Looking Closely at the Restrictions of Linux on the PS2

Hal-kun writes: "I wrote an interesting article about Sony's upcoming Linux distro for the PS2 and some intellectual property concerns I have with it. It's an intresting look at how Sony limits the ability to have full access to the system, yet being able to keep it under GPL."

Comments

Bravery

[jeremyp]

"I wrote an interesting article" - very brave, just aching to be flamed :-)

I think I'll read it now.

how they limit it

[awing0]

They can release the whole source for their linux OS. The playstation and playstation 2 have copywrite protection that searches for "bad" areas of the disc, know as the boot sector. Domestic CD-RW drives cannot perfectly duplicate these discs, so you have to "modify" your console to get it to boot these discs. Sony has recently been going after the makers of the devices that allow you to boot CD-R's and DVD-R's. So, most people, even with the PS2 linux source, couldn't use it without buying Sony's disc. They could also make it so big that you can't fit it on a 700MB disc, being a DVD release only, which would further prevent most from getting it for free.

Re:how they limit it

[Hougaard]

A couble of comments:

1) Its actually not "bad areas" that Sony is using with PS2 discs. They have encoded a sort of sub-signal onto the disc that bruners cannot recreate and more important, nor can asian "copy shops".

2) The PS1 discs has a error written into the TOC but CloneCD (aand others) deals with this without problems.

3) Developers can actually buy CDR's at Sony with the copyprotection on, so they can burn discs to test on non development equipment.

4) Sonys DVD-ROM's has the same copyprotection buildin as the CD's. So even with a DVD-R (Burned on the A03) you cannot boot with a modchip.

Re:how they limit it

[Anonymous Coward]

3) Is wrong. Sony supply 'Test' decks, which can boot gold-discs. Developers _cannot_ create copy-protected discs.
You need to be a licensed developer to get a TEST deck.

Re:how they limit it

[AnalogBoy]

I'd like to know why it seems the visible majority of slashdot seems to think they have a right to get everything for free? Perhaps they don't realize they are helping to burn the economy..

Re:how they limit it

[billcopc]

I don't know where you've been getting your information, but it is very possible to boot DVD-R discs in a modded PS2, however the technique is just a little awkward with the currently modchips (a double swap is required). I used to own an A03 (until the thing died and the shop had no stock to replace it - ugh!), and I've tried a few copies on my unit, they work fine.

I don't see why I couldn't just concoct a PS2Linux-based DVD-R with custom software, it should be fairly trivial.

Re:how they limit it

[Hougaard]

They do supply some CDRs to test. Your are correct that "debug PS2" exists. But as you know several version of the PS2 has already been produced. So to do compability tests these CDR's are used.

Re:how they limit it

[Hougaard]

Typo: withOUT a modchip ... Hehe.. My NEO4+Origa will boot DVD-R's directly. (A fine solutions until I get a Messiah clone).

Re:how they limit it

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, like, if you wrote your own software why should you be able to use it for free anyway.
how's your brain tumor today?

Re:how they limit it

[zeno_2]

Im pretty amazed that Sony could have a blank cdr disk with copy protection already built in. I thought that it *had* to be done by a normal cd press (or whatever they use to mass produce cds) and not something you could put on a cdr (from what I know its different then a cd, the chemicals/metals used in the disk).

I could be wrong though =)

Re:how they limit it

[Anonymous Coward]

>> 2) The PS1 discs has a error written into the TOC but CloneCD (aand others) deals with this without problems.

This is not correct. No PC burner can copy the PSX protection track, regardless of software. It is on an area of the disc that is completely separate from the data. Even if it could somehow be locked on to and read, consumer-level CD recorders would not be able to write it.

Same with Sega Saturn.

Re:how they limit it

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking hippie. It's because of commies like you that the EU economy is in the shitter.

Re:how they limit it

[kindaichi]

FYI

Pirated PS2 games DOES exist in Asia, In China, it cost 10 RMB to get Final Fantasy X (not the International version).

Re:how they limit it

[Max von H.]

AFAIK, Sony *is* a CD/DVD etc. manufacturer, last time I checked. Shouldn't be too hard for the PS2 division to get whatever media they want... Sony makes its $$$ by selling the software (games), not the hardware, they got bigass CD production facilities. Actually, they basically produce any media that's supported by their hardware, from the old cassette up to the pro stuff.

/max

Re:how they limit it

[zeno_2]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

I dont *know* for a fact on any of this but im guessing.

And yes, im aware that Sony can create/manufacture cds.

The original poster said that Sony can send you a blank cdr that has the copy protection *built in*. From this magic cd, you can burn whatever to it, and the ps2 will think its a normal ps2 disk or whatever.

I don't believe this. Reason being, is that the cdr you would get from sony would have to be one that uses certain metals/chemicals that a cdr alters to make a cd. If the cd already has a copy protection thing built in, then when your cd burner tries to use the disk, you would get an error of some sort, because part of the copy protection shows up as bad sectors and whatnot.

Now, for sony to actually create a cd that has, lets say safedisc built into it, they would *need* to create this using a special presser that makes cds. You can't 'burn' safedisc to a cd, as the safedisc stuff *has* to be put there by something that is not a laser.

Me and my friend got in a discussion as to why you cant take the retail cd for lets say some game that has safedisc on it, and create an EXACT copy of it. The reason being is that your trying to reproduce something with a laser that can only be done by 'pressing' the cds. A cdrom has a lot of error correction built in, and so if you scratch your cd, you can probably still use it. Reason being is that cdroms automatically will correct itself if needed. If you wanted something that made exact copies, you would need a cd burner which did not do any error correction (in the hardware), but then I would imagine you could only burn *perfect* cds, because if there was any scratches on the cd, lint or anything, there would be no way to correct for the error. The cdburner would think that this dust and stuff on the cd is part of the data of the cd, not part of the media itself.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I dont think that sony, with all its power, could send me a blank cdr that had copy protection built into it, and I could burn it, and use the copy protection on my softare.

Red rag to a bull

[joebp]

In order to get Linux running on your PS2, you must boot the system using the PS2 Linux DVD. During boot, after all the copy-protection stuff is taken care of, the system lays down the Runtime Environment. This is basically a layer that hides access to the SPU2 (Sound Processing Unit), the input/output processor, the hard drive, the CD/DVD-ROM system, the controllers, memory cards, USB, i.Link and other peripherals.

I doubt it'll be long before there's a work-around. Placing such limitations on a piece of hardware or software never works.

See: CSS, DVD regioning, Windows XP Product Activation, PS2 Copy Protection, eBook encryption, et al.

When will big business learn? If something is secured in a paranoid way, it will be overcome to a degree. The prize is too big.

Re:Red rag to a bull

[Anonymous Coward]

Joshua Wise should rather stick his nose on the Linux Kernel for PS2 that has been released long time ago. USB, HarddRive and OTHERS information have *BEEN* released !
This is another idiot attempting to bash Sony (whether right or wrong is irrelevant), without being PROPERLY informed.

Re:Red rag to a bull

[Anonymous Coward]

When and how was Windows XP Production Activation cracked?

Re:Red rag to a bull

[anti-snot]

...about six months before XP was officially released.

Re:Red rag to a bull

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have an URL where we can get info on that?

Re:Red rag to a bull

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, its trivial, really. Take your average cracked copy of win2k, then to add the eXPtra XP features, poop in your left hand.

Re:Red rag to a bull

[Erasmus Darwin]

"I doubt it'll be long before there's a work-around."

Yes, but it's worth considering how involved the work-around is. For example, in the realm of books, the copy-protection work-around involves the rather tedious task of either manually retyping the entire book or using a scanner and OCR software. It's doable, but it's certainly not easy.

Likewise, if the PS2 work-around is inconvenient enough (such as the traditional mod-chip solution, which requires playing around with solder and several hundred dollars worth of easily broken Playstation internal hardware), it's going to reduce the number of people that use it. Compare this to the Dreamcast, where the copy protection was (as I understand it) completely defeatable on the software level -- you just had to download games cracked by other people, and you were set. The only requirements were having broadband and a CD burner (or a nearby friend with the same).

Anyway, I suspect one of the reasons behind Sony's goofy intermediate device driver system is to keep the Linux kit from turning into a easy, modchip-free copy protection breaker. Without their (admittedly annoying) protection system in place, I could see the PS2 Linux system being used as a giant bootloader to get the PS2 to read and execute a burned game. There would still be other software hurdles to overcome (such as any in-game copy protection checks and chopping things down to fit on a CD), but those're the same purely software hurdles that're already regularly tackled by cracking groups.

In short, even though I don't like the protection mechanisms Sony's introduced, I can understand why they did it.

Re:Red rag to a bull

[revoltingyouth]

that is a good point, if it is running off of an OS like linux, it would be easy to play games copied to a hard drive, or burned games with a possible program run through the OS.

Re:Red rag to a bull

[gambit777]

yes, but the fact that getting around it will be hard to do will just make it into a money-maker for someone who has the skill. Someone has time to do it, and they'll pirate it. First they'll just do it for the cahllenge and then they;ll make a business out of it. Inconvenience didn't stop people from making roms for emulators and it won't stop them from doing this.

Re:Red rag to a bull

[Anonymous Coward]

You can find it all over Morpheus or Kazaa, maybe some other P2P networks too.

Re:Red rag to a bull

[Anonymous Coward]

"For example, in the realm of books, the copy-protection work-around involves the rather tedious task of either manually retyping the entire book or using a scanner and OCR software. It's doable, but it's certainly not easy."

Most authors do all there typing on computers and most Editors read on computers. Therefore there is usually a digital copy of a book available. You just have to find it

Re:Red rag to a bull

[Ragin'Cajun]

I doubt it'll be long before there's a work-around.

Don't count on it.

We've had multiplier-locked CPUs for almost 4 years. Millions of people overclock, but nobody has discovered a way to increase the multiplier (only the FSB).

Re:Red rag to a bull

[Anonymous Coward]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Sony may have muted Neo, and crucified the Messiah, but the spirit of the modchip has risen again... and it's a memory card save.

I'm not going to give full details of my project yet, as I don't really want to tip off Sony, but here's a few tidbits so you don't lose hope.

Resurrection (Rez for short) is a PSX format memory card save that the PS2 browser executes the instant it sees it; it's a bootloader and accompanying TSR, basically.

You can copy it just like any other PSX save, but switching on with a memory card (PSX or PS2, or PocketStation) containing the Rez save loads it (or inserting it while the PS2 is sitting in any of the browser screens). (Yes, it could boot cheat cartridge code or some sort of bootstrap for a Linux kernel, or anything else you can make into an LZO-compressed IRX of 112KB or less. No, I haven't tried Linux yet, you'd have to bootstrap that off a PS2 memory card or a handy CD or hard disk.)

Thanks to a pair of totally rewritten CDVD drivers and a couple of very intelligent patches, after loading Rez (on bootup or insertion-during-browser) the BIOS can read every CD I've tried (excepting one bogus HK silver that, on retesting, my very-well-chipped PSX can't read either). (Mysteriously, one PSX game recognises it's genuine disc that it wouldn't before - Metal Gear Solid: Special Missions.)

Basically, we're talking a software-only modchip that lives on your memory card, and you can copy for your mates, or maybe some enterprising person can, with great effort, burn an unlicensed disc that boots (like Blaze and Datel) that writes the Rez save to your memory card for you. (Please do not set Copying Prohibited. That would be an invitation for me to add a crack for that to future versions of Rez.)

At the moment, Rez has about the same featureset as the fabled Messiah chip (which was/is doing all the really interesting stuff in software anyway), except the PSX colour correction bug isn't fixed (yet), and licensed PS2 DVD imports still don't work yet (I'm positive it can be done in software too though, and I'm working on it - DVD-Rs now work correctly).

It also removes the DVD driver's greenscreen thing and the Macrovision (which left a lot to be desired in terms of effectiveness compared to the other Macrovision implementations I've seen). I'm not really sure what the greenscreen thing actually was for (it really didn't seem to serve any purpose - RGB _does_ work for Macrovision, at least on my own unit, as it's carried over the composite sync pin which is the only real place you can get the sync from the PS2, it seems), but a little direct hardware access got rid of it very quickly.

I'm working on an RCE-proof auto-region selector, and on finding and fixing the imports-are-really-dark bug in the PSX driver (by no means the only bug in the PSX driver, but the only one that seems to affect only imports - that'll bring the featureset in line with the unfinished Messiah Full).

Rez will see an anonymous Usenet release (thanks for the great idea, Beale Screamer!) when it's done - that's how I intend working around the laws, by ignoring them completely (I am not, nor will I ever be, an attractive test case). Full source will be included so others can contribute and use, and it will be public domain (an anonymous author can't very well use any other license).

After that, anyone ought to be able to get the image, write it to a PSX memory card (using, say, Xplorer, an Action Replay, Caetla, a DexDrive, whatever) and copy Rez onto their everyday PS2 memory card (maybe going straight there if they have the hardware/software already?) or whatever, and make copies for their mates (the form of software spreading nothing will ever be able to stop).

Please don't mindlessly pirate games; support the people who make good games by buying them if you can.

