Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft's Magical 'Myth-Busting' Tour
Mz6 writes "Microsoft has launched its 'Get the Facts' road show -- the tech equivalent of a political battle bus -- to tour the country and convince the wavering that Redmond is as at least cheap and as secure as its open-source rival and to spread the word that Windows is better than Linux. Nick McGrath, Microsoft's head of platform strategy, described the campaign as 'a reality check we're bringing out', aiming to tackle the 'myths' surrounding Linux. Microsoft's road show will be in Edinburgh on June 17, Manchester on June 29 and Newport on July 7."
[stands on soapbox]
...um... nevermind, got a bit carried away there. :)
Tux for President! Penguins for software reform! Web browsers for welfare mothers! Put Bill on trial for his crimes!
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
"La-La-La-La-Myth-Busting-Tour!
Nick,
This word 'reality', I do not think it means what you think it means.
uhm. Me thinks we need a new definition of cheap here.
Cheap as in heineken ? Or cheap as in Duvel promo ?
When will I end this grieving ? When will my future begin ?
for the internationally-impaired, the tour is in the UK.
I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
Oh, wait...
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
We've tried switching to Linux, but have switched back because the costs of training were simply too high to justify it. Maybe it makes sense over a five or ten year span, but who is to say it'll continue to increase in viability in day-to-day use against Microsoft products?
I'll burn off some Knoppix cd's and Crash the party!
(will they have booth babes?)
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
linuxites, get your linux bumper stickers ready to stick...
Error: Id10t detected
RJR and Phillip Morris unveiled their plans for a traveling road show to promote cigarettes as an effective weight loss solution as well as a stimulant and antidepressant.
Interociter
-=What do I want? I'm an American. I want more.
Of course they will compare it to "Linux" but what distro? The Red Hat releases (most prevalent in US datacenters) come out of the gate with 0 ports open and having to turn anything you want on. This is going to be a difficult sell.
I was hoping this was going on in the US...it would be fun to attend. If only to jeer and heckle.
Hopefully some British LUGs will be on the case.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
I'm thinking stuff like .ogg, etc.
OTOH, if we want to play like msft who probably counts ".doc" and ".ppt" as file formats, we should probably count .fvwmrc, .bashrc, sendmail.cf as well. :)
Should be 'gut-busting', as in I busted my gut laughing.
I also reply below your current threshold.
>Redmond is as at least cheap and as secure as its open-source rival
Yes, and I am as at least rich as Bill Gates.
Andrej
Hello,
Windows is the best OS, you know. If you use it, you find it makes your mind processes improve all the time, it teaches you how to temple your nerves when something goes wrong (very often, I mean)... and it's much more beautiful (there's something magical in that funny blue screen, don't you think so?)
Muaaaaaaaaaks
--
You'd stumble in my footsteps (Depeche Mode, "Walking in my shoes")
Maybe Microsoft should "Get the Facts." Linux is open-source after all.
oh well, what kind of losers go to windows propaganda shows anyways
This is a load of FUD.
Microsoft want you to believe that while, Microsoft software may be more in the purchase price department compared to open source software, it's less in implementation costs or maintenance costs, and its TCO will be lower.
This is, of course, considering the plentiful viruses, worms and other security issues, not the case in reality. The winner in this case is Open Source software.
Open Source software, of the BSD kind and the GPL kind, has totally changed the way we think about and work with software. One day, we will be able to scientifically determine what software we need to suit our needs. We will know ahead of time exactly what limits and what capabilities each piece of software has. IT managers will be able to sort through real facts based on real research, rather than a bunch of shallow articles and biased reports. Software will survive on its merits alone.
The whole industry is going to benefit by this, in a large, large way. The question one day will no longer be "Microsoft or Linux?" but "Which Open Source software should we use, and why?"
Microsoft is severely threatened and it knows it. Pay no attention to it and it will eventually go away.
New definition of wardriving huh M$?
Error: Id10t detected
... and bound to be much more educational than this other one.
Magic School Bus
Besides, Ms. Frizzle be the schnizzle dizzle!
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Every day, Microsoft employees are physically in CIO and CEO boardrooms trying to convince executives that Microsoft is a better bet than Linux. Even with a large body of evidence to the contrary, this is something Linux is missing - the financial warchest to use the media and "war buses" to convince people to the contrary.
There's no such thing as reality - there's only what you believe. The best ideas in history of gone down because nobody believed in them. The worst ideas in history have flourished because somebody sold it stronger than anybody else.
So yeah, they may be spreading their own version of the truth, but, as is obvious, I think we should be very, very wary of that truth being accepted as reality.
This just in...
Apparently Microsoft's tour bus crashed because of a faulty driver.
Unknown host pong.
I agree they are as inexpensive as they are secure for all values of inexpensive = NOT.
...That the tour is taking place in Europe, where they were just slammed with HEAVY antitrust fines, and not the U.S. ?
To organize so that people give away free Linux CDs (Knoppix?) to the people attending these events?
Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!
DEVELOPERS Developers developers developers! I want you to go to Arizona, or New Mexico, or Oklahoma, or Delaware, or South Carolina, or North Dakota. Viva New Mexico!! YIIEEHAAA!!!!!!! -Steve Ballmer
"There is no spoon." - The Matrix
I've started my own little 'myth busting' tour. Decided this summer to get more procative at a grass roots level, locally, just converting a bunch of new people over to linux. So far I visited 3 internet cafes and got 3 positive responses, and one library and found they are already considering it.
Well, it's not much of a story I know, but getting out of the basement and actually approaching strangers and saying 'have you heard of linux?' is quite rewarding and interesting. Most of them have, and they are very hungry to know more.
"Our source code is our only intellectual property," said [MS spokesman] Barley
So have all of their thousands of software patents been invalidated, or are they about to donate them to the public domain?
Have you read my blog lately?
There is a new exploit every 2 weeks or so, or is it more often?
How many mail servers have to be taken down, viruses cleaned, etc. etc., every month, using how many people-hours of wasted time?
Thousands? Millions?
If they wanted to claim that Windows is easier to use, or more compatible, or something, then I could disagree without laughing out loud, but cheaper and more secure?
Give me a farking break!
Here is more coverage of the event with pictures.
It'll crash before it actually gets anywhere
Say what you want about cigarettes, I never wanted to strangle Joe Camel. Clippy on the other hand...
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
Read the report (2.12 MB Microsoft Word file)
Ironically if it wasn't for the pile of open source tools that can read that on my harddrive right now, I would have to go spend about $600 just to read this file (think OS+Office+new machine to run the OS).
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
I'm waiting for Gates to justify his pricing to home users and consumers.
If I was one of those guys who doesn't know there's anything but windows (who's to say I'm not?). This van strategy, like a lot of recent MS plans, would only serve to remind me that there is competition. Why would the undisputed leader of the software world need a van tour? Because they're afraid of something, i'd think.
Makes it easy to critique a straw opponent when you redefine the terms to mean what you want them to mean. Microsoft defines "free" as in "beer" and anyone who knows much of anything about Linux knows the "free" aspect of Linux that represents the most value, is the "freedom" aspect of the OS, not the purchase cost.
As long as Microsoft is comparing based on cost, they either just don't get it, or think they can bamboozle their audience.
On the other hand, anyone who is interested in a comparison based on the "free"dom-ness of the two OSes, will find the Microsoft presentation a complete non-sequitur.
I bet that their battle bus is really just one of those short yellow buses.
But if I was the big MS, in wake of the antitrust ruling, I would just pull the plug on EU Windows support instead of paying the fine. Say screw it, then drive the bus up their ass! WHAHAHAHAHA!
http://jayceecorder.blogspot.com
Definitely gotta love...
A) Novell buys a bunch of Linux companies and suddenly their executive is the authority on what open-source "is".
B) Nawwww. Oh, no, there's never any 'let's trash something someone else has done'! Perish the thought!
Speaking of which, Microsoft sucks, SCO sucks, Sun sucks, Apple sucks. Also: KDE sucks, GNOME sucks, Debian sucks, Red Hat sucks, 2.4 kernels suck, vi sucks, emacs sucks, Cowboy Neal sucks.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
As far as I'm concerned, they might as well drive around a bus that had painted on the side:
"Please don't fear us!
