Correlation is not causation. I'm sure I can figure out a correlation to the length of my toenail, but it really doesn't mean squat.
One simple explanation may be that older people have more time or interest to file a report (where younger drivers are more likely to simply blow it off).
Another explanation may be that there are more older drivers that purchased a new Toyota than younger drivers.
Another may be that it is something environmental (like temperature or humidity), and that particular environment is more populated by older Toyota owners.
Or perhaps the younger drivers are not experienced enough to recognize that a problem even occurred or were distracted by other things (music, friends in the car, talking on cell phone) when the even happened.
Perhaps when a younger driver made an initial report (say to a parent), it was not given enough credence (due to inexperience) to actually make a true report to Toyota.
You assume that the lights are controlled by a switch and a simple circuit and that's all. But it could be more complex than that, if the entire system is fly-by-wire (which it is). If the computer is somehow misreading inputs in a system such as this, then it certainly is possible that the driver has the brake on but no lights and no brakes.
My father-in-law had this problem happen to him in his Rav4 three times and told me about it months before the news or Toyota ever mentioned anything about it. Then they came out with the shim under the pedal, but this was really irrelevant to the problem he was having.
He describes it as he is sitting at a stop sign and the engine suddenly revs violently on its own and if you don't have your brakes on at the moment (which he did happen to have on) you could cause a serious crash by lurching out into the street into traffic. Said he didn't even have his foot on the pedal all three times.
Sorry, I just don't buy that it's driver error. I believe my father-in-law over Toyota or NHTSA. Afterall, he had no reason to make the story up (no crash happened) and certainly hadn't heard of it before then.
Don't dismiss people so quickly. My father-in-law had this problem happen to him in his Rav4 three times and told me about it months before the news or Toyota ever mentioned anything about it.
He describes it as he is sitting at a stop sign and the engine suddenly revs violently on its own and if you don't have your brakes on at the moment (which he did happen to have on) you could cause a serious crash by lurching out into the street into traffic. Said he didn't even have his foot on the pedal all three times.
Sorry, I just don't buy that it was driver error. I highly doubt he was just making it up at the time, because there was no reason to. No crash happened... but certainly could have.
My father-in-law had this problem happen to him in his Rav4 three times and told me about it months before the news or Toyota ever mentioned anything about it. Then they came out with the shim under the pedal, but this was really irrelevant to the problem he was having.
He describes it as he is sitting at a stop sign and the engine suddenly revs violently on its own and if you don't have your brakes on at the moment (which he did happen to have on) you could cause a serious crash by lurching out into the street into traffic. Said he didn't even have his foot on the pedal all three times.
Sorry, I just don't buy it. I believe my father-in-law more than Toyota or C/D. And I won't be buying a Toyota any time soon, either. And I think their handling of this problem has been deplorable.
My father-in-law had this problem happen to him in his Rav4 three times and told me about it months before the news or Toyota ever mentioned anything about it. He's been driving all over the state for decades for his job, and never had a problem mistaking the accelerator for the brake until now?
Then they came out with the shim under the pedal, but this was really irrelevant to the problem he was having.
He describes it as he is sitting at a stop sign and the engine suddenly revs violently on its own and if you don't have your brakes on at the moment (which he did happen to have on) you could cause a serious crash by lurching out into the street into traffic. Said he didn't even have his foot on the pedal all three times.
Personally, I think they'll find it's a sensor error caused by something simple like moisture condensate, or that -1 on an mis-calibrated pedal is interpreted as "open throttle."
Sorry, I just don't buy it. And I won't be buying a Toyota any time soon, either. And I think their handling of this problem is deplorable.
Now, you can either simply dismiss those stories of people having real trouble with this machine and chalk it up to statistical chance, or you can take those reports and try to identify a real problem. Well, in my case, I find the story more credible because of who it comes from.
My father-in-law had this problem happen to him in his Rav4 three times and told me about it months before the news or Toyota ever mentioned anything about it. Then they came out with the shim under the pedal, but this was really irrelevant to the problem he was having.
He describes it as he is sitting at a stop sign and the engine suddenly revs violently on its own and if you don't have your brakes on at the moment (which he did happen to have on) you could cause a serious crash by lurching out into the street into traffic. Said he didn't even have his foot on the pedal all three times.