No, I won't send you or anyone else who asks a Rez alpha. That'd risk tipping off Sony too far in advance. :-)

I already have testers within walking distance with each and every released model of each region of PS2, enough test discs to sink a battleship, and enough Red Bull to float the battleship again, and now I would like to get back to my beloved caffeine, my burned-into-my-eyeballs hexdumps and disassemblies, and my it's-not-really-procrastinating-it's-testing-Rez gameplay. :-)

Signed,
Ocelot Lockmist (Master Cracker)
[what one man can create, another can discover]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQA/AwUBPGHHhAXbfJ6t7DTREQKoRwCgiU0xrU5qVJ+eezCm YE ibnFvEp7kAoNTG
yI7xOmrYSqZffU0f52aYqZQW
=3HB4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re:Don't know if it's interesting or not...

[JanneM]

There are paragraph breaks... If you pick up a book or a newspaper, you'll frequently see the same paragraph style. Nothing wrong with that.

/Janne

Interesting indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

I wrote an interesting article

Indeed, it was an interesting article.

don't look now...

[buzban]

Linux and proprietary hardware do not go hand-in-hand.

...there are a lot of people gonna be *real* surprised at this part. Take for example embedded devices or internet appliances...

pun or just dumb???

[Mr. Quick]

Allow me to segway for a bit;

either that's funny, or he's just dumb.

just try a little belief

[atari2600]

Umm the saints are here - and they need to perform three miracles.

*Hack into the hardware
*Hack the Sony "prop" Linux
*Post a webpage and /. it

I have faith - the most absolute faith in todays dear hackers. :)

Correction to the article

[neier]

(slightly off-topic)
Where you mention "pull price", that is actually the pre-tax price of whatever you are buying. In your case, 3%. The tax is now 5%; but the net info on the labels is the same.

In case anyone is curious, there are actual laws in Japan prohibiting the selling of books, magazines, and other things at a lower-than-retail cost. It falls under "protecting the cultural heritage" or something.

Re:Correction to the article

[Eccles]

In case anyone is curious, there are actual laws in Japan prohibiting the selling of books, magazines, and other things at a lower-than-retail cost.

No wonder their economy is in the crapper. Selling at a loss beats not selling at all, especially if done promotionally.

Re:Correction to the article

[markmoss]

there are actual laws in Japan prohibiting the selling of books, magazines, and other things at a lower-than-retail cost. The main thing about that is that it eliminates the used-book, etc., markets, except for collectables, so the publishers get to sell more new books at full price.

A very long time ago, some American book publisher tried to do that with a license agreement on the inside front cover. The courts slapped them down quite thoroughly, creating the "first sale doctrine." Pity that doesn't apply to software -- but now we have government of the people, by corporate stooges (both Republicans and Democrats), and for the corporations...

Re:Correction to the article

[AndyChrist]

Oh, the biggest of these used-stuff store chains is "Book Off." They also run stores selling used electronics called "Hard Off." No american can see that sign and not laugh. ("Is that the opposite of a hard-on?")

Re:Correction to the article

[neier]

The law is only for new stuff.

A couple of years back, one of the game mfrs (Nintendo?) lost a lawsuit that was trying to prevent used game sales.

Besides Hard Off, there's also House Off which sells furniture, clothes, etc.

Re:HOW TO GIVE YOUR VERY BEST

[NullStream]

I haven't seen that before.
Good for at least one laugh.

Yawn.

[NiftyNews]

Yawn. Why exactly do people try to put (or run) OS's on video game hardware, other than the fact that "I can?" You can get better results with a dedicated PC for a couple hundred bucks...

Re:Yawn.

[Anonymous Coward]

the fact that you have to ask means you dont get it and, in all probability, never will...

-I wonder why I even bothered?

here's a mirror in case the site gets slashdotted!

[Anonymous Butthead]

Here's the test of the above article, in case it gets slashdotted--- Linux for the PS2 and Sony's Intellectual Property In a few months Sony Computer Entertainment of America will be releasing a version of Linux for their terribly popular Playstation 2. I can't help but to feel a little worried about this. Is Sony's PS2 Version of Linux Free, as in Freedom? Sony's never been one to be very forthcoming when it comes to giving their intellectual property away for free. Anyone familiar with my Playstation Documentation Project know that I have a past with Sony. Thankfully only by proxy. Not to go into outrageous details, but my documentation came about from a bet that I had with a Sony representative. It was during the first volleys of Sony's litigation with "Bleem!", a small two-man company that set out to make a commercial Playstation 1 (PSX) emulator for PC. Sony, at the time, was claming that the creation of the "Bleem!" violated countless patents, copyrights, and trade secrets. I, for one, thought the trade secret argument was a bunch of hooey. I speak and read Japanese and seen all kinds of documents about how the PSX functioned from both sides of the pond. Also homebrew developers and professionals were swapping notes in a wildly open mailing list that I had subscribed to. With this wealth of information in hand, I bet my Sony rep that I could peg about 75% of the internal architecture of the PSX without signing a Non-Discourse Agreement (NDA) with Sony, or using any official Sony documentation. I still have no Idea how close I got, but from the kudos and pats on the back I have received, I must of gotten pretty darn close. I was also asked to be a witness for the Sony vs. Connectix trial to show that Sony's claims of trade secrets was a pretty moot point. Before I was called to trial , Sony bought the Virtual GameStation division from Connectix. That in itself also proves to me that the doc is a little more than just a bunch a numbers I pulled out of my butt. After I published the doc, I kind of picked up intellectual property law as sort of a hobby. I figured that between Linux programming and studying Japanese linguistics, one more esoteric hobby couldn't hurt. I watched as intellectual property disputes raised issues that was supposedly solved over 100 years ago, but somehow it's different today simply because the media is digital now. I also watched as John Q. Public didn't care and continue not to do so. I also sit, bemused, as companies take advantage of this. In the future people won't care simply because "it was always like that" So imagine my shock when I learned that Sony was releasing a version of Linux for the PS2 in Japan. I was so used to seeing Sony fight tooth-and nail for their intellectual property, especially when it came to their game console. Now here they gave giving away the keys to the store, or were they? Allow me to segway for a bit; When I lived in Japan from 1992-1996, I saw the state of intellectual property there first hand. For example, normal broadcast radio does not play top 40 hits. Actually any transmission of copyrighted songs over the air, even a sample, must have a royalty paid to the publisher. If you want to listen to music on the radio, you find an American military station broadcasting on base. Japanese singers also do not commonly own the copyright to their own songs, they couldn't give them away even if the wanted to. Concert recordings are also illegal. There is also royalties you have to pay for the subtle music played in department stores, doctor's offices, and on the phone when you are on hold. Videos are divided into "rental" and "non-rental" versions. The "rental" version commonly cost more to the rental house, and the non-rental version must be sold at a particular price point set by the manufacturer for an allotted amount of time. As I'm writing this I have three Japanese items published by Sony that I purchased during a recent jaunt to the country. The first is a concert video, next is a CD, and lastly a PSX game. Along the spine the video, written in big bold Japanese letters are the words "Rental Prohibited". It's also set at a price of 6,700 yen (about $67 USD at the time) with a "Pull Price" of 6,505 yen ($65) This second price is when Sony gives the store permission to "clear the shelves" and can then sell at that price without getting penalized. These are prices set by Sony. The CD is set at 2,800 yen ($28) with a pull price of 2,718 yen (a buck cheaper) These prices were set until July 15, 1992. The CD was published in 1988. Lastly, my Japanese PSX game just set at a pull price of 5,800 ($58) It's up to the store to set something higher for profit So now you could understand why I was so amazed to see Sony selling a Linux kit! Linux and proprietary hardware do not go hand-in-hand. What about all the trade secrets that Sony waged a war in order to protect? It wasn't adding up. Their last PSX "hobby system", the Net Yaroze, game with some pretty steep intellectual property requirements. They required you to sign a Non-Disclosure agreement, relinquish all copyright control to the programs you made to Sony, and you had to use statically linked run-time libraries that not only bloated code, but kept you fingers out of the hardware. You also had no access to the CD-ROM. You have to upload your code (no more than 2 meg, including the library) via a slow serial connection and execute remotely. As more information came out about the PS2 Linux, I have found that even though they don't technically violate GPL, they are doing some pretty shifty things to make sure that their intellectual property is intact. From both the Japanese and English FAQs I have read, I have found out how they did it. Now I haven't played with the Japanese PS2 Linux system, but I've read Japanese reports. I'm also a Linux enthusiast, and though I can't claim I know every facet of the OS, I know how to roll my own distribution from scratch. What bothers me to no end, and the key to Sony's ability to keeping the PS2 locked out of even the most uber of superusers is the use of what called "The PlayStation 2 Runtime Environment" This is how the Runtime Environment (RTE) works. In order to get Linux running on your PS2, you must boot the system using the PS2 Linux DVD. During boot, after all the copy-protection stuff is taken care of, the system lays down the Runtime Environment. This is basically a layer that hides access to the SPU2 (Sound Processing Unit), the input/output processor, the hard drive, the CD/DVD-ROM system, the controllers, memory cards, USB, i.Link and other peripherals. The RTE does supply hardware looking hooks, an educated guess being faux-memory address and registers. Then the Linux kernel is loaded onto of this. There are Linux device drivers that accesses the Runtime Environment that are open source, but it's just a device driver calling in all actuality, another device driver that's closed. What you can and can't do with the system is limited. You have no ability to read a normal PSX or PS2 memory card directly. For example you can't open a Final Fantasy X save, edit how much cash you have, and save it again. Through the RTE you can format a whole memory card(!) and mount it like an 8 meg hard drive, but that card would be worthless for saving normal PS2 games. Once you put the Linux formatted card without Linux running (i.e. you are in the browser) it's ask to reformat the card. The RTE also not allow audio CDs to be identified. It also can tell if you have put in a CD-R or not (it can see a wobble track, which all CD-Rs have ) and likewise not allow the disk to be seen. A PS2 can read CD-Rs fine, the RTE is just doing copy protection first to make sure you can't. You will also have no access to the CSS portion of the MPEG decoder, but you can decode raw MPEG-4. Direct access to the Dolby subsystem is also denied. Anything dealing with region locks are also restricted. The first DVD (The boot disk) has a Linux boot loader and the RTE on it. This disk is not allowed to be copied. It also has the manuals on it too, which I'm sure are also copyrighted and not allowed to be publicly distributed. The Linux kernel is on the second disk and also on the hard drive after it's installed. In order to use a monitor, you must one that is "Sync on Green" . This means that the refresh rate is only in the green channel. The monitor must use that sync pulse to sync red and blue channels so they all get painted in the screen at the same time. The reason why you have to use that is because a PS2 can turn it's sync on green ability on and off. If you try and use the monitor adapter for playing PS2 games or watching DVDs, sync on green will be turned off and only the green channel will show up. Direct video output defeats Macrovision. Sony doesn't want you making copies of DVDs to tape. Keep in mind that your network adapter is going to have a MAC address that Sony, no doubt, knows. Also removing the PS2 hard drive and attempting to mount in a PC will also likely not work and possibly damage the drive. That's about it. Any questions or comments can be directed at me. I'm probably not going to pick up a Linux kit for my PS2 because I really can't afford it and I have a much more open version of Linux on my other PC. I'm not trying to dump on the system. I'm just trying to make people a little bit more aware. If I have anything wrong please correct me. Any negative comments must be processed through /dev/null before sending them me. ^_^

Re:Don't know if it's interesting or not...

[jeremyp]

I have now read it, but he could sure use a proof reader :-)

Re:Don't know if it's interesting or not...

[Anonymous Coward]

There are no paragraph breaks - look at the source. Not a P tag to be seen.

If someone wants to be an idiot and manually use BR...

Plonk.

Sony and Warranty

[sargon666777]

Personally I have had bad experiences with Sony. I have had 4 PS1's and 1 PS2, and a multitude of other Sony products. While typically for the most part the products are good the one thing that gets me about Sony is Warranty and support. Even the most minor thing is a instant void of warranty. I watched them void a friend of mines warranty on his PS2 becuase his fiber audio out cable wasnt made by Sony. I've also seen them do the same thing for the composite cable on the way out, and even power cables on the PS1. Not to mention non Sony memory cards, yes and even games. Which brings me to my point. If using anything non-Sony voids a warranty.... What happens if you add anything at all to the Linux distro they provide you with. Does that void your warranty? Or are they making exceptions in thier policy this time. I'm willing to bet they aren't making any exceptions.

Re:Sony and Warranty

[miracle69]

I've had a similar bad experience with Sony myself.

When I broke the screen on my palm (customer abuse), I called Palm and asked if they had a replace/exchange/repair type policy. They did. For 100 bucks, I got a refurbished palm shipped to me, then I shipped my broken one back to them. Very resonable policy for a portable electronic device.

I had broken my Clie screen (customer abuse) and called to see if they had a replace/exchange/repair type policy. They didn't. They were less than useless. Unfortunately, I had tied myself too much to their memory stick, so I had to get another Clie - but I picked up the cheapest one instead of trying to get some extra whiz-bang features.

I won't be buying other Sony PDAs in the future.

Palm - build a kick-ass next generation PDA and my money is yours.

Re:Sony and Warranty

[radish]

Errr...how did they know what brand cable you used? Did you tell them? I think I have a solution ;-)

Re:Sony and Warranty

[sargon666777]

Well on the cables I didn't however the person involved did. I learned my mistake on that when they asked for a serial number on the memory card (it said sony on it etc.) I gave it to them and they said it was a fake. So now I have one set of official product numbers for warranty reasons only :-)

Re:Sony and Warranty

[pherris]

Maybe Sony hasn't heard of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C))?

