The more of this they do the more they look like morons. The sad thing is not so much that there actually are people out there who believe this dribble. It is that some of them get elected to high political positions. I wonder how long it is before some bunch of corporate arse-kissing politicians and/or lobbyists decalare OSS to be the most evil thing since computer viruses and more likely to bring about the collapse of Western civilization and the American way of life than Al Quaeda?
The US did not hand over all of the Rosenholz files which is really irrelevant if what I have heard is true, that the SIRA tapes have now yelded a more complete index than the Rosenholz files. Even so I really doubt The BND/CIA/MI5 will make all of this stuff completely public. Some of it can still be useful, as in witholding information to ensure peoples cooperation=blackmail. Lives can still be ruined with this information.
... fell on its face on this count. After the German reunification the Bundesnachrichtendienst, (German Intelligence sercvice, BND for short) combed East Germany for hard drives because the STASI used to pass used ones on to state businesses and institutions. Apparently they were able to recover a fair amount of documentation this way. But the real score was that they found a set of tapes (the famous SIRA tapes) with backups of among other things an index linking agents to the STASI's library of coded agent activity reports which somebody had forgotten to flag for deletion. The problem was of course that the CIA had stolen the directory containing the codename key ie. directory of codename=agents-real-name (aka. "Rosenholz" files) before the BND got to it. So now the CIA knew who all the agents were but no more and the Germans knew how to find out what they were upto. Of course the CIA insisted that the BND hand over the database but refused to trade it for the codename key. Last I knew that request was flatly denied they have now settled on some sort of tit for tat exchange.
So the lesson is, after you whipe your disk, DON'T FORGET THE BACKUP MEDIA!
Everything I have read about Iraq's infrastructure states that it is a complete mess (think FUBAR). It worked poorly before the invasion (the difference?-people who criticized Hussein ended up dead......So, exactly what lessons from reconstruction Germany apply to Iraq?
So did people wo critisized Hitler. The lack of us resistance to the US occupation was to a large extent due to efficient US administration of Germany after the war. Civil servants were kept in office even if they had been party memebers as long as they were not war criminals. The problem of unemployment and civil discontent was solved by getting masses of Germans busy on reparing the infrastructure, rebuilding the police force from ex cops and soldiers ASAP after the allied victory helped enormously. It may not sound like much but it gave people hope. And perhaps most siginficant of all any acts by GI's of looting, maltreatment of civillians such as the practice of abducting women and raping them or beating people up in public was quickly stopped by formidable military commanders like Patton and Eisenhower. Moreover these things were not hushed up, justice was swift for any GI who did such things.
Contrast this with the disbandment of the Iraqui civil service because most of them were Baath party members even though they had done nothing else wrong. Disbandment of the Iraqi army and Police the bulk of which had also don nothing wrong beyond being Baath party members. Widesperead faliure to rebuild infrastructure which did nothing to alleviate unemployment and perhaps worst of all faliure to train US troops for occupation duty. The US amry is a fine filed force but you can not expect combat troops to take to police duty just like that. If that was the case we would not need polce schools.
To win the Iraqi's hearts and minds would have been alot easyer, if the US had taken the time to do things like fix gas mains, ensure access to water and electricity 100% of the time and if they had bothered to repair the telephone system. Had things like this been done right away even the impact of this abuse chrisis would not be half as bad as it is. One somehow gets the feeling that the Bush administration argued:
1. Invade Iraq. 2. Arrest Saddam. 3. Everybody cheers. 4. Sheperd the Iraquis to the oil pumps. 5. Oil profit. 6. Oil profit pays for buildup.
Unfortunately it has taken alot longer to get the Oil flowing than they thought and the rebuilding of Iraq has been half hearted which has resulted in alot of angry Iraquis. And in a way it is hard to blame them, I would certainy be pissed off if electicity and gas were rationed, I had to wait in line for 4 hours in the burning sun to fill a jerrycan with water and could expect to be harrassed by US troops on police duty that have had ZERO police training (not their fault but their leaders). You expect that during the initial period after an invasion but not after over a year of occupation. It is amazing that the USA which did a very good job at stabilizing Germany after WWII did such a lousy job at taking those lessons into account when trying to stabilize Iraq.
Put them on one side. Take the HMS Ark Royal, a small aircraft carrier from the modern Royal Navy. Put that on the other side. Which side wins?