Personally, I think they'll find it's a sensor error caused by something simple like moisture condensate, or that -1 on an mis-calibrated pedal is interpreted as "open throttle."
Sorry, I just don't buy it. And I won't be buying a Toyota any time soon, either. And I think their handling of this problem is deplorable.
say whaaaaaaaaa? It's quite clear that Mr. Obama is extremely liberal. More specifically, he is a progressive liberal. In fact, evidence points toward him being too liberal for the Democratic party. Perhaps you meant "he has to be a libertarian first"? 'Cause clearly he isn't that.
Please note that I did not pass a judgment as to whether I think this is a fault or not.
Oh, you're absolutely right. I wasn't suggesting that they try to do that on a live feed (perhaps there is a way), just that a notch filter isn't as clever as that technology.
uhm, it isn't THAT clever. Surprised they didn't think to do it already. Now Adobe Audition (ever since it was Cool Edit) had a noise filter where you can get a profile of the sound you want removed. Just highlight over a section of something, click the "get profile", then highlight the section you want to remove it from. Now THAT's clever. A notch filter? Not so much.
You've now converted percentages to the number of gallons it would represent in savings; still quite meaningless when making a purchasing decision based on the range of the vehicle. Here:
500 gallons at 2MPG, 200 gallons at 5MPG.
Gee I saved 300 gallons! (Even though I only get 3 more miles per gallon, it must be the best option! I'm saving the most!)
The article's math is silly. You don't look at the percentage of increase for the best gain. You look at the total gain. Going from 10 to 20 miles per gallon increases your range by 10 miles per gallon, an increase of 100%. Going from 33 miles to 50 miles increases your range by 17 miles per gallon, but is only an increase of 52%. And you still want to argue that 10 extra miles per gallon is somehow better than gaining 17? Nonsense.
So I guess if I have an SUV that gets 2 MPG and I can get it to go 5 MPG, that beats all the options?
Schools do regularly assert authority over students for actions occurring outside of any school event. For example, if it is found that student is drinking or doing drugs, even if it only happens off campus, I don't know a school around that wouldn't suspend them from the football team or the band or any other extra-curricular activity.
And I think the school has every right to do it, if that is the policy it has set in place. This is no different.
Even colleges and universities have been known to kick out female students for posing nude with School uniforms, though they were 18 and expressing their free speech legally.
I realize that on a straightaway covering 8 linear miles at those two speeds, your premise is correct. However, this is generally no real reflection of real life.
Where I live if you cover a straightaway of any appreciable distance, it's usually 60 miles or so (which becomes a difference of about 7 minutes).
But more profoundly, in city driving there can be many stop lights along a road that has a 45 MPH speed limit. Many people (for whatever reason) don't drive even the speed limit but sometimes only 40 MPH. Along my morning route, there are a total of 9 stop lights with an average cycle of 2 minutes (ranging from 1 minute to 2.5 minutes). My trip takes between 12 minutes and 30 minutes depending on which stop lights I get caught at. Often, I would not have had to stay an extra 2.5 minutes if the guy in front of me had just sped up slightly to 48 MPH.
Considering how few tickets I've actually had, and no accidents, and also considering I've actually been fired for being 3 minutes late before...
And anyone who works in the legal field knows that this is an abnormal thing that happened. I also suggest that there is more to that story, too. So just because the possibility exists that you could get sued for something because it happened to someone somewhere once upon a time, let's throw the baby out with the bathwater?
Remember when that lady sued McDonald's because the coffee was too hot and it burned her? Everyone over-reacted by serving cold coffee. Well guess what. They were making a decision based misinformation.
That particular McDonald's really did have their coffee too hot (it was in fact scalding 185F instead of 140F), and they had been warned about it many times before. Then, they did not secure their lids well enough to the coffee cups. So, when the lid came off, the entire contents of the cup -- scalding hot coffee -- spilled giving her 3rd degree burns all over her lap and genitals (over 6% of her body) that required skin graft and therapy in a hospital stay that lasted 8 days.
The lady offered to settle the claim for $20,000 and McDonald's refused.
So you have a case for unsafe conditions, neglect (they were fore-warned several times and did nothing), and you have severe personal harm as a result, and an uncooperative company. Well who wouldn't sue? I certainly would.