The is much uncertainty with Linux!
There is no reason to doubt our capabilities!"
Then people wouldn't have to sit though their stupid OpenOffice.org Presentation of the value of Microsoft products.
Ahhh... the smell of burning Microsoft is in the air!
Hey, I'm invulnerable to those jedi mind tricks!
If things continue as they are, this would only be a small obstacle for Linux and other alternatives.
I think, however, that Microsoft is just using as much marketing as they can to hold of Linux until Longhorn can come out. With .NET's browser apps, if they can just keep most of their current customers for the time being and transition them over to this, lock-in is assured.
Linux really needs a better graphics toolkit and GUI framework. Otherwise, people will be going with XAML a lot of the time. Hopefully something can be done about it. Hardware support is part of the problem, but the glitches in toolkits such as GTK+ and Mozilla XUL are also a big part of the problem. QT is crystal clear and lightning fast, but because of its licensing Sun isn't promoting a PLAF for QT. Too bad.
I think Trolltech should give serious consideration to the idea of putting QT under the LGPL. It would allow their platform to grow a lot, and they could start selling development tools and maybe extra controls instead.
In any case, Microsoft won't switch me, nor a lot of Linux devs over to Longhorn. I could see them making my job tough though.
I ordered a couple copies of the "Windows vs Linux Evaluation Kit".
One for "For Gondor Solutions". My job title in that company is Aragorn.
Another for "Mordor (the Land of Shadow) Development". My job title in that one is Sauron.
I wonder if they'll notice?
This tour isn't going be much of a success. Who'll be able to find the demonstrations? I don't even know what state those cities are in!
"Windows users have fewer vulnerabilities" it says is big letters and then under it: After collecting a year's worth of vulnerability data, Forrester analyzed Windows and four key Linux distributors on key metrics of responsiveness to vulnerabilities, severity of vulnerabilities, and thoroughness in fixing flaws. Not once to they mention how often or how many windows has. It seems like every month there is at least two. Sure M$ fixes them quick, but linux has maybe 2 or 3 in a 6 month period that are serious.
FuckTheFuckingFuckers.com - Post your th
Dear Mr. Brown. Please go get yourself a sense of humor.
MYTH 1) Linux is actually a pleisiosaur from the cretatious period living in a lake in Scotland.
FACT: Linux is an operating system kernel.
MYTH 2) In Mandarin Chinese, the phrase GNU/Linux, loosely translated, means "Bit the wax tadpole."
FACT: Linux is developed by hard working, intelligent programmers who submit their source code to a community repository, where fans of the operating system can retreive, adapt, and download the kernel at their leisure.
MYTH 3) In 1953, a saucer full of Linux crashed landed on a farm in Roswell, New Mexico.
FACT: Linux is used in solutions from many of the top software firms around the world, including IBM and Sun Microsystems. Because of its open codebase, it is easy to adapt to just about any hardware configuration without costly customizations.
MYTH 4) Douching with Linux directly after sex prevents pregnancy and/or veneral disease.
FACT: Linux installations make up as much as five percent of the desktop computers in active use, and as much as 80% of webservers.
MYTH 5) Linux is a quality server operating system but still kind of a shoddy platform for everyday usage due to a number of conflicting desktop standards, graphical toolkits and a tireless devotion to supporting underpowered legacy systems rather than creating a single, modern standard. Attempts to critique this obvious shortcoming are met with an intensely emotional tirade that neither solves the inherent problem nor serves to edify the critic.
FACT: Actually, this is entirely true.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Linux does have that now. Do you think IBM, Novell/Suse, and Redhat are just sitting around? IBM has gotten a bunch of big installations of Linux done. Novell/Suse just got McDonald's to test changing over it's POS's. Microsoft is not the only one doing this anymore.
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/facts/default.asp
3 50 - $1000 (no seat limit?)
Win2003 less then RedHat E3 or Suse8?
was it per copy or per seat?
per copy i can beleive
i find it hard to believe that windows won on the per seat.
http://www.redhat.com/apps/commerce/rhel/es/
$
http://www.pricewatch.com/
winServer 2003 5 seats - $150
winServer 2003 25 seats - $1150
so take a small business 100 machines plus servers.
windows - $4600 per server
redhat - $1000 total (for the uber delux edition, just to make it more fair)
To show that OS X is better than Windows AND Linux.
Let's say MS is right and it IS better than Linux. (Don't kill me, just play a long for a minute) Let's say that Windows is like a brand new Mercedes Benz, and that Linux is like an old Jeep CJ7. The Benz is going to cost you an arm and a leg... and eventually it's going to have problems and those problems can be very expensive as well. The old Jeep was like given to you... cost you nothing. Yet it can do everything the Benz can do... carry you and your stuff around just fine. Not as flashy as the Benz, but it works. If you need things for it, they are cheap and plenty and can be found in most junk yards and you can fix it yourself. When it comes down to serious work... I'm taking the jeep. Not only that, but an old Jeep is still cooler to gearheads than a new Merc.
MadOgre.com
The main reason, or at least one of them, that I believe BSD/Linux to kick M$'s ass all over the security arena is the AMOUNT OF CODE. Very simple concept! More lines of code = more mistakes. Mistakes very often = vulnerability. What the bloody hell is a GUI doing on a server anyway? Why does my server have a web browser?
....
The massive and monolithic nature of Windows and the way everything ties together makes it a horrible server OS and tells me that it will never get better until they scrap their PoS and start over. It's cheaper to just spread marketing FUD and hire lots of lawyers though
The Flatlander
This is so easy to make a joke about, I am actually having difficulty doing so.
Here are a few linux myths that need to be busted. The longer they are perpetuated the more it hurts linux.
1. Linux is unhackable: See recent OSS site hackings
2. Linux cant get viruses: It's only a matter of time.
3. Linux is always the best solution: Probably the worst of them all. While great as a server, on the desktop, linux is seriously lacking when compared to OSX or windows. This includes everything from software like quicken, photoshop, MS office etc. to hardware like digital cameras, scanners and most of all, PDA's (pocket pc). I suppose you can add in the inability to buy music online (with any service) as another problem. Suggesting linux all the time even when another OS is better suited for the task probably hurts linux the most
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
Any of you that have followed my posts know that I'm not exactly anti-Microsoft. I've had good experiences with Windows both as a desktop and a server OS. (On top of that, my first Linux based server was rooted within 2 weeks of installing it. More secure my ass.) Despite that, I still go "yeah right" when the claim is made that Windows is better than Linux.
In the desktop world, the major problem with Windows is the need to reinstall it every few months or your computer gets sluggish. In the server world, though I've had impressive up times (>6 months, for example) you really have to set it up right the first time, then never mess with it again except to install those MUST INSTALL NOW patches.
Microsoft has come a long way. It's pretty darned cool that you can set up a web server or mail server with Microsoft without really needing to get a lot of outside information. (At least up to the point of where you secure it....) Every year, they lock it down a little more. It really is a pity that I can't get Microsoft's interface with linux's functionality/reliability. Or... would a Mac server do that? Does Apple make that sort of machine/OS?
Well I'm just rambling now. Figured some of you might be interested to hear from a not-so-disatisfied MS customer.
"Derp de derp."
Redmond is as at least cheap
I still can't figure out how an operating system that is neither free as in beer, or free as in speech is "cheaper" then an operating system that is both free as in beer and free as in speech...
Did I miss something? Cost of linux distro = $0 (because you can get it for free, legally, if you choose). Cost of Windows OS = $200.
Now, the definition of "cheap" (in my book) is something that costs less then it's value. I just don't understand how $200 is considered "cheap" of an operating system that has the same value as an operating system that costs $0.
Either way I sure wish this was in the US because I would spend the entire time going to every stop asking the presenters how an operating system that costs money is cheaper then an operating system that is free. And I would pie the presenter in the face.
would read:
"All your bus are belong to us"
Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
OK lets put all questions in this thread so people who go there can ask them. :D
All they need to do is hand out Linux boxes to all the average users. Their competition worries will probably disappear.
I know nothing
Bring on the FUD-BUS!
