Perl's OO implementation is just fine. Read Conway's _Object Oriented Perl_ for the real deal on the subject. Python is not easier for "people who write web pages". At least, I haven't seen at data that supports that. Programming is hard. Web page design is a different animal.
I do wish Pythoners had more confidence in their language. Why all the cheap shots at Perl? Python has been designed with OO from the ground up. It definitely shows. Python has a great application called Zope that highly recommends the language. I like Perl OO. I do not like nor do I need a compile/interpreter to tell me how to code. I have a brain for that.
Maybe (eek) Microsoft does have the right answer in that maybe browsers need to have a "scripting" interface which is language neutral. That way, you can use your tool without impacting my ability to use mine.
I'd rather see more python/Perl integration. Both are great tools. Both are worth a look.
VMware has been a boon to me. Not only can I run win98 (slowly), but I get to experiment with FreeBSD 3.1 and Solaris 2.6. I had trouble installing BOTH of these OS's on naked hardware. It's nice to finally get a chance to use them.
Of course, OS/2 didn't like vmware AT ALL. I tried to get win3.1 loaded, but I lost the last disk!! Probably not that big a deal.
I will be able to try out other linux distro's as well. VMware is a great tool. Now, I need more HD space...
While it is true that you can have an unrewarding job programming in Linux, I disagree profoundly that techies don't fixate on their OS. Consider your dwelling. State and federal regulations guarentee you'll have a bathroom, a refridgerator and stove, but it is the *details* of your domicile that make you love or hate it.
It would be nice to be OS agnostic. I am not. I've been burned by M$ too many times. I'd rather work with technologies driven by coders than marketers. Of course, you may enjoy updating your Office every two years and applying service packs to beat the band.
For me, it is a requirement that I be kept as far away from MICROS~1 as possible.
I fear you are correct. The sanity-blasting truth of these multi-tendriled fascist space monsters is known to me all too dearly. At certain ghoulish times of the year, my sleep is haunted by the dreams of slime covered, cyclopean columns which mark out a dead alien city. Shadowy figures shuffle along its centuried streets. How many aeons have past since those enormous walls were formed I dare not ponder. Even in the bright light of day, I fear I hear the horrible clicking of their hellish maws at the very limit of perception.
A first stike? I think the war is lost before the first volley of arms. I will no more be reading Slashdot because I now do what must be done. I go to the sea the follow the ancient call of our nightmare God.
Yes, there are school names that would NEVER have made it through test marketing today. I have have to say that an all-girl school named Beaver sounds the setup to a marginal joke. Imagine the testimonials:
"My life before Beaver was terrible. I was in a dead end job, I looked and smelled terrible and I was always irratable. But then, I found Beaver. Sure, there were a lot of sleepless nights, but it was worth it!"
As Cringley reported, Microsoft's entry into the streaming media market is causing waves. There's no doubt in my mind that if M$ wasn't trying to 0wn this market, that Real Networks would continue to ignore Linux.
I sometimes wonder if Linux will ever be seen by business as something other than a loss leader. Why do only floundering companies come to Linux? Why can't Linux attract mainstream developers on the strength its userbase and programming API?
Given the rise of such quirky languages like Perl and Python, which both use weaker typing, automatically garbage collect and provide associative arrays, would you add or remove any features from C++? Would you provide for more robust string handling?
How long will it take for this thread to dissolve into mindless zealotry? I suggest 10 posts max.
In the article, the author notes that: "As much as I admire Perl, I would never recommend it to a beginner". I'm just not certain this is valid. Yes, Perl is a very complex language, but its high level abstractions allow the student to focus on the way algorithms work without getting too boggled by implementation. Python also allows for these while providing a "cleaner" OO interface.
Please, lets use these two great OSS tools in peace and harmony. There is rivalry here simply because the languages are more similar than not.
In this age of internet start-ups, you may well be correct. Software engineering, the practice of carefully and delibrately constructing the best possible system, could be dead. That doesn't mean that it should be.
Creating a program or an application that accomplishes its tasks, can be modified readily by other coders and is scalable/portable to other architectures is difficult. Just "coding more" belies the fundamental complexity of development.
One can learn a lot by reading. Many software tasks have been encountered before. Instead of wasting time on coding, try finding the solution in a book or a software library. Reinventing the wheel is wasteful.
Frankly, coding is boring. Designing systems is where the beauty of "programming" lies.
Very very sad. You gotta think there are Redmonders (the sane ones) who are CRINGING at this statement. M$ needs a healthy shot of reality. Believing your own hype is deadly.
