As much as you can say about X working across the WAN and performance issues or suckage,
A very large amount of real user experience of using remote x comes down to WHAT APPLICATIONS ARE BEING RUN.
I can run vi in an xterm from halfway around the world decently, but try running a GNOME or KDE desktop environment from 30 milliseconds away with ample bandwidth and almost everyone will say, "it sucks"
When using x across the WAN, GNOME and KDE desktops suck!
Try using something like twm with a plain xterm or fvwm and a plain xterm and compare that to a GNOME or KDE desktop with gnome-terminal. You'll be surprised how much better the remote experience is when you use a simple windowmanager.
Coral reefs and most underwater ecosystems where this contraption could be used are *very* fragile and endangered.
Have you even seen the damage done by a cruise ship dragging anchor across the ocean floor?
Have you even seen a 3000+ year old reef destroyed by some offcourse barge?
Do you know that most of the reefs at popular dive destinations are DYING?
The last thing we need are a bunch of inexperienced divers crashing these underwater vehicles into table corals, soft corals, and otherwise speeding up the demise of our fragile coral reefs.
Sorry dude, but as a Computer and auto gearhead, I've got to weigh in on this...
Building a PC and maintaining the OS is infinitely more *USER_SPACE* activity compared to rebuilding an engine in an old car.
I see a similarity, but for most people today, building a PC means getting a mini-atx case, selecting a processor, buying ram, buying a graphics card, buying a hard drive, buying a dvd-rom drive, buying some speakers, and then installing an OS.
Once the OS is installed, you patch, check for updates, patch, tweak, delete cruft, repeat ad nauseum, until your computer is so full of cruft that you need to start all over again.
With a car, there's so many more things to check, repair, clean, polish, restore, upgrade... and it takes skill, tools, and money... most of all SKILL and PRACTICE. Anyone can build a "mame" binary or a new linux kernel by following directions... but give a 'newbie' a dented door, bondo, and sandpaper and just watch the hilarity ensue.
There's no 'warez' scene that lets 16 year olds download superchargers, nitrous kits, racing slicks, sway bars, 10" disc brakes, complete interior upgrades, and new paintjobs.
You can't just uninstall and reinstall a dented quarter panel.
Binaries don't degrade after 100,000 miles.
For *most* people's involvement with computers, it's limited to a select few components and choices -- more akin to people who 'hot rod' their cell phones with flashing lights and new plastic covers, or people who think that a giant "r-type" sticker on their car makes it a hotrod.
I mean... how many hackers ever take a soldering iron to their motherboard today?
Component-wise, building and tweaking a computer is more like taking a touring bike apart, painting the frame, upgrading components, getting new tires, truing the rims, polishing the aluminum and putting everything all back together -- time consuming and technical, but a finite number of components.
In as much as the comparison between hotrodding computers and cars does hold true, the really interesting thing is that the cost of entry is much lower for computers, and in the linux world, the new goodies (software) are all freely available (= cheap hobby compared to cars)
Alas, it's much harder to get a group to admire your cool computer than it is to get a group to admire your cherry 60's American muscle car.... perhaps if your hotrod had a really tricked out computer in it, you'd have the best of both worlds:)
That is truly funny. I imagines a bunch of people working at large paper mega-corporations designing the floral prints and quilted stitching patterns using photoshop with CYMK color separations... and then I imagined some small linux-based toilet-paper company crowing about the virtues about being able to replace photoshop with GIMP for toiletpaper design.... or imagine feeding a roll of TP into your printer and printing custom designs ???
then how come there are production versions of Windows xp-64 itanic and win 2003-64 itanic, when there is still only a developer release of Win 2003 amd64?
So.. the solution to the no feedback keyboard issue is to have the keyboard projector project down onto a rubberized keyboard map that rolls up. This way, you've got your feedback problem solved, and everyone will be happy using it.
The only real function of Live CDs in the enterprise is provide exposure to Linux to people with no risk.
The enterprise version of "live CD" is called PXE boot of a network OS install.
Change a bios setting and your computer boots off of the network.
Also, in the enterprise, where you have homedirectory servers, shared application servers,/usr/local/ servers, nearline storage, etc. All you really need is a network boot OS and nfs storage, but it's hard to replace local disk swap with network disk.
An interesting twist on this is to use the overlay filesystem on top of a network boot image, so that users can actually modify files in an overlay layer and save those layers of changes
Debian installs are great for the uber-guru sysadmin, but for joe user, they're like medieval torture.
I have nothing against debian, though. I've used it, and apt-get really has been the standard that all other patch mechanisms have been judged against.
I think that a knoppix-based bootstrap install of Debian kicks serious butt!
But, there's something about debian... it's far more open, but far less likely to adopt or drive any radical changes to the way linux/unix works that could make linux better/easier for new users.
Redhat/fedora at least for better or worse, have made some daring (and often unpopular) moves that have ended up moving linux forward by big steps instead of little steps.
Perhaps I'm underinformed, but I see Debian as a stable 'don't rock the free software boat' distribution, and that's good for many reasons.
But, it could be the same underlying ideology of Debian that has slowed it's uptake by the enterprises where their goal is to make money.
It's a double-edged sword. We want linux companies to give everything away for free, yet they need some revenue model to pay their developers -- as does every software company that sells software for Linux.
Perhaps someday there will be a 200 million hobbyist programmers who choose free software hacking as their philanthropy and every possible software need will be provided for with free software. Then, I'd be out of a job, but I would probably be a devout supporter of Debian.
I like many people here, felt that Redhat made a giant PR mistake (for the opensource commmunity which got Redhat where they are today) when it turned redhat into fedora. The perception was, "Redhat needs to make money, so we're only supporting the enterprise versions. You'll need to pay for our software. You'll need to pay for binary patches, and you'll need to pay for support. No more free lunch. See ya' later."
Okay, so... I got over that (sort of...) and tried a whole bunch of different distributions, including Fedora core 1.
What I found was that I really like the fedora model, and can see that with just a little more momentum, it could become something far better that the original free redhat releases ever were.
If you are like I was, and have sworn off redhat for hacking/non-work purposes for whatever ideological reasons, I urge you to read the unofficial Fedora FAQ and actually give it a try.
I have been quite impressed with Fedora and with yum for updates. Make sure to get a new yum.conf file from the unofficial faq site before you try to update your system -- redhat's patch sites are almost always flooded. Then try adding in some of the development channels and do "yum install $package1 $package2 $package3".Add yum to run from cron/as a daemon to update your system.
I just wish now that *someone* would release a version of fedora core that includes support for mp3 and various popular video formats so that it would make a usable desktop for most people out of the box. What's to stop someone from releasing ISOs of feature-overloaded-fedora that would include most of the stuff that the repositories are currently building to "fix" fedora?
But back on the topic -- Before you swear off Fedora, give it a try with an open mind.
So, every company in the US is scrambling to appease their stockholders by changing their cost structures by outsourcing to India.
Problem is, that India is not a endless supply of skilled programmers or workers, and the choice facilities with 1st world infrastructure are very limited.
Land and people are getting more expensive in India by the day.
At some point in the near future, it will no longer be cost competetive to move jobs to India, and other countries will start eating India's "Outsourcing lunch".
How long until outsourcing to India stops being a cost-saving proposition?? 2 Years? 5 Years? ??
Doesn't the law of entropy dictate that eventually everyone's wage will eventually lower or raise to the same point?
You're all missing the point here - Linux as I see it doesn't have the exact font "Times New Roman" as part of the default install - (at least OpenOffice 1.1 on Fedora Core 1 shows now Times Roman font...)
So, what does this edict from the government mean for Linux desktop adoption in the Government?
Imagine all of the great things we could automate with robots:
GraffitiBot - tags all clean walls with cool phrases like "i Ownz j00", "H4x0R", and "Linux Rules"
ThiefBot - hangs out in front of convenience stores and steals hot dogs and candy bars
CoffeeBot - Orders one regular coffee and sits in small groups at Starbucks all day long holding a section of newspaper
BeggarBot - Identifies high traffic sidewalk areas, holds out sign, and pokes at passers by asking for handouts
RecyclerBot - collects recyclables and fends off attacks from humans attempting to steal valuable cardboard, aluminum, and glass (hey, that's actually a good idea! (c) 2004 me)
I wholeheartedly agree. Proxomitron, when properly configured and tweaked, is a most powerful application.
I have had "click to load flash" for a year already at least
Every now and then, I see some ad pop through, and I derive great pleasure from blocking it or better yet, deconstructing the *source* of it's evil and blocking all such future ads at their source.
I saw floating pop ups once, then I blocked them
I saw free-form pop-ups once, then I blocked them
Proxomitron can even re-write html to surgically excise bits of undesirable html.
Sorry web authors and website runners, I'm not going to look at your ads.
And another thing...
I browse all my favorite news channels using RSS - text summary and no ads. Ha!
then, you'd just have people killing rabbits for food, and trading up to get items to sell on ebay, or you'd have people hiding behind every possible object waiting to shoot someone who walks by.
Oh, and there would be lots of people just running around and jumping and shooting everything that moves.
So, if Wall Street people read that, they might decide that their SCOX holdings that have lost 10% over the last 5 days no longer look so good, and start dumping.
Perhaps _now_ would be a good time to take stock advice from Slashdot??
The shareholders don't want them taking risks with their money. [...] The want safe, easy, money. [...] The people who own the company have no interest in it other than as a cash cow. You can't be dangerous and edgy as a public company
Name the companies that the above statements do not hold true for.
It's just like the long-term strategy vs. good quarterly report issue. Every company wants to show shareholders an ever-increasing return, and "meeting numbers" or "quarterly expectations" directly determines stock price. We'll deal with next quarter later.
Star Wars Episode 7: Revenge of the Mutant Ewoks Star Wars Episode 8: The 20-Foot Tall Love Slave from Venus Star Wars Episode 9: Jar Jar Binks vs. The Lost Dragon Vampire Ninjas
The issues that this article brings up are similar regardless of whether commercial software or opensource software is used.
This article is really talking about standardization and consistency across government organizations -- a huge job.
Imaging thousands of individual offices who have operated in a certain way for a hundred years. Imagine all of the paperwork, homemade spreadsheets, interoffice memos that spawn secondary spreadsheets, etc. This unfortunately is how the US government works.
Now imagine someone coming in and promoting replacing whatever random assortment of tools is in use with opensource tools. This means retraining. This means new hardware. This means *A CHANGE*. Uh oh.
Is this the right long-term thing to do? Yes!!
Is this going to be easy? NO!
In order for this to be successful, it will have to have very important people behind it pushing it from the top down and funding the proper resources (hardware and people) where necessary to bring the government into the 21st century.
I for one, certainly hope it can be done, and it would be great for the US and the rest of the world (except Microsoft) if it can be done with opensource software.
.... but will they be able to bring it back to earth? I know that the mars missions have not been allowed to bring back any samples for fear of contaminating the earth with foreign "stuff"
To heck with the thought that our spaceships and satellites might be contaminating other planets, I suppose
I remember hearing mom and dad pick up the phone while I was online and hearing "Hullo??" come out of my modem speaker as I got disconnected! Damn!
I remember borrowing some random terminal from my dad and running about 100 feet of phone line outside of the house so that I could connect an old-skool phone to my 300 baud acoustic coupler in my room when I was home sick.
I remember telemate, and redialing bbs'es that had only *ONE* line.
I remember paying money to be part of S.P.A.C.E bbs and downloading files from work to do tech support.
I remember my buddy's dad paying $16/hour for Compuserve access just so that we could play an online text adventure at 1200 baud.
I remember trying to convince my dad that he should by me a 2400 baud modem for $1500
I remember that I could read *much* faster than 1200 baud
the only reason that Windows Media Player supports mp3 and that all of the "portable MP3 players" support mp3 is becuase it's already all over the place. *NOBODY* could sell an MP3 player that doesn't support mp3s.
It's already out there and too prevalent.
But... the businesses have no interest in distributing mp3s, they want proprietarty, drm-laden formats that guarantee profit.
So, for most sheep-like consumers, ogg has no importance.
Slashdot Mirror
As much as you can say about X working across the WAN and performance issues or suckage,
A very large amount of real user experience of using remote x comes down to WHAT APPLICATIONS ARE BEING RUN.
I can run vi in an xterm from halfway around the world decently, but try running a GNOME or KDE desktop environment from 30 milliseconds away with ample bandwidth and almost everyone will say, "it sucks"
When using x across the WAN, GNOME and KDE desktops suck!
Try using something like twm with a plain xterm or fvwm and a plain xterm and compare that to a GNOME or KDE desktop with gnome-terminal. You'll be surprised how much better the remote experience is when you use a simple windowmanager.
Have you even seen the damage done by a cruise ship dragging anchor across the ocean floor?
Have you even seen a 3000+ year old reef destroyed by some offcourse barge?
Do you know that most of the reefs at popular dive destinations are DYING?
The last thing we need are a bunch of inexperienced divers crashing these underwater vehicles into table corals, soft corals, and otherwise speeding up the demise of our fragile coral reefs.
Think I'm exaggeratting?
Freighter damager 1200ftX200ft swath of Florida reef
60% of great barrier reef hit by bleaching
Great barrier reef 50 years from death
Sewage killing Tobaggo's reef
Bottom trawling fishing destroys large portions of deep water coral reefs never explored
Sorry dude, but as a Computer and auto gearhead, I've got to weigh in on this...
... perhaps if your hotrod had a really tricked out computer in it, you'd have the best of both worlds :)
Building a PC and maintaining the OS is infinitely more *USER_SPACE* activity compared to rebuilding an engine in an old car.
I see a similarity, but for most people today, building a PC means getting a mini-atx case, selecting a processor, buying ram, buying a graphics card, buying a hard drive, buying a dvd-rom drive, buying some speakers, and then installing an OS.
Once the OS is installed, you patch, check for updates, patch, tweak, delete cruft, repeat ad nauseum, until your computer is so full of cruft that you need to start all over again.
With a car, there's so many more things to check, repair, clean, polish, restore, upgrade... and it takes skill, tools, and money... most of all SKILL and PRACTICE. Anyone can build a "mame" binary or a new linux kernel by following directions... but give a 'newbie' a dented door, bondo, and sandpaper and just watch the hilarity ensue.
There's no 'warez' scene that lets 16 year olds download superchargers, nitrous kits, racing slicks, sway bars, 10" disc brakes, complete interior upgrades, and new paintjobs.
You can't just uninstall and reinstall a dented quarter panel.
Binaries don't degrade after 100,000 miles.
For *most* people's involvement with computers, it's limited to a select few components and choices -- more akin to people who 'hot rod' their cell phones with flashing lights and new plastic covers, or people who think that a giant "r-type" sticker on their car makes it a hotrod.
I mean... how many hackers ever take a soldering iron to their motherboard today?
Component-wise, building and tweaking a computer is more like taking a touring bike apart, painting the frame, upgrading components, getting new tires, truing the rims, polishing the aluminum and putting everything all back together -- time consuming and technical, but a finite number of components.
In as much as the comparison between hotrodding computers and cars does hold true, the really interesting thing is that the cost of entry is much lower for computers, and in the linux world, the new goodies (software) are all freely available (= cheap hobby compared to cars)
Alas, it's much harder to get a group to admire your cool computer than it is to get a group to admire your cherry 60's American muscle car.
That is truly funny. I imagines a bunch of people working at large paper mega-corporations designing the floral prints and quilted stitching patterns using photoshop with CYMK color separations ... and then I imagined some small linux-based toilet-paper company crowing about the virtues about being able to replace photoshop with GIMP for toiletpaper design. ... or imagine feeding a roll of TP into your printer and printing custom designs ???
then how come there are production versions of Windows xp-64 itanic and win 2003-64 itanic, when there is still only a developer release of Win 2003 amd64?
Wintel, anyone?
So.. the solution to the no feedback keyboard issue is to have the keyboard projector project down onto a rubberized keyboard map that rolls up. This way, you've got your feedback problem solved, and everyone will be happy using it.
The only real function of Live CDs in the enterprise is provide exposure to Linux to people with no risk.
/usr/local/ servers, nearline storage, etc. All you really need is a network boot OS and nfs storage, but it's hard to replace local disk swap with network disk.
The enterprise version of "live CD" is called PXE boot of a network OS install.
Change a bios setting and your computer boots off of the network.
Also, in the enterprise, where you have homedirectory servers, shared application servers,
An interesting twist on this is to use the overlay filesystem on top of a network boot image, so that users can actually modify files in an overlay layer and save those layers of changes
Debian installs are great for the uber-guru sysadmin, but for joe user, they're like medieval torture.
I have nothing against debian, though. I've used it, and apt-get really has been the standard that all other patch mechanisms have been judged against.
I think that a knoppix-based bootstrap install of Debian kicks serious butt!
