Slashdot Mirror
Magnet Patent Suits
toybuilder writes: "Magnequench holds a key patent on high-power neodymium-iron-boron (Nd-Fe-B) magnets that they claim is worth almost 1/2 of the world's permanent magnet market. These magnets are in use everywhere including motors in CD/DVD drives and in actuators in camcorders. They are suing a whole lotta companies including Compaq and HP. You can see the AP newswire at Yahoo or read the company's press release."
You know, folks, it is just possible that this company expended significant resources and R&D developing the technology they patented. I'm as much a proponent of open-source as the next geek, but right is right.
Don't automatically assume that just because it's something as ubiquitous as "a magnet", that it's been patented and the patent-holder is suing to protect his patent: that the patent is necessarily lame, that the patent-holder is a worthless individual/company that can't make a profit otherwise and that there's no valid claim.
This may come as a shock to the slash-jerk geek wannabes that seem to compose the majority (?) of /.'s participants these days, but not everything
in life worth having is free.
Seriously, where can I find these super strong magnets in at least a 10 pound size?
You're thinking of trademark law. Patents don't have to be defended. As long as this company hasn't threatened action and lapsed on that threat, estoppel doesn't apply, and they're free to pursue. However, they probably won't get more than 6 years worth of damages from infringers.
1) Trademark - Has to be applied for, has to be defended to continue existing. Never expires.
2) Copyright - Automatically granted, can be defended at anytime. Lasts life of author+70 years.
3) Patent - Has to be applied for. You can defend it at any time. last 25 years.
Maybe there should be a freqently asked questions section for slashdot?
Some suggestions are - How long do copyrights last? how long to patents last? Do you have to defend copyright to keep it? Do you have to defend patents to keep them? Should I post on Slashdot if I have no idea in the slightest of what I am talking about? If I put IANAL does that mean I can talk crap?
Even better are the ones that come from radars, they're a good 2 or 3kg each (and come in pairs), but I guess they're a tad harder to get ahold of.
[Science] is one of the very few things that raises human life a little above farce and gives it the grace of tragedy.
This is pretty typical. If the company wins in litigation, they will work out something less drastic.
...phil
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
And they just noticed that companies are using these types of magnets 20 fscking years later?!
These folks do manufacture magnets as well as research them. So it's quite possible people were buying magnets from them for a while, then undercut them with another supplier who is violating their patents. Among their patents are ones regarding manufacturing methods. So under standard patent law, they look to have a reasonable basis for the suit.
According to their website, several of the patents run out in the next few years, so they wouldn't be able to use them in legal actions for much longer.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
As opposed to USA where people are sued for saying what they think about encryption schemes...
Secret windows code
Clinton made me a Republican. Bush made me a Libertarian. Trump is making me question reality.
The only thing I can think is that they want infringing products destroyed and/or recalled and that would be part of any injunction or ruling.
CompUSA, Best Buy and Circuit City would have to comply with destroying their stock and also fulfilling the recall.
Chris
Ok, you can call me a bad parent but the amount of cra^H^H^H hmmm, I mean lovely picture they create in a day is just insane.
Black holes occur when God divides by zero.
Or perhaps not.
Unless you have evidence one way or the other, I don't see what justification you have to accuse them.
--
If your map and the terrain differ,
trust the terrain.
"BTW: if you're opposed to this sort of protection, prepare to go back to a pre-industrial revolution timescale for innovation."
Newtonian physics.
Gunpowder.
Steam Engines.
I could go on, but I won't- all of these were obtained during an era that didn't have patents to protect the "Intellectual Property" of these ideas. You have to admit, they're pretty innovative.
While I'm not opposed to patents per se, I am opposed to people making rash comments about things being way worse without them- they wouldn't exactly be worse, just different.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I don't think they were looking for gold. There were violent conflicts among them, and widespread illness. There is a theory that the were being poisoned by Spanish agents on their supply ships.
Ironically the USA didn't recognize other countries copyrights & patents for many years, much like 3rd world countries are doing today.
Isn't history annoying, always resisting attempts to mythologize it with awkward little facts?
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
Of course, in this case, it's fairly easy to argue that the companies named could have managed a patent search before using the technology.
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I really don't see why Compaq, Sony and every other tech manufacturer you can name should be sued because they're using the 'illegal' magnets in their products, unless they are actually manufacturing them. How much responsibility should a company have to audit their supplier? How can anyone be expected to make something if they have to keep going over their suppliers books?
Why stop here? What happens if I work for Compaq's Magnet Supplier, and I get sexually harassed while on the job. Shouldn't I be able to sue Compaq? Aren't they somehow responsible for... well, something?
If it's a valid case, sue the magnet manufacturers, not the 'end users' such as Compaq and Sony.
if you have a variety of sizes, they make cool wind chimes. All the same size would be boring unless you could retune the platters, which might prove difficult.
If you're in the market for super magnets, check out [Lee Valley Tools]. They're mainly a woodworking tools store, with some of the world's most beautiful and best tools.
.25" to 1". The direct-pull strength, when sandwiched between two pieces of steel, ranges from 2.5lbs to 30lbs.
They have also invented any number of handy tools and accessories -- an example where patenting is a good thing, because Lee Valley deserves to make a bundle from their brilliant innovations. It doesn't hurt that they price their stuff reasonably, too!
Anyway, back to their magnets: they sell rare-earth magnets in sizes from
Or in other metrics, their 3/4" magnet will, when placed in a steel cup, hold 3lbs on your fridge door... and that's with a felt pad to keep your enamel from being scratched!
They seel 'em flat and thin, as tall cylinders, or as rings. They're great fun to play with!
Alas, you can't mail-order them. You'll just have to go to the store, where you will then be tempted to spend thousands of dollars on all sorts of workshop toys!
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Oh, it's a geek mecca, let me tell you!
Look for their little black engineering reference book. Filled with arcane data.
Or their custom-made graph paper. Because regular graph paper, frankly, sucks wind.
Or... well, no. I best stop. I'm getting urges to purchase more shit...
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Well, he died at Cedars-Sinai in LA, but lived in Incline Village (near Tahoe), Nevada. An FOIA request should be able to get you the death certificate, which might include details of interment. Hope I've given you some helpful starting points--cheers.
spawn_of_yog_sothoth
oUch.
I'm sorry but I can't resist
Quote from magnequench:
Assistant Majority Whip Mike Pence (R-Ind.), who serves on the House Science Committee and whose Indiana district includes the Magnequench world headquarters, stated that "America?s technological leadership is its future. We need to make sure that those who steal intellectual property are brought to the bar of justice."
I still can't accept this when America has such a lame patent acceptance. Just about anything and everything people can think of gets patented in America even before it's actually been created, sometimes it is never intended to be created. Then when someone outside of America comes up with the goods, the patent filed in America comes into play an stifles the innovation created elsewhere.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that when we run out of healthy air to breathe because of the push by a certain firm to use their disgusting HFC patent to peddle products. That they also hold the patent on a device to produce breathable air and any other form used to do this will be an infringment.
All I can say is "Go Nature".
When shit hits the fan get some of these https://youtu.be/pY-GncsZ-UE
I'm in no position to judge, but it may not be the case that "high-power neodymium-iron-boron (Nd-Fe-B) magnets" "would naturally and spontaneously occur to any skilled mechanic or operator in the ordinary progress of manufactures. "
They'll come to some compromise and the whole thing will blow over - it always does.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Those little magnets are just awesome. I've been salvaging magnets from failed and obsolete disk drives for years, and have a nice collection of these insanely strong critters. My best acquisition was a set of four that came out of a nine-platter SCSI drive.
I love handing a pair of these little magnets to an unsuspecting guest, and ask them to separate them for me. One guy actually told me they were glued together, until I showed him how to slide the magnets apart to separate them.
Another good trick to do with an old (but functional) drive, before you take its guts out: take the cover off, hook the drive up, and run fsck on its contents while you mess with its guts. Touch the center of the platter stack to slow them down. Use a marker to write on the spinning platters. Put your finger on the center of rotation of the arms the R/W heads are mounted on. See how much abuse the drive will take and still function (I was kind of surprised).
I also like to salvage the disk-platter assemblies and set them out as objets d'art. They're really quite pretty!
--Jim
Can a utility restrict how the electrons they generate will be used? Can an iron mine sue a manufacturer for using sheet steel in their product?
The Yahoo article said "patent violations." It didn't say which ones...
Is this patent crap just going too far, or what?
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
John Yaya of Yoyodyne, Inc, announced today that his company has obtained a patent on their new magnetic suit. {you fill in the rest--refer disparagingly to Yoyodyne's stock holdings in plastic pens for extra credit. Also, describe how the person demonstrating the new suit was almost killed at the press conference when a reporter let his microphone slip, etc]
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Liberty uber alles.
As Oliver Hardy would have said: ``Well, isn't this a revolting development.''. Compaq and HP are now in the position of being sued because they didn't check that their magnet suppliers weren't violating someone's patent?