The German in the Type XXI submarine packing active and passive SONAR, accoustic and wireguided torpedoes with power assisted loading, a truely effective whisper mode that defeats allied passive sonar and accoustic torpedoes and the capability to remain submerged for days on end? The Royal Navy got a very rude shock when they finally got their hands on one of them. Thankfully these boats came to late but they are the early ancestors of modern subs.
... little gray men standing on my doorstep preaching the holy teachings of 'Grgublob the great'?
That is still preferabele to little green men in combat suits packing hyperblasters and plasmaguns, ie. an alien version of Francisco Pizarros conquistadores. Fortunately as we all know from watching 'Mars Attacks!' all we have to do is play country music REALLY LOUDLY! I wonder if that will work on Alien Jehovas witnesses as well?
Politicians are always up the gaming industries butt (too violent, causes kids to be violent, etc...), so why can't the gamining industry get up the politicians butt??
Yeah! A first person shooter where the player is cast as a disgruntled IT worker whose job has just been outsourced to India. All the grunts would be low level politicians and corporate CEOs, the Sergeants could look like Berlusconi while Tony Blair, GW Bush, G. Shröder and Jaques Chirac are the level bosses.
Voulentary Self-Regulation by industry=Popular Republican political strategy. Basically a neat way of pretending to do something while actually ignoring the problem.
Columbus landed in the Americas and called the natives Indians because he thought he landed in India. That seems to have withstood time. Even the Indians didn't try to change that. Giving a random name to stuff kinda funny. Now we call a group of people African Americans, although non of them come from or have even traveled to Africa. The term is even used for people who are not even American. Amazing.
like Polish Americans, Italian Americans, Irish Americans or Israeli Americans (=Jewish Americans?)... the list of goes on. I don't mean to insult anybody but it seems every time I talk to a group of Americans I get the feeling nobody in America is just 'Plain American' anymore.
They also said that about Shlieman until he found Troy and Mycenae, and Arthur Evans until he excavated Knossos and rubbed it under the archeological establishments noses. The latest example is Frank Goddio who's discoveries in Egypt of the sunken city of Herakleion seem set to make some archeologists and historians eat crow. The point of this little lecture is that sometimes these guys actually get it right and anybody who ridiculed them ends usp looking very, very, dumb. In light of what happened to Herakleion and other sunkens cities found in the around the world it must be considered quite possible that (once you strip away all the modern new age crap about Aliens) the 'Atlantis' legend is based on a real event just like the events of the Illiad and the most convincing location for 'Atlantis' that has been suggested so far is the Mediterranean.
... India's outsourcing boom because corportations will soon be able to assemble 100% compliant personnel from off the shelf parts. Think of it, legions of mindless corporate drones who do not have to be paid a salary and can be recycled into hotdogs to feed the remaining workforce when they become redundant.
Sony has been pushing their proprietary "memory stick" which uses heavy drm called "magicgate" in all of their products hoping that the sheer number of devices they can put it in will give it a valid/default market base.
... must have found the source of all evil and drunk from one of the fountains in the lobby of the building with the catchy logo over the entrance.
It is a small wonder the owner of this url has not had his pants sued off yet. Perhaps somebody on/. is brave enough to set up 'inleague.withsatan.com' to point to the Sony website?
The problem is not just that this is an export of jobs for cheap labor, that is a short terms consideration. Unfortuantely in the long term this sort of thing is an export of knowledge, knowledge that we spend alot of money aquiring and that is now being pissed away by greedy corporate executives to boost profitmargins. It sucks to see valuable technology exported to keep a few greedy arseholes in silk shirts and sportscars.
... the future of that project. The absence of a natural moon which could have been modified a will certainly put a huge dent in G.W's budget since it forces him build from scratch the fortress-moon/deathstar needed to defend US intrests in the region. Then there is the matter of the pesky natives....
...they can't see the difference between a real threat to security in the U.S. and sour-grapes retaliation against Americans, I'll spend my money at home.
I think tourists around the world are concluding the same about travelling to the USA which only hurts the US economy and puts your countrymen out of work. America has raised the bar in these matters and Americans will be treated as they treat others. The European countries will eventually follow suit in these matters if only to defend them selves against the bomb tossing sons of Americas Middle east foreign policy such as America's faliure to see that Israels treatment of Palestinians is just as wrong as Palestinian terrorism. Americans are going to have to live with that just like everyone else. If you think that in the future, you as an American will somehow exempt from beign treated like a criminal everytime you cross a border you have another thing coming.