You know, there's probably a lesson in there for OSS too.:-)
Nelson says the current problem, which has attracted all the recent media attention is, in fact, not new. The high-tech industry has known since August 1998, he said, that Solaris and Linux systems were vulnerable to having foreign, unwanted code placed on them by outsiders.
DoS are NOT new. They are not even a nineties event. Perhaps distributed attacks are considered new, but the Internet Worm of the late 80's, infesting and attacking new machines virally, certains falls under this rubric.
*nix machines *can* be vulnerable to "unwanted code". Any machine with network services *can* be vulernable. Remember the melissa virus? Spread via email. Last I checked, Exchange didn't bounce that "unwanted code" without a scanner. Sheesh. FUD.
In addition, the source code, that provides outsiders with the ability to insert this code and attack Solaris and Linux systems, has been posted on the Internet for some time, making it easy accessible by anyone.
I assume the author is referring to places like rootshell.com which posts exploits. Rootkit is nothing new. There are rootkits for all systems. Even NT.
Linux systems in use, and that the current spate of attacks takes advantage of an inherent vulnerability in these systems; Windows- based systems are not subject to this problem.
Wrong. Windows systems *are* just as vulnerable to being hi-jacked. This is crazy talk. Now, the Mac Classic I use as a bookend isn't at risk to be 0wned. Or even b0ught...
The question that remains for me is whether this reporter was Fooled, Uninformed or Dumb?
Articles like this only serve to irrate. They neither inform nor persuade.
You have experienced the full fury of slashdot readership rage, and yet continue to post thoughtful and expressive articles. We are moving into a world of more online forums, so how do you feel these dialogs ought to be handled in this environment? How do you think they *will* be handled?
There are lots of ways to use Perl effectively to build and maintain sites. I used modules and mop_perl for my Aliens, Aliens, Aliens site. Most of the functionality comes from a single module which is used by various scripts which access particular tables.
However, if I had to build it again, I would have gone with HTML::Mason, which is a very powerful embedded perl system, like PHP, Cold Fusion, ASP, Zope, etc. It is open source and very nice if you already know Perl. If you don't, wouldn't Cold Fusion be the easiest embedded HTML language to use? Consider that Allaire is close to release CF for Linux. 8-)
In the end, any system which helps you the programmer separate form from functionality is the tool to use. The days of hard coding perl scripts to generate HTML are over, I hope.
Games and porn drive hardware and software makers to make "better stuff". I look forward to the day I can reformat my win95 (which is used for games), because all the best games will be on Linux.
I have to hand it ALL the slashdot gang for creating something truly unique: a community around a website. Sure, we've used BBSes and usenet, but I don't believe anyone has so successfully built a community using the web. Huzzah and kudos!
There's *a lot* of bitching here about the slow release of the next slashdot tarball. That's really unfortunate. Rob has already posted some code. You are welcome to fork the project.
Slashdot inspired me to rewrite and rework my tired old website into a weblog. Oddly enough, it too uses mysql and mod_perl. There is a great deal of customization that goes into creating your own "look and feel". Both slashdot and my code were designed to solve our *particular* problems. Aside from being examples of Perl code, you might be better served by looking a general web UI solutions that separate form from functionality. Like Zope or Mason. These are far better places to start than to rework code that was never designed to meet general problems.
Although I have GPL my code and even gotten a few people to use it, I realize that while what I have works for me, it's a better community service to show folks the Better Way. But hell, hack whatever you'd like (naked).:-)
If I were a manager, I don't think I'd find Dilbert's portrail of the PHB to be funny at all. The pressures of management and the lack of support for middle managers are breath takingly horrendous. Your underlings hate you. Your boss hates you. It can be a really soul crushing experience.
Which is why it makes for GREAT comedy. When people fail to laugh at thier own situation, life is a long series of miseries. For people learning computers (and we were ALL here at one time), there is a lot of humor in one's first attempts to chain the bit beast. "Where's the 'any' key?" "Should I hit the 'Ok' button?"
Do teachers make fun of students? Well, not to the student's face, but I've had the confidence of my teachers. You want to talk about vicious? Are you looking for Komedy?
The real issue is that the line between humor and cruelty is periliously thin. I feel that we are all brave enough to explore humor even though we may become casualities ourselves.
Slashdot Mirror
Perl's OO implementation is just fine. Read Conway's _Object Oriented Perl_ for the real deal on the subject. Python is not easier for "people who write web pages". At least, I haven't seen at data that supports that. Programming is hard. Web page design is a different animal.
I do wish Pythoners had more confidence in their language. Why all the cheap shots at Perl? Python has been designed with OO from the ground up. It definitely shows. Python has a great application called Zope that highly recommends the language.