Yes, that's subtle, comparing Linux advocates to Al Qaeda and Iraqi rebels. This is after Jim Allchin calling Linux a "destroyer", Ballmer calling it a "cancer" and so forth.
I take it as a matter of faith that Microsoft desires to destroy Linux. Part one is public relations, part two is getting the government to go after it.
It didn't escape my attention that the Alexis de Tocqueville Institution's Ken Brown is saying he's looking into the employment agreements of Linux contributors to see if any of the employers might own the copyright to off-hours work of Linux contributors. I remember a prominent case a few years ago where some developer wrote something after work and his employer sued him later saying it belonged to them even if it wasn't work related. The battle stretches from the workplace, to the government, to big business as far as I can see - the employment agreements wage slaves have to sign due to poor collective bargaining power helps lead to the destruction of Linux (or perhaps just a monkey wrench like the one that stalled BSD for years and years in litigation). It is already having an effect - Linus is spending time worrying about legal nonsense instead of developing the kernel. It doesn't just go away when ignored, Microsoft and company seem to desire some sort of primitive accumulation of the digital commons. The solution is to look into the OSDL and their Linux legal defense fund and that sort of thing. The travesty of employment contracts which comes in to haunt Linux has to be fought in workplaces. These people are playing for keeps. And it has already had an effect if you think about it.
Isn't Microsoft better than linux? Ouuch!, Stop that! Now dont throw that, AAAHH! man cummon! be serious! what, with microp....aaah!!, stop that! linux ROxs! .............eeeem.
We are the people our parents warned us about.
Well, maybe some local LUGs can follow the Microsoft Windows Carnival. Whenever Microsoft stops to tell the public how secure and cheap Windows is, the Linux people can instead give everyone LiveCDs and fliers claiming that Linux is infinitely more cheaper than Windows (which technically is true). Anyway, I hope I am not making this into another linux is better than windows or vice-versa thread, but then again this is /. ...
A LOT of companies have testbed installs out to see for themselves what the TCO is. You would expect them to believe their own results in their own company more than a magic MS fud-bus.
I'm also not so sure that the non-tech managers would appreciate the implied 'you wouldn't know good TCO or ROI if it bit you' message.
Is this because Microsoft sits on vulns longer to get more time, or does MS really release patches quicker?
Later on, it says that Windows has the highest quantity of critical vulns. This is because almost every network service runs in the SYSTEM account with tons of priveledges; either that or the kernel. WS2003 moves a few to lesser accounts, but it is too little too late. IIS can't run as anything but SYSTEM, with some of itself in kernel mode. Even the SMB file sharing service runs in a kernel mode driver (srv.sys). Microsoft needs to clean this up, badly.
I think it's really nice of Microsoft to go out and fund all these independent studies to determine the relative merits of Windows vs. Linux. I mean, because Linux is free and all, the opensource community can't really afford to spend the money to fund these complex studies by high-profile analysts and IT think-tanks.
But fortunately for us, Microsoft *can* afford to do so! It's really amazing how they can spend all this money on marketing, advertising, touring the countryside, etc., and *still* be more affordable than Linux, which has none of these added expenses. How do they do it?
Well, if I were Microsoft, I'd commission a think-tank to study the issues. But since I'm not, I'll just naively assume that they must find a way to pass the costs along to consumers and OEMs.
Come to think of it, that might also explain why it's Bill Gates--and not Linus Torvalds--who is worth billions of dollars. Hmm...
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Microsoft isn't going to talk about having the BSA stormtroopers coming to ransack your business, then forcing you to update all your software to avoid a lawsuit.
I think we should chip in and buy them, the neo-nazis, the fundamentalists of all stripes and the human cloners all the media exposure they want. In a few days they would be less than a trivial footnote, and stop annoying the real people.
Faith: n. -- That human impulse that drives them to steal appliances when the power goes out
There will be a large bus with the word MICROSOFT on it departing from Redmond, Washington. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find all onboard computers, re-install them with Linux, and place stuffed penguins in every nook and cranny. Alternatively, just blow it the hell up.
I for one would love to go along and toss a spanner or two in Billy's propaganda machine.. Couldn't find any details of the tour in MS' website, though.
As a concerned citizen of Edinburgh I for one will be quite happy to take a day off work and fly the flag (damn, where did I leave my penguin suit last time?). Anyone seen any more details of where and when? University or Edinburgh International Conference Centre is my best guess..
Any other Edinburgh residents going along, remember to keep an eye out for anyone from the City of Edinburgh Council. This isn't really the place to go into detail, but they waste more than enough of our council tax money on stupid crap already without giving it to these evil fucks..
Is good to see the candidates addressing issues at my hometown, this will help me to decide my vote.
Actually I don't like the guy in the tux because i hate "suits" and hippies (damn hippies) from the northwest are not of my like neither.
Negative publicity often backfires. How many candidates have launched this kind of campaign only to find their opponent gaining against them? If I went down to the BMW dealership and the salesman kept telling me why their car is better than Mercedes, you better believe I'd be checking out Mercedes real soon to see what had the BMW guy so worried.
This entire tour is 100% free publicity for Linux. To anyone undecided, this just establishes Linux as an alternative (and competitor) to MS Windows as an OS.
I was taking one day at a time, but then several days got together and ambushed me. (from a Rhymes with Orange comic)
Will it feature a bunch of stoned out hippies in a VW microbus?! I want tickets...!
Linux Users' Groups should follow the bus passing out CDs for free (or even just the cost of the CD). Challenge Microsoft to give out their OS. The LUG members should also hand out contact info and meeting times for their meetings - that way they can find out where to get good support as well.
Signs such as "Windows is CHEAP, Linux is Inexpensive." should be used liberally as well.
Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but copyright will always protect me.
"If we all work together as a team, we can insure that there isn't a single moment on the tour where there isn't a "Powered by Linux" sticker visible on the tour bus."
Better hope the bus doesn't repeatedly break down.
like I am going to believe a company that was found guilty of being a monopoly.
It is much easier to trust a cute lil furry penguin.
Keep in mind that Microsoft is a big organization, and while it is pretty clear that there must be people at Microsoft who are deliberately misstating the facts, there are probably also lots of people who genuinely believe that Windows is, in fact, better and cheaper.
MS Rep: Microsoft is now more secure than ever, not to mention our proven track record of security in the past.
Person 1: Hasn't your security been laughed at in the past?
MS Rep: Microsoft's NT and 2000 platforms set the ground work for our current XP OS.
Person 1: Maybe, but hasn't your Windows 95, and 98 OS's been nothing but trouble?
Person 2: Yeah and what about Millenium?
MS Rep: Windows 95 and 98 are just older and so are not supported anymore, I have no idea what this Millenium is you speak of.
Person 2: What are you talking about of course you do I have a install disk righ there.
MS Rep2: We don't know what you are talking about, security please escort this man out.
Person 3: Hay what about the bug reports on IE that occur every week.
MS Rep: Ok will security please escort out all the slashdot and wired readers, thanks.
MS Rep: So what do we think of MS now?
MS Rep2: I think its great
Ave Molech Setting
If there's one thing that Reagan has taught us, is that truth always beats falsehoods.
In this case, it doesn't matter if they show Microsoft ads on TV 24/7, have Bill Gates clones in every boardroom of every corporation, the simple fact that Linux is cheaper, faster, better, and more secure than Windows will be born out and win.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
Gee, I've got it all wrong since 1997. I've been stupidly replacing all my windows boxes with linux ones, and now I find out its costing my company a bomb. Its cost the company tons of dough to employ me, whereas I wouldn't be required if we'd stuck with the reliability of windows.
"Stuck".....synonymous with "Windows" since 1993
If you knew how a properly run Linux box runs, you'd know that viruses just don't work in the typical UNIX security model.
No, your Lindows experience doesn't count.
n/t
Drum Roll please!
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
All efforts, large and small, would be helpful. It's the unified, synchronus action that matters. It'd be like a linux-and-open-source-software-in-general-shaped psychic propoganda bomb.
We'll need a day, a tshirt and emailing of friends.
I like June 23rd.
Beat this mr gates.
THis is not my computer.
When I try to load the Get The Facts site in IE, it loads just fine.