As the largest and most powerful nation on Earth, the US can do this. What amazes me is not that the EU allows it (what choice does it have?), but that it does not reciprocate. I'd like to see a special queue at Brussels airport where visiting American tourists are finger-printed, photographed, and generally treated like criminal suspects./me thinks the concept of "tolerance and personal liberty" would soon find a new meaning.
I agree, it really sucks how the US Govt. seems to think it can to to others with imputity what is a crime when it is done to their own people by other nations. But not all European countries are that docile. In my own country the Govermnent decided to install a security suite partly because of post 911 security demands by the USA and partly because of Shengen. This includes face reckognition system. The thing had been running for just under a month when the US embassy paid a visit to our foreign ministry to complain about the fact that US czitisens were being photographed as well as the the mere mortals. They demanded that American tourists alone among all visistors to our country be exempted from this. They got a very delicately formulated 'get lost' as an answer. It seems to me that if the USA wants to submit foreign visitors to draconian controls the practice should be applied to their own nationals with the greatest of enthusiasm.
I can only speak for my self but I REALLY HATE phones who make those pc-speaker type beeping noises, never mind the tunes. For some reason they annoy me immensely, the funny thing is that once I got my new Ericsson T610 which has a good quality speaker I switched it to an old fashioned bell ringing tone which for some reason does not bother me half as much as the beeping and those infernal showtunes and elevator-music classics.
I rather like the Internet function on my phone because it enables me to download E-mail when I am on the move. Apart from that the internet function is pretty useless. The Bluetooth innterface is a blessing however since my phonebook goes into the hundreds of contacts.
so...the batteries will be cheap, but the recharger will be the moneymaker? Am i correct in my assumption.
The proper format for this sort of troll is:
1. Design cheap rapidly rechargable battery. 2. Design obscenely expensive recharger. 3. Patent it back to front to ensure monopoly. 4. ??? 5a. Profit!
If Microsoft,SCO or RIAA are involved you might consider using:
5b. World domination, elimination of democracy and the enslavement of mankind!
If I remember correctly, one of the co-inventors of the first nuke was quoted as saying that it would mean the end of war, as noone would be crazy enough to use it.
That went out the window pretty quickly. If I remember correctly Truman turned down a serious suggestion from McArthur and elements of the US Joint cheifs during a dark period of the Korean war that the US should disuade China from furhter participation in the Korean conflict by Nuking over a dosen cities in China and N-Korea and if that did not work expand the war into China it self with liberal use of tactical nukes. One wonders how this would have ended if Truman had favored the current US president's "in your face" confrontational approach to everything.
Sure Microsoft is stagnated, all I have to do is compare MS Windows to OS.X on the desktop arena. Comparing the Windows Desktop enviroment to the OS.X desktop is like comparing a Muzzle loading musket to a leaver action Winchester carabine.
On the server arena the same goes for Windows Server and Linux. For one thing the Windows boxes suck up alot more manhours than Linux does both in terms of administration tasks and security. In the last 6 months exactly one machine in the pool of 22 Linux/AIX/BSD machines where I work got hacked (A Linux boxen) because of a PHP vulnerability. At one point or another during that same period all six of our Windows 2000 and 2003 servers have been hacked mostly due to Windows OS vulnerabilities and most of these Windows boxen were hacked more than once. If Microsoft is not stagnated how come I am having an easyer time keeping hackers of the *NIX systems including the one (Linux) which is designed by a world wide network of spare time coders? Well, one of the cheif reasons is the speed with which the *NIX crowd (Proprietary or OSS) fixes security holes and their concept of OS design and code quality. It seems to me that Microsoft expending a huge effort on OS development does not necessarily mean that there is no stagnation.
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The more of this they do the more they look like morons. The sad thing is not so much that there actually are people out there who believe this dribble. It is that some of them get elected to high political positions. I wonder how long it is before some bunch of corporate arse-kissing politicians and/or lobbyists decalare OSS to be the most evil thing since computer viruses and more likely to bring about the collapse of Western civilization and the American way of life than Al Quaeda?
Oops my bad! they already have...