This federal law regulates warranties for the protection of consumers. The essence of this law concerning aftermarket parts is that a manufacturer may not condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the company's makers brand) unless the parts or service are provided free of charge. The law means that the use of an aftermarket part alone is not cause for denying the warranty. However, the law's protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty.

pherris

Re:Sony and Warranty

[sargon666777]

Well if what your saying is correct (not that I doubt you, but it helps to have a .gov to cite from then yes they have violated it. Many times at that. On the memory card issue above they cut my warranty when the problem I was calling in about was the lens being out of alignment on the cd reader. Since the two really can't damage the other I would say that was a violation.

Re:Sony and Warranty

[pherris]

(FYI: IANAL)

Yes, it sounds like a clear violation of the law. What can be done? Call Sony back, quote the law and (politely) demand a timely resolution afforded you (under this law). When they say no contact your state's AG's office and ask for help. They will lose your complaint in a sea of paperwork and you'll never hear from them again.

In reality Sony will get away with this. Welcome to America.

As for references see:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/2302.html
http://www.ftc.gov/ogc/stat3.htm

pherris

Re:Sony and Warranty

[faboo]

A friend of mine had a similar issue with a Sony VIO. His LCD gained a number of multicolored spots, not long after he bought the laptop. In his case, they were _not_ caused by customer abuse (he was aware that he shouldn't touch the screen and hadn't dropped it), but sony denied that it could have been a manufacturing (or shipping) issue. They were, however, quite happy to charge him substantially more than the retail price of the laptop to replace the LCD.

Re:Sony and Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

"I broke the screen on my palm "
" had broken my Clie screen "

Dude, you have some anger-related issues ...

Re:Sony and Warranty

[ncc74656]

When I broke the screen on my palm (customer abuse), I called Palm and asked if they had a replace/exchange/repair type policy. They did. For 100 bucks, I got a refurbished palm shipped to me, then I shipped my broken one back to them. Very resonable policy for a portable electronic device.

3Com accidentally sent me a Palm III to replace a PalmPilot Pro under that $100 replacement deal a few years ago (fell off my bike on the way to class and landed on my Palm...I thought I had lost my notes, but it worked well enough to sync everything out). I called to let them know of their error...they said I could keep it or, if I really wanted, I could send it back in and they'd send a PalmPilot Pro. Guess which option I took. :-)

I had broken my Clie screen (customer abuse) and called to see if they had a replace/exchange/repair type policy. They didn't. They were less than useless. Unfortunately, I had tied myself too much to their memory stick, so I had to get another Clie - but I picked up the cheapest one instead of trying to get some extra whiz-bang features.

A Sony car stereo that I bought a couple of years ago conked out after a few months. It was purchased as new old stock and I had a receipt for it (it was an older shaft-type unit with a reasonably decent feature set...you try to find something better than a $20 parts-store radio that'll fit a '77 Olds without hacking the dash to bits). I took it to a local repair shop for what I figured would be an in-warranty repair. To make a long story short, even with the dated receipt, Sony wouldn't honor its own warranty.

I won't be buying other Sony PDAs in the future.

If I were you, I wouldn't buy anything Sony. They might've made decent stuff in the past (my dad has an open-reel tape deck that's almost as old as I am that still works AFAIK), but Sony seems to be more about image and style than functionality or making a product that'll hold up to at least normal use.

Re:Sony and Warranty

[swv3752]

Dude, my sister dropped her clie, and they sent her a box to fix for $150. A friend a b&w one and it was $100. You are so full of it.

Re:Sony and Warranty

[King_TJ]

I made some other comments about Sony and quality just recently, in another Slashdot thread -- but I'll say it again here.

Sony makes so many different electronics products, it's really hard to avoid them completely. They have a few poor products out there (their portable CD Discman players come immediately to mind), but at any given time, they also make some really good stuff. Every review I've seen rates their camcorders as the best value on the market. (Canon usually comes in a close second.) The rule of thumb for their car audio has been "only buy the ES stuff, or else it'll be junk". 90% of the people complaining about problems with a Sony car stereo went with a cheaper (not ES designated) model. I have a pair of Sony home theater speakers I really like. I listened to quite a few, and these were the ones I liked the sound of best (within my budget, anyway).

Their warranties are way too short, and apparently, not well honored anyway. That is a downside -- but I'd be a fool to boycott everything Sony over it. I've got my money's worth out of my PS2 so far, and had no issues. If it does break and they won't fix it free, oh well. I can deal with it. It wasn't a multi-thousand dollar purchase or anything.

I like it

[CatherineCornelius]

It seems that Sony has protected the intellectual property invested in its closed system by putting Linux on top of a virtual machine. That's pretty clever, though I'm also fairly certain that this will only spur open source developers to develop a Linux that will run on the bare metal.

Re:I like it

[MaxQuordlepleen]

That's pretty clever, though I'm also fairly certain that this will only spur open source developers to develop a Linux that will run on the bare metal.

Hmm, I'm not so sure. It's possible, of course, but I think Sony's using a smart tactic to limit hackers: give them half of what they want.

By providing a Linux for the PS/2, even an (apparently) semi-crippled Linux, they have reduced the number of people who will work on or support serious efforts to hack the hardware. Lots of people will be happy to have *any* Linux on the PS/2 and go no further...

Re:I like it

[james(honest)]

"limit hackers"

What a wonderful, spring-time, naive, idea. I just love how it sounds. Really, say it. Say it out loud. Ah, it just brings back my youth. Thanks guys.

Re:here's a mirror in case the site gets slashdott

[Hes Nikke]

hear is a readable version (actuly it's more readable then the orignal!):
Linux for the PS2 and Sony's Intellectual Property

In a few months Sony Computer Entertainment of America will be releasing a version of Linux for their terribly popular Playstation 2. I can't help but to feel a little worried about this. Is Sony's PS2 Version of Linux Free, as in Freedom? Sony's never been one to be very forthcoming when it comes to giving their intellectual property away for free. Anyone familiar with my Playstation Documentation Project know that I have a past with Sony. Thankfully only by proxy. Not to go into outrageous details, but my documentation came about from a bet that I had with a Sony representative. It was during the first volleys of Sony's litigation with "Bleem!", a small two-man company that set out to make a commercial Playstation 1 (PSX) emulator for PC. Sony, at the time, was claming that the creation of the "Bleem!" violated countless patents, copyrights, and trade secrets. I, for one, thought the trade secret argument was a bunch of hooey. I speak and read Japanese and seen all kinds of documents about how the PSX functioned from both sides of the pond. Also homebrew developers and professionals were swapping notes in a wildly open mailing list that I had subscribed to. With this wealth of information in hand, I bet my Sony rep that I could peg about 75% of the internal architecture of the PSX without signing a Non-Discourse Agreement (NDA) with Sony, or using any official Sony documentation.

I still have no Idea how close I got, but from the kudos and pats on the back I have received, I must of gotten pretty darn close. I was also asked to be a witness for the Sony vs. Connectix trial to show that Sony's claims of trade secrets was a pretty moot point. Before I was called to trial , Sony bought the Virtual GameStation division from Connectix. That in itself also proves to me that the doc is a little more than just a bunch a numbers I pulled out of my butt.

After I published the doc, I kind of picked up intellectual property law as sort of a hobby. I figured that between Linux programming and studying Japanese linguistics, one more esoteric hobby couldn't hurt. I watched as intellectual property disputes raised issues that was supposedly solved over 100 years ago, but somehow it's different today simply because the media is digital now. I also watched as John Q. Public didn't care and continue not to do so. I also sit, bemused, as companies take advantage of this. In the future people won't care simply because "it was always like that"

So imagine my shock when I learned that Sony was releasing a version of Linux for the PS2 in Japan. I was so used to seeing Sony fight tooth-and nail for their intellectual property, especially when it came to their game console. Now here they gave giving away the keys to the store, or were they?

Allow me to segway for a bit;

When I lived in Japan from 1992-1996, I saw the state of intellectual property there first hand. For example, normal broadcast radio does not play top 40 hits. Actually any transmission of copyrighted songs over the air, even a sample, must have a royalty paid to the publisher. If you want to listen to music on the radio, you find an American military station broadcasting on base. Japanese singers also do not commonly own the copyright to their own songs, they couldn't give them away even if the wanted to. Concert recordings are also illegal. There is also royalties you have to pay for the subtle music played in department stores, doctor's offices, and on the phone when you are on hold. Videos are divided into "rental" and "non-rental" versions. The "rental" version commonly cost more to the rental house, and the non-rental version must be sold at a particular price point set by the manufacturer for an allotted amount of time. As I'm writing this I have three Japanese items published by Sony that I purchased during a recent jaunt to the country. The first is a concert video, next is a CD, and lastly a PSX game. Along the spine the video, written in big bold Japanese letters are the words "Rental Prohibited". It's also set at a price of 6,700 yen (about $67 USD at the time) with a "Pull Price" of 6,505 yen ($65) This second price is when Sony gives the store permission to "clear the shelves" and can then sell at that price without getting penalized. These are prices set by Sony.

The CD is set at 2,800 yen ($28) with a pull price of 2,718 yen (a buck cheaper) These prices were set until July 15, 1992. The CD was published in 1988. Lastly, my Japanese PSX game just set at a pull price of 5,800 ($58) It's up to the store to set something higher for profit

So now you could understand why I was so amazed to see Sony selling a Linux kit! Linux and proprietary hardware do not go hand-in-hand. What about all the trade secrets that Sony waged a war in order to protect? It wasn't adding up. Their last PSX "hobby system", the Net Yaroze, game with some pretty steep intellectual property requirements. They required you to sign a Non-Disclosure agreement, relinquish all copyright control to the programs you made to Sony, and you had to use statically linked run-time libraries that not only bloated code, but kept you fingers out of the hardware. You also had no access to the CD-ROM. You have to upload your code (no more than 2 meg, including the library) via a slow serial connection and execute remotely.

As more information came out about the PS2 Linux, I have found that even though they don't technically violate GPL, they are doing some pretty shifty things to make sure that their intellectual property is intact. From both the Japanese and English FAQs I have read, I have found out how they did it. Now I haven't played with the Japanese PS2 Linux system, but I've read Japanese reports. I'm also a Linux enthusiast, and though I can't claim I know every facet of the OS, I know how to roll my own distribution from scratch. What bothers me to no end, and the key to Sony's ability to keeping the PS2 locked out of even the most uber of superusers is the use of what called "The PlayStation 2 Runtime Environment"

This is how the Runtime Environment (RTE) works. In order to get Linux running on your PS2, you must boot the system using the PS2 Linux DVD. During boot, after all the copy-protection stuff is taken care of, the system lays down the Runtime Environment. This is basically a layer that hides access to the SPU2 (Sound Processing Unit), the input/output processor, the hard drive, the CD/DVD-ROM system, the controllers, memory cards, USB, i.Link and other peripherals. The RTE does supply hardware looking hooks, an educated guess being faux-memory address and registers. Then the Linux kernel is loaded onto of this. There are Linux device drivers that accesses the Runtime Environment that are open source, but it's just a device driver calling in all actuality, another device driver that's closed.

What you can and can't do with the system is limited. You have no ability to read a normal PSX or PS2 memory card directly. For example you can't open a Final Fantasy X save, edit how much cash you have, and save it again. Through the RTE you can format a whole memory card(!) and mount it like an 8 meg hard drive, but that card would be worthless for saving normal PS2 games. Once you put the Linux formatted card without Linux running (i.e. you are in the browser) it's ask to reformat the card.

The RTE also not allow audio CDs to be identified. It also can tell if you have put in a CD-R or not (it can see a wobble track, which all CD-Rs have ) and likewise not allow the disk to be seen. A PS2 can read CD-Rs fine, the RTE is just doing copy protection first to make sure you can't. You will also have no access to the CSS portion of the MPEG decoder, but you can decode raw MPEG-4. Direct access to the Dolby subsystem is also denied. Anything dealing with region locks are also restricted.

The first DVD (The boot disk) has a Linux boot loader and the RTE on it. This disk is not allowed to be copied. It also has the manuals on it too, which I'm sure are also copyrighted and not allowed to be publicly distributed. The Linux kernel is on the second disk and also on the hard drive after it's installed.

In order to use a monitor, you must one that is "Sync on Green" . This means that the refresh rate is only in the green channel. The monitor must use that sync pulse to sync red and blue channels so they all get painted in the screen at the same time. The reason why you have to use that is because a PS2 can turn it's sync on green ability on and off. If you try and use the monitor adapter for playing PS2 games or watching DVDs, sync on green will be turned off and only the green channel will show up. Direct video output defeats Macrovision. Sony doesn't want you making copies of DVDs to tape.

Keep in mind that your network adapter is going to have a MAC address that Sony, no doubt, knows. Also removing the PS2 hard drive and attempting to mount in a PC will also likely not work and possibly damage the drive.

That's about it. Any questions or comments can be directed at me. I'm probably not going to pick up a Linux kit for my PS2 because I really can't afford it and I have a much more open version of Linux on my other PC. I'm not trying to dump on the system. I'm just trying to make people a little bit more aware. If I have anything wrong please correct me. Any negative comments must be processed through /dev/null before sending them me. ^_^

Back to home

halkun@execpc.com

SONY changes it's mind due to THIS article.

[Anonymous Coward]

This article isn't news, and it doesn't give an interesting, fresh perspective on combining proprietary hardware with Linux.

The article provides the same old (perhaps) mal-informed opinions that the slashdot community mostly hears on the subject.