But the bottom line is that a lot of people made decisions on an event that was 1)rare and 2)had many more facts to it
I'm curious. Where does this "I can't really say anything" ideal come from? Is it just fear of a litigious society, that suddenly we can't use common sense when speaking to the public?
I assert that you may certainly tell the patron whatever you want; but as usual use reason and tact, and there is a right way and a wrong way. One might get you sued, the other not.
Wrong way: "Ahahahah! WHAT?! I don't think the fall of Rome resulted in angel creation! Hehehe!!!... that's a pretty good one. I'll have to tell Larry about that-- Hey Larry! Get a load of THIS!"
Right way: (give a thoughtful, considering look) "That's an interesting relationship between the two that I've not personally heard of. I'm not 100% certain, but I think you'll have a very difficult time finding literature here that connects those two together; but you might start here... and here... and here...."
I worked at a software firm that sold legal software. I heard time and time again "well, I can't give legal advice, so I can't help you find the form you're looking for." That's just ridiculous. Help the customer. But word your thoughts carefully: "I'm no legal professional, but it sounds like you might find this form of interest, maybe possibly this one, and I'm sure there are others that are relevant that I am unaware of."
Please make no assumption of my personal belief, I'm just having fun with the discussion.
If you change your definition of what God might embody, then maybe perhaps the concept of God is not so far-fetched possibility.
Could it not be said that God is really just an extra-terrestrial with powers above currently-known science? Perhaps even it is some being that is not necessarily "all-knowing" but has the ability to move through time and space to appear that way? (Give me the power to move through time and space as I please and I could pretend to be all-knowing also.)
Perhaps chronicled encounters with God are not even with the the same being each time, but entirely different alien species just with similar powers? Perhaps some are benevolent, and others are more justifying -- which would account for differences in things like Old Testament vs. New Testament? Perhaps some have ill-intent or want to destroy us, which would explain a Satan and/or demonic beings?
And with my definition, how is it a perpendicular belief or possibility to that of either science or religion? Or does the word "God" somehow imply something greater than that?
Why do employers pull this crap of "everything you create I own."
There's usually a little agreement they try to make you sign that gives them the right to do this. Now I don't do GPL, but my software is not exclusively owned by my customers either. So I just cross that thing right out on the page and tell them:
"I'm sorry, I cannot agree to this portion -- it would be impossible for me to abide by this agreement because I already have a large library of well-written and tested software functions and routines and algorithms that I use and share across projects outside of your business that my other previous customers have already paid for the right to use. And I am not going to sit in a chair and re-invent a SSN checking algorithm or a phone number validator simply because you want exclusive rights to it when the work has already been done, and been done better (I'm totally not interested in re-inventing wheels). But also in return you will someday get the benefit of something someone else previously paid for as well. So you see, I cannot possibly give you EXCLUSIVE rights to my work because they already don't exist. Now, I will be happy to provide you a license and/or right to use/sell the software I create, but this is simply the best I can offer."
They usually just initial the section I cross out and go with it. It's not worth a fight for them, and I won't take a job that would force me to do that. And I suggest you shouldn't either.
For networking, I got some of those PowerLine network adapters, that communicate using your home's AC wiring. I couldn't use wireless because it was too far away from my access point, and there was a bathroom in the way (lots of pipes I suppose).
Then I installed VNC on the thing, and now I can just load videos to it, start the video and by the time I walk into the other room, the video has started.
I'm just trying to point out that the majority of the population cannot really tell, and 128kbs is the current standard going bitrate when you buy online.
I personally like to encode things at 192kbs myself and when I market and sell my own junk from my own web site, I deliver in 192kbs (because obviously I want to sound my best).
I'm willing to bet, though, that you would rather have your music normalized, "flattened" (hard-limited or compressed) rather than have all your music at wildly different levels with full dynamic range. And it's what the studio does anyway before they put it to CD.
And be careful not to union all... Ensure all your selects are distinct and make your inner joins properly. (I prefer joining on the table, myself.) (Others prefer self-joining while viewing.)
Slashdot Mirror
Correlation is not causation. I'm sure I can figure out a correlation to the length of my toenail, but it really doesn't mean squat.
One simple explanation may be that older people have more time or interest to file a report (where younger drivers are more likely to simply blow it off).
Another explanation may be that there are more older drivers that purchased a new Toyota than younger drivers.
Another may be that it is something environmental (like temperature or humidity), and that particular environment is more populated by older Toyota owners.
