Is it spying or is it not?? Depends on what your definition of 'is' is.;-)
Let's say I do encrypt my video signal to keep one of these 'warviewers' from picking it up. Then someone else comes along and figures out how to decrypt it. (e.g. 802.11b) The argument would be (and is?), 'well you shouldn't have used wireless technology that can be cracked so easily--because I can crack the encryption it's OK for me to look at your information.' Does that mean that if I run an encrypted 802.11b network, that someone has the right to sit outside my house and collect personal information or access my network because there are tools that allow access to even encrypted 802.11b networks?? I guess it would be 'my fault' for not switching to 802.11a/g or something with WPA??
Let's extend your example. Suppose I have a 5 ft fence, but a neighbor who is 5' 11". Does that mean it's OK for him to look over my fence anytime he/she wants because the fence isn't high enough to obstruct his view? If I open the curtains on my window, does that mean someone has the right to come along and take pictures of what I'm doing inside because I'm not obstructing their view?
Wardriving/warviewing is nothing more than stealing a resource from somone else. So, because a geek or a nerd wants to do for 'technological' reasons, that makes it OK?? If the guys in the article thought they weren't harming anyone, then why are they so quick to run away when the police start to notice them? Would it be OK for a spammer to use an unencrypted or encrypted 802.11b wireless network to send spam? No! So, why is it OK for us to use those same kind of signals to spy on people?
I think we are just trying to rationalize spying on people by saying it's just harmless fun, and no one is being bothered. I doubt that any of the companies or citizens with wireless cameras put out signs on the outside of their buildings saying 'please use your wireless tools to tap into our signal'. It's one thing if someone wants to make a camera or wireless access point a public resource. That's why devices have IP addresses, and why some hotspots turn off encryption. The argument that it's not encrypted so it's OK to pick up the signal is pretty weak. It's akin to saying that it's OK to walk through your front door because you didn't lock it.
I'll say for the record that I'd approve of doing this so that private citizens can monitor surveillance cameras like the ones sprouting up all over NYC and London. However, there has to be some system to prevent abuse both from government/police and private citizens. As far as private or corporate wireless devices or cameras, I say they should remain off limits unless there's a good reason to suspect illegal activity.
As techies, can we at least we honest about what we're doing, and stop trying to rationalize everything?? I understand the temptation/interest in figuring things out and finding ways to pick up wireless signals, get into networks etc. Let's at least be honest about what we are doing, which is hacking/cracking. We have a long, honored tradition of doing this kind of thing. I'm sure we'll all done this at one time or another. I think some people are comparing warviewing to turning on your radio and listening to a free broadcast. Warviewing has more in common with walking into an unlocked radio station at night and playing a few CD's just because you can. Let's at least admit that we might be doing something slightly unethical.
OK, first don't compare New Zealand with Australia.;-) (Kiwi's lose their easy going nature and get really ticked off when you do that.) They are two completely different countries with different problems and policies. That's like comparing the US with Canada. We both speak English, we both are former colonies of England, but our govenments and society are vastly different.
The New Zealand government has known for years about the problem of emmigration and has tried to create incentives to keep many of the younger people with college degrees from leaving the country to work elsewhere. Eventually some come back but many do not. However, there is an active IT industry in New Zealand, and I've met and worked with programmers and system admins in their 20's and 30's who chose to stay and contribute to the New Zealand economy. New Zealand is still famous for having more sheep than people, but the governement knows that promoting only tourism, wool and the excellent local wine industry is not enough to maintain the economy.
I am not a Kiwi, just a US citizen who's been there twice, with another trip planned in a few months.
Ummm... you people realize that Slashdot is for websurfers, riiiiggghhhttt????;-)
From their website, the engine alone weighs 38 pounds, and the expected cost is only $6000-$7000! Compare this to a 6 ft shortboard at maybe 5-10 lbs or a 9 ft board at maybe 10-15 lbs, either board costing anywhere from $400-$1000. It's not going to grab the typical surfing crowd but probably could get the same group of folks who would buy Segways. This would probably be used by folks on lakes too small to get any consistent waves. Places like Wisconsin and Michigan do get rideable waves on Lake Michigan, but not every day. It seems ideal anyplace where you would already use a waterski.