Since when did it become illegal to buy raw materials without doing Magnequench's work for them. Does this mean that just about anybody could be named in a patent lawsuit for buying a product that's in violation of some (possibly bogus) patent. My Compaq workstation's cursor is blinking. Does that mean I'm in trouble for violating that asinine XOR patent?
Seems to me that Magnequench should be going after Compaq's and HP's magnet suppliers.
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CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
In olden time, when a drive went bad, the kind that had removable cartridges, and you didn't spend the $$$ to get it fixed, there were several magnets that you could remove. First there were the magnets that held the cartridge to the spindle which were easily removed with a small screwdriver. These can be used to hold cardboard to the fridge. Then you could remove the covers and remove the solenoid magnet which was strong to troll for cars in the local lake. Screwdrivers placed on the solenoid magnet were magnetized such that they could darned near attract screws from across the table (which meant we had keep them out of the computer technician areas lest they clobber data on a floppy disk or a tape). But since these monsters weighed so much, they weren't terribly useful.
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CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
What we are witnessing, and living through, is the decline of our civilization. This country was founded on high ideals and moral principles. Sadly, the ultimate goal today is to ruthlessly make as much money as possible. The current rampant abuse of the patent system is just the tip of the iceberg.
At one time the "American Dream" had little to do with money directly. It used to be the notion that one could go to a free country and achieve everything they were capable of, without governmental hinderence. For some people this was the practice of their non-mainstream religion, for others it was the persuit of philosophies or studies suppressed elsewhere, for other the chance to explore the unknown, and, yes, for some it was the opportunity to persue wealth.
Now, the media have all come together and redefined the "American Dream" solely in terms of the persuit of wealth, even going so far as to equate it with winning the lottery (as if, prior to the 20th century, there had ever even been such an absurd notion).
At one time laws were intended to benefit society, and the production of wealth was but one component in an entire series of concepts which together were required to benefit society (others included free education, libraries, fire department and water services, land grants, etc.) This is not to say society was ideal, as at the same time there were horrific things going on (the enslavement of black Americans, the wholesale theft of land from native Americans, etc.), but only to point out that, at one time, laws and politicians were expected to serve the voting population of the country, and to a fair degree did so.
Now there isn't even the pretense of laws in the United States serving the American public, much less society as a whole. Is it any wonder, with our willingness as individuals (by and large) to sell every ideal down the river in the name of profit and income, that our government, as our representatives, behaves any differently?
Disgusting, yes, Reprehensible, yes. Self defeating and ultimately destructive (particularly with respect to government granted monopolies such as patents, copyrights, and other forms of IP), yes. But, given the direction the majority of the American people chose to go in 1980 and have continued toward since, hardly surprising. Fortunately for us, and the world, these sorts of things are self correcting, even if it means the US economy stagnating and even going third world before people become aware enough to start demanding the kinds of reforms which are necessary.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
It's amazing to think that Lemelson (or anyone one that supported him) could claim that companies were stealing ideas from him, when he ACTIVELY looked at what THEY were doing, to determine how he could create a patent that would (eventually) be used to extract money from them. What he did was tantamount to a form of legalized extortion, by using a company's own innovation against them, no less!
What a mess this guy was.
And no, this isn't patenting magnetism, breathing or any of the other tired clichés that get posted every time slashdot runs a story on patents. It takes real money and scientific research to invent improved permanent magnets.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Maybe compaq, Toshiba, et al have been using the magnets to stick crayon drawings to the refigerators in their respective break rooms. :-)
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Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
This half-baked inventor ripped off the patent system (and us, of ocurse, because we are paying). But he only was able to do it because the system was set up to let him get these ever-expanding patents without actually making anything.
But think about who else is gobbling up all of our options for the future via the USPO? Big corporations, who don't wait 40 years to cash in. More importantly, these big companies are the ones who are going to try to keep the system from changing. That is going to make this a long, hard struggle.
"Well it's not Victory - but then it's not Death either."
> What I found interesting was that their attorney is one Archibald Cox. Now if that's the
> Watergate Special Prosecutor, then they're not exactly skimping on the legal firepower,
> are they?
It's actually Archibold Cox, Jr.-- his *father* was the special prosecutor.
I met the man once. He's a very shrewd character, and Magnequench is only one of his ongoing projects.
jhw
But the difference it that Magnequench probably has a legitimate patent. The lifetime may be rediculous, but the patent is probably good (i.e., deserved).
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Although they may hold the patent in question, and legitimatly at that...
Suing companies that merely sell devices which contain infringing material for patent infringement is blatantly ridiculous. The appropriate targets should be the companies that manufacture the devices in question. As far as I know CompUsa and BestBuy don't have manufacturing plants that make such devices.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
Well I'll admit the mistake here. I was under the impression that they did have to be defended/asserted as per other intellectual property laws.
Of course perhaps this is an interesting thought in itself - why can someone be granted a patent, then wait for a few years before suing people under it?
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
This is more than the usual stupid patent/copyright cases here. It illustrates a lot of the issues that need to be considered about patents, copyright, and intellectual property.
And I strongly reccomend people write Assistant Majority Whip Mike Pence (Republican, Indiana) on his statement. Let him know the above points, let him know the issues.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
No. There is no blanked law covering Intellectual Property Rights.
Patents do not have to be defended. You can selectively enforce them however you want.
Trademark is what you are thinking of; trademark must be enforced, or it no longer has meaning.
However.. I'm puzzled by Past Damages. I was under the impression that with Patent, you cannot claim past damages, only future dealings. You can't say 'We just discovered this company has been using our patented technology for the last 20 years'. Unless you can prove the company knowingly violated your patent (ie: you asked them before and they ignored you) you're probably out of luck.
I don't understand the logic here. Compaq and HP have contracts with their suppliers that specify that the suplier must comply with any and all applicable patents. Why does the fact that Compaq and HP have money make them liable for the actions of others?
I can justify this from the perspective of the plaintiff's attorneys, who need to ensure that there's a pot of gold for them at the end of the day, but it doesn't make sense in the context of justice.
It can also make sense from the point of view of the patent-holder, since this action is likely to eliminate quite a number of their competitors.
I know, law and justice are completely separate concepts, and only the law can be enforced. But wouldn't it be nice if the law made some sense?
Except that any country worth suing in has signed the wto treaties which basically state "follow us patents and copyright laws and we can sue your citizens for taking our ip but you can't sue our companies for trashing your environment"
--Gfunk
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
I think what Calimus is trying to say that it doesn't make any sense (and I agree with him) to sue companies who only use, but do not produce these magnets, if that is in fact happening.
If company A makes a patented product, and sells it to Company B, is Company B liable for licensing fees? IANAL (NDIWTBO*), but it doesn't make sense for Company B to have to pay.
*Nor Do I Wish To Be One
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
To be frank, I'm getting quite tired of this whole intellectual rights business. Patent here, DVD there. I really think the best thing to do is let it go out of hand sometime. Preferably if some company succeeds to succesfully sue the US government about an important patent over something not too silly. Let's see if someone wakes up.
----------------------------------------------
the pun is mightier than the sword
I was told putting magnets near my drives would destroy my data.
And they expect me to believe there's tiny, patented, magnets in all of them?
Yeah . . . right.
Dirt doesn't need luck.
Shortly after reading this story I looked up how hard drives work and tore a couple broken ones apart.
The arms move crazy fast due to their linear actuated motors with very sexy magnets that can do neat tricks with my pack of cigarettes through the bar room table - the waitress actually yelped.
Dirt doesn't need luck.
Hehe...
Now, how do you like this, all you American capitalists? Beijing San Huan New Material High-tech, Inc ownz you!
Time to pay for not giving that public excuse for the spy plane quickly enough!
/E
I, for one, am a geek. That means I think for myself an I really don't give a fuck what the "average American" thinks. Yeah, we have nukes pointed at China, but you missed everything else in that post to get your little snippet in. People shouldn't undermine the fact that you're trying to be "friendly" with a country that has used sudden, lethal, decisive FORCE against it's own people without feeling bad about it, do you think it will feel the same doing it to another nation?
Yes, we've had similar problems. I can point to countless examples (Waco, the Weavers, etc). The primary difference is, you ask the average Chinese what their opinion on the Tianamen square massacre is. Most will look at you blankly and ask what the fuck you were talking about. Ask the average American what they thought about Waco. Most have an opinion and are probably somewhat-well informed. If they're not, it's from a lack of desire to know what happened. The information is, for the most part, free here.
I'm VERY anti-Chinese (at least their government). I'm a proponent of a Chinese boycott AND damn proud to be so. I find it disgusting that people can scream loudly for freedom and yet wear their "made in China" reeboks, a country where people don't know what freedom truly is (of course, it could be argued that the majority of them don't give a damn either way). I've come to this decision after objectively reviewing the material, weighing the options, etc. China, under its current rule, is unequivocally bad, in the freedom sense (and that's all I care about). China, under it's current government, doesn't give a fuck what you or I think. They are damn proud that they have a monopoly on thought, and are damn proud that millions of Chinese citizens at least SAY they're happy for the government to make all those decisions that make life tough. Have you tried reading their websites? You think MSNBC is biased, you should give it a try. Or maybe you should learn some chinese and then give it a try. Usually it's "Glorious governemnt *demands* American apology for their accident with our aircraft!" There's no two sides to the arguement with them. At least here, on slashdot, in the semi-free world, more than one-side to the story can be told.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Actually, I don't think we should do *anything* with China. No war, no trade, no nothing. Allow them to wallow in their own filth with no trade, no income, no infusion of technology and the current regime will crumble.