The author most writes that (1) Linux is free, and that (2) Sony is evil in protecting it's intellectual property and asks(3) why would a company be so stupid to do so, and concludes that(4) in the end, there is freedom.

This is a familiar theme, and instead of exploring details, the author basically says "I am smart and right, and those who protect their property are wrong".

Thanks for the waste of time.

Re:SONY changes it's mind due to THIS article.

[Arnulf]

The author most writes that (1) Linux is free, and that (2) Sony is evil in protecting it's intellectual property and asks(3) why would a company be so stupid to do so, and concludes that(4) in the end, there is freedom.

Just to clarify a bit (I've read the article)

The author with no word states that "Sony is evil". He explains the situation. There is no judgement. Look closely, what you maybe perceive as such is entirely your own.

Linux is free. So what? That does not make it "good" (versus "evil" profit) per se. It is always what you do with it, or with copyright in general, what defines it as good or bad. Law is neutral, how you follow law or use the holes of a law is the point.

The "conclusion" is none that I can follow. What you think about the author is entirely your own business. What the author wrote could be completely wrong, I cannot prove its validity. However, in human society there is always a minimum of trust. So I trust that, what he wrote is correct.

And I hadn't known this beforehand.

Now I was considering buying this kit. However, after this article I'm only considering it, because I can get a keyboard, hard-disk, and ethernet adapter in one set.

Have a nice day!

-Arnulf

Re:SONY changes it's mind due to THIS article.

[SubtleNuance]

"...and those who protect their property are wrong..."

Thanks for the waste of time.*

Without going into too much detail -- that you are obviously aware (otherwise you couldnt skillfully troll in such a way) -- your rabid 'property' assertion is malformed.

Intellectual "property" is not "property": it doesnt exist. It is an agreement, an artificial construct -- not a real thing . Now, outside of the "Get off my Property or Ill shoot you" United States, there is not such a radical concept of "personal property", in fact, allot of nations manage to share a great deal in their civil society.

So, really, you are making a very contentious point, failing to realize that your bias and pre-disposed perspective is not shared by all people (that 'intellectual property' exists && an individuals property is the most precious and unquestionable 'right' (the former was born by plutocrats && the latter by McCarthyism (+ unnatural adherence to the US Constitution without critical analysis (read: "American Democracy as a Religion))) but i digress).

So, where does that leave your post, and my ill-prepared retort? Nowhere, from my perspective you are a slave to your myopia and I -- who doesnt agree with ultimate-right of personal property or intellectual-property (in total) -- am a Neo-Communist.

Basically, you drop a blatent non-sequitur on /.; get modded +1 insightful, and I am amazed at both the moderator and yourself for not being able to recognize an argument beyond the skill of an 8th grade debate team, and I welcome the Anti-Communist bigotry that I will illicit.

*You certainly wasted my time with your narrow and skewed world-view -- how did you enjoy my wasting yours with mine?

Re:SONY changes it's mind due to THIS article.

[SubtleNuance]

"...and those who protect their property are wrong..."

Thanks for the waste of time.*

Without going into too much detail -- that you are obviously aware (otherwise you couldnt skillfully troll in such a way) -- your rabid 'property' assertion is malformed.

Intellectual "property" is not "property": it doesnt exist. It is an agreement, an artificial construct -- not a real thing . Now, outside of the "Get off my Property or Ill shoot you" United States, there is not such a radical concept of "personal property", in fact, allot of nations manage to share a great deal in their civil society.

So, really, you are making a very contentious point, failing to realize that your bias and pre-disposed perspective is not shared by all people (that 'intellectual property' exists && an individuals property is the most precious and unquestionable 'right' (the former was born by plutocrats && the latter by McCarthyism (+ unnatural adherence to the US Constitution without critical analysis (read: "American Democracy as a Religion))) but i digress).

So, where does that leave your post, and my ill-prepared retort? Nowhere, from my perspective you are a slave to your myopia and I -- who doesnt agree with ultimate-right of personal property or intellectual-property (in total) -- am a Neo-Communist.

Basically, you drop a blatent non-sequitur on /.; get modded +1 insightful, and I am amazed at both the moderator and yourself for not being able to recognize an argument beyond the skill of an 8th grade debate team, and I welcome the Anti-Communist bigotry that I will illicit.

*You certainly wasted my time with your narrow and skewed world-view -- how did you enjoy my wasting yours with mine?

Note to troll moderators: Ive got tonnes of karma to burn.

The PS2 and the X-Box will both be sooo hacked

[buckrogers]

in no time flat. Before the end of the year we will have full access to all the hardware on both systems and have full system specs. And nothing either side does will have any effect on it.

I look forward to ripping DVD's on the PS2 using the hardware decoder, then using a software DIVX to recompress the video so that it would fit on a CD-R. For personal use only. If I want to watch a movie that I bought on some other format or on another hardware platform, then that is my business and allowed under fair use. It would be nice to stream the videos to any screen in the house.

I had a lot of hopes for the indrema, but all to naught. Maybe a hacked Xbox, or hacked PS2 could be the indrema and be a great platform for developing Linux based gaming. Especially if the games where developed using a cross platform game library like SDL so that the games would be easy to cross port to any system.

Informative article.

[bigginal]

This article shows what Sony has done to limit access to the system, but it doesn't say exactly how Sony has stayed within the GPL, or how it is only staying within the GPL through "shifty" means.

Quick summary? Sure: There are so many limitations to the "Runtime Environment" that I don't know why anyone would want to have one. Basically every hardware interface is disabled, and you're not going to get much hard disk space using that whopping 8MB memory card (so you're limited in how many external programs you can run).

This thing sounds so crappy that I'd doubt that there's even a compiler on the system!
-bigginal

Re:Informative article.

[zudo]

Basically every hardware interface is disabled, and you're not going to get much hard disk space using that whopping 8MB memory card

No, no, no. That is simply not true. As documented at this playstation community web site (set up to support ps2 linux). While the complete hardware specification is indeed not made available, the device drivers (with source code) allow access to the restricted i/o devices. So you WILL have access to the hard disk, although you won't be able to make cd/dvds that you can read on the ps2.

Also, while the i/o and sound subsystems are wrapped up in the RTE, by contrast the EE cpu, the vector units, the DMAC and the GS are not only fully open for you to play with, but their specs are provided in the proper system manuals (provided on disc) and libs tools and source code are provided to help you use them. Put another way, you have full access to the graphics and cpu side of ps2. This is great for anyone wanting to play with the ps2s awesome graphics power, and a real opportunity for anyone wanting to get into games development!

Re:Informative article.

[Lispy]

Dont be too hard on sony.
I hear the Runtime Environment for the first time. And i dont really believe it yet. Lets wait what we will see in the final product.

Maybe any Japanese experieces with that?

Btw: Theres gcc on the Distribution, so dont worry.

Re:Informative article.

[Bazman]

It sounds like linux sits on top of the Runtime Environment, much like an emulator sits on top of the host OS of another system. They can release the Runtime Environment under any license they want, linux would just be a GPL app running on it.

Baz

Re:Informative article.

[xyleen]

Actually,
you get a 40GB harddrive with your kit,
so you have a bit more than 8MB to play with

Why???

[Beetjebrak]

Why would anyone really want to run Linux on a PS2 except to prove to themselves that it's possible? Sony was obviously reluctant to release their distro. They put all manner of hurdles in place to keep you from using YOUR PS2 the way YOU want to. Hell, I wouldn't even buy a PS2 just because of this. When I buy a computer (be it a pc or console) that single box is mine and I'd like to be able to choose what I do with it as long as I don't cause any sort of damage to others. If I choose to void the warranty on my PS2, so be it. Can a company like sony really enforce any restrictions/license when all I do is use the box for my own personal use and nothing else?? I'm no legal expert, but I'd be REALLY disappointed in the state of the legal system if this were true.

Re:Why???

[mcubed]

Why would anyone really want to run Linux on a PS2 except to prove to themselves that it's possible?

I would love to know the answer to that question.

Can a company like sony really enforce any restrictions/license when all I do is use the box for my own personal use and nothing else??

The DMCA prohibits you from circumventing protections designed to prevent you from gaining unauthorized access to a copyrighted work, but not from circumventing protections that prevent you from making a copy of a copyrighted work. So their ability to enforce whatever restrictions they have built into the device depends upon which restrictions you're trying to get around. Of course, the question really is moot if you're only doing it for your personal use, since they'd never know about it. In effect, you can do whatever you want as long as you keep it to yourself.

-----

Re:Why???

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would anyone want to run Linux on a PS2? If you have to ask this, you shouldn't be reading Slashdot. At least not in my elitest opinion.

Sync on green

[zudo]

Over here in Europe our ps2s won't play dvd's properly through an RGB lead (basically similar to your component leads, i.e. the clearest best picture you can get), they come out green.

I hadn't realised until now how that was done, they must be using the same sync on green on/off functionality to restrict our playback.

When this was first discovered at launch a lot of people (myself included) were upset about this, if you want to play games at their best AND watch dvd's you have to keep switching leads. Sony claim they HAD to limit playback in this way (cos of the marcovision thing, I think), but most standalone dvd's over here, including ones manufactured by Sony DO let you play dvd's over an RGB lead.

Thankfully DVD Regionx from Datel enables dvd playback through rgb, as well as allowing discs from any region to be played.

Re:Sync on green

[Tet]

Over here in Europe our ps2s won't play dvd's properly through an RGB lead

Speak for yourself. Works fine for me on my UK PS2.

Re:Sync on green

[zudo]

No it doesn't! You obviously haven't got a fully wired RGB compatible scart lead and are therefore missing out on optimal display quality. Are you using the composite lead that comes with the ps2? This works with dvd's but you don't get a nice crisp picture like with rgb (or svideo, slightly worse than rgb but still better than composite).

Mine's a uk ps2 too. See this site

Re:Sync on green

[sph]

Sony claim they HAD to limit playback in this way (cos of the marcovision thing, I think), but most standalone dvd's over here, including ones manufactured by Sony DO let you play dvd's over an RGB lead.

This isn't very believable explanation from Sony. It is true that Macrovision has not been specified for RGB, only composite and S-video, but that's because most of the consumer-level equipment can't record RGB signal. And because VHS works with composite anyway it doesn't even matter.

Of course RGB signal is far superior to both S-video and composite, because all color components are separate, and because it is the "native" format of CRT-television, and every additional signal conversion will degrade the quality of the picture, no matter how it's done. Also, RGB doesn't have NTSC or PAL color encoding (because it's RGB, duh), so with RGB PAL-television doesn't have to support NTSC to watch imported NTSC-formatted DVDs in color and full quality (and vice versa). Actually, this might be more realistic reason for out-of-box PS2 not displaying RGB correctly with DVDs...

Re:Sync on green

[zudo]

Interesting. I don't buy Sony's explaination either. Course you'll still need a 60Hz compatible TV to display an NTSC signal (even if it is an RGB one), although if your telly supports RGB it will almost certainly support 60hz. This applies to import games too, although you'd need to get round the copy protection to actually play an import ps2 game anyway.

Re:Sync on green

[Brackney]

According to info on the PS2/Linux forum, access to a sync on green monitor is only needed on initial bootup and installation. The video output can supposedly be reconfigured to output to a television afterwards. I don't get a sense of anything draconian from Sony or their forum reps on this (or other) issues related to the Linux kit.

Re:Sync on green

[Anonymous Coward]

Works great for me, too! Glad I'm not the only one. =)

Re:Sync on green

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, so you got a bum tv or PS2. I'm sorry to hear that, but there's no reason to take it out on others. Just relax, okay?

Re:Sync on green

[batkiwi]

They're actually telling the truth.

The US and japan PS2's (first run models at least) do NOT have macrovision on Component video output.

Sony had to pay a large fine for this, and tried (pretty effectivly) to bury the story.

The new model JAP ps2's (and the new model US ones once they come out) (the ones that already have an IR port for dvd playback) have fixed the problem.

The Europe ones were released before they had a fix, so they had to simply disable it in software for DVD playback.

Re:Sync on green

[Tet]

No it doesn't! You obviously haven't got a fully wired RGB compatible scart lead and are therefore missing out on optimal display quality.

OK, I stand corrected.

Re:Sync on green

[Anonymous Coward]

A similiar thing happens with Xbox. Instead of plugging into my VCR (this is to watch DVDs) I had to plug it into the back of the TV to get it to work right (no flickering, weird lighting, etc.). But I didn't want to LEAVE it there because sometimes it gets moved to a different TV and it's a real bitch to plug back in to the TV. So what I got was basically an extension cord, now I leave that cord in one TV and move the actual Xbox around at will with easy plugs on all TVs. I don't believe this was done on purpose but it was a bitch anyway.

Re:Sync on green

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think Sync on green is your problem, they probably turned on YCrCb output during DVD playback (as copy-protection) so the Red and Blue got attenuated and you got a green picture. I read that they used the same output leads for RGB and YCrCb and a signal the color space conversion chip controls which is output.

Some person in Japan has actually hacked the output chip (page in Japanese) so it outputs RGB all the time.

Re:The PS2 and the X-Box will both be sooo hacked

[WildBeast]

Well I believe they both have Video/Audio Out which makes it possible to connect them to my video/sound cards and record the DVD's.

