First they ignore you, Then they laugh at you, Then they fight you, Then you win.
I'd say that we were at Stage 3 now, we were at Stage 2 last year and the year before.
Things are looking up!
Hmmm... are you talking about how Linux start out ignoring Microsoft, then laughed at it, then it was full out war against Closed Source Software replicating everything they did and making it 'free'...... in which case, the next step would be - if I've got this straight - Microsoft winning.
Compare a first rate developer game (like MGS2) to Halo (another first rate developer game). The difference isn't that big. Compare anygame made on both (like the EA sports line) and again the difference isn't that big. PS2 is technological inferior, but it's passable. And we're beyond the point were improvement in graphics have huge returns.
Hmmm... let's see:
MGS2 compared to Halo: 2nd or 3rd wave game to a 1st wave game that wasn't even initially designed for the system.
How about we compare MGS2 to something like Unreal Championship instead. Or Halo 2?
"Compare any game made on both"... that's because when they do a crappy port, they use the same art for both. But let's compare a few, shall we?
"Merrill Lynch has reported that our competitor was losing AU$100 per machine prior to their price cut, about the same as we were losing per machine when we launched PlayStation 2."
Can you produce for me a native English speaker who, seeing those sentences, will "presmue (sic) that they are talking about something-for-nothing"?
Similarly:
I breathe free air. I drink free soda. I use free software.
Can you produce for me a native English speaker who is not an OSS-using geek who, seeing thse sentences, will presume that they are talking about free as in liberty?
Allow me to help you out. It's a Science Fiction Museum, not a sci-fi musueum.
There is a difference, glaringly apparent to SF fen, yet imperceptible to those who nurse at the Glass Teat.
Ah yes. That difference is apparently that there are people who are not pedantically attached to unabbreviated words - such as me, who call it "SciFi" - and there are people who ARE pedantically attached to unabbreviated words, who also deride television as being a "Glass Teat". One wonders if they've ever sucked on a real teat to make the comparison. (Probably not).
You were correct in your assessment of Star Trek as sci-fi. It sure as hell ain't Science Fiction, which is a form of literature.
Science Fiction is NOT a form of literature. It's a genre of storytelling. Literature is only one single form of storytelling.
The Science Fiction museum, for example, features Robocop, Aliens, Terminators.... which certainly don't fit into your narrow worldview of what Sci Fi is.
By the way, anyone who calls themselves "fen", or calls others "mundanes", or who writes "filk" deserves to be taken out into the "forbidden zone", and disemboweled slowly using Ambrose Bierce's dictionary.
That way when I put the little bread soldiers in it, and they're frying under the dark, evil eyes of the toaster's innards, I can pretend that they're going to hell.
As is the toaster. But at least the Toaster knows what to expect in advance.
Caret browsing allows using the keyboard to navigate, a la Lynx. Again, for those of us who type fast, this is a massive improvement.
I'm not entirely sure which versions of IE you've been using, but you've been able to use the keyboard to do anything and everything in IE since at least version 4.0 - if not earlier.
Worse, I offered a polite and direct counter point and your response is to attack and avoid answering any of the raised questions. What a tiny mind you have.
Hmmm... maybe it's just me, but I certainly don't think you can claim to be offering a "polite and direct counter point" when you've already marked me as a "foe", and last time we debated anything, you acted like a completely idiotic gimp for the entire thread.
Suprised because he used the compile that ships with most linux distros?
That doesn't mean that Java is faster than C++. About all you can conclude from it, in fact, is that the C++ compiler that ships with most Linux distros can't optimize worth a damn and needs a lot of work.
I guess you're happy to ignore the fact that g++ is the defacto compiler on the Linux platform? You happy to ignore that gnu's compilers are used on the applications that just about everything else is benchmarked against.
You're just not happy with the results.
Frankly, I've not look at much code yet, so I'm trying to figure out if the benchmarks actually have any merit. But, dismissing them because you didn't like the results (which is what your excuse boils down to), is simply not fair. Ya, g++ is clearly not the fastest compiler but it is the compiler that most Linux applications are compiled with. Dismissing it because you simply want to, is what's not fair.
It's a benchmark. We're benchmarking performance. Compiling it with a compiler which is not designed to optimize well is NOT a good benchmark.