Or perhaps the younger drivers are not experienced enough to recognize that a problem even occurred or were distracted by other things (music, friends in the car, talking on cell phone) when the even happened.
Perhaps when a younger driver made an initial report (say to a parent), it was not given enough credence (due to inexperience) to actually make a true report to Toyota.
I could go on all day.
The woman is right to be upset.
You assume that the lights are controlled by a switch and a simple circuit and that's all. But it could be more complex than that, if the entire system is fly-by-wire (which it is). If the computer is somehow misreading inputs in a system such as this, then it certainly is possible that the driver has the brake on but no lights and no brakes.
My father-in-law had this problem happen to him in his Rav4 three times and told me about it months before the news or Toyota ever mentioned anything about it. Then they came out with the shim under the pedal, but this was really irrelevant to the problem he was having.
He describes it as he is sitting at a stop sign and the engine suddenly revs violently on its own and if you don't have your brakes on at the moment (which he did happen to have on) you could cause a serious crash by lurching out into the street into traffic. Said he didn't even have his foot on the pedal all three times.
Sorry, I just don't buy that it's driver error. I believe my father-in-law over Toyota or NHTSA. Afterall, he had no reason to make the story up (no crash happened) and certainly hadn't heard of it before then.
Don't dismiss people so quickly. My father-in-law had this problem happen to him in his Rav4 three times and told me about it months before the news or Toyota ever mentioned anything about it.
He describes it as he is sitting at a stop sign and the engine suddenly revs violently on its own and if you don't have your brakes on at the moment (which he did happen to have on) you could cause a serious crash by lurching out into the street into traffic. Said he didn't even have his foot on the pedal all three times.
Sorry, I just don't buy that it was driver error. I highly doubt he was just making it up at the time, because there was no reason to. No crash happened... but certainly could have.
No.
My father-in-law had this problem happen to him in his Rav4 three times and told me about it months before the news or Toyota ever mentioned anything about it. Then they came out with the shim under the pedal, but this was really irrelevant to the problem he was having.
He describes it as he is sitting at a stop sign and the engine suddenly revs violently on its own and if you don't have your brakes on at the moment (which he did happen to have on) you could cause a serious crash by lurching out into the street into traffic. Said he didn't even have his foot on the pedal all three times.
Sorry, I just don't buy it. I believe my father-in-law more than Toyota or C/D. And I won't be buying a Toyota any time soon, either. And I think their handling of this problem has been deplorable.
You're being an ignorant tool.
My father-in-law had this problem happen to him in his Rav4 three times and told me about it months before the news or Toyota ever mentioned anything about it. He's been driving all over the state for decades for his job, and never had a problem mistaking the accelerator for the brake until now?
Then they came out with the shim under the pedal, but this was really irrelevant to the problem he was having.
He describes it as he is sitting at a stop sign and the engine suddenly revs violently on its own and if you don't have your brakes on at the moment (which he did happen to have on) you could cause a serious crash by lurching out into the street into traffic. Said he didn't even have his foot on the pedal all three times.
Personally, I think they'll find it's a sensor error caused by something simple like moisture condensate, or that -1 on an mis-calibrated pedal is interpreted as "open throttle."
Sorry, I just don't buy it. And I won't be buying a Toyota any time soon, either. And I think their handling of this problem is deplorable.
Now, you can either simply dismiss those stories of people having real trouble with this machine and chalk it up to statistical chance, or you can take those reports and try to identify a real problem. Well, in my case, I find the story more credible because of who it comes from.
Uh, no. Not driver error. Try again, Toyota.
My father-in-law had this problem happen to him in his Rav4 three times and told me about it months before the news or Toyota ever mentioned anything about it. Then they came out with the shim under the pedal, but this was really irrelevant to the problem he was having.
He describes it as he is sitting at a stop sign and the engine suddenly revs violently on its own and if you don't have your brakes on at the moment (which he did happen to have on) you could cause a serious crash by lurching out into the street into traffic. Said he didn't even have his foot on the pedal all three times.
Personally, I think they'll find it's a sensor error caused by something simple like moisture condensate, or that -1 on an mis-calibrated pedal is interpreted as "open throttle."