I wonder is somebody is developing special medication for this crowd? It is a growing market...
The US did not hand over all of the Rosenholz files which is really irrelevant if what I have heard is true, that the SIRA tapes have now yelded a more complete index than the Rosenholz files. Even so I really doubt The BND/CIA/MI5 will make all of this stuff completely public. Some of it can still be useful, as in witholding information to ensure peoples cooperation=blackmail. Lives can still be ruined with this information.
... fell on its face on this count. After the German reunification the Bundesnachrichtendienst, (German Intelligence sercvice, BND for short) combed East Germany for hard drives because the STASI used to pass used ones on to state businesses and institutions. Apparently they were able to recover a fair amount of documentation this way. But the real score was that they found a set of tapes (the famous SIRA tapes) with backups of among other things an index linking agents to the STASI's library of coded agent activity reports which somebody had forgotten to flag for deletion. The problem was of course that the CIA had stolen the directory containing the codename key ie. directory of codename=agents-real-name (aka. "Rosenholz" files) before the BND got to it. So now the CIA knew who all the agents were but no more and the Germans knew how to find out what they were upto. Of course the CIA insisted that the BND hand over the database but refused to trade it for the codename key. Last I knew that request was flatly denied they have now settled on some sort of tit for tat exchange.
So the lesson is, after you whipe your disk, DON'T FORGET THE BACKUP MEDIA!
... downloading Linux is downloading COMMUNISM!
Shees! It sounds like the hard inner core of conservatve crackpots have finally discovered a replacement for Saddam Hussein....
Everything I have read about Iraq's infrastructure states that it is a complete mess (think FUBAR). It worked poorly before the invasion (the difference?-people who criticized Hussein ended up dead... ...So, exactly what lessons from reconstruction Germany apply to Iraq?
So did people wo critisized Hitler. The lack of us resistance to the US occupation was to a large extent due to efficient US administration of Germany after the war. Civil servants were kept in office even if they had been party memebers as long as they were not war criminals. The problem of unemployment and civil discontent was solved by getting masses of Germans busy on reparing the infrastructure, rebuilding the police force from ex cops and soldiers ASAP after the allied victory helped enormously. It may not sound like much but it gave people hope. And perhaps most siginficant of all any acts by GI's of looting, maltreatment of civillians such as the practice of abducting women and raping them or beating people up in public was quickly stopped by formidable military commanders like Patton and Eisenhower. Moreover these things were not hushed up, justice was swift for any GI who did such things.
Contrast this with the disbandment of the Iraqui civil service because most of them were Baath party members even though they had done nothing else wrong. Disbandment of the Iraqi army and Police the bulk of which had also don nothing wrong beyond being Baath party members. Widesperead faliure to rebuild infrastructure which did nothing to alleviate unemployment and perhaps worst of all faliure to train US troops for occupation duty. The US amry is a fine filed force but you can not expect combat troops to take to police duty just like that. If that was the case we would not need polce schools.
To win the Iraqi's hearts and minds would have been alot easyer, if the US had taken the time to do things like fix gas mains, ensure access to water and electricity 100% of the time and if they had bothered to repair the telephone system. Had things like this been done right away even the impact of this abuse chrisis would not be half as bad as it is. One somehow gets the feeling that the Bush administration argued:
1. Invade Iraq.
2. Arrest Saddam.
3. Everybody cheers.
4. Sheperd the Iraquis to the oil pumps.
5. Oil profit.
6. Oil profit pays for buildup.
Unfortunately it has taken alot longer to get the Oil flowing than they thought and the rebuilding of Iraq has been half hearted which has resulted in alot of angry Iraquis. And in a way it is hard to blame them, I would certainy be pissed off if electicity and gas were rationed, I had to wait in line for 4 hours in the burning sun to fill a jerrycan with water and could expect to be harrassed by US troops on police duty that have had ZERO police training (not their fault but their leaders). You expect that during the initial period after an invasion but not after over a year of occupation. It is amazing that the USA which did a very good job at stabilizing Germany after WWII did such a lousy job at taking those lessons into account when trying to stabilize Iraq.
stop humans aiming the accurate weapons at the wrong things...
...
I believe the correct US Army term for that is 'GI proofing' the weapon. Of course that comment came from a US Marine so
Put them on one side. Take the HMS Ark Royal, a small aircraft carrier from the modern Royal Navy. Put that on the other side. Which side wins?