When I try to load it under Mozilla Firebird 0.7, I get redirected to http://www.microsoft.com/info/customerror.htm, with the error "We're sorry, we were unable to service your request. As an option, you may visit any of the pages below for information about Microsoft services and products."
Doesn't only showing the page to the people using your product kind of beat the purpose?
Our political candidates do it and now Microsoft. Instead of busting the myths about Windows and showing the world how their product is better, their intention is go out and show how *NIX is worse. Now, I know Microsoft isn't the most ethical of companies in the world so I can't expect them to be front-runners here, but will we as a civilization ever reach that ethical ideal?
Stop the shmear campaigns!
What is your penile percentile?
Not that I particularly mind MS shooting itself in it's foot, but I really wonder if Microsoft is doing itself more harm than good by bringing so much attention to Linux. I know a lot of people who completely dismissed Linux prior to Microsoft making such a big deal out of showing it's competitive. I just wonder if microsoft is inadvertently drawing attention to the competition.
Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
Thanks Microsoft, this will raise the profile of Linux and bring it to the attention of more people, which is exactly what we need!
Hit the road Bill. And don't ya come back no more, no more, no more, no more. Hit the road Bill, and don't ya come back no more.
There used to be a site called alldas.de where crackers submitted links to the sites they defaced. Apache had, and still has, at least three sites in the web for each site based on a Microsoft server. Yet, when I checked, Microsoft had four defaced sites for each defaced Apache site in alldas. So, the practical reality says Microsoft is about twelve times more insecure than Apache.
So, None of the Microsoft claims are true?
Thats the feeling i get from all of these posts. They are half joke and half claims that Limux is better.
So did the companys that did the studies and comparisons just lying?
Seems to me that alot of the costs mentioned by MS were because of people who were unfamiliar with the OS. They needed training, more knowledgeable admins, etc.
What about the cost being High for the first few years of using Linux, then decreasing after more people are used to it.
I see these costs as kind of a up-front fee to get much larger benefits 3-10 years down the road.
Parent is mostly right.
1. There is not secure OS so claiming linux to be one is plain stupid and arrogant.
2. If root executes a malicious peice of code then your system will have a virus running around. Just because it takes more technical expertise to make a decient one doesn't mean it can't be done. Wake up.
3. Linux isn't always best.Linux is good for most things, but not always the best at them. If you can't see this then you need to get your own opinions and stop being a fanboy. Recommending a spanner (linux) when someone really needs a drill (other OS) won't help them appriciate the spanner will it?
I find it really funny that Microsoft feels the need to bust the Linux "myths." As I recall, most of the "myths" about Linux were started by Microsoft's FUD campaign. The myth that Linux has no support. The myth that no business applications are written for Linux. The myth that the GPL is "viral." Many of these were started by comments or press releases by Microsoft employees.
Nonono. It's a typo. It should read: Microsoft -goes- "cheep"!
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
...Microsoft has announced that FUD 2004, their flagship product, is almost ready for launch.
The U.S. Constitution needs to be ammended with a "separation of business and state" clause.
Might take a drive the 30 miles or so into Edinburgh and see what kind of drivel the M$ guys are spouting. After all, I have nothing to lose.
Get someone who knows Linux to install and boot the machine. Then fire him. You don't need anyone to look over a machine that never crashes and isn't vulnerable to security exploits.
I've put up my own site on MySQL and Access, at: http://enthalpy.homelinux.org/MySQL/
:)
I've got a couple of pages on setup instructions and code examples, and finally a cost comparison with a full Microsoft stack. The full Microsoft stack doesn't exactly come out on top... If anyone has any comments on the figures, feel free to respond - I want it to be at least as free of bullshit as Microsoft's "Get the Facts" campaign
Microsoft: You are not rock stars! You are computer nerds with more money than brains, and you're not fooling anyone, not even your mothers! Again, you are not rock stars! Get off the bus!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
There is no reason to be preaching to the choir.
Sometimes the material just writes itself.
Dawn of the Dead
I'd say the odds were pretty much zero.
The only thing that could save MSFT now is a fully operational death star.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
If it were really true that "that Redmond is as at least cheap and as secure as its open-source rival and to spread the word that Windows is better than Linux", then would they have to spend so much money to tour the contry telling people so? Wouldnt the product speak for itself?
Well, when they go against someone they call it Jihad, too. There were numerous jihads in the history of MSFT, and guess who won.
Just installed XP SP1. Next, go to Windows Update. Download critical updates. Install updates. Wait ... and wait .... and wait .... and wait .... and wait ... (disk getting one helluva workout, whirring away ... freeze. No updates installed. Is this what the party is all about?
oh man - this has to be the funniest bit of that microshaft site.
UNIX Migration: Improve Efficiency and Save Time
This really sounds like Micro$haft are getting seriously worried... think about it - if they weren't , they wouldnt be bothering with the anti-linux crusade.
Only problem was lack of citation for a report that was actually independent.
Actually, there are some things worthwhile to learn from these reports. For example: what percentage of firms use linux currently (46%) or plan to with next 12 months (14%) or no plans (39%). This may be important to you in realizing that use in actually companies is likely to pass 50% of all companies within the year.
I would not expect to see MS sponsored report say, "Wow, open source is really being successful in mainstream these days. You should probably consider a switch to open source in your company when in makes sense. For example: Consider replacing MS SQL Server with Postgress, MySQL or FireBird. Can save licensing costs and avoid platform lock-in too!"
I'll choke on my food when I read that in an MS sponsored report.
I would also be surprised to ready on LinuxToday that, "Under these conditions you should probably consider remaining an all Microsoft shop because your existing technology culture will make it painful to switch to Linux".
More importantly, I learned a long time ago, that the smart move for me was to read the oppositions literature. Their attacks are rarely completely baseless (some kernal of truth makes attacks more effective), and makes me better prepared on the defense to know how I'll be attacked and have thought through the implications. Admitting weaknesses and adressing them intelligently makes my presentation much more effective than mindless scoffing at the opposition.
"It doesn't mean bees can't fly, or that engineers say they can't fly. It just means that insect flight is very complicated and, even with computers, our fluid dynamic modeling techniques aren't yet able to quite handle such a complicated problem. Then there's the problem of verification. If you can't measure the pressures and velocities around a wing, how can you verify your calculations?"
At least says Dr. Galapagos
First of all, why is micro$oft so afraid that they have to put out a no-holds-barred, costly roadshow to turn people AWAY from linux?! It's obviously because they are worried that users might see the real truth, and actually find out that, hey, I CAN>/b> save my company loads of money by using open-source software. The whole thing stinks! *I am the anti-sig*
*I am the anti-sig*
The tour bus never left Redmond because it couldn't find it's drivers.
Today I experienced at least 10 occasions during re-installing Windows XP that XP could not find its drivers, even though they were in
C:\WINNT\system32\drivers
exactly where they should be.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that this is just slinging mud. I mean, how many people launch a campaign to tarnish the name of another competitor? I suppose I've seen ad's disputing competition, but a freaking bus tour?? The knoppix cd's are a brilliant idea. I wonder if distributing knoppix cd's to support the non-profit orgs would be considered community service......
Looking at the costs/benefits of linux vs windows realistically, its easy to see where M$ gets some of their flawed conclusions, because they aren't entirely flawed, just not the complete picture.
The initial software cost is much higher for windows that linux.
However, *nix systems generally require more technical skill than windows systems to manage.
That means *nix admins demand higher salaries.
Long term, the increased salaries are going to be more that the savings in software costs.
Unfortunately, this is where Microsoft's analysis stops.
In terms of the man hours spent, Microsoft probably assumes the use of every available centralized management tool that they provide, and assumes it to work correctly. In the real world,
administrators rarely make use of such tools for
servers, except in extremely large scale enviroments. They are too complicated to set up initially, too difficult to learn, and they break frequently, because there is almost nothing for windows thats designed to be unattended.
The nature of a typical linux enviroment however, makes centralized administration much easier, *IF* the administrator sets the systems up properly to begin with. Thats where a large portion of the cost savings for linux comes in. If you are managing more than a handful of servers and don't have central patch & software distribution, configuration management, and central monitoring set up, you are probably wasting time and money.