And by the way, this site is News for Nerds, not News for Linux Zealots. Java runs on Windows too. In fact, MOST if not nearly all Java code runs on Windows systems by sheer weight of numbers.
Besides... you've already proven in other threads that you don't know jack about programming, so please, butt out troll.
Intel's highly efficient optimizing compiler - at only $399 (much cheaper than, say Metrowerks Codewarrior at upwards of $5,000 for a license for the Coldfire CPU) - is a steal.
You can also sign up for a free trial of Intel's compiler if you so desire. Or at least you could last time I checked.
So no, there's no good excuse for running these test using GCC. The only reason to do so is ignorance, laziness, or to deliberately skew the results.
The main reason why kids make up data during labs is because they're making you verify Ohm's LAW over and over again.
That, and like in the real world, you don't just get scored based on experimental method - you get scored on whether or not the results are "right".
I never could get reliable results out of a wheatstone bridge. The thing must have been corroded or something. But if I didn't get Ohm's law out of it, I'd have been marked down.
So what should you do in such a circumstance?
Well, it's obvious. The law is known, and on the books. Obviously something's wrong with your set up. Conclusion: May as well fudge the data so that it's at least approximately in line with the real thing.
Why doesn't OOo load super fast under *nix OS then? It still takes a long time to load!
Well, in that case, either the *nix OS in question doesn't have the same app-loader optimizations that Windows does, or they didn't bother optimizing library loads on that version either.
What IS it with these people who think that the world should move no faster than their home town, population 357 (since old man Williams passed away last Thursday from a goiter complication), where all the kids are above average? If they want to live in such a place, then LET THEM GO THERE, GROW OLD, AND DIE QUIETLY. For the rest of us, things like the internal combustion engine and incandescent light bulb are just too important. I'm willing to pay the price!
It has something to do with the fact that for years, Linux zealots have been claiming that Windows is bloated, and you can run the latest version of Linux on a 386 with 2kb of memory.
It's nice to see those claims thoroughly debunked after all this time.
My conclusion: Windows doesn't have true position independent code, but has to actually patch the image instead of using a damn register like ELF does, doesn't have tools for finding an optimal base address, or even any way to rebase a DLL that needs it. cygwin has rebase, but that's for when relocation fails, not to prepatch.
Pretty stupid conclusion really. Windows has those tools, but they don't work if you don't use them.
As I said before, those who don't grok Windows are doomed to poor performance. Thanks for proving that you don't grok Windows.
At this point, you are hopefully at the right conclusion - MS Word is already mostly loaded when you clicked on it to run. Almost all MS apps preload large sections of the core functionality in a standard install to improve responsiveness once the system is up and running. Alas this approach is also taken by a load of other apps on Windows with the net result that even though the desktop in Windows XP pops up faster on boot than previous iterations of the Windows OS, it can often be a couple of minutes before the hard drive stops popping and thrashing and the system becomes quiescent (and usable).
Oh really?
Here's an experiment for you.
Download Process Explorer from www.sysinternals.com.
Load Open Office.
See all of those highlighted DLLs in the process tree? They're DLLs that the Windows application loader had to relocate because some idiot who doesn't know how to develop software for Windows decided that "hey, it can't be that hard", and didn't bother to learn how the operating system works.
This can increase your load time by a factor of 20. (Not to mention that they have many more DLLs than they should conceivably need - they went overboard on refactoring everything).
Now, the rest of the experiment. Do the same thing with MS Word.
Oh look! NONE of the DLLs are highlighted at all. NONE of them required relocation. NONE of them required the application loader to spend a lot of time repatching the image to a new address in memory. What's more is that you can now use BIND to improve load speeds even more - by a factor of 5 for each DLL.
Mozilla recently started making changes to do the same things in their builds. Guess what? Now, with Mozilla, you don't need to use QuickLaunch any more. And it's not because Mozilla is "pre-loaded" - it's because they finally woke up and decided that hey, Windows might just not work like Linux, and they should perhaps fix their app to work well on the platform they're targetting.
Conclusion: Those who don't grok Windows are doomed to poor performance. Those who are arrogant enough to believe that most Windows developers are jumped up VB programmers will write code that runs like shit on the Windows platform.