But, there's something about debian... it's far more open, but far less likely to adopt or drive any radical changes to the way linux/unix works that could make linux better/easier for new users.
Redhat/fedora at least for better or worse, have made some daring (and often unpopular) moves that have ended up moving linux forward by big steps instead of little steps.
Perhaps I'm underinformed, but I see Debian as a stable 'don't rock the free software boat' distribution, and that's good for many reasons.
But, it could be the same underlying ideology of Debian that has slowed it's uptake by the enterprises where their goal is to make money.
It's a double-edged sword. We want linux companies to give everything away for free, yet they need some revenue model to pay their developers -- as does every software company that sells software for Linux.
Perhaps someday there will be a 200 million hobbyist programmers who choose free software hacking as their philanthropy and every possible software need will be provided for with free software. Then, I'd be out of a job, but I would probably be a devout supporter of Debian.
I like many people here, felt that Redhat made a giant PR mistake (for the opensource commmunity which got Redhat where they are today) when it turned redhat into fedora. The perception was, "Redhat needs to make money, so we're only supporting the enterprise versions. You'll need to pay for our software. You'll need to pay for binary patches, and you'll need to pay for support. No more free lunch. See ya' later."
Okay, so... I got over that (sort of...) and tried a whole bunch of different distributions, including Fedora core 1.
What I found was that I really like the fedora model, and can see that with just a little more momentum, it could become something far better that the original free redhat releases ever were.
If you are like I was, and have sworn off redhat for hacking/non-work purposes for whatever ideological reasons, I urge you to read the unofficial Fedora FAQ and actually give it a try.
I have been quite impressed with Fedora and with yum for updates. Make sure to get a new yum.conf file from the unofficial faq site before you try to update your system -- redhat's patch sites are almost always flooded. Then try adding in some of the development channels and do "yum install $package1 $package2 $package3".Add yum to run from cron/as a daemon to update your system.
I just wish now that *someone* would release a version of fedora core that includes support for mp3 and various popular video formats so that it would make a usable desktop for most people out of the box. What's to stop someone from releasing ISOs of feature-overloaded-fedora that would include most of the stuff that the repositories are currently building to "fix" fedora?
But back on the topic -- Before you swear off Fedora, give it a try with an open mind.
So, every company in the US is scrambling to appease their stockholders by changing their cost structures by outsourcing to India.
Problem is, that India is not a endless supply of skilled programmers or workers, and the choice facilities with 1st world infrastructure are very limited.
Land and people are getting more expensive in India by the day.
At some point in the near future, it will no longer be cost competetive to move jobs to India, and other countries will start eating India's "Outsourcing lunch".
How long until outsourcing to India stops being a cost-saving proposition?? 2 Years? 5 Years? ??
Doesn't the law of entropy dictate that eventually everyone's wage will eventually lower or raise to the same point?
Redistribution of Microsoft's Core fonts for use on Linux where the end user doesn't have a windows license is a gray area at best.
Why don't the major distros include Microsoft Core fonts. Why did redhat need to go to monotype and have them design default fonts?
You're all missing the point here - Linux as I see it doesn't have the exact font "Times New Roman" as part of the default install - (at least OpenOffice 1.1 on Fedora Core 1 shows now Times Roman font...)
So, what does this edict from the government mean for Linux desktop adoption in the Government?
Like we need more graffiti.
Imagine all of the great things we could automate with robots:
GraffitiBot - tags all clean walls with cool phrases like "i Ownz j00", "H4x0R", and "Linux Rules"
ThiefBot - hangs out in front of convenience stores and steals hot dogs and candy bars
CoffeeBot - Orders one regular coffee and sits in small groups at Starbucks all day long holding a section of newspaper
BeggarBot - Identifies high traffic sidewalk areas, holds out sign, and pokes at passers by asking for handouts
RecyclerBot - collects recyclables and fends off attacks from humans attempting to steal valuable cardboard, aluminum, and glass (hey, that's actually a good idea! (c) 2004 me)
If companies want to ship a computer with a free OS, I believe tossing a knoppix cd in the box would be a good move...
I wholeheartedly agree. Proxomitron, when properly configured and tweaked, is a most powerful application.
I have had "click to load flash" for a year already at least
Every now and then, I see some ad pop through, and I derive great pleasure from blocking it or better yet, deconstructing the *source* of it's evil and blocking all such future ads at their source.