I like Perl OO. I do not like nor do I need a compile/interpreter to tell me how to code. I have a brain for that.
Maybe (eek) Microsoft does have the right answer in that maybe browsers need to have a "scripting" interface which is language neutral. That way, you can use your tool without impacting my ability to use mine.
I'd rather see more python/Perl integration. Both are great tools. Both are worth a look.
VMware has been a boon to me. Not only can I run win98 (slowly), but I get to experiment with FreeBSD 3.1 and Solaris 2.6. I had trouble installing BOTH of these OS's on naked hardware. It's nice to finally get a chance to use them.
Of course, OS/2 didn't like vmware AT ALL. I tried to get win3.1 loaded, but I lost the last disk!! Probably not that big a deal.
I will be able to try out other linux distro's as well. VMware is a great tool. Now, I need more HD space...
While it is true that you can have an unrewarding job programming in Linux, I disagree profoundly that techies don't fixate on their OS. Consider your dwelling. State and federal regulations guarentee you'll have a bathroom, a refridgerator and stove, but it is the *details* of your domicile that make you love or hate it.
It would be nice to be OS agnostic. I am not. I've been burned by M$ too many times. I'd rather work with technologies driven by coders than marketers. Of course, you may enjoy updating your Office every two years and applying service packs to beat the band.
For me, it is a requirement that I be kept as far away from MICROS~1 as possible.
This story is nearly identical to the Daily Show's story about the English lad who made similiar devices to help with "discreet hookups".
Just fabulous. I suppose this beats the old
"I'm available for humping" stickers I normally wear...
I fear you are correct. The sanity-blasting truth of these multi-tendriled fascist space monsters is known to me all too dearly. At certain ghoulish times of the year, my sleep is haunted by the dreams of slime covered, cyclopean columns which mark out a dead alien city. Shadowy figures shuffle along its centuried streets. How many aeons have past since those enormous walls were formed I dare not ponder. Even in the bright light of day, I fear I hear the horrible clicking of their hellish maws at the very limit of perception.
A first stike? I think the war is lost before the first volley of arms. I will no more be reading Slashdot because I now do what must be done. I go to the sea the follow the ancient call of our nightmare God.
AI! Cthulhu F'htagn!!
Yes, there are school names that would NEVER have made it through test marketing today. I have have to say that an all-girl school named Beaver sounds the setup to a marginal joke. Imagine the testimonials:
Sigh.
I was getting 500 Server Errors all morning. :-)
Man, it can't be a pleasant morning around the old Slash compound today.
Production servers down. I think we've all been there. I wish slashdot kept a world accessable admin log. It would be an interesting read.
Cheers.
As Cringley reported, Microsoft's entry into the streaming media market is causing waves. There's no doubt in my mind that if M$ wasn't trying to 0wn this market, that Real Networks would continue to ignore Linux.
I sometimes wonder if Linux will ever be seen by business as something other than a loss leader. Why do only floundering companies come to Linux? Why can't Linux attract mainstream developers on the strength its userbase and programming API?
Given the rise of such quirky languages like Perl and Python, which both use weaker typing, automatically garbage collect and provide associative arrays, would you add or remove any features from C++? Would you provide for more robust string handling?
Try giving a female the python? Would I have to buy her dinner first?
How long will it take for this thread to dissolve into mindless zealotry? I suggest 10 posts max.
In the article, the author notes that: "As much as I admire Perl, I would never recommend it to a beginner". I'm just not certain this is valid.
Yes, Perl is a very complex language, but its high level abstractions allow the student to focus on the way algorithms work without getting too boggled by implementation. Python also allows for these while providing a "cleaner" OO interface.
Please, lets use these two great OSS tools in peace and harmony. There is rivalry here simply because the languages are more similar than not.
In this age of internet start-ups, you may well be correct. Software engineering, the practice of carefully and delibrately constructing the best possible system, could be dead. That doesn't mean that it should be.
Creating a program or an application that accomplishes its tasks, can be modified readily by other coders and is scalable/portable to other architectures is difficult. Just "coding more" belies the fundamental complexity of development.
One can learn a lot by reading. Many software tasks have been encountered before. Instead of wasting time on coding, try finding the solution in a book or a software library. Reinventing the wheel is wasteful.
Frankly, coding is boring. Designing systems is where the beauty of "programming" lies.
I have to agree with points 1, 2 and 4. The trolling is getting tiring. Karma and devotion to this site ought to count for something.
:-)
Issue 3, exponential delays for posting, might
be a bit tough to implement. Perhaps not nearly as important as newbies starting at -1.
Anyway, looks like Slashdot is in for a little DDoS of its own.
ERROR: Windows has detected that you have moved your mouse. Please reboot this machine for changes to take effect.
Restart now?
Very very sad. You gotta think there are Redmonders (the sane ones) who are CRINGING at this statement. M$ needs a healthy shot of reality. Believing your own hype is deadly.
:-)
You know, there's probably a lesson in there for OSS too.
Cheers
Sigh.
DoS are NOT new. They are not even a nineties event. Perhaps distributed attacks are considered new, but the Internet Worm of the late 80's, infesting and attacking new machines virally, certains falls under this rubric.
*nix machines *can* be vulnerable to "unwanted code". Any machine with network services *can* be vulernable. Remember the melissa virus? Spread via email. Last I checked, Exchange didn't bounce that "unwanted code" without a scanner. Sheesh. FUD.
I assume the author is referring to places like rootshell.com which posts exploits. Rootkit is nothing new. There are rootkits for all systems. Even NT.
Wrong. Windows systems *are* just as vulnerable to being hi-jacked. This is crazy talk. Now, the Mac Classic I use as a bookend isn't at risk to be 0wned. Or even b0ught...
The question that remains for me is whether this reporter was Fooled, Uninformed or Dumb?
Articles like this only serve to irrate. They neither inform nor persuade.
Cheers.
Mr Katz,
You have experienced the full fury of slashdot readership rage, and yet continue to post thoughtful and expressive articles. We are moving into a world of more online forums, so how do you feel these dialogs ought to be handled in this environment? How do you think they *will* be handled?
I'm going to make you my Junkyard whore, Pudge.
Just you wait...
Coelacanth. It's a fish thought to be exinct for thousands of years. Coelacanth?
There are lots of ways to use Perl effectively to build and maintain sites. I used modules and mop_perl for my Aliens, Aliens, Aliens site. Most of the functionality comes from a single module which is used by various scripts which access particular tables.
However, if I had to build it again, I would have gone with HTML::Mason, which is a very powerful embedded perl system, like PHP, Cold Fusion, ASP, Zope, etc. It is open source and very nice if you already know Perl. If you don't, wouldn't Cold Fusion be the easiest embedded HTML language to use? Consider that Allaire is close to release CF for Linux. 8-)
In the end, any system which helps you the programmer separate form from functionality is the tool to use. The days of hard coding perl scripts to generate HTML are over, I hope.
Games and porn drive hardware and software makers to make "better stuff". I look forward to the day I can reformat my win95 (which is used for games), because all the best games will be on Linux.
I'm afraid I've had a very similiar experience. I've only been looking for one year, though.
I have to hand it ALL the slashdot gang for creating something truly unique: a community around a website. Sure, we've used BBSes and usenet, but I don't believe anyone has so successfully built a community using the web. Huzzah and kudos!
There's *a lot* of bitching here about the slow release of the next slashdot tarball. That's really unfortunate. Rob has already posted some code. You are welcome to fork the project.
Slashdot inspired me to rewrite and rework my tired old website into a weblog. Oddly enough, it too uses mysql and mod_perl. There is a great deal of customization that goes into creating your own "look and feel". Both slashdot and my code were designed to solve our *particular* problems. Aside from being examples of Perl code, you might be better served by looking a general web UI solutions that separate form from functionality. Like Zope or Mason. These are far better places to start than to rework code that was never designed to meet general problems.
Although I have GPL my code and even gotten a few people to use it, I realize that while what I have works for me, it's a better community service to show folks the Better Way. But hell, hack whatever you'd like (naked). :-)
Dude, if you're too damned lazy to read the manual, don't blame perl for your errors.
perldoc -f localtime is plain on how perl counts years.
I'm sorry you assumed localtime behaved other than it does.
Perl went out of the way to PREVENT a Y2K issue. You abused the language. But, hell, we all make mistakes.
If I were a manager, I don't think I'd find Dilbert's portrail of the PHB to be funny at all. The pressures of management and the lack of support for middle managers are breath takingly horrendous. Your underlings hate you. Your boss hates you. It can be a really soul crushing experience.
Which is why it makes for GREAT comedy. When people fail to laugh at thier own situation, life is a long series of miseries. For people learning computers (and we were ALL here at one time), there is a lot of humor in one's first attempts to chain the bit beast. "Where's the 'any' key?"
"Should I hit the 'Ok' button?"
Do teachers make fun of students? Well, not to the student's face, but I've had the confidence of my teachers. You want to talk about vicious? Are you looking for Komedy?
The real issue is that the line between humor and cruelty is periliously thin. I feel that we are all brave enough to explore humor even though we may become casualities ourselves.
D'oh!