Re:The PS2 and the X-Box will both be sooo hacked

[chicks_dig_it]

i was thinking of a project like this for my dreamcast. if there was someway i could build a pc hard drive to it and run the dc linux distro off it instead of booting of a gd rom i could have a small linux box. but in new to linux and console haking so any help would be appreciated if you can offer any help my email is: matthewwoodcock@hotmail.com

RMS' take on this

[Prowl]

he can run linux, play GTA3 and watch porn all on the same machine.

doesn't get much better than that...

It reminds me of..

[saqmaster]

.. the I/Opener.. Ya know, the little tiny Internet browsing PC that was based on a flash-rom linux kernel.. It was a great toy when they first started playing with it, but that's about the limit. A toy.

I can understand why people want to hack about with proprietry hardware and do cool things with them, but what exactly is Sony's point in producing a Linux distribution? From my point of view, they're doing it to keep (in all reality) the minority of box-hackers happy and maybe to prove a point that the PS/2 really is versatile (maybe a plot to scaremonger Microsoft with it's XBOX and the ability to make it do other stuff).

So, in say 6-12 months time, you're going to have PS2's and XBOX's running Linux. Sure, they're powerful machines (the latter comes with faster bits and more I/O), but is there any serious application? The XBOX is fairly bulky, won't really be very space-saving in a rack, but sure, it's a cheap webserver.

It just seems to me that Sony are going to a lot of effort to prove a point - what that point is i'm not quite sure.

Re:It reminds me of..

[zudo]

I think the reaon for buying one of these is fairly obvious. If you're interested in programming games then the opportunity to code for a dedicated games machine is too good to miss.

Sony are trying to resurrect the "bedroom games coder", and if they can get talented people to learn THEIR architecture it could well benefit them. People cutting their teeth on this system will have a much better chance of a job in the industry, which will mean more games and so more licensing money for Sony.

They've done this before with the Net Yarouze (as mentioned in the article), and people did indeed use it to get into the games industry.

Re:It reminds me of..

[Andy_R]

It's probably one of those things that big companies do, where marketing says there's a demand for linux, so they do it, then IP says they need to restrict it, and no-one ever quite twigs that the end product is useless. This reminds me of the 'Yaroze' mini-development kit for the original playstation, it was so hobbled (both in access to features and in terms of who owned the code you make with it) as to be pointless

Re:It reminds me of..

[Lumpy]

you obviously didn't look at the iOpener very long. I've got mine running at 400mhz 10gig hard drive, Linux on it Ethernet running happily, a touchscreen on it..

Hell it's the only socially acceptable PC in the living room.. and it's soon to get mounted in the kitchen as a kitchen PC.

one helluva toy, just like every other PC on the planet is just a toy.

Sync on green....

[wowbagger]

I keep seeing people who don't understand what "sync on green" is, and this guy is one.
<Electronics_lession>
For *any* monitor, it is required to know when a horizontal scan line starts, when it stops, and where the top of the screen is. This information is called sync, and is seperate from the video data that paints the image.

In a normal, modern monitor, five signal lines go to the monitor:

1. Analog red
2. Analog green
3. Analog blue
4. digital vertical sync
5. digital horizontal sync

Now, the hsync line is in one state while the monitor is scanning across the display, and another state during the time the electron beam is being swept back across the display (the horizontal retrace interval). The vsync line is in one state when the screen is being painted, and another when the beam is brought back to the top of the screen (the vertical retrace.)

Now, in older monitors, to save signal lines, they used a technique call "sync on green". During the normal horizontal scan, the green line was at a voltage between 0V and 1V, with 1V being full on green, and 0V being no green. During horizontal retrace, the green line went to -0.5V to signal sync. During vertical retrace, the green line was -0.5V during the whole scan line, and went to 0V during the horizontal retrace. By suitable filtering and phase-lock techniques the actual sync signals were recovered from this. Thus, a sync on green monitor required only 3 signal lines.

Now, if you take a normal monitor, and connect it to a sync-on-green system, the monitor's sync inputs will be undriven. A multirate monitor will simply turn off it's drive to the screen, assuming the computer is turned off.

Sync on green has nothing to do with "synchronizing the red and blue signals with the green" - they are synchronous in time already.

Your best bet for such things is to go to a computer graveyard, and try to find an old monitor. Many older monitors would do sync on green as well as normal discrete sync.

</Electronics_lession>
<Rant>
What I don't understand is why everybody is getting so excited about this. Sony is locking you away from the hardware - without a massive RE effort you are not going to be able to do much with this system. For the price of the PS2 and the Linux distro and hardware you could by far more useful devices (until somebody cracks all the hardware protection). Assuming somebody does manage to get raw HW access, Sony will make that person disappear in a puff of red smoke.

Why don't we all just ignore these people until they learn to play nice with others? Look at the Atari 2600, the Apple ][, the PC. They were successful because people could hack them. Sony and Apple learned the wrong lesson ("We must have total control! Nobody BUT US CAN MAKE MONEY OFF THIS") rather than the right lesson ("Hardware like parachute - works best when open.").
</Rant>

Re:Sync on green....

[really?]

You said "Assuming somebody does manage to get raw HW access, Sony will make that person disappear in a puff of red smoke."

Not these days. Not since the world is full of "open" wireless access points. Anyone who has the smarts to figure out how to acces the hardware, would have enough smarts to spend an afternoon doing a bit of "war driving".

Re:Sync on green....

[GiMP]

SGI Monitors are Sync-on-green and there are plenty of them that have dual connectors.. both 13w3 (sgi/sun connector) and HD15 (IBM PC). HD15 is also easily convertable to DB15 available on most macs (except some new ones with HD15).

SGI monitors can go for quite cheap, although they are very good quality. I recently purchased as refurbished (but in EXCELLENT quality) SGI monitor with dual inputs for $175. The casing, unfortunately was cracked in shipment.. given the choice of a check for $75 or replacement, I chose the check. $100 for a 20" Sony Trinitron tube with dual-inputs .. is quite a decent deal :)

I'm waiting on a high-quality HD15 cable to arrive via mail to test out the dual-input stuff.. but the 13w3 connected to my SGI Octane is quite good :)

Re:Sync on green....

[Tackhead]

> SGI Monitors are Sync-on-green and there are plenty of them that have dual connectors.. both 13w3 (sgi/sun connector) and HD15 (IBM PC). HD15 is also easily convertable to DB15 available on most macs (except some new ones with HD15).

<AOL>me too</AOL>

I've modded an SGI (Sony OEM) GDM20D11, sync-on-green, to run on a Sun Ultra 5 workstation with separate sync. I followed the instructions I found on Adam Kropelin's site: http://www.kroptech.com/gdm20d11mod/.

Another guy (http://perso.libertysurf.fr/lgranjon/electronique /sgi2pc.htm) has documented hacks for the GDM20D10 (Sun) and GDM20D11 (SGI) to run on a PC. It's in French, but the important information is language-independent.

Re:Sync on green....

[Anonymous Coward]

My (old) 17" Idek monitor can automatically handle h &V sync, composite sync and sync on green automatically at the BNC inputs.

I don't think it is all that tricky to extract the sync signals from green. Sound like a $5 solution with 1-2 chips.

Sounds like they are trying...

[jfrumkin]

From all appearances, they appear to be doing handstands to try and comply with the GPL, and yet still maintain control over their IP. Seems like that's okay to me - how many companies have just ignored the license completely?

Sony is cool

[kazzuya]

I dunno where you get all this anger against Sony.
Sure it went after Bleem & VGS.. but it had its own reasons (invest hundres of millions of dollars to render PSX famous and someone comes over to ride their horse).

As far as I know, Sony never bothered any *non-commercial* emulators. They knew PSEmu full well but they never even sent an email of warning.
Surely Bleem alerted a bunch of American lawyers, and you might have got in touch with them as an indirect result. But you are not writing from a jail, are you ?

In case, if you haven't noticed, Sony is possibly ready to give up on the super-closed-console approach in order to slowdown Microsoft. Even if they try to keep it somewhat close, they know it won't hold for long.
This is a great chance for Linux, and a great chance for the present and future hacker community to have a fresh new cool system to use in place of the same old PC.
You are not wishing that Sony would ship it's hardware expansion with Windows XP & IE, are you ?

Otsukaresama

Re:Sony is cool

[Rolo Tomasi]

Sony are Nazis.

Some time ago I had a Sony CRX120E CD Recorder which had problems with CD-Text. I called Sony support.

"Yes, it's a known problem. You need a firmware upgrade."

"Oh OK. Where can I download it?"

"You can't download the firmware. You have to send the device to a Sony service center and they will upgrade it for you. It will cost 50 DM."

"Lady, you can <censored> my <censored>."

I was pissed. I frantically searched the web for the firmware. The only thing I could find was the firmware for the CRX140E on the Dell website. The CRX140E is an 8x burner while the CRX120E is a 4x burner. I thought it was highly improbable that this would work, but what did I have to lose, I had to send the burner to Sony anyway.

I hacked the Dell flash program to work with the CRX120E and flashed the firmware. Naturally, it didn't work. The burner was dead. Wouldn't even respond to ATAPI commands. The next day, I sent it to the Sony service center.

A week later, I get an email from the Sony service center.

"We weren't able to flash the firmware. The burner doesn't show up on the IDE bus. We will have to replace the main board, which will cost <some ridiculous amount> DM."

OK, so these bozos can't flash the firmware in-circuit. Great "service center".

So I replied:

"Alright, send it back to me, maybe you could put the firmware on a diskette and put it with the burner, so I can flash it myself, after I've built my own freakin flash programmer?"

Response:

"Our policy is to not give out firmware. But we can dispose of the device for free if you want that. Otherwise we would charge you a <some ridiculous amount> return fee for P&P."

So, this was the last Sony product I've bought. Ever.

Re:Sony is cool

[Anonymous Coward]

You thought it was highly improbable, but did it anyway, and are now whining when you broke it.

Waaaaah.

Yeah, companies should pay free shipping and handling for people like you who 'know' *chuckle* what they're doing, right?

Re:Sony is cool

[Anonymous Coward]

The only people who are in love with Sony are people who've never actually had to deal with Sony.

And yeah, if it's under warranty they should pay for shipping it back, since you paid to ship it to them. C'mon that's just good customer service and everyone knows that.

Re:Sony is cool

[wpanderson]

> The only people who are in love with Sony
> are people who've never actually had to deal
> with Sony.

I had to deal with Sony just over a year ago after the shop I preordered my PS2 from decided they couldn't be arsed sending my forms back to Sony (Tax Free Dixons in Edinburgh Airport FWIW), and my PS2 was delayed by a week or so because of it. But Sony couldn't have been more helpful, phoning me on day of release, and keeping me up-to-date on how they were bollocking Dixons to get it sorted from me. I had a phone call by the end of the day from Dixons telling me when I could pick it up.

/me strokes his PSone's, PS2, Vaio, Clie, minidisc, VHS, hifi, etc Nary a problem with em.

Realistically the guy flashed his drives firmware with another drives firmware, and he fecked it. Big deal. Suck it up that you broke it and move on.

A quick glance into the future

[Koim-Do]

Well, with the current computer-related legalization in the US, companies will probably be forced by the govt. to do such tricks (a similiar RTE on your PC, preventing content piracy, child porn, and slashdot postings).

Next on law : Your hardware vendor may revoke your license. After all, if you paid for the hardware doesn`t mean you own it. right ?

Re:A quick glance into the future

[acceleriter]

That's why I'm stocked up on "pre-ban" 486's and low end Pentiums. I'm going to make a killing on eBay when this happens.

Happy/Sad

[TheLocustNMI]

While i'm happy that Sony is going to release this version of Linux for the PS2 in America -- who is going to buy it with these seemingly draconian limitations! I don't want to have to boot from a cd, and I'd like to do with the system as I please!

It just doesn't make sense to me as a consumer -- if this PS2 Linux allowed you to do anything with the system, would that not drive MORE people to BUY a PS2? Oh wait, that's right -- Sony sells them at a loss, and hopes that the software makes it up.

Oh hell, i don't know. Someone needs to hack it up so I can put a kernel on it that isn't 3 YEARS OLD.

Re:Happy/Sad

[CMiYC]

Well... not anymore. Sony started to break even on the hardware during this past holiday season. I don't think they are profiting yet, but they are no longer selling it at a total loss.

I'm kind of in the Happy/Sad camp myself. I was kind of excited that the PS2 had really neat hardware that I thought I'd get to play with. I guess not. I thought they would have least provided a layer in their RTE to allow us access to things like the 5.1 encoder. It'd be kind of fun to write stupid little demos and such. I don't mind so much about having to boot from the CD/DVD. I kind of expected that.

What would have been nice (and this doesn't surprise me) is being able to mount the memory cards as is. BUT I can totally understand why they aren't allowing it. Though if someone makes a hack for that, it'd be way fun.

Re:Happy/Sad

[Phil Wilkins]

What 5.1 encoder? There is no hardware 5.1 encoder on the PS2.

Re:Happy/Sad

[Steveftoth]

The reason that you have to boot off a CD is so that you can still play games normally.

The boot process is very touchy and it makes sence to not disturb it, if it altered the boot processing by having the HD in there, it might cause problems for some games.

They are not selling you a computer. They are selling you a 'limited' development kit. The whole point of this product is to get people to develop hobbist games for it (and not the XBOX). If you're not into throwing your time away making video games, then this is not for you.

It might be interisting to see if you could use this to build your home entertainment intregration device, but why would this be any better then just a normal PC? PCs can do more and cost less! This is just another toy to play with unless you are really looking for a way to break into the console games industry, for which this could be great. Assuming that you want to spend the time to learn the tools.