MS got caught cheating by using Stacker code they saw under NDA that they did not have rights to use
Really? Do you have any proof? The way I heard it, MS looked for a compression algorithm that didn't infringe on Stacker's patent, bought one, and then discovered later (in court) that the USPTO had goofed, and gave out two patents on the same technology - and Stacker owned the earlier one.
Read Ross Williams' site about the whole debacle. This claim that they "stole Stacker's code" is regurgitated urban legend at best, and needs to stop.
I've always found it odd at how the hacker community treats TiVo. There is little information or recent work on how to extract the video out of a TiVo box (except for extractstream), and don't even think about bringing it up on TiVo fan forums. In fact, those forums won't allow talk about removing the ads TiVo downloads into itself. I'm surprised at this. I'd think the "it's my hardware, how dare they download ads into it" mentality would win out.
The ads that TiVo downloads help support TiVo and keep them up and running.
They're one of a very small number of companies who are extremely customer focused, and who try to do right by the people who buy their stuff all the time. This needs to be respected and rewarded.
That, and they unofficially support hacking of their system to add capacity and features.
The reason the boards don't allow certain topics is so as not to sour that relationship.
A couple of people have mentioned Delphi. Maybe you did not notice, but Delphi 5 released in 1999 Takes comments typed in source code, of the form:// todo 1: blah
And converts this to a todo list idea subject=blah, with priority of 1.
hey wow... Microsoft Visual J++ 6.0 does that too... and that was released in 1998.
Slashdot Mirror
First they ignore you,
... in which case, the next step would be - if I've got this straight - Microsoft winning.
Then they laugh at you,
Then they fight you,
Then you win.
I'd say that we were at Stage 3 now, we were at Stage 2 last year and the year before.
Things are looking up!
Hmmm... are you talking about how Linux start out ignoring Microsoft, then laughed at it, then it was full out war against Closed Source Software replicating everything they did and making it 'free'...
reminds me of a screen shot I once saw of a funny error message when starting windows:
"cpu not detected. using software emulation"
Sure it didn't read "fpu not detected"???
Compare a first rate developer game (like MGS2) to Halo (another first rate developer game). The difference isn't that big. Compare anygame made on both (like the EA sports line) and again the difference isn't that big. PS2 is technological inferior, but it's passable. And we're beyond the point were improvement in graphics have huge returns.
Hmmm... let's see:
MGS2 compared to Halo:
2nd or 3rd wave game to a 1st wave game that wasn't even initially designed for the system.
How about we compare MGS2 to something like Unreal Championship instead. Or Halo 2?
"Compare any game made on both"... that's because when they do a crappy port, they use the same art for both. But let's compare a few, shall we?
Burnout 2:
XBOX screenshot
Notice how much clearer the XBOX graphics are.
Or if you want more proof:
PS2 version of Max Payne
Do you actually own both systems, or are you just posturing?
How does the XBOX make the PS2 look primitive?
Compare the graphics from both. (I own both, have compared, and the XBOX wins hands down).
List of consoles sold at a loss:
... yes, the Gamecube _is_ that cheap to make. Maybe that's why Microsoft "copied" the design for Xbox Next.
Sega Saturn
Sega Dreamcast
Microsoft Xbox
Hey, fanboy... real people back up their statements with EVIDENCE.
Like this: Sony loses AU$100 per PS2 sold
"Merrill Lynch has reported that our competitor was losing AU$100 per machine prior to their price cut, about the same as we were losing per machine when we launched PlayStation 2."
America is a free country. I am a free man.
Can you produce for me a native English speaker who, seeing those sentences, will "presmue (sic) that they are talking about something-for-nothing"?
Similarly:
I breathe free air.
I drink free soda.
I use free software.
Can you produce for me a native English speaker who is not an OSS-using geek who, seeing thse sentences, will presume that they are talking about free as in liberty?
Allow me to help you out. It's a Science Fiction Museum, not a sci-fi musueum.
There is a difference, glaringly apparent to SF fen, yet imperceptible to those who nurse at the Glass Teat.
Ah yes. That difference is apparently that there are people who are not pedantically attached to unabbreviated words - such as me, who call it "SciFi" - and there are people who ARE pedantically attached to unabbreviated words, who also deride television as being a "Glass Teat". One wonders if they've ever sucked on a real teat to make the comparison. (Probably not).
You were correct in your assessment of Star Trek as sci-fi. It sure as hell ain't Science Fiction, which is a form of literature.
