Science, and Math. I completed my CS degree at Purdue in 2 1/2 years. To do it I had to take 18+ credit hours per semester, test out of several classes and Take a full load during summer session. I also like you had to work fulltime. So if you really want to do it don't plan on getting much sleep or having any freetime.
As a developer with good skills but relatively few years of documented experience (having been on the job market for only around 3-5 years or so) and no degree, I can say that getting a job really isn't that hard.
Even if my present employer were to lay me off (unlikely -- they're in good financial shape and I wrote a significant chunk of their internal software), I have standing offers from two sources (a friend who owns a consulting company and a fellow who owns a car dealership and is interesting in developing custom software) and two more which may have become stale.
These open positions aren't in the Bay Area (where I am now) but a few hundred miles north, in the area of Chico (a delightful little college town with a fantastic atmosphere and a refreshingly low cost of living).
Let me tell you a little story, by the way. My current employer hires "interns" at a fairly lousy pay rate, requires them to finish their degrees, &c. However, most of their best tech staff has no degree -- and one fellow (a fairly prominant MIPS developer with a fair bit of framebuffer experience) they recently hired full-time without so much as completion of a high-school diploma.
Good jobs are still to be had -- one just has to know the right people and have the right skills, and maybe move a bit if necessary.
http://www.kw.edu/
And no, there are no good schools in Florida, sorry.
I received my Bachelor's of Comp. Sci from UCF (University of Central Florida). They are not great, but they are good.
The guy who runs our (Penn State's) graduate CS program is a UCF graduate. He is also one of the few profs who *FORCED* you to learn how to think on your own in a class. If you expected to be spoonfed the concepts, you would die a very humiliating death. Just ask my classmate who could not explain 1's compliment hehehehe
Although I struggled through his beginning hardware design class, I got far more from it in terms of a problem-solving perpsective... 6 years later, those skills still help me in my career today.
but be that as it may, you can go through the crappiest CS program and succeed, and you can go through the best CS program and come out a dumbass (like the aforementions Mr. 1's compliment), its all up to the effort your willing to put into the degree. I guarantee you that the most productive of programs WILL take far longer than 1 year, and involve MANY sleepness nights, weeks, months, etc.
Of course, going to a well-known school also helps. The last thing you want to hear in an interview is "I never heard of this place."
In case of fire, do not use elevator. Use water!
So wanting to put your penis inside another man's anus makes you an independent thinker?? Sheesh!
A sentence you'll never see on an Internet discussion board: "You know what? You're right."
...to even pass the first test in higher education. the test was:
why do you think do people study very hard for many years to get a renown cs degree if they could get it in just 1 year?
you can either do hell of a business or study. both at the same time does not work, at least for high profile universities worldwide. you have chosen the money. stick with it or accept to study 5 years as the others did! no, you are not an exceptionally genious brain.
Without a degree be prepared to
constantly be defending yourself
lots of people(myself included)
use degrees as a rough benchmark
initially. If you have a degree
or a CS degree we know you had to
do X and probably know Y. I've
met stupid people with degrees,
but I've met more stupid people
without degrees(more as in number of
people and more stupid).
People always seem to try and climb
up on other peoples shoulders to get
ahead. Lack of a degree is just
another tactic people will use to
step on you. Plus learning can
be fun if you trick yourself into
thinking it is fun.
Nothing can improve a geeks love life like access to a bunch of impresionable young women. This is the only reason to attend a university, in my opinion. Don't go for your career, or the "paper". Buy some nice clothes with all that salary, get a good haircut, decent cologne, be cool, and grade yourself on how many freshman you can lay in 3-4 years. There's something that might actually be worth the tuition money.
[I'm not proud of that mind you. Not the not having a degree... the being in management].
Honestly, from my position in middle management I can see what a degree offers - managment skills. Not people management, not by a long shot. But the biggest difference you'll seen in someone with a degree vs. one without is that people with degrees [typically] know how to plan for something. Whether it's time managment, project management, filling out that un-goddly paperwork for corporate headquarters or the lawyers, people with degrees know how to manage the paperwork.
Generalizations are never true, but... if you pit 200 random cs-degrees against 200 work and home trained cs-experts in a management setting (each with his/her own team to work with and one project to win), the degrees would win the project 8 times out of 10. My point is, the 'perceptions' of venture capitalists, or the elitism of upper managment isn't as much biased as it is logical.
The value of a degree varies widely, but that degree shows a willingness and dedication to do the paperwork if nothing else. More often than not that degree will also show at least some level of competence because you wouldn't have the degree if you couldn't pass the classes. Non-degreed experts are more like rough gems - hard to find, risky, but worth twice a fortune if you're lucky. Degrees are like cut gems, most are average, but they'll get you out of trouble almost every time.
Ctimes2
My cube. My friend. My solace. My prison.
I make the following recommendations based on how I achieved my degree after being in a situation such as the one described.
;)
Select an accredited university. Do NOT get a degree by mail. You will get called on it by any reputable employer.
Find a university that will provide "work experience" credits. I went through Wayland University (based in Texas). They allowed up to 20 some credits based on real-world work experience. This eliminates the need for some boring electives.
Select a BS program that is quickest to achieve. I obtained a degree in Business Administration because I knew and could document my technical experience. With the Bus. Admin degree I would prove to employers I can also understand business and management allowing me to progress up the corporate ladder.
Next, CLEP or DANTES test out of every class you can. At around $50 a pop, they are worth taking even if you are unsure of passing. I took ACCOUNTING I class and CLEP'd out of ACCOUNTING II. I also CLEP'd numerous math, physics, and astronomy classes simply because I knew the material reasonably well. Depending on the university you select, you may only need around a 50% passing score on CLEP or DANTES tests to be given credit. Since they are multiple choice, your almost guaranteed 25% correct by guessing.
Once you have cleaned out all the elective classes through CLEPs and work experience, you need to focus on core classes. Universities require you to take a minimum number of required courses from them in order to obtain a degree, usually 11 classes or so. You will not be able to get around this. Select the classes you believe will be important to give you a good background in the degree field you've choosen. They will actually be beneficial to you in the long run.
Final thoughts. I completed my degree in just under 2 years by completly immersing myself into the program (while continuing to work full time and run my own ISP and security consulting business). I had ZERO social life for those 2 years but it was well worth the effort. As a side note, once you have the credits (through CLEP, DANTES, or actually taking classes) and complete you degree you always have the option to leverage those in a second degree at another university. Get the quickest degree (Business admin, forestry, or whatever) then go back later and take a few additional classes to get the CS if you desired.
Most important, although you might think a CS degree is critical, employers first look to see if you have ANY degree, which provides them documented evidence of ability to learn and desire to grow in knowledge. Get a degree!
Hope this helps.
Learning about human culture and beauty will go much further in the long run through life and will enrich and enhance your experience in the "real world".
Although it may not be true in your case, in my experience, people who say they've read "hundreds" of CS books have been focused on a relatively narrow part of CS, namely information technology. There are a whole variety of other aspects of computer science that you may be missing. For example
Now, its likely that you have some notion of each of these, but its typically the case that there will be some of them that are a little fuzzy, or even completely foreign. A formal education will help you fill in the gaps.
But most importantly, a formal education will give you an environment in which to have your writing, speaking, and thinking processes critiqued. In the business world, no one ever tells you why you failed.
I'd go ahead and get a four-year degree, preferably at an older school where there is some possibility that, in the process of acquiring a good general education, you may learn that publicly discussing your income (I'm being kind here -- the proper term would be "boasting") is in exceedingly poor taste.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
So OK I'm not from around here, oh great one ... what does pedantic mean? jk
If you had a degree, you would have learned that you could go to www.m-w.com and look up the word :)
In case of fire, do not use elevator. Use water!
However, take heart! Once you have your Bachelor's (which I would put a reasonable estimate at seven or eight semesters), it would be possible to also get your Master's degree in about a year. You could very likely find a program that would let you do a fast track masters/bachelors combination in four-ish years (going year round).
My experience has been that the masters is a hell of a lot easier then a bachelors (course, my undergrad and grad institutions are vastly different in their rigor).
Regards,
Mark
I'm surprised this oversensitive rant got modded up so high. Perhaps a few too many touchy people with university degrees needing to feel good about a decision that took four years out of their life and didn't advance them much further than a one-year pro college would have? Maybe it's not the case for this guy, but it is a valid question for others who are skeptical about, or even not capable of, investing time or finances in a full-time program.
It takes a heck of a lot more than a university degree to filter through a pack of lies in an election, a courtroom or as the next-of-kin. Want proof? I HAVE a university degree and I'd be the biggest dummy in the juror's box or the hospital waiting room, and my ability to tell when a politician is bullshitting me comes from experience that has nothing to do with my degree.
Let's face it -- you can learn three programming languages and the basis for systems analysis and OOP design in under a year. Universities obviously offer more than that, and I'd encourage the guy to attend fulltime because of the extra benefits over and above what you get in class, but don't tell us that even in your time at university you didn't know anybody who just wanted to get through the material and out into the real world as quickly as possible. And further to that, don't try to tell us that many of those speedy students aren't in fact doing quite well for themselves in their career. (Or do you find their admirable drive insulting as well?)
His question is hardly insulting. Universities are about getting what knowledge you want out of them. He wants enough to get his piece of paper. And as a side-benefit, he probably won't end up one of those permanent Student Union Building residents desperately trying to figure out how to stay on another year because they're too afraid to cut the educational umbilical cord.
That said, to the original Ask Slashdotter, I'd recommend enrolling at university but taking your time. If you've been programming since 12, you obviously love it, and university will offer you so many ways to explore that -- not to mention giving you time away to do so without the pressure of trying to fit it into a life already busy with a fulltime job. If it's something you're passionate about, it's worth going into debt over. If you're interested only in CS and that's it, there will be clubs and contests and time to host a few Freshmeat projects. If there are other subjects you like, you can take electives in them.
There's also a great social scene at universities -- even the bad ones can be pretty good. Tons of cute girls, too. Just remember that you only have one liver.
-------------------------------------------------
charlton heston is more of a man than yo
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Never again in your life will you have a legitimate reason to be in a social setting with thousands of 18-22 year old females as you do at university. Would you rather be in your cube banging your head against someone elses' perl script all day for four years?
Go, before it's too late and you turn into a mature student. Go!
My friend, I have the solution for you! In the past week along I've received a half dozen informative emails from people that can set you up with the degree you need using ONLY your life experience!
Thats RIGHT! A real degree from an eminent non-accredited university in just weeks! all based on your own life experience. I'd be happy to foreward these to you.
Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
First, it should be of note where I am, how I got there, and why this may help others reading.
I am 19-years-old. My position, should you care, is Manager of Network Operations (CIO) for a 55-employee graphics/net concern in Kansas City.
I am a high-school drop-out, with no GED.
I make more then my mother, who has a BA, and has been working for 30+ years.
I regret every day that I never completed school. The reasons for my leaving are numerous, though focus mostly on boredom, and a rather intense hatred of teenage culture.
I left school with one-goal, to write comics.
I ended up working on computers.
For everyone listening, where I am now is not hard to get to in the computer industry. It's actually a straight-forward progression from one job to the next, moving quickly, and working like a japanese beaver to show your worth your wait.
I started at CompUSA, as the in-house Macintosh guy, when I had just turned 16, one month out of high-school. I actually planned on being a sales-clerk, but, when they found out I could fix Macs, they got wet, and gave me the job...
I low-balled my salary, meaning there was little risk for my employer, and worked there for three months.
I eventually came to meet a woman who as starting a consulting concern. She never asked my age, but offered me a job. They only learned I was 16 when I filled out the proper paper-work. They couldn't deny me the job at that point, as it would have been age-discrimiation.
For one-year, I worked 80+ hour weeks, learning everything I could by trailing my boss as he fixed things. I took no classes, but read patiently, and paid attention.
I was promoted to my current position 13 months after I started.
It's a terrible job.
I'm 19, with no education, which everyone knows, and thus, am often treated as such. Because I have no degree, I don't have a leg to stand on when in arguments. All I know is what I can guess would be true.
I can't tell you how many wasted hours I have spent fixing things that, were I to have a degree, I may never have broken. Borders is my drug of choice, as well as Fatbrain.com, and they eat up most of my salary. I have to spend as much time as possible reading what a CS major may have been given easily, and, because I have very-little frame of reference, lacking solid fundamentals, I often find myself relearning things again and again.
I want to return to school...badly. But, I'm in debt, after buying a good car, and getting some needed dental work done, and, leaving my job, or reducing my salary is not an option. Between a rock and a hard place, I'm stuck envious of the lazy life of college students, meanwhile, struggling to remain current so that a Devry kid doesn't steal my job.
Degrees aren't useful to employers in this industry. In every interview i have been in, the fact that I have no degree is never a concern. I have never been denied a position I applied for because of that, and most look favorably on my, self-motivation i guess you could call it.
But degrees can be useful to you. Having that stupid piece of paper gives you a grounded view of what you are doing, and confidence in your intelligence. You will doubt yourself less, and find more pathways open to you when you are doing whatever it is you love doing.
The foundation of CS should not be taken lightly, or shrugged off.
It's time to go job-hunting again, so I guess we'll see if this is all true in this economy...
Funny, I deal with people who have degrees who don't understand that planning is important, and I myself who have no degree know exactly why planning is important. The degree doesn't get you this. Actually having a functioning brain gets you this.
I've dealt with lots of people who think because they have a degree in x that they know everything. That's a separate topic from the original question, but it goes back to the question of why you want the degree. Ten years ago I wanted the degree as an entrance into this field. I didn't get the degree for a variety of reasons, none relating to my ability. Now the degree won't mean a whole lot, compared to the experience I have.
People are never as simple as their stereotypes. This applies equally to Christians, Muslims, and Emacs-lovers.
Go cry me a musical merit badge Nancy!
That kind of accusation is not only baseless and biased, it's not independant. I'm betting with odds that you picked up the definition of 'independant thinker' from your buddies at the coffee shop on castro st. SF. Before you accuse all Boy Scouts of being mindless automotons, why don't you ask your buddies how many of them were IN the scouts as kids, and find out how many of them ARE GAY.
My cube. My friend. My solace. My prison.
I keep seeing things like this, over and over.
Guess what, folks: the school does *not* turn a profit on each student. There are few, if *any* schools in which tuition actually covers the costs. The subsidy you receive tends to vary from small but noticable (private schools with small endowments), to almost all (many state schools).
There are cases where schools are not up to the enrollment for which they are desigened, and indeed need the revenue from the empty seats, but this is the exception, not the rule (but I did get a full law school scholarship out of this, as the school needed my test scores and near certain passage on the bar exam
Also, summer programs tend to be revenue positive--the buildings and maintenance are already paid for by the regular programs, and the faculty benefits are already paid. But guess what the extra revenue does . . .
hawk
that's not to say I never attended college. I went to 3 universities and in my final transfer, I found that some credits didn't xfer over for some reason and I was about 2 courses short of a dual math/comp-sci degree. I figured I'd go back at night to complete the degrees (I had a job offer and was excited to immediately start in industry).
of course I never went back at night and so technically, I have no degree at all. lots of college experience but no piece of paper, as it were.
still, my last college was a co-op school and so half the time I was out working; and the other half attending courses full-time. so when I finally left school, I had real work experience - which was the biggest boost - far more than attending this or that college.
that was all back in 1984. I've been working full-time in the computer industry (I'm a network management guy) and so far, not ONE company I've interviewed at has balked at my lack of 'a piece of paper'. I've never applied to govt kinds of companies (here in the silicon valley, there's little need to resort to such things [g]). but after having 15+ yrs in the industry, plus having started programming at 15yrs old (I'm 40 now) I never even get ASKED about my degree or schooling. I don't even list it on my resume anymore.
I laugh when people ask me if they should SPEND MORE MONEY by getting a masters or doctorate. I say hell no!, why SPEND money when you can MAKE it directly at a job? even if its entry-level, you have to start somewhere.
there are plenty of non-degreed people out there doing very well indeed. and when asked 'who would you hire if you were starting a fresh new company', I'd almost always pick a self-starting self-taught person over some college-boy egghead anyday. especially if they are interested enough in computers to actually run a small network at home.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
One thing that a psychology degree can be
useful for is learning how to learn.
If you study the area of learning and
behavioral psychology you learn to
manipulate yourself. This manipulation
can allow you to learn new things and
change your bad nonstudying/procrastination
behavior. Additionally, if you really
studied experimental psychology you will
learn a great deal about experimental
and scientific method which can be applied
to any problem.
Then you can go back for a second degree
in CS while you work and raise a family,
this allows you to periodically consider
shooting yourself. Ah but enough about me..
If your eventual goal is a MS degree rather than the bachelors, many schools will admit you (even if their requirements state otherwise) without a achelors degree if you have completed a core set of undergraduate requirements. Of course many of these classes have prerequisites (for example, if you have never had any calculus then you'll need to take about 4-5 math classes including a year of calculus, linear algebra, discrete mathematics, and a probability and statistics classes for most quality universities). I would suggest that you bootleg the math classes (and likely some physics also) in the evening while continuing to work and then take some time off to take the prerequisites that are core to most MS programs (usually 5-7 classes). Even with extensive experience, a year is probably unreasonable but you could probably cram it in in 3 semesters and a summer if you are as experienced as you profess.
Unless you wanted to move into management then I wouldn't worry about it. In one job I was hired (with no degree) to replace a programmer who had a masters degree. He spent his last few days "bringing me up to speed". To put it bluntly he was not the sharpest knife in the drawer. He had no common sense at all. The universities had taught him a lot facts but they didn't teach him how to use it. I spent the next two years redoing everything he worked on so that it would work properly.
Now if you're interested in management then I'd forget about the CS degree and instead focus on getting a business degree.
Just a word of warning about some very accredited programs which boast a fast track. I personally enrolled in one at the UOP online (which is accredited). They were easy to get in, quick to finance etc... Well, the classes are 4-5 weeks in length I took three before leaving the program. The average text book did not arrive until two weeks into the class (the classes were well written and relevant to the field in thier defense) two weeks into a four week class is a long time to be bookless. The Universitys administration said that I needed to find a way around the program myself as the books are only available on an exclusive deal, it was difficult. I dropped the university due to their administrative apathy towards my problems. They refunded nearly all the money to my lenders meaning I owed them money. They sent me a note on 11/28/01 explaining that I owed 1000 dollars by 11/24/01 or it would go to collections. So, theres my "not-a-plug" for UOP online.
Be careful
Disregarding the effects of time and cost, whose CS program would be recommended from an academice point of view and then from a Human Resources point of view?
AP Chemistry - 9 credits
AP Computer Science AB - 8 credits
AP Calc BC - 8 credits
AP Physics C Mechanics - 4 credits
AP Physics C E&M - 4 credits
AP English - 4 credits
AP some language - 8 credits
AP History - 4 credits
AP Economics - 4 credits
First semester - 21 credits
Second semester - 21 credits
Summer - 8 credits
Third semester - 21 credits
Fourth semester - 21 credits
Getting a degree in two years - Priceless
It kills me how we are tearing this guy a new one about skipping Cal II or diff and then we talk about his 760% increase in pay.
NEWS FLASH
5 years of working
means only 4 years of raises
means that he hasn't gone up 760%
if you start at $20,000
you end up at about $100,000
not $151,000
have we ever heard of word problems????
Although I agree with you completely, just check around among all your associates with the humanities/liberal arts degress, and find out just how much science/math/engineering they have taken. What gets me with the current state of the academic world is that it's unconscionable to allow a scientist or engineer to graduate without an appropriate number of humanities courses to "balance" his or her education, but it's perfectly OK to let a humanities major graduate with essentially no math or science or engineering courses whatever. In fact, they're lucky if they have taken a high-school-level algebra or "pre" calculus course for the entire math requirement and/or an astronomy-for-poets course as their science requirement. These same people then complain that their degrees have not prepared them for life in the technology-heavy modern business world. It's a joke.
Guns don't kill people -- people kill people.
But the guns seem to help a bit. (apologies to Eddie Izzard)
Everyone will tell you that degrees are not needed if you have a strong computer background. This was the case in past years but with the giant cutbacks in technology it's tough to get a job without a degree. I've worked for several different software companies and the people with no degree are always the first to go. Companies no longer need "closet programmers". Going to college goes a long way in developing communication skills which are essential in today's environment. Even if you don't want to go into management many companies will not hire you if you have poor communication skills and can not be put in front of a customer. A customer may not be someone outside of the company either it could be the salespeople for your company. I suggest not getting a degree to get a peice of paper but to get it so your prepared to deal with other people and lead other people. And discussing salary in any form just shows how far you have to go in developing communication and leadership skills.
wise the following: "The only reason most large companies require a degree, and don't just interview you for what you know and your experience, is because most of those people have degrees. If they had to suffer through 4-6 years of college, and the time and monetary commitment involved in doing that, you damn well are going to suffer just like they did. It's called 'revenge on the rest of humanity'." I've found most companies that required a degree to get anywhere (as opposed to basing everything on experience" are companies I don't want to work for anyway.
>I've been programming since I was 12 (I'm
>currently 24) and have read hundreds of CS
>books. I think that I can easily complete a CS
>degree in 1 year.
"I've been using microwave ovens since I was 12 and have read hundreds of books on using microwave ovens. I think I can easily complete a degree in high-energy physics in one year."
Okay, thats pushing the analogy a little far, but you get the point. Programming is a trade skill, period. Computer science is NOT about programming. I'm sorry I'm reacting so violently to this, but you've hit a *very* sore spot for me.
I do computer science for a living and I am a mathematician by trade and training. Yes, I can program and enjoy doing so, but this is not what makes me a "Computer Scientist". I also enjoy tinkering with old sports cars and have a decent grasp of mechanics. I certainly don't consider myself a qualified automotive engineer though.
You claim to have read "hundreds of CS" books; but have you really? Is there a chance they were programming and technology books? If you want a taste of what real "computer science" looks like, I happily recommend reading the following:
- Computational Complexity by Papidimitriou
- Automata Theory and Languages by Hopcroft and Ullman
- Compilers... I can't remember the whole name but its got a big picture of a dragon on the front. If you ask anyone in the business about 'the dragon book' they'll know what you mean... by Aho, Sethi and Ullman (I think).
- The Russell and Norvig AI book
- Any book on lambda-calculus and recursive function theory (I can't think of a good introductory-level text at the moment). Even better if it introduces semantics too.
Those will give you a feel for some of the areas that are considered "Computer Science". The ability to program will get you through first year; after that, its more about math and.. gasp... thinking, than it is about whipping up code.
Again, sorry for the rant, but I think Edsgar Dykstra (a famous Computer Scientist) summed it up best when he said:
"Computer Science is as much about computers as Astronomy is about telescopes".
Truer words were never spoken.
Mostly because in the 3 years I'd been there they had yet to teach me anything I hadn't already taught myself in high school.
either you went to the worlds crappiest college, or you where taking the easiest course possible AND went to the best damn high school in the world.
Advanced college math, by the Jr. year, is WELL beyond anyhtin in highschool. Not to mention the arts, advanced english, physics, chemistry.
I do not believe there where NO courses at your college that you didn't allready master.
Your statement is the same cop-out high school drop-outs use.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Thanks for jumping to conclusions, and helping to re-inforce negative stereotypes.
Note that I'm *not* an Anonymous Coward, so feel free to reply to that. I'm willing to put my name behind my views. Glad to see that you're able to keep thinking independantly yourself. Way to keep an open mind.
---
Segmentation Fault ( core dumped )
I'm in a completely different situation: I'm a humanities type of person stuck in the computer field. Currently, I'm a computer science undergraduate and a web developer, but I get C's in my computer science and math courses. Although, my seemingly shoddy grades are offset by my A's in other courses, my greatest fear is that the entire economy will collapse and I'll be left with a worthless degree and no job. Although computer science courses (theory and mathematics mumbo-jumbo) may not be my strength, I'm technically inclined. I just don't know if I should continue with CS getting a 3.0 GPA, when I could be getting 4.0 in linguistics or philosophy.
CS degree != Programming
Honestly, the fastest track for someone like you with a ton of experience in development and programming languages is to get a CIS (computer information systems) degree. You could probably show them "equivalent work-related projects" so that can count against having a final project, you can breeze through alot of the other project courses. All you'd have to worry about is the general studies requirements. I'd say you can get it all done comfortably in 2.5 years.
I've seen someone get an Engineering degree in 2 years. He was an ROTC guy who was told by the Navy he only had 2 years to get his degree. He averaged about 20-25 hours per semester (normal students ~15/semester) and sometimes had to take a class right before he could take its prerequistite (damn scheduling concerns). But he made it -- on average he got B's and C's.
So it can be done.
Good luck.
My personal situation is much akin to that of the individual who submitted this question to Slashdot. I am 24 yrs old with 10+ yrs. of overall experience with computers (6+ yrs. in a professional environment...) and am currently employed by a well-known, Fortune 500 company. And, I have accomplished all of this (including a very generous salary) without the assistance of a college degree of any sort...
:)
I am currently in the highly enviable position of working for a corporation that not only encourages it employees to seek further higher education, but actually empowers them to do so with 100% reimbursement of all tuition/books/fees associated with attending university - please don't hate me because I'm fortunate...
So to address the question at hand, I will simply explain my strategy for attaining my desired degrees. As many have posted prior to me (and as should be common sense...), there are **NO** degrees that are both accredited and quick - all worthwhile degrees require at least a moderate level of commitment. That said, my personal plan is to leverage the limited number of college credits that I amassed while working for the I/T department of U of D Mercy (classes were free...) to provide me with eligibility for an accelerated Bachelors program for Business Administration - this is an 18-month program and is offered at MANY business oriented universities.
So why would a computer geek need/want a Bachelor's in Business Administration??? There are actually three reasons why this was appropriate in my situation - (1) it is the most logical if you are looking for promotion to management, (2) it is the easiest, quickest bachelor's degree available, and (3) It is a fully accredited degree that can be used as a stepping stone for further post-graduate education.
It is actually this final point that makes this plan so applicable, beneficial, and practical. Once you have completed your bachelor's degree in business, you can continue on to get a Master's Degree (in roughly another 12 - 18 months if you work hard...) in a more computer/technical related area. This could be anything from E-Business to a program targeted for future CIO's.
If you are anything like me, you have no desire to sit through tedious technical classes that strive to teach you old ideas and yesterday's technology. I read books and attend conferences to maintain my up-to-date standing in the world of technology. The benefit that I can derive from attending university is that of management and people skills that most computer geeks inherently lack. As proof of concept, I have actually been premature promoted to an interim management position only weeks after divulging my educational intensions to my superiors and taking the first preliminary steps...
Best of luck to you in whatever you path you choose - ultimately, any education or form of learning will prove to be beneficial for you mind and soul!!!
- n2q
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -- Benjamin Franklin
And you don't need to cut your career short to go back to school since those are evening classes. If you are diligent enough, you can complete the program in a year and a half.
I have a degree from MIT, your offer. Anytime, anywhere.
How do you want to do it? See who can write a compiler in 6 days? how anbout write a functional OS in 30 days?
How about write a program to completely operate an advanced satalite under 640K?
Want to write a SCSI driver in assembly?
Lets ee if my amazing kreskin powers are working:
You program in VB....and know enough PERL to open a database.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I got an email this morning that addresses your problem:
Return-Path:
Received: from mail.miscombooglejjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj.com ([212.0.109.226])
by penguin.scsinternet.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fBSAXO224320;
Fri, 28 Dec 2001 05:33:28 -0500
Message-ID:
From: "Admissions_WYBAS@centerzone.net"
Bcc:
Subject: Your diploma is ready.
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 04:43:23 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Status: R
X-Status: N
U N I V E R S I T Y D I P L O M A S
Obtain a prosperous future, money earning power,
and the admiration of all.
Diplomas from prestigious non-accredited
universities based on your present knowledge
and life experience.
No required tests, classes, books, or interviews.
Bachelors, masters, MBA, and doctorate (PhD)
diplomas available in the field of your choice.
No one is turned down.
Confidentiality assured.
CALL NOW to receive your diploma
within days!!!
1 - 3 1 3 - 7 3 1 - 0 2 2 4
or
1 - 6 0 2 - 7 9 8 - 7 6 9 0
Call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, including
Sundays and holidays.
Apathy -- The state of numbness of the mind. When you are apathic, you can think.
Don't plan on completing a CS degree in a year. Can't be done. As many others have pointed out, most universities will require the broad educational background. I know. I went back to school to get that BS in CS degree... and I already had a BS in engineering (Civil). So I already had many of the background courses. I took maybe a total of 5 PROGRAMMING courses during my 2 1/2 year tenture at school. The rest were Computer SCIENCE (about 40%), and non computer (50%) courses.
The advantages I had over someone earning a degree for the first time was that I could fill in a lot of my non-cs courses from interesting things that I wanted to take, rather than bone-head english, history, bio/phys/chem, etc. My choice, so I can't complain.
Most schools and Universities have online courses. However attending them remotely is basically the same as going to the class. You still have to watch over some kind of connection the class.
I don't think you can do it in a year though, without quitting your job, eating once a week. One problem that you might have preventing that year is taking Calc and Physics, unless you want to go the CIS route... (which is more business side, that some schools are starting to offer, (NOT MIS)) CIS is CS without the Physics and only 1 or 2 less calculus courses. It saves a lot of pain and headaches...
"It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
I am 38 years old. I only have an ASEE and my degree hasn't reduced my salary. I am earning
money similar to my counterparts that have
more advanced degrees. Also this does not hinder
my ability to do my job. I do keep my Sun and Cisco certifications pretty current. It is important to keep a decent resume together along with excellent references. If you are not earning the money you think you should be earning then it's time to update your resume and start looking for a new job. I made several salary leaps from
jumping from job to job. Never leave a job for less then $10,000 more. And I pushed for more and more vacation time. Make sure your health benefits are good. I know plenty of people with a BSEE and a MSEE that did not know how to apply their knowledge in the real world and ended up
either running a hotel or managing a D'Angelos Franchise.
If your employer snubbs you because you lack a degree, find another employer who values what you know.
How old will you be if you decide not to pursue a CS degree?
... is how many people on this board (not pointing out this thread, necessarily) say things that seem intelligent, and CAN'T SPELL FOR SHIT.
It's bad enough Rob has his spelling head up his ass 24-7, but I can't take half this crap serious when fulks speel liek thiz.
no education is complete without a solid understanding of evolution and natural selection. It applies to everything!!! It is what makes even the most boring organic chemistry detail seems interesting.
there's one... and it's called the
mcdonalds university.
Earlier in this thread, someone was talking about how much getting a degree helps a person improve their social skills. Thank you for demonstrating the actual extent to which that is true. I hope it will be a valuable lesson for all concerned.
If you get an Education to do a certon job as a ordanary programer. The Degree is Overrated. Just pick up a book on programing and get confortable with it. But if your ambition is to do some real computer science and work in in fields such as AI, Parallel Systems, Designing systems for high performance or massive complex number cruntching then the CS degree is relly needed.
If you just want to be a programer then get the 2 year degree and start right away. If you want to do more then Program for the rest of your life then get a larger degree.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I have a problem with the presumption that someone who has acheived the CS skills required to compete successfully in the market has not or cannot have also educated themselves in math, business, the arts , other sciences etc...
Anyone who has educated themselves in these areas has far more focus, persistence, passion and discipline than most who do so with the aid of an educational institution. While tremendous resources are available at these facilities, anyone with the personal quialities to go it alone will continue educating themseleves at a much higher rate then most for whom education was something that you got in school.
Education is not something that other people do to you.
Calculus, chemistry, music....all can be learned to any degree on your own. I, and many others, are examples of those who do so out of pure curiosity about the world in which we live and passion for things that we love. I don't have a degree, never went to college, and have never been asked if I did. I, and many others, am a successful SW Engineering consultatnt who has been judged on my track record and ability to perform. To move into management...no problem. The MBA curriculum is available in books and is easy to master.....for the self educating individual.
"everyone's different....I am the same"
I myself am currently a CS major. And there's a lot more to getting a degree in anything than just the core classes for that major. Getting a degree means more than just Computer Science. CS is a SCIENCE. That means you need to take SCIENCE classes as well. I needed to take Physics classes, Calculus classes, History, English, etc... I really don't think that you could do that in a year. Just because you can code, doesn't mean you can do all that too. And that's what people recognize when you have a degree. Than you not only know about CS, but have a better understanding of some other things as well. I've been working in IS for 4 years now, and if I were a hiring manager, I would take the guy who did 4 years over the guy who did 1.
geek n performer who performs morbid or disgusting acts, as biting off the head of a live chicken
If I remember correctly from a usenix/sage report last year, you do not need a CS degree.
If getting into more management positions and such is what you are after, your degree does not have to be in CS. It can be in, well, almost anything that's reasonably respectable.
Sage found that sysadmins with degrees make more money than those without, but that those degrees were not necessarily in CS.
IF you are doing this for your career, do a 2 year business degree or something...
I went to work at 24 without finishing my IT degree. When I was 26 I was a lead developer with a lot of responsibility and one day my boss was rambling about the state of the industry and said, "...for example, if you had a degree, I'd have to pay you twice what you're making now." I resigned within the week and enrolled that semester. I graduated at 27 and have not looked back since. Now at 34 my degree is hardly an issue, but it's there. If it weren't opportunities I've had may not have been available. Whatever...
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
Companies will not generally promote you to management positions, (ie: CIO, Director of IT, etc) if you don't have a degree in *something*.
It's not at all about what you learned in the degree; it's the perception by the rest of the world.
CCIE is great, it will get you fantastic work, but it won't get you respect from venture capitalists and a board of directors who want to put someone in charge, unfortunately.
anyway, FWIW, Math and/or physics are much better preparation for graduate work in economics, as well. Also, the people who do best in law school are not the english majors (who are convinced that their writing skills [which all too frequently aren't up to standard, anyway] will carry the day), but the folks with engineering, math, and hard science degrees.
hawk, with degrees in subjects all over the place.
A company wants you to have a degree for a number of reasons:
1. It guarantees that you have had the breadth of exposure to your field that they think you need. You may say you are well rounded in your field, but are you? Degrees also require you to be proficient in other fields as well.
2. It shows that you can be given a hard task and complete it.
3. It provides a way to keep score. If you are doing good in school in relation to others in your field than you are good at what you do. If you do badly in relation to others, you are bad at what you do.
4. It decreases the company's risk that the person is an idiot.
5. People with degrees get more respect.
In response to good programmers who don't have degrees working with idiots with degrees, this exists, but you'll find it much more common that those with degrees are smarter (and more motivated) than those without. That's my experience.
E.g., you may want to go to law school or get an MBA or something-- you never know what the future will bring. It will be much harder to get an advanced degree later on if you have not even completed your BS yet. Everyone I know who does not have their BS regrets not having it sooner or later.
One friend is suffering thru getting his BSCompE now so he can go to law school. He really wishes he finished that four year degree when he had the chance (before house, family etc.). For him changing careers is requiring 7 years of schooling instead of just 3
Do what I did... blow about $60K on a 4 year education from Purdue in CS... then you can get a job that pays less than what you are making now ;)
Being a well rounded person will make you a better developer. You can't just know technology, but also you need the gain understanding how technology fits into the bigger picture.
Learn stuff that will not be obsolete in three years. This takes time. Enjoy the journey.
...richie - It is a good day to code.
The most valuable things I learned was not how to program, but engineering methodologies. This is basically a solid, logical approach to problem-solving, as well as how to document/describe what it is you have done (ie how to make others understand your approach to solving the problem).
Unfortunately, this is something that is drilled into you over years by professors and TAs marking you down when you don't do it. Any shortcut to a degree will not un-learn any bad habits you might have taught yourself over time.
I have seen allot of posts here telling this guy to go ahead and take the three or four years. What I have not seen is anyone explaining how he will pay his bills while he is not working or hwo he will support his family for that amount of time.
This is a problem that I have as well. I have six years in IS. I love it and spend serveral hours each evening studing on my own. I would love to take three or four years off and spend it in school, but there is no way I could survive without getting a regular check. So for all of you who are saying take the time and go, please provide an explaination of how to go about that. Otherwise you are just blowing smoke.
I'm a programmer, I don't have to spell correctly; I just have to spell consistently
All you need to do is get a hotmail account- I get offers for a free college degree several times a day.
There is no valid Fast Track to a Computer Science degree. Computer Science is an academic discipline. Part of the degree does not only prove your knowledge, but your problem sovling capabilities, your abilities to be studious and to study with others.
This seems to me to be a slap in the face of Computer Science. One would not ask for a fast track to a Physics Degree or a Nuclear Engineering Degree (and end up like Homer).
Monetary achievement has little to do with a degree. The degree proves you are a scientist that has been proven in academia and recongnized by a University.
The fast track would be to go back to school.
Don't know if it's universally available, but my alma mater allowed students to challenge courses. Just pay the fee and write the final exam. Repeat until degree complete. Theoretically, anyway.
If you are as smart and self-educated as you claim, this will take about 1 year (and plenty of $$) since not all courses are offered every semester. Otherwise, the first few failed exams will prove out just how much you don't get from reading the trendy books and working in the trenches!
Anybody want a peanut?
Most major Universities have ways for you to test out of classes. And even for the classes you can't officially test out of, there are friendly professors (especially at smaller universities) that will let you unofficially test out.
steve
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
There are plenty examples of people that have continued to progress in their careers without a CS degree (Jobs, Gates, ...)
If you plan to stay in the corporate world, you may want to consider a degree in another field than CS (since you are already talented in this field and have demonstrated your skills). As you move up the corporate food-chain, you'll need to use your communiation skills, managerial skills, and political skills to accomplish your goals.
On the other hand, you may consider breaking out on your own, start your own business, and learn from the school-of-hard-knocks.
If you are living and working in an area where an abundance of people are competing for opportunties, the eductaional background can have an impact on opportunties and promotion. For example, I had a contract about 6 years ago at a company that had people located world wide. The group I was in at San Jose had a mirror group in Germany. The group in Germany had a least half the folks with PHDs, the group in San Jose had 1 person with a Masters, and the rest did not have any CS education, other than on-the-job experience.
If you choose to continue formal eduction or not, in the big picture, the movers and shakers continue to learn, and have really strong skills in the areas of communication, negotiation, and are extremely tenacious and competitive
Best of luck!
qbalus
I just got an email that said you can get a PhD for just $25 and nothing more! Sounds like this might be a good solution.
From the grammar mistakes in your post you need it. A CS degree from a good school will give you more than just programming/computer knowledge - it will give you a rounded education. Take the time and do it right. Very few good graduate schools will admit students without an undergraduate degree.
BTW, you want a MSCS. You forgot the "c".
Mike
Some of the courses that you'll take when you go back to school won't be directly relevant to programming, or even CS. You might learn enough English, though, that you won't write it's been 5 years since I've been working in the tech industry when you mean I've been working in the tech industry for 5 years.
While there's a lot of discussions about the usefulness or uselessness of a degree, I will give you a free piece of advice that comes from a similar situation.
:-)
I have a very good track record and have made all my milestones in my previous companies, been compensated well and generally made a bunch of friends wherever I went because I'm pretty easy to work with. (It gets easier with age, not experience.
In January of this year, I left a company after two years of hard work, to see a bright horizon with recruiters and companies clamoring to hire me. I have no degree. They didn't care. Everyone asked about it, of course, but only one or two said it was an issue, and those were willing to overlook it on the basis of my record.
I took a job and did good things for them for 8 months. At this business, the recession really hit and funding came up short, so when they went through the tightening of the belts for the fourth time, I finally was laid off.
I wasn't worried at first, but after a couple of weeks, I realized that the recession was harder and colder than I thought. Few phone calls. No interviews. Nobody was hiring out-of-towners. Nobody would talk to me unless I had a degree, regardless of experience, because there are people out of work with both.
My free piece of advice: A degree is like a life buoy--it's rare that you have to fall back on it, but the security of having it is invaluable. When IT/CS are in short supply, a degree can mean very little. In times like these, it can mean everything.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
What did you do when you graduated high school (assuming you did graduate high school)? You were faced with a choice then, college or work. You obviously chose to go straight after the money at that time. I did not. I knew at that time that a college degree would mean much more in the long run, so I chose college. You sound like a get rich quick kind of guy, which is not a problem, but you can't shortcut a college degree. There is no substitute for hard work and for putting your time in. If you work for someone else, i.e. do not own your own company, sooner or later you will hit the salary ceiling because you do not have a degree, and to get a degree means putting your time in NOW. 3-4 years of college to get a degree is not unreasonable.
Believe in things of which no person has ever learned
One way to maximize your time and effort: take advantage of so-called distance learning, where the vast majority of the classes are taken via the web and/or by correspondence.
l
My old school, University of Maryland University College, offers many undergradute and graduate degree programs online to students regardless of location, including an undergraduate Computer and Information Science (CMIS) degree. Not quite a CS degree, but it's something.
Check 'em out here:
http://www.umuc.edu/distancelearningdegrees.htm
UMUC isn't the only school that does this, but they have one of the most varied and time-tested distance learning curricula around.
Like $400/Credithour IIRC
Hit up a school that starts with calculus and the lowest physics there is calculus based, then test out of them. That'll save you time.
You're still screwed into sitting in a bunch of humanities classes taught by PhD's who think that their reading ability is somehow better than yours, and whose opinions are always correct.
Some CS courses are pretty cool, but then again you really can half ass all the projects even at good schools and still pull good grades.
Excelsior 'www.excelsior.edu' may have what you need. I got me degree, non-computer related, through them. No classroom time, just challenged courses. Before I'm flamed on this, it is a legitimate college under the State of NY and is an accredited college. It is not a diploma mill. Their degrees can be used for entrance into a masters program. Good luck!
I'm in a similar situation, and I looked into getting an MS in CS despite not having the bachelor's. Another option that schools mentioned was passing the CS subject GRE. If you do well on that, some schools with let you get in without having the undergraduate degree.
>busywork, you haven't worked on interesting
>enough real-world ones.
What nonsense. It means you were given inadequate school projects.
hawk, who declines assigning projects if they're just busywork.
Maybe its me, but I took graduated with a BD in computer engineering/CS a couple of years ago and I SERIOUSLY doubt anyone who has been programming for even 10 years could get a CS degree in a year. The math alone takes at least a year. A CS degree has little to do with actual programming and more to do with theory and math.
If you want to get a degree, it will take time. A Computer Science degree is not about programming and it's not about any work that you do in the field. It's about getting a college education with is a broad knowledge base on which you can build off of.
I was in your situation about 7 years ago, and I stopped working and got a degree. It has enabled me to design a lot better, but it has mainly gotten me to think about life a lot differently. I don't think that this happens to that many people who get a college degree, but I immersed myself in the scholarly culture (the minority of what is at Universities today).
My point is that the college degree doesn't really enhance your career, except with a some employers. If you do it, do it for youself and not for any perceived career enhancement.
You say 'the old myth is not true'.
Last year's usenix survey shows it to be VERY true.
Companies will not put you into upper management positions if you do not have a degree. period.
I recently returned to college with several years of industry experience, as well as several research positions under my belt. My descision to go back to school was two fold; I love learning and can't think of a better place to do it full time, and do I want to build bridges or design them? College affords me oportunities that no employment ever could. If you rush through a degree, you will miss all the other awesome things that college can provide. Don't look at education as a hurdle or an obstacle in life. School can (if you are actually talented) supplement your life in more ways than you can imagine.
I graduated from a top 10 engineering school, with honors, and a degree in Computer Science last May. I have received no offers in 7 months of looking. This implies to me that it doesn't matter what education you have. And if you've recieved 50% bonuses anually for the last few years without an education, I'm surprised that you aren't more satisfied with your current situation.
Yup, you're a mathematician alright! :) I see nothing wrong with your idea, but it amuses me that you didn't also recommend literature, anthropology, interpersonal relations, public speaking, etc.
I've met and know a lot of great programmers. The ones who are still employed right now are the one who have paid attention to their soft skills.
So, there's this idea of "correct background/complete knowledge" and there's this idea of "valuable to businesses". They do play off each other, but they aren't the same and you have to decide which one is more valuable to you.
ARR0, I am curious though. Having the background in mathematics that you have, you've inevitably suffered through the best and worst ways to learn math. If you could do it over again and had the opportunity to select the fashion in which you would be educated mathematically, what would you select? I'm only curious because I'm someone who likes the ideas of math and the ways in which it contributes to analytic thought, but I've always been put off by a variety of factors. TIA!
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
There are several routes to getting accredited or non-accredited degrees. If all you want is a line on a resume, there are many outfits that will sell you a piece of paper for a few bucks. I don't think that's what you are asking for, though. There are real schools that teach classes through "distance learning" and will do so on your schedule. They may or may not be accredited, which is essential in some usages. I would highly recommend purchasing a book (yes, paper) entitiled "Bear's Guide to Nontraditional college education" (or something to that effect). It lists many options for getting "real" college degrees without actually spending years in classes that people in the real world can't really do. Don't think that it will be easy, though. There really is a lot of information that is taught in classes that you don't usually run into in the real world, but that a knowledge of will help you to get a fuller picture of what's really going on. Good Luck!
Different countries have different universities - here in Denmark you actually only have CS and math classes while studying cs - so yes, you actually can do it over one year if you're good enough - many people try, but there aren't anyone who can do it in less then 2 years (2 years FULLTIME studying)..
"I have a degree from MIT"
Ooooooo, YOU RULE DOOD!
"Anytime, anywhere. "
Shows a limited degree of thinking.
"How do you want to do it? See who can write a compiler in 6 days? how anbout write a functional OS in 30 days?
How about write a program to completely operate an advanced satalite under 640K?
Want to write a SCSI driver in assembly? "
Let's see here. Already wrote a compiler... already wrote a functional OS... 640k for satellite control? That's a lot of space for a control program. No need to write a SCSI driver since there are plenty out there as it is (same for the OS). BUT, all things considered there's nothing realistic on the table. Certainly nothing that APPLIES to a real world application (other than the satellite. Of course, if you can't even spell satellite I kind of expect that challenge to be a hands-down win for me) that hasn't already been done. How about 'the servers just taken a shit with no indication why and your boss is on your ass because he can't get to his precious database of S/M porn... what do ya do?'
"Lets ee if my amazing kreskin powers are working:"
You must have developed those powers at (dum dee dum-dum) MIT!
"You program in VB....and know enough PERL to open a database."
Nope (I can and have, but.. no). A far as PERL goes... far, far beyond databases. What I've done is actually used by people every day with no complaints. I wonder, with all your fancy-schmancy MIT rote training, if you can say the same.
-
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
Ok, here's some of the experience I've had, and the conclusions I've drawn from them:
./'ers are not taking into account that you don't just need a degree to move into management. You might also need it for the leg up on your competition. Take this economic heap of steaming s___ that we're in. If you're laid off, then you are most likely competing with several other people who have the same qualifications and who were also laid off. Given the pick, who would most managers choose? You got it, the guy with the degree. Why? Chances are, he'll catch less hell from his management.
The degree isn't always required to get a good job. And you can live a good life without ever getting one. However, for good and bad, there are people who are unwilling/unable to hire non-degreed people. It's just a fact. Most
I personally have fought this battle my entire career. I've spent time on the degree on the side because I will eventually need it some day. For all of you out there who are still having a problem with the idea of getting a degree just to satisfy some suits, look at it using this analogy: neighborhood hockey. Lemme explain:
You might just be the best damn player in the neighborhood. All the other kids know it, and you're THE first to be picked. The only problem is, on Saturday, you can't play with them because you didn't pay the municipal fee to play in a city league. Therefore, when you go to the rink, the Ref is going to have to keep you from playing. Does it mean you are any less qualified? Absolutly not. It just means to some suits in your city government, you haven't paid the fee, and can't play in the official league for whatever reason they've come up with. Possibly an issue of liability for the city, or maybe something else unseen to you. It doesn't matter what reason they use though. You still can't play, because they say so.
You see, you will always be able to get a job without the degree, but it's going to be harder. You will end up fighting more for those positions.The degree is a key to open several doors that you can't open on merit alone.
Now, in respect to the experience you get with a degree, here are a few comments:
a degree does not an engineer make.
experience does not an engineer make.
It's the combo of the degree (theory) with the experience (practical knowledge) that makes the best engineers. The theory tells us how something
is supposed to work, and the practice tells us where the theory is wrong so that the theory can be refined. You can operate exclusively in either domain, but you will get the best results in the area where they overlap.
As for the BullS*** arts classes that they make you take? Well, believe it or not, they're very useful too. History enables you to see patterns
of behavior in human culture. So does poly-sci and psycology. English ensures that you will be able to communicate your ideas clearer. Foriegn language expands your view of "those" other people in other areas of the world, as well as helps you communicate with them in an ever increasingly global market. Business and economics gives you the ability to identify trends your future employers will be following, and will give you a set of tools to judge how well they are doing in whatever market they're in.
Besides, let's remember who our customer's are: the non-techies. Yep, you'll be dealing with them some day. And you'll do much better if you have a way to talk with them. That's where the Liberal Arts classes come in.
Just some thoughts and conclusions.
PacketKing
Ignorance is lacking knowledge, stupidity is a choice of ignoring knowledge.
I'm not sure how this off topic rant got started, but I'm an eagle scout too. And banning fags from BSA is great idea. There is no reason to let potential sex offenders (which is completely profiling, but they are FUCKED in the head!) near young impressionable boys.
I am the root bridge.
If you have NO college, look at least 3 years, possibly more if you are still going to work.
Most colleges limit the amount of credits per semster to 21, so if it takes 128 to get a degree, you do the math. Again if you're working there's no way you'll do more than 6 credits a semester.
-Bob
Well, you could do what most guys do: Never go to class until the final and take it blind and Ace it. That's what I do. (I wish)
Does this mean that BSA should ban heterosexual males from Scouting too? btw, I am an Eagle Scout.
The Natural Science requirement says they have to take two courses in the same discipline. I advise people to do Physics because the department has great teachers and because it can give one a new way of thinking about the world, but a lot of them end up in Geology - "Rocks for Jocks." Nonetheless, when you are doing two courses in the discipline, you're bound to end up with something of a grasp on its concepts, and hopefully it'll make you a slightly more scientific thinker when you graduate.
grep -ri 'should work'
To get any bachlors degree from a univeristy you must complete all the require course core as WELL as the General Core. So even if you could clep all the CS classes and the Advanced Math Calc 1-3, Ordianry and Differential Equations, Linear Algebra and Discrete Math(the Easiest). You still will have to take all the general Core classes like humanities, sciences, and social sciences. Those classes pretty much make the difference between Vocational and Academic.
There is a way to do it in 2 years though. You could take about 32 Credits a semester (providing the school allows it) and dont sleep or work. I consider 16-18 A full load my self.
A two year college requires 64 credites to get an associate degree this would get you Most of the math calc 1-3 and all the core then you could transfer the degree to the univeristy you want and probably clep and sleep through the rest.
The advantage of a 2 year school is that you could probably work night classes into the equation so you still work, but bear in mind this isn't going to be easy.
Jordan Hubbard of FreeBSD/Apple never went to University...
interesting perspecitve. A little frightening, being a gay eagle scout myself. I recognize the BSA's right as a private organization to bar groups of people from membership, but I think they are doing a great dis-service to the participants of the program. I think that I have a lot to offer back to the Boy Scout program, as do others who could be potentially effected by this policy.
I also think that if you did a little more research, homosexual leaders are statistically no more likely to become sex offenders than heterosexual leaders.
Free Spelling Lessons for all craig's List Posters
Before the 20th response "correcting" this: I meant median, not average. Indeed I stated median, and further clarified it by saying that 1/2 of the students fell below 112 (thereby clarifying my statement that it's the median), but I inadvertently left a prior reference to "average". I shall pray to the gods to forgive me. Dear Taco please forgive me!
Secondly, I am NOT saying that a degree has no value, but the purpose of the degree is to give you the knowledge, and it's the _knowledge_ and _skills_ that should stand on their on, not the pursuit of it (i.e. most CS grads who went into it because they love the field will likely be very knowledgeable). Imagine, if you will, going to the race track, but rather than actually racing the cars (getting quantitative metrics of their relative value), they instead talk about the number of hours they put into designing them, with each of them pulling out sheets showing the pedigree of the iron and the gamma-quotient of the paint job. The `noble pursuit' justification for a degree is of dubious value as well given that many students use university as a way to put off the "real world", rather than as a great laborious pursuit.
That a large number of posters are banging on about a broad and general education.
American degrees are usually discounted by good European universities precisely because they have insufficient depth in the claimed "specialty".
Mandatory Literature classes?
Mandatory Maths classes?
The old adage: You can lead a whore to culture but you cannot make her think.
seems strangely appropriate.
My advice to the original poster:
Many 1-year masters degrees are available from British universities for people in precisely your situtation. Start with Oxford, who have an excelent course, or just do some Googling.
Most universities are turning out people who are barely literate in any of the stable, long-term, popular technologies.
You assert that these technologies are only useful in expressing some higher form of cs theory, but the most profound cs theories are already embodied in these very technologies which you disregard as inconsequential.
Think about it this way - would you want a medical doctor to practice medicine the way you believe computer science should be learned and practiced? I think not.
One of the biggest reasons for companies requiring you to have a college degree is that they want to know how much bullsh*t you can tolerate. They know that going thru college, you must get past many b.s. filters --- that's what college really is, it's not an "educational process" it's a "filtering process"... in the end you actually teach yourself the knowledge you went to school to get, the school didn't give it to you, you learned "how to learn" all on your own. If you've got the "right stuff" to make it thru college and put up with all the useless bullcrap they put you thru to get your degree, then you'll have the right kind of personality to be able to deal with all the bullcrap the world of business will throw at you. That's why they always require a degree... it's proof of a right of passage, not proof of knowledge.
You USanians sure are foolish, judging from the supplicant's question -- defining "making progress" by how much you earn and how far you are in the rat-race ranking. Hah! From an European pinko leftist commie standpoint, I say you're fucking crazy to define yourself by what you earn!
But no. Computer Science should be studied because of its innate beauty, not entirely unlike mathematics or physics, not because it'll give you something that'll help you with your big career. Getting a "paper CS degree" won't cure you of any incompetency you might have, either; it may get you past some of the clueless HR departments (fucking nigh all of them, really) but that's about it.
Take my word for it, kiddo ("I've got a pair of shoes that're older than you, so shut up!"): it's what you *know* that counts, not what you *earn*.
I've been in the IT industry for 16 years now, the last 6 in management. I almost finished a degree in 1985, but the fact is I do not have one. My story is similar to yours -- get started, work your way up, do not accept unnecessary limitations. It's always encouraging to see that others occasionally follow this path.
I have hired people ranging from non-degree up to MSCS. Looking at the performance of the entire group, the degree people fit the "normal curve". Some good, some bad, most were at least adequate. The non-degree people were hired only when they could demonstrate superior skills. As it happens, those skills made them top performers when it was time to actually do the job. Of all the non-degree people I have hired, I have yet to be disappointed.
In my opinion, the degree is part of the selection criteria ONLY when ALL of the applicants are light on experience.
Some of the other posts are correct in that certain industries are militant about the degree requirement. Around here the common examples are government, insurance, defense, banking, and pharmaceuticals.
Case study #1: I once hired a guy whose only work experience was as a VCR repair technician. He was an engineering/computer hobbyist, whom I had known for years. He was an incredibly sharp guy, just a little unfocused. He was part of my staff for a few years, and then left to become a system manager for one of the largest banks in New England.
Case study #2: Same story, except this guy was an electrician who was doing mostly Cat.5 network wiring. He was on my staff for a few years, and is now the network manager for an state government agency with a very sophisticated WAN and LAN environment that includes numerous remote sites and thousands of PCs.
Case study #3: I knew another guy who earned an ASEE. He looked for a job and found nothing. He goes back for an AS in Data Processing. New job search, same result. He goes to another college and earns a BSCS. Still no job. Finally, he goes to college #3 and gets an MSCS, and EVENTUALLY, a job installing PCs and LANs in Georgia. We would still be driving a van full of PCs from Georgia to Alabama if I didn't hire him. Since then, he worked his way up through operations and became an Oracle DBA. He now works for a major pharmaceutical company, so things worked well for him too. Then again, if he never graduated from anywhere, I don't see how his life would be any different today, aside from possibly earning an additional 6 years of salary.
Let's face it, when the IT job market is cold, MOST applicants are going to get excuses instead of job offers. In such a tough market, you have to outwit, outplay, and outlast your competition, degree or not. In a hot IT market, the offers are out there, and exceptions are being made by employers, beyond what most people can possibly imagine.
Does the lack of a degree reduce my theoretical number of potential employers? YES, it does. However, I don't expect to get an offer from every interview. No one ever does. In my career, I have interviewed about 12 times and received 5 offers, for a hit rate of about 42%. Did I get "screened out" of several opportunities? Sure, but who cares? I only accepted 2 of the 5 offers, and I've been promoted 6 times by two employers during 16 years of uninterrupted employement. I don't let the degree become an obstacle, and every so often I find employers who agree with me. After all, I can only DO one job at a time, right? If I apply for ten jobs and I'm ranked #1 once and dead last for the other nine, that's a hell of a lot better than being ranked #2 all ten times, as described in case study #3 above.
In my opinion, things that don't make you a #1 choice are not all that useful. To me, the degree is what helps you reduce the number of reasons why an employer might NOT hire you, but it's not as valuble as adding a reason why they WOULD hire you. Think of yourself as a hiring manager. Can you imagine telling your boss something like "I hired Joe Smith because he has a degree." On the other hand, would you rather say "I hired Joe Smith because he has great experience." To me, one of those statements sounds much better than the other.
methinks that this is all down the wrong track, Perhaps instead you could go to an overseas university that would (with a few interviews) let you go straight into a MSc (CompSci) if you can prove that you have the experience. I Know that Otago Uni (NZ) does this, and I have a feeling that some Europian ones do as well
The reason why so many people value degree's is because all of a sudden every moron with fingers thinks he's a super computer genius. And people are getting ticked when they hire somebody and they turn out to be pure BS.
Schools don't fasttrack and if they do then they arent worth the paper the diploma's written on.
You can test out a few classes but thats probably it. Going to a real school requires hard work. And my school gave me some of the hardest projects ive ever seen in my 15 years of programming on the job.
You write a complete-OS/Compiler/Compiler optimizer/Par Proc algorithms/etc and compare.
Most of the crap we do on the job is data driven, easy, no real thinking or problem solving.
I got my M.S. in Computer and Information Science, specializing in Cybernetics and Artificial Intelligence, from the respectable University of Massachusetts at Amherst. Of course, this might not have been possible if I hadn't started programming in 1966 (IBM 1130, Fortran IV), earned a B.S. in Mathematics from Caltech, earned a B.S. in English Literature, and gained consulting, management, research, and teaching experience first.
Maybe it can be done in under a year, but not by me. BTW, my 12-year-old son just aced his college entrance exams (equivalent 1250 SAT), and has been strongly encouraged by Cal State L.A. to start college as a 13-year-old freshman.
As all the posters say, CS is not just programming. I taught 12 different programming languages in grad school, but also Artificial Intelligence, Compiler Theory, Graph Theory, and so forth.
Even with my extensive experience, I still got bogged down in the Ph.D. process. I wrote what is arguably the world's first Ph.D. dissertation in what's now called nanotechnology (I called it Molecular Cybernetics), but the ad hoc thesis committee never became a formal thesis committee, so my dissertation was neither approved nor rejected.
Don't expect a Royal Road to any degree. The exception: get rich, make a nice donation to the school, and they'll skip the danged degrees and make you an Adjunct Professor.
I wont argue with what others here have said about what a degree and diploma represent. That's all fine and dandy.
It seems to me that the person with the question might have a resume that represents much the same thing. I know that my resume shows a combination of formal education, self education, work experience, hobby experience, etc. that gives little doubt as to what I can do. My resume also shows a broad range of experience and education as well as showing that I complete major projects that I choose to take on (I just didn't choose to take on a college career).
What I'm saying is, for some of us, a resume and job perfomance can stand up as well or better than a diploma. If you are the right person for the position you wish to advance to and your employer chooses someone else simply in favor of a degree....time to step back and look at who you're working for. If they are telling you that a degree is required for advancement then they really don't have their priorities set right. They aren't looking at the goal (i.e. putting the right person into the position to get the maximum benefit).
. Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
Pssst, hey buddy... come here a little closer so I can tell you all quiet-like what you're gonna do.
First, find a credible University with poor computer security in their administration department, and then hack yourself in to look like you've been a transfer student with good grades. You can then take a final semester of the interesting classes you need to complete your degree.
Yeah that's the plan. Real easy and all. Just take after me - I'm a bonafide PhD!
I chose not to finish college because I was pressured by my parents to find a job. Several times since then I've thought about going back, but I'm making good money now and I'm pretty sucessful. I don't want to go back to school full time (and give up my job), and I don't want to spend 20 years getting a degree ethier.
:)
:) and is it worth going to night school for 7 years for it?
So I'm in the exact same situation our "Ask Slashdot" person is in (I'm even the same age.. scary..
Reading through this I was hoping to find insite into ways to get a degree fast, or what you can do instead of getting a degree. Instead I find two camps of people. People who don't have a degree, and are proud of that fact, and people who have a degree and defend it with words like "It's not just programming" and "You want a degree in one year? You arrogant bastard."
Between this and my observations at work, I've decided that a degree isn't worth it. Several of my friends have degrees from Georgia Tech in EE or CS. Most of these guys are fast learners (they'd have to be, to survive Georgia Tech) but they ethier can't program at all, or don't program very well. The guys with EE backgrounds don't understand circuit design.
Luckily they're in networking so they don't need these skills as much, but if someone comes to me and says "I have a CS degree." I expect them to be able to answer basic CS questions. Now I get responses like "Oh, well, I got my CS with a focus in telecommunications." (Which apparently means you can pick the words 'T1' and 'CSU' out of a quiz and you understand search engines)
Is this what the best schools are teaching their students? Is this what I have to expect if I go and get a degree?
Thats why I've decided not to go back for a degree. I can already give presentations, do research, and troubleshoot problems. I can already manage people and program. What will finishing college give me (I've very proud of my two years.
I think alot of you are 50k in debt with student loans and you want someone to say "you're smart, and your peice of paper is worth the price."
The truth is, for those of you still in school, that the job market is dead now, you'll be lucky if you can find a helpdesk job, much less something in programming. You'll probably spend 10 years looking for a comfortable job, and the rest of your life paying off those student loans. I hope thats what you were looking for.
As for me I plan to retire at 35 (maybe sooner or later, depending on how my plans go).
You could just stop whining & feel happy and lucky that you're still employed in the tech industry unlike many others.
If you got an undergraduate degree with a good GPA, you might want to think about getting a Masters. I know that University of Chicago accepts people without Computer Science undergrad degrees for a Masters program in Computer Science. http://masters.cs.uchicago.edu/index.phtml?node=9
I graduated from the University of Utah with two humanities degrees. As a part of my coursework, I also took three semesters of calculus, three semesters of physics, two semesters of computer science and a semester of human evolutionary history -- all of these are serious science classes, as far as I'm concerned.
I think a lot depends on the quality of the institution one attends and the degree to which the institution itself has "joined the modern world" so to speak. For example, my university was wireless-ready across the entire campus, and things like registration, tuition payments, grades, assignments, etc. were all handled primarily online. I have friends who have graduated from schools that are still basically paper-based and who often don't require much in the way of math, science, or computing skills.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Not Problem!
Sign today for Wattsamatta U. CS program!
Complete class in week!
Drink lot of beer!
Send out for Chinese!
Learn speak in arcane dialect, like top TA!
Prestige frame degree print on 100% recycle cardboard!
Attach to resumee for great justice!
If you live in the EU, there is a computer study test that is being taken on computer subjects only, just to credit the knowledge of computers. Like how to use M$ products mainly. If you want to have a real computer science /study test, there is not anything yet I presume...
- Panos
that's not to say I never attended college. I went to 3 universities and in my final transfer, I found that some credits didn't xfer over for some reason and I was about 2 courses short of a dual math/comp-sci degree. I figured I'd go back at night to complete the degrees (I had a job offer and was excited to immediately start in industry).
But why just quit when you were so close to finishing? I'm not trying to be insulting, just curious. For me, I was 2 classes away from finishing my Master's when I had to transfer from my old college campus. Fortunately a branch campus of the same university was near my new location and I am wrapping things up there. Considering how much I owe on student loans, I would never dream of dropping out because it'd be a total waste of money for me. I figure if I'm paying off this money, I might as well have gotten something for it.
In case of fire, do not use elevator. Use water!
Okay, I don't know about all of you psychos/morons/idiots/10 year-olds out there who say "What? $200,000 a year at only 24?! That's impossible!", but you should check yourself before you wreck yourself.
A good friend of mine, we'll call him Bob, is currently 23, owns his own **house**, a 2000 Audi TT (black on black), about 20 computers (laptops, linux boxes, mac boxes, winxp workstations, and others), a 50 inch plasma flat screen, two XBoxes, a Gamecube, a PS2, and just about every game under the sun that he wants or even just thinks is cool. He also recently (i.e. "gave himself for christmas") a 2002 Ford Explorer.
How much does he make? $180,000, plus full benefits (med, dent, life, 401k, paid sick, paid vacation, etc etc).
He dropped out of Brown University because he thought it was too slow, and went on to start what is now a major consulting firm in Massachusetts with a few of his friends.
Never *ever* think that you can't reach your goals or chase your dreams. He did, and I envy his strength and resolve every day. Sure, he went through some rough patches at the beginning because he had a few bitchy clients, but eventually he started getting more and more work to do, and finally - through just being able to network with the people around him (he's a really friendly guy) - ended up landing some contracts with the big boys.
Corporate Gross? He happily told me a few months ago that their fiscal year closed at over $5,000,000.00 US.
Think about it: you're 18, you drop out of college to follow your dreams, and you make it big. Sounds like fun to me. Now, while I don't know the guy who posted this article, I will say this: just answer his damn question, or leave the guy alone. If you have a problem with him making so much money, maybe you should e-mail him and ask him HOW he does it, or what made him follow his dreams, instead of just saying "Oh, you're a liar."
Losers.
-Anonymous Coward
-spark396@yahoo.com
Rather than get into the "University is not a trade school" debate, I'll just make a comment based on my experience.
At my school, we do offer "special certifications" (which are recognised as equivalent to degrees for grad school purposes) to people who have ALREADY COMPLETED A RELATED DEGREE. Example: I'm a Physics major. Once (/if) I graduate, I can take a CS special certification part time in two years. I could not, however, take a special certification in, say, British Constitutional History, because I do not possess the requisite common courses.
Now, what I'm trying to get at is this... What you're probably lacking is not the CS part of your degree, but the common courses. I had a look at CS at my University - in addition to regular CS courses, you are required to take courses from Math (up to the derivative calculus of functions of many variables, which is not too tough (trust your friend the physicist)), the Sciences (usually Physics or Chem, but possibly something more exotic), the Arts (18 credits == 6 courses, same as every other B.Sc. And that means a full-year English course too), and so forth...
Basically, what you would have to make up is the generalised portion of the education. Having taken some CS courses, I also suspect you'd have to get into the symbolic logic and algorithmic analysis that most corporations don't use (but should).
Suggestion: Enroll as a part-time student. Challenge, by writing exams, the courses you already know how to do. This should be more than half. With some luck, you'll be able to complete the degree in 2 - 3 years part time.
Anyway, just a throught...
In Soviet Russia, sig types you!
those do expire you know ;-)
A degree never expires :)
I wonder, about all those who think a degree is too expensive and who think certifications are the way to go... after you spend all the money to become certified, and then spend more year after year after year to be recertified... do you really save anything? You most likely end up spending more money (this includes books, classes and tests)
With a degree on the other hand, you get the respect, and you are also secure in knowing you may never have to take another exam in your life (unless you choose to)!
Also, what would happen if the company making the certifications went under? That is a distinct possibility these days, especially with companies like Redhat... is all the money you spent on the certification wasted?
In case of fire, do not use elevator. Use water!
The University of Chicago has a year long master's program aimed at individuals who do not have a bachelors in CS. A few of my friends went through it after their BA's and had a positive experience.
-Bill
U of C '97
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
Why not take a course at the Open University (www.open.ac.uk)? It's as real as any other university, and you work in your own time from home (so I guess you *could* do it in a year, but I wouldn't recommend it). I'm not sure you'd be able to do it from the US, but it's worth looking at, especially as it has the additional benefits of a British degree (more detail, cheaper, etc).
Maybe something like 15k (which is VERY common). I started at 18k back in the early ninties and received 30% raises for 4 years and then left my employer for better wages elsewhere. If he was at 15k then he would be at 75k after four pay increases (which is what 5 years of employment would provide).
If your going to do anything outside of a technolgy field I'd recommend getting a BS in *anything* since it won't matter what the subject is, so much as show your "status". If your working in any kind of technology field it's definately better to stick with certifications in your field of work/interest. The Reasoning: My girlfriend (25) currently works as an inside sales rep for a tech company, before she had her degree (BS in Marketing) she was stuck as a marketing intern with a glass ceiling. She got her degree makes 40k plus commision (usually comes to about 50-55k a year). I (22) currently work as a graphic designer for a real estate company. I never went to college but have a few certifications in my field - and have a kick ass portfolio. For every job I've applied for the only thing I am ever asked for is my portfolio (i've been hired for every job i've applied for) I like what I do and currently make 40k salary with a perk of 30 days a year paid vacation (which I spent in europe last summer) Conclusion: My GF with the BS in marketing makes more $, but its her commission that makes her more money, NOT our base pay. Note also that I am 3 years younger than her :) and have way less stress in my career also.
Ave Molech Setting
...if you think you can go from no classes at all to completing a CS degree in one year if you are working full time.... nd I am referring only to the CS portion - the core classes are a whole other issue.
It just don't think it is possible, given the sheer amount of work required. A lot of it is easy, but still it is time consuming.
Just start taking the classes - it goes by quicker than you think, and with your experience you should be able to waive alot of the BS (and I am not referring to the degree) "Introduction to Programming" type of classes.
Besides - I have no doubt that you are a good or even a great programmer... but without the mathematics portion of the degree you will always be unprepared for the truly challenging programming. How can you model a satellites orbit if you don't understand the math? You can't.
There is nothing wrong about getting an eduation for the sake of getting an education!
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Education itself is always behind corporations
Complete drivel. Corporations are mainly cranking out the most boring, misguided, mismanaged, backward-thinking software imaginable.
You could go to Britain and get an MSc with no effort. But then again you could go to Mexico and get yourself an MD with no effort, couldn't you?
Money is irrelevant. If you just want a piece of paper that says I'm a certified computer science plumber then you should go to Kinko's and make one. Not trying to be mean. Computer Science or any other degree is not about money it is about education. If you already know everything then you don't need the paper. Granted only a limited portion of and undergraduate is actually related to your 'major'. So shortcutting the degree doesn't make sense. You are missing the point of study.
because it was the time of year when my class was graduating and I felt I should have left college as well. being 2 courses short didn't bother me all that much; and more importantly, I had a JOB OFFER which I didn't want to turn down.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Fast Track. You display poor grammar and spelling skills, and your simple query is enormously redundant and windy. I'm going to take a great leap here, and say that many of your other skills are in the same lackluster condition. College takes 4 years precisely because you have to take support classes for your chosen focus. Right now, you would barely pass English Grammar 101.
If you must have a fast track for a vocation, go to a vocational school. If you want a real education so that you don't look like an illiterate fool, spend the four years for the university degree. Degrees are not worthless shods of paper to show off a skill, they are a testiment to your dedication to better yourself in many academic fields, and better yourself as a learned person.
You Fail.
I think it is sad that nowaday a CS Degree is still required to work (or, well, to achieve something in a company). Mainly because a CS degree (or, maybe better, a *good* CS degree) should have little to do with work. Studying CS has more to do with science than with work. I think a better way would be to study something related to economics... Studying is something you have to enjoy, instead of doing it just because you have to.
...
... after all ... it's getting more difficult to work as a computer scientist in the *outside world*. Companies now fear increasing the number of their employees because of losses in the IT Business, so they often require something more as a *simple* degree (a M.Sc. or, why not, a Ph.D).
I live in Europe and in CS we are suffering *a lot* because of the amount of people who want to study Computer Science because they want to reach something (i.e. earn money, or, more realistic, having a good position in a company). The problem is, most of the students fail soon or later because of the large amount of theory they have to learn. Even if they have been coding for 10 years, this doesn't necessarly mean that they also know everything about algebra, calculus, information theory, number theory, numerical analysis and so on
And
I hope this will help computer science to survive as a science and not just a chance to work (Mathematicians are very good researchers in the CS field, but we would like some more *real* computer scientists).
Have fun
Here's some tips for those with no degree and making your way through:
Don't insult your interviewer by bashing college degrees; focus on your actual accomplishments
Don't stay in one job for more than 3 years; remember that you have no degree and the only thing holding you up is job experience (and roll-over your 401k!!!)
Don't become complacent at your current job; network with people, get your company to send you to tech training (on the clock!), and always assume your job will be gone in the next downsizing
I **KNOW** that I could be making an extra 10k to 15k a year if I had a degree, there is no denying that. But I make more now than some people who've gotten degrees ... and I'm still employed.
m.mmm..myyy
Has anyone skipped a BS degree and gone directly into a MS program? A MS program tends to be faster and deeper than a BS, skipping non-major courses. Perhaps if one gets a high score on the grad school tests (GRE). However, GREs tend to test broad knowledge you dont encounter in a work environment.
Check out ACCIS http://www.aics.edu/. They have a correspondence degree for BSCS, you may be able to accelerate their program since it is supposed to be self paced.
You can approach many schools and see if they have the option to test of a class. Simply state that you feel you have enough experience to challenge the class by sitting a comprehensive examination. THat way you can get your degree from a recognized school. What degree were you thinking of applying for? I a MSc in Software Engineering. That could be something you could look into since you are already on the programming track. You could also try some of those online universities such as the University of Phoenix. Check it out. Hope it helps.
if you can finish this in one year, my hat goes off to you.
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
Also, there is a great deal hard work and dedication that goes into getting a degree, especially if it is with a good GPA at a good school. Such attributes are always desirable in an employee. There are other ways of demonstrating it, but it is a way. In contrast, those who come "two classes short", then say "I didn't see the point" might be able to succeed. But, at the end of the day, when they are passed over by someone who does have those "extra two pieces and just a piece a paper," the fact tht they didn't commit themselve to finishing a task comes to light.
I have worked in industry for almost ten years now. Though there are exceptions, education level usually implies the quality of the employee. The folks with degrees generally are able to produce better output of all sorts (programs, documentation, proposals, etc.), write more literately, and are able to adapt to a greater diversity of circumstances. Further, they are generally more presentable to bring in front of senior client folks.
One big question that kyrex presents, to me anyway, is, "where are you going?" He says that he feels his progress is hampered by lack of a degree. What is "the next step?" Perhaps he will be a project lead or a manager. In that case, he will need a lot of things such as project management, accounting and budgetting, and similar skills. I know the CS track at my school had those sorts of things built-in.
Also, in consulting, appearance can be a huge factor. While a low-to-medium level grunt coder can be any old bloke, someone in a position of responsibility (again, I'm inferring) would be responsible for the relationship with the customer. The customer needs to have faith. Twelve years experience might mean you have a diverse set of experiences that built to the role, or that you've been coding for twelve years. The college degree offers the cleint an extra warm fuzzy.
Finally, something I need to scream: A college degree is not certification!!!! Certification is like a driver's license: it demonstrates you can handle one discrete skill to a minimum level. A college degree shows you've been able to maintain a certain level of performance over a diverse set of trails, some related, some not. This diversity is what makes the difference.
I thought I'd share some experiences encountered over the past 20 years of working in Silicon Valley at companies like HP and Sun Microsystems.
I did not pursue a college education, and in some cases it directly affected opportunities, other times it had nothing to do with getting the opportunity.
It did though take me some time to move up the pay grades as an engineer.
If I could do it all over again...
I'd have started going to college right out of high school (even if it was only part-time) and would have worked towards two degrees. One in a hard-core CS environment and the other in a Liberal Arts program (philosophy, communications).
My motiviation would not be so much as to obtain specific work, or position myself to obtain opportunities within the corporate environment, but to provide myself with a foundation that assist me in being highly effective in whatever I choose to accomplish.
Over years I've observed many people changing careers. I watched young students come out of school, accomplish many of their goals as engineers. Eventually they would begin to look around for other opportunities, such as: management, marketing, sales. And from there another steep learning curve had begun. This is where the non-technical skills really became neccessary to be effective.
Some of the most accomplished people I've had the opportunity to work with have mapped out 5 year goals that included developing themselves to be prepared for tackle those goals.
Many people I've worked with over the past 20 years in the computer industry have gone on to be very sucessful without a CS degree, but a degree in another field, in some cases I've observed people without any formal education also become very successful.
Cowabunga,
qbalus
I've taken 1 semester of C++ programming. My skills are meager. Likewise, I know other languages such as C, LISP, JAVA and PASCAL but only at a rudementary level. Most of the pro coders from /. could easily code circles around me in any given language.
To a lot of people that are posting here, apparently this would make me a weak candidate for a job. But the fact of the matter is, CS is about so much more than any programming language. You can learn a language well enough to code in it in about 45 minutes with a good reference book. Knowing all the subtleties in the language can take much longer... say 3 weeks. The real essence of CS is learning to think like a computer. You need to have a full toolbox of data structures, you need to know how to manipulate these structures to do what you want, and you need to know how to optimize your code.
Even the greatest self taught programmer could fall into the trap of nesting 3 For loops. No CS student would make this mistake (unless it HAD to be done that way) because they would know this would RUIN the run time of their code and most good CS students would be able to figure out the way to get that O(n^3) runtime to at least O(n^2) or maybe even O(n). A self taught programmer might not even know what O(n^3), O(n^2), and O(n) represent.
The fact of the matter is, a formal CS education will give a person a sound foundation in the REAL concerns of CS in general. The sort of stuff that it has taken the computer industry 45 years to figure out. It's not about a single system, or a single language nor even a variety of systems or languages. It's really about ALL languages on ALL systems. A self-taught programmer would in most cases focus on the problem at hand, and all his experience will be worthwhile only for the system and language that he's dealing with. As I said before, if you know what you're doing in a general sense, you can learn any system and any language in 45 minutes. This is how the CS student is stronger than the self-taught programmer.
*disclaimer* -- all this was generalizations and you will definately be able to find many exceptions on either side of this argument... so take it for what it's worth.
I've been programming since I was 12 (I'm currently 24) and have read hundreds of CS books. Depends on what kind of books that you have been reading. When you get a degree in CS, you'll probably only read 9-10 books in 4 years. Networking, compilers, data structures algorithms, Architechture, Operating Systems, Theory of Computation and maybe some graphics, UNIX books, Database, Software engineering etc. BTW, C and C++ programming classes are freshmen classes and if you have just read what is needed by the industry, then you can get your degree in 2-3 years. But you're absolutely right. After you go through school, you can develop further. But, don't look getting a degree so contemptuously. You could go to a low tier university and get a degree in 1 year but what is the point of that? If your goal is to improve yourself with the degree, look towards 2-3 years or more at a good reputable school.
Before last year, I could find work without a degree. However, I found that since October 2000, nobody even wants to interview me. So, I'm back in college for a BS of CS. The fastest I could possibly complete it would be in 2 years, but since I'm trying to work at the same time, it will take me 3. C'est la vie.
I have a friend who has 12 years of experience but no degree. He's now in college, too. Good luck to ya.
Mi klopodas varbi por Esperanto.
Whats up everybody. I'm in the same boat as this guy. I'm 23 years old, I have 5 years IT experience and I work for a huge web hosting company and make a great salary. I have taken 2 college classes and then I got a job and a family and I have little to no free time to spend earning a degree at the moment because of alot of the overtime I work. When I got hired, my manager mentioned that if I were to have had a degree I would have gotten a higher salary but what I feel is that in the same amount of time that I would spend earning a degree, I could already be making that extra money. I have alot of friends who have went to and graduated from college and I'm sure it helps their salary out a bit, but aside from a small salary boost, I don't see why I would need a degree unless I was trying to move up to some sort of management/director type of position. I'm listening to all your arguments and I agree with some of them but I think that some of you guys are a bit bitter that you spent 4 or more years in college and there are guys like me who got an IT job right out of high school, have no college loans and make just as much money or more than you do and have had time to develop about 4 or more years of on the job experience than you have. The versatility that you guys are saying that you learn from completing a computer science program I believe you can learn on the job. I myself have network, systems, programming and architecture experience and thats about as broad as I think I need to be. Now at the same time, I would not mind having that computer science degree but I'm really not interested in the general studies portion of schooling that I would have to complete to achieve it.
:)
Ok now.. Getting back to this guys original question... do any of you guys know of any quicky-type computer science programs?
http://www.awwsheezy.com
I dont' know how much you can acctualy do of this , but Clepping is a decent way to skip alot of the basics (engligh math science) I would take A look. If you know anyone who left the millitary, ask them. Alot of the information before you grt out is how to turn stuff like that into a degree.
I know nothing...It is Ok because I am from Barcelona!
I have a brand-new BBA (Bachelor of Business Administration) in MIS, and you know what I see on nearly every *DECENT* job listing: X+ years of experience required or preferred. I have no experience and no one wants me. Granted, I live in a city of only 60k population (for personal reasons), but I've resorted to applying (and getting denied) for positions completely outside my career path like Police Officer, numerous secretary positions, a couple of loser customer service positions, etc. So far I've been rejected for them all, some nice enough to send a letter, but most not. Even the local Best Buy didn't want me. And here I sit wondering why I spent 4½ years of my life getting a degree they told me would be my ticket to a good career. Perhaps everyone goes through this and I'm just experiencing one of the many hardships in life.
*sigh* On to the next degree I guess...
Surely the point of a good CS background -- be it from a formal education or personal experience -- is that you've learned to think about things at the right level of generality to be useful?
A good computer scientist thinks about algorithms in somewhat abstract terms -- in pseudocode, if you like -- as opposed to thinking of them as a particular function in their favourite programming language. On the other hand, that same computer scientist would know how to implement that algorithm in a variety of programming styles, and those in turn on a variety of languages, e.g., implementing quicksort in C++ or in ML, and understanding the differences and similarities between these cases. There are obviously many similar stories throughout CS; the difference between structured, procedural programming, OO systems and a functional approach vs. the difference between C, Eiffel and Scheme, for instance.
The key thing is that each of these levels is important. People without a good CS background often overlook the more general considerations in algorithm selection, for example, and often write poorly designed code as a result. On the other hand, those too heavily into "formal CS" forget that the theory is worthless without an application. They're so busy tweaking the algorithm that they forget Knuth's rule about optimisation, and don't have time to write the 50% of their program that's UI.
Incidentally, I've noticed that with time and experience, people tend toward the same conclusions, whether they start from a formal training or "hacking" background. Things like learning your second major programming language are major milestones on the road.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Do you need the degree? Hell yes. But technically it doesn't matter. You can learn any subject from books and practicing the theory. Learning in class with a formal instructor rather than learning from someone with more experience on the job ammounts to the same thing. But it's not about the information.
Sure you learn a few thing you didn't know if you later get a degree. But you would similarly learn new stuff reapeating any coursework.
It's about paying your dues. And anyone that spent time paying their dues expects everyone that follows to also pay them.
Since you have to get a degree do not necessarily choose a field you already know inside and out. Since you have to go through a subject formally; choose a related field so that you actually learn something a lot more rather than a little more.
Interesting comment.
After completing my first degree in maths at [a top UK university], I took a one-year post-grad diploma in CS. Everyone there had already completed an undergrad degree in something, typically in a science or "business" area, but no-one had a prior degree in CS.
The diploma basically covered most of the "fundamental" courses from the first two years of the undergrad CS degree, often in the same lectures, but with less time in the labs playing with hardware. It included several key courses from the third year as well, though probably only half of the total (which was a shame; I'd have enjoyed some of the ones they missed). Finally, there was a very significant project involved throughout the year, basically a formal development of a piece of software as would be done by a real company, just scaled down. That made up something like 1/3 of the overall credit.
Now, the result -- a postgrad diploma in CS -- doesn't have the same status as a full undergrad degree in CS. However, I'd put the people in that room up against anyone who'd just completed the undergrad course. The CS grads would have had the edge in factual knowledge, but the "diplomees" could easily have picked up the notes for a missing course and read up on it. OTOH, their general skills -- self-sufficient learning, communications, organisation, and such -- were in a different league, having studied two formal subjects effectively at degree level, taken part in the large-scale project, and generally had that much more experience.
Anyway, I'm rambling, but my point was that getting the factual knowledge required for a good CS background can easily be done in a year with a bit of hardwark and good support. It's the general life skills that take the time, and those aren't CS-specific.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
to have a well-paying job and worry about such trivial things as proving yourself for a degree. I have a computer science degree and no one will give me a chance! I graduated at the top of my class in Computer Science this year and still can't find work. Going to college doesn't matter to recruiters when looking for a programming job! I even did tons of stuff (PHP, PERL, ASP, JAVA, etc., etc.) and it's not enough. All they want is work experience. Just keep working and it'll be enough, because I regret not dropping out and getting a job because now I wouldn't be looking for work (which I've been for over a year!)
One of the most talented hardware designers I ever met was a USAF vet, who'd been to pretty much every electronics course they offered.
;-)
He mustered out as a Sergeant, and didn't have any degrees, but I've never seen anyone else his age with such a comprehensive command of electronics from power supplies to antenna theory. Digital didn't really interest him though: he thought it was too easy
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
If you're thing is making money, keep it up. Going to college will only frustrate you as you see all these famous people who invented trivial pieces of theory that you probably developed on your own through experience... Then you will probably not feel like doing homework on junk that you've already done a million times and consider as busy work.
College really isn't much about the education as it is subversion and the ability to take shit from someone who's supposed to be more important than you. Then you're given a rank higher so you can stand with your bad self above the lessers who buy into the system.
I'm 24 too, I'm 70,000 in debt, and I'm about to complete a Carnegie Mellon Degree. I live in a house built in the 1800's in bad repair, and have 56k modem as my connection. You should stick with your money thing, its prolly working out for you.
God spoke to me
The Apple Lisa had a real OS. It failed in the market because the hardware of the day could not handle the OS overhead.
A degree is most important as part of the selection criteria. When an employer is looking at two qualified candidates with relatively equivalent work histories and temperaments, he's going to be looking for reasons to exclude one candidate or the other. So, we have one candidate who has a degree, and one who does not. Which do you choose?
If you've been unemployed in the recent economy looking to compete with other CS professionals, you begin to realize that employers can be a bit more discriminating now. Don't kid yourself and say that degrees are just a piece of paper!
What are your goals? If this includes management, a 4-year degree is required
I beg to differ. I don't have any degrees, but that didn't prevent me from joining KPMG as the manager for Data Security in their Electronic Commerce Group a few years ago. KPMG is about as old-fashioned as a hierarchy gets, BTW.
Similarly, two of the jobs I tried out for at Apple before obtaining my current job there were management jobs, and nobody raised any issue w/r/t degrees.
Now, that being said, I would agree that degrees are often helpful, but not having a degree is only a barrier if you *believe* it's a barrier.
Once or twice, someone's looked at my resume and said "I don't see where you went to school on your resume", and I've just said that I didn't go to college. They move right along from there.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
As a technical person, you can hardly do anything to help yourself better than to get your degree. Unfortunately, I haven't found a quick path to get a degree as quickly as you would like, not even for any of the most technically gifted folks I've met. There are simply some fundamentally required courses that "round out" an education (i.e. math, literature, etc.) I recommend you ensure whatever school you choose, make sure it also has Masters and/or Doctorate level courses offered. This will save you an awful lot of grief later on after you pick up your BS degree. There have been many folks that continue school after their four year degree, only to find the next school will not "fully accept" the BS degree and they try to make you take additional courses. I recommend just biting the bullet, map out your degree and just resign yourself to start taking the necessary classes. You will quickly find the degrees will just "show up" on your wall. Time goes by very quickly. Best of luck!
Companies will not put you into upper management positions if you do not have a degree. period.
Maybe companies wouldn't put you into and upper management position without a degree, but I've met enough CEO's and CTO's without degrees to know that your assertion is incorrect.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
For every success story as yours (much kudos) there are a many failures.
In my experience, the guys who went to college (real universities) have been more innovative and can grasp external concepts much easier in a interdisciplinary environment.
I can staff my body-shop with robots who know or taught themselves how to program but when I need project design and pure algorithmic solutions, I go to the rocket scientists with degrees in Math and Physics and Biology who can program.
I think if you are self-taught in CS and very good at it, with no degree go widen your horizons with a degree in Electrical Engineering or better yet double major in Physics and CS. The math, science and core curriculum is valuable in many ways. Writing skills, test-taking, cramming, math, statistics.. alot of the programmers I hire are good for one thing - code, not solutions
(Thats not to say its easy.. good programming is
still an art)
It makes it hard for me to promote any of them out of the "body shop" into the front office.
(Yes I know C++, Pascal, Assembly, Lisp, Prolog and ADA) but I got my degree in 4 years in Electrical Engineering, BIomedical Engineering and
Mathematical Sciences.
I'm trying to offer constructive criticism; please interpret the message in the spirit in which it is intended...
To me, it looks like half the problem might be associated with legacy technology. If I turn your message into an unofficial resume, it looks like most of what you work on is old stuff. Either this is part of the problem, or maybe the presentation needs to focus on what employers might really want. I have lots of experience working with DECnet, Adabas, VAX/VMS and SNA gateways, but I don't tell anyone, because nobody cares. I also have lots of experience working with TCP/IP, Cisco IOS, SQL, HTML, PHP, Oracle, MSSQL, Apache, Solaris, and Linux, and I proclaim it loudly. Could it be as simple as a battle of the buzzwords?
The other half of the problem is that the IT market is lousy right now, and you are competing with the low-cost labor, maybe even H1Bs. They all have degrees and they're cheap to hire. If you find yourself competing with recent grads or H1Bs, then you are losing based on cost, or the perceived salary requirements of a 44 year old vs. a 24 year old. A degree won't make you any younger or cheaper. I know of plenty of people with degrees who experience age discrimination, it still sucks no matter what.
As for having peers with less experience getting 20% higher salaries, that is quite possibly a function of when they were hired. During the upside of the IT job market, salaries for NEW employees escalate to keep pace with the market, but EXISTING employees are often taken for granted. Get hired in the wrong year, and you get screwed. I worked in state government, where everyone knew everyone else's salary. When mine was out of sync, I asked management to address the issue, offering to leave if they were unsuccessful. It worked (more than once), because the degree was never the real issue. Given the chance, the HR droids would have used the degree an excuse to do nothing, but the salary game is played by the removal of excuses, usually backed up by a willingness to pursue opportunities elsewhere. Those who are unwilling to quit are the ones whose salaries must be OK, according to HR. After all, whose responsiblity is it to read the salary surveys and find out if what you make is reasonable for what you do? With or without a degree, the only solution for an out-of-sync salary is a well-timed "fix it or else" attitude, with the appropriate, non-confrontational presentation.
At age 38, I've been lucky enough for long enough to the point where I think my career is on-track, despite my lack of a degree. What I fear most of all is getting locked into technology that goes out of style, leaving me behind as a techo-relic that nobody wants. A degree would not be all that helpful if I was perceived as an [expensive] COBOL/RPG/Y2K has-been.
I intend no criticism of your decision to pursue the degree -- it may actually work, especially if you can present it as a (real or perceived) modernization of your skills. I think the next step will be to find a way to avoid competing with the bottom of the food chain, because (A) you don't belong there, and (B) it sounds like you deserve a more senior position. I think if you were chasing the right posisions, you would not be encountering so many younger/cheaper people.
I jumped to numerous conclusions in the preparation of this message, and I apologize in advance for any that may be off-base, including but not limited to the distribution of unsolicited advice. Good luck.
"We're having serious problems with some of the junior coders writing programs that go into infinite loops and lock up our systems. I'd like you to write a program that will scan through a piece of code and determine whether or not that code ever goes in to an infinite loop".
Would you do it? If you have taken Theory of Computation you'd know that this is equivalent to the halting problem for Turing machines and thus is *impossible*.
Assuming, of course, that you're using a Turing-complete language. If you restrict yourself to a Turing-incomplete sublanguage -- which will nevertheless be sufficiently powerful for almost all purposes -- things become rather easier. As long as you maintain a strict separation between data and control (well, not quite strict: Conditional jumps are safe as long as the code paths recombine later), halting (and correctness) can be mechanically proved.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
I'm an English guy who did an excellent CS degree course in Manchester. On the visit I took while deciding which university to attend the lecturer addressing us told us "If you just want to learn to program, you don't need to be here. There are vocational colleges that can teach you C or whatever. If you want to be a cook of computing - who can follow a recipe really well - then that's your best bet. On the other hand, if you want to be a baker of computing, someone who really understands what it's all about, come here."
I was sold straight away.
Sounds to me like you want to have your cake and eat it - and that's really offensive to the many people who worked hard to get that proverbial "piece of paper."
It's a step backwards.
Instead, join a professional organisation. For example, The British Computer Society (http://www/bcs.org.uk/). There will be equivalent recognised engineering society in other countries.
Deleted
This thread seems to have an interesting trend. Ok so this guy says he has been working for a while without a degree and is now seeking one... Why does this seem to bother some of you in similar situations who DON'T want a degree???
Somehow this took a turn towards a flood of people saying "I don't have a degree", "You don't need a degree". What the hell is this. I DO honestly think that skills are the most important thing. Thats an obvious thing. But there is no way any of you can logically say that earning a college education is NOT beneficial.
You can tell your story over and over about how you've worked for ten years and don't have a degree. blah blah blah. I don't care if you make three times my salary. Your story does not negate the millions of people who graduate from college every year.
I don't doubt that you can still have a wonderful career in the tech world without earning a degree. I'd bet plenty of money on the fact however that for EVERY ONE of you guys with a story of how you've been a manager WITHOUT a degree for 'X' amount of years, there are a thousand doing the same WITH one.
I honestly think its great that many of you made it without having a degree. I love my job and I got here because of good skills and a college degree, but I don't think I am better than you because of it. In turn, you're not better becuase of the tract you took.
I've only seen one person in this thread who didn't graduate from college come close to remotely admitting that a degree does mean something. Many of you seem so defensive about not getting your degree. Hey it worked for you and thats great but your experience alone can't discount the facts for others.
One day when you all have kids, I hope someone shows them all your comments about how "USELESS" getting a degree is.
I am about to wrap up my Associates degree in Computer Science this May. (And my CCNA too!) I am also wondering how much it is going to be worth it to continue on towards a Bachelor's degree. It seems to be that when a degree is required, it is only that one is required, not what it is in. But still I'm left wondering. If I continue on with a CS degree, I'll be slightly excluded out from project management later on. But if I switch fields and try to tack on a Business Degree, coupled on top of my Associates in CS, I shouldn't have a problem then... Should I? Is it even worth getting a Business Degree (or Bachelors) at all?
I usually never respond to spam, but this was an offer I couldn't refuse. I am now accredited (through a major Somalia university) as "Grand Wizard of Windows XP Activation". My family was so happy that I finally quit that gas station.
Real world programming experience doesn't translate very well into academic computer science. I started programming when I was 12, and had learned a few languages and writtem some simple games when I enrolled at UT Austin. I thought it was going to be a total breeze. I was totally wrong. Academic CS at a top institution is very much into theory, proving concepts, and understanding the "science" part of computer science. To be blunt, you won't spend a whole lot of time coding. You _will_ spend a lot of time doing three-page predicate calculus problems, proofs of theorems, analysis of protocols, thought exercises on patterns of execution, etc. etc. etc. I'd estimate that the amount of time I spent actually coding in UT's CS program was about 10% vs the reading and paperwork. Plus, any accredited University won't let you skate by on CS credits alone. You'll need the regimen of liberal arts, math, philosophy, government, writing and natural sciences to complete your degree.
:) Despite what /. might make you believe, college can be pretty damn fun and sometimes even rewarding.
Plan on spending at least three years. Of course, you could try enjoying your stay and take a whole 4, 5, or 6 years.
On the other hand, some of the best coders I have worked with had no degree, or had a degree in something like English or math. Just avoid EE at all costs, if you want to be a decent developer.
Henry Cogswell (henrycogswell.edu) has a CS degree that emphasizes technical courses (it sounds like you don't want to mess with electives and humanities and such), and only takes 3 years anyway. If you test out of as much as possible a school like this might get you out sooner than most four-year programs. IIRC you do the last year in just evening courses, so in a program like this you might be able to do less than a year of full-time study, then finish up the degree while you work.
Disclaimer: I've never been to Henry Cogswell, and only know about it from having done some searches for schools in the northwest. I assume there are other similar programs around the country.
Good luck
Algoma University College in Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada. It's got what's called "Accelerated Second Degree Programs in Computer Science and Information Technology." It is 12 months long, from April 30 to April 30 the following year. You can find the program's website here. ;)
;) Sault Ste. Marie is also a border town, with a twin city located 5 minutes away in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan.
Basically, the program requires that you have a 3 or 4 year degree in anything BUT Comp. Sci. or I.T.
Apparently this program is pretty popular and really good. I don't know much about it, however. I never attented AUC, it's just in my home town. If you ever decide to attend the program, look me up
BTW, I'm assuming you're in the US, and with the value of your dollar, it's like 50% off every day in Canada
-kidlinux.
Im starting to see alot of companies NOT hiring folks UNLESS they have a degree.
And thats why I finished mine. There are millions of "Im a network administrator" sheep out there.
A cs degree take's dedication. And some brains. A MCSE is a joke, yeah i got mine. and a MSCD. Not even close to the work involved in a degree.
Not to mention you have the management potential.
What are you supposed to tell you flunky programmers? "well i dont have a degree, oh but you guys do" and they roll their eyes and go think "lamer, must be the owners son".
This happens in real life people. So don't brag to me your the Network admin for you company unless you back it up with something real. Network admin is something a half brain dead monkey can do.
Why are all computer idiots egotistical morons?
We all know your so smart and we all make at least 100 million.
I need to get out of this business, all the landscapers turned boy genius are giving it a bad name. Here's a good one "I taught myself how to make web pages!, now im a WEB PROFESSIONAL"... bahhhhh.
I actually did my (US) M.Sc. in Applied Mathematics at a well ranked University in a year- thus it is possible.
;)
I needed to pass 30 graduate credits mostly in Mathematics with C or better, including 24 with B or better, also including a project thesis and additional "basic" exams in Numerics and Applied Mathematics (PDEs).
I had a bit less than 15 credits (many Ph.D. levelled) per semester and both exams between the two semesters. I transferred a few CS and EE credits from another University to save work, but that wasn't really necessary. I passed all classes far better than required. (GPA 4.0/4.0)
The largest workload was the homework and thesis, but if you already know most relevant topics, it's acceptable. (I was quite involved in a University team and travelled around a lot, thus I didn't only do math...
If you really want to do your Master in that time frame, look for a University where you need a moderate number of credits and extra requirements, get your hands on sample exams on mandatory classes and try your luck. If you are able to solve them at once, you might be able to do it; else probably not: The homework alone will be too much for you.
Far more important than having a Master in that time, is to get to a good Masters program: For you and for the companies, which indeed know which programs are good.
Work experience is not the same as a formal education. They supplement each other well, but in the work field there are many things that you wouldn't cover depending on what you do whereas you would have at least a general understanding of them with a cs degree. There's a reason that jobs want that cs degree.
Check your local colleges to see if any of the cs program there would allow you to clep the lower level tests or possibly give you some credit because of your work experience. I wouldn't expect to the get the CS degree in just 1 year unless your want to take an absurd number of hours. Another obstracle is that higher level courses are only offered in either the fall/spring or every other year. Best thing is to talk to the graduate advisor for cs at your nearest college. I know that at my university there are people getting masters in cs without getting the bachelors, of course those were people that have a bs in something like biology and realized they wanted to so something else for greed or just plain boredom.
Hold on there. You'd be surprised how little working in the real world and reading CS books will prepare you for a real CS degree. I wouldn't rush in to this too quickly. College doesn't prepare you for your job. College prepares you to learn various skills in very different bodies of knowledge. Your job won't prepare you for college. Your job teaches you specific skills that rarely can be applied to a new track of learning.
You're searching for a quick fix and you're going to have to pay your dues like the rest of us....don't be so cocky.
The argument that a degree is a better assurance of qualifications for a company
is flawed on two fronts.
1. if the person interviewing you can't tell your skills without a degree, they
probably don't understand the technical problems in the first place. Do you want
to work for/with people who don't know?
Oh really? Just how does an interview determine someone's coding (or other) skills?
It doesn't. That's what degrees are for, to show that someone has the ability
to apply effort over time. No interview can do that. (My field is far simpler
than CS, there is no formal degree program, and I guarantee that no interview
will tell me if the person can succeed here.)
2. As others have mentioned, people with advanced degrees trained in research
have a different mind set than a programmer. Individuals great at both research
and application development are rare. Each job requires a different way of thinking
and working. You may want a researchers opinion about the architecture, but at
the low levels an experienced programmer is what you need.
Given that the individual stated that he was a consultant, I'd wager that a higher
level view is exactly what he needs. Even so, a low level programmer still needs
some knowledge of architecture to ensure that his code fits into the larger structure.
History shows that trained minds succeed, and college is generally where that
training takes place. Don't let the exceptions fool you about the existence of
an underlying rule.
I've talked to many graduates in CS and Engineering, as well as employers who come from either 'school' of being formally-educated or self-taught/certified. I am a Comp Engineer at U MD.@ C.P. (Go terps! ZOOOOM) Basically, the buzz is that a degree is *proof* that either you are an expert bullshitter, or you can *learn quickly*. Why do you think they throw huge textbooks at you, tell you to absorb it all in 2 weeks, and then make you take a test that will determine is you are going to pass or not. I have been programming since I was 6, starting with some old Commodore 64 I found in my garage. Worked for 4 years for a large corporation during high school doing everything from IT/Network security to executive consulting to random programming projects. I chose to go to college. I was offered a large amount of money instead of going to school, but I declined. College does teach you things pertaining to your field of interest.. but its main job is to teach you how to learn. I'm finding out the hard way ;P
My point was not about what exceptional people do, but rather what the college/university requirements are. Large numbers of humanities grads have the minimal experience with math, science, and engineering that I described. I commend you and your university for having the intelligence to update the curriculum, and I hope that the rest of the academic world follows suit.
Guns don't kill people -- people kill people.
But the guns seem to help a bit. (apologies to Eddie Izzard)
It's now in it's 14th edition and has changed names to "Bears' Guide to Earning Degrees by Distance Learning".
I have this book (actually the 12th edition) and I'm currently compiling my portfolio to submit to a credit bank for review. I met John Bear at a seminar he filled in for on non-traditional degrees and both what he presented and himself where extremely informative and thought provoking.
I've also been in the tech industry for more than 15 years. The last 9 with just 2 companies and averaged a promotion every 18 months and 18% year raise. I'm looking for a degree now (whatever legitimate degree I can accomplish quickly) simply because I learned from a few recruiters that with the number of people LOOKING for work, companies are trying to filter through the deluge of resumes they receive.
I've been offered every job I've interviewed for including a random encounter with a business man I ran into in Las Vegas in 88.
This post is heavily buried under the responses from this post, but if you made it here the link above should prove extremely helpful in your search.
Garth
Looking for a Product/Project Manager with a strong ecommerce background? garth -AT- wavi . com.
Kyrex doesn't say where he's from, but in the UK, and probably relevant to elsewhere:
Any decent company will consider 5 years relevant experience far above a CS degree (unless they're mired down in corporate bullshit). As a Tech Director for several companies, I've always perferred sound experience gained in an associated technical area above a degree - most of my best people haven't had degrees. Knowing how to get things done in the real world is not something generally taught at a Uni as is worth its weight in gold. Ability to learn and solve problems is more useful than exam passes.
Having said that, in the UK there is the BCS (British Computer Society) which provides an examination and certification scheme (right up to director level!) and they *do* take in the field experience as equivalent to degree/masters passes.
Although you might be able to take (and pass) the exams, few institutions are likely to allow you to do it in a year (usually due to beaurocratic issues).
You probably ought to try direct for the MSc. If you find a Uni that is friendly towards mature students, many will take your industry experience into account. They will require some proof of your capability and a strenuous interview, but if you're good will take you straight on. A good bet would be the Open University, if you're in the UK. It specialises in mature students, and takes a wide view of experience that demonstrates aptitude.
If on the other hand you are looking to move into management an MBA specialising in IT might be a better bet since that will take your experience and relate it to management issues which you won't get with a CS degree. These are also design to be taken whilst working so you can still stay up to date with the latest tech.
Depending on your relationship with your employer, it may be worth discussing this with them. If they want to keep you, many will allow a part time course or provide references for a Uni that could help a great deal.
University isnt about students learning, its just a factory that produces objects (graduates) that conform to a specific pattern (curiculum) as dictated by high level managment (governemnt).
University should be a place where people with common interest can congregate to learn from each other.
The only difference between a university and a trade school is the level of understanding (the depth) that the topics are covered.
You dont need to be smart to get a degree.
Most people go to uni to get the skills to work in an industry. and only ever use a small % of what they are taugh at uni in their job.
Therefore for most people university is a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME.
http://bbspot.com/News/2000/7/ellison_grad.html
AUC has an accelerated second degree in either CS or IT which only takes 12 months to complete, you must however already have a Bachelor's degree in some other discipline.
My problem is that I *want* to get a degree, and finished all the general ed for it. However, the required upper level classes for the degree are only offered at times when I have to be at work to pay for Food, clothing, shelter. I asked the dept chair about this and he said-
"Well, we only want serious students."
I am 35 and except for a few classes here and there, have a 4.0 gpa. I did this mostly while *having* to work full time. I thought I *was* a serious student, but guess not, because I have to work for a living.
It's easy for Universities to scream about the importance of degrees, but it seems what they really want to do is sell class time to parents of 18-22 year olds rather than us older, returning students. Anyway, rant off. By the way, this was University of Colorado.
"and some basic social skills are actually worth something"
You CANNOT teach basic social skills in a classroom, that comes from society.
Note that I'm *not* an Anonymous Coward, so feel free to reply to that. I'm willing to put my name behind my views.
Your mother named you "CoreDump?"
___
The ends are ape-chosen, only the means are man's. -- Aldous Huxley
"3) Know how to learn."
Ive heard the argument before that uni teaches people how to teach themselves.
What a crock of shit that is....
When i was in high school i could learn, even when i was in primary school i could learn, come to think of it from the moment we are born we are capable of learning...
Have you ever met someone incapable of learning ?
Perhaps you mean. Uni gives you a solid grounding in fields related to the one your interested in, which in turn makes it easier to learn basic ideas in the field you are interested in.
Problem: Americans DO NOT want to make enough money ... they want more money than anyone else out there and they have a need to succeed. Everyone wants to be the next Bill Gates, but no one will ever get that close ... you know why? Because while everyone wants to be Bill Gates everyone also wants no one else to be Bill Gates other than them. GUESS WHAT!!! Bill Gates is the only Bill Gates ... get over it ... I can safely say that most everyone at /. won't have to worry this tax season about having to calculate 10 number holding positions ... that's a billion for you people who don't get the joke ...
Why am I so defensive? Well because I have 50 karma points and can't go any higher ... :-) ...
But in all reality a degree is a way to get your feet wet ... if you don't talk to people at school, go to job fairs, or get an internship ... you might as well just drop out now ... because you've done yourself an injustice. You don't need a degree in life, but it sure does help.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
That's where universities come in to play. Employers don't have time to exhaustively test every applicant for their skill set, a resume can be padded with false experience (ask George O'Leary) and code from "previous projects" can be copied from the internet. "See, I've designed my own multi-user OS..."
If you, as an employer, want to hire someone who has been trained in an area, you also want some independent verification of that persons skills in said area. That's where degrees and certifications come in. The afore mentioned clept and Dantes tests also fall into this category for college students. You can't get credit for saying, "I taught myself Calc I." because most people would say it to avoid the class. Some employers and schools may be small enough or have enough HR people to sit down and spend several hours with each prospecitve student or hire and discuss their self-gained erudition at length, but most of the HR people I know don't have that luxury and even if they did, they'd consider it a waste of time when they already have an intake system in place. The same goes for most schools, I'm sure.
I'm not saying that it's right, that's just how it is.
Besides, the self-educating person you describe would kick @$$ in a college/university setting. You can attend school and be autodidactic at the same time you know. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Sorry, I disagree with you. I definitely consider programming to be an art and at the same time I completely disagree with the "you can't write a bug free program".
The thing that makes programming an art is that there is a lot of freedom with coding. There are certain rules you must adhere to, but there are not many of these. There are certain models of programming such as OO or functional that you can choose from. That is a lot like the different styles of painting such as impressionist or realist, etc.
Computers are far enough advanced now where we have many high-level languages that can help with prototyping. Personally, I'd rather develop an object model by writing some class definitions in C++ than using some crap like Visio and diagramming everything. I have recently learned of Python and all I can say is.. damn.. nice language. I even took a crufty shell-script of mine and rewrote it in python as a tutorial for myself. It still has a few crufty pieces where it has seemed easier to stick with some shell code, but for the most part it is just way easier for me to understand.
Another thing is that I think people who view code as art generally dislike all of the methods shit you get with CS. Sure, a lot of it is excellent stuff, but only seems to formalize what any programmer worth his salt should already know. Some of it is just outright shit. Use of goto considered harmful? What kind of shit is that anyway. I have seen many a program where one simple goto has or would have made a huge difference in code readability. Of course a lot of the CS types can't handle that because they are locked into this mentality of high-level constructs. Even look at statements like "break;" in C. All it is is a neutered goto. And it's a real crappy thing too since a beginning programmer will forget which high-level constructs a break will jump out of. Of course anybody using goto to jump out of an if block needs his head examined anyway. And it is true also that sometimes putting some stuff in a function can help minimize a lot of the need for goto. But the bottom line is that there are many different ways to code.
A good programmer knows what he has available to him and will use it all appropriately. A bad programmer will have a subset of knowledge and overuse a bad model for his task because that's what he knows. I feel that some of the good programmers are going to emerge as this century's artists. There are a lot of parallels between a good artist and a good coder. Don't get stuck in any one frame of mind.. that is the surest path to becoming a crappy programmer.
Anyway, this is way too long, and I probably haven't made my point anyway, but whatever. I'd also like to say that your comment on mathematics not being art is also incorrect. The best mathematicians are more of the philsopher type. They have an open mind. That to me is what art is all about, creativity, open-mindedness. To me those are far better qualities than someone who has been fed a load of crap on engineering. And I think you should ask these people you know who write these excellent programs if they think what they do is at least somewhat of an art form. I have a strong feeling that they will say yes.
...has the word "science" in it's title, like:
political science
social science
agricultural science
etc.
the degree has *nothing* to do with science. All the hard science disciplins don't even mention the word scinece:
physics
chemistry
molecular biology
etc.
If you want a degree that people aren't going to laugh at in another 10 years, I'd suggest that you pursue either:
Philosophy
Mathmatics
Engineering
or
Science
...but If you insist on studying the "science" of computing systems. I'd suggest you pursue a vocational track and take some classes at the local community/technical college.
what many science/engineering etc etc students don't realise that just because humanities students don't study units like calculus or physics etc, does not mean that our courses are totally devoid of science.
i was a political science major during my undergraduate studies and had a few lecturers with a penchant for mathematics. hence, most of the assigned readings included mathematical theory to derive the voting behaviour of certain constituents, or to balance the power of lobby groups.
but of course, from a transcript you wouldn't know that the courses were like that.
i would have loved to have taken computing at university but you also had to take x number of maths units and science units and that would have been more than my humanities units, which was not permitted.
let's not also forget that one of the main purposes of a university education is to learn how to communicate and attain a certain level of critical thinking. if these are considered humanities subjects, so be it.
I work with an uniquely excellent bunch of folks on one of the more quietly successful Linux distros (e-smith.org).
Our lead developer is an ex-veterinarian. Our VP of engineering has half a law degree. Our lead sysadmin has a chemistry degree. My nearest co-worker is just finishing up a classics degree. And I have a double bachelor in English Literature and Theatre.
Our CIO/VP Systems has no degree at all.
What do we have in common? A love of learning. An acquisitive nature that demands we expand our horizons constantly, at work and in our private lives.
And THAT is what university is for: learning. It is emphatically not good at anything else.
If you want to advance your career, learn about business. Run your own for a while; learn how hard it really is to manage all the petty details and still get something done. Then get a mentor, a good boss who'll teach you the ropes without letting you hang yourself from them.
If you have a *love* for what you do, and want to take the time to acquire some real insight into the miracle that computing is, then go to university. Give it all your time, so that when you're done you'll be better than a code-slinger.
If you invest just a few years of what should be a very long life, you just might come out of it in a position to make a real difference.
Incidentally, I didn't start my university career until I was twenty-five. Neither my age nor my training in an apparently unrelated discipline have ever stopped me from getting the jobs I wanted.
You say that you're salary was increasing by 50% a year since you started (?!)
... lemmee see ... (1+ 0.50) ^ 5 =~ 7.5 times your starting salary, which was either really low or you're making a boatload now.
That would give you
If you started at 14k you are now making 100k. Why bother with a degree?
Anyway, good luck to you man, and don't procrastinate. Start working to a degree now, finding time only gets harder. I'd look to a community college for an associates degree first work on it part time. From there maybe transfer somewhere and then stop working, and finish off the hard stuff in a year or 18 months.
www.avacal.com -- the home page of pete shaw
Only one acredited college I know of that has absolutely NO residency and supports credit by experience evaluation, CLEP, etc. is Thomas Edison State College, tesc.edu.
-- I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
Indeed the list of people with truncated education who nonetheless contributed great things - Wright Brothers - Michael Faraday - Jonas Salk - Einstein - Edison - HP - Lincoln - Even Bill Gates - Woz etc. . . underlines the point - as of course does the accomplishments by persons of color. Furthermore - since college continues to be available on an nonegalitarian basis - and serves primarily as a tool to protect the establishment - then any policy which includes education as an input will perpetuate the same inequalities.
In general principle - you should not do business with companies or people who would not - were the roles reversed - do business with you. If a company embraces a nonegalitarian principle - such as requiring or including as pertainent nonegalitarian education for promotion - that company is not observing this general principle - and should be shunned.
It is a great arrogance to believe that people cannot learn important lessons any place other than in colleges which clearly favor the establishment.
The reality however is that Companies are not called on the carpet for susbscribing to agents of discrimination such as colleges - and they are called on the carpet for "Due Dilligence" which in some cases means making sure the CFO has an MBA.
Thus until that changes - companies with anything to lose will prefer the insurance of "accredidation".
"Too Smart for College" is a euphimism for my parents didn't donate a wing at harvard, they didn't prepare me from the age of eight to be the Valedictorian - and by the time i realized what i wanted to do - it was too late to go back and work for free, solve old problems, listen to a Prof who last studied computers before dirt and compete with kids half my age.
The purpose of college is illustrated best by the Wizard of Oz. You have a brain - what you lack is the confidence to go out into the world and use it. If a paper with long words in latin does it for you - I'll sell you the paper. But this is a world built by people largely without "education." Education is merely the study of what "real" people have discoved with only curiosity.
Read life of James Watt AIK
You mention you want to go to grad school after you finish your undergrad degree. Chances are you will have to write the GRE CS subject test for your grad school application. Why not write it now, and see how you do? It might give you an approximate idea of how much computer science (as opposed to just programming) you have managed to pick up over the years.
i wonder if you know that you are a troll :)
to see someone quote that metallica lyric. or is it from somewhere else?
