Interesting. I don't buy Sony's explaination either. Course you'll still need a 60Hz compatible TV to display an NTSC signal (even if it is an RGB one), although if your telly supports RGB it will almost certainly support 60hz. This applies to import games too, although you'd need to get round the copy protection to actually play an import ps2 game anyway.
I think the reaon for buying one of these is fairly obvious. If you're interested in programming games then the opportunity to code for a dedicated games machine is too good to miss.
Sony are trying to resurrect the "bedroom games coder", and if they can get talented people to learn THEIR architecture it could well benefit them. People cutting their teeth on this system will have a much better chance of a job in the industry, which will mean more games and so more licensing money for Sony.
They've done this before with the Net Yarouze (as mentioned in the article), and people did indeed use it to get into the games industry.
No it doesn't! You obviously haven't got a fully wired RGB compatible scart lead and are therefore missing out on optimal display quality. Are you using the composite lead that comes with the ps2? This works with dvd's but you don't get a nice crisp picture like with rgb (or svideo, slightly worse than rgb but still better than composite).
Basically every hardware interface is disabled, and you're not going to get much hard disk space using that whopping 8MB memory card
No, no, no. That is simply not true. As documented at this playstation community web site (set up to support ps2 linux). While the complete hardware specification is indeed not made available, the device drivers (with source code) allow access to the restricted i/o devices. So you WILL have access to the hard disk, although you won't be able to make cd/dvds that you can read on the ps2.
Also, while the i/o and sound subsystems are wrapped up in the RTE, by contrast the EE cpu, the vector units, the DMAC and the GS are not only fully open for you to play with, but their specs are provided in the proper system manuals (provided on disc) and libs tools and source code are provided to help you use them. Put another way, you have full access to the graphics and cpu side of ps2. This is great for anyone wanting to play with the ps2s awesome graphics power, and a real opportunity for anyone wanting to get into games development!
Over here in Europe our ps2s won't play dvd's properly through an RGB lead (basically similar to your component leads, i.e. the clearest best picture you can get), they come out green.
I hadn't realised until now how that was done, they must be using the same sync on green on/off functionality to restrict our playback.
When this was first discovered at launch a lot of people (myself included) were upset about this, if you want to play games at their best AND watch dvd's you have to keep switching leads. Sony claim they HAD to limit playback in this way (cos of the marcovision thing, I think), but most standalone dvd's over here, including ones manufactured by Sony DO let you play dvd's over an RGB lead.
Thankfully DVD Regionx from Datel enables dvd playback through rgb, as well as allowing discs from any region to be played.
My old athlon slotA 500 in an asus K7M motherboard with a geforce256 has the same problem. Random hangs on or just after the nvidia flash screen. I also get weird green artefacts at the top of the screen for a few seconds when starting x, even when it doesn't hang.
My first thought on seeing this article was that this must be related, but there shouldn't be any agp going on (afaik) at startup, so maybe this is a different problem. Only happens with the nvidia drivers though.
True enough, lack of games and high price tag had a lot to do with 3DO failing. I'm not comparing the xbox though, just pointing out that if they market it to sound like one of these failed boxes, gamers might see it like one and shy away from it.
You're damn right about the 3DO, it was cool. The panasonic controllers had headphone jacks too, top idea. Still reckon 3DO Need for Speed is one of the best racing games ever.
Ah, I remember M2, they turned it into a standalone unit for a bit, but that was never released either! You're right about console upgrades too. 32X and Sega CD anyone? Will be interesting to see if Sony can pull it off with their harddrive and broadband adator.
It just doesn't make sense for microsoft to release a new machine so soon! I pointed this out last time the "HomeStation" was discussed. It would lead to massive consumer confusion. Two very similar products from the same manufacturer would make it very hard to know which to buy. Why would you buy an xbox once homestation (which apparently does everything xbox does and more) is released anyway?