Science Fiction is NOT a form of literature. It's a genre of storytelling. Literature is only one single form of storytelling.
The Science Fiction museum, for example, features Robocop, Aliens, Terminators.... which certainly don't fit into your narrow worldview of what Sci Fi is.
By the way, anyone who calls themselves "fen", or calls others "mundanes", or who writes "filk" deserves to be taken out into the "forbidden zone", and disemboweled slowly using Ambrose Bierce's dictionary.
Doctor Who - the longest running Sci Fi series ever.
Farscape - possibly one of the best Sci Fi series ever.
And NEITHER are represented in the museum, it seems.
What kind of crack are they smoking?
Oh right - silly me - if it ain't Robby the Effing Robot or Captain Kirk and Baldy Picard, it ain't Sci Fi.
Can you "click" a link (you know, the bread and butter of WWW) with the keyboard in IE? I'm not trolling, just curious.
Yeah - just tab to it, and then hit Enter.
That way when I put the little bread soldiers in it, and they're frying under the dark, evil eyes of the toaster's innards, I can pretend that they're going to hell.
As is the toaster. But at least the Toaster knows what to expect in advance.
Ahhh... now I understand the difference. Thanks!
Caret browsing allows using the keyboard to navigate, a la Lynx. Again, for those of us who type fast, this is a massive improvement.
I'm not entirely sure which versions of IE you've been using, but you've been able to use the keyboard to do anything and everything in IE since at least version 4.0 - if not earlier.
Worse, I offered a polite and direct counter point and your response is to attack and avoid answering any of the raised questions. What a tiny mind you have.
Hmmm... maybe it's just me, but I certainly don't think you can claim to be offering a "polite and direct counter point" when you've already marked me as a "foe", and last time we debated anything, you acted like a completely idiotic gimp for the entire thread.
Go away.
Suprised because he used the compile that ships with most linux distros?
That doesn't mean that Java is faster than C++. About all you can conclude from it, in fact, is that the C++ compiler that ships with most Linux distros can't optimize worth a damn and needs a lot of work.
I guess you're happy to ignore the fact that g++ is the defacto compiler on the Linux platform? You happy to ignore that gnu's compilers are used on the applications that just about everything else is benchmarked against.
You're just not happy with the results.
Frankly, I've not look at much code yet, so I'm trying to figure out if the benchmarks actually have any merit. But, dismissing them because you didn't like the results (which is what your excuse boils down to), is simply not fair. Ya, g++ is clearly not the fastest compiler but it is the compiler that most Linux applications are compiled with. Dismissing it because you simply want to, is what's not fair.
It's a benchmark. We're benchmarking performance. Compiling it with a compiler which is not designed to optimize well is NOT a good benchmark.
And by the way, this site is News for Nerds, not News for Linux Zealots. Java runs on Windows too. In fact, MOST if not nearly all Java code runs on Windows systems by sheer weight of numbers.
Besides... you've already proven in other threads that you don't know jack about programming, so please, butt out troll.
"So how much it could be?"
"something between your arm and your leg"
The MSVC optimizing compiler is a free download from Microsoft. So that's not much of an excuse.
Intel's highly efficient optimizing compiler - at only $399 (much cheaper than, say Metrowerks Codewarrior at upwards of $5,000 for a license for the Coldfire CPU) - is a steal.
You can also sign up for a free trial of Intel's compiler if you so desire. Or at least you could last time I checked.
So no, there's no good excuse for running these test using GCC. The only reason to do so is ignorance, laziness, or to deliberately skew the results.
The main reason why kids make up data during labs is because they're making you verify Ohm's LAW over and over again.
That, and like in the real world, you don't just get scored based on experimental method - you get scored on whether or not the results are "right".
I never could get reliable results out of a wheatstone bridge. The thing must have been corroded or something. But if I didn't get Ohm's law out of it, I'd have been marked down.
So what should you do in such a circumstance?
Well, it's obvious. The law is known, and on the books. Obviously something's wrong with your set up. Conclusion: May as well fudge the data so that it's at least approximately in line with the real thing.
Coming soon (on the B side):
Brucey in the Sky with Diamonds (isn't dead yet mix)
Why doesn't OOo load super fast under *nix OS then? It still takes a long time to load!
Well, in that case, either the *nix OS in question doesn't have the same app-loader optimizations that Windows does, or they didn't bother optimizing library loads on that version either.