They've had this since the PS2 was invented, doesn't anyone remember the PS2 TOOL? It was a dev station that ran linux. Probably had more RAM and whatnot, but it was for debugging. I saw one at the GDC last year, they were neat but again, they are just for developing games.

This will run web browsers like crap and generally be slow compared to a NORMAL PC, but if you actually learn how to use the CPU and do some assembly work, it might be worth it. (maybe)

Summary...

[anothernumber]

This guy knows linux, he studies japanese, he is interested in intellectual property law, and he knows first hand that things in japan are expensive. He knows alot about other stuff too. Heck, he hasn't even see linux for the ps 2 and he knows that it sucks. But enough about the ps2 did I mention that he....

Restriction to the powerful video chip???

[AtomicBomb]

From the original article,
>>protection first to make sure you can't. You will >>also have no access to the CSS portion of the MPEG >>decoder, but you can decode raw MPEG-4. Direct >>access to the Dolby subsystem is also denied. >>Anything dealing with region locks are also >>restricted.
I wonder if Sony will restrict us to access those *powerful* video processing hardware. No one seems to have verified the claim that PS2 can be converted to a missile controller. :-)

New Sony Lifetime Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

Garunteed for the life of the product.

SONY runs linux, and you are excitied?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me get this straight.

Linux is all about freedom and the GPL.
When Corel dared to not embrace this 'freedom' idea, posts as 'a call to arms' were all over /.
.
SONY is all about protectionism.
SONY is a major backer of the DMCA. They promote regioned DVD's. These 2 actions alone normally throw /. up in arms.
SONY is planning on making sure thier Linux is not 'in the spirit of freedom' (show of hands if you are shocked) - you won't be able to copy it, it won't help you break the security protection of the PS2. Yet, where are the calls to arms? No, the mood on /. is "quick lets buy a PS2, so we can run Linux".

Hypocrites.

Re:SONY runs linux, and you are excitied?

[cooperj72]

Likes:
I like my Sony Trinitron TV. 1 point.
I like my Sony Surround Sound Reciever. 1 point.
I like my Sony PS2. 1 point.
I like Linux everywhere. 1 point.

Dislikes:
I hate the DMCA. 1 point.

score: 5 to 1. Sony wins in my house!

Excuse me... Yuna needs me to summon an Aeon now :)

-J

Re:SONY runs linux, and you are excitied?

[cooperj72]

Forgot Sony monitor. please no flames about my math. thanks. -J

Why I have one

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a japanese ps2-linux kit (although really the only thing that makes it japanese is the machine it's running on) and I am personally very glad I have it.

1. as a developer, this gives us a cheap way to give artists/designers tools that actually show how elements will look on the TV (colors), and how PS2 specific art (graphics/sound/etc) will be rendered. it is a huge savings to be able to use TCP/IP and open-gl for these tools. it also makes working from home a bit simpler, and who can argue with that?

2. as a programmer, I get to program two things that I enjoy (just for the hell of it) - linux and ps2 hardware - at the same time. sure, I have a few PCs here that would kick the linux kits ass easily at generic apps, esp. memory-hungry and cpu-hungry apps. but just for the fun of using linux on an embedded system, it's great.

and for a wannabe console game programmer, shit -it's an awesome place to start. you can begin with the familiar ground (linux/open-gl/etc) and slowly move to the real hardware specific features.

3. as for GPL vs. Sony's IP rights, I think some people around here have this impression that there is some guy at sony "headquarters" in japan making this hugely compicated agenda that is surely not in the best interest of the open software crowd. I'm pretty damn sure this isn't the case, and as a matter of fact, I think there are some people at sony who have gone pretty damn far (maybe even slightly beyond what their lawyers would consider comfortable) to show their support for the open software crowd. some people there do care, but some don't. same as everywhere. and instead of bitching about it, I'm damn happy that they've taking this starting step (opposed to how closed the PS1 was).

there were probably a couple of people at sony who went to bat saying that they should release this linux kit because there'd be a ton of people who'd be very glad to have it. and that stance was probably pretty unpopular. so the message I want to send to those guys it "hey thanks, great job. good start!" so that maybe in the future, they'll go a little bit farther next time and have even fewer things closed.

flame if you want.
whatever.

Re:Why I have one

[SilentChris]

"so the message I want to send to those guys it "hey thanks, great job. good start!" so that maybe in the future, they'll go a little bit farther next time and have even fewer things closed."

And the reason for this is? Personally, as a developer, I could care less if the system I'm coding on has an open or closed OS. Very few games, if any, are going to made for Linux on PS2. Those that are won't take advantage of the underlying hardware - not only because of the reasons stated in the article (that Sony's version of Linux hides some of the hardware) but also because the system wasn't built to run games in Linux. It was build, mastered, and tweaked by engineers to run in its native enviroment.

I sometimes think arguments for "openness" are silly, particularly on devices that hardware manufacturer's created to be closed. You can argue all you want for "open standards" - it isn't going to mean jack to the millions of PS2 (and XBox, and GameCube, etc.) game players out there who don't care what OS their system is running, just if the graphics are fast and the control is solid.

Re:Why I have one

[Anonymous Coward]

"And the reason for this is? Personally, as a developer, I could care less if the system I'm coding on has an open or closed OS. "

I wasn't suggesting that I want to make my -game- under the ps2-linux kit. that would be stupid for a whole host of reasons, the most significant being:
1. requires additional h/w. not a hell of a lot of sales potential there IMO.
2. speed. linux, though -perhaps- better suited for speed than other OSs, is not going to be better than -no- OS, which is what I'll always ultimately prefer for console programming.
3. yes, I agree: the player doesn't care, so neither do I (in this case.)

it's practical (for me) for: tools & debugging & fun.

as to the question of -why- an open system in those cases, I think that answer is the same as -why- an open system in any case:

1. shared resources. hell, there's a hell of a lot of linux utilites that I now can use out-of-the-box. networking and open gl are the most obvious examples.

2. shared changes. when I'm working with the console specific proprietary stuff and I want to make my code (when I'm able) "public", it's limited to a very small group of NDA covered developers. but here I can perhaps make changes that would be relevant to many embedded system programmers running linux and be able to be distribute it very publically.

3. shared ideas. more people working on the same or similar things often means we can hash out ideas, or gain from other's errors and have a better result.

The reason PS2 Linux was made

[Lurks]

The reason PS2 Linux was made in the first place is to provide an inexpensive dev-kit for Japanese students which are looking to enter the games industry. It's not a bad idea in that regard. I'm pretty puzzled why these did this in the West though. They asked if there was much demand and naturally rather a lot of people put their hands up and expressed basic interest in the PS2 Linux. I'm not sure that there was any level of understanding (and still isn't) on why they were doing this in the first place.

In no way was this designed to be some sort of feasible Linux system in a general sense. Sony don't particularly want you hacking about making drivers and doing weird things with their hardware. In fact they've made it pretty damn difficult to do so. And as for ideas on hacking it to gain more access... I respecfully suggest that people making these overtures don't have that much of an understanding on what the PS2 hardware is like.

However if someone absorbs much of the included hardware manuals, gets a handle on some of the DMA issues and maybe learns a bit of vector unit assembly then they're some ways down the road in becoming a useful PS2 commercial developer. Is that anyone here? I doubt it.

I'm sure the debate will continue and some hard-core Linux evangelists will crow about license issues and that there ought to be unfettered access to the hardware. That's not Sony's agenda and, to be honest, why is this much of a desirable thing anyway. Quite clearly Linux on a PC is more useful in any event.

I'd really like to know if this will sell anything in the West at all. The demand for games developers is such that you can get an entry level job straight out of university anyway. If you're going to work on PS2 dev, they'll factor in that training on the 'real steel' dev-kits anyhow.

If you wanted to do home-brew game development for console-like applications, the Gameboy Advance is an infinitely more feasible platform from a technical point of view. Coupled with the fact you could give a copy of your work to someone else or demonstrate it on a stock GBA, it's got to be a more attractive platform for this sort of thing.

Re:The reason PS2 Linux was made

[Anonymous Coward]

this is very true, from what I have seen , japanese teens run rings around most any american teen in brainpower and knowlege. Hell they force the kids to learn programming, at least 1 language. you cannot graduate without at least a calculus level of math. Both of which would instantly flunk 98.7% of all jocks, and 62.7% of the rest of the turds that roam the school hallways.

the Japanese are far smarter than any american... and they are making their kids even smarter while we make our kids dumber.

Posting Anaon to keep from getting karma nailed... but everything I speak is true... american schools make kids stupid.

Re:The reason PS2 Linux was made

[Anonymous Coward]

And Japanese students have an incredibly high suicide rate, at the same time their nations economy is going down the shitter. Good thing the system is working out so well for them don't you think?

Re:The reason PS2 Linux was made

[Anonymous Coward]

The flip side of this is that Japanese college students, on average, do absolutely nothing. You think American college students are lazy -- you haven't seen anything!

Re:The reason PS2 Linux was made

[benwall]

Start Flame:

You are an idiot. There are idiots everywhere, not just in the United States and you are proof. I am the product of an american education system and I run rings around Japanese graduate students that come here for an education. Just because the average is low doesnt tell you anything about american education. What it does tell you is that there are a lot of people here that don't value that education. Why do you think that the US has so many good Universities? Because there are a lot of smart people here that's why. Here, not in Japan! There are smart people and dumb people everywhere, so dont make it seem like all Japanese are smarter than all Americans, because let me tell you, I have met some real fucking dumb Japanese people. I have met some smart ones too though (and cute).

End Flame.

Re:The reason PS2 Linux was made

[someone247356]

I may be wrong here, but I don't think that Japanese children are any smarter or dumber than their American counterparts. In fact I would wager that most of the children (baring genetic disorders or malnutrition) are pretty much the same world over.

The biggest difference is the educational system and the goals that the educational system has. If what you say is true, then Japan has math skills and computer programming as goals for it's educational system. Germany, the last time I checked (which was about a decade ago) didn't teach history, art or music in their public education system. The US public schools were aimed at turning out factory workers. They did a very good job turning out factory workers, it's just that we don't need factory workers anymore and the system hasn't caught up. Does that mean that German students are artistically challenged? Perhaps.

At the moment, I would supplement the public education of my children in the US, especially if you have other goals than to be factory workers in mind for them.

Of course higher education is a completely different matter. In most of the rest of the world you have to pass all kinds of complicated tests to get into college (hence the high suicide rate of students in those countries) but once you get it, you basically get a free ride. In the US any idiot with enough money can get into college, but the better ones make you work your bottom off to graduate. Is it any wonder why most of the rest of the world wants to go to graduate school here in the states?

I guess what I am saying it that it isn't that the intelligence of Japanese children is any better or worse than American children, it's that they are a product of completely different educational systems.

No one is inherently better or worse than anyone else.

Hey! I have a few IBM PS/2s!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is great that I can finally run Linux on my old IBM PS/2 computers! But what does Sony have to do with this? :o)

Show me the sony.

[Circuit Breaker]

Unfortunately for IBM and Apple, even though the platforms were immensely successful, it wasn't them who made the real big money - it was distributed among a lot of other players. Sony cares about making money rather than standardizing an open platform.

Re:Show me the sony.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm... maybe IBM didn't get rich on the HW, but they have sure profited from the profileration of PCs everywhere. The money in IBM mainframes wasn't on the hardware per se, but on the support contracts that went with the hardware (i.e., the "service" side).

The money in gold mining in the western US in the 1800's wasn't in the extracted gold and silver per se, but in selling shoes (Nordstrom's), jeans (Levi's), and banking (Bank of America).

Re:Show me the sony.

[Christian Smith]

IBM have made a HUGE amount of money from the PC. They only really lost control when they started back down the proprietry route (PS/2, MCA.)

If IBM hadn't done the PC when they did, it was only a matter of time before someone else did, and they'd have made no money.

Re:The PS2 and the X-Box will both be sooo hacked

[Anonymous Coward]

you want to rent/borrow DVDs and copy them. 'fess-up.

too many restrictions?

[shiznitle]

I think Sony has a good idea, but come on now, give us some freedom, I want full access! It would be so awesome to be able to edit saved games. I would rule the ps2 world! hahahahahaha!

Re:Don't know if it's interesting or not...

[smcv]

<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Mozilla/4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD VOYN-472 (Win98; I) [Netscape]">

Say no more.

Re:Oi

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there any chance you could just post the BOAATM stories once only and just them from this account. Then, those of us who want to follow the story (and I am sure there are many) can do so easily.

Thanks.

Cracking the Virtual Machine

[liquidsin]

Ok, sure - sooner or later, somebody WILL crack the protection layer and get raw hardware access. Everyone knows it, since I've seen about 80 posts so far saying how fast it will happen. So then what? Everyone's so firm that this will happen. That it MUST happen, for the greater good or something. But what will anyone do with it? Are there going to be any apps that make the PS2/Linux kit a must have? Will somebody develop some breakthrough game? Or will we see more of the consoles running apache that we see now with the Dreamcast? "Yeah, well I have a PS2 running apache! And all I have to do is boot from a dvd and keep all my served files under 8Mb so they fit on a memory card." Bah. Nobody will develop games for it. It'll be nothing more than a novelty that gets stuffed away in the closet when you realize that you can do way more on a PC that, for the same price, has far superior hardware. It's like watching a bunch of cats, scratching at a closed door, and as soon as somebody opens it, they sniff around and walk away.