The fact that you have to hold on to a strap/leash means the feel of one of these won't be entirely like a regular surfboard. A big part of the challenge and fun of surfing is learning how to balance properly. You still have to shift your weight to ride the jetboard, but if you are using the strap for balance that would certainly change the feel of the thing.
This would be tempting if it weren't so expensive. I'd much rather try one of those foil boards that "float" on air!!!
Re:ESR and Perens and some slashbot jackass
on
Back To SCO
·
· Score: 1
Please mod this as humorous!;-)
It's an obvious troll, but it gave me a laugh. Maybe you trolls should put your own stuff through a grammar and spell checker if you want to pass yourself off as a serious poster???!!!
I've bought a few distributions in the past, RedHat 5.x and 6.x, most recently SuSE 7.3 and 8.1. (Don't bother wasting your money...) I'm thinking about buying a copy of RedHat 9 when it comes out. I'm a shareholder in RedHat and want to support the company with my dollars.
However, I notice that despite the $150 you pay for a retail copy of Professional, you really don't get any support. If I remember correctly, 8.0 Pro came with 1 year of RHN, 9.0 comes with 1 or 2 months (!) of the same?? RedHat isn't the only company to do this. SuSE isn't much better, and they don't even allow ISO downloads.
Why do companies like RedHat punish their retail customers, when they still allow anyone with a broadband connection to download their ISO's? Why should I bother shelling out $150 for three or four CD's?
Anyone know what you get with the 9.0 RHN subscription? Do you download ISO's, or do they mail them out? I see they mention no documentation, so I'm assuming the software & updates are online only?
Does RedHat have a reasonably cheap RHN option for someone with 1-5 RedHat systems in a home network, or do you end up paying for each installation. Looks like 9.0 RHN will be about $60 per workstation. (I know I can update manually, but I'd rather pay RedHat the money if I'm getting something for it.)
I found his paper interesting for the most part. It's very helpful in giving new programmers an idea what to expect.
Is it just me, or does this guy seem to have a huge ego? I've worked with enough programmers to know there are good and bad ones, easy going and egotistical ones. He seems to have a pretty low opinion of "non-engineers", by which he means non-programmers as opposed to mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, etc.
My favorite section is "How to talk to non Engineers".
Non-engineers are smart, but not as grounded in creating technical things as
we are. We make things. They sell things and handle things and count things
and manage things, but they are not experts on making things.
They are not as good at working together on teams as engineers are (there
are not doubt exceptions.) Their social skills are generally as good as or bet-
ter than engineers in non-team environments, but their work does not always
demand that they practice the kind of intimate, precise communication and
careful subdivisions of tasks that we do. Their teams are more like groups.
Non-engineers may be too eager to please and they may be intimidated by
you. Just like us, they may say yes without really meaning it to please you or
because they are a little scared of you, and then not stand behind their words.
Non-programmers can understand technical things but they do not have
technical judgment. They do understand how technology works, but they cannot
understand why a certain approach would take three months and another one
three days.
It's obvious to me when an engineer has this attitude. They usually come across as cocky and condescending. I find that if you treat your coworkers with respect, and assume they have a clue, that your working relationship will be much better for doing it.
I have a B.S. degree in Comp. Sci. but work as a sysadmin now. Everyone knows that without sysadmins like me, everything would fall apart, and engineers would never get anything done. Ask me how many times I've had to fix an engineer's CVS repository because they didn't have a clue how it worked.;-)
I think engineers/programmers need to have more appreciation for their fellow technical workers. Maybe I'm just being sensitive, but last time I checked, my job required building things & fixing problems (complex server systems, and repairing many system level and code level problems). I also have to do job estimation with a good understanding of the technical merits of different approaches.
And, I hate to disappoint everyone.... but non-engineers are not eager to please or intimidated by you... They might just be too polite to laugh at you to your face when they see how big your ego is getting.;-P
The best engineers I worked with were extremely bright, did an excellent job, and were very good at getting along and working with everyone, whether engineer or sales rep. They were recognized by everyone, technical and not, as our best engineers. Everyone knew they were the core of our company. I would break my back to get those guys what they needed, because they treated me as an peer, and respected my own expertise.
The worst engineers I've dealt with had egos bigger than the buildings they worked in, and chips on their shoulders almost as big. Those were the type I stayed away from. They were also the type that insisted their ideas were right regardless of the facts.