I agree, Americans are generally despised everywhere, as Americans tend to go everywhere thinking they're the "great saviors" much like Spanish Missionaries did in C. and S. America centuries ago, without bothering to ask if there was indeed anyone that actually *needed* saving.
If we have nukes pointed at China, I'm glad. Again, the reasoning is if a country's government is more than willing to use tanks to crush an unarmed protest/demonstration, that country will not hesitate to use physical force (this includes nuclear exchange) with a country that isn't even under it's own rule. In all honesty, who's more liable to initiate a nuclear exchange, a country that doesn't even acknowledge what we, the western world, recognize as *basic* human rights? Or a country that, although they may be the most heavily armed country in the world, has leadership that is directly accountable to the people and their votes? (it could be argued that the US government today is merely an extension of US Corporate interests, the public be damned, but that's an entirely different subject).
Yes, I in fact did acknowledge that there have been "Human Rights" abuses in this country. I also pointed out that where there was abuse, we know about it or have means to know about it and have the right to voice our opinion (and exercise our vote) regarding it. However, I would also point out that many "human rights" that the current "left" engenders are not rights at all, but privileges. No one *ever* promised you'd be happy, just that you had the right to be so and to pursue it, within a course of reason.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
And America doesn't have nuclear bombs pointed at Chinese cities? But "thats different, Americans are the good guys" ..
I'm not saying China doesn't have a lacking in the human rights department, but quite frankly, the anti-China sentiment seen in the US media (and on /.) has gone way past objective levels - people don't seem to be thinking clearly about it, they're posting the most ridiculous statements.
Do you really, really believe that the average American's opinion on China has not been clouded by a slew of media propag^H^H^H^H^H^H, uh, "information" about China?
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Yeah, we have nukes pointed at China, but you missed everything else in that post to get your little snippet in
That wasn't my purpose. I bundled the other stuff under the general comment about human rights. I know China is lacking in human rights. I'm not disputing that at all. I just completely disagree with the way that America is handling China, it is incredibly dangerous and quite frankly, fscking stupid. Yes, the Chinese government is "in the wrong". Yes, they lie, and keep their people in the dark with propaganda. The way I see it is, during the next 100 years, it is almost a certainty that China will undergo some sort of "freedom revolution", this seems to be the overall trend in todays society. So the only question is, will it be a bloody revolution, or a "peaceful" revolution? Do thousands (maybe millions) of people need to die to bring it about? I don't think so, freedom can be attained without largescale bloodshed (e.g. South Africa). So the US wants to see freedom of Chinese people. How do they go about it? They provoke. They have huge 'China is evil and the USA is great(*)' media (propaganda) campaigns. They portray the Chinese as evil (**). Americans seem to think that doing this will pressure the Chinese government into improving policy. Ha, right! It will only serve to provoke, and escalate tensions. Is that the right way to export the principles of freedom and democracy? You attack someone (not physically I mean), they go on the defensive, and you will not convince them of anything after that. All the US is doing is convincing the Chinese government more and more that their own animosity towards the USA is justified. There is a reason that the US is so hated in many countries (e.g. Iraq) - the US comes across as being really arrogant, pushy and self-righteous. This makes it very easy for totalitarian rulers to push anti-US propaganda. Do you really believe that the right way to change China is for the US to go to war with China? This is what may well happen if current trends are extrapolated. Is it worth it for thousands of Americans and Chinese to die? I don't see it as a necessary solution. You're not going to convince the Chinese what freedom truly is by going about it the way you are currently.
All things considered, the US has a pretty lousy human rights record (McCarthy era, slavery, racism, womens rights etc). The system itself though does seem to correct itself over time, which makes it a worthwhile system. But Americans must remember just how far from perfect their system is when they make noise about the problems in other countries. From the perspective of somebody living outside the US, you people come across as believing yourselves to be so much better and more righteous than everyone else (I'm not saying it is that way, but that is the impression you give, and that counts for a lot). Myself, I think the US would have a more positive influence on other countries if they adopted a more humble approach. Because everyone else is sick of hearing the same crap over and over about "how great this country of ours truly is" and about "the principles on which this great country of ours was founded" and how the US "stands up to protect and defend" others, "defenders of the free world", blah blah blah. Self-appointed "big brother" (not in the orwell sense).
(*) See CNN reports when US pilots returned home, its not even subtle. Its flat out "USA is such a great wonderful country" propaganda.
(**) Russians no longer seem to be the evil guys in US television and movies. Grep all 80's TV scripts for "russia" and replace with "china". Chinese are now portrayed as being maniacally bent on ruling the world by force, a show I saw just a couple of days ago portrayed the Chinese government as wantonly trying to completely nuke entire USA. Pretty lame, yes, but that sort of thing brainwashes on a large scale.
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And incidentally, in 1995 the whole shebang was acquired by a Chinese holding company. Yes, a Chinese company suddenly has the potential to drastically affect a large portion of the American computer-manufacturing market. Does anyone think *that* might have interesting repurcussions worth discussing?
Gosh, you mean this might be an ATTACK on the GOOD GUYS from the EVIL CHINESE!?!? Uhm, lets see now ... the list of defendants includes Sony, Philips, Toshiba and Samsumg, none of which are American companies. It is truly amazing (and sad) how Americans simply cannot seem to see the anti-China propaganda for what it is.
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You would probably not want one as a fridge magnet. It would probably bend the front of your fridge as you pry it off.
If you ever have a hard drive go bad, you should get yourself a set of tiny torx drivers and disassemble it. You will find a pair of insanely strong magnets around the head positioning coil.
Watch your fingers, when those magnets take a notion to slam together they will pinch through your flesh.
note: the preceding should not be construed as instructions to bang your office mates computer up and down while operating in order to acquire a bad hard drive.
Uh, no. Like you said, they're aluminum. Non-ferrous, and non-magnetic.
Dublin,
I posted about a year or two ago a patent proposal that is similar to yours (but much better - a bit more complex, rewards innovative patents more than poor patents etc.)
I'll email a copy of it to you if you like (just email me at the address above...).
LetterRip
sorry there was supposed to be a smiley beside the much better so that you knew I was teasing... stupid post ate my tags...
LetterRip
- Crusadio
Look, this is pretty cut and dried:
1) Magnequench does in fact hold four patents on the manufacture of the type of magnets in question.
2) Our current patent laws correctly grant them a limited period in which they can profit from the sweat of thier brow by preventing others from simply copying thier invention. (BTW: if you're opposed to this sort of protection, prepare to go back to a pre-industrial revolution timescale for innovation.)
3) Magnequench obviously feels that it's pretty easy to prove that the devices in question really do infringe on its patents.
The only questionable aspect of this is suing the OEM end users rather than those actually infringing, although I suspect that's a practical matter since the infringers are likely in a foreign country where IP is not well-protected.
If the patents were actually violated, I'm all for Magnequench on this one, and I hope they win big. Compaq and HP are not actually responsible for the violations in question, but they have the only economic power that will make the violators sit up and take notice.
(BTW: More detail on my position on patents can be gained from a letter I wrote to LWN a while back.)
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
IANAL, but I think the offending company would still be liable if they are based or operate in the US. Those that operate entirely outside the country might not be subject to US patent law - but there is also some significant reciprocity in patent laws between nations that could produce liability under US law even if all infringing activity took place outside the US.
Most of this sort of thing is governed by the Paris Convention, the Patent Cooperation Treaty, the European Patent Office/European Patent Convention, and the Pan American Convention. (Source: Chapter 12 of David Pressman's excellent Nolo Press book, Patent it Yourself.)
If you really need to know this stuff, get a good book on it, or pay a patent attorney - it's rough terrain for some of us engineering types, and the penalty for doing it wrong can be severe, especially considering how much more expensive it is to seek overseas patents...
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
As elegant as this sounds, it's a feedback loop. Think about it... as more patents are issued, the term shortens, forcing companies to innovate faster (and potentially produce bullshit "innovations") to protect their profits, causing a shorter term, and so on. Eventually, you end up with patents that last about five hours.
First, you obviously didn't read down to the part where I said the lower bound of protection should be something that's still economically reasonable, like 3-5 years.)
Secondly, the system is somewhat self-correcting in that it will tend to prevent people from filing if they can't realize a return on their investment within the shorter time frame. (Why would a company spend $15,000 on a patent if it wasn't going to make back many, many times that much before it expired? Granted, this assumes markets are rational - generally but not always true.) Most likely, this would actually cut down on BS patents. There will be more incentive to file when the term is longer, less when it's shorter, unless the short term is still valuable because the innovation is in a fast-moving technology space, in which case that's OK, as it's still the result we want...
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
I didn't say innovation wouldn't happen, just that without the ability to exclusively profit from innovations (real ones, not the MS kind), the pace of innovation *will* slow to a crawl.