Re:Cracking the Virtual Machine

[geekoid]

maybe, but occasionally someone comes along and does something unexpected and cool.
Besides, Isn't there a Hard drive for the PS2? and USB support? Why can't I use those device to store served files?

Wait a minute, which country is he talking about?

[Anonymous Coward]

The author lists various horrors of intellectual property law:

• Royalties charged for transmission of songs on the radio
• Singers don't own the copyright to the work they do
• Illegal to tape concerts
• Royalties paid for music in elevators, doctors' offices, and on hold in telephone systems
• Videos sold to the public have notices on them warning that they are not allowed to be rented

Which country are we talking about again? Oh, yeah, Japan. Right.

Because systems go extinct...

[NanoGator]

I like the idea of porting Linux to my Dreamcast because it gives it new life. For example, I want to be able to burn CD's of DIVX-compressed movies and play them back on my Dreamcast, so I can watch them on my TV w/o need of having a computer attached.

If first they port Linux to the DC (which I think has been done...), then they port DivX to the DC, then those are the building blocks I need to do this. Then, they can port Linux to the PS2, and then this code at some point will be able to run on it. Suddenly my extinct game machine has a new purpose.

If anything, it's a fun project. Practicality comes later.

Re:Because systems go extinct...

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems very unlikely that your Dreamcast has enough power to decode a DivX movie in real time. Still a decent argument, though.

Re:Because systems go extinct...

[Forkenhoppen]

*ahem* Did you not read the article? You can't use CD-Rs in the Linux PS2; piracy, and all that. Although you may be able to stream 'em off another computer in your house, over the ethernet adapter..?

Re:Because systems go extinct...

[NanoGator]

Yah I'm concerned about that too. Frankly, I'll be happy if it does 320 by 240 at 30fps decently. One of these days I'd like to set up a computer to act as a PVR, and I think I can encode to DivX with it.

My plan is to get 4 hours on a CD, so 320 by 240 is probably the candidate. It's not quite VHS quality, but it's certainly watchable.

Re:Because systems go extinct...

[NanoGator]

Heh I said Dreamcast, not PS2. If I were to buy a PS2 for that purpose, by the time it gets cheap enough I'll have a DVD burner. My understanding is that it won't be long before I can get a DVD burner that makes DVD's playable on a DVD player. I'll probably want to use DivX at that point since I can stuff a lot more onto a DVD than I could with MPEG2.

It's hard to predict what other uses I'll find for it, though. I like the idea of playing MAME on my Dreamcast. It'll likely run better on the PS2, though.

Once Linux is sucessfully ported to PS2 and easy to burn discs for, then the life of the PS2 is extended for me. When they start bombing them out for $50 - $100, then I'll be able to do something with it after the games get old.

Re:Because systems go extinct...

[Steveftoth]

There is a port of DIVX to the DC, it is not optimized and is unable to play movies @ full speed. Maybe if someone is willing to profile and convert it to ASM it will be fast enough to play movies.

With all these propertiary consoles it's tough to spend a lot of time programming them since so much has to be thrown away when going from one console to the other. At least C is kinda portable.

Re:Because systems go extinct...

[Forkenhoppen]

I was talking about the PS2; that's what your last few sentences were about, after all.

My point was that Linux is already ported to the PS2 as much as it ever will be without want of a drastic soldering job. My comments followed along that train of thought.

As for the DC DivX player, I doubt it will ever be optimized enough to be able to play any of today's bitrates. As a matter of fact, I suspect it's impossible; if an optimized codec is required to play it on a 400MHz 3DNow!-based Windows PC, (a K6-3, my frame of reference here) then what hope is there for a 200Mhz SH-4 CPU? Both are relatively evenly matched with YUV->RGB conversion and SIMD instructions.. the 3DNow! codec relies on all of these to pump out the frames it does, and yet it still chokes at higher bitrates. How does that bode for a Dreamcast codec?

The current codec for Dreamcast can barely pump out 5-10 frames per second, last time I checked. So to me, at least, a DivX player for Dreamcast with full framerate would seem highly unlikely.

Feel free to prove me wrong, of course... ; )

Re:Because systems go extinct...

[NanoGator]

Megahertz on a SH-4 are different than the MHZ on a Pentium class chip. Now I'll tell you right now that I know jack about processors, but it is my understanding that the SH4 is more optimized than a general purpose PC.

I could easily be wrong about this, but I have a feeling that I'm at least partially right.

Heh it'd be interesting if they found a way to use the geometry processor on the graphics chip to help it out.

Re:here's a mirror in case the site gets slashdott

[Pope]

any transmission of copyrighted songs over the air, even a sample, must have a royalty paid to the publisher... Japanese singers also do not commonly own the copyright to their own songs, they couldn't give them away even if the wanted to... There is also royalties you have to pay for the subtle music played in department stores, doctor's offices, and on the phone when you are on hold. Videos are divided into "rental" and "non-rental" versions. The "rental" version commonly cost more to the rental house, and the non-rental version must be sold at a particular price point set by the manufacturer for an allotted amount of time.

And this is different from North America how?

Didn't IBM discontinue the PS/2 line?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like ages ago? Oh wait Sony? Oh - PlayStation 2,
OK never mind :-)

Re:Didn't IBM discontinue the PS/2 line?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is funny how?