Sorry, I just don't buy it. And I won't be buying a Toyota any time soon, either. And I think their handling of this problem is deplorable.
say whaaaaaaaaa? It's quite clear that Mr. Obama is extremely liberal. More specifically, he is a progressive liberal. In fact, evidence points toward him being too liberal for the Democratic party. Perhaps you meant "he has to be a libertarian first"? 'Cause clearly he isn't that.
Please note that I did not pass a judgment as to whether I think this is a fault or not.
Oh, you're absolutely right. I wasn't suggesting that they try to do that on a live feed (perhaps there is a way), just that a notch filter isn't as clever as that technology.
uhm, it isn't THAT clever. Surprised they didn't think to do it already. Now Adobe Audition (ever since it was Cool Edit) had a noise filter where you can get a profile of the sound you want removed. Just highlight over a section of something, click the "get profile", then highlight the section you want to remove it from. Now THAT's clever. A notch filter? Not so much.
No, it's still dumb.
You've now converted percentages to the number of gallons it would represent in savings; still quite meaningless when making a purchasing decision based on the range of the vehicle. Here:
500 gallons at 2MPG, 200 gallons at 5MPG.
Gee I saved 300 gallons! (Even though I only get 3 more miles per gallon, it must be the best option! I'm saving the most!)
Derhherrherrherrrrr...
The article's math is silly. You don't look at the percentage of increase for the best gain. You look at the total gain. Going from 10 to 20 miles per gallon increases your range by 10 miles per gallon, an increase of 100%. Going from 33 miles to 50 miles increases your range by 17 miles per gallon, but is only an increase of 52%. And you still want to argue that 10 extra miles per gallon is somehow better than gaining 17? Nonsense.
So I guess if I have an SUV that gets 2 MPG and I can get it to go 5 MPG, that beats all the options?
Idiot.
Think again. Jurisdiction has no bearing here.
Schools do regularly assert authority over students for actions occurring outside of any school event. For example, if it is found that student is drinking or doing drugs, even if it only happens off campus, I don't know a school around that wouldn't suspend them from the football team or the band or any other extra-curricular activity.
And I think the school has every right to do it, if that is the policy it has set in place. This is no different.
Even colleges and universities have been known to kick out female students for posing nude with School uniforms, though they were 18 and expressing their free speech legally.
Yeah, but you're an idiot, so of course you'd think that.
I am replying to your sig. :-)
I realize that on a straightaway covering 8 linear miles at those two speeds, your premise is correct. However, this is generally no real reflection of real life.
Where I live if you cover a straightaway of any appreciable distance, it's usually 60 miles or so (which becomes a difference of about 7 minutes).
But more profoundly, in city driving there can be many stop lights along a road that has a 45 MPH speed limit. Many people (for whatever reason) don't drive even the speed limit but sometimes only 40 MPH. Along my morning route, there are a total of 9 stop lights with an average cycle of 2 minutes (ranging from 1 minute to 2.5 minutes). My trip takes between 12 minutes and 30 minutes depending on which stop lights I get caught at. Often, I would not have had to stay an extra 2.5 minutes if the guy in front of me had just sped up slightly to 48 MPH.
Considering how few tickets I've actually had, and no accidents, and also considering I've actually been fired for being 3 minutes late before...
Yes. I've done the math. It's usually worth it.
Me dont no why. U tell why Indians spell good, Kimosabe.
-Tonto
Oh, is that what you're calling it now... That is so perverted.
And anyone who works in the legal field knows that this is an abnormal thing that happened. I also suggest that there is more to that story, too. So just because the possibility exists that you could get sued for something because it happened to someone somewhere once upon a time, let's throw the baby out with the bathwater?
Remember when that lady sued McDonald's because the coffee was too hot and it burned her? Everyone over-reacted by serving cold coffee. Well guess what. They were making a decision based misinformation.
That particular McDonald's really did have their coffee too hot (it was in fact scalding 185F instead of 140F), and they had been warned about it many times before. Then, they did not secure their lids well enough to the coffee cups. So, when the lid came off, the entire contents of the cup -- scalding hot coffee -- spilled giving her 3rd degree burns all over her lap and genitals (over 6% of her body) that required skin graft and therapy in a hospital stay that lasted 8 days.
The lady offered to settle the claim for $20,000 and McDonald's refused.
So you have a case for unsafe conditions, neglect (they were fore-warned several times and did nothing), and you have severe personal harm as a result, and an uncooperative company. Well who wouldn't sue? I certainly would.