It's far more likely that once microsoft has got a good grounding in the games market it will start marketing xbox as this sort of all in one entertainment device. All it really needs is a bit of software and a larger (external perhaps) hard disk. They need to establish themselves with gamers first though, and past failures of "multimedia" devices (3DO, CDTV, CDi) mean that if microsoft had marketed the xbox like this to start with gamers would most likely turn their backs.
Perhaps not a hoax per say, more a misunderstanding.
Whilst this is undoubtedly cool to see the ultimate way to wath the shorts is of course on dvd. Where do I get them you ask? Well we all know Geri's game is on a bugs life but over here in Britain at least there are quite a few shorts on the toy story 1 and 2 box set. Not sure if this was a collectors edition or what but it comes with a third disc with all sorts of lovely goodies on it. Can't remember eactly which shorts are there but Tin Toy certainly is and I think Luxo is too
You should consider us poor PAL gamers, we don't appear to have any chance of seeing HDTV's any time soon and we only get 50Hz interlaced on normal teles so the full frame is only updated 25 times a second!
Interestingly, even though you sort of only get 30fps it's still worth game developers updating at 60 fps. In this case each field will be different. In standard television signals the image is only changed every frame so every two fields are two halves of the same image and you end up with 30fps. However a games console can change the image every field so even though it's an interlaced image you do get 60 updates per second.
This is part of the reason why the new generation of consoles look so much nicer than the last, they are powerful enough to complete the game loop 60 times every second instead of thirty and so everyhting is nice and smooth (in most games). This is extra good for us in Europe beacuse believe me, while 30fps games look shoddy, 25fps is even more jarring to the eye.
You guys across the water might not realise this but we get a real bum deal with our consoles, not only do we get a slower update we have more lines on our tv's, which is nice on tv pictures cos we get a higher res than you, hence the lower update speed. Unfortunately most games are written for NTSC and most companies either don't bother or can't optimise their games to draw the extra lines so we end up with nasty widescreen-like borders top and bottom. It's been this way forever, while you were enjoying full screen genesis games, our megadrive games had big old borders! AND because the update is slower and most companies don't write time independant games our games also run 17.5% slower! AND we have to wait ages for our consoles, Gamecube won't be launched here til march, xbox sometime after that. AND they nearly always cost the same number of pounds as dollars ie nearly twice as much as you pay.
It's a crying shame that SEGA have gone down the pan, the dreamcast is the only console that's ever really catered for us over here, most games were optimised to run full screen full speed, even the ps2 has nasty borders (althought there not as big as they used to be). Anyway I reckon I'll import my Gamecube and X-Box, don't know why I haven't done it before...
OK, I'm assuming that there will be a way of booting the machine to load and run code from your harddisk that you've compiled in the linux environment. In other words your actual game code won't be running under linux it will be running directly on the hardware using the provided libs (sony ps2 libs not linux) and your own home grown stuff, just like an actual ps2 game. You don't need a fully fledged operating system and all its overheads to run a game.
Now I'm not sure this is how it will work, I'm just guessing/hoping, but it makes sense to me that they should go this route. The old netYarouze worked in this way except you did the development on a pc not the target machine, there certainly wasn't any OS on the ps1.
The system manuals are definitley provided though so there's nothing stopping you coding your game in linux as long as you're prepared to forget about portability and access the hardware directly. I'm not necessarily saying don't program your games to run in linux, I'm just saying don't expect to do it through standard libs like mesa and don't expect it to be trivial to port existing linux games if you want decent performance.
Now, if someone were to write opengl like libs that were developed with ps2 in mind things would be much easier...
Right, let's get this straight, from what I've heard it is a fairly complete linux system. It's basically a port of an oldish redhat distro. It installs on the hard disk that comes with the kit (40GB) so has a reasonable/tmp, which it needs, don't forget that this is a machine with only 32mb or ram. Swap city. Having said that it apparently runs pretty well and is more than capable of running your browser (also included in the kit is a broadband adaptor), word processor etc. Resolution is limited to 800x600 though.