I saw floating pop ups once, then I blocked them
I saw free-form pop-ups once, then I blocked them
Proxomitron can even re-write html to surgically excise bits of undesirable html.
Sorry web authors and website runners, I'm not going to look at your ads.
And another thing...
I browse all my favorite news channels using RSS - text summary and no ads. Ha!
then, you'd just have people killing rabbits for food, and trading up to get items to sell on ebay, or you'd have people hiding behind every possible object waiting to shoot someone who walks by.
Oh, and there would be lots of people just running around and jumping and shooting everything that moves.
Fun!
You're right.
So, if Wall Street people read that, they might decide that their SCOX holdings that have lost 10% over the last 5 days no longer look so good, and start dumping.
Perhaps _now_ would be a good time to take stock advice from Slashdot??
why does RedHat have to be all corporate and crap now?
... how ironic!
Because they're a corporation, stupid! They are in business to make money, not to please the opensource community.
Oh, wait... the only reason they're where they are is because of the opensource community, right?
Bah - who needs' em?
Hope that Progeny offers their patching service and support for Enterprise Linux as well as RH 7 and 8.
The shareholders don't want them taking risks with their money. [...] The want safe, easy, money. [...] The people who own the company have no interest in it other than as a cash cow. You can't be dangerous and edgy as a public company
Name the companies that the above statements do not hold true for.
It's just like the long-term strategy vs. good quarterly report issue. Every company wants to show shareholders an ever-increasing return, and "meeting numbers" or "quarterly expectations" directly determines stock price. We'll deal with next quarter later.
If Episode 2 naming is any judge:
Star Wars Episode 7: Revenge of the Mutant Ewoks
Star Wars Episode 8: The 20-Foot Tall Love Slave from Venus
Star Wars Episode 9: Jar Jar Binks vs. The Lost Dragon Vampire Ninjas
Jedi Binks?
The issues that this article brings up are similar regardless of whether commercial software or opensource software is used.
This article is really talking about standardization and consistency across government organizations -- a huge job.
Imaging thousands of individual offices who have operated in a certain way for a hundred years. Imagine all of the paperwork, homemade spreadsheets, interoffice memos that spawn secondary spreadsheets, etc. This unfortunately is how the US government works.
Now imagine someone coming in and promoting replacing whatever random assortment of tools is in use with opensource tools. This means retraining. This means new hardware. This means *A CHANGE*. Uh oh.
Is this the right long-term thing to do? Yes!!
Is this going to be easy? NO!
In order for this to be successful, it will have to have very important people behind it pushing it from the top down and funding the proper resources (hardware and people) where necessary to bring the government into the 21st century.
I for one, certainly hope it can be done, and it would be great for the US and the rest of the world (except Microsoft) if it can be done with opensource software.
.... but will they be able to bring it back to earth? I know that the mars missions have not been allowed to bring back any samples for fear of contaminating the earth with foreign "stuff"
To heck with the thought that our spaceships and satellites might be contaminating other planets, I suppose
I remember hearing mom and dad pick up the phone while I was online and hearing "Hullo??" come out of my modem speaker as I got disconnected! Damn!
I remember borrowing some random terminal from my dad and running about 100 feet of phone line outside of the house so that I could connect an old-skool phone to my 300 baud acoustic coupler in my room when I was home sick.
I remember telemate, and redialing bbs'es that had only *ONE* line.
I remember paying money to be part of S.P.A.C.E bbs and downloading files from work to do tech support.
I remember my buddy's dad paying $16/hour for Compuserve access just so that we could play an online text adventure at 1200 baud.
I remember trying to convince my dad that he should by me a 2400 baud modem for $1500
I remember that I could read *much* faster than 1200 baud
I used to dial in to that BBS, too. Wasn't that located in Davis, CA?
Good times.
the only reason that Windows Media Player supports mp3 and that all of the "portable MP3 players" support mp3 is becuase it's already all over the place. *NOBODY* could sell an MP3 player that doesn't support mp3s.
It's already out there and too prevalent.
But... the businesses have no interest in distributing mp3s, they want proprietarty, drm-laden formats that guarantee profit.
So, for most sheep-like consumers, ogg has no importance.
For opensource and free software, OGG is golden.