Now, lets look at the security issue. Out of the box, linux and windows are arguably equally insecure.
*nix administrators work deeper into the guts of the system, and have a better understanding of how things interact. Linux, and other *nix systems don't have the black box mentality of windows, so with someone understanding both the system and the security issues, a VERY secure configuration can result, all the potential exposures can be understood, and risks can be kept minimal.
On the other hand, with windows, you see what microsoft wants you to see. With their history of hiding security flaws, and with the complexities of the system hidden behind a pretty GUI, its quite possible that there are less than a handful of people even at microsoft that know how it works and really understand how things interact. (Keep in mind that Microsoft has reportedly employed a highly compartmentalized development process, with very few people being allowed to see the whole of any project. They apparently don't even know whats going on with their own software.)
Bottom line from a cost factor, if all you have are one or two servers running windows, and you don't have a compelling reason to switch, don't. On the other hand, if you have a large number of servers to manage, you may be able to find a reason to switch, but look at the costs and benefits REALISTICLY, and plan well so that you actually save money.
From a security factor, every piece of software will have flaws. Those risks are easier to manage under linux, but they will be there. If you expect linux to be a magic bullet that makes all your security problems go away, it isn't.
Finally, if you decide to embark on ANY migration, do your homework. Make sure you understand what your network and servers are doing, and what buisness processes they support. Be prepared for unexpected dependancies, such as users storing files on network shares where you don't expect, or applications that have to talk to a program running on one of your machines. Most of these interactions won't be documented properly, even in a tightly controlled network.
Plan your deployment carefully, and implement centralized controls from the start, so that you avoid having to micromanage each server on a daily basis. Set up maintainance schedules. Don't neglect backups. A well planned linux deployment will save you money in the long run. A poorly planned one will be a bottomless financial pit.
.. where's the Mac Zealot to demonstrate its superiority over humble computer users
Just looked over the lyrics to Magic Bus.
anyone clever enough to do a send-up to the tune of The Who's Magic Bus?
Yep, Howard Dean & Steve Ballmer must be brothers. Go monkeyboy, go!
Why do I have this? I don't smoke.
It's how filesystem corruption happens, when something causes the data to be written incorrectly, somewhere along the line.
If Microsoft is telling the truth about the end result of a business choosing their products is security and TCO equal to or better than Linux - the bottom line, so to speak - what a business will actually experience - then I fully support an individual's right to choose whichever software platform they think is best for themselves or for their business.
But if what happens here is that some data gets fed to potential customers, and those potential customers choose to choose Windows, and then five years later they realize that their TCO and their security was not what they thought it would be - the bottom line, that is - then the customers will realize that the data they were fed was wrong, and Microsoft will lose customers.
So in a sense, this is an experiment that will take perhaps a decade. If this information is not suitable or not of the accuracy and appropriateness necessary to help businesses make informed decisions about security and TCO -- the bottom line, the end result for the business -- then while Microsoft might make a sale today, the word of mouth and customer experiences in the future will do significant damage to Microsoft's reputation.
You see how so many people already don't take them seriously and how everyone makes fun of this already. If those folks are correct, which as it has been pointed out, the studies are comparing apples and oranges, then this situation is only going to get worse, and the computer illiterate will begin to not trust Microsoft.
So while it might be easy to fool a computer illiterate person once, it is going to be next to physically impossible to re-gain that person's trust once that trust has been lost. And if you think about it, I don't see how we can expect there to be only one major OS vendor in the world anyway. Maybe when computers were a new thing, when computers were just a new-fangled toy, but as computers become a part of our lives, and as computers become something similar to cars, something that we use every day and something that is a serious part of our everyday lives, I just don't see how we can move forward, given this widespread adoption of computers, with having only one proprietary OS vendor dominant. It's simply unrealistic.
It appears that MS is, unbeknownst to itself, laying the groundwork for a massive alienation of its own customer base. The way that they can prevent this, or at least mitigate it, is to tell the truth. But what IS the truth, and can they even say it?
Beware all you proprietary users and producers of such code your savior has come to your rescue. We are at DefCon 1 and all FUD missiles have been launched in a POST CODE response mode...... Whew! It sure took Bill long enough. I gots dollars in my pocket just a burnin' a hole in it.
My karma is not a Chameleon.
"Switching from Windows to Linux Prohibitively Eexpensive, Extremely Complex"
I did this 2 days ago. Rebuilding a fried box, reinstalling Windows took about 3 hours (including a 45 minute search for my legitimate license key), I had to constantly babysit the computer for a each prompt, and when it was finally complete, did not work properly. Rather than waste the rest of the night trying to troubleshoot the damned thing and get it all working I gave up, stuck in the Lindows cd I got for free, clicked I agree and started smoking a cigarette. Before I was done smoking the install was completed and was waiting for me to reboot. Now all I have to do is apt-get the programs I want to use (already using the windows version of just about every GNU/Linux software anyone needs on a pc) and I'll be done.
I'm kinda lazy and cheap, but not stupid.
Do I pick Windows (Pain in the ass to install, Hell to operate and protect, and expensive to buy and get support for, which needs to be periodically reinstalled when it stops working for no apparent reason)
Or do I pick Linux (easy to install, free to get, and millions of developers that give you the info you need to keep things going for free on a stable platform that can be trusted not to inexplicably decide not to work)?
-Yeah, I know I picked Lindows in this example, but I've tried installing other distros, and they were all easier and faster than the Windows Reinstall Hell I've been through many times.
-Yes I do still use windows, they have some of my important data locked up in some of their apps that I can't use without their platform. I've learned from this mistake and am going through the painful transition of RECREATING the info in opensource formats.
-Damn. That last one let me know that Microsoft is right. It really is a complicated, expensive and painful procedure to transition from Windows to Linux: Complicated because you have to free your info from their locked-down shitty closed source applications-usually fixing a crapload of errors generated by these same apps, wasting a lot of time(=money), and wishing you never made the mistake of using Microsoft crap in the first place (painful).
1.Netcraft confirms:In Soviet Russia all your base welcomes a beowolf cluster of CowboyNeal overlords. 2.? 3.Profit!!1!
For some people, lying is an art form. It's not just Microsoft; trying to get others to believe faulty views of reality is widespread in our society. For example, Enron, Tyco, and WordCom. Here's more, from the White House:
Got Lies? There's more documented here: Unprecedented Corruption: A guide to conflict of interest in the U.S. government
Well. Here you have it. A perfect opportunity.
Disclaimer: I don't like Linux much. The only reason I pay attention is the thorn in Microsoft's side that Linux represents. No matter how you slice it, it's darn difficult to compete with free.
The problem: Linux has usability holes you could drive an aircraft carrier through. Luckily, Windows is bad enough that even that doesn't matter as much as it should.
My advice? Go to the road show. Learn what it is that they think they're better at. Learn which of those things are the most important to their customers. And then, get to work: Do it better, preferably by the next day or so.
I see an opportunity. I hope you take it, because if you do, the day you can convince me (and lots of others like me) to become interested in Linux will draw measurably nearer.
Back to your regularly scheduled discussion of whatever it is that this post is about...
I find it highly amusing that Microsoft chose to use PDF files on this particular page when throughout the rest of their site they've pretended that Word documents are some sort of universal standard. Finally an admission by Microsoft itself that Word isn't the best format for publications you acually want EVERYONE to be able to read.
Go to the tour stops, and act responsibly while you pass out flyers, cds and hurl tough questions at the speakers...
Dont act like a bunch of idiots that came to heckle.
We all have a chance to make OSS look good and make a useful statment.. on Microsoft's dime!
---- Booth was a patriot ----
These jokers even had a hard time fudging their numbers. Take a look at Figure 2. "Low acquisition cost" is list twice, once at 86% and once at 1%.
... " LAAAAA la la la"
Also, from page 14:
"Forrester surveyed 140 large companies in North America" (read US, try surveying in Germany). And this tidbit is also listed as "Endnote 5". in the same page.
Somebody had a hard time copy-pasting from the MS-provided version of the report. The can't even fool us right!