Sony have a page with a couple of screenshots and a features list here
Which brings us to why Sony are doing it. Yes they have got a touch of microsoft envy, they like the idea of having one unit which does DVD, games, web, interactive content and office stuff sat under your telly that is made by them. But, this is open source not m$ so don't get too upset. More than that though Sony most likely want to encourage the return of the bedroom game coder.
Think about it, they've done this before with the netYarouze project (ps one that you could connect to your pc and download code to) and they're providing the system manuals with the linux kit. Forget porting linux games, this is a games console! There's no way you'll get decent performance through mesa et al on ps2, the drivers won't be optimised for it, don't forget, it's not a PC (remember 32mb main ram, 4mb VRAM!). You're supposed to be adventurous, learn how the ps2 works, see if all those developers are right about it being hard to code for, take up the challenge.
If you do it right ps2 is an awesome machine, you just have to remember what your target platform is (hint dynamic texture management). Sony are giving people the opportunity to get back to the good old days and make games at home, go on, you know you want to!
Surely the point he's making is that they'd have uncompressed audio (with some sort of copy-protection) for normal playback alongside the wma version for copying to your pc or whatever. So there'd be less space for the uncompressed audio.
Of course it's a hoax, ok microsoft are bound to be working on a neXt Box, that's always the way with video games consoles. But they aren't going to be talking about it just yet let alone releasing pictures of it! It's clearly a dodgy artists impression. Come on, do you really believe those quotes?
Another thing, XBox already has a large harddrive, broadband capabilities, GeForce graphics and Dolby Digital sound! The nforce chipset is based on the xbox, it's southbridge (the 'mcp') contains the core logic and sound hardware found in the xbox, it doesn't make sense to base the next xbox on the nforce!
Also, do you really think m$ would use a name so close to their competitors (Playstation) and ditch their (by then) well established xbox brand?
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Slower loading times???
The neo geo was a cartridge based machine.
Interesting. I don't buy Sony's explaination either. Course you'll still need a 60Hz compatible TV to display an NTSC signal (even if it is an RGB one), although if your telly supports RGB it will almost certainly support 60hz. This applies to import games too, although you'd need to get round the copy protection to actually play an import ps2 game anyway.
Sony are trying to resurrect the "bedroom games coder", and if they can get talented people to learn THEIR architecture it could well benefit them. People cutting their teeth on this system will have a much better chance of a job in the industry, which will mean more games and so more licensing money for Sony.
They've done this before with the Net Yarouze (as mentioned in the article), and people did indeed use it to get into the games industry.
No it doesn't! You obviously haven't got a fully wired RGB compatible scart lead and are therefore missing out on optimal display quality. Are you using the composite lead that comes with the ps2? This works with dvd's but you don't get a nice crisp picture like with rgb (or svideo, slightly worse than rgb but still better than composite).
Mine's a uk ps2 too. See this site
No, no, no. That is simply not true. As documented at this playstation community web site (set up to support ps2 linux). While the complete hardware specification is indeed not made available, the device drivers (with source code) allow access to the restricted i/o devices. So you WILL have access to the hard disk, although you won't be able to make cd/dvds that you can read on the ps2.
Also, while the i/o and sound subsystems are wrapped up in the RTE, by contrast the EE cpu, the vector units, the DMAC and the GS are not only fully open for you to play with, but their specs are provided in the proper system manuals (provided on disc) and libs tools and source code are provided to help you use them. Put another way, you have full access to the graphics and cpu side of ps2. This is great for anyone wanting to play with the ps2s awesome graphics power, and a real opportunity for anyone wanting to get into games development!
I hadn't realised until now how that was done, they must be using the same sync on green on/off functionality to restrict our playback.