Re:Didn't IBM discontinue the PS/2 line?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your being a moron and not getting it doesn't make it not funny. Now move along.

~~~

I'm already working on a PS2 linux title

[Mongoose]

I'm porting my TombRaider 1-5 OpenGL based engine implementation over to PS2 linux as soon as I get my kit.

I'm going for crazy new particle systems and multiplayer, so I can avoid bothering with reproducing the hardcoded gameplay issues alsmost entirely.

Understandable.

[Maul]

Sony does sell professional development kits for
a hefty sum of money. It is doubtful that they'd
sell something as powerful for $200. I wasn't
expecting that from the start with this. The Linux
kit for PS2 will be very much like the "black"
Playstation that Sony sold for about $700 back
in the PS1 days. It will be a fun toy for people
to play with. In some cases, people will get their
first taste of game programming on a console with
this kit. People will share some games they made
with their friends. This is primarily a toy
and a learning device.

If the protection layer that has been discussed
is broken somehow, I still doubt it will be much
more than above.

I'll probably be ordering one of these things.
It seems like it will be a pretty cool/fun thing
to have for my PS2. Probably more fun playing
with it than some games.

PS2 != PS/2

[kingosric]

Am I the only ex-PS/2 owner who sees PS2 and thinks IBM, not Sony?

Buy early! was: Re:Red rag to a bull

[LighthouseJ]

I suggest everyone get the earliest version possible because that's when the protection will be lowest. If the US kit is released and a week later someone finds out how to disable that, then a week after that, Sony releases a "bugfix" release 1.1 which makes it much harder. Just make sure you get 1.0 because it'll be the easiest to crack.

Re:?What I?m Curious About?

[Anonymous Coward]

This was moderated off-topic ?????

Try to read that page with for example Netscape on Linux and you will see that this page is litteraly filled with non-standard (windows) quote characters displayed as '?', this makes that page nearly unreadable.

Interesting...

[Refrag]

The author states that the article is interesting, and interesting. But, is it interesting?

interesting?

[h4x0r-3l337]

The fact that the author himself claims to have written an "interesting article" is hilarious enough, but the fact that he even admits to not actually having used a linux PS2 system makes me wonder what this is doing on slashdot at all...

Re:interesting?

[Anonymous Coward]

well, most people on slashdot comment on articles although they haven't even read them. I regard this being synonymous case. ;)

Japan isn't THAT different

[URSpider]

When I lived in Japan from 1992-1996, I saw the state of intellectual property there first hand. For example, normal broadcast radio does not play top 40 hits. Actually any transmission of copyrighted songs over the air, even a sample, must have a royalty paid to the publisher. If you want to listen to music on the radio, you find an American military station broadcasting on base. Japanese singers also do not commonly own the copyright to their own songs, they couldn't give them away even if the wanted to. Concert recordings are also illegal. There is also royalties you have to pay for the subtle music played in department stores, doctor's offices, and on the phone when you are on hold.

And, except for not playing Top 40 on the radio, how is this different from the Good ol' USA? Ever heard of ASCAP, buddy? Here in the US, radio stations sure as heck pay royalties for the songs they play. Muzak is a pay service, and they've got to pay their composers. If you play CD's or commercial radio as background music in a store, without paying royalties, you are violating US law! And, how much of their own stuff do you think Garth Brooks and Mariah Carey write?

Re:Japan isn't THAT different

[darkonc]

A number of years, in Canada, one label (Polygram, I think) tried to charge radio stations for the 'priveledge' of playing their songs on the radio. Campus radio stations rebelled and simply refused to play anything from polygram.

Polygram first offered to let them play 'alternative music' only without any royalties. The radio stations refused. Polygram finally relented and allowed free play for all of their music. I don't know if this has changed, but it clearly shows that music companies get more than their share of value by letting radio stations play their music.

As far as I know (in canada, at least), it is legal to play radio in a public place without paying royalties. The broadcast on radio is considered the public performance and the use of the broadcast is considered 'fair use' -- but if you pop in a CD, it's considered a new public performance -- which requires a royalty payment.

(this information garnered from a TV news story about someone being sued for allegedly playing CDs in his restaurant).

Re:Japan isn't THAT different

[URSpider]

I don't know if this has changed, but it clearly shows that music companies get more than their share of value by letting radio stations play their music.

Not in the USA, you have to pay to play. Check out ASCAP for details. Knowing how harmonized world IP laws are, I'd be pretty surprised if this isn't the case in Canada as well. Note, however, that the license is in terms of revenue, so college stations might get off for free.

As far as I know (in canada, at least), it is legal to play radio in a public place without paying royalties.

Again, check the link above, but the ASCAP license (USA) specifically forbids public re-broadcast.

Re:Japan isn't THAT different

[darkonc]

This was a number of years ago, so it's possible that music distributers have managed to beat radio stations into submission since then.

In Canada, playing the radio is royalty free (as of late last year). Taken on it's face, Playing a radiostation shouldn't classify as 'rebroadcast'. It may be a case of ASCAP bending the rules and daring some mini-mart to take them to court over it... I can, however, see it making those TV/Cable repeaters ilegal ( :-).

Slight correction...

[Anonymous Coward]

The kits comes with a 40gb hard drive... The memory card is mountable as a drive for convenience, but it's far from the only place to put your files. Try reading the FAQ: Linux (for PlayStation 2) FAQ

sounds good to me

[EliotR1]

i think it would be a great idea to have it cause then you could just buy the PS2 at that price and have linux.

sounds good to me

[USAharrypotter]

i think it is a great idea cause you can buy a PS2 for a fairly desent price and then you can have linux.

Re:The PS2 and the X-Box will both be sooo hacked

[muffen]

Before the end of the year we will have full access to all the hardware on both systems and have full system specs

I wish you we're right. However, with Sony going after the NEO chip creators and threatening to sue anyone else who decides to create modchips, Microsoft threatning anyone that has a dump of the X-Box BIOS to sue them, the DMCA and the European Union on the edge of getting a law similar to the incredibly stupid DMCA, I think I lack the hope you have.

a necessity?

[Terry Dignon]

i have been hearing alot about this recently and was wondering one thing:

Why is it necessary?

linux is obviously great as an operating system, but would it be a tremendous improvement on a gaming console? and if perhaps it did (i have no idea), then wouldnt games designated for ps2 have to be programmed for two different environments? the whole thing seems a little overblown to me, but i am probably not seeing the whole picture.

Do you really want to know?

[DaveWood]

What others have said, about attracting budding developers, is true, but it's not the real story.

The console industry represents a new revenue model for the "personal computer industry" - and it may mean the demise, or at least marginalization, of the PC in the home. You see, Playstation represents 40% of Sony's entire revenues (yes, Sony as in Sony music, pictures, VCRs, telephones, PDA's, computers, etc...). That's an enormous amount of money. And they sell those consoles at a loss for quite a while, too. How, you ask? Because every time a game get's sold, they get a piece of the action. They've used their hardware platform to become an indispensable middle-man, and it's making them filthy rich.

Microsoft, ever vigilant, realizes that a lot of their revenues come from home users, and only games really drive sales of home computers. Console game sales have been spanking PC game sales for some time - to the point where, in a few years, the PC game industry will find itself in a state of serious decline. If not for email, web browsers and word processors, not many people would buy PC's at all. And by the way, consoles, starting with the Dreamcast, are already doing email and web browsing.

It's simple economics - console? $200-300. PC? $500 and up. And for a good PC, that can play the latest games? $1500+. I'm sure you can understand why consoles have an order of magnitude more penetration than PC's.

Microsoft understands this, and that's why the XBox has a hard drive. The console is going to be able to surf and do email and IM and, eventually, do word-processing (USB/ethernet printers!), TiVO-like functionality, etc. etc. That's convergence, baby. And at that point it's replaced the home computer, and PC's are something you only see at the office or at a hobbyist's house. PC games will stop being ported to the console and start being ported from it, if at all (this part is well under way).

Sony is a threat to Microsoft - Bill earnestly wants to keep owning the "home computing" market. They want all those "home consoles" to be running Windows. They want to be the middleman for every game and application sale in the home. The XBox is a multi-billion dollar loss-leader predicated on this very notion.

Sony is a very smart company. They're savvy, they're well run. They know the score, and they have a big first-mover advantage. It's going to be a bloody fight. We know that Microsoft intends to make the XBox into a $300 home computer, based on Windows, to run "consumer applications" along with consumer games, and be waiting at the finish line when the race is over. In this round, Sony just introduced a prototype for _their_ consumer applications platform.

It's Linux.

Re:Do you really want to know?

[bartle]

Microsoft understands this, and that's why the XBox has a hard drive. The console is going to be able to surf and do email and IM and, eventually, do word-processing (USB/ethernet printers!), TiVO-like functionality, etc. etc. That's convergence, baby. And at that point it's replaced the home computer, and PC's are something you only see at the office or at a hobbyist's house. PC games will stop being ported to the console and start being ported from it, if at all (this part is well under way).

As I understand it, that was their original plan, but the PC manufacuers balked. They made it clear to Microsoft that it was in it's best interest to keep to operating systems and stay away from the complete package. Perhaps eventually Microsoft will be up for a war on that front but at least as far as the XBox is concerned, they gave in.

The result, it would seem to me, is that Microsoft will continue to encroach further into the home market but won't come out with the "total solution" unless they can guarantee it will be successful. If they were to leap too soon, they would effectively be declaring war on the whole rest of the computer and home electronics industry.

Re:Do you really want to know?

[_ganja_]

Not again. Every few years when a new console is released someone makes exactly the same statement, I'm not saying you are wrong it might well happen this time (especially with MS involved) but its been predicted on a regular basis for almost 10 years.... The PC is dead long live the PC.

Re:Do you really want to know?

[DaveWood]

Oh yes, absolutely.

They already have the hardware and software to do a "totally converged" XBox now; they held off on that because they want the XBox to win as a VG console first. If it loses, they haven't exactly broken with their retail partners - yet. But if it wins, or even comes in a healthy 2nd, then they're ready for converged XBox variants in the 2003-2004 timeframe.

Rock The Casbah

[curefree]

um... does anyone else remember when the PS2 first appeared there were some government concerns because they said a PS2 could be used as missile guidance systems...? with a proper OS available for it, doesn't this make it even easier for potential "terrorists" (merely playing a violent game will probably soon render you a terrorist in the eyes of the US anyway i guess) to put the PS2 to mischief?

Re:Rock The Casbah

[pixel_bc]

concerns because they said a PS2 could be used as missile guidance systems...?

Close, but not quite. The PS2 was restricted at first because it was faster then a certian MFLOPs rating at the time -- one that would cause it to be considered a munition (crypto implications). This is the same reason Apple got away with that G4/supercomputer nonsense.

The limitation has been removed since then by the US govt.

You call that an offensive link?!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now this is an offesive link!

Re:how they [TRY TO] limit it

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Its actually not "bad areas" that Sony is using with PS2 discs. They have encoded a sort of sub-signal onto the disc that bruners cannot recreate and more important, nor can asian "copy shops".

Ahem... Correction : "Nor -> COULD <- asian copy shops". I live in Brazil, and I just need to cross the street to buy pirated PS/2 games for less than 10 bucks. And guess where these CDs do come from??? Heard anyone screaming "Asia!!"?? :)

PS: Just to the sake of completeness: The Playstation and Playstation 2 don't "officially" exist in Brazil. Despite being the most popular consoles, every single one is imported, usually from the USA or Asia (my PSOne is from the USA). Since original CDs aren't sold here, the consoles are sold already "modchipped". Pirated CDs cost around US$ 2 each, double or triple disc games around US$ 5. The only way to get original CDs is to import, and pray that the customs don't classify them as toy or "game", thus putting 60% tax over it's value. That's how I've got my original copies of MGS and R-Type Delta.

Don't run Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

This is an exercise in stupidity. The PS/2 has
a perfectly fine development system w/o dragging
in a Unix wannabe.

This Linux sounded like a great idea until.....

[Anonymous Coward]

..I read about the restrictions. I am sick of
big businesses and their restrict everything additudes. But then too, why run Linux on a
PS 2 when you can build a low end PC that does
the same things(and more) for around the same price, and without all of the BS?

Sony should be held to the GPL

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony should be held to the gpl by linus, and forced to release the source. (Also what happened to the if you make a version available for sale it has to have as free counterpart. Anyone else see problems with a huge corperation getting a free pass through the gpl license

Pretty bogus ....

[taniwha]

I don't think sync-on-green is a terrible conspiricy on Sony's part .... it's very simple - the box has a TV output (not one designed for VGA monitors) - either composite/svideo or component - that means there's only 3 wires coming out of the graphics chip (usually YPrPb - but probably able to be warped into RGB by turning off the color space converter inside). There are no seperate sync signals like there are on a VGA style monitor.

Sony are doing you a favor - they're allowing you to use RGB output on a traditional computer monitor (but it has to support sync-on-green because there's no other way to get the sync out, not enough pins on the connector).

"Looking Closely" on Slashdot

[mikeage]

Am I the only one who finds that headline remarkably out of place?

...so poor white trash like me can have a Dev Kit!

[lugonn]

Since I can't afford or get into a university to get a "real" computer degree, this is the perfect thing to give someone like me some programming experience for a popular console. And possibly a game job so I can get out of this web dev nightmare.

I learned to program C on a console like Virtuality Elysium system(grandaddy of VR), and I miss it terribly. It was the best time I've ever had programming, becuase it was a simple API with no conflicts. Sure the quality sucked but it was real time 3D in 1994...with texture maps even! No PC card existed that could do that(you couldn't get it locally anyway).

this is what sucks about programming in an open standard for me...you have to support superfolous/legacy/'joe might still be using it'. With this, you have a targeted audience and you know their hardware, so you can program more efficently.

So now I can get back to what I wanted to do, VR on consoles. And since it's Linux, I can even make my own input/tracking devices! I hope my Sony Glasstron Headmounted Display supports sync-on-green!

Quit fussing about not being able to get at the hardware and cd-rom. If you want to hack hardware, buy a PC...you'll learn more. If you want to make small games to share with friends and get game programming experience, this is for you.

WILL RENDER FOR FOOD!

how noble...

[mallan]

So the jist of this article is that by running on a virtual layer, the things that you can do with it are restricted, e.g.

- you can't cheat games
- you can't pirate copyrighted material

Besides not being able to read audio CDRs, everything this guy mentions that you can't do with the PS2 Linux is either illegal or immoral. What a noble guy he must be.

How is running on a virtual layer a "shifty" way to get around the GPL? It's no more shifty that running Debian through VMware on Win2K.

Obligatory "DC R00lz, PS2 71nux suX0rz" post...

[MsGeek]

The more information comes out about PS2 Linux, the worse it looks. Why buy $300 worth of crap to make Linux run on an uber-proprietary system when you can buy a Dreamcast for $50 (if you can find one still) and have a platform that will boot Linux out of the box? You might have to avoid machines built after October 2000, (although there apparently is a further hack out to create a bootable disk for those machines) but I have one from 9/2000 and it booted the DC Linux disk right out of the box.

The exciting things will happen when someone builds a lightweight Linux booter that will address everything on the DC and allow you to run games designed for Linux. There is still some work to be done to make all the hardware work, but there are a lot of hands on this project so I suspect that it won't be long before the Yamaha audio, the Conexant controllerless modem and full video access (rather than framebuffer) are fully working under Linux.

SEGA is to be commended for releasing as much information as they have on the DC. Their attitude is also commendable: "we stopped making the machine in 2001, have your way with it." Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft have all demonstrated their lack of willingness to play ball with amateur developers. DC is the only game console which is actually FRIENDLY to amateur development.

One last thing...look at my .SIG. Sony is the only company I can think of that is a signatory to both the RIAA and MPAA. That's reason enough to stay away from Sony products.

Used book, etc., markets

[AndyChrist]

No, if those laws actually exist in japan, it doesn't eliminate anything. You can't swing a dead cat in a japanese city without hitting a used book store, or a used game store, or used CD shop...actually these shops usually sell all three. Hell, there are even large chains of these which would be incredibly easy to sue or otherwise deal with.

Re:The PS2 and the X-Box will both be sooo hacked

[sckeener]

Before the end of the year we will have full access to all the hardware on both systems and have full system specs

what are you smoking? PS2 has been out a year and nothing sigdig has happened!

now the xbox is another story. I could see ms releasing a crackable console just to win market share.

Re:Oi

[wysoft]

"What's that, you want something to do?" said the Man to Steve. "Go back to the counter and pretend like nothing happened. Go on, do it." As Dave turned around to head back to the counter, the man fired three silenced shots. SCHUMPF, SCHUMPF, SCHUMPF. Steve's body laid motionless in front of the counter.

ERROR!!! ERROR!!! ERROR!!!

Re:Your rant on openness

[Tofuhead]

Don't forget that the PC wasn't hackable by design. IBM used off-the-shelf parts because that was the cheapest way to go. If it hadn't been for Compaq reverse-engineering the BIOS, IBM would have been happy to leave the platform closed (until somebody else came along and did it). Don't forget the IBM PS/2 either, their attempt to reinstate their control over the PC architecture.

Hardware companies are just much more sophisticated nowadays than they were then, just like consumers. There now exist many more tools (technological, ideological, financial, legal) with which to fight their competitors/consumers and keep proprietary technologies closed. To big business, proprietary = $$$. Apple knows relatively well when and when not to apply this concept, and I hardly think they consider it "the wrong lesson" learned, since their attempt to open the Macintosh really just ended up biting them in the wallet while not really expanding the market.

< tofuhead >

Re:here's a mirror in case the site gets slashdott

[darkonc]

One of the differences (not mentioned in the excerpted bit) is that -- in the US and Canada, at least -- you can't fix a minimum price for selling something. A manufacturer can print a 'Suggested Retail Price' on the box, but if they try to enforce it, they'll get their wrist slapped.

Re:Your rant on openness

[spitzak]

Bzzt. Wrong!

The entire BIOS assembly code was printed in the manual for the IBM PC. The code was copyrighted so nobody could make a clone, but anybody could read it and use that information to program the machine.

What Compaq did was "reverse engineer" it by having the reverse-engineers ask questions of other people who could look at the assmbly code and answer the questions. They could also test things on a PC, but they could not look at the assembly itself. This was a legal workaround of the copyright and allowed Compaq to make a clone.

Re:Your rant on openness

[Tofuhead]

Yeah? Well, color me enlightened. Never owned an original PC manual or heard this bit of lore before.

< tofuhead >

Re:FALSE, it has never been cracked.

[Ryu2]

It wasn't cracked, but there are "corporate" XP versions floating around which don't require activation.

Re:Your rant on openness

[Kyro]

I have the PC/AT Technical Reference guide by Personal Computer Hardware Reference Library with a 1984 copyright from IBM and it had the full assembly code of the BIOS.

Anybody willing to sue Sony??

[darkonc]

As far as I can see, the Sony release of Linus is in violaiton of the GPL.

From the article:

This is how the Runtime Environment (RTE) works. In order to get Linux running on your PS2, you must boot the system using the PS2 Linux DVD. During boot, after all the copy-protection stuff is taken care of, the system lays down the Runtime Environment. This is basically a layer that hides access to the SPU2 (Sound Processing Unit), the input/output processor, the hard drive, the CD/DVD-ROM system, the controllers, memory cards, USB, i.Link and other peripherals. The RTE does supply hardware looking hooks, an educated guess being faux-memory address and registers. Then the Linux kernel is loaded onto of this. There are Linux device drivers that accesses the Runtime Environment that are open source, but it's just a device driver calling in all actuality, another device driver that's closed.

From the GPL:

These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it.

Given that their runtime environment is an integral part of the PS/2 Linux distribution, refusal to release the source code to the RTE would be a violation of the GPL -- and thus a copyright violation.

Any lawyers out there willing to support/fight my conclusion??

My guess is that taking on Sony on this issue -- besides having the prospect of being rather expensive if it actually went to court -- would probably have some interesting side effects -- both legal and media-wise.

The important questions

[Mandelbrute]

Can it still be used as an X-term via ethernet or firewire?

Can it do openGL?

Is there documentation about how to talk to sony's layer between linux and the hardware?

If the answer is yes to all above then it will be a very useful box. I don't see it as being in the intrest of sony or the linux community in having a kit that allows you to steal games.

I think a DVD with playstation linux with firewire support would be great - forget about the ethernet card and hard drive.

Let us decide whether the article is"interesting"

[Ross Finlayson]

It's bad enough when the Slashdot editors tell us whether or not an article is "interesting"; it's even worse when the author of the article tells us.

Enough of the hucksterism! Let us evaluate these articles ourselves.

Re:FALSE, XP was never cracked!!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

fag.

There are two DivX players for the DC

[nft]

here's a quote :

Dreamcast Media Player is the first usable DivX player for Dreamcast. Even though it's 'usable', it's still very early in development and doesn't yet support sound. It runs at around 20fps on 320x240 resolution, and already supports a few cool features such as zooming and bilinear filtering. Currently it only plays Open DivX files, so the common DivX;) 3.11 encoded files won't work. Even though this player is in very early stages, it shows a LOT of promise. Look for great things to come from the Thenesis group in the future.

that's from here : http://www.dcvision.com/dreamcast/multimedia/vidpl ayers.shtml

Chomp on that, sucka's.

Can PS2 Linux be used in Australia?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi there,

I've read that PS2 purchased in the US cannot be used in Australia. Is this true with the PS2 Linux?

Does anyone know?