The only problem with the US patent system (which is far and away the best in the world, and a primary driver behind American technological leadership over the past couple of centuries) is that it is blind to the huge differences in economic timescales across disciplines. I think 17 years should be enough for anything (if it can't be capitalized on in that timeframe, it's not *ready* for a patent!) Areas where innovation is more rapid should have shorter terms. I'm all for software patents, but I don't think they should be valid for more than five years.
So here I present Dublin's simple but excellent patent reform proposal:
The length of patent terms can and should be self-regulating: Make the length of term for new patents in each patent category (mechanical device, electronic hardware, software, etc.) inversely proportional to the average number of patents issued in the previous two quarters. (Note: that's "issued", NOT "applied for" - this discourages artificial manipulation.) This would automatically produce shorter terms as patent activity heats up (with a quick response time), and then lengthen them again once the pace of innovation slows, matching the growth patterns of the associated industries. Also, it ensures that the IP behind innovations is more quickly available freely in fast-moving areas. This tends to prevent the formation of long-term dynasties unless there is real and continual innovation to back it. (We might expect to see more innovation like that of Dyson in the UK and other companies *really* pushing the state of the art under such a plan.) Interestingly, this could make patents (especialy early and really innovative ones, which will have longer terms) *more* valuable than they are today, while still making technologies more rapidly and readily available for society at large.
Reasonable upper and lower limits should apply to the patent terms: I'd argue for 17 years upper and 5 years lower (although I could perhaps be persuaded to consider 3 or 4 years as a lower bound in extraordinary circumstances - nothing shorter makes any economic sense.)
This relatively simple and straightforward change would fix the aspect of the patent system that most vexes its foes, while still retaining all the best features of a system that has proven its inestimable value over the past two centuries. In other words, it only fixes what's broken, which is a very good thing. I can envision no alternative type of patent reform that has such advantages for the inventors, for the creation of vibrant markets, and can ensure that a proper balance is struck between protecting the innovator and freeing the innovation for the use of all in a reasonable timeframe.
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
Well Im sorry to field this issue, but the fileings do seem to be in order.
In the current situation, I think some hard discussions are in order.
--
(1) is the reason. They are likely to be collectible even if the direct defendants go out of business or are not. Also, there may be a better claim for wider damages against the larger companies, based on the overall cost of their products.
In patent infringement cases, it simply doesn't matter whether they knew or should have known their conduct was infringing. Period. It is infringement simply to make, use, sell, offer to sell or import into the country any infringing article of manufacture. Strict liability, no state of mind required.
The patent act provides that you can collect up to six (6) years of past patent infringement damages.
Interestingly, the U.S. was the "China" of its day when the country was first founded (with a little more freedom for its citizens, of course). Cheap manufacturing, a lack of regard for copyrights and patents from other countries. Plus, the U.S. defaulted on its debts quie a bit.
This is a wildly simplistic and misleading remark. Indeed, America's commitment to intellectual property protection is deep and longstanding.
Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution provides for a Copyright and Patent Act, and recognizing the importance of invention to the health of the new nation, the early Congresses made the enabling laws a key priority. That wasn't the earliest provisions either. Many (I don't know if it was all) of the states of the confederation each had patent systems and there were copyright-like protections available for works of authorship.
As to our being the "China" of the world, that's just wildly misleading. NO NATION AT THAT TIME gave broad reciprocity to the intellectual property laws of another. That sort of multi-nationalism didn't happen until the modern era, with the Paris and Berne conventions, and various other multilateral and bilateral trade agreements. Foreign nationals were permitted to obtain patents in some nation's patent systems, albeit with some prejudice and disadvantage. (There were some bilateral IP agreements dating back to the 18th century, but they were sparse and narrowly circumscribed, so I am informed.)
For the United States, it is true we didn't enforce English letters patent issued by King George and his predecessors. Guess what? We also stopped enforcing the tea tax acts and other British decrees and laws at that same time! You see, we just beat them in a war and became sovereign entities. We got to make up our own laws, just as they did.
After we resolved to replace the confederation to become one United States, we continued that practice. Guess what? They didn't enforce American patents either. Hey, were they China too?
No nation does.
Even given the broad multilateralism, you must apply for and receive a patent in each individual nation in which you would like to enforce a patent. The Patent Cooperation Treaty merely facilitates the process by assuring you a priority date based on your domestic filing for later-filed international applications.
Thus, I suppose, if we adopt the original poster's criteria, we might say that the US is still the China of the modern age, since we still do not enforce a single foreign patent. (On the other hand, a vast number of U.S. patents are regularly issued to foreign nationals, and we enoforce every one of those to the extent they are valid, just as we did way back in the 18th century.)
The argument, however rhetorically powerful it may seem, fails because it contains a logical fallacy. The negation of a straw man does not prove the validity of another standard.
That dullard noninventions should be patented is an undeniable truth. So what? That is a straw man proposed by no one. However, this does not mean that a spark of genius is required. This is his fallacy.
Moreover, spark of genius is clearly not the standard. It suffices merely that differences between the claimed invention and the prior art would not have been obvious to a person of ordinary skill. And both the Congress and the Supreme Court has set that forth clear as glass. See 35 U.S.C. s. 103.
Indeed, more than thirty years before the excerpt proffered by the previous writer was penned, the Supreme Court established the obviousness standard that the modern statute now codifies. Hotchkiss v. Greenwood, 52 U.S. 248 (1851)("more ingenuity and skill . . . were required . . . than were possessed by an ordinary mechanic acquainted with the business").
If this standard, which has been in place for most of the past 200 years (there was a short-lived dalliance with a "flash of brilliance" standard, which was later repudiated), constitutes the "decline of our civilization," then we should embrace such decline, and keep it going for so long as we are able.
It was never the object of those laws to grant a monopoly for every trifling device, every shadow of a shade of an idea, which would naturally and spontaneously occur to any skilled mechanic or operator in the ordinary progress of manufactures.
While the citation and volume reference is incorrect ("Atlantio," not "Atlantic"), the quote certainly is. No defender of the patent system would agree that patents should be issued to an invention that "would naturally and spontaneously occur to any skilled mechanic." This doesn't mean that any standard greater than unobviousness would be required. Unobviousness is the common law standard set years prior, later codified as 35 U.S.C. s. 103.
Finally, the author's largest logical leap was to tacitly assume that this particular patent isn't inventive. I invite the previous author to provide evidence of invalidating prior art that would make this particular form of permanent magnet obvious. The substance, if any, of that answer will clarify whether he was genuinely attempting to make a reasoned comment on the state of society, or was simply engaging in demagoguery.
Now you are running wildly afield of your original case. First, WIPO doesn't issue patents. The PCT grants no enforceable rights at all.
Second, I agree that not all nations issued patent to foreigners in the past. But the US (almost) always did so. Hence, the US was not china then, unless (using your standards) everyone was.
At any rate, none of this supports the historical revisionism of your initial post.
I don't understand the logic here. Compaq and HP have contracts with their suppliers that specify that the suplier must comply with any and all applicable patents. Why does the fact that Compaq and HP have money make them liable for the actions of others?
If they made, used, sold, offered for sale or imported an infringing apparatus, they are liable to the plaintiff. Their contracts with other persons might give them a cause of action for indemnity or contribution (if collectible, of course), but that doesn't get them off the hook -- they still owe the plaintiff the dough, and if their indemnitors go under, they are stuck holding the bag.
Yes, this means an indemnification and hold harmless provision from an uncollectible poor guy is virtually meaningless in practice -- at best it may give the poor guy some deterrence.
Them's the breaks.
Big companies like Compaq don't make the magnets themselves so how can they be responcable? They buy the components from other companies and then assemble them. So if there is a patent violation going on, shouldn't it be directed at the companies that are actually makeing these magnets and not paying the "in this case" Stupid patent fees?
I have to agree with alot of other people have said. Suing has just become another tool used byu businesses to gain income. Maybe they see it as R&D. Pour some money in, possibly get some big money out. I'm getting sick of having to pay for it at the retail store though. I think the USPO needs a serious over-hual and someone that can go in and say that a patent sucks, shouldn't have been granted and kill it.
Trying to be different, just like everyone else.
Microsoft patents Ones, Zeroes
... is to see several countries officially denouncing U.S. patents. i.e. "It's patented in the U.S.? Who gives a damn?"
------
Isn't it interesting how the /. crowd hates patents, but gets all up in arms whenever somebody mentions GPL violation, a much weaker 'licence'...
One of the things people have said about with copyright protection on hard drives and CD-ROM drives is that anything requiring a hardware up-grade would fail because why would you upgrade to that. If for some reason all CD-ROM drives were recalled, then wouldn't we all have to get new ones? Wouldn't that be the "best"(for the RIAA/MPAA, worst for us) time to release copy-protected CD-ROM/harddrives?
The following sentence is TRUE. The previous sentence is FALSE.
Actually Archibald Cox Jr. is their president and CEO. Probably just a coincidence, or maybe Mr. & Mrs. Cox thought very highly of the original... (Depending on how old this guy is.)
Oops, my mistake. He actually is the son of the special prosecutor. Here's a Google Search link
Can i take my hard drive/computer/video camera back to the manufacturer and demand they refund my money or replace it with something that complies with US law? Since they sold me a product that opens me to the possibility of a lawsuit, aren't they responsible for that? This is like Ford selling me a car with an engine that didn't pass emissions laws in Califrnia or something. Would there be a potential case for a class-action suit against manufacturers/importers of these products?
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
The only questionable aspect of this is suing the OEM end users rather than those actually infringing, although I suspect that's a practical matter since the infringers are likely in a foreign country where IP is not well-protected.
If I understand this correctly the party that infringed the US patent is the one that imported the product with the infringing tech into the US.
It's not infringing if it stays in a country where there isn't a patent on it.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
... I think the offending company would still be liable if they are based or operate in the US. Those that operate entirely outside the country might not be subject to US patent law - but there is also some significant reciprocity in patent laws between nations that could produce liability under US law even if all infringing activity took place outside the US.
I think you misunderstood me.
The point I'm trying to make is that the infringing activity DIDN'T happen outside of the US. The infringing activity was not to make the magnets in a country where the patent didn't apply. It was to BRING THEM IN to the US.
They're unpatented in the other country. They're patented in the US. So building them in the other country isn't illegal (except MAYBEE if it's done by a US corporation). But IMPORTING them into the US IS an infringement if the US patent is valid and nobody along the chain from the manufacturer through the importer licensed the patent.
See?
(But IANAL either. B-) )
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
<sarcasm>
So its all come down to this. Lawsuit announcements just about every other day from some company, who's likely losing money in the market, going after everyone they could all because they own the patents for some product. Sooner or later we'll all be able to fabricate some form of lawsuit in fact while I type write now, I am also drawing up a patent for typing into a monitor with the lights off.
I'm an innovator, and I hope my invention of typing into a terminal with the lights off while listening to music becomes a hit. In fact I'll promote it here on Slashdot. So to all the users here, make this a daily action of yours. Let it become a standard in life.
Well I figure within a year or two after I lose money with my other inventions, I can turn around and sue each and every one of you who has used my patented method of typing into your terminals. You honestly didn't think I would patent strictly to be innovative did you?
</sarcasm>
Linux.com spoof
Want Root?
I'm trying to figure out why people are so upset about this. I am going to assume (yea, its a big one), that this company and their team of scientists worked really hard to invent these tiny magnets that make cool things work. They patented the invention and then sold rights to various manufacturers to use these 'inventions' in their products. Along comes some other companies that are using the same 'inventions' and they aren't paying anything. This upsets the companies that did pay up and threatens the revenue stream of ?Magnaquench? so they sue to stop the infringement of their patents.
What exactly is wrong with this? Sure, some patents are stupid, but this one seams reasonable. Not every company is as evil as Rambus. There is nothing wrong, IMO, with protecting _your_ inventions by using the patent process.
What this really seems to be is the free beer mentality at work. Let someone else pay to research and invent something and I will use (steal) it and tell everyone just how cool technology is.
mark
It seems like the world's litigious companies are running out of things to sue for. They've started attacking basic physics. In a few years, someone is going to sue the entire world for unauthorized use of quarks, and after that there will be nothing left to claim as intellectual property.
----
---- I made the Kessel Run in under 11 parsecs.
I see why they are going after the manufacturers, Acer, HP, et al., but why are they going after the retail stores (Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.) They don't make any of the drives or camcorders. I would think that if the manufacturers were ordered to recall the devices, the retail stores would have to return the merchandise. No? Is it just a formality or am I missing something?
Damn. Thanks for posting that -- very interesting (and scary.)
I thought hey, now here's an idea whose time has come: Magnetic Patent Leather Suits. Shiny patent leather on the outside and magnetic strips on the inside- kind of like sealing yourself into a big leather ziplock, but easier to get at the goods inside. I hope Trinity will be wearing one of these in Matrix IV. Then, I realized, you idiot, read the fucking story before you post!
This story is disappointing. At first glance at the title, I thought "Wow, cool! Magnetic suits! What'll they think of next?"
But, noooo, it's just a stupid lawsuit...
Except that would mean that their case is baseless as they could only sue the manufacturer that was violating their patent unless they can prove the the purchasers knew they were getting the product which violated a patent. Which I think is doubtful. Obviously the blame can go so far, which shouldn't be touching everyone who once thought they may have known someone that may have a brother whos sister knew somebody that saw a magnet covered by their patent.
I don't think they have a chance for recalls, however, they may wind up getting a royalties package out of this, which is probably what they really want in the first place.
These kinds of patents tend to attract lots of lawsuits. Everyone seems to be a bit too charged up over this issue and are all out of alignment.
Someone you trust is one of us.
around the poles during the earth's orbit around the sun. please all of this patent crap is sickening.
You see a problem, I see potential. - Vincent 'Vinnie' Antonelli
It seems that they think they start suing and win money from all of these companies *just like RAMBUS.* Well, they must watch the news lately or they would know how companies like this are treated. ( ya know, like the vile parasites that they are) Anyway, it seems nowadays people want to sue for any reason they can get. Makes you wonder why they come out all of the sudden. You think they have a backing from RIAA? All of the CD/RW burners out there and what are they used for? Me thinks there could be something interesting in this after all.
.sig anyway.
Who needs a
I don't necessarily agree with who they're going after, I seriously doubt that Compaq et al. are manufacturing these magnets in secretive magnet plants hidden deep in the mountainside, in order to avoid the snooping eyes of Magnequench (hahaha, that name doesn't get old), but rather they're just buying magnets from a parts supplier. The reason, however, that Magnequench is going after these big names is simple -- press coverage. I seriously doubt that the equipment manufacturers will have to destroy devices already made, but what would probably happen in stead is that they or their parts suppliers would have to pay damages to Magnebeverage.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
You know, aside from the obvious "yet-another-patent"-ness of this, there actually are some interesting points to be made, that if anyone (!) had bothered to read the actual article(s), they might have picked up on.
For instance, "Magnequench" is not some Johnny-come-lately. They started as a division of GE back in the mid-'80s. The magnet technology was originally discovered in 1982, and they've had a production plant in operation since 1986. They have physical plants in both the US and China. They actually produce the products that they are suing over, as opposed to a lot of the business-method parasites usually discussed in these forums.
And incidentally, in 1995 the whole shebang was acquired by a Chinese holding company. Yes, a Chinese company suddenly has the potential to drastically affect a large portion of the American computer-manufacturing market. Does anyone think *that* might have interesting repurcussions worth discussing?
And FYI, here is the link to Magnequench's patent guide, which actually lists all of their patents (see especially 5172751), including their so-called philosophy, in case anyone feels like doing more than just barking today.
Neither am I, but I do know the difference between trademark law and patent law. A patent holder does not Not NOT need to defend it in order to maintain it. They can choose to enforce it selectively, at a late date, or otherwise, any time in the duration of the patent.
The parent post is a good candidate for -1: Misinformative moderation.
And they just noticed that companies are using these types of magnets 20 fscking years later?!? IA Most Definitely NAL, but don't you have to defend your intellectual property rights in order to retain them? Even if this claim was valid, they've acted in bad faith by waiting for this type of magnet to saturate the market for 20 years before trying to enforce their patents.
The new new economy apparently consists of companies that use lawsuits as their primary source of income.
-- Sent from a computer.
It's sad that someone who gained so much credit for getting fired by Nixon for prosecuting Watergate should end up as an Intellectual Property whore.
Ed Craig "Who cares what you think?" George W. Bush, 4th of July 2001
They didn't patent magnets. They patented a specific type of magnet that didn't exist before they worked to create it. These magnets are not the type that you stick things to the fridge with. they have a specific chemical makeup that much research was put into creating. Now I do agree that it was really not nice of them to wait 20 years for everyone to start using them, and then active the lawers, but I DO believe that this patent is an honest one.\ =\=\=\
=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=
Seeing as how Magnaquench is owned by Beijing San Huan New Material High-tech, Inc. and China National Non-Ferrous Metals Import & Export Corporation, I would say yes; China will respect this patent.
Insanity is the last line of defence for the master diplomat. But you have to lay the groundwork early.
Magnaquench and Sumitomo have cross liscensed their patents, they both hold rights to the process.
Insanity is the last line of defence for the master diplomat. But you have to lay the groundwork early.
Perhaps someone should devise a way to make these magnets to exhbit a special pattern of magnetic fields (even better if each magnet has a unique pattern) - a kind of magnetic field watermarking, if you will (like the SDMI sort). Then whenever they see magnets then can use some kind of magnetic watermark detector to see if it's Magnequench magnet! That should help them make sure that people are using genuine Magnequench magnet. I'll bet the watermarking will be as effective as SDMI's music watermarking scheme!
Right, you can't prove a negative. The person who can prove the positive in this case has the burden.
1) The Plaintiff has said he can prove that the magnets in question infringe the claims of his patent.
2) Having bought a magnet from a LICENSED source is a DEFENSE to patent infringement. Once the Plaintiff has proved the magnets infringe, it is up to the defendant to prove his defense. All he has to do is prove he bought from a licensed source.
Each party is proving a positive. Requiring the patent holder to prove THE ABSENCE OF A LICENSE is forcing the proving of a negative. As you point out that is illogical. That is why the law does not do it that way.
This guy just went around and patented anything he could think of and get a patent on... guess what? He made more than a billion dollars by suing companies and NEVER manufacturing anything.
l .jhtml&doc_id=202216
http://www.fortune.com/indexw.jhtml?channel=artco
~~~Please pass the salt, I hate unsalted MD5s
If you hate this little story, you will REALLY hate this other one.
l .jhtml&doc_id=202216
http://www.fortune.com/indexw.jhtml?channel=artco
The Patent King. He has a staggering 558 patents, costing companies around the world some $1.5 billion in licensing fees. But what did Jerome Lemelson actually invent?
~~~Please pass the salt, I hate unsalted MD5s
Right--and too bad about whatever was on the floor when the spill happened...
Normally these magnets do almost no work--they move things around a proton at a time. If they do macroscopic work, such as when some idiot brings a ferrous tool into the NMR room and lets it clang against the side of the magnet, the magnet "quenches", usually dumping coolant all over the floor.
You REALLY don't want this to happen, because after cleaning up the mess, you have to go through a godawful restart sequence.
So, the name "Magnequench" has the same disaster imagery as the "MaxiCrash Disk Drive Company", or "Microsoft".
(Disclaimer, I am not an NMR spectroscopist, but my wife used to be one.)
U.S. patents protect against importation of products produced outside the US by an infringing process. That's why MagneQuench is going after Best Buy and CompUSA. Those two are big enough they probably buy outside the US and import themselves.
This is all normal commercial litigation. No big deal.
Does anyone else find it ironic that they have "quench" in their name? The true patent company.
/*
*Not a Sermon, Just a Thought
*/
*Not a Sermon, Just a Thought
*/
The "pharmacuticals need patents" line is pretty weak, IMHO. Huge amounts of pharm research is done at government funded universities and teaching hospitals, by researchers getting most of their money from government grants or pre/post docs who need to do research and a little help from some major company that then turns around and patents it. Or what about comunity groups raising millions of dollars for "AIDS research" or "cancer research". Funny that I've never heard of one company saying "well, we recieved so much government, comunity and pure research university support to bring about this advance/drug/product that we're gonna just release it directly into the public domain."
Personally, I'm all in support of a "public interest patent" opt in/out. If a company is producing soemthing that is considered such a public interest that their work is being underwritten at almost every level by government and charitable interests, they get a very limited patent that aims to put the drug/advance/product into general production/use as soon as possible to lower the end costs to the users. If they want it all to themselves with full patent rights, fine. Just do all the work in house. Build your own labs, hire all your own researchers completely, do all your own testing for FDA aproval, with no help from government grants, charitable funding, hospitals, universities, or what have you.
And we'll see whether removal of a lot of patent rights, or removal of outside support gives us "no pharmacutical research, amoung other things."
Removing my plus one cause this is way off topic.
Kahuna Burger
...will work for Chick tracts...
The USPTO.gov server seems a bit slow today, so here are the patents from Delphion: 4496395 (a method of tempering magnets), 4851058 (material composition), 4802931 (another material composition), 5411608 (yet another composition), 4902361 (even more composition), and especially 5172751 (more tempering). As usual, look at the first few claims to get a general idea of the scope of the patent.
(Who's Dennis?)Will I retire or break 10K?
If you ever have a hard drive go bad, you should get yourself a set of tiny torx drivers and disassemble it. You will find a pair of insanely strong magnets around the head positioning coil.
Watch your fingers, when those magnets take a notion to slam together they will pinch through your flesh.
These magnets are also quite brittle - they will break if struck (particularly with another magnet.) Also, don't even think about putting these magnets near a CRT, credit cards, or disks...
The aluminium rings that separate the disk platters are also worth salvaging. For instance, with a suitable diameter pipe, coil and battery these would make ideal "jumping rings."
'nough said
How the hell are they going to do that? I'd like to see that boondoggle.
Compaq: "Uh, we lost a lawsuit and now you have to send back the computer you just bought so we can destroy it"
Me: "hello? you're breaking up, did you say computer? Send back? I, uh, sold it on ebay and shipped it to east timor. Sorry"
Is it me or are companies getting more stupid by the minute? There is no way these guys are going to win in court. Obviously they're not a very good or big company otherwise they wouldn't be sueing, and even more so I'm sure prior art on this can be found.. and since the prior art is being used by places such as Compaq and HP, it'll actually be brought to attention.. What is it with companies these days? Getting ahead with patents and laws is just low.. I'd like to see their business plan, I'd bet there is actually no real business tactic in it other than sueing companies for infringing on patents.. These companies rank with domain reselling companies in the "Claim legal rights to things someone else should have then sue or license out the ass for such rights"
..There's a-dooin's a-transpirin'
This is not just another story about someone with a bogus patent. This suit is frivolous before you even consider the validity of the patents. The company is going after the big names, when it's the suppliers who are responsible for IP compliance. This sounds like either corporate greed or legal laziness. Remember, lawyers don't sue people, plaintiffs sue people. Someone is going after the deep pockets, rather than the source of the problem.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
"Magnequench asks the court for past damages measured by no less than a reasonable royalty, treble damages, a recall of all existing products of the defendants that infringe and the destruction or reconfiguration to non-infringing embodiments of all infringing products."
Why stop there? Clearly, the court should give them their first born, keys to the car, flowers once in a while...
With Sony, Circuit City and Philips in the list of defendants, they aren't exactly going for companies renowned for employing small law departments either. You know, with the inventors of SCMS and DIVX (the dead one) being attacked its difficult to know who to root for.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
"Yes, I *would* rather have my head in the sand"
See how this story is helpfully filed in a section called 'Patents'? Now you know what to turn off in your preferences. I agree that this is the same old story with new names, but these names are pretty damn big ones. When someone announces they are trying to take Sony, Philips and Toshiba for all they can get then thats gutsy. Or stupid, I can't decide which.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
However, your conclusion is ironic in light of American history. If there is a single belief that unites Americans across the sapce of the continent and through 4 centuries of existence, it is the belief that the rest of the world is going to "hell in a handbasket." if they don't do something about it. This both a source of American society's penchant for renewal and the American sense of superiority that the rest of the world so resents.
I would like to exhibit Cotton Mather, an influential man in his day, who loved to preach about how the country was falling appart adn vigourous action was call for immediately to save the "city on the hill" -- right up until the time he led the Salem Witch trials.
So keep up the pessimism -- it's patriotic! (oh - and I agree with you that the patent system has run amuck and is violating it founding principles)
"one treats others with courtesy not because they are gentlemen or gentlewomen, but because you are" --G. Henrichs
Yes, I have the patent on that, but I've released it under the GPL (General Pulmonary License).
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
...and I can't find shoes that go with magnetic patent suits.
[Connection closed by foreign host]
These defendants didn't go out and start MAKING Nd-Fe-B magnets, did they?? Fuck no! They PURCHASED them from some source to use in their electronics manufacturing. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't they already PAID someone (a components vendor) for these magnets, and it is the responsibility of the vendor(s) who supplied the component magnets to make sure the MANUFACTURER OF THE MAGNETS is in compliance with the appropriate patents? If someone were to patent a novel yet simple component (a small motor, for example), and then I use that component to construct something entirely different, but I purchased all my little components (i.e. little motors) from the original manufacturer then hasn't the original manufacturer/creator BEEN compensated adequately already?
Where does it say "When you purchase the MicroMiniSpinMaster 3000 motor, you agree not to use it in the manufacture of anything without providing royalties to Itsy Bitsy Motor Corp. under penalty of law."? What the fuck good is a magnet by itself? It MUST be used to make something more complex and more useful. This is utter bullshit, and I hope the courts see through this obvious attempt at ass-raping the electronics purchaser (you and me) by making us pay higher prices since if the defendants lose, they'll just raise prices to offset their loss.
There are two major products that come out of Berkel
Could we quit the knee-jerk rhetoric here? Every time someone gets a little too close to making an interesting point, people have to insert their personal bit of ideological rhetoric, and it's gotten to the point where you can predict a full 90% of the posts. Let's look at what he said:
Yes, a Chinese company suddenly has the potential to drastically affect a large portion of the American computer-manufacturing market. Does anyone think *that* might have interesting repurcussions worth discussing?
Did he say "Chinese bad, Americans good"? No. You could claim he implied it, especially if you're overly sensitive. It IS an interesting point-- in today's interconnected economy, is it possible that politicians will come to view economic control as a weapon against other countries? And China's a good example, because it has shown a lack of restraint when it comes to controlling and/or nationalizing businesses on its soil. Additionally, both America and China currently have conservative leaders in power, who will tend to play a lot more hard-line brinkmanship than other administrations might.
To deny that the U.S. and China may come into conflict, and that economic weapons could be used, and that it could have an effect on the lives of people in the U.S. and China, and everywhere else-- to deny that possibility is ridiculous. Just as it would be ridiculous to automatically side with either country every time a conflict pops up, or to deny that there's a lot of propaganda flying about on both sides (or, finally, to ignore the fact that it's much easier and more efficient to distribute said propaganda with a state-run media).
Now, is that the case here? No, it's not. As you pointed out, "the list of defendants includes Sony, Philips, Toshiba and Samsumg". Additionally, there's no obvious reason for either country to escalate, nor is there any obvious control being exerted by the Chinese government over either of the involved companies. No, it seems quite obvious that in this case, they're simply doing what corporations do-- sue people to make more money.
"Our primary focus is to get these companies to go back to their suppliers - and in some cases their supplier's suppliers - to make sure they are using our materials," said Jeff Day, senior vice president of marketing and sales for Magnequench.
It looks like Magnequench is following Microsoft's lead and, rather than presenting proof that there is violation and suing based on that, demanding the company shows proof that it isn't violating the patents.
This is a bad thing, people, and when Virginia Beach caved in to Microsoft's demands based on assumed guilt rather proof of wrongdoing, it set a precedent because a government body accepted this sort of demand.
In Logic, you generally can't prove negatives, which is why courts say "Not guilty" [of the charges levelled] rather than "Innocent" [and didn't do a damned thing].
OK, so this is /. and here you can prove that MS on your system will have negative results, but some of you know what I mean.
Rather than bitching and moaning, Run for some branch of the government (legislative or executive) to become a part of the solution. It can only be changed from within. Run for office. Listen to some Jello Biafra mp3s or <gasp!> buy his spoken-word CDs (like I Blow Minds) for inspiration. Or go to law school and deal with the judicial side. Learn how to write an Amicus [hint: no l337 sP3LLiNg, no "dude", passable grammar, etc.]. Just quit whining!
This article from Fortune gives some great insight into the practice of a company that is nothing more than a patent hound, sniffing out and litigating patents as a strategy for generating income instead of using the patent system as it was intended.
This magnet company might be ligitimately defending unique developments, but it might also be using the same Lemelson techniques to snare other companies and extract undue license fees.
So, these magnets were invented in 1982. It only takes almost 20 years to decide to sue people? Come on... If this was a legit issue, why would they not have sued long ago?
I think there should be some sort of time limit on patent suits. If something is patented, the patent owner should have a set amount of time to sue potential infringers once the infringing product is on the market. If the patent owner delays suits beyond that time limit (like letting everyone saturate the market with infringing products and then sue for back-license dues) then the suit should have strict limitations of what it can ask for, in order to prevent "tricking" other companies into later owing gobs of money to the previously non-threatening patent holder.
Let's patent "being a monopoly" and sue Microsoft. And the RIAA and MPAA while we're at it. And Rambus. And these guys. And British Telecom. Anyone who is a little too control-hungry.
Men believe what they want. - Caesar
Magnaquench, I am sure, expended a lot of time and effort creating these things. Their legally obtained and perfectly valid patents are still in force, and won't expire for a few more years. They're legally, and I would say ethically, entitled to compensation for the world's use of their stuff. Should they just give it away>
Well, the last line of the Yahoo article is: "The company, which is privately held, supplies magnets for automotive, electronic, industry and household uses." Looks like they might be making fridge magnets. I just hope theyt aren't the ones that look like a computer and say "You've got mail!" when you press on them.
--You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
Actually, yes. The metal content in a $20 will make it stick to a really strong magnet.
It seems you can mail order them. I'm putting in a large order at the moment, as these look too good to pass up. Their claims are indeed plausible, and impressive, and I have a number of uses for these little .25" disks. Some of which involve ordering some of their cups... I think I can manage washers on my own, but their prices are reasonable, so I might just grab those while I'm at it... and I'm afraid to start looking at other stuff on that site... I could indeed see myself spending thousands...
-- Still waiting for the Nike endorsement
Game: Player 'Donald J Trump' now has AI skill level 'experimental'.
Yeah, that would make sense. That wasn't the first thing I though of, obviously. (And I'm assuming that you're not actually trolling with this one, 'cause that post accidentally made sense if you were. :)
In that context, I'd guess the "recall and/or destroy" that everyone went "huh?" about was likely just in there to get attention. Eh?
Man, did we have a ton of fun waving those around the CRTs at Best Buy...
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
In fact, the first workable steam engine (certainly the first that could have supported the Industrial Revolution) was patented by James Watt on 25th April 1769, receiving patent number 913 just to prove it.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
Newtonian physics would never have been patentable in any day or age because it is an idea, not a device. So that leaves you with gunpowder, the arch and the wheel. Not a lot to show for the five thousand years of the pre-patent era, huh?
-- the most controversial site on the Web
Well, the explanation is that everyone in the funky world does in fact realise it's under patent. It's just that some suppliers have been engaging in "magnet piracy", selling on more Magnequench magnets than they have paid a royalty on. Sony, Cisco et al have been brought into the suit because 1) they have deep pockets 2) It's arguable that they knew, or should have known, what was going on, which makes them co-conspirators and 3) they are likely to force the real offenders to settle out of court. It's fairly standard legal tactics.
Just another small battalion in the war against slashdot cluelessness.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
I love how the Slashdot community rallies around the "protecting patents is bad" standard. This isn't a patent on some obvious idea, like one-click shopping or breathing, it's a patent on a unique product/process this company developed. And it's had a significant effect on the world of electronics. They've approached the companies in question and warned them, and they were rebuffed. If Phillips and Samsung don't want to pay for the right to use a patented material, then they should come up with their own, not steal someone else's.
What I do find interesting is that companies like Best Buy and Circuit City are being sued, since as far as I knew, they were distributors, not producers. Sure, they may put together their own systems, but they don't manufacture the parts. Even the arguement of "they're selling stolen goods" falls flat to my ears.
- In hell, treason is the work of angels.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
I am going to patent that as a proprietary business method.
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
One word...Xerox.
When everyone's doing it, it's already too late. The mob rules.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
Remember those little cardboard things you probably had as a kid that had a piece of plastic covering a drawing of a face, and you had to use a magentized pen to draw hair on the face with little bits of metal? That's your prior art. If the magnet company doesn't like that, I'll make the picture like their president, with little iron devil horns and a moustach with handlebars.
Mas vale cholo, que mal acompañado.
...looks like a bit of a sticking point to me.
Did anybody look at the list of companies being sued? It includes BestBuy and CompUSA. Somebody flame me if I'm wrong but AFAIK these companies don't manufacture products. Are they responible for disassembling and product they carry and looking for patent infringement? Do you really think some Sony sales rep. went to these retailer and said "Hey, we'll give you a good deal on these DVDs since they're using stolen technology that we're not paying for."
. . .
. . .
This whole patent thing is really getting out of hand. It seems as if the patenting really serves no good purpose anymore.
When crooked companies go after other companies like this there is tons of litigation and, of course, the lawyers come out winning big. Why can't these small-time companies go make their money the hard way...?
When companies like Compaq or HP come under fire and loose a lot of money, where will that loss of money be translated to? That's right, the consumer. Prices will rise due to account for their loss.
I wouldn't be surprised if there is someone out there that has a patent on a breathing mechanism. They'll probably be suing God and every living breathing thing for all their worth...
"Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
A sample quote:
Supplier contracts (in fact, virtually every kind of contract) normally include indemnification language in which the upstream party agrees to bear the cost of any patent, copyright, or other infrigements. If you were buying 5,000 disk drives, you'd be sure your sales contract included similar language.
So the big-name manufacturers named in the suit will no doubt just whip out their contracts, and show that their suppliers are at fault. There's no way that the plaintiff could have known about the details of those private contracts (and of course, there's always the chance that some purchasing manager or house counsel screwed the pooch, and failed to include the right protections in those contracts, in which case there will be red faces and settlements). The way for the patentholder to find out that H-P *isn't* liable is to include them in the suit, and thereby learn what's in their (private) contracts.
JMHO and IAMAL but this is how I believe it all works.
-- We all have enough strength to endure the misfortunes of other people. La Rochefoucauld
Sorry for bringing up the "all your are mine" thing, thought that it was funny. 2 thoughts about this article and the comments; 1) People complain about these people trying to "patent magnetism" but actually they are only trying to patent a chemical FORMULA for a magnetic material that they developed. 2) More than likely the magnets that they are complaining about were manufactured in China or some other country that has no problem with ripping off American ideas and trying to screw our economy. Their attitude can be summed up in Pres. Jiang Zhamin's (spelling?) recent comment that "America has a monopoly on technology...." Well, good! it shows what happens when you don't arrest the intellectuals in your country that don't agree with your politics, or "enslave" the ones that do!!!!! S.
"Laws are like sausages, it is best not to see them being made" Otto Von Bismarck
If the manufacturers had known about their infringement, they could have pursued an alternative technology a long time ago. It's not as if the "magnequench" technology is the only technology that can ever be developed. It's just the best known solution at this time.
This is quite nice development. I understand that some company put enormous effort and money into research in chemistry (or whatever science). The thingh that makes me wonder is just how complicated research has to be to have patent on it. If my startup company discovers nifty solution how to make H2O (water) out of H2 (hydrogen) and O2 (oxygen), can we have patent on H2O? I suppose that patents COULD cover only process, but not the result. On the other hand, if the process is "discovered" through research, how can somebody be sued for plain research? All this patent stories *are* becoming more silly every day. Marko.
"If you can't come up with innovative products yourself, obtain a stupid patent and then try suing the pants off of respectable companies."
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Magnequench have a handy guide to their own patents. Bonus points awarded to those who post hyperlinks to US Patents 4496395, 4851058, 4802931, 5411608, 4902361, etc.
Magnequench! Leading innovation in Nd-Fe-B magnets, because only we own the license to innovate!
Does my bum look big in this?
My father-in-law used to work at Magnaquench's plant in Anderson. He has a couple of magnets about the size of a dime and a quarter inch thick. I was playing with them one day and pinched my fingers pretty good. They were also good "stud finders" you could hold the magnets a good inch or two away from the wall and let go and as they were falling if there was a nail in the wall it would stick to it.
I'm sick of reading how company X managed to hoodwink the USTPO and get a patent on "tires, rubber".
Oddly enough, Goodyear's patent on rubber didn't do him any good. He spent many years and all his money (and family and friend's money) developing vulcanized rubber, and then didn't make dime one from the people that simply stole the idea and used it. (The Goodyear company has no relationship to him. The owners just liked the name and stole that too.)
Patents in general are a good idea. We just have to get them to stop issuing bloody stupid patents.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
As far as I'm concerned, if the patent claims are not obvious (I am not saying they are or aren't) then there is no reason to bitch and moan unless you really think you want to go back to a system where there are no patents (and hence where everything is kept secret). But expect to see higher prices and less innovation as companies are forced to recoup the costs of their investments in other ways. Expect to see no pharmaceutical research, among other things
The only valid issue I see raised here is whether or not the company had an obligation to enforce these patents earlier, i.e. whether or not their claim is invalidated by not protecting them. As with probably everyone before me, IANAL, but I seem to recall that a company need not enforce its patents for the patents to continue to remain valid, and that this is the basis for so-called defensive patents (someone correct me if I am wrong). Now whether or not they should be able to claim past damages during the period in which they did not enforce is another issue.
But it so tiring to see the same knee-jerk responses that are so ill-thought out.
It's called the "We saw a widely used idea that wasn't yet patented which we didn't make and snapped it up before anyone else thought to snooker the USPTO in that specific way before us" business model.
That is to say, I'm willing to suggest that the reason no one acted like it was patented was that until recently it was NOT.
All your prior art are belong to us!
-Kasreyn
Kasreyn: Cheerfully playing the part of Devil's Advocate to hairtrigger
Magnequench employs about 300 people at its headquarters in Anderson, Ind., and about 1,500 worldwide. It has annual revenues of more than $250 million.
Ummm, HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAAA! I'm sorry Archie, but your little corporation is the proverbial fart in the windstorm to Compaq and HP. I can't imagine them being able to win the sort of draconian restitutions they're asking for.
This is just another case of "little company sees greedy lawsuits as more profitable business model than honest work". And the customers get to shoulder the costs.
-Kasreyn
Kasreyn: Cheerfully playing the part of Devil's Advocate to hairtrigger
My .02,
My .02,
zencode
iactivist.org/jason
I'm disappointed. After hours and hours, to my knowledge, no one has played with the puns. Is Compaq a "patent suit magnet" because they make lots of money with technology?
Sheesh.
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
I think you have hit the nail on the head. People who rush out and do an intellectual-property land-grab (whether its for technology they invented, then allowed to be come widespread, then jumped on people's shit about, like this, or otherwise) believe that they are entitled to making a profit.
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
Correct. The patent expiration is 20 years. This makes a lot of sense, considering their patent will run out next year. The suits probably noticed this, and figured this was their last chance to milk some profit out of the patents.
- Dan I.
Magnequench (what a name - nearly as lame as Traf-O-Data ;) has a guide to their patents in pdf here.
It says they have most of them till around 2007 in the States in a bit earlier in Europe and Japan. Guess they wanna max their profits before it's expire time. BTW, the company should be listed as MQI in the Hong Kong stock exchange, but I can't find it anywhere.
-Kraft
-Kraft
Live and let live
"It is truly amazing (and sad) how Americans simply cannot seem to see the anti-China propaganda for what it is. "
Really? Then I guess those thousands of students protesting in favor of DEMOCRACY that were shown being rolled over by ChiCom tanks in 1989 deserved what they were getting, huh? Masterful fake camera work by all those American news media companies, NBC, CBS, CNN, ABC, who were SO always biased towards President George H.W. Bush they created that fakery so as to promote his "Anti Chinese Propoganda".
I guess it's a Big Lie that Mao caused the death of millions in the "Great Leap Forward", right?
I suppose it's also a Big Lie that China forces millions of women to have FORCED abortions, against their will. I suppose it's another Big Lie that China arrests and imprisons people who dare ever speak out against their tyrannical, autocratic, anti-freedom MURDEROUS government?
And, of course, China would NEVER opress people because of their religion. Why no, those Falun Gong who are being murdered by the hundreds deserved what they got.
I'm sorry, but The US Patent Office ought to out of hand thow out a patent held by a FOREIGN government hostile to American Citizens. No business of ANY substance or size is totally privately owned in China, one of the most opressive anti-property, anti-freedom governments. China already has comitted an act of WAR against this country by attacking and forcing down a military aircraft flying well outside their borders, then holding the crew hostage.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
Fine. Then I'm going to get a Trademark on Jesus. You Mormons think your Jesus is so much better than my Jesus? Then I'm going to sue! From now on all variations of Jesus are to cease-and-desist. I also claim that since I own all your Jesus, I lay claim to all funds raised by the illegal use of my Jesus.
Stop praying over there! I own you!
Is this silly and insulting enough to get Congress & the Senate off their worthless asses yet? I am sick of these fraud lawsuits.
"Face it, a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality.
I wonder if these guys will be smart and not charge $100 million for a license.
It's the Post-dot.com economy's new motto:
"Making Money Through Litigation, Not Innovation"
___ alwaysBETA.com - Hey, you've got nothing better to do.
So, the magnets Magnequench claims are covered by their patents, may just as well be covered by the Sumitomo patent, and been exported from Japan (or Europe) to USA. Someones going to have a hard time deciding which patent those magnets are infringing.
'Magnequench asks the court for past damages measured by no less than a reasonable royalty, treble damages, a recall of all existing products of the defendants that infringe and the destruction or reconfiguration to non-infringing embodiments of all infringing products' yes, recall all existing compaq computers... this suit is next to extortion...
A: None. The Universe spins the bulb, and the Zen master merely stays out of the way.
Have you ever heard of "proof by contradiction"? It's generally easier to prove negatives in logic than to prove positives. Now I'm not saying the courts know about logic, but even they say "not guilty" when they find no proof of guilt. Hey, that's proving a negative. Haha.
Music speeds up when you yawn, but does not change pitch.
I can see the positive and the negative side of this.
I couldn't fail to disagree with you less.
I know this is off topic, but incorrect physics galls me. Jumping rings occur due to 'eddy currents'. B - field induces e.m.f, Al conducts, so a current is produced. Current produces second B - field, opposing initial B - field Unbalanced forces so accelleration skyward (greatly oversimplified)
Oh yea well I hold a patent on black matte finish. I want money from all PC manufacturers for something they stole from me. Hell this company ought to partner with the RAMBUS people. Whiners!
Got hosting
I think im gonna run down to the local patenting office and take out a patent on gravity. The sue everyone that sticks to the ground... and think of the money that could be made outa the strong and weak nuclear forces *ching ching*
um.... double sided tape?
Now I guess I'll have to pile all of my kid's art work on the floor next to the fridge.
would require that you root for the company that would set a precedent resulting in sane application of intellectual property laws. Or rather, you hope that the judge in the case case says to Magnequench, "ok morons, they are infringing and will have to pay, but you're not getting back the products that they already sold, that's why they're paying..." Or maybe we can just hope for the meteor to strike soon and put us out of our misery...
Greetings,
.5% of the profit they make (in violation of my patent, ofcourse). All corporations are subject to audit to insure compliance.
On the subject of patents, I thought you might all like to know that I have just received patent number 110011010100 entitled "making a profit." Since "making a profit" had never been patented, I should really be able to clean up on this one!
I've instructed my corporate lawyers to settle with every company who agrees to pay me
Of course this is a joke. Put it wouldn't have to be. The stupidity of the patent/sue process has reached an all time high in the last few years.
You know, I wonder if these people who decide to sue over "submarine" (terminology?) patents have any kind of life what so ever. There is a big beautiful world out there (even with certain people trying their best to muck it up), and I wonder if these money grubbers ever bother to go out and make friends, or are they too busy trying to sue everyone?
Hey, all of you kiddies that have that nice pretty black/blue box that stands on it's side.. thats right your PLAYSTATION 2. It has a DVD drive, does it not? Say bubye as the whitecoats come for you!