When this was first discovered at launch a lot of people (myself included) were upset about this, if you want to play games at their best AND watch dvd's you have to keep switching leads. Sony claim they HAD to limit playback in this way (cos of the marcovision thing, I think), but most standalone dvd's over here, including ones manufactured by Sony DO let you play dvd's over an RGB lead.
Thankfully DVD Regionx from Datel enables dvd playback through rgb, as well as allowing discs from any region to be played.
Every single game I've played on my ps2 locks the anolog mode to on at startup when it detects a dualshock 2.
Ermmm, yeah, mine is probably more like a fraction of a second than a few seconds actually. OpenGL works on my box though.
My old athlon slotA 500 in an asus K7M motherboard with a geforce256 has the same problem. Random hangs on or just after the nvidia flash screen. I also get weird green artefacts at the top of the screen for a few seconds when starting x, even when it doesn't hang.
My first thought on seeing this article was that this must be related, but there shouldn't be any agp going on (afaik) at startup, so maybe this is a different problem. Only happens with the nvidia drivers though.
True enough, lack of games and high price tag had a lot to do with 3DO failing. I'm not comparing the xbox though, just pointing out that if they market it to sound like one of these failed boxes, gamers might see it like one and shy away from it.
You're damn right about the 3DO, it was cool. The panasonic controllers had headphone jacks too, top idea. Still reckon 3DO Need for Speed is one of the best racing games ever.
Ah, I remember M2, they turned it into a standalone unit for a bit, but that was never released either! You're right about console upgrades too. 32X and Sega CD anyone? Will be interesting to see if Sony can pull it off with their harddrive and broadband adator.
It just doesn't make sense for microsoft to release a new machine so soon! I pointed this out last time the "HomeStation" was discussed. It would lead to massive consumer confusion. Two very similar products from the same manufacturer would make it very hard to know which to buy. Why would you buy an xbox once homestation (which apparently does everything xbox does and more) is released anyway?
It's far more likely that once microsoft has got a good grounding in the games market it will start marketing xbox as this sort of all in one entertainment device. All it really needs is a bit of software and a larger (external perhaps) hard disk. They need to establish themselves with gamers first though, and past failures of "multimedia" devices (3DO, CDTV, CDi) mean that if microsoft had marketed the xbox like this to start with gamers would most likely turn their backs.
Perhaps not a hoax per say, more a misunderstanding.
Whilst this is undoubtedly cool to see the ultimate way to wath the shorts is of course on dvd. Where do I get them you ask? Well we all know Geri's game is on a bugs life but over here in Britain at least there are quite a few shorts on the toy story 1 and 2 box set. Not sure if this was a collectors edition or what but it comes with a third disc with all sorts of lovely goodies on it. Can't remember eactly which shorts are there but Tin Toy certainly is and I think Luxo is too
You should consider us poor PAL gamers, we don't appear to have any chance of seeing HDTV's any time soon and we only get 50Hz interlaced on normal teles so the full frame is only updated 25 times a second!
Interestingly, even though you sort of only get 30fps it's still worth game developers updating at 60 fps. In this case each field will be different. In standard television signals the image is only changed every frame so every two fields are two halves of the same image and you end up with 30fps. However a games console can change the image every field so even though it's an interlaced image you do get 60 updates per second.
This is part of the reason why the new generation of consoles look so much nicer than the last, they are powerful enough to complete the game loop 60 times every second instead of thirty and so everyhting is nice and smooth (in most games). This is extra good for us in Europe beacuse believe me, while 30fps games look shoddy, 25fps is even more jarring to the eye.
You guys across the water might not realise this but we get a real bum deal with our consoles, not only do we get a slower update we have more lines on our tv's, which is nice on tv pictures cos we get a higher res than you, hence the lower update speed. Unfortunately most games are written for NTSC and most companies either don't bother or can't optimise their games to draw the extra lines so we end up with nasty widescreen-like borders top and bottom. It's been this way forever, while you were enjoying full screen genesis games, our megadrive games had big old borders! AND because the update is slower and most companies don't write time independant games our games also run 17.5% slower! AND we have to wait ages for our consoles, Gamecube won't be launched here til march, xbox sometime after that. AND they nearly always cost the same number of pounds as dollars ie nearly twice as much as you pay.