Time to stick our fingers in our ears, and sing once again... "la la la la la"
Don't flame me but:
Seeing as IIS costs money and Apache doesn't I would expect IIS to be somewhat more popular on big comercial sites that serve a lot of pages.
Does anybody have any statistics for those?
Just in case this latest tour doesn't work, I'd like to offer some suggestions for Microsoft's marketing department for future promotions:
g ineer certification, which is in effect, a room where they strap people to chairs a la "A Clockwork Orange" and show them a never ending stream of Steve Balmer video speeches.
* Produce a study that reveals "Linux users have smaller penises"
* Include free Windows 2000 server license in new McDonald's Happy Meals.
* Purchase one of the Internet backbone providers and start refusing to process packets from non-Microsoft networks.
* Offer Microsoft-Certified-Linux-Professional-Systems-En
* Release "Windows For Linux" desktop which at first appears to be a window manager, but actually removes Linux and installs Server 2000.
* Start rumor that Linus Torvalds is a member of Al Quaeda.
* Get patent on common sense and free thinking and charge all Linux users with IP infringement.
* Update scripts of upcoming Star Wars and Harry Potter movies to show that Darth Vader and Valdemort are "powered by Linux."
Microsoft has their myths that Open Source is less secure, sends jobs to India, and supports every form of -ism from terrorism to communism to dada-ism
Linux has their myths that Linux is perfectly user friendly and just as easy as Windows and has been ever since the first edition of Slackware rolled out, and that Linux has absolutely no usability problems whatsoever and the only thing holding linux back from taking over the mainstream are evil proprietary companies who don't share their stuff.
It's hard decision on who to back when both sides are completely full of it.
Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
Nothing says 'oh shit, we're in trouble' like a big high-cost parade to make a system sound safe when it can be owned at the click of a hyperlink. Really, I don't see this doing anything but making it look like they're on their knees begging people not to use the systems that are kicking their butt. Sure, the public's gullibility is wearing off and Microsoft is clearly going downhill, but I think they just hit the accelerator.
I am NOT a number! I am a - oh wait, I'm number 761710. Look! 761710!
This Public Company is not featured by the young bucks, even though they do sometimes cover TSX Venture Stocks.
MS is really cheap or perhaps concerned but not concerned enough. They're sending out one bus to visit a few UK cities, when they could afford a fleet to mount a serious campaign.
One funny section from 'The Soul of a New Machine' (Tracey Kidder, 1982 Pulitzer Prize for non-fiction) details how IBM instructed their sales staff to warn customers about Data General.
According to staff at Data General this was the best advertising they had ever had (and they had some good advertising). As they told the story, quite a lot of IBM's customers straightaway came over to chat, saying, "IBM warned us about you guys; you must be doing something we ought to know about."
As Kidder put it, it was like: "Where is this 'Data General'? -- so we can be sure not to go there. What's their phone number? -- so we can be sure not to call it!"
Sorry, but the Linux followers use Linux because they have experienced it's benefits.. most have used Windows and Linux and chosen Linux. The only people left for Microsoft to convince otherwise are those that have only experienced/use Microsoft's "solutions". The more people learn and are exposed to Linux, the less attractive Microsoft will become. Don't worry.. no matter how much FUD get's bussed around, actual experience beats FUD hands down.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - The Celtic - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
It would be great for someone to bring a truck load of Linux distros, maybe even just Knoppix cds and pass them out to the crowd. If someone were to actually do this and maybe setup a paypal donation page I would chip in a few bucks to see that happen.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
...to show up at one of these shows and troll my ass off every chance I got.
...didn't have a bus that magical.
until you try to do something too complex for Windows to handle, like find a file of an exact name, or directories that contain some files.
Not to mention shell scripting capabilities, or the ability to handle files that are already opened, and other awful annoyances Windows has. Then there's the fact that when you're a developer, it is kinda frustrating you cannot fix those annoying things and other bugs, because the source is closed.
Sure its better.
Novell's Gaines, for one, isn't concerned. "It's good news. [The road show] validates Linux as a platform."
So, how many of you single-people can afford to take some time off to follow the bus and form an opposition during the presentations?
If enough people were polite, prepared and persistent in following up the talks to give the other side, maybe it could be de-railed?
Of course the Novell rep is right: the tour will only validate Linux as Microsoft's greatest threat.
Ruby on Rails Screencast
The thing that makes Windows easy to clueless users is that the little that those users know can be found on almost every other desktop pc as well. And the fact that it's forced on the users who buy a new pc.
Monopoly is a feature which Linux lacks and always will lack. Which is a good thing. Only Windows slaves attempting to taste freedom, but not capable of making choice, seriously think that the concept of distributions ought to be abandoned.
The battle between Windows and GNU/Linux is one between Totalitarianism and Democracy in cyberspace. Propaganda versus integrity.
I'm a zealot. A zealot of freedom.
I don't remember any other OS on parade.
1. First they ignore you,
2. then they laugh at you,
3. then they fight you, <--- you are here
4. then you win.
- Mahatma Ghandi
Steve Browning http://www.sbrowning.com
> What does it do well?
What does it do well and at what cost?
> What does it do poorly?
What does it do poorly, and whether it can be used until it gets to be good enough ?
I wonder if there is even a slight chance that this "tour" could bring to light some real weaknesses of linux (like that other posting yesterday about linux getting more bloated) so that they can be addressed, fixed, and dismissed.
It would be interesting to see how quickly the open source community could fix the problems and use the entire situation as a positive point for linux in the future.
Really? Actual experience? And where does your experience lie in these solutions? Name a few.
I bet I could counter it with a Microsoft solution with equal amount of uptime for about the same price. Then I can save your company money with a good admin for $60k a year instead of an overpriced unix admin at $80k.
Wait, wasn't it Linux that was saving us money?
* Responsiveness: On average, Microsoft had a fix available 25 days after a security issue was publicly disclosed.
Anyone who remembers the hoo-hah after Eeye had two critical security flaws in windows sitting on it's "unfixed" page for 100+ days [1] will raise an eyebrow at this - this got a mention in Schneier's Cyptogram newsletter (the reference escapes me). It also depends on what they mean by "disclosed" - did eEye disclose it when they said there's something wrong? Or does a bug only become "disclosed" when people exploit it? (If the second one is true, linux bugs have mostly never been disclosed!)
If one devastating critical bug remains unfixed for six months [2], maybe the rest make up for it - but that's still six months you could be hosed in (and probably will be - think nimda). That's assuming that (for example) they aren't just equating the really critical bugs with the "someone can find the first letter of your name if you're wearing a hat and it's a full moon" type of bugs. Also what stevey (64018) said - bugs that aren't exploitable (or maybe even commonly felt) in Microsoft products aren't exposed. Perhaps even some bugs are fixed over service packs without notification (info, anyone?)
[1] "Two of eEye's most dangerous flaws [...] fixes are overdue by 94 and 66 days respectively."
[2] "200 Days to fix a Broken Windows" - According to the list, two other serious flaws have yet to be patched, and it's been five months since the software giant was first notified of them.
This is supposed to be a speedy response? I mean, let's look at Microsoft's record with eEye:
(Dates are dates of patch, not report)
April 13, 2004: Windows Expand-Down Data Segment Local Privilege Escalation - 144 Days
April 13, 2004: Windows Local Security Authority Service Remote Buffer Overflow - 188 Days
April 13, 2004: Microsoft DCOM RPC Memory Leak - 216 Days
April 13, 2004: Windows Metafile Heap Overflow - 164 Days
April 13, 2004: Windows VDM TIB Local Privilege Escalation - 64 Days
April 13, 2004: Microsoft DCOM RPC Race Condition - 216 Days (Yes, this is seperate)
February 10, 2004: Microsoft ASN.1 Library Length Overflow Heap Corruption - 200 Days
February 10, 2004: Microsoft ASN.1 Library Bit String Heap Corruption - 138 Days
And it goes on!
The Math: (144 + 188 + 216 + 164 + 64 + 216 + 200 + 138) / 8 = 166.25
Average 166 days for important vulnerabilities! I think their accountant missed something along the way...
You all know this already. Now go make sure someone in charge of a major corperation or something knows as well. =]
Ok, let's start with page 5 of the LinuxWindowsSecurity.pdf. It states:
Responsiveness: On average, Microsoft had a fix available 25 days after a security issue was publicly disclosed.