But the bottom line is that a lot of people made decisions on an event that was 1)rare and 2)had many more facts to it
I'm curious. Where does this "I can't really say anything" ideal come from? Is it just fear of a litigious society, that suddenly we can't use common sense when speaking to the public?
I assert that you may certainly tell the patron whatever you want; but as usual use reason and tact, and there is a right way and a wrong way. One might get you sued, the other not.
Wrong way: "Ahahahah! WHAT?! I don't think the fall of Rome resulted in angel creation! Hehehe!!! ... that's a pretty good one. I'll have to tell Larry about that-- Hey Larry! Get a load of THIS!"
Right way: (give a thoughtful, considering look) "That's an interesting relationship between the two that I've not personally heard of. I'm not 100% certain, but I think you'll have a very difficult time finding literature here that connects those two together; but you might start here... and here... and here...."
I worked at a software firm that sold legal software. I heard time and time again "well, I can't give legal advice, so I can't help you find the form you're looking for." That's just ridiculous. Help the customer. But word your thoughts carefully: "I'm no legal professional, but it sounds like you might find this form of interest, maybe possibly this one, and I'm sure there are others that are relevant that I am unaware of."
Please make no assumption of my personal belief, I'm just having fun with the discussion.
If you change your definition of what God might embody, then maybe perhaps the concept of God is not so far-fetched possibility.
Could it not be said that God is really just an extra-terrestrial with powers above currently-known science? Perhaps even it is some being that is not necessarily "all-knowing" but has the ability to move through time and space to appear that way? (Give me the power to move through time and space as I please and I could pretend to be all-knowing also.)
Perhaps chronicled encounters with God are not even with the the same being each time, but entirely different alien species just with similar powers? Perhaps some are benevolent, and others are more justifying -- which would account for differences in things like Old Testament vs. New Testament? Perhaps some have ill-intent or want to destroy us, which would explain a Satan and/or demonic beings?
And with my definition, how is it a perpendicular belief or possibility to that of either science or religion? Or does the word "God" somehow imply something greater than that?
Curiously, who do you think should be president?
Why do employers pull this crap of "everything you create I own."
There's usually a little agreement they try to make you sign that gives them the right to do this. Now I don't do GPL, but my software is not exclusively owned by my customers either. So I just cross that thing right out on the page and tell them:
"I'm sorry, I cannot agree to this portion -- it would be impossible for me to abide by this agreement because I already have a large library of well-written and tested software functions and routines and algorithms that I use and share across projects outside of your business that my other previous customers have already paid for the right to use. And I am not going to sit in a chair and re-invent a SSN checking algorithm or a phone number validator simply because you want exclusive rights to it when the work has already been done, and been done better (I'm totally not interested in re-inventing wheels). But also in return you will someday get the benefit of something someone else previously paid for as well. So you see, I cannot possibly give you EXCLUSIVE rights to my work because they already don't exist. Now, I will be happy to provide you a license and/or right to use/sell the software I create, but this is simply the best I can offer."
They usually just initial the section I cross out and go with it. It's not worth a fight for them, and I won't take a job that would force me to do that. And I suggest you shouldn't either.
WHAT DO YOU WANT, CUE?
I built a portable MAME box to connect to my TV, finally figured out it's also great for watching videos and DVDs from as well.
It's here if you want to see it.
For networking, I got some of those PowerLine network adapters, that communicate using your home's AC wiring. I couldn't use wireless because it was too far away from my access point, and there was a bathroom in the way (lots of pipes I suppose).
Then I installed VNC on the thing, and now I can just load videos to it, start the video and by the time I walk into the other room, the video has started.
No, I agree with you.
I'm just trying to point out that the majority of the population cannot really tell, and 128kbs is the current standard going bitrate when you buy online.
I personally like to encode things at 192kbs myself and when I market and sell my own junk from my own web site, I deliver in 192kbs (because obviously I want to sound my best).
I'm willing to bet, though, that you would rather have your music normalized, "flattened" (hard-limited or compressed) rather than have all your music at wildly different levels with full dynamic range. And it's what the studio does anyway before they put it to CD.
And be careful not to union all... Ensure all your selects are distinct and make your inner joins properly. (I prefer joining on the table, myself.) (Others prefer self-joining while viewing.)