Daft Punk did it with Discovery. You recieved a credit-card like card, with which you used the number on it to download music, videos, and more. The cd itself was not copy protected as far as I could tell, it worked in everything I had.
If this were to pass, it would kill off a good chunk of the consumer electronics industry. Costs of making everything from microphones to camcorders to TV's would increase in cost, while some things will become useless to consumers (think.. trying to film your daughter's wedding, and when the dj plays some copyrighted music, the camcorder "shuts down"). Speaking of "Shutting Down", have they been clear as to if it is a temporary shutdown, or death to the device, such as the iMAC's with the copy protected cds?
The end result will be people using old stuff. I dont care what new features are thrown in, if something is loaded with all this new junk only to serve the interests of all already well-profiting company, im not going to buy it.
Where is the CE Industry at a time like this? Don't they have sufficient lobbying power too?
Am I missing something?
on
SSSCA Hearing
·
· Score: 1
How, exactly, would copy protection work as it applies to a computer, even on a wintel platform? Would every program have to be run through some kind of wrapper that filters out 'possibly copyrighted' material? Anyone really have an idea or is this another case of "we dont know that its technicially unfeasible, nor do we care, but we MUST have it anyway, and there MUST be a law giving it to us"
Am I the only one, or are there others out there who only casually copy stuff they would not otherwise buy... for example, If I like a band, or several songs on an album, ill buy it. If I only want to check out a song that isnt on the radio without buying a $20 piece of useless plastic, im going to download it. If it turns out it sucks, ill delete it. If I wasnt able to do that, I still wouldnt buy it.
Take software for example also, how many people do you know who have unauthorized copies of Office pro or Visual Studio or some other rediculously priced software, usually so they can learn how to use it, and would never be able to afford it anyway?
Of course, they never consider that, they always say theyre losing money, but in reality, they arent 'losing' sales at all.
DRM is tied into the Windows Media spec. The way MS has been touting DRM in recent times would be a good reason for them to include it right in. After all, they were just awarded a patent on a DRM OS, and why else would MS care to include "in-the-clear" Windows Media on a dvd player, especially if it would make piracy easier just by sticking the disc into a pc and copying the files?
Again, One reason DIVX failed was because there was an alternative. You take away the alternative, consumers would have to buy the MS version or none at all.
This wouldn't be stupid on Microsoft's part. Sneaky, relentless, monopolistic, yes. And I wouldn't say Microsoft learns from the past... but thats an issue for a different discussion.
...the/. story from yesterday re: Windows Media Support in DVD players. As I speculated, these DVD players would ship with modems and "Digital Rights Checking" support. Of course, to do this, you would need DRM support in the controlling OS of the device, hence the DRM-OS that microsoft has claimed patent on.
Im thinking this a ploy to sneak in DIVX-style (the pay per view dvd format, not the PC Codec..) controls once again. I wouldnt be the list bit suprised if these "Windows Media Enabled" DVD players ship with built in modems for "Media Use Rights Verificiation" and soon we will see movies come in only Windows Media format, and then they will become pay per view. Now that the world is hooked on DVD, why not do it this way? If Microsoft can convince studios (as I am sure it can) to use their methods, it will go downhill fast. DVIX was attempted before DVD's were in nearly every home and at the time there was always the alternative to buy the standard DVD. If there is no alternative, what do you think the average consumer would do?
Obviously the government is already in Microsoft's pocket. There is little left to do short of hardcore protesting and voting with our dollars, refusing to give in to Microsoft's monopolistic practices.
Does Microsoft really expect everyone who buys an X-Box to use the online plan? That's kind of frightening. I don't plan on playing online with the X-Box (I don't even like online PC games, my preference) and I'm sure many traditional console gamers prefer single player or just popping in another controller.
You missed the part of the Xbox 'license agreement' where you are required to purchase online service, else the license expires;p
Seriously though, does the xbox come with any form of "agreement", and if so, has anyone read it?
> Session information could and should be keep on the server.
Session information IS kept on the server. All that is placed in the cookie for a session is your session identifier, a random but unique string. If this string is placed at the end of a url, then everything goes all to hell, because if someone logs in, then sends that url to their friend, then that person is also logged in as the first person, and hence a much bigger problem than cookies.
I wish I could find the zealots who proclaim that cookies are so evil. I had to give a whole presentation on what cookies are and what they aren't to this university just to build a PHP app that used sessions!