That's from public disclosure... NOT from discovery. On page 4, we see a graph that states that the time between the discovery of the vulnerability and the disclosure of the vulnerability is a timeperiod of "theoretical vulnerability to exploit". Um, excuse me? Are you serious?
Anyone want to claim that the timeperiod that the iLookup toolbar was exploiting the latest problem in IE before the news broke about it is theoretical?
And does anybody else remember a few vulnerabilities that Microsoft sat on for months, insisting the discoverers don't mention it, before they got off their ass and patched them?
Responsiveness my ass!
Portable versions of Firefox, GIMP, LibreOffice, etc
to Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, and the rest of Microsoft, for not charging us for all the free publicity.
Bashing the competition isn't just bad manners, it's bad karma, and it's bad business. So I won't do it. I'll just say that Microsoft has recently stunned me with their generosity in providing free publicity for Linux. We truly have a friend in Redmond.
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
Except all the reports I've read show UNIX admins administering several times as many machines as your MCSE point-and-click mouse monkey...so your $80 UNIX sysadmin is actually being paid the same as four or five $50K mouse monkeys...
Oh, wait, you can script in Windows? Wonder why nobody does...
Maybe it's because it's so "command-line-like"?
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
So an operating system/kernel that grew organically and spontaneously from a community of hard core programmers has generated all kinds of myths about itself while Microsoft, a huge corporation with billions of dollars at stake, is here to churn out the real truth for us. Riiiight.
---Technology will liberate us if it doesn't enslave us first.
.NET for all its technical accomplishments is still not enterprise capable.
Biztalk, their famed EAI software, looks so nice from a developer's standpoint and is so fundamentally lacking in enterprise features that I've come to believe MS doesn't care about TCO, but rather, looking good in a demo.
Its too bad, too, because IBM still can't fight their way out of a paper bag, and oracle scares me.
Windows is CHEAP! Linux is FREE!
Windows is LOCK-IN! Linux is FREEDOM!
Add more signs/slogans below...
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
I just got done reading one of the papers on MS (R)'s "Get the Facts" thing, and I noticed that the amount of time spent on the survay was quite short. If it was going to have any value, the survay (about what OS is cheaper. etc.) should have been double blind and, not tell anyone it was going on. Not even Microsoft(R) should have known when it was going to happen.
I'm not going to yack (talk) all night about how Microscot(R) payed those "people" at Forrseter. However the approch to gathering the data was really bad.
Dude, I like giving credit where "credit" is due.(R)
I for one welcome NoData, our new Weird-Al-Yankovicesque-M$-bashing overlord.
The problem: Linux has usability holes you could drive an aircraft carrier through.
Yeah, well, at least you can still drive that aircraft carrier. By contrast, Windows NT has reliability holes that left the USS Yorktown dead in the water.
I know, this is a cheap shot, but I just hate that hackneyed "hole big enough to drive X through" cliche.
Running a 900Mhz dual Xeon Windows file server is cheaper than running a z900 mainframe Linux file server. You can't argue with facts, people.
(For those who haven't seen the ads, this is not a joke. MS is actually running an ad that states cost per megabit for each of those servers).
The global economy is a great thing until you feel it locally.
Shortly after the tour started the computers on the bus were infected with a worm and they had to be shut down while several Microsoft professionals were flown in from Redmond to get them up and running again.
The above is not true but it is easily believable and that is the said part.
Is it just me but wouldn't it be better if Microsoft released updates to the OS on a regular basis instead of patches after the horse has left the barn? It would much more effective than a propaganda tour, trying to convince someone who lost all their business records that Windows is secure.
This sig space intentionally left blank.
He said this "jihad about technology" between rival operating systems ignored the bigger problem that IT is badly regarded in the boardroom. "We need to better communicate the value of IT to business," he said.
Wow, he's admitted that his company's hype and poor performance has pissed on everyone.
Other than that, these "open and honest" Microsoft debates have the stink of a fake town meeting. The USSR had a few after Chernobyl and Bill Clinton never stopped having them. They were staged affairs with ringers in the crowd called to ask "insightful" prearranged questions. These questions were answered by a few talking heads who would blither on with distracting and meaningless abstractions, on the order of "wouldn't it be awful if we nuked the plannet." I can imagine the M$ equivalent, "we see your potential," (hand over your cash!) and, "Linux is Hanson's dissease."
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
the fat one shows up, hard boil them first
The patch for the patch hits, so it only kills 5% of the (seemingly identical) computers it's loaded on. If I want beta patches, I can apply them myself the night after the 'sploit. As for publically known vulns, MS has tons of uncorrected and publicly known vulns. Where they just counting stuff discovered then patched during the study? Fewest vulns? I suppose if you count every package in RHL and the vulns in them, you'd wind up with that figure.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
There is no way any country or any legislative body is going to pass legislation that will make it so that it will be legal to run only one operating system.
They can require certain things of operating systems just like they have certain requirements of cars, (e.g. every automobile must have a license plate, and catalytic converters need to be installed on every engine), but there is no way that they can make it a felony to use any other operating system other than Windows.
That is just simply not going to happen.
On JACK FM this morning they mentioned that tonight at 9pm (PST) FutureShop via this link will be allowing the first several (hundred?) thousand MP3 downloads for FREE. (thereafter they will charge $1 per MP3)
yeah I'm probably going to burn karma for posting this, but what the hell...
You're using her as bait, Master!
This show is hilarious! The first couple of case studies I thought they were serious but then I caught on - I've heard they'll be playing at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe. These clowns will make you laugh.
Any software acquirer should look at all sides of an issue, and not just take any vendor's word for how wonderful their products are.
- David A. Wheeler (see my Secure Programming HOWTO)
.doc and .ppt are FULLY supported on Linux,
just buy CrossOver Office and install
Office 97, Office 2000 or Office XP.
Why people bother with OpenOffice...
...it must be the $3 crack again... :)
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Linux isn't necessarily better than Windows. There are many arguments both ways. What we do know is that 99% of the people using Windows are complete morons who don't even password their admin account, don't download any windows updates, have no firewall, and are about as easy to hack into as a computer running an FTP server on its whole hard drive with full read/write unpassworded access. Linux is more secure because the people using it know how to make it secure. Not because of the OS itself. If average people used Linux, it would be even less secure than Windows, as the bug-hunters find enough bugs each week to kill a million unpatched linux machines. Which there would be if all the computer morons out there used Linux ;).
The only thing keeping Linux with the title of SECURE is that its far too hard for an uninformed user to install, so the only ones left using it are those who actually know how ;)
Cliche maybe, but:
"First they ignore you, then they attack you, etc..."
Looks like we've entered phase 2...
What Bill needs are the Harrisburg spin doctors.
'You know, today are systems are so secure, that the probability of being hit by the Love Bug, AnnaK, Code Red, Sasser, Netsky - really, it's so small that the likelihood that we got hit at all is - well, it's so small that we probably didn't get hit after all!'
In all the claims about Linux costing more than Windows, Linux costing less, etc... ...how do they work out the cost of freedom?
If Windows costs less than Linux then your freedom must be worth very little to you.
Windows comes with a free set of manacles; Linux comes with free liberty.
Comparing Windows with Linux is like comparing a major franchise's hamburgers with real homemade food.
I am anarch of all I survey.
I got my pass for the Edinburgh visit in the post the other day - should slashdot run the story again after the roadshow is over to see whether it was the same everywhere?
This is a short write up of the event. Alain Williams wrote it & .
...
received comments from Phil Hands and Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
The MS announcement
http://www.microsoft.co.uk/events/Ms EStdEventDisp. asp?params=fHx8fDB8bXNldmVudHN8MHww&EventID=80 61
****
All that you ever wanted to know about Linux but were afraid to ask.
Officially called:
20:20 Seminar Series: Microsoft Windows and Linux An open and honest technology discussion
How is MicroSoft presenting Linux to its customers ? We need to know so that we can be ready for
the challenge. MicroSoft is an important competitor, we cannot afford to ignore it, we cannot
just dismiss it with a smile of smug superiority
The undersigned were at the above MicroSoft presentation in London, England on 10 June 2004.
This is not a literal report, more an attempt to extract the ideas of what was said as sound bites.
There were some 300 delegates, about 90% wearing suits. MicroSoft was well aware that many
Linux types were present.
This was a carefully scripted event with someone acting like a TV chat show host. The banter and
'off the cuff' jokes (it is a good idea to keep your contact list of girlfriends protected from your wife)
were well rehearsed.
First part: presentations
Philip Dawson - Senior Program Director - Meta Group
. Open Office is incomplete and incompatible.
. Have to repackage when the kernel changes.
. Difficult to replace MS support with Linux equivalent
. Cost of ongoing integration & support
. Desktop:
* lacks ecosystem (exchange, active directory, office, 3rd party divers & apps)
* lack of admin tools
* requires ITO to do something
* desktop is about breadth, Linux is narrow
. Much of Linux uptake is Unix -> Linux migration, little Windows -> Linux
. The costs between Linux and Windows balance out when you buy RedHat/SuSE (Debian is
not suitable for the enterprise because there is no support).
. Should focus on services
. Problems with the different Open Sources licenses - if you want to base an app on Linux
you need to understand all the different licenses otherwise you will get into trouble.
. The Operating System is not comoditised, the battle is on the application stack, this
is where the focus is.
. Beware the corporate IP threat:
* You may loose control of your own written applications
* Liabilities from use of open source (eg SCO) (I think he said this)
. If you deploy Active Directory do not deploy Samba
. Moving shell scripts Unix -> Linux is difficult (ie so why not move to Windows)
. There is no hardware saving if you deploy Windows or Linux - ie the same number of boxes needed.
. He dismissed, as largely irrelevant, all hardware platforms other than Intel compatible ones.
. There were several other cheap jibes that showed ignorance but which would be taken
as true by many who are not familiar with Linux.
. Don't look at the TCO (Total Cost of Ownership), look at the ROI (Return On Investment).
. MySql is incomplete and does not scale. Don't compare MySql to MS-SQL, but it would be rude to MS Access
to compare MySql to it.
Nick Barley - Directory of Marketing - Microsoft UK
. Boardroom Boredom. Most boards don't really care about IT, they regard it as a cost that
never really delivers on what it promises.
. Why MS ? : "We make the complex simple"
. MS provides simple packages apps.
. "Its free v MS" is a not true headline, you need to look at the TCO.
. Linux cost has moved to the same as the MS model - RedHat charges now
. Ecosystem buzzword was used again, MS has a lot of partners: integrators, ISVs,
. With MS you get the software all from one place, with Linux if comes from all over,
he quoted Larry Ellison (I think) ''if you saw an airplane with wings made by differ
On that Micro$haft "facts" site, there's a Forrester report stating that Windows is more secure than Linux.
,RedHat AND Mandrake have responded to this - you can see their combined statement
here
Suse, Debian
They appear to be quite angry about this , as their security teams provided data and research to Forrester in good faith , only to find out that their data was discounted, and the Forrester research was merely a front for Micro$hafting FUD.
Quote: " Finally, the claim that one software vendor had fixed 100% of their flaws during the period of the report should be incentive for a closer investigation of the conclusions the report presents"
ooooh yeahhh..
WAR IS PEACE...
and then...
BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU...
I wonder if 50 years hence somebody might be wondering what have the world would've been like if somebody had shot Bill Gates...
... y Dios vio que Linux era bueno... Genesis 99.666
Yep, Linux has got it. Not really surprising, considering that bb4win is a port of it.
It's called "Blackbox" (with no "for Linux", as it's the original), and it has several forks (openbox and fluxbox come to mind)
to beat LINUX TIDAL WAVE
Our company of 12000 just moved from
Microsoft Office to Openoffice (Staroffice)
and we plan to move from WIN NT to a
Custom RedHat Linux before fall.
They are going to need something strong to make this one stick. They must be handing out LSD or making people smoke peyote before they enter. They must really be desperate.
Alex
...the bus comes to Finland :)
- Voice of Ambience -
Master of Transhuman:"Except all the reports I've read show UNIX admins administering several times as many machines as your MCSE point-and-click mouse monkey...so your $80 UNIX sysadmin is actually being paid the same as four or five $50K mouse monkeys..."
Yet another lie by the Linux crazies.
"all the reports You've read"?
Where did you see these report dude? In yourlittle make believe dream?
This is the real life. Windows Admins not only give far beter for value than Linux/Unix Admins, they are able to install, configure and administer far more machines than the very user undriendly, hard to set up Linux.
Only a fool will go use Linux for any serious server work. It invariably ends up costing far more than for Windows. Just go ask those American-hating clowns at Munich who chose Linux for political resaons and are now paying a heavey, terrible price for their stupidity.
This poses an interesting question:
When will the computers attacking IIS servers outnumber the servers themselves?
MjM
XKCD:Xeric Knowledge Comically Dispen
Wars where we stood *WITH* the UK:
WWI
WWII
Wars where we stood *AGAINST* the UK:
The Revolutionary War
"So while it might be easy to fool a computer illiterate person once, it is going to be next to physically impossible to re-gain that person's trust once that trust has been lost."
Nonsense. Microsoft will just tell customers it's their own fault. This optimistic view of the future ignores the past. This situation has been with us for a lot longer than the specified 10 years and people still go back to M$ for more.
Software is in the state it is because consumers either don't care or are actually believing M$ crud.
Just a thought...it would probably be a good idea to put a right-click menu option, "strangle," or suchlike on little widgets like "clippy" (and that helpful dolphin character...!).
A kind of psychological release similar to the "TV Brick".
P.S.: yes, I've heard that Joe Camel was deliberately designed to look "phalic" (and it is fairly readily seen). I gather that this is a fairly standard hacking-of-the-lower-brain-stem approach that advertizers take (in countries where you cannot just put a nekkid woman next to the product, for instance).
"Anybody can change the world, but most people probably shouldn't." -- Marge Simpson
$200 plus international phone charges per call and no positive solution guarantee vs google, then /join #debian - how's that for support costs?
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
ask them to duplicate that with Windows and IIS/MS SQL.
I can see you baiters in the audience, the ones with toothy grins when someone suggests they connect that nice new looking IIS/MS-SQL box to the Bad Old Dirty Virus-Ridden Internet....
Let's see some of that e-commerce in action!
"Provided by the management for your protection."
You would be surprised which companies care about the Freedom part.
Nobody takes lightly anymore to be dictated by an external company how, when and under which conditions you should migrate your IT infrastructure.
FLOSS in general and Linux in particular put IT consumers in the driving seat. That is what scares big conglomerates like MS used to call all the shots.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Although you make many valid and interesting points, many big companies (can't say, sorry) are already deploying Linux in both the desktop and the back office.
Why? Because the geeks are tired of Windows. And some geeks eventually wear suits.
That is why MS is on tour and is reduced to name calling and using pupets (SCO) to gain as much time as possible.
MS knows that the writing is on the wall (they can't be that stupid), there is nothing they can do to stop people sharing their own stuff (testament to how bad and "successful" the monopoly is: competition in a normal sense has been all but obliterated from the market, users have to provide their own tools in order to have any resemblance of choice).
MS is just trying to squeze the last bit of revenue from the current busines model while they are trying to figure out how they are going to adapt to the brave new world of Free software. They can either join the party or be left behind.
The big problem MS has is that Windows is no longer "cool" and that the suits are tired of knowing that every so often thousend of dollars are wasted patching Windows that could be better spent in actually getting work done.
Yes, issues with Linux have to be addressed, but frankly the last place where I think we shuld be looking for answers about how to improbe Linux is at MS roadshows.
They are lying to us, we know it, they know it, so I frankly fail to see how in such an environment we can obtain anything positive to help Linux.
Sorry but I chose to remain smug this time, I want to see concrete steps from MS towards openess, transparency and fair competition in order to give them any credence as genuine interlocutors in a technical dialogue.
If they want to convince the suits, they can go ahead, there are many of us, doing the daily work, doing the convincing in favour of Linux with cold hard facts that reflect themselves in the balance sheets of our companies.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
That is why the EU is fining them.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.