The last jackass engineer/programmer I worked with insisted our company of 50+ people didn't need a corporate firewall "because we use Windows development systems, and Windows software is secure". And this guy was our most Senior Engineer, I am NOT making this up.
Well, thanks for letting me get that off my chest!!
It sounds like you've found something that you are satisfied with. I wish you the best of luck with your college program and your future career.
With that said, please don't suggest that a tech job does not involve helping people. Maybe it wasn't the right fit for you, but there are many of us in the sector that enjoy this work. It's not just about "mak[ing] money and playing with toys". I like the work I do as a senior sysadmin and formerly desktop guru. I've been in the industry for almost 10 years. All of my jobs involved face to face interaction with other company employees.
Sure there are times where I want to swear at someone, but there are many days where I feel a great sense of satisfaction. The problems I solve directly impact the job satisfaction of myself and others who are doing their own version of a dream job. I get a great deal of satisfaction out of knowing that I've helped someone and made their day just a little bit better. That comes not by fixing a computer, but by solving a problem, being professional and cheerful in the process, and maybe even sharing a joke or two.
We all have different ways of helping other people less fortunate than ourselves. Outside of work I contribute to many different charities. I get great satisfaction from helping people less fortunate, having grown up in pretty desperate circumstances myself.
I hope you will enjoy your new career. You will get a lot of satisfaction out of finishing your college degree. It does sound like high tech was not the right fit for you. Best wishes.
I'd be interested to hear how you're doing, and what advice you have for others interested in doing the same. Does your business partner also have technical experience or does he handle the day to day administration of getting clients, etc?
I see you are in Australia, but I'm sure most of your experiences would be relevant to those of us in other parts of the world.
I'll preface this by saying I have a lifetime subscription ($250) for my Tivo. Tivo ROCKS!
However, he didn't force the Tivo corporation to choose the business model they did. You can legally buy a Tivo and never activate it. Sure you don't get all the features, but there's nothing wrong about it.
I'll all for reasonable hacking. I think anyone should be able to hack their system to expand features or learn more about it. I've learned many of the things about my Tivo because other people published the results of their hacking.
If Tivo is worried about recovering their cost of production, then they should change to the Replay model and include the cost of the program guide in the cost of the recorder. As long as they stay with the current model then it's an open season for hacking, as far as I'm concerned.
In my opinion, this was a bad judgement call. All of us sysadmins come across data from time to time, whether that means legal documents, salary information, etc.
Part of our job is keeping this information confidential, regardless of how we feel about the information. If you must divulge information, it would be better to take the wife aside and let her know discreetly what you accidentally found out. Even better would be to say nothing, as this is strictly a personal matter.
Frankly, I might have fired you myself if you hadn't resigned. I imagine you resigned because you had divulged confidential information, not because the CEO's wife was having an affair???
So if GNU re-created all the standard Unix utilities, why is it not called Unix/GNU or BSD/GNU? Yes I know that GNU = "GNU's Not Unix".
Maybe we should give credit to everyone who worked on the FSF/GNU utilities. Who knows the history of how the utilities were written? I imagine that they were not all written by Richard Stallman himself, or were they?
I had a similar problem when I bought a house last year. I had a converted garage that I wired for ethernet, and even ran ethernet into the basement. However, I didn't want to install ethernet jacks in the house, as it's about 100 years old, and I didn't want the hassle.
I settled on using 802.11b wireless to communicate between the house and the office. I know all about the security problems (my address is....) but maybe the newer 802.11g or 802.11a might work for you.
I have some workbenches in the basement that are about 4-5 feet off the floor. I'm going to install a file server and leave it on one of these benches.
It's cold and damp down there in the winter. I don't know how well the equipment will take to the humidity. I guess I'll find out!
I don't work at Energy, but I would agree and recommend their products. Just built my first serious home stereo system a few months ago. Was very skeptical how well their small speakers could sound. I'm from the old school... don't speakers have to be big to sound good? Well I was quite impressed. Bought their 6 speaker surround sound system with subwoofer. I have it hooked up to a Sony surround sound receiver, Pioneer DVD changer, etc.
I'm in the process of building a home theater PC to take the place of my 300 DVD Pioneer changer. The little 12 character display is driving me crazy. In about a month I'll have all my music stored as MP3 files on my PC with digital audio going into the receiver....
