Dell Offers FreeDOS With New PCs

Is this new? by bsharitt · 2004-01-26 13:39 · Score: 4, Insightful

I may be wrong, but didn't they start this a long time ago?

Re:Is this new? by SubTexel · 2004-01-26 13:40 · Score: 5, Informative

Nope, you are right. They have been doing this for quite some time, they also offer Linux as an alternative as well.
Re:Is this new? by frdmfghtr · 2004-01-26 13:41 · Score: 5, Informative

Yep, back in 2002...

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1534

--
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
Re:Is this new? by jlevitsk · 2004-01-26 13:41 · Score: 5, Interesting

I thought so too. I just bought one of these. Came in 5 days from when I ordered it too. Very spiffy and then I threw Debian on it.
Re:Is this new? by Chuck+Bucket · 2004-01-26 13:56 · Score: 5, Interesting

I just found out about this a few weeks ago, it changed my plans of rebuilding my current box; for 319$ (or a little more) I can have a ~2.6Gig box with those nice/quiet Dell cases. The fact that I don't have to buy MS on it turned me around, it'll be our new main workstation running Gentoo Linux.

Next I'll think about replacing my server! At ~300$ I can't afford not to upgrade!

CB

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Re:Is this new? by firstadopter.com · 2004-01-26 14:05 · Score: 1

If true, this is pretty old news, but kudos to Dell anyway.

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Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:07 · Score: 0

Wow this is an obvious troll
Re:Is this new? by blixel · 2004-01-26 14:27 · Score: 1

What brand of motherboard do they put in these things?

What's the wattage of the Power Supply?

What kind of RAM is used? DDR Dual Channel? What brand is the RAM?

What brand is the hard-drive? What is the rotational speed of the hdd? How much cache does the hdd have?

Sounds like a decent deal as long as they are using decent hardware.
Re:Is this new? by timeOday · 2004-01-26 14:31 · Score: 1

Is it cheaper without Windows?
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:42 · Score: 0

This is a Dell. It will be the absolute worst hardware they can find that would implode on first use. And will be non-standard so you can only get replacements from them (or break out the dremmel).
Re:Is this new? by JPriest · 2004-01-26 14:50 · Score: 5, Insightful

And were are not without /. saying Dell is trying to "distancing of itself from Microsoft". Myabe Dell is only one small step away from throwing down the windows flag and offering only Linux as an option? No, I don't think that is it. I think someone is just spouting off at the mouth. Zealots are blinded by the way they want things to be, not the way things are.

--
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:59 · Score: 0

Dell hardware has been very reliable for me. My old P200 is still chugging along. In fact, my experiences with other vendors and homebuilt computers has been much, much worse than with Dell.
Re:Is this new? by falsified · 2004-01-26 15:00 · Score: 2, Informative

Everyone says that Dell uses shitty hardware, but I haven't noticed this at all. I dropped an old, metal answering machine (as in from the 80s) from about eight feet right on the mousepad and after I ran chkdsk or some similar program, the Inspiron (and hard drive, save a bit of free space) worked just fine, including the mousepad. I run Win2k on this computer, and I've had to restart this thing maybe four times in the past year, mainly due to a problem that the NVidia card has when I try to play some DOS games, which is to be halfway-expected since I'm running a post-DOS version of Windows. (The fact that I have an always-on notebook says something about heat management as well, I suppose; also, I haven't checked for an updated NVidia driver since I bought this computer, so the "shitty hardware" assertion is inaccurate here.) They also have prices on laptops that, last time I checked, aren't matched as far as major brands go. Every week or so, on their online store, they throw in a bunch of freebies and rebates as well.
Maybe I've just gotten lucky, and maybe their desktops aren't as hardy as their laptops.

--
HI, MY NAME IS ISAAC.
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:01 · Score: 0, Informative

Obviously you are trolling. And obviously you are an idiot. But...

I don't know of any computer company that does what you are talking about these days. I do remember 10 years ago Packard Bell (and the like) made proprietary all-in-one sound cards/modems/video cards that plugged into a riser board off the motherboard.

But as far as I know, all of these companies use "standard" motherboards and parts now. Integration is standard. It started with the ATX form factor bringing PS/2 ports, IDE controllers, and Serial Ports onto the motherboard, and continued on with sound cards, video cards, and so on. And no, it's not a "Bad Thing(tm)". It's just like everything else. It has it's place. The difference between the Packard Bells of years past and the integration that you see now is that now you can open up your machine and replace the defective integrated motherboard with any of dozens of different choices. You don't have to call Dell and pay $300 for a proprietary motherboard. And besides, the system comes with a warranty that would replace it for $0 should it break down within the warranty period.
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:04 · Score: 0

You dropped a heavy object onto your rubber mouse pad and your computer kept working? Wow - that's amazing.
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:07 · Score: 0

No, not new, unless they are starting to toss in free holographic propeller beanies with every order...

Actually... free propeller beanies... sign me up for ten please...
Re:Is this new? by flyfishin · 2004-01-26 15:39 · Score: 5, Informative

Not according to the FreeDos site.

"Update: (16 Jan 2004) This may look like a repeat, but it's not. Before, FreeDOS on Dell wasn't available to US customers - it was Canadian customers only."
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 16:02 · Score: 0

I think he meant to say "touchpad".
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 16:04 · Score: 1, Informative

Well, if any body is interested in dell laptops then they should look here:
http://www.angelcomputer.com/

This is dell laptops but without the dell name. U can even save and don't buy windows.

I bought one of these laptops and its vary good, high in performance and inexpensive compared to the "brand named" ones.

I discovered that these are dell clones when I was trouble shooting my mandrake 9.1 -9.2 installations, what confirmed it to me was the shutting down bug in mandrake 9.2. Since then whenever I have any problem I just google for dell inspiration 5xxx series and the problem I have.

Any way, I am not affiliated with this site by any mean or way, its just I thought I'll point out a bout it since people here seems to be kind of interested with this dell deal.

*I am too lazy to create an account.
*w7aggag
Re:Is this new? by nyseal · 2004-01-26 16:06 · Score: 1

5 days? Hmmm...there goes my karma.

--
[SIG] Remember Mattel handheld games?
Re:Is this new? by Popageorgio · 2004-01-26 16:07 · Score: 1

Compaq is the one with shitty hardware. I've taken my Compaq Evo laptop to the shop seven times since I got it in September 2002.
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 16:34 · Score: 0

Maybe I've just gotten lucky, and maybe their desktops aren't as hardy as their laptops.
Nope. I can vouch for the desktops and servers as well. My company has bought probably 500+ desktop systems from Dell in the 4 years that I have been working there and I would say that less than 10 have suffered some kind of component failure. And I can't remember having to call any of the servers in, and a few of them have been there longer than I have.
Re:Is this new? by ScrewMaster · 2004-01-26 16:44 · Score: 2, Interesting

No, I'm afraid that the original poster was the intelligent one. Obviously, "as far as you know" extends only to the limits of your olfactory appendage. My company used to use custom-built rack-mount equipment for the industrial data acquisition systems we develop, but now we've begun buying off-the-shelf HP/Compaqs, Dells, and others. And while the quality is better than the old Packard Bells, they do use thoroughly oddball, non-standard, user-lock-in components. That's the name of the game. Where you're getting these "integration is standard" systems from I don't know, but it sure has hell ain't Dell.

Furthermore, if you're depending upon Dell's warranty to save your ass when your motherboard blows its zap, I feel sorry for you. You're far better off (if you have the technical skill) to buy some high-quality, truly off-the-shelf components and put together a real PC that you can maintain yourself.

--
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Re:Is this new? by AstroDrabb · 2004-01-26 16:45 · Score: 4, Insightful

While I cannot stand MS, I'd have to agree here. Dell is so far up Billy boys butt, it isn't even funny. I think Dell just offers a few poorly packaged PC's without MS software in the same manner that a teen would rebell against his/her parents.
I personally think that only HP, IBM and Sun are any of the big boys PC makers that offer real non-MS products. We just got in some multi-million dollar SANS from HP and they threw in a bunch of dual Xeon 3.2 GHz w/HT, 2GB, 136GB U320 Raid 5 Linux servers. HP has Open Source drivers for the Gig cards and even drivers/software for thier HP Lights Out management app for the Linux servers. With Dell you don't get any of that.

--
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
Re:Is this new? by Xabraxas · 2004-01-26 16:55 · Score: 4, Informative

From the FreeDOS website:
Chuck found that US customers can purchase Dell systems with FreeDOS: Perhaps this is old news but browsing on Dell's Small Business site, I noticed that they are now offering select systems bundled with FreeDOS. From the web site: The n series features select popular models from the DimensionTM , OptiPlexTM and Dell PrecisionTM desktop lines sold without a Microsoft(R) operating system. Offered for IT professionals who want control over operating system development and installation, n series desktops are available with a copy of the FreeDOSTM open-source operating system included in the box, ready to install. Update: (16 Jan 2004) This may look like a repeat, but it's not. Before, FreeDOS on Dell wasn't available to US customers - it was Canadian customers only.

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Time makes more converts than reason
Re:Is this new? by AstroDrabb · 2004-01-26 17:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

I don't know if Dell does it for thier home PC's, howver the do use some non-standard crap on thier workstations. I have 3 Dell Optiplex PC's and 1 Precision in my office. The power supply went on one of the Optiplexes and I wanted to get it back up fast. I ran down to CompUSA to expense a power supply and brought the old one. I could not find any power supply to fit. It had to be ordered from Dell. Also, the Precision I have uses some crappy duagher board which again, prevents me from using most standard cases if I wanted to put it in some other non-Dell box. Don't get me started on the insane price Dell charges for memory.
Where I work we have a corporate support contract on the Dell desktops so we have to go through Dell to get our memory. I wanted to add an extra 512 MB of RDRAM and Dell wanted over $500 for it! You can get it on the net for half that price. The same thing for DDR. Go to Dell's site and customize a PC and add about 256MB of memory to one. They will charge you over $100 when you can get in on the net for $40 or so.
Also, pray that as a home user you never need to call Dell's tech support. Your getting routed over to India and if you don't speak Hindi, your in for a rough time.

--
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
Re:Is this new? by unitron · 2004-01-26 17:14 · Score: 2, Informative

Perhaps if you (and whoever gave you that "informative" mod point) would google for "dell non-standard atx" you'd realise that the proprietary problem is far from gone.

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Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 18:16 · Score: 0

Dell low profile desktop Optiplex GX, medium to high priced range. About 50 of then. All used the 810e chipset for integrated video, sound varied from integrated to a AudioPCI. Different CPUs. Every single one has buggy video to the point that scrolling web pages, documents, etc would screw up the video with the letters overlapping each other. I tried upgrading the video drivers and the BIOS many times. The problem never goes away. Seen on WinNT, Win2K, WinXP.
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 18:26 · Score: 0

Unlike much of the rest of the system the memory and CPU is still standard. Buy it off the net and get those nice savings. By the way, when I was looking for cheapest price for memory for my non-Dell notebook my pricewatch (or something else) pointed me to Dell. They sold and probably still sell Kingston ValueRAM significantly cheaper than you can get noname branded memory elsewhere.
Re:Is this new? by thre5her · 2004-01-26 18:27 · Score: 1

I think Dell is just capitalizing on the small geek market; after all, it probably SAVES money to NOT put Windows on a box. FreeDOS, though? Better to keep up various distro CDs.
Re:Is this new? by Saba · 2004-01-26 18:55 · Score: 1

What brand of motherboard do they put in these things?
What's the wattage of the Power Supply?
What kind of RAM is used? DDR Dual Channel? What brand is the RAM?
What brand is the hard-drive? What is the rotational speed of the hdd? How much cache does the hdd have?
Sounds like a decent deal as long as they are using decent hardware.

If this sort of stuff matters to you, why are you buying a Dell?
Re:Is this new? by Sivar · 2004-01-26 19:08 · Score: 3, Informative

"Dell clones" do not exist because Dell does not make their own laptops. All PC vendors except IBM resell laptops made by Clevo, Arima, or some other Taiwanese ODM.

That said, it is entirely possible that the company you pointed to uses the same ODM as Dell, in which case it may indeed be easy to get more or less the same laptop for a lower price.

Interested parties may also look at www.powernotebooks.com and www.pctorque.com. These guys sell Eurocom and Sager (=Clevo) laptops at lower prices than many. It is a good way to get the same laptop, POSSIBLY MINUS SUPPORT, for a lower price.

--
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
Re:Is this new? by Sivar · 2004-01-26 19:14 · Score: 3, Informative

What brand of motherboard do they put in these things?
Usually Intel (modified to use the proprietary Dell power supply)

What's the wattage of the Power Supply?
The wattage of the Dell power supplies is generally sufficient to run the Dell just fine plus a few hard drives and other upgrades. The problem is that they use proprietary power supplies. There is NO TECHNICAL REASON to do this other than to lock customers in. If you charge enough for a replacement unit, customers will probably just buy a new PC instead.
The power supplies are like ATX, and at least a few years ago used an ATX-look alike connector. They may have changed this, because plugging a standard ATX PS into Dell motherboards would let the smoke out of the PS, possibly the Dell itself.
Fun.

What kind of RAM is used? DDR Dual Channel? What brand is the RAM?
Dell usually uses major brand RAM--whatever they can get cheapest in bulk. Not an issue. The RAM generally uses conservative timings, but then, timings really don't matter for most applications beyond 1-5% performance.

What brand is the hard-drive? What is the rotational speed of the hdd? How much cache does the hdd have?
Dell often uses Seagate or, IIRC, Maxtor. Not an issue, really.

Sounds like a decent deal as long as they are using decent hardware.
Decent Dells (i.e. not the super cheap systems with integrated video, etc.) use pretty good hardware. The problem is that the pretty good hardware is also pretty proprietary. Some parts are interchangeable, particularly with their overpriced gaming systems, but you buy Dell for the support (on paper at least) and because they are cheap. If you are a business, you buy them because they are a major OEM and give great support if you are a big buyer. And because they are cheap.

Dells are not meant for geeks that can build their own system from parts. They are meant for the other 95% of people that want a little black box that just works, and if it doesn't, has a toll-free number to call for help.

--
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
Re:Is this new? by eleknader · 2004-01-26 20:37 · Score: 1

A Dell rep. told me last october, that
you can get a Dell machine with freedos.

Eleknader
Re:Is this new? by Schmucky+The+Cat · 2004-01-26 20:51 · Score: 4, Funny

Where I work we have a corporate support contract on the Dell desktops so we have to go through Dell to get our memory. I wanted to add an extra 512 MB of RDRAM and Dell wanted over $500 for it!

If you can't use the old RAM simultaneously then just stick it in a drawer or velcro it to the interior of the case. When the machine needs servicing, put the old RAM in.
Compaq pulls that same deal. We put 1GB chips in a bunch of servers that were ordered with 128MB. Compaq didn't want to service the machines but the old RAM was in a desk drawer. Put it back and let the whiny Compaq guy work on dog slow 128MB machines.
Re:Is this new? by scott_davey · 2004-01-26 22:09 · Score: 5, Informative

We just got in some multi-million dollar SANS from HP and they threw in a bunch of dual Xeon 3.2 GHz w/HT, 2GB, 136GB U320 Raid 5 Linux servers. HP has Open Source drivers for the Gig cards and even drivers/software for thier HP Lights Out management app for the Linux servers. With Dell you don't get any of that.
Actually, last year we bought a bunch of Dell PowerEdge 2650s with RedHat 9 (and then had to purchase RHEL only six months later because of that end of life bullshit...but that's another story).
Anyway, Dell has a really good installer that asks a couple of questions, then installs RedHat with all the right options for the hardware, including Dell's drivers for their gigabit ethernet card and RAID 5 config. It even included a custom hardware PNP lookup file with identifiers for all the components in the server that aren't in the standard distro.
Dell also have their management interface for linux, which does everything the windows version does.
I was quite impressed with Dell (Not so much with RedHat over that end of life thing)
Re:Is this new? by gilesjuk · 2004-01-27 00:27 · Score: 2, Insightful

But I bet Dell still pays Microsoft a fee when they sell a FreeDOS PC.
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 01:34 · Score: 0

It looks like you can buy the same machine with 17" monitor + xp for an additional $80. Since they want $100 dollars to get 17" monitor with the freedos system, it may mean you are paying the ms tax anyways without even receiving xp.
Re:Is this new? by rhadamanthus · 2004-01-27 01:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

"I personally think that only HP, IBM and Sun are any of the big boys PC makers that offer real non-MS products."
Out of curiosity, when you purchased these servers, was a windows CD included? Numerous times I have bought a "linux" server from HP or Dell, only to find out I payed for a Windows OS anyway, it just was not installed...
YMMV, of course
--rhad

--
Slashdot needs to interview Natalie Portman.
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 01:39 · Score: 0

"Sounds like a decent deal as long as they are using decent hardware.
Decent Dells (i.e. not the super cheap systems with integrated video, etc.) use pretty good hardware. The problem is that the pretty good hardware is also pretty proprietary. Some parts are interchangeable, particularly with their overpriced gaming systems, but you buy Dell for the support (on paper at least) and because they are cheap. If you are a business, you buy them because they are a major OEM and give great support if you are a big buyer. And because they are cheap."

If you know anything about computers, all Dell will do is piss you off because they hide behind their return policies and the statement that they have "award winning support". I recently bought a laptop from them, my reasoning being that it's a laptop and no matter where I go it will be proprietary parts so I might as well go where I know service is best. The only problem is the model is of low quality, overheating horribly, which burned out all kinds of other components. In the first 6 months it has never been reliable and constantly having parts replaced, then I spent another month arguing with support (tech and customer) that this is not what I paid for and that despite what they believe they can hide behind, a replacement is more than warranted by my consumer rights. They eventually caved, but it's ridiculous that I had to spend so much time when everyone I talked to admitted I had a problem system and could see it from my records. Now I'm stuck with a new system that could have cost me $400 less if I bought it now, or spent the same money now and gotten a better system. You better believe that despite them sending a replacement system, I'm still lodging complaints with several consumer agencies.

If you go to the Dell community message boards as well, you will see they are riddled with the same complaints about support not being helpful. And I would believe that it's a few people complaining they got a bum deal on a phone call one night to Dell, if only it weren't for the fact that I've spoken to well over a dozen people on tech and customer support and not once did I talk to anyone 'helpful'.
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 01:43 · Score: 0

The dell rebates do not amount to anything. If you tally them up over the course of a month, you do not see much if any savings between weeks when they change offers. The best thing to do is find the offer that matches what you want best.

If they don't offer a free upgrade, they offer an "online discount". Or maybe one week a free upgrade to DVD-Burner on laptops, the next it will free battery and so on.
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 01:55 · Score: 0

If this sort of stuff matters to you, why are you buying a Dell?

Do the math.
Re:Is this new? by sosegumu · 2004-01-27 02:20 · Score: 1

I think Dell just offers a few poorly packaged PC's without MS software in the same manner that a teen would rebell against his/her parents.

I absolutely love that simile; do you mind if I use it?

--
It's easier to wear the spandex than to do the crunches. --David Lee Roth
Re:Is this new? by udippel · 2004-01-27 03:18 · Score: 0

So-and-so. It might depend on the region of the world you're in ? [Here: South-East Asia]

I'm using a cheapie Optiplex-240 at work, always on, of course, which has a non-standard motherboard and a very non-standard IDE-Cable-Select setup, which I never managed to get to work even after changing everything to Primary/Secondary and jumpering the harddrives. Both work well, individually, but as CS only.
So lala. For the rest: reliable.

My second bugger is an Inspiron 8100 notebook, pretty good value (then !!), and what made me buy it: Three years of warranty for about US$100. Don't do without ! They had the honour during the last 2.5 years to replace:
keyboard
floppy-drive
harddrive
CDRW
Would have costed me a fortune on my own !
If they 'do it again' with this warranty, I'll buy a DELL notebook again. Otherwise: never. Too expensive to maintain !

Closing note: Here DELL doesn't offer *any* PC without RedMond-Tax. Nor does anyone else. AFAIK.
Re:Is this new? by hackstraw · 2004-01-27 03:33 · Score: 1

Maybe this is for Microsoft products.

Many companies have licences/standard windows releases/ etc that they maintain and want to just drop their OS image onto new machines and avoid the 2x Windows tax.
Re:Is this new? by mj2k · 2004-01-27 03:41 · Score: 1

I actually ordered one of the dimension 2400n's this weekend to replace my aging server at home - for $498 you get a 2.4 ghz P4 (not celeron) with dvd/cdrw, 10/100/1000, 512mb, and a 40 gig drive - I used to build my own stuff but dell's selling things cheaper than you can build them for these days.
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 05:10 · Score: 0

Dell is up Billy boy's butt for the sheer pleasure of the smell. Not because the vast majority of Dell customers want Windows on their PC's and Microsoft can help buy giving them deep discounts which helps them undercut their competition (who are also selling boxes with Windows because that's what the vast majority of their customers want) and thus reap larger profits for themselves. You Linux zealots crack me up. If tomorrow the vast majority of Dell's customers wanted Linux, Dell would remove said head from Billy boys ass. It's a business, and when your in the type of business that Dell is in, where the vast majority of your customers want a low price and Windows pre-installed then it makes sense to align yourself with Microsoft.
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 06:02 · Score: 0

Actually, last year we bought a bunch of Dell PowerEdge 2650s with RedHat 9 (and then had to purchase RHEL only six months later because of that end of life bullshit...but that's another story).

Redhat 9 does not EOL for another 3-4 months. This EOL date was announced _before_ RH9 was released so this should not have been a surprise for anyone who has been paying attention.
Re:Is this new? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 07:39 · Score: 0

Except for Sony and Toshiba, who design their own laptops.
Re:Is this new? by Conaz · 2004-01-27 08:08 · Score: 1

That is Sir Billy Boy to you!
Re:Is this new? by Tim+C · 2004-01-27 08:18 · Score: 1

I doubt that it's very much cheaper at all. Last year, I bought an OEM copy of Windows XP Pro. It cost me about 110. A month or so earlier, I'd bought my gf a PC (2.6GHz P4, 512MB of RAM, CD burner, etc), which cost 1000GBP (850GBP because of a special offer, but retail was 1000).

That means that XP cost me about 11% of the price of a whole new system. *However*, I'm not buying XP in anything like the sort of numbers that Dell would be buying it in. I very much doubt that they pay a fraction of that per licence. Add to that the fact that they probably don't take the whole cost of the licence off the price, and you're probably not looking at a particularly large saving. Of course, if you were just going to wipe the drive and install something else, then even if it's only a couple of percent, it's better to not have to pay it at all.

--
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Re:Is this new? by ScrewMaster · 2004-01-27 12:20 · Score: 1

I couldn't agree more. Allegedly (and I say, allegedly) Dell is going to return some of the technical support operation to the United States, because of a "substantial" number of customer complaints. My feeling is the problem was far, far worse than they are admitting. I mean, even if one is on the phone with a competent, English-speaking technical support person, the truth is that phone support is very difficult under the best of circumstances. Add to the mix a language barrier, rude and/or marginally competent personnel and you have a recipe for a customer-support debacle of Biblical proportions. But I'm sure Dell saved a lot of money.

--
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Re:Is this new? by muckdog · 2004-01-27 15:48 · Score: 1

I agree, Its more likely that this is a strategy to compete with whitebox computer manufacturers. The Microsoft Anti-trust agreement while not perfect at least make this possible.
Re:Is this new? by AstroDrabb · 2004-01-27 16:54 · Score: 1

It is all yours : )

--
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
Re:Is this new? by AstroDrabb · 2004-01-27 16:57 · Score: 1

The HP servers came with bare drives and a boxed Red Hat AS 2.1. There was no MS Windows CD. Though as I said, these servers were given to us as a thanks for the very expensive SANs. I would assume they came the same way as if we would have purchased them for Linux servers.

--
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
Re:Is this new? by rekkanoryo · 2004-01-28 10:10 · Score: 1

Actually, no. M$ only sees money for PCs that have M$ OSes on them. However, under the OEM-M$ agreements, OEMs can't sell PCs without an OS. The agreement doesn't limit the OEMs to M$ OSes; it just limits them in that all PCs shipping from OEMs having agreements with Microsoft must have any OS on/with them. Shipping a PC without an OS in the box would be breaking the contract and then open Dell and the other OEMs up to costly breach of contract suits.

Hmm by pyite · 2004-01-26 13:39 · Score: 5, Funny

Because 8 bits are better than none?

--

"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman

Re:Hmm by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 13:52 · Score: 0

If Dell is offering them, why is there no navigation available on the Dell.com site?

Dell doesnt want people to know about it?
Re:Hmm by runderwo · 2004-01-26 15:43 · Score: 2, Informative

DOS, and the 8086, are fully 16-bit in design and operation. The only thing 8-bit about them is the 8088's peripheral bus. The decision to use the 8088 rather than the 8086 in the IBM PC was made in order to cut costs for peripheral manufacturers.

--
LRC, the best-read libertarian site on the web
Re:Hmm by Detritus · 2004-01-26 20:11 · Score: 1

Much of the design of DOS was a direct ripoff of CP/M-80, an operating system for the 8-bit Intel 8080A.

--
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Re:Hmm by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 21:12 · Score: 0

The design of Unix was for a PDP-7 an 18-bit machine. You don't hear anyone complaining about Linux being a direct ripoff of an OS for a 18-bit machine, do you? The descendent is not the same as the ancestor.
Re:Hmm by Pogue+Mahone · 2004-01-26 22:51 · Score: 1

The only thing 8-bit about them is the 8088's peripheral bus.
The memory bus of the 8088 was also 8-bit. But internally it was the same as the 8086.

--
Every bloody emperor has his hand up history's skirt [Peter Hammill/VdGG]

I for one by iswm · 2004-01-26 13:40 · Score: 2, Interesting

Am glad someone made the move.

--
Buckethead

FreeDOS by vwjeff · 2004-01-26 13:40 · Score: 2, Interesting

OK, what can I do with it??

Re:FreeDOS by NanoGator · 2004-01-26 13:47 · Score: 4, Funny

"OK, what can I do with it??"

You can operate your disc system. Duh.

--
"Derp de derp."
Re:FreeDOS by fred911 · 2004-01-26 13:52 · Score: 1

How about putting the OS you purchased a license to use on your old boxen, that's not currently being used?

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09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Re:FreeDOS by Tandoori+Haggis · 2004-01-26 13:57 · Score: 1

Block your own server?

--
My hyperlinks aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
Re:FreeDOS by Howard+Roark · 2004-01-26 14:04 · Score: 5, Informative

You install Linux on it.

If you read the fine print carefully, you will discover that the N series systems actually ship with no operating system installed. They include a FreeDOS media kit in the box. This way you don't have to pay any Microsoft tax on the machine. I suppose you could use the FreeDOS to test the machine before you installed the Linux distro of your choice,

--
Howard Roark, Architect
I believe in a Man's right to exist for his own sake.
Re:FreeDOS by pseudochaotic · 2004-01-26 14:10 · Score: 1

I don't think you can, actually. It's a Disk Operating System, so you can only operate on disks.

--
And the l33t shall inherit the 34r7h.
Re:FreeDOS by foonf · 2004-01-26 14:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

What will actually happen is the vast majority of buyers will install pirated copies of Windows. In fact, Dell probably assumes that will happen, because there aren't that many people who want to run Linux on cheap desktops, who would actually buy prebuilt machines, but there are many more who would love to save money on software they can easily download or "borrow" for free.

--

"(Man) tries to live his own life as if he were telling a story. But you have to choose: live or tell." --Sartre
Re:FreeDOS by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:53 · Score: 0

Or those of us who have an old boat anchor we bough a newer version of windows for. Its bad to assume ppl don't own a copy of Windows when you see that they're still in business from selling licenses this long. They're doing quite well too.
Re:FreeDOS by LinuxHam · 2004-01-26 14:56 · Score: 5, Informative

How about putting the OS you purchased a license to use on your old boxen, that's not currently being used?

Those licenses are not transferable. You can't even blow away a PC and reload it with another copy of the OS you bought with it.

--
Intelligent Life on Earth
Re:FreeDOS by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:28 · Score: 0

I think there is a market there. We need a desktop at my work and my boss prefers prebuilt machines from established companies (It is easier for him to fill out the forms and I can't really justify taking the time to collect all the parts). We were looking at the dell site today and were frustrated because we couldn't find any of their cheapest desktops either bare or with linux already installed (I'm still frustrated because the posters link dosent show anything about bare or freedoss pc's but thats besides the point).
Re:FreeDOS by Giltron · 2004-01-26 15:50 · Score: 1

Its not actaully cheaper than the one with windows. The price difference is strangly missing.
Re:FreeDOS by Windowser · 2004-01-26 16:49 · Score: 1

I see they also sell it with Red Hat Linux WS installed and supported.

See here

FreeDOS included in the box, ready to be installed, or Red Hat(R) Enterprise Linux WS

"Please note that the Red Hat(R) Linux operating system offered on Dell Precision systems is Dell factory-installed and therefore will receive the same support as other Dell factory-installed operating systems."

--
Avoid the MS tax, always buy I.B.M. PC's (I Built-it Myself)
Re:FreeDOS by C10H14N2 · 2004-01-26 17:02 · Score: 2, Informative

The Microsoft tax appears to be $109. The cheapest stripped down Dimension 2400 I could build was $428. The Windows version upgrade license is $99. Personally, if I WANTED Windows pre-installed, I'd prefer to be charged $200 for a full copy non-vendor-locked copy, thankyouverymuch.
Re:FreeDOS by j-pimp · 2004-01-26 17:08 · Score: 1

You can operate your disc system. Duh.
Auctually linux is the superior OS for operating on your discs IMHO. No OS has more Filesystem and Partition Table/Slice support than linux. Sure NTFS can be a little lacking, but in terms of all around File system for popular and obscure, Linux is the way to go.

Well you can do alot, probally not enough to justify a 2.1 GHZ PIV, but alot. Doom, Quake, Word Perfect 5.1, Lotous, and all sorts of stuff. If your interested in programming a single tasking OS, I'd go to www.openwatcom.com and learn the joy of a non gcc free compiler that comes with many 32 bit extenders.

--
--- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
Re:FreeDOS by 1u3hr · 2004-01-26 18:24 · Score: 1

I see they also sell it with Red Hat Linux WS installed and supported.
See here
And at the top of that page: "Dell recommends Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Professional."
Re:FreeDOS by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 19:14 · Score: 0

Actually, I believe that the OEM Windows license that comes with a new PC is tied to that machine and cannot be transfered to another machine because it is OEM and not retail?
Re:FreeDOS by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 21:57 · Score: 0

Actually, I believe that the OEM Windows license that comes with a new PC is tied to that machine and cannot be transfered to another machine because it is OEM and not retail?

Yups. Also, in Germany OEM restrictions in licenses were deemed non-binding (i.e. not legal) by the courts (at least if you're a consumer). This should be true for other EU countries too, but YMMV.
Re:FreeDOS by trakwebster · 2004-01-26 23:13 · Score: 1

Booting to a DOS floppy also generally makes a CD-driver available, and from a CD one can install software such as Linux commonly delivered on a CD.

--
== buddha is as buddha does ==

FreeDOS? by placeclicker · 2004-01-26 13:41 · Score: 3, Funny

What kind of home user uses a command line only OS?

--

Browse at -1, because trolls are often the most creative part of /.

Re:FreeDOS? by TheRealMindChild · 2004-01-26 13:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

The idea is that it is "Free", and probably doesn't violate some obscure Agreement Microsoft made Dell agree to, to not sell Linux or such, to be able to sell Windows at all.

--

"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
Re:FreeDOS? by Pikhq · 2004-01-26 13:48 · Score: 1

Me. (Working on Debian/FreeDOS dualboot)

--
echo "rm -rf ~/* ; echo "echo "Exit" ; exit" > ~/.bashrc ; exit" > ~user/.bashrc
Re:FreeDOS? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 13:49 · Score: 0

But did you buy your computer from DELL? :)
Re:FreeDOS? by Gojira+Shipi-Taro · 2004-01-26 13:50 · Score: 1

Dell still sells Linux on certain models as far as I can tell. THe key here is that we're talking about a sub-$400 commodity PC, and Dell can inprove their position on the slim margin on these machines by cutting out Microsoft.

An agreement not to sell systems with Linux would constitute a level of Anti-Trust that I doubt even Microsoft could defend, when prosecuted.

--
"Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
Re:FreeDOS? by arrow · 2004-01-26 13:52 · Score: 5, Funny

What kind of home user uses a command line only OS?

Now THAT is a stupid question to ask on slashdot.

--
symetrix. We are building a religion, a limited edition.
Re:FreeDOS? by RAMMS+EIN · 2004-01-26 13:54 · Score: 1

Actually, there are plenty of decent GUIs for DOS. I would say that some of them work better than X11, especially on the hardware they were designed for. But of course, all that is out of date now. On antiquated PC hardware, DOS performs better than a Real OS. On Real hardware, Real OSes work better. So the only good I see here is avoiding MicroSoft tax.

--
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Re:FreeDOS? by placeclicker · 2004-01-26 13:54 · Score: 1

I don't think the majority of slashdot buys computers from dell.

Plus im thinking home user = windows user (most often)

--

Browse at -1, because trolls are often the most creative part of /.
Re:FreeDOS? by Via_Patrino · 2004-01-26 13:55 · Score: 4, Insightful

Another probably answer of why they don't, sell with Linux but with FreeDOS is that they need to offer little support or none at all.
If you sell a computer with a software you need to support both, and supporting FreeDOS is much easier than Linux
Re:FreeDOS? by larry+bagina · 2004-01-26 14:04 · Score: 2, Informative

why would you dual boot into FreeDOS? There are a handful of DOS emulators/vms than run FreeDOS from within linux.

--
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Re:FreeDOS? by subk · 2004-01-26 14:27 · Score: 1

These are corporate PCs.

--
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have backups to corrupt.
Re:FreeDOS? by UserGoogol · 2004-01-26 14:32 · Score: 1

Linux isn't command line only. Of course, neither is FreeDOS. It's called OpenGEM.

--
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." -- Hanlon's Razor
Re:FreeDOS? by paganizer · 2004-01-26 14:35 · Score: 1

Can you run:
Masters of Magic?
Transport Tycoon Deluxe?
Lets see... Privateer?
Nope?
Thats why.
Of course, finding Dos drivers for new AC97 sound devices may be a problem.
(I can also think of some "serious" software that only works well on a straight Dos machine, but most of it won't run on new hardware, either).

--
Why, yes, I AM a Pagan Libertarian.
Re:FreeDOS? by timeOday · 2004-01-26 14:36 · Score: 1

My multifunction home server box doesn't even have a video card (I need all those PCI and ISA slots for the modem, 2 ethernet cards, a wifi card, sound card, scsi card, video capture board). No, it doesn't have onboard video either. I didn't think it would boot that way, but it does - ABIT IT5H mobo. Though curiously it *does* require a keyboard in order to boot.
Re:FreeDOS? by Pikhq · 2004-01-26 14:40 · Score: 1

Uh, cus when I partioned my HD, I left 23 mb free, and I needed something to do with the free space. :-P

--
echo "rm -rf ~/* ; echo "echo "Exit" ; exit" > ~/.bashrc ; exit" > ~user/.bashrc
Re:FreeDOS? by RLiegh · 2004-01-26 14:56 · Score: 0

When I hit 'reply', I was going to point out that books on DOS are easier to find at your local library than are books on Linux.

Actually, that's no longer true.

HOWEVER what books you are going to find at the library on linux are very sketchy as to which distribution and features they'll address.

With DOS, the features almost never change, and with a trip to the library, the user can easily educate himself (instead of going to said library and getting confused by the book on ninnle linux when he's really running gentoo).

between that simplicity, and the fact that the essential commands and procedures to run and install FreeDDOS can can easily fit on a handy "cheat-sheet" for the support dweebs, and it's easy to see why they'd want to offer support for DOS instead of linux.

[this is, of course, assuming that they were offering support in the first place, which they are not, AFAIK, though I have not RTFA and IIRC GNU is not linux but SCO is).
Re:FreeDOS? by Jacob0531 · 2004-01-26 14:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

Or, more precisely, it's free and doesn't violate the agreement Dell made (and all other MS OEM's) to not ship a PC without an operating system. Microsoft made this agreement under the assumption that if a PC was shipped without an OEM OS the user would install a pirated, or non-licensed, version of Windows on it.
Re:FreeDOS? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:17 · Score: 0

Actually, I'd say the vast majority of us do, especially for businesses. Dell has very good service on their hardware. Who cares what OS you end up putting on it?
Re:FreeDOS? by NormalVisual · 2004-01-26 15:29 · Score: 1

I've got an old P-200 IT5H-based system too - those motherboards seriously kicked ass when they first came out.

--
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Re:FreeDOS? by jbplou · 2004-01-26 16:03 · Score: 1

You can buy Dell computers with Red Hat Linux on them. Take a look at their server selection.
Re:FreeDOS? by MacGabhain · 2004-01-26 17:00 · Score: 1

I'm sure Taco would love it. He uses a dial-up, you know.
Re:FreeDOS? by spitzak · 2004-01-26 17:21 · Score: 1

Why don't they just include nothing with the machine? It would seem it would save them some money. Is there some requirement that a machine has to have an OS?
Re:FreeDOS? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 23:54 · Score: 0

Have you tried DOSEmu & DOSBOX? How about Bochs? I'd bet all of those titles you list would work on at least one of them.
Re:FreeDOS? by timmyf2371 · 2004-01-27 01:34 · Score: 1

+5 Funny, but I'd personally classify a home user as a Windows user/AOL user (sorry for the classifications here) and I'd classify most slashdotters as what I'd call Power Users.

--

Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
Re:FreeDOS? by swv3752 · 2004-01-27 02:48 · Score: 1

It would save them from the whole MS Piracy thing. MS had a whole website that was like an anti drug campaign- Just say NO to OS-free computers.

--
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
Re:FreeDOS? by Fjord · 2004-01-27 03:06 · Score: 1

There may be such a requirement by MS to allow Dell to avoid the OEM fee. MS could take a stronger position that an OSless computer is more likely to pirate their operating system.

--
-no broken link
Re:FreeDOS? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 04:21 · Score: 0

I don't know. I bought a Dell. Laptop. Used. From an off-lease reseller. :)

But given how crummy the hardware is (flaky keyboard, removable drives don't register well, noisy, etc) it's probably the last thing I'll buy with the Dell name on it. I'm figuring IBM for my next laptop.

IMO, This is great by HappyCitizen · 2004-01-26 13:41 · Score: 5, Interesting

Its good to see at least one PC Retailer distancing itself from Microsoft. I thought that I read somewhere that Microsoft will not allow you to distrubute windows if you distrubute another non-microsoft OS as an option. Maybe it was just Linux. That connects with my second question:
Why FreeDos Opposed to Linux?
If its because of some MS rules, then I understand. If not, they should include more options.

Eather way, they are allowing an OSS OS to be bundled. GOOD LUCK TO DELL!

--
http://www.beyourowneviloverlord.tk
http://www.frozenchickenthrowing.tk
http://www.killercamel.tk

Re:IMO, This is great by piznut · 2004-01-26 13:50 · Score: 4, Informative

Supposedly, you can get linux pre-installed. My assumption is that it will cost extra since it is Redhat Enterprise WS.
Their website seems pretty light on the details about linux but this page tells you what systems it is available for. Then again, anyone who actually wants linux on a desktop machine probably knows how to obtain and install their favorite distro anyway.
Re:IMO, This is great by Lehk228 · 2004-01-26 13:52 · Score: 1

I think they got bitch-slapped in court over those deals forbidding competing software/OS's

--
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Re:IMO, This is great by afidel · 2004-01-26 13:55 · Score: 2, Interesting

Because FreeDos requires zero setup, configuration, or implied promise of driver support. It would be very unlikely that someone could come up with a support call resulting from shipping with FreeDos but very likely that one might result with the inclusion of a Linux distro. There isn't any margin in a $300 PC for support.

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:IMO, This is great by queen+of+everything · 2004-01-26 13:59 · Score: 2, Informative

Wal-Mart has had a cheap workstation for sometime that you can purchase without an OS, or get it with Lindows (I think). They aren't available in stores, only on their website, but its good that there are options out there.

It'd make a great little server to play with

--
"Wisdom is not a product of schooling but of the life-long attempt to acquire it." -Albert Einstein
Re:IMO, This is great by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:21 · Score: 0

I've bought two of them, one with Lindows and one with Lycoris.

I wiped the one with Lindows and installed Mandrake.
Re:IMO, This is great by H310iSe · 2004-01-26 14:28 · Score: 1

I've bought a dozen or more of those lindows Wallmart PCs, $200 u get 20-40gig hd, cd, basic video/audio, 128meg ram and a 1.2 ghz duron. The dells might have significantly better hardware for the additional 100 (couldn't find the n-series on the dell website so i'm just going on a previous poster's info). The wallmart pcs are great low end boxes though, msi motherboards, award bios, all totally open and 'normal' (compared to,say, some of the weird shit you get used to get in emachines, etc.).

--
closed minded is as closed minded does
Re:IMO, This is great by bhtooefr · 2004-01-26 14:29 · Score: 1

However, some Joe Blow is going to see $319, buy it, and try to mess with FreeDOS. "Whar's the Intarweb Explorer icon?"
Re:IMO, This is great by kindofblue · 2004-01-26 14:34 · Score: 3, Interesting

The real reason, as quoted from a CNet article on Aug 13, 2002:
The new desktops appear to be a slick interpretation of Microsoft's new licensing terms and a way to navigate customer demand for PCs without an OS installed. The Microsoft licensing terms, which were put in place on Aug. 1, specify that PC makers must ship PCs with an operating system. The new policy exists to prevent piracy and to better track OS shipments.
Re:IMO, This is great by major.morgan · 2004-01-26 14:39 · Score: 1

My understanding from prior articles awhile back is that the MS license says that you cannot distribute PC's without an OS (or you will pay a Windows license anyway). Dell's answer was FreeDOS - it's even cheaper than putting RedHat or some other commercial Linux distro on there. Additionally think of support costs - "No we won't help you install that XFree driver, your machine shipped with DOS."
Re:IMO, This is great by Pharmboy · 2004-01-26 15:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

Someone give him a point for the good, relevent article. One quote did bother me tho...

N-series PCs will cost the same as PCs that ship with Windows, a Dell representative said.

Which means they are technically charging you MORE for the computer, since they do not incur the cost of the Microsoft license. Or you can look at is as: "We charge you the same for FreeDOS as we do for Windows", which is kinda expensive for FreeDOS (I have installed it, its a mediocre DOS 3.3 clone by their own admission).

This does mean bigger profits for Dell, but it doesn't represent a better value for customers.

--
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
Re:IMO, This is great by Brandybuck · 2004-01-26 18:18 · Score: 1

I thought that I read somewhere that Microsoft will not allow you to distrubute windows if you distrubute another non-microsoft OS as an option.

Yeah, you read it hear. Now you know better than the believe the crap you read on Slashdot.

Every OEM contract is different. While there may be one or two out there that prohibit shipping Windows if even one unit happens to be non-Windows, they're more of evidence pointing to stupid OEM's rather than Microsoft scheming. I greatly suspect that the "standard" OEM contract with Microsoft is of the form "huge discounts if you're exclusively Windows, but lesser discounts that are still significantly cheaper than retail if you're not." Contracts of this nature are a dime-a-dozen, and completely ethical.

Microsoft is in business to make money. If Dell told Micrsoft to take their contract and shove it, Bill Gates would be grovelling at Michael Dell's feet the next morning. Microsoft is not so stupid as to throw away tens of thousands of unit sales just to spite the dozen or so they lost.

--
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Re:IMO, This is great by DeBaas · 2004-01-26 19:45 · Score: 2, Informative

Its good to see at least one PC Retailer distancing itself from Microsoft.

I'm not sure this qualifies as distancing itself. However, another big PC retailer (at least here in the Netherlands) that does this is NEC. We order PC there without Windows quite often, and they are delivered with freedos. Probably for the same reason.

--
---
Re:IMO, This is great by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 21:53 · Score: 0

Which means they are technically charging you MORE for the computer, since they do not incur the cost of the Microsoft license.

Dell doesn't pay per single computer shipped. The reason they're shipping these PCs with FreeDos is exactly because their volume license with Microsoft doesn't allow for PCs to be shipped without OS.

Dell will save some money, mostly because pre-installing windows is a bigger chore than inserting a CD; and if they sell a substantial enough volume of non-windows PCs, they might save on their volume license (e.g. a 5 million PC license instead of a 6 million PC license because they sold 5.1 million PCs of which 100k shipped with FreeDOS).

They wouldn't be doing it if it didn't save some money, but expect it to be more in the coupla-measely-bucks than windows-license-fee region.

Also, why aren't they shipping and supporting linux, which is actually useful to most users of new gee-whiz computers (as opposed to embedded and P1 folks)? I don't know, but I'm sure Microsoft likes it.
Re:IMO, This is great by jez9999 · 2004-01-27 00:43 · Score: 1

There isn't any margin in a $300 PC for support.

No? Don't they support PCs with Windows installed then?

--
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
Re:IMO, This is great by cubic6 · 2004-01-27 05:22 · Score: 1

Do they have AGP slots? I've been looking for some cheap boxen for desktop workstations (I use a laptop), and I want to be able to throw in a decent video card.

--
Karma: Contrapositive
Re:IMO, This is great by Pharmboy · 2004-01-27 07:03 · Score: 1

Dell doesn't pay per single computer shipped. The reason they're shipping these PCs with FreeDos is exactly because their volume license with Microsoft doesn't allow for PCs to be shipped without OS.

You still pay more, because you pay the same if it has windows or if it doesn't, so you are technically getting less for the same price.

Also, why aren't they shipping and supporting linux,

They have for years, but only on servers, starting with RH 7.x

--
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!

Free Denial Of Service attack? by (1337)+God · 2004-01-26 13:41 · Score: 0, Funny

Hmmm, so you get it home, set it up, get online, then tell 'em "OK I'm ready" and then they packet jam the heck out of you?

Sounds kinda kinky ;-)

--

Background: 28/M/Bi-Sexual; Owner of a Linux company; MBA Harvard 2003; B.S. Comp Sci MIT 2000

feel like losing data? by Skuld-Chan · 2004-01-26 13:41 · Score: 1

I swear I've never had a freedos installation actually work for more than 5 reboots. Its kinda sad :(.

Re:feel like losing data? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:35 · Score: 0

I swear I've never had a freedos installation actually work for more than 5 reboots.

Might want to learn how to use a computer. Just a thought.
Re:feel like losing data? by eugene+ts+wong · 2004-01-26 15:35 · Score: 1

When did you try this? It's been a while since I played around with FreeDOS, but I think that the problem that you speak of might have been solved over 1.5 years ago. I'm just guessing. If you give a date of when you tried this, then everybody might have a clearer idea of what you are referring to.

--
testing out my trending skills
Re:feel like losing data? by Skuld-Chan · 2004-01-26 18:34 · Score: 1

How about last week? I installed the latest build I could find and it was working great until I rebooted like 5 times then all I got was garbage in the section where it usually says its booting.

Same machine installed ms-dos 6.2 just fine.
Re:feel like losing data? by eugene+ts+wong · 2004-01-28 01:10 · Score: 1

Hmm, since it was only last week, I think that the problem is different from what I experienced.

Too bad. I hope things work out well, whatever you decide to do.

Take care.

--
testing out my trending skills

Linux by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 13:41 · Score: 0

Why don't they sell linux? They would have a little bit more profit that way.

Re:Linux by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 13:46 · Score: 0

They tried it in the past. There's no big conspiracy linking them to MS, that's just what 99+% of the people who buy Dells want.
Re:Linux by soft_guy · 2004-01-26 13:53 · Score: 2, Troll

I think he means "as opposed to FreeDOS which no one's heard of".

Maybe they figured that Linux folks could install Linux themselves and this way they aren't putting themselves at risk in case SCO wins their lawsuit. (Which is a very small risk, but maybe Dell doesn't see it that way.)

Plus, Microsoft *really* hates Linux. I still have some friends who work there ( I used to work there at one time), and they all say that the culture within the company is just an absolute hatred for Linux.

--
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
Re:Linux by benh999 · 2004-01-26 14:10 · Score: 1

They do sell Red Hat Enerprise and give out RH9 with small business PC's.
Re:Linux by The+Analog+Kid · 2004-01-26 14:13 · Score: 1

They started doing this before SCO even filed their case.

It's nice to see though OEMs are trying to pull away from Microsoft, it may be a slow process but still it will eventually happen, the only problem is Microsoft may pull a fast one the OEMs saying the must ship Windows. However it seems unlikely because someone will pick up on it and since it's pretty much anti-trust, and something tells me the OEMs will just not renew their agreements, hopefully the majority won't renew, and they will start selling Linux by default. That's some wishful thinking right now though, but it might happen.

I can see Microsoft inside being anti-Linux, people usually hate and fear what they don't understand.
Re:Linux by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:31 · Score: 2, Funny

Plus, Microsoft *really* hates Linux. I still have some friends who work there ( I used to work there at one time), and they all say that the culture within the company is just an absolute hatred for Linux.

So you're saying that the Linux community copies not only all the major productivity programs and the look and feel of MS OSes, but the corporate culture of hating the opposition as well?

Huh. ;)

So... by SilentT · 2004-01-26 13:42 · Score: 1

Why exactly would anyone pick this Free-DOS thing over Linux?

Re:So... by bsharitt · 2004-01-26 13:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

I think they are trying to avoid parts of their OEM agreement with Microsoft that bars them from shipping PCs without and OS, and FreeDOS is more neutral than picking a linux distro to ship with it.
Re:So... by FreakWent · 2004-01-26 13:46 · Score: 2, Informative

to run freesco from the HDD you need a booting fat32, free dos is nice and easy...

This doesn't explain why you'd buy it with a brand new Dell though.
Re:So... by Deraj+DeZine · 2004-01-26 13:48 · Score: 0

It runs DOS games (Syndicate, Raptor, etc.) faster than any emulator under Linux, for one... I guess that's about it, though =)

And yes, I've tried DOSBox. It's quite slow for protected-mode games. I'm sure it will get better. This post isn't terribly serious.

--
True story.
Re:So... by pchan- · 2004-01-26 14:12 · Score: 1

This doesn't explain why you'd buy it with a brand new Dell though

on the contrary, it does explain it.

1) and most obvious, freedos is SMALL, and takes them about a second to image it onto every drive. big time savings in their assembly pipeline.

2) dell assumes that you're probably going to install windows. if linux was installed, the hdd would probably be ext3 or other linux fs, and you would need to spend your time reformatting (yes, i know you can run linux on fat, but then you'd be bitching about that). with freedos, the the hdd is already formatted and ready for you to install win9x. if you're going to install an nt series of windows, you would have had to reformat anyway (since no other os runs on ntfs).

3) if you're installing linux, you're probably smart enough to deal with drive partitions and formatting. for a windows install, it's less likely.
Re:So... by flashbang · 2004-01-26 14:17 · Score: 1

Check out this. Looks like you can order it with Red Hat (enterprise) installed. I think that's pretty positive..

--
My sig left me for a younger user id.
Re:So... by bjhonermann · 2004-01-26 14:18 · Score: 1

You're close, this is certainly a ploy to get around the agreement that they have with Microsoft.

The reason for using FreeDOS, however, has less to do with politics than it does with having to support whatever OS they ship the computer with. Dell knows that roughly .1% of the people who order these computers are actually going to use FreeDos (hell, they don't even pre-install freedos when they ship the computer) so it adds almost nothing to their support costs. If, however, they started shipping with Linux they would have to train support staff to deal with linux issues. That can get pricey quick.

Brian
Re:So... by c1ay · 2004-01-26 15:04 · Score: 1

Why exactly would anyone pick this Free-DOS thing over Linux?
Can't you see it? Michael Dell is trying to be the next IBM. With his new GPL'd software offering he is sure to move to the top of SCO's hit list and into the SCO Lawsuit Hall Of Fame. I'm sure Darl has his legal team drawing up the papers as we write. Hurry up and send Mike and email that says something like int i = 1 so Darl will think he has a case.

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Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:21 · Score: 0

Why are you telling us your IP address?
Your ISP appears to be apid.com.

Yes but... by Comatose51 · 2004-01-26 13:43 · Score: 1, Insightful

Yes but what can you honestly do with FreeDOS? I assume that FreeDOS is similar to MSDOS. Even if someone gave me MSDOS today I wouldn't want to run it. Unless you're buying the value PC for paying abandonware or really old PC games that you own, I am not sure how useful the setup would be. What is the point of giving people FreeDOS when you can just as easily give them Linux?

--
EvilCON - Made Famous by /.

Re:Yes but... by dan2550 · 2004-01-26 13:49 · Score: 0

dont quote me on this but i think it is like windows 3.11. theres still a 'dos' backbone but a gui will let you run (slightly) newer games.
Re:Yes but... by aardvarkjoe · 2004-01-26 13:49 · Score: 1

Unless you're buying the value PC for paying abandonware or really old PC games that you own,

Actually, I'm half tempted to do just that. (Well, I'm unlikely to buy one from Dell, but several times recently I've considered putting together a DOS system for the express purpose of playing games.) DOSemu, the last few times I've tried it, has always been difficult to get working, and never works well.

My biggest issue is finding space for another computer. My house is crowded enough as it is.

--

How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
Re:Yes but... by beaverbrother · 2004-01-26 13:49 · Score: 1

Dell was told in their license agreement with Microsoft that they had to ship it with a DOS opperating system. This was their get-around.
Re:Yes but... by amokk · 2004-01-26 13:50 · Score: 2, Insightful

Well, you can always buy this PC for dirt cheap and then install a unlicensed version of Windows on it...

--
I think, therefore I am an Atheist.
Re:Yes but... by InodoroPereyra · 2004-01-26 13:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

Yes but what can you honestly do with FreeDOS?

Not much, but it doesn't really matter. Dell is sending a message to Redmond, wait a couple weeks until they get a new deal with M$ ... everyone is doing this very same little trick these days, and I guess freedos is easier to support than linux for Dell while the negotiations take place ...
Re:Yes but... by retro128 · 2004-01-26 13:52 · Score: 4, Interesting

I think the idea is so you don't have to pay the "Microsoft Tax". They're not putting Linux on because they're not prepared to support it.

So you can put on whatever OS you want and Dell doesn't owe you software support. Obviously, this deal is designed to appeal to geeks who want cheap systems.

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-R
Re:Yes but... by _Sexy_Pants_ · 2004-01-26 13:54 · Score: 1

While I wish such an abandonware machine would work, the easiest way is just to buy an old computer for them, that way you won't have to wrestle with the hardware. I've tried... Oh how I've tried

--
Look it's a joke about my sig IN MY SIG! LOL!
Re:Yes but... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 13:57 · Score: 0

It's not that they expect anyone to USE it! It's just a way to not pay Microsoft, and for Dell to not piss off Microsoft by shipping linux.

It's obvious that they expect YOU to install linux, but this way they don't have to support you.
Re:Yes but... by amokk · 2004-01-26 13:58 · Score: 1

Hmm, a Disk Operating System Operating System?

I must have fallen behind

--
I think, therefore I am an Atheist.
Re:Yes but... by 0racle · 2004-01-26 13:58 · Score: 1

Well that lets out XP, and since MS doesn't make DOS based OS's anymore, well I guess this was Dells only choice. I understand now.

--
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
Re:Yes but... by Orien · 2004-01-26 14:04 · Score: 3, Interesting

That is a question that a lot of people are going to ask. The answer is, if you are asking that question then it is obviously not for you, but belive it or not there is acually a lot of uses for it, it's just a niche market that isn't going to be for the masses. It definatly is a great project though.
There is a lot of old DOS software that is still in use by people with old hardware that don't want to upgrade. Such as small businesses that can't afford consultants that still use the same Point of Sale equipment they bought 10 years ago. They can't afford an IT guy, let alone one that can set up a Linux system for them, and a new system would cost way too much. If their computer dies and they don't have the DOS disk anymore they can use FreeDos to install on another computer, or buy a Dell preloaded with it.
Another example are non-profit organizations such as churches, that also don't have money to spend on technology consultants and still try to use the software they already have. In fact I just spent Saturday morning at my church working on a DOS machine. They have a geneology library that is open to the community to come and do family history with, and they use old DOS software for it. Someone donated a 486 to them and I set it up so they could use their existing software. That one already had DOS, but if they get a computer in without an OS, or if I have to replace a harddrive, FreeDos will be the first thing I try.
Also on the freedos site they mention that freedos is used a lot by hardware manufactuers who need to make a bootable floppy do things like flash rom for bios updates and such.

--
SCO.com uses Linux
Re:Yes but... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:07 · Score: 0

IIRC, the contract between Dell and MS requires that the system ship "with an operating system."

Dell does not want to completely anger MS nor do they want to support Linux. But, they want to sell inexpensive "white box" computers.

Throw a FreeDOS CD in the box and:
- They have not completely angered MS.
- They don't have to support the other OS since most people will not install the FreeDOS.
- They can sell to the "white box" market.
Re:Yes but... by way2trivial · 2004-01-26 14:11 · Score: 3, Insightful

perhaps not 'easier to support'
but litigation proof, should the FUD of SCO prevail
if I buy the system with a linux cd in the box and wind up owing licensing fees to SCO, I can complain to dell..
if I buy the box with freedos, and load linux, then dell has 'clean hands'

--
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Re:Yes but... by dmaxwell · 2004-01-26 14:23 · Score: 1

You can prove the machine is at least minimally functional. It boots from the CD so that part is probably OK. There is probably some provision to install to the hard drive so you know you can boot from that. It would also provide minimum sanity checks of the system board, video, and RAM.

Personally, I think a Knoppix CD would be even better. But as someone else pointed out, there is no expectation that anyone will do much with FreeDOS or want support.
Re:Yes but... by iminplaya · 2004-01-26 14:25 · Score: 1

Maybe they're sending a message to SCO also, or do they "own" that too?

--
What?
Re:Yes but... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:28 · Score: 0

"What is the point of giving people FreeDOS when you can just as easily give them Linux?"

Unless SCO starts suing over FreeDOS, it's 1 less legal worry for Dell.
Re:Yes but... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:37 · Score: 0

Dell has actually been shipping FreeDOS machines for a while -- although it hasn't always been obvious from their website.

Most purchasers of these machines have volume licences directly from Microsoft.
Re:Yes but... by Colonel+Cholling · 2004-01-26 15:29 · Score: 1

>Yes but what can you honestly do with FreeDOS?

Not much, but it doesn't really matter. Dell is sending a message to Redmond, wait a couple weeks until they get a new deal with M$ ...

Yes, and what a message it is: "If you don't do what we want, we'll make a crappy computer with a virtually useless OS that nobody will buy! Take that, Bill!"

--

I am Sartre of the Borg. Existence is futile.
Re:Yes but... by borkus · 2004-01-26 16:33 · Score: 1

I'm wondering if the price of the Microsoft OS is causing manufacturers issues. As the prices of PCs are going down, all of the components are getting cheaper - hard drives, RAM, processor's, etc. However, the operating system price is the same - whether you buy a high-end gaming system or a basic desktop. Sure, there's XP Home Edition vs. XP Professional, but the choice there is between expensive and really expensive. The OS may be the one thing that is keeping manufacturers from reducing their costs. By using FreeDOS, they can offer a lower cost system AND perhaps force Microsoft to changes its fee structure.
Re:Yes but... by fucksl4shd0t · 2004-01-26 21:27 · Score: 1

I think, therefore I am an Atheist.
Do you believe in God?
Amokk: I think not!
--Amokk vanishes in a puff of logic--
One more bigoted Atheist vanquished. Those guys are easier to take out than Christians!

--
Like what I said? You might like my music
Re:Yes but... by Cro+Magnon · 2004-01-28 03:14 · Score: 1

For one thing, I can run it on my old 8088.

--
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.

Inquiring minds want to know by The-Bus · 2004-01-26 13:43 · Score: 5, Funny

Do they at least still ship with the spyware? If there aren't 78 desktop shortcuts pre-installed, it's not a Dell!

--

Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

Re:Inquiring minds want to know by H310iSe · 2004-01-26 14:32 · Score: 1, Informative

No shit! I fired dell over a year ago when I got a shipment of 3 boxes with what was absolutely the *worst* software build I have ever seen in a prebuilt system (barring the free pcs that briefly flared a few years ago). I mean, I couldn't believe we paid for this crap, ads, buggy & gimped shareware that actually bluescreened XP when certain photos were opened, terrible MS Office install, buggy wireless encryption, fucked up symantec sales pitch. Really, really horrible. I've had good experiences with Dell's hardware support though, so I'd think about Dell again if I could buy plain old $300 boxes from them... If I can get over how pissed I am about the crap they've done w/ software in the past.

--
closed minded is as closed minded does
Re:Inquiring minds want to know by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:04 · Score: 0

Dell has never shipped a computer with spyware on it. How do I know this? Do work tech support for Dell.
Re:Inquiring minds want to know by Blackhalo · 2004-01-26 15:06 · Score: 1

Here's a trick. Go to www.dell.com, select small business, and select servers and then poweredge (I think). There you will see a system for 300 bucks, or less. The site is a little vague on the system details but I have it on good authority that it ships with a pci video card but has an AGP port to put your latest and greatest video card in. You can get it with windows (server), linux, free dos. or, get this, NO OS. This may be a loss leader to get there server sales numbers up, so I don't know how long it will last if too may people start ordering them.

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"There is nothing to do it. But to do it." -Floyd Pepper
Re:Inquiring minds want to know by Sabalon · 2004-01-26 16:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

$399, after a $100 mail in rebate. Give me a fuckin break. I am so damn sick of seeing "after a mail-in rebate" everywhere. It's at the point where I choose not to do business with companies that pull that BS.
Re:Inquiring minds want to know by Blackhalo · 2004-01-26 16:19 · Score: 1

Sory was 299 w/o a mail in rebate. My guess would be that a loss leader became just a loss. Just wait 3 days and it will change again. Prolly a 50$ instant rebate. They switch that stuff around all the time. Marketing I guess they call it. I share your sentiment in that I will not buy anyting that has a mail in rebate.

--
"There is nothing to do it. But to do it." -Floyd Pepper
Re:Inquiring minds want to know by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 17:54 · Score: 0

Of course. They just have to hide it in AUTOEXEC.BAT now.
Re:Inquiring minds want to know by TheBoostedBrain · 2004-01-26 20:13 · Score: 1

What? I remember that my first dell laptop (Latitude c600) came with red-hat 7.3 preinstalled. When I ordered my current laptop (Inspiron 44150) I tried to convