If not, they're still under the jurisdiction. Scratch that, under the DMCA they're still liable for any 'ip violation' that their product 'enables' in countries that follow the DMCA (such as the US).
Of course, then, some stupid company started bundling whatever application it wanted to the default operating system installation and now it does not matter what OS you install you will always need at least 2000 MB for the basic installation... Fortunately you can buy hard drives at wal-mart that come with a minimum of 40000 MB, and some even go as high as 120000 MB for a little over $150.
I bet you ten to one that if you go to an actual computer store, you can even buy ones that have 320000 MB of space or more.
interesting, how technology has evolved uh? For both hardware and software.
It would be a new twist on the old idea of selective leaks. It certainly would be an effective way to convince the public (and the market?) that microsoft is sensitive to and accomadating of internel disagreements. This might also be just the "rallying cry" that Gates and Ballmer need to cut loose thousands of employees too.
If you look at it in terms of growth, I think your perspective changes quite a bit. Linux has no finanical growth to speak of (unless you count the stocks of mandriva and redhat, which would be misleading for obvious reasons), and google is very much in the early stages of being public, so all that they can do is grow.
But looking at Apple, I think it's quite likely that MS would like to be able to have their increase in profits (and, I assume, stock value) instead of being flatline in terms of financial growth goes.
Yes, MS makes more in profits than all three combined; but how much has the stock value grown reletive to how much Apple's has? (I don't know the answer to this either, but I'm willing to bet that Apple has increased in value, as opposed to remaining flat).
There's no reason, however, that the hotel couldn't have a strip like that behind the counter and make it a routine part of check-out for the clerk to use it.
The interface and commands are nothing like what people are used to today.
This is very true, but it begs the question: why bother?
Modern Unixes have a vareity of modern editors with UIs designed along modern UI standards. Even NetBSD has abiword available for it, and Open Office has been ported to most free unixes. If you want an IDE, there are several free ones (ajunta and kdevelop come to mind) which are available and are based on modern design theory so you can go straight to coding instead of learing obscure ^@S^X^U^{^H type commands.
There's some value to knowing vi (I know far more than I'd like to be honest); but that's really only needed for single-user emergencies: if you have access to a GUI, you have access to a better editor (kedit, abiword, etc).
Spoken like someone who has never had to make a pitch to people outside of their own particular demographic.
We're talking about marketing this to a mainstream (non-geek) audience; it's a different ball-game with different rules.
By the way, your firefox comparison is a wholly unrealistic reach. Gimp has definate, unqestionable negative meanings in it's common usage (here in america at least). That's been covered to death in this conversation already.
And yes, people do have the reasonable right to not be offended, particularly when they are being asked to give up something that they use (photoshop) in favor of something which they are unsure of (gimp).
The bad attitude works when it's you and your buds on IRC; but when you get out into the larger world you have to deal with other attiudes and sensibilities.
OSS has two very clear choices:
1)Remain in its' elitist niche' where they can get away with offensive names for their products and yelling "RTFM n00b" on IRC all day
2)Reach out to the larger, mainstream product where people are not going to find derogatory program names to be 'cute' or 'clever'; find out what their reasoning is and appeal to them on their terms.
This involves more than regexs; this involves understanding the mindset of the people you are reaching out to, it involves understanding what makes the 'suit' or the 'phb' tick and being willing to reach out to them.
To answer your question before you ask it; why should you -when you have something you're giving away for free- reach out to them? They have no reason to reach out to you. They already have something that works (photoshop), which is a known commodity with a solid reputation, and they know they can get support (from adobe) for it.
Again, there's no reason for the OSS crowd to leave IRC; but if they choose to, an understanding of the larger world and how people think is going to be crucial.
And that includes understanding how a non-OSS manager is going to react when faced with the idea of adopting The CRIPPLE ^w GIMP.
If the government are paying money for free software, they're even more stupid than I ever imagined. No, it's a question of selling government and private agencies on free software (which they can get for free) as opposed to expensive proprietary software (which they spend $ on).
The idea is that the money being spent on photoshop, etc is money that could be saved if the GIMP wasn't named something guarenteed to raise the hackles of most people who work in the social services field.
I don't think that's the real issue; after all, I'm sure you can probably find bug reports older than march in the firefox/mozilla code. The real issue, as has been pointed out, is that because of how closely IE is tied into the OS (unlike firefox), any bug in IE becomes a security risk.
Your second point is a strawman argument; I was attacked for flaming, and I pointed out that those I was flaming were more than capable of holding their own. That's the beginning and the end of the point I was making with that statement.
As far as the point I was making about the name of the GIMP, this poster has made my point clearer than I have been able to.
Read it, and consider it; or ignore it and then wonder why OSS isn't more widely adopted by computer users outside of the geek/techie niche.
You're missing the point; the point is that because of the problem, the corporate and non-profit world will ignore this part of Free Software.
Pointing out a problem is not the same as bitching; I like the software, it would be great if I was able to introduce it to people I know in the corporate and therapeutic communities.
But because of the title that is simply not possible.
That is a problem; it's not a threat to the project (which has been going on for ten years now); but it is a valid concern when the subject of larger adoption comes up.
What taxpayer money? The money being spent by agencies who are looking for software to use to teach mentally impaired people computer skills
The money being spent by various non-profits looking for software to use in their programs.
There's a larger world than 'edgy' geeks raging against the 'PC' world on thier IRC channels; it's the corporate and non-profit world; it's also a part of reality; but you'd have to leave/. and IRC to be a part of it.
That's a pretty good idea for implementing the GIMP; I'm not sure that would help when it comes to trying to sell it to the suits? But if nothing else, it would be helpful for when someone installs it for an agency.
as far as your idea goes; why not have the script change the name to wilbur (the name of the mascot)? it's not an anagram, but it's still associated with the program.
Exactly. If being inoffensive is worth $600 per seat, that's exactly what they should do.
and it's a needless waste, all over the insistence on sticking to a rather childish name.
Kinda funny how you are indiscriminatly flaming off in all directions, making the exact same kind of offensive stereotypes as you claim to be protesting.
Except that I'm directly talking to the people who I am flaming, and those people are more than capable of defending themselves.
It really undermines your argument. The counter argument boils down to either "but but but it means other stuff too" which I've addressed, or "but but but we wanna call it something offensive" wich -which valid- ignores the fact that it is a choice which limits adoption.
And ignores the fact that that limit is arbitary and unnecessary.
That doesn't take away from my point because, as I've already pointed out; those other meanings are unlikely to occur to the decision maker that you are making the pitch to.
When you are dealing with corporations and with organisations who deal with a large variety of people in the public, things like this matter. Even if they know that it's the GNU Image Manipulation Program, they are not going to be percieved as approving making fun of handicapped people.
Also, there's the matter of professionalism. The decision makers are going to look at the fact that the writers were juvenile enough to call the program THE GIMP (instead of choosing a better acronym) they must also be juvenile enough to be shoddy writers and are probably flakey when it comes to support requests.
and thinking this, they'll remember adobe; and go right straight to them.
Again, this is all fine and well; but it's a needless waste.
such a witty bon mot! both the GIMP developers and the gimps! sir, your talents are truly wasted here on/.
Fucktard; have you ever worked with people who have any kind of mental illness or retardation? I have, and they are fully capable of working in the community and leading 'normal' lives, complete with fulling jobs and hobbies (maybe even playing with photoshop, who knows?)
But hey, don't let reality get in the way of your dismissive bon mots. Fire away, by all means.
It is certainly their right, but when it needlessly estranges groups and organisations (who are often spending tax dollars to rehabilitate people) then it is a needless
and expensive
waste.
You have the right to name your project in an offensive manner, and those people who have a larger view of interpersonal relationships and politics than "omg they want to keep me from saying stuffs oh noes" have a right to go "ok, well, I don't know what a 'gimp' is; but if the writers are such assholes as to insult handicapped people, maybe we should spend our funds on photoshop instead".
But hey, you and your pals get to sit on IRC and feel all l33t 'cos you use THE GIMP, amirite?
Number one, the term, regardless of permanence, is one which puts down and degrades a person or group of persons for a physical infirmity. That is the common meaning, that is the association which will be on the mind of any decision makers who are told about this free photo-shop like program called THE CRIPPLE^W GIMP.
Secondly, the program is commonly referred to by it's initials, and it is those initials which is what it will be judged by ("the cripple? WTF?")
Third, it is this unwillingness to empathise and understand the point of view of the mainstream world and corporate/government users which is what will keep Free Software in the fringes, which means that collary issues (DRM, DMCA) are also kept to the side as well.
Lastly, everyone is so caught up in seeing this as an attack on some bizarre free speech issue that they are ignoring the fact that they are arguing for a name which actively and needlessly is insulting.
I mean, fine, have your GIMP, use it with your RETARD gui on your NIGGER OS; but don't be surprised when people object to the name and decide to use closed-source applications which do not feel an adolescent need to "stick it to the man" by choosing application names which are inherently offensive.
Slashdot Mirror
5) Pressure the major internet hubs to "cut off" Vanuatu from being accessible inside of america
6) Get every other country we have economic ties to do the same
7) ???
8) RIAA profits!
If not, they're still under the jurisdiction. Scratch that, under the DMCA they're still liable for any 'ip violation' that their product 'enables' in countries that follow the DMCA (such as the US).
Of course, then, some stupid company started bundling whatever application it wanted to the default operating system installation and now it does not matter what OS you install you will always need at least 2000 MB for the basic installation...
Fortunately you can buy hard drives at wal-mart that come with a minimum of 40000 MB, and some even go as high as 120000 MB for a little over $150.
I bet you ten to one that if you go to an actual computer store, you can even buy ones that have 320000 MB of space or more.
interesting, how technology has evolved uh?
For both hardware and software.
[ Reply to This ]
Just did.
Indeed; shame that the XFree86 project learned that just a little too late.
It would be a new twist on the old idea of selective leaks. It certainly would be an effective way to convince the public (and the market?) that microsoft is sensitive to and accomadating of internel disagreements. This might also be just the "rallying cry" that Gates and Ballmer need to cut loose thousands of employees too.
If you look at it in terms of growth, I think your perspective changes quite a bit. Linux has no finanical growth to speak of (unless you count the stocks of mandriva and redhat, which would be misleading for obvious reasons), and google is very much in the early stages of being public, so all that they can do is grow.
But looking at Apple, I think it's quite likely that MS would like to be able to have their increase in profits (and, I assume, stock value) instead of being flatline in terms of financial growth goes.
Yes, MS makes more in profits than all three combined; but how much has the stock value grown reletive to how much Apple's has? (I don't know the answer to this either, but I'm willing to bet that Apple has increased in value, as opposed to remaining flat).
There's no reason, however, that the hotel couldn't have a strip like that behind the counter and make it a routine part of check-out for the clerk to use it.
If I don't get at least one 'pop-up' when visiting a site I find here, there's a good chance I'll never return
Yahoo mail wasn't the only reason I decided to start using flashblock; but it was definately half of the reason.
The interface and commands are nothing like what people are used to today.
This is very true, but it begs the question: why bother?
Modern Unixes have a vareity of modern editors with UIs designed along modern UI standards. Even NetBSD has abiword available for it, and Open Office has been ported to most free unixes. If you want an IDE, there are several free ones (ajunta and kdevelop come to mind) which are available and are based on modern design theory so you can go straight to coding instead of learing obscure ^@S^X^U^{^H type commands.
There's some value to knowing vi (I know far more than I'd like to be honest); but that's really only needed for single-user emergencies: if you have access to a GUI, you have access to a better editor (kedit, abiword, etc).
why not use it?
The worst thing about it is that over half of the people who do are either cranks or trolls.
"It's like Wikipedia on crack, heroin, and meth all at once."
Hell, I'm sold! Where do I sign up?
Spoken like someone who has never had to make a pitch to people outside of their own particular demographic.
We're talking about marketing this to a mainstream (non-geek) audience; it's a different ball-game with different rules.
By the way, your firefox comparison is a wholly unrealistic reach. Gimp has definate, unqestionable negative meanings in it's common usage (here in america at least). That's been covered to death in this conversation already.
And yes, people do have the reasonable right to not be offended, particularly when they are being asked to give up something that they use (photoshop) in favor of something which they are unsure of (gimp).
The bad attitude works when it's you and your buds on IRC; but when you get out into the larger world you have to deal with other attiudes and sensibilities.
OSS has two very clear choices:
1)Remain in its' elitist niche' where they can get away with offensive names for their products and yelling "RTFM n00b" on IRC all day
2)Reach out to the larger, mainstream product where people are not going to find derogatory program names to be 'cute' or 'clever'; find out what their reasoning is and appeal to them on their terms.
This involves more than regexs; this involves understanding the mindset of the people you are reaching out to, it involves understanding what makes the 'suit' or the 'phb' tick and being willing to reach out to them.
To answer your question before you ask it; why should you -when you have something you're giving away for free- reach out to them? They have no reason to reach out to you. They already have something that works (photoshop), which is a known commodity with a solid reputation, and they know they can get support (from adobe) for it.
Again, there's no reason for the OSS crowd to leave IRC; but if they choose to, an understanding of the larger world and how people think is going to be crucial.
And that includes understanding how a non-OSS manager is going to react when faced with the idea of adopting The CRIPPLE ^w GIMP.
If the government are paying money for free software, they're even more stupid than I ever imagined.
No, it's a question of selling government and private agencies on free software (which they can get for free) as opposed to expensive proprietary software (which they spend $ on).
The idea is that the money being spent on photoshop, etc is money that could be saved if the GIMP wasn't named something guarenteed to raise the hackles of most people who work in the social services field.
I don't think that's the real issue; after all, I'm sure you can probably find bug reports older than march in the firefox/mozilla code. The real issue, as has been pointed out, is that because of how closely IE is tied into the OS (unlike firefox), any bug in IE becomes a security risk.
Your second point is a strawman argument; I was attacked for flaming, and I pointed out that those I was flaming were more than capable of holding their own. That's the beginning and the end of the point I was making with that statement.
As far as the point I was making about the name of the GIMP, this poster has made my point clearer than I have been able to.
Read it, and consider it; or ignore it and then wonder why OSS isn't more widely adopted by computer users outside of the geek/techie niche.
You're missing the point; the point is that because of the problem, the corporate and non-profit world will ignore this part of Free Software.
Pointing out a problem is not the same as bitching; I like the software, it would be great if I was able to introduce it to people I know in the corporate and therapeutic communities.
But because of the title that is simply not possible.
That is a problem; it's not a threat to the project (which has been going on for ten years now); but it is a valid concern when the subject of larger adoption comes up.
What taxpayer money?
/. and IRC to be a part of it.
The money being spent by agencies who are looking for software to use to teach mentally impaired people computer skills
The money being spent by various non-profits looking for software to use in their programs.
There's a larger world than 'edgy' geeks raging against the 'PC' world on thier IRC channels; it's the corporate and non-profit world; it's also a part of reality; but you'd have to leave
That's a pretty good idea for implementing the GIMP; I'm not sure that would help when it comes to trying to sell it to the suits? But if nothing else, it would be helpful for when someone installs it for an agency.
as far as your idea goes; why not have the script change the name to wilbur (the name of the mascot)? it's not an anagram, but it's still associated with the program.
Exactly. If being inoffensive is worth $600 per seat, that's exactly what they should do.
and it's a needless waste, all over the insistence on sticking to a rather childish name.
Kinda funny how you are indiscriminatly flaming off in all directions, making the exact same kind of offensive stereotypes as you claim to be protesting.
Except that I'm directly talking to the people who I am flaming, and those people are more than capable of defending themselves.
It really undermines your argument.
The counter argument boils down to either "but but but it means other stuff too" which I've addressed, or "but but but we wanna call it something offensive" wich -which valid- ignores the fact that it is a choice which limits adoption.
And ignores the fact that that limit is arbitary and unnecessary.
That doesn't take away from my point because, as I've already pointed out; those other meanings are unlikely to occur to the decision maker that you are making the pitch to.
When you are dealing with corporations and with organisations who deal with a large variety of people in the public, things like this matter. Even if they know that it's the GNU Image Manipulation Program, they are not going to be percieved as approving making fun of handicapped people.
Also, there's the matter of professionalism. The decision makers are going to look at the fact that the writers were juvenile enough to call the program THE GIMP (instead of choosing a better acronym) they must also be juvenile enough to be shoddy writers and are probably flakey when it comes to support requests.
and thinking this, they'll remember adobe; and go right straight to them.
Again, this is all fine and well; but it's a needless waste.
such a witty bon mot! both the GIMP developers and the gimps! sir, your talents are truly wasted here on /.
Fucktard; have you ever worked with people who have any kind of mental illness or retardation? I have, and they are fully capable of working in the community and leading 'normal' lives, complete with fulling jobs and hobbies (maybe even playing with photoshop, who knows?)
But hey, don't let reality get in the way of your dismissive bon mots. Fire away, by all means.
It is certainly their right, but when it needlessly estranges groups and organisations (who are often spending tax dollars to rehabilitate people) then it is a needless
and expensive
waste.
You have the right to name your project in an offensive manner, and those people who have a larger view of interpersonal relationships and politics than "omg they want to keep me from saying stuffs oh noes" have a right to go "ok, well, I don't know what a 'gimp' is; but if the writers are such assholes as to insult handicapped people, maybe we should spend our funds on photoshop instead".
But hey, you and your pals get to sit on IRC and feel all l33t 'cos you use THE GIMP, amirite?
No, it is not at all rediculous, on two points:
Number one, the term, regardless of permanence, is one which puts down and degrades a person or group of persons for a physical infirmity. That is the common meaning, that is the association which will be on the mind of any decision makers who are told about this free photo-shop like program called THE CRIPPLE^W GIMP.
Secondly, the program is commonly referred to by it's initials, and it is those initials which is what it will be judged by ("the cripple? WTF?")
Third, it is this unwillingness to empathise and understand the point of view of the mainstream world and corporate/government users which is what will keep Free Software in the fringes, which means that collary issues (DRM, DMCA) are also kept to the side as well.
Lastly, everyone is so caught up in seeing this as an attack on some bizarre free speech issue that they are ignoring the fact that they are arguing for a name which actively and needlessly is insulting.
I mean, fine, have your GIMP, use it with your RETARD gui on your NIGGER OS; but don't be surprised when people object to the name and decide to use closed-source applications which do not feel an adolescent need to "stick it to the man" by choosing application names which are inherently offensive.