It's a crying shame that SEGA have gone down the pan, the dreamcast is the only console that's ever really catered for us over here, most games were optimised to run full screen full speed, even the ps2 has nasty borders (althought there not as big as they used to be). Anyway I reckon I'll import my Gamecube and X-Box, don't know why I haven't done it before...
OK, I'm assuming that there will be a way of booting the machine to load and run code from your harddisk that you've compiled in the linux environment. In other words your actual game code won't be running under linux it will be running directly on the hardware using the provided libs (sony ps2 libs not linux) and your own home grown stuff, just like an actual ps2 game. You don't need a fully fledged operating system and all its overheads to run a game.
Now I'm not sure this is how it will work, I'm just guessing/hoping, but it makes sense to me that they should go this route. The old netYarouze worked in this way except you did the development on a pc not the target machine, there certainly wasn't any OS on the ps1.
The system manuals are definitley provided though so there's nothing stopping you coding your game in linux as long as you're prepared to forget about portability and access the hardware directly. I'm not necessarily saying don't program your games to run in linux, I'm just saying don't expect to do it through standard libs like mesa and don't expect it to be trivial to port existing linux games if you want decent performance.
Now, if someone were to write opengl like libs that were developed with ps2 in mind things would be much easier...
Right, let's get this straight, from what I've heard it is a fairly complete linux system. It's basically a port of an oldish redhat distro. It installs on the hard disk that comes with the kit (40GB) so has a reasonable /tmp, which it needs, don't forget that this is a machine with only 32mb or ram. Swap city. Having said that it apparently runs pretty well and is more than capable of running your browser (also included in the kit is a broadband adaptor), word processor etc. Resolution is limited to 800x600 though.
Sony have a page with a couple of screenshots and a features list here
Which brings us to why Sony are doing it. Yes they have got a touch of microsoft envy, they like the idea of having one unit which does DVD, games, web, interactive content and office stuff sat under your telly that is made by them. But, this is open source not m$ so don't get too upset. More than that though Sony most likely want to encourage the return of the bedroom game coder.
Think about it, they've done this before with the netYarouze project (ps one that you could connect to your pc and download code to) and they're providing the system manuals with the linux kit. Forget porting linux games, this is a games console! There's no way you'll get decent performance through mesa et al on ps2, the drivers won't be optimised for it, don't forget, it's not a PC (remember 32mb main ram, 4mb VRAM!). You're supposed to be adventurous, learn how the ps2 works, see if all those developers are right about it being hard to code for, take up the challenge.
If you do it right ps2 is an awesome machine, you just have to remember what your target platform is (hint dynamic texture management). Sony are giving people the opportunity to get back to the good old days and make games at home, go on, you know you want to!
Surely the point he's making is that they'd have uncompressed audio (with some sort of copy-protection) for normal playback alongside the wma version for copying to your pc or whatever. So there'd be less space for the uncompressed audio.
Of course it's a hoax, ok microsoft are bound to be working on a neXt Box, that's always the way with video games consoles. But they aren't going to be talking about it just yet let alone releasing pictures of it! It's clearly a dodgy artists impression. Come on, do you really believe those quotes?
Another thing, XBox already has a large harddrive, broadband capabilities, GeForce graphics and Dolby Digital sound! The nforce chipset is based on the xbox, it's southbridge (the 'mcp') contains the core logic and sound hardware found in the xbox, it doesn't make sense to base the next xbox on the nforce!
Also, do you really think m$ would use a name so close to their competitors (Playstation) and ditch their (by then) well established xbox brand?
I can't believe anyone fell for this.