Slashdot Mirror
Is it spying or is it not?? Depends on what your definition of 'is' is. ;-)
Let's say I do encrypt my video signal to keep one of these 'warviewers' from picking it up. Then someone else comes along and figures out how to decrypt it. (e.g. 802.11b) The argument would be (and is?), 'well you shouldn't have used wireless technology that can be cracked so easily--because I can crack the encryption it's OK for me to look at your information.' Does that mean that if I run an encrypted 802.11b network, that someone has the right to sit outside my house and collect personal information or access my network because there are tools that allow access to even encrypted 802.11b networks?? I guess it would be 'my fault' for not switching to 802.11a/g or something with WPA??
Let's extend your example. Suppose I have a 5 ft fence, but a neighbor who is 5' 11". Does that mean it's OK for him to look over my fence anytime he/she wants because the fence isn't high enough to obstruct his view? If I open the curtains on my window, does that mean someone has the right to come along and take pictures of what I'm doing inside because I'm not obstructing their view?
Wardriving/warviewing is nothing more than stealing a resource from somone else. So, because a geek or a nerd wants to do for 'technological' reasons, that makes it OK?? If the guys in the article thought they weren't harming anyone, then why are they so quick to run away when the police start to notice them? Would it be OK for a spammer to use an unencrypted or encrypted 802.11b wireless network to send spam? No! So, why is it OK for us to use those same kind of signals to spy on people?
I think we are just trying to rationalize spying on people by saying it's just harmless fun, and no one is being bothered. I doubt that any of the companies or citizens with wireless cameras put out signs on the outside of their buildings saying 'please use your wireless tools to tap into our signal'. It's one thing if someone wants to make a camera or wireless access point a public resource. That's why devices have IP addresses, and why some hotspots turn off encryption. The argument that it's not encrypted so it's OK to pick up the signal is pretty weak. It's akin to saying that it's OK to walk through your front door because you didn't lock it.
I'll say for the record that I'd approve of doing this so that private citizens can monitor surveillance cameras like the ones sprouting up all over NYC and London. However, there has to be some system to prevent abuse both from government/police and private citizens. As far as private or corporate wireless devices or cameras, I say they should remain off limits unless there's a good reason to suspect illegal activity.
As techies, can we at least we honest about what we're doing, and stop trying to rationalize everything?? I understand the temptation/interest in figuring things out and finding ways to pick up wireless signals, get into networks etc. Let's at least be honest about what we are doing, which is hacking/cracking. We have a long, honored tradition of doing this kind of thing. I'm sure we'll all done this at one time or another. I think some people are comparing warviewing to turning on your radio and listening to a free broadcast. Warviewing has more in common with walking into an unlocked radio station at night and playing a few CD's just because you can. Let's at least admit that we might be doing something slightly unethical.
Just my $0.02.....
--Mark
OK, first don't compare New Zealand with Australia. ;-) (Kiwi's lose their easy going nature and get really ticked off when you do that.) They are two completely different countries with different problems and policies. That's like comparing the US with Canada. We both speak English, we both are former colonies of England, but our govenments and society are vastly different.
The New Zealand government has known for years about the problem of emmigration and has tried to create incentives to keep many of the younger people with college degrees from leaving the country to work elsewhere. Eventually some come back but many do not. However, there is an active IT industry in New Zealand, and I've met and worked with programmers and system admins in their 20's and 30's who chose to stay and contribute to the New Zealand economy. New Zealand is still famous for having more sheep than people, but the governement knows that promoting only tourism, wool and the excellent local wine industry is not enough to maintain the economy.
I am not a Kiwi, just a US citizen who's been there twice, with another trip planned in a few months.
From their website, the engine alone weighs 38 pounds, and the expected cost is only $6000-$7000! Compare this to a 6 ft shortboard at maybe 5-10 lbs or a 9 ft board at maybe 10-15 lbs, either board costing anywhere from $400-$1000. It's not going to grab the typical surfing crowd but probably could get the same group of folks who would buy Segways. This would probably be used by folks on lakes too small to get any consistent waves. Places like Wisconsin and Michigan do get rideable waves on Lake Michigan, but not every day. It seems ideal anyplace where you would already use a waterski.
The fact that you have to hold on to a strap/leash means the feel of one of these won't be entirely like a regular surfboard. A big part of the challenge and fun of surfing is learning how to balance properly. You still have to shift your weight to ride the jetboard, but if you are using the strap for balance that would certainly change the feel of the thing.
This would be tempting if it weren't so expensive. I'd much rather try one of those foil boards that "float" on air!!!
It's an obvious troll, but it gave me a laugh. Maybe you trolls should put your own stuff through a grammar and spell checker if you want to pass yourself off as a serious poster???!!!
I've bought a few distributions in the past, RedHat 5.x and 6.x, most recently SuSE 7.3 and 8.1. (Don't bother wasting your money...) I'm thinking about buying a copy of RedHat 9 when it comes out. I'm a shareholder in RedHat and want to support the company with my dollars.
However, I notice that despite the $150 you pay for a retail copy of Professional, you really don't get any support. If I remember correctly, 8.0 Pro came with 1 year of RHN, 9.0 comes with 1 or 2 months (!) of the same?? RedHat isn't the only company to do this. SuSE isn't much better, and they don't even allow ISO downloads.
Why do companies like RedHat punish their retail customers, when they still allow anyone with a broadband connection to download their ISO's? Why should I bother shelling out $150 for three or four CD's?
Anyone know what you get with the 9.0 RHN subscription? Do you download ISO's, or do they mail them out? I see they mention no documentation, so I'm assuming the software & updates are online only?
Does RedHat have a reasonably cheap RHN option for someone with 1-5 RedHat systems in a home network, or do you end up paying for each installation. Looks like 9.0 RHN will be about $60 per workstation. (I know I can update manually, but I'd rather pay RedHat the money if I'm getting something for it.)
Flame suit on...
;-)
;-P
I found his paper interesting for the most part. It's very helpful in giving new programmers an idea what to expect.
Is it just me, or does this guy seem to have a huge ego? I've worked with enough programmers to know there are good and bad ones, easy going and egotistical ones. He seems to have a pretty low opinion of "non-engineers", by which he means non-programmers as opposed to mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, etc.
My favorite section is "How to talk to non Engineers".
Non-engineers are smart, but not as grounded in creating technical things as
we are. We make things. They sell things and handle things and count things
and manage things, but they are not experts on making things.
They are not as good at working together on teams as engineers are (there
are not doubt exceptions.) Their social skills are generally as good as or bet-
ter than engineers in non-team environments, but their work does not always
demand that they practice the kind of intimate, precise communication and
careful subdivisions of tasks that we do. Their teams are more like groups.
Non-engineers may be too eager to please and they may be intimidated by
you. Just like us, they may say yes without really meaning it to please you or
because they are a little scared of you, and then not stand behind their words.
Non-programmers can understand technical things but they do not have
technical judgment. They do understand how technology works, but they cannot
understand why a certain approach would take three months and another one
three days.
It's obvious to me when an engineer has this attitude. They usually come across as cocky and condescending. I find that if you treat your coworkers with respect, and assume they have a clue, that your working relationship will be much better for doing it.
I have a B.S. degree in Comp. Sci. but work as a sysadmin now. Everyone knows that without sysadmins like me, everything would fall apart, and engineers would never get anything done. Ask me how many times I've had to fix an engineer's CVS repository because they didn't have a clue how it worked.
I think engineers/programmers need to have more appreciation for their fellow technical workers. Maybe I'm just being sensitive, but last time I checked, my job required building things & fixing problems (complex server systems, and repairing many system level and code level problems). I also have to do job estimation with a good understanding of the technical merits of different approaches.
And, I hate to disappoint everyone.... but non-engineers are not eager to please or intimidated by you... They might just be too polite to laugh at you to your face when they see how big your ego is getting.
The best engineers I worked with were extremely bright, did an excellent job, and were very good at getting along and working with everyone, whether engineer or sales rep. They were recognized by everyone, technical and not, as our best engineers. Everyone knew they were the core of our company. I would break my back to get those guys what they needed, because they treated me as an peer, and respected my own expertise.
The worst engineers I've dealt with had egos bigger than the buildings they worked in, and chips on their shoulders almost as big. Those were the type I stayed away from. They were also the type that insisted their ideas were right regardless of the facts.
The last jackass engineer/programmer I worked with insisted our company of 50+ people didn't need a corporate firewall "because we use Windows development systems, and Windows software is secure". And this guy was our most Senior Engineer, I am NOT making this up.
Well, thanks for letting me get that off my chest!!
It sounds like you've found something that you are satisfied with. I wish you the best of luck with your college program and your future career.
With that said, please don't suggest that a tech job does not involve helping people. Maybe it wasn't the right fit for you, but there are many of us in the sector that enjoy this work. It's not just about "mak[ing] money and playing with toys". I like the work I do as a senior sysadmin and formerly desktop guru. I've been in the industry for almost 10 years. All of my jobs involved face to face interaction with other company employees.
Sure there are times where I want to swear at someone, but there are many days where I feel a great sense of satisfaction. The problems I solve directly impact the job satisfaction of myself and others who are doing their own version of a dream job. I get a great deal of satisfaction out of knowing that I've helped someone and made their day just a little bit better. That comes not by fixing a computer, but by solving a problem, being professional and cheerful in the process, and maybe even sharing a joke or two.
We all have different ways of helping other people less fortunate than ourselves. Outside of work I contribute to many different charities. I get great satisfaction from helping people less fortunate, having grown up in pretty desperate circumstances myself.
I hope you will enjoy your new career. You will get a lot of satisfaction out of finishing your college degree. It does sound like high tech was not the right fit for you. Best wishes.
I'd be interested to hear how you're doing, and what advice you have for others interested in doing the same. Does your business partner also have technical experience or does he handle the day to day administration of getting clients, etc?
I see you are in Australia, but I'm sure most of your experiences would be relevant to those of us in other parts of the world.
Thanks, and good luck!!
I'll preface this by saying I have a lifetime subscription ($250) for my Tivo. Tivo ROCKS!
However, he didn't force the Tivo corporation to choose the business model they did. You can legally buy a Tivo and never activate it. Sure you don't get all the features, but there's nothing wrong about it.
I'll all for reasonable hacking. I think anyone should be able to hack their system to expand features or learn more about it. I've learned many of the things about my Tivo because other people published the results of their hacking.
If Tivo is worried about recovering their cost of production, then they should change to the Replay model and include the cost of the program guide in the cost of the recorder. As long as they stay with the current model then it's an open season for hacking, as far as I'm concerned.
In my opinion, this was a bad judgement call. All of us sysadmins come across data from time to time, whether that means legal documents, salary information, etc.
Part of our job is keeping this information confidential, regardless of how we feel about the information. If you must divulge information, it would be better to take the wife aside and let her know discreetly what you accidentally found out. Even better would be to say nothing, as this is strictly a personal matter.
Frankly, I might have fired you myself if you hadn't resigned. I imagine you resigned because you had divulged confidential information, not because the CEO's wife was having an affair???
So if GNU re-created all the standard Unix utilities, why is it not called Unix/GNU or BSD/GNU? Yes I know that GNU = "GNU's Not Unix". Maybe we should give credit to everyone who worked on the FSF/GNU utilities. Who knows the history of how the utilities were written? I imagine that they were not all written by Richard Stallman himself, or were they?
I had a similar problem when I bought a house last year. I had a converted garage that I wired for ethernet, and even ran ethernet into the basement. However, I didn't want to install ethernet jacks in the house, as it's about 100 years old, and I didn't want the hassle.
I settled on using 802.11b wireless to communicate between the house and the office. I know all about the security problems (my address is....) but maybe the newer 802.11g or 802.11a might work for you.
I have some workbenches in the basement that are about 4-5 feet off the floor. I'm going to install a file server and leave it on one of these benches.
It's cold and damp down there in the winter. I don't know how well the equipment will take to the humidity. I guess I'll find out!
I don't work at Energy, but I would agree and recommend their products. Just built my first serious home stereo system a few months ago. Was very skeptical how well their small speakers could sound. I'm from the old school... don't speakers have to be big to sound good? Well I was quite impressed. Bought their 6 speaker surround sound system with subwoofer. I have it hooked up to a Sony surround sound receiver, Pioneer DVD changer, etc.
I'm in the process of building a home theater PC to take the place of my 300 DVD Pioneer changer. The little 12 character display is driving me crazy. In about a month I'll have all my music stored as MP3 files on my PC with digital audio going into the receiver....
--Mark