Give the CS guys at Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology (http://www.rose-hulman.edu) a call. I'm not saying that they'll definitely agree to a fast-track cirriculum or anything like that, but it's also not unheard of for students to test into the school as Juniors or seniors either. As I recall, they do their own in-house testing, so it wouldn't cost as much as tests given by some other places and whatnot.
:O)
If they do indeed let you fly through the school, you'll have a CS degree from a perty reputable school. At least that's what the family and whatnot told me when they begged me to go back
xScruffx
If you are looking to get a degree strictly for the purposes of advancement... and not to further your own education... consider majoring in something else.
You do not need a CS degree to go after a CS Masters or Ph. D. You simply need a bachelors of something. If you are lucky, you may find something that appeals to you as a side interest, or something that you can fast track through in the year or two you are looking for.
Also, if your degree is for the purpose of advancement in the working world, check with employers for what they are really looking for. When I was quizzing employers last year, none of them cared what kind of degree I had... just that I had one. For most employers a degree shows that you have determination, and know how to achieve long-term goals (not year long ones... sorry). Others want a degree to help round out their employees. A (small) few want the degree because you need the education (research based jobs) or they are short sighted.
did you forget about a little thing called discrete ...
because it was the time of year when my class was graduating and I felt I should have left college as well. being 2 courses short didn't bother me all that much; and more importantly, I had a JOB OFFER which I didn't want to turn down.
That's understandable... Like I said I was in a similar predicament... but I still would have felt a great sense of waste if I didn't find a way to finish, even if it had meant postponing the getting of a real job. I know that making the payoff of student loans isn't necessarily the best motivator for me to get done, but somehow I just felt obligated.
In case of fire, do not use elevator. Use water!
... the !)!@#* Foundation Exam !!!
Are you a knob gobbler? There's more to a computer science degree than computers.
I get so incredibly sick and tired of seeing/working with people who think that software engineering is 100% programming. Fundamentally it is about design. Design, design, design. Everyone I work with is required to have a degree, but neccessarily a computer science degree. Without a doubt, the absolute worst engineers I have worked with have all been non-CS degreed. They could not tell you the difference between a stack and a queue or 1st and 3rd Normal Form if their lives depended on it (and in embedded systems, they sometimes do). I have found that they may be able to hack out code pretty quick, but their designs are usually fundamentally flawed and absolutely unsupportable for long-term maintenance.
It is absolutely rediculous that the software industry accepts this and sometimes promotes this. It's no wonder that half of Silicon Valley went belly-up earlier this year and the rest continue to produce buggy crap.
Tell yourself "it's only a piece of paper" the next time you require surgery, or an architect to build/design your dream home.
I see that there are a lot of responses listing various benefits going to school for a real CS degree.
For me, I work with many who have degrees, and many who do not.
I find that the most relevent differences in ability to perform is that a CS grad. will usually be able to look deeper into a problem. For example, knowledge of physics, processor design, assembly, compilers, networking, and higher-level design issues arms a techie with tools that help them make better decisions as they work.
These tools make a BIG difference when it comes to designing systems, but also help when programming/debugging.
IMHO, designing complicated systems requires a lot of skills, and finding those skills in someone who has not made it through a CS degree is quite rare.
If you are only willing to devote a year, consider an intensive course of study in another language to allow you to work on more international projects. That will give you a valuable skill and experience to enhance your credentials when looking to advance your career.
You can have 20 years of programming experience in the languages used, 5 years DBA experience and a Ph.D. in physics--and every new employer will still start you out with the entry level crap writing *documentation* instead of code. It takes a big deadline emergency and 6-10 months of persistently insisting that yes, you *CAN* WRITE PROGRAMMES to be *allowed* to do so. And then every line of code you write is supervised by someone 15 years your junior who doesn't even know what the f**k a BNF grammar is. And who was still in *diapers* for crissake when you installed your first BSD system from 1600 BPI tapes on a VAX 11/750.
In fact, they're lucky if they have taken a high-school-level algebra or "pre" calculus course for the entire math requirement and/or an astronomy-for-poets course as their science requirement.
Hah! You're kidding, right? At my University most Science/Math types are lucky if they've taken any humanities course with a reasonable level of difficulty, and/or a "Writing for Complete Literary Dunces course for their dreaded 'H' requirements. At our school, this is called 'Writing 001', which consists of such revolutionary topics as the 5 paragraph essay. These same people then graduate from college and wonder why readers on slashdot complain that they can't differentiate between its and it's, and that their spelling and syntax is abysmal. You think that a lack of Math experience is a joke? What I find funny is that a huge percentage of college graduates in the sciences can't even write a proper high school essay, let alone an elegant dissertation.
Hi,
I am new to programming period. I have about a year and a half of experience, and I work with a few CS degree holders that I smoke. I've developed multitiered EJB systems, and written articles for JavaPro in my small amount of time. I have learned all my stuff from people like Fowler, Coad, Robert C. Martin, GoF. I got lucky because early on a mentor I worked with pointed me to the right books. Degrees mean shit when you fire up an empty text buffer, but I sure wish I had one because they testify to your dedication and disipline. It is unfortunate that curriculums haven't caught up to the realities of modern computing. My favorite part in the movie good will hunting is when he is perusing the psychologists book collection (played by williams) and he says, "They're the wrong fucking books." Most CS degree holders have wasted lots of time reading the wrong fucking books.
Via your sig you show as much respect for human beings who happen to posess vaginas as the Taliban did.
Quite off topic, I know, but I'm tired of idiots trying to justify their own sexist and dehumanizing actions by trying to set the Taliban up as a straw man to knock down.
Those who cover the bodies of women out of jealousy have just as much respect f or the people who happen to be those bodies as you who speak of women having "hot bodies."
I've been out of school for TWENTY YEARS!
I paid my way through school by WORKING. (My parents didn't pay a cent.)
And, to those unemployed snot-commers who asked, I'm doing quite well, thank you!
A degree from any accredited University demonstrates the roundedness of a student. It isn't just your ability to program (which you have already demonstrated), but you ability to analyze and handle all forms of problems. You are missing the point by trying to short-cut it. If all a CS degree was is the ability to program, it wouldn't have taken me eight years to get! :)
> Do they pay six figures for that these days?
You people are so full of shit! You say "degrees don't mean anything" but apparently you measure people with $$$!
I'm quite sure I'm doing better than you, if that matters. What's more important is that my DICK is bigger than yours, too.
"I think that I can easily complete a CS degree in 1 year"
Fuckin moron. Knowing how to program != CS Degree. There's more to CS than programming. I assume from all those books you've read you could quite readily jot out a proof of the "halting problem", or tell us in mathematical terms what kind of class the hardest NP problems comprise? Oh yeah, and I assume your already have at least 1st year college pure & applied math under your belt.
Having no friends at all - Worthless
MIT idiot, shaddup.
As long as we're all coming out of the closet here, I'm an eagle scout too! Look! CmdrTaco just became an eagle scout! We're all eagle scouts!
The arguments both for and against needing a degree in this thread are all valid. To succeed in this industry you need a fire in your belly for the technology, and a degree will show you are a well rounded individual able to learn and focus on the long term.
I have 20 years under my belt as a systems administrator, programmer, and developer, and I am finishing up a masters degree after getting my BS just 2 years ago. Why did I decide to pursue degrees so late in my career you might ask? It was to validate my vast experience to my clients and prove something to myself I guess.
When I was in my 20's and 30's I used many of the same arguments I have read here as to why I did not need a degree. I was a good programmer, well employed, and figured I could get by with just my experience. Things changed though as they often do. The kids leaving high school all had good computer skills. Could write code in their heads and most had taken some programming classes.
Competing against them got harder as there where more of them available to hire. My employment options started becoming very imited. The question employers and clients started asking where in line with how nice it was that I had all this experience but they were looking for someone with a formal education to manage the kids, not to just be a pool programmer.
So, I would suggest that perhaps a long view should be taken here. While in your 20's or 30's perhaps you should look at getting your degree in a leisurely manner, enjoying the trip as you learn things about our industry from a very different perspective, a perspective of a science rather than simply a vocation. When you are 45 you might discover it gives you an edge over the competition who by that time might all have masters degrees.
Sonam Genphel
If this is not
1) true
2) funny
I don't know what is.
In Australia and the UK (at least) there is the concept of a Master of Science which is a degree program (usually over 1 year full time or two years part time) that provides people with a degree in something a certification in Science (and predominantly Computer Science in my experience). I know for a fact that MSc courses in Oz will provide admission to computer professionals who do not have an undergraduate degree, but I am not sure how much professional experience is required, I was tutoring them not admitting them :-). I cannot comment for sure on whether the UK does the same wrt to non undergraduates.
:-) would be an excellent idea. It would meet your goal of achieving the degree in one year and it might even be fun
Often these degrees are full fee paying (this matters in the UK and Oz since most tertiary education does not have the same idea of tuition fees as the US).
I can only endorse tose who present he dea that a degre ecourse is more than checking off the boxes on a "I can work in this industry" checklist. If you can afford it I would think that a year off to do such a program (even overseas
"The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
You are free to reply to this (note: I'm not the orginal AC). And by the way, I don't see how you are standing behind your views more than I do when you are not using your real name anyhow. Or, as another AC remarked, did your mother by any chance name you CoreDump'?
Write free software.
If you're as good as you say, people will start using your application, popularity will grow, and you'll be able to tag it on your resume. What's worth more: finding a potential employer who is using (or has heard of) your software, or some piece of paper that says you know the bare minimum that thousands of other people already know?
The point of a degree is to prove you know the bare, basic essentials...screw that, go above and beyond. Prove you are damn good, under the scrutiny of the best.
If these stats on his salary are true, this guy has to be making a fairly pretty penny. All he seems to want the degree for is for "credentials".
If I were him and hauling in that cash (and enjoying the work), I'd sit tight. Ten years of work coupled with a smart investment strategy and relatively frugal lifestyle can put one well beyond the pall of poverty, if not exactly rolling in wealth.
If things don't work out for some reason and he finds himself slipping without a degree or unsatisfied intellectually -- THAT's the time to return to school.
It would be nice if there were places where one could take up advanced programming or computer science studies, not as job or career move, but as a mental or spiritual exercise. The goals of such studies would include attainment of uber-geek-dom, but the point of such an achievment would be the transcending of things we think are limitations, rather than instant commercial success.
----------
Manifesto for the Peoples of the Third Millennium
Mills College has an intense computer science certificate program for people who already have a bachelor's degree in another field. See http://www.mills.edu/PUBS/CAT_GR/nhc.gr.html and http://ics.mills.edu. Students from the program have been admitted to computer science PhD programs at MIT, Univ. of Washington, Univ. of Virginia, etc.
I am currently the director of the program and would be happy to answer any questions.
If you are truely good at both the technological and people factors, then why do you want to get a degree? Perhaps the company you are currently working for has an ancient policy requiring degrees for certain positions, but you KNOW there's a way around that.
If not, go to another company, or start your own.
Starting your own is the best bet in the long run, and you know it - that way you don't sit there whining about being stuck at the bottom while that CEO-guy rakes in the bucks. In the case of running a company, YOU will be that CEO-guy.
So don't bullshit yourself, and don't feed the status quo mentality. Push yourself, not the piece of paper.
Actually, I'm NOT kidding. You raise a valid point about the ability of many college graduates to write critically -- or even acceptably. However, in my experience working with recent college graduates, many of those with humanities degrees have problems writing basic correspondence as well. I think that too often, the "critical thinking" part of the college education is the part that gets skipped.
BTW -- your point about "its" and "it's" is quite valid. Have you read a newspaper or magazine recently? I don't think they're edited by scientists and engineers, however. I fear that we're witnessing another one of those evolutionary corruptions of the English language. Also, read a while and tell me what percentage of the uses of the word, "comprise," are correct. Oh well. Some things cannot be helped.
Guns don't kill people -- people kill people.
But the guns seem to help a bit. (apologies to Eddie Izzard)
anymore than Bush's views on stem-cell research and abortion are representative of all Americans.
You say that like people who share his views should be second class citizens or something. Isn't there any room for disagreement on these somewhat ambiguous issues? Or should everyone who cringes at the thought of killing an unborn child be thrown out of the country?
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
The tone of your query clearly reveals your unconscionable hubris in pursuing higher education to its logical fruition. I myself never finished my CS Degree, but that's because I already had a BS degree, and decided to formalize my Computer Science base with enough theory to truly appreciate the field itself.
The purpose of higher education, in theory, is to expose oneself to the thoughts and ideas of other great thinkers, in the hope that by doing so one can become a "great" thinker as well.
Although I take much offense with the ethnocentric and ethnoimperialist (I suppose my own word) educational system of the West, I still believe that such a system has a great deal to offer. It's often interesting to me that the West's consumption with its own greatness is somewhat blinding. They seem to have forgotten that it was the East that brought mathematics and science to the ignorant West, including of course the bases for the study of Computer Science itself.
If I were in your position, pursuing another major may be your best bet, as others have suggested.
If you are going to go on to a Masters anyway why not start out closer to the goal?
Enter at the Graduate Certificate level. Atriculate to the Graduate Diploma. And top it off with the Masters.
It may not be the fast track of 1 year you are looking for, but it may take as little as 3 years to attain a complete Masters.
But I tell you what, my professor really sucked...
It's not the paper; it's the wealth of information you get on your way to earning the paper.
Like everything in life, it's what you make of the experience that counts. Others have already posted their experiences regarding individuals without degrees who have been successful and others with degrees who were not. The fact that someone can attend 3 or 4 years of classes, obtain a piece of paper, and still not have learned how to learn, or learned how to problem solve, is a testament to the extreme stupidity many people exhibit.
University provides a wonderful environment where you may taste and experience many ideas you would otherwise find it difficult to become exposed to. If you embrace the experience and take away from it everything it offers, you and your future employers benefit greatly. If you are there soley to obtain a piece of paper in order to secure employment; you have wasted your time and money, and your future employer will end up with yet another bump on a log.
I completed 4 degree programs (1 Master lvl, 2 Bachelor lvl and 1 Associate lvl) in 11 months. Did it through a combination of testing a few seminars and a lot of hard work. How? Took advantage of the system. Find a school that readily accepts credits, gives credit for experience etc. (BYU,Excelsior,Strayer etc) Open an AAS program. Bank credits towards that degree without completing it. Test test test. Snag on line courses from everyplace and test out. I took two and sometimes three semester finals a week. Shuffle credits into your bank. Keep tabs and when you hit about 250 or go school/degree shopping again. Close out your AAS last. Does it help when you want a promotion or go job hunting? YES and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I just lost a CTO position because I don't have a PhD. Guess what I'll be working on after the holidays.
Btw, have you stopped beating your wife yet?
---
Segmentation Fault ( core dumped )
Or Hemos...
Or Cowboy Neal, oh wait, just proved myself wrong there... damn!
---
Segmentation Fault ( core dumped )
Magius_AR
Except that we know who Jeff Bates and Rob Malda are.
___
The ends are ape-chosen, only the means are man's. -- Aldous Huxley
Only problem is the morinic students i go there with. Some of them cant even install NT 4.0 correctly and i graduate in 6 mo. I have a feeling thet they are going to make my degree totally useless. Training for my MCSE as a backup plan.
But they are overrated as most institutions will only give you the basics. I go to ITT tech and about 25% of the class still cant install NT 4.0 workstation correctly. These same people are going to graduate and diminish my degree. So i am forced to earn my MCSE as well to prove I know what i am doing. Just seems to me that each class should have to pass a physical competency test to pass a class. IE installing configuring and locking down security on a workstation/server to pass a given class.
It's been said in bits and pieces, but to sum up and state my full opinion:
::Colz Grigor
Take the time to go back to school. If you've been making an average salary increase of 50% each year, you should have had the sense to save a good portion of it. Use that savings to go back and get a degree.
The degree is for two things. First and foremost, it's for rounding. You know CS, but can you write a decent memo? Maybe a few lit classes will help there. And what about product life cycles? Some marketing classes will help. Consulting with a multinational firm, you'll make better decisions with forex knowledge and maybe picking up a second language (non CS) will help, too.
Second, part of university for me was learning to deal with bureaucrats in the most expeditious way. You could probably get that by long-term consulting for a development contractor, though.
You may never be a better programmer, but you're not saying you want to. People who want to program all their lives do not need to go to university. You want to advance beyond programming into management and decision-making. To do that best, you need the breadth that a real university will give you. And you can ace all the CS classes to boost your GPA, while you're at it.
--
CS170? Gimme a break yeah they teach Basic, but you just find a friend who is a CS major and get him/her to help ya. Calc 135 and Calc 136? What a joke. That was high school level Calculus. Lastly, 95% of CS majors at Rutgers cheat. Fall 01 CS 416, they found some students asking for help on rentacoder.com. Pathetic.
true that. i have no regrets.