What IS it with these people who think that the world should move no faster than their home town, population 357 (since old man Williams passed away last Thursday from a goiter complication), where all the kids are above average? If they want to live in such a place, then LET THEM GO THERE, GROW OLD, AND DIE QUIETLY. For the rest of us, things like the internal combustion engine and incandescent light bulb are just too important. I'm willing to pay the price!
It has something to do with the fact that for years, Linux zealots have been claiming that Windows is bloated, and you can run the latest version of Linux on a 386 with 2kb of memory.
It's nice to see those claims thoroughly debunked after all this time.
My conclusion: Windows doesn't have true position independent code, but has to actually patch the image instead of using a damn register like ELF does, doesn't have tools for finding an optimal base address, or even any way to rebase a DLL that needs it. cygwin has rebase, but that's for when relocation fails, not to prepatch.
Pretty stupid conclusion really. Windows has those tools, but they don't work if you don't use them.
As I said before, those who don't grok Windows are doomed to poor performance. Thanks for proving that you don't grok Windows.
At this point, you are hopefully at the right conclusion - MS Word is already mostly loaded when you clicked on it to run. Almost all MS apps preload large sections of the core functionality in a standard install to improve responsiveness once the system is up and running. Alas this approach is also taken by a load of other apps on Windows with the net result that even though the desktop in Windows XP pops up faster on boot than previous iterations of the Windows OS, it can often be a couple of minutes before the hard drive stops popping and thrashing and the system becomes quiescent (and usable).
Oh really?
Here's an experiment for you.
Download Process Explorer from www.sysinternals.com.
Load Open Office.
See all of those highlighted DLLs in the process tree? They're DLLs that the Windows application loader had to relocate because some idiot who doesn't know how to develop software for Windows decided that "hey, it can't be that hard", and didn't bother to learn how the operating system works.
This can increase your load time by a factor of 20. (Not to mention that they have many more DLLs than they should conceivably need - they went overboard on refactoring everything).
Now, the rest of the experiment. Do the same thing with MS Word.
Oh look! NONE of the DLLs are highlighted at all. NONE of them required relocation. NONE of them required the application loader to spend a lot of time repatching the image to a new address in memory. What's more is that you can now use BIND to improve load speeds even more - by a factor of 5 for each DLL.
Mozilla recently started making changes to do the same things in their builds. Guess what? Now, with Mozilla, you don't need to use QuickLaunch any more. And it's not because Mozilla is "pre-loaded" - it's because they finally woke up and decided that hey, Windows might just not work like Linux, and they should perhaps fix their app to work well on the platform they're targetting.
Conclusion:
Those who don't grok Windows are doomed to poor performance.
Those who are arrogant enough to believe that most Windows developers are jumped up VB programmers will write code that runs like shit on the Windows platform.
MS got caught cheating by using Stacker code they saw under NDA that they did not have rights to use
Really? Do you have any proof? The way I heard it, MS looked for a compression algorithm that didn't infringe on Stacker's patent, bought one, and then discovered later (in court) that the USPTO had goofed, and gave out two patents on the same technology - and Stacker owned the earlier one.
Read Ross Williams' site about the whole debacle. This claim that they "stole Stacker's code" is regurgitated urban legend at best, and needs to stop.
I've always found it odd at how the hacker community treats TiVo. There is little information or recent work on how to extract the video out of a TiVo box (except for extractstream), and don't even think about bringing it up on TiVo fan forums. In fact, those forums won't allow talk about removing the ads TiVo downloads into itself. I'm surprised at this. I'd think the "it's my hardware, how dare they download ads into it" mentality would win out.
The ads that TiVo downloads help support TiVo and keep them up and running.
They're one of a very small number of companies who are extremely customer focused, and who try to do right by the people who buy their stuff all the time. This needs to be respected and rewarded.
That, and they unofficially support hacking of their system to add capacity and features.
The reason the boards don't allow certain topics is so as not to sour that relationship.
A couple of people have mentioned Delphi. Maybe you did not notice, but Delphi 5 released in 1999 Takes comments typed in source code, of the form: // todo 1: blah
And converts this to a todo list idea subject=blah, with priority of 1.
hey wow... Microsoft Visual J++ 6.0 does that too... and that was released in 1998.