I guess, we could really inconvienience our users by having them log in each and every time they want to do something....
Again, legislating or litigating away technological progress isn't going to help anything.
I dont know alot about TiVo, Ive been 10x more interested in the Replay 4000... but doesnt the TiVo also have commercial skip? If so, why hasnt TiVo been sued? Oh, wait, let me guess, this lawsuit isn't really about that.... SonicBlue added a network connection to their PVR, and thats all it takes for a device to be sued over these days.
Big companies dont care about bad PR anymore, most (and before you flame I said *most*, not all) Americans just keep doing the same old routine, regardless of whats in the news, So companies like GE and Disney have no reason not to sue. I don't honestly see how the device is hurting them.. Sure, commercial skip, but since when was it a law that we had to watch commercials? I am sure many americans ignore or change the channel during many commercials. Not to mention, if this lawsuit goes through, and the networks win, that paves the way for these banner ad blockers to be sued- and our courts give corporations free reign to shove advertising down the american consumers throats.
Why do corporations keep trying to litigate away all technological progress (usually successfully)?
I think by lowering the framerate a tad could save some resources, along with using the motion-sensing technique mentioned...
With 1000 cameras being archived to hard drives, you are going to burn space fast. There is no way that doing this on a single system or even a handful of systems is going to work... I dont know alot of detail, but the computing center I work in now has nothing but digital security cameras, which are being saved onto hard drives, and we dump each weeks data to tape for archiving. Software and hardware from Axis... not sure of the address, but they also make the nifty webcam server that I manage as part of my webmaster job...
the same company who makes 2000 linux kits for the ps2 in japan, which sell out in 8 minutes, but wont make more? Why would a company not want to make an extremely popular, profitable product? *especially* since recently sony posted a loss? Seems like sony's execs have forgotten they are running a business and need to make money..oh wait...they must have drank from the same kool aid vat as most dot com execs have...oh well...
Life goes on. Ive always held Sony as being top notch, but this kind of behavior makes me reconsider that...
Money talks, as long as people continue to support the ISP's and companies who love the DMCA, they will continue to ignore those of us with valid complaints against the DMCA, etc. Our goverment is no different... if you want a senator to listen to you, you should be prepared to shell out some cash.
I say its time we boycott providers and companies with ties to things such as the DMCA and absurd patents. The same goes for those who dislike Microsofts business practices. If you want a company to listen to the voice of the people, they need a reason to. As long as the cash is flowing in, they wont change.
Face it, democracy is dead. The time has come to wage war and fight back for our freedoms.
Alright, I searched around. And when i did, i found this tidbit:
CDDB will continue to be a FREE service for users worldwide. It is our intent extensively broaden the utility and the content of the database.
We have an "officially-supported" players program in order to insure full CDDB compatibility. Additionally, we are working on a next generation SDK for CD Player developers that will also be free and will provide access to next generation CDDB functionality.
Please feel free to contact us directly if we can answer any additional questions or concerns.
Best regards, jk
Jim Kinney
Vice President, General Manager
CDDB, Inc., an Internet enterprise of Escient, LLC
I guess this should be a lesson. Never trust corporations. They have one goal: MONEY. Yes thats why there in business so Its no suprise, but any time you see a big company buy an open or free project/small company, dont believe everything they say.
Um, I Knew this happened a while back, but how exactly did the CDDB get taken over by the money hungry dolts at Gracenote? Did they sell out? Did they drink from the same kool-aid vat as rambus?
I know its a little off topic, but can someone give me a url or info?
My dad still has one of those Kodak Cameras. He was supposed to turn it in for the recall when Kodak lost. I bet its a collectors item now. At any rate, while it may sound absurd to us logical-thinking people, it is not at all impossible for Magnaquench to win this, and if they do, its gonna be a mess...
My.02
Ya really hit the mark there. Including the recent video game censorship crap, we have really been trying to cloak the world in a false sense of reality being all pure and crap. If someones a dick, call em a dick. Mundie, is obviously only saying things for the advancement of himself and his corporation. Microsoft couldnt give a shit about the 'good of the people' yada yada. They just want the ability to ripoff other peoples work and make profit from it, which the GPL tries to prevent!
Microsoft, Gates, Ballmer, Mundie: You all might want a reality check about what is happening to your company. Every DAY more and more people open their eyes to how your company is fucking them or their company. This will only continue for so long guys...
Well, the USA is *supposed* to be free and all, you know, that constitution thing some old guys wrote up long time ago ? I say Linus made a good remark. Hell, he can say what he wants. He owes nothing to no one. If you feel what he said was offensive or otherwise bad, well, thats your opinion. I for one believe it is time to stop letting MS bully the open source community. If corporations wouldnt take the MS bullying, they wouldnt have the ridiculous license hassles to deal with.
Im waiting for Microsoft's response to Linus's. Are we at the beginning rounds of what could be an all out war-- MS vs. World?
What the corporate environment wants is standardization. This isn't true of all corporations, but in general they want to pick something and use it exclusively. Note the large contracts companies have, usually with one or two OEMs. In most companies, MS is the software of choice. They want to have Windows and Office on every machine, and they want everything to work the same. MS is trying to do that.
Now think about what you just said. Sure MS is the software of choice now. But what if there were no other choice? MS would be totally free to charge anything they want, on any terms they dictate (which, in their eyes, can be changed daily). Take this example: in your server room, you have Sun, HP, IBM, and some NT-Based hardware. Right now you run 4 OS's. Hardly Standardized. Your users? they run anything from windows 95, 98, NT 4, 2000, Mac OS 8-X, even a few linux desktops. Now, I ask, you want to provide a range of services from your servers, to all your clients, what would you use? Personally, I would pick linux. I say this coming from an environment exactly like I described, and management is considering the switch. You dont give the same training, the same job description, the same salary, the same desk chair, to EVERYONE in the company, why force them all to a computing platform that may not meet individual needs?
I dont agree. I see slashdot as a place to find out what's going on with the author's opinion thrown in. Slashdot isn't an online magazine in my opinion. They rarely write full stories, rather, they post links to stories that are usually submitted by readers. I have read slashdot for a long time, before it was bought by andover (and then va..). It has pretty much been a community of linux/bsd/open source users, and probably will always have that twist. I find slashdot very resourceful and useful, it filters out the crap. If you dont like the way it works, there are plenty of other news sites that kiss up to microsoft daily.
I just read in the article it mentioned it worked on linux+acl patches, but really I have been arguing for an open source OS (to run practically all the machines in the server room- would make alotta things easier, right now we have: HPUX, Solaris Sparc, Solaris x86, WinNT, Win2k, etc...)
With our current hardware, linux *could* run on all the machines (can BSD? I dont know. Im asking. Im not too familiar with BSD other than its another open source OS that is UNIX like)
Im not a linux zealot, just want to know...:)
Education is a good thing
As for CURRENT vs Stable... if a decision were to be made today to run BSD or Linux, it wouldnt actually happen for months...I would hope that within that time a Stable version would be out to incorporate the updates...
This has been one reason my employer keeps arguing against linux fileservers, the lack of support for win2k acls.. maybe now they will think again (or come up with another argument?)
Does anyone have any other good points (besides the obvious) for a university to switch from running windows2k/NT on its fileservers? Right now, we have nearly 20 boxes in the machine room running winNT/2k, seems like there are too many machines. What about things like win2k logons/remote access? Is there a way to manage this under linux/bsd?
Now wait a second here, you're ignoring the education factor. Ive been watching R rated violent movies for as long as I can remember (9-10 years old?) playing violent video games since I had a computer (13), even seeing all the sex and nudity society provides, and then some. I seem to be doing fine. I never wake up with desires to go out and shoot anyone. Ive never raped or beat a woman, nor have I had the desire too. And still, I dont find the occurance of these things (violence/sex) in real life any more acceptable. Maybe because I grew up with parents who actually knew how to parent. My dad always taught me what was right and wrong, without having to pull the blanket over my eyes. I feel that because I was shown the world AND educated on it (by someone who I looked up to- my father) I am the non-violent, non-abusive person I am today and I still enjoy violent video games (Unreal, Quake, Etc) as well as movies of all sorts.
Just take a look at some countries who dont try to shroud their youth from everything 'bad' in the world, and you will see what I mean... If a kid is never taught that something is wrong, how would they know not to do it?
My 0.02 (used to be 0.03 but the stock price fell)
Slashdot Mirror
Daft Punk did it with Discovery. You recieved a credit-card like card, with which you used the number on it to download music, videos, and more.
The cd itself was not copy protected as far as I could tell, it worked in everything I had.
If this were to pass, it would kill off a good chunk of the consumer electronics industry. Costs of making everything from microphones to camcorders to TV's would increase in cost, while some things will become useless to consumers (think.. trying to film your daughter's wedding, and when the dj plays some copyrighted music, the camcorder "shuts down"). Speaking of "Shutting Down", have they been clear as to if it is a temporary shutdown, or death to the device, such as the iMAC's with the copy protected cds?
The end result will be people using old stuff. I dont care what new features are thrown in, if something is loaded with all this new junk only to serve the interests of all already well-profiting company, im not going to buy it.
Where is the CE Industry at a time like this? Don't they have sufficient lobbying power too?
How, exactly, would copy protection work as it applies to a computer, even on a wintel platform? Would every program have to be run through some kind of wrapper that filters out 'possibly copyrighted' material? Anyone really have an idea or is this another case of "we dont know that its technicially unfeasible, nor do we care, but we MUST have it anyway, and there MUST be a law giving it to us"
Am I the only one, or are there others out there who only casually copy stuff they would not otherwise buy... for example, If I like a band, or several songs on an album, ill buy it. If I only want to check out a song that isnt on the radio without buying a $20 piece of useless plastic, im going to download it. If it turns out it sucks, ill delete it. If I wasnt able to do that, I still wouldnt buy it.
Take software for example also, how many people do you know who have unauthorized copies of Office pro or Visual Studio or some other rediculously priced software, usually so they can learn how to use it, and would never be able to afford it anyway?
Of course, they never consider that, they always say theyre losing money, but in reality, they arent 'losing' sales at all.
DRM is tied into the Windows Media spec. The way MS has been touting DRM in recent times would be a good reason for them to include it right in. After all, they were just awarded a patent on a DRM OS, and why else would MS care to include "in-the-clear" Windows Media on a dvd player, especially if it would make piracy easier just by sticking the disc into a pc and copying the files?
Again, One reason DIVX failed was because there was an alternative. You take away the alternative, consumers would have to buy the MS version or none at all.
This wouldn't be stupid on Microsoft's part. Sneaky, relentless, monopolistic, yes. And I wouldn't say Microsoft learns from the past... but thats an issue for a different discussion.
...the /. story from yesterday re: Windows Media Support in DVD players. As I speculated, these DVD players would ship with modems and "Digital Rights Checking" support. Of course, to do this, you would need DRM support in the controlling OS of the device, hence the DRM-OS that microsoft has claimed patent on.
Im thinking this a ploy to sneak in DIVX-style (the pay per view dvd format, not the PC Codec..) controls once again. I wouldnt be the list bit suprised if these "Windows Media Enabled" DVD players ship with built in modems for "Media Use Rights Verificiation" and soon we will see movies come in only Windows Media format, and then they will become pay per view. Now that the world is hooked on DVD, why not do it this way? If Microsoft can convince studios (as I am sure it can) to use their methods, it will go downhill fast. DVIX was attempted before DVD's were in nearly every home and at the time there was always the alternative to buy the standard DVD. If there is no alternative, what do you think the average consumer would do?
Obviously the government is already in Microsoft's pocket. There is little left to do short of hardcore protesting and voting with our dollars, refusing to give in to Microsoft's monopolistic practices.
Does Microsoft really expect everyone who buys an X-Box to use the online plan? That's kind of frightening. I don't plan on playing online with the X-Box (I don't even like online PC games, my preference) and I'm sure many traditional console gamers prefer single player or just popping in another controller.
;p
You missed the part of the Xbox 'license agreement' where you are required to purchase online service, else the license expires
Seriously though, does the xbox come with any form of "agreement", and if so, has anyone read it?
> Session information could and should be keep on the server.
Session information IS kept on the server. All that is placed in the cookie for a session is your session identifier, a random but unique string. If this string is placed at the end of a url, then everything goes all to hell, because if someone logs in, then sends that url to their friend, then that person is also logged in as the first person, and hence a much bigger problem than cookies.
I wish I could find the zealots who proclaim that cookies are so evil. I had to give a whole presentation on what cookies are and what they aren't to this university just to build a PHP app that used sessions!
I guess, we could really inconvienience our users by having them log in each and every time they want to do something....
Again, legislating or litigating away technological progress isn't going to help anything.
I dont know alot about TiVo, Ive been 10x more interested in the Replay 4000... but doesnt the TiVo also have commercial skip? If so, why hasnt TiVo been sued? Oh, wait, let me guess, this lawsuit isn't really about that.... SonicBlue added a network connection to their PVR, and thats all it takes for a device to be sued over these days.
Big companies dont care about bad PR anymore, most (and before you flame I said *most*, not all) Americans just keep doing the same old routine, regardless of whats in the news, So companies like GE and Disney have no reason not to sue. I don't honestly see how the device is hurting them.. Sure, commercial skip, but since when was it a law that we had to watch commercials? I am sure many americans ignore or change the channel during many commercials. Not to mention, if this lawsuit goes through, and the networks win, that paves the way for these banner ad blockers to be sued- and our courts give corporations free reign to shove advertising down the american consumers throats.
Why do corporations keep trying to litigate away all technological progress (usually successfully)?
I think by lowering the framerate a tad could save some resources, along with using the motion-sensing technique mentioned...
With 1000 cameras being archived to hard drives, you are going to burn space fast. There is no way that doing this on a single system or even a handful of systems is going to work... I dont know alot of detail, but the computing center I work in now has nothing but digital security cameras, which are being saved onto hard drives, and we dump each weeks data to tape for archiving. Software and hardware from Axis... not sure of the address, but they also make the nifty webcam server that I manage as part of my webmaster job...
the same company who makes 2000 linux kits for the ps2 in japan, which sell out in 8 minutes, but wont make more? Why would a company not want to make an extremely popular, profitable product? *especially* since recently sony posted a loss? Seems like sony's execs have forgotten they are running a business and need to make money..oh wait...they must have drank from the same kool aid vat as most dot com execs have...oh well...
Life goes on. Ive always held Sony as being top notch, but this kind of behavior makes me reconsider that...
'Y Tu, Sony?'
Money talks, as long as people continue to support the ISP's and companies who love the DMCA, they will continue to ignore those of us with valid complaints against the DMCA, etc. Our goverment is no different... if you want a senator to listen to you, you should be prepared to shell out some cash.
I say its time we boycott providers and companies with ties to things such as the DMCA and absurd patents. The same goes for those who dislike Microsofts business practices. If you want a company to listen to the voice of the people, they need a reason to. As long as the cash is flowing in, they wont change.
Face it, democracy is dead. The time has come to wage war and fight back for our freedoms.
Alright, I searched around. And when i did, i found this tidbit:
CDDB will continue to be a FREE service for users worldwide. It is our intent extensively broaden the utility and the content of the database.
We have an "officially-supported" players program in order to insure full CDDB compatibility. Additionally, we are working on a next generation SDK for CD Player developers that will also be free and will provide access to next generation CDDB functionality.
Please feel free to contact us directly if we can answer any additional questions or concerns.
Best regards, jk
Jim Kinney
Vice President, General Manager
CDDB, Inc., an Internet enterprise of Escient, LLC
I guess this should be a lesson. Never trust corporations. They have one goal: MONEY. Yes thats why there in business so Its no suprise, but any time you see a big company buy an open or free project/small company, dont believe everything they say.
Um, I Knew this happened a while back, but how exactly did the CDDB get taken over by the money hungry dolts at Gracenote? Did they sell out? Did they drink from the same kool-aid vat as rambus?
I know its a little off topic, but can someone give me a url or info?
Thanks!!!!!
My dad still has one of those Kodak Cameras. He was supposed to turn it in for the recall when Kodak lost. I bet its a collectors item now. At any rate, while it may sound absurd to us logical-thinking people, it is not at all impossible for Magnaquench to win this, and if they do, its gonna be a mess... My .02
Ya really hit the mark there. Including the recent video game censorship crap, we have really been trying to cloak the world in a false sense of reality being all pure and crap. If someones a dick, call em a dick. Mundie, is obviously only saying things for the advancement of himself and his corporation. Microsoft couldnt give a shit about the 'good of the people' yada yada. They just want the ability to ripoff other peoples work and make profit from it, which the GPL tries to prevent!
Microsoft, Gates, Ballmer, Mundie: You all might want a reality check about what is happening to your company. Every DAY more and more people open their eyes to how your company is fucking them or their company. This will only continue for so long guys...
Well, the USA is *supposed* to be free and all, you know, that constitution thing some old guys wrote up long time ago ? I say Linus made a good remark. Hell, he can say what he wants. He owes nothing to no one. If you feel what he said was offensive or otherwise bad, well, thats your opinion. I for one believe it is time to stop letting MS bully the open source community. If corporations wouldnt take the MS bullying, they wouldnt have the ridiculous license hassles to deal with.
Im waiting for Microsoft's response to Linus's. Are we at the beginning rounds of what could be an all out war-- MS vs. World?
Just my 0.01 (Damn Market Conditions! )
Not bloody likely!
What the corporate environment wants is standardization. This isn't true of all corporations, but in general they want to pick something and use it exclusively. Note the large contracts companies have, usually with one or two OEMs. In most companies, MS is the software of choice. They want to have Windows and Office on every machine, and they want everything to work the same. MS is trying to do that.
Now think about what you just said. Sure MS is the software of choice now. But what if there were no other choice? MS would be totally free to charge anything they want, on any terms they dictate (which, in their eyes, can be changed daily). Take this example: in your server room, you have Sun, HP, IBM, and some NT-Based hardware. Right now you run 4 OS's. Hardly Standardized. Your users? they run anything from windows 95, 98, NT 4, 2000, Mac OS 8-X, even a few linux desktops. Now, I ask, you want to provide a range of services from your servers, to all your clients, what would you use? Personally, I would pick linux. I say this coming from an environment exactly like I described, and management is considering the switch. You dont give the same training, the same job description, the same salary, the same desk chair, to EVERYONE in the company, why force them all to a computing platform that may not meet individual needs?
Yeah... I can agree with that... but i dont think /. will ever change its ways... :)
I dont agree. I see slashdot as a place to find out what's going on with the author's opinion thrown in. Slashdot isn't an online magazine in my opinion. They rarely write full stories, rather, they post links to stories that are usually submitted by readers. I have read slashdot for a long time, before it was bought by andover (and then va..). It has pretty much been a community of linux/bsd/open source users, and probably will always have that twist. I find slashdot very resourceful and useful, it filters out the crap. If you dont like the way it works, there are plenty of other news sites that kiss up to microsoft daily.
My 1/5 of a dime...
I just read in the article it mentioned it worked on linux+acl patches, but really I have been arguing for an open source OS (to run practically all the machines in the server room- would make alotta things easier, right now we have: HPUX, Solaris Sparc, Solaris x86, WinNT, Win2k, etc...)
:)
With our current hardware, linux *could* run on all the machines (can BSD? I dont know. Im asking. Im not too familiar with BSD other than its another open source OS that is UNIX like)
Im not a linux zealot, just want to know...
Education is a good thing
As for CURRENT vs Stable... if a decision were to be made today to run BSD or Linux, it wouldnt actually happen for months...I would hope that within that time a Stable version would be out to incorporate the updates...
This has been one reason my employer keeps arguing against linux fileservers, the lack of support for win2k acls.. maybe now they will think again (or come up with another argument?)
Does anyone have any other good points (besides the obvious) for a university to switch from running windows2k/NT on its fileservers? Right now, we have nearly 20 boxes in the machine room running winNT/2k, seems like there are too many machines. What about things like win2k logons/remote access? Is there a way to manage this under linux/bsd?
Now wait a second here, you're ignoring the education factor. Ive been watching R rated violent movies for as long as I can remember (9-10 years old?) playing violent video games since I had a computer (13), even seeing all the sex and nudity society provides, and then some. I seem to be doing fine. I never wake up with desires to go out and shoot anyone. Ive never raped or beat a woman, nor have I had the desire too. And still, I dont find the occurance of these things (violence/sex) in real life any more acceptable. Maybe because I grew up with parents who actually knew how to parent. My dad always taught me what was right and wrong, without having to pull the blanket over my eyes. I feel that because I was shown the world AND educated on it (by someone who I looked up to- my father) I am the non-violent, non-abusive person I am today and I still enjoy violent video games (Unreal, Quake, Etc) as well as movies of all sorts.
Just take a look at some countries who dont try to shroud their youth from everything 'bad' in the world, and you will see what I mean... If a kid is never taught that something is wrong, how would they know not to do it?
My 0.02 (used to be 0.03 but the stock price fell)