The German in the Type XXI submarine packing active and passive SONAR, accoustic and wireguided torpedoes with power assisted loading, a truely effective whisper mode that defeats allied passive sonar and accoustic torpedoes and the capability to remain submerged for days on end? The Royal Navy got a very rude shock when they finally got their hands on one of them. Thankfully these boats came to late but they are the early ancestors of modern subs.
... little gray men standing on my doorstep preaching the holy teachings of 'Grgublob the great'?
That is still preferabele to little green men in combat suits packing hyperblasters and plasmaguns, ie. an alien version of Francisco Pizarros conquistadores. Fortunately as we all know from watching 'Mars Attacks!' all we have to do is play country music REALLY LOUDLY! I wonder if that will work on Alien Jehovas witnesses as well?
Politicians are always up the gaming industries butt (too violent, causes kids to be violent, etc...), so why can't the gamining industry get up the politicians butt??
Yeah! A first person shooter where the player is cast as a disgruntled IT worker whose job has just been outsourced to India. All the grunts would be low level politicians and corporate CEOs, the Sergeants could look like Berlusconi while Tony Blair, GW Bush, G. Shröder and Jaques Chirac are the level bosses.
Voulentary Self-Regulation by industry=Popular Republican political strategy. Basically a neat way of pretending to do something while actually ignoring the problem.
Columbus landed in the Americas and called the natives Indians because he thought he landed in India. That seems to have withstood time. Even the Indians didn't try to change that. Giving a random name to stuff kinda funny. Now we call a group of people African Americans, although non of them come from or have even traveled to Africa. The term is even used for people who are not even American. Amazing.
like Polish Americans, Italian Americans, Irish Americans or Israeli Americans (=Jewish Americans?)... the list of goes on. I don't mean to insult anybody but it seems every time I
talk to a group of Americans I get the feeling nobody in America is just 'Plain American' anymore.
They also said that about Shlieman until he found Troy and Mycenae, and Arthur Evans until he excavated Knossos and rubbed it under the archeological establishments noses. The latest example is Frank Goddio who's discoveries in Egypt of the sunken city of Herakleion seem set to make some archeologists and historians eat crow. The point of this little lecture is that sometimes these guys actually get it right and anybody who ridiculed them ends usp looking very, very, dumb. In light of what happened to Herakleion and other sunkens cities found in the around the world it must be considered quite possible that (once you strip away all the modern new age crap about Aliens) the 'Atlantis' legend is based on a real event just like the events of the Illiad and the most convincing location for 'Atlantis' that has been suggested so far is the Mediterranean.
... India's outsourcing boom because corportations will soon be able to assemble 100% compliant personnel from off the shelf parts. Think of it, legions of mindless corporate drones who do not have to be paid a salary and can be recycled into hotdogs to feed the remaining workforce when they become redundant.
Are we going to be bombed?
Shees, does this mean that I will have to fit my Linux boxen with a laser spoofer, missile warning system and an ECM pod?
Sony has been pushing their proprietary "memory stick" which uses heavy drm called "magicgate" in all of their products hoping that the sheer number of devices they can put it in will give it a valid/default market base.
... must have found the source of all evil and drunk from one of the fountains in the lobby of the building with the catchy logo over the entrance.
/. is brave enough to set up 'inleague.withsatan.com' to point to the Sony website?
It is a small wonder the owner of this url has not had his pants sued off yet. Perhaps somebody on
The problem is not just that this is an export of jobs for cheap labor, that is a short terms consideration. Unfortuantely in the long term this sort of thing is an export of knowledge, knowledge that we spend alot of money aquiring and that is now being pissed away by greedy corporate executives to boost profitmargins. It sucks to see valuable technology exported to keep a few greedy arseholes in silk shirts and sportscars.
... the future of that project. The absence of a natural moon which could have been modified a will certainly put a huge dent in G.W's budget since it forces him build from scratch the fortress-moon/deathstar needed to defend US intrests in the region. Then there is the matter of the pesky natives ....
...they can't see the difference between a real threat to security in the U.S. and sour-grapes retaliation against Americans, I'll spend my money at home.
I think tourists around the world are concluding the same about travelling to the USA which only hurts the US economy and puts your countrymen out of work. America has raised the bar in these matters and Americans will be treated as they treat others. The European countries will eventually follow suit in these matters if only to defend them selves against the bomb tossing sons of Americas Middle east foreign policy such as America's faliure to see that Israels treatment of Palestinians is just as wrong as Palestinian terrorism. Americans are going to have to live with that just like everyone else. If you think that in the future, you as an American will somehow exempt from beign treated like a criminal everytime you cross a border you have another thing coming.
As the largest and most powerful nation on Earth, the US can do this. What amazes me is not that the EU allows it (what choice does it have?), but that it does not reciprocate. I'd like to see a special queue at Brussels airport where visiting American tourists are finger-printed, photographed, and generally treated like criminal suspects. /me thinks the concept of "tolerance and personal liberty" would soon find a new meaning.
I agree, it really sucks how the US Govt. seems to think it can to to others with imputity what is a crime when it is done to their own people by other nations. But not all European countries are that docile. In my own country the Govermnent decided to install a security suite partly because of post 911 security demands by the USA and partly because of Shengen. This includes face reckognition system. The thing had been running for just under a month when the US embassy paid a visit to our foreign ministry to complain about the fact that US czitisens were being photographed as well as the the mere mortals. They demanded that American tourists alone among all visistors to our country be exempted from this. They got a very delicately formulated 'get lost' as an answer. It seems to me that if the USA wants to submit foreign visitors to draconian controls the practice should be applied to their own nationals with the greatest of enthusiasm.
I can only speak for my self but I REALLY HATE phones who make those pc-speaker type beeping noises, never mind the tunes. For some reason they annoy me immensely, the funny thing is that once I got my new Ericsson T610 which has a good quality speaker I switched it to an old fashioned bell ringing tone which for some reason does not bother me half as much as the beeping and those infernal showtunes and elevator-music classics.
I rather like the Internet function on my phone because it enables me to download E-mail when I am on the move. Apart from that the internet function is pretty useless. The Bluetooth innterface is a blessing however since my phonebook goes into the hundreds of contacts.
so...the batteries will be cheap, but the recharger will be the moneymaker? Am i correct in my assumption.
The proper format for this sort of troll is:
1. Design cheap rapidly rechargable battery.
2. Design obscenely expensive recharger.
3. Patent it back to front to ensure monopoly.
4. ???
5a. Profit!
If Microsoft,SCO or RIAA are involved you might consider using:
5b. World domination, elimination of democracy and the enslavement of mankind!
The Fire Scout will be flown by a computer operator using a joystick controller in the Combat Information Center
Finally!!!!! A military carreer for the overweight masses of X-box, Nintendo and PlayStation owning couch-potatos.
If I remember correctly, one of the co-inventors of the first nuke was quoted as saying that it would mean the end of war, as noone would be crazy enough to use it.
That went out the window pretty quickly. If I remember correctly Truman turned down a serious suggestion from McArthur and elements of the US Joint cheifs during a dark period of the Korean war that the US should disuade China from furhter participation in the Korean conflict by Nuking over a dosen cities in China and N-Korea and if that did not work expand the war into China it self with liberal use of tactical nukes. One wonders how this would have ended if Truman had favored the current US president's "in your face" confrontational approach to everything.
Sure Microsoft is stagnated, all I have to do is compare MS Windows to OS.X on the desktop arena. Comparing the Windows Desktop enviroment to the OS.X desktop is like comparing a Muzzle loading musket to a leaver action Winchester carabine.
On the server arena the same goes for Windows Server and Linux. For one thing the Windows boxes suck up alot more manhours than Linux does both in terms of administration tasks and security. In the last 6 months exactly one machine in the pool of 22 Linux/AIX/BSD machines where I work got hacked (A Linux boxen) because of a PHP vulnerability. At one point or another during that same period all six of our Windows 2000 and 2003 servers have been hacked mostly due to Windows OS vulnerabilities and most of these Windows boxen were hacked more than once. If Microsoft is not stagnated how come I am having an easyer time keeping hackers of the *NIX systems including the one (Linux) which is designed by a world wide network of spare time coders? Well, one of the cheif reasons is the speed with which the *NIX crowd (Proprietary or OSS) fixes security holes and their concept of OS design and code quality. It seems to me that Microsoft expending a huge effort on OS development does not necessarily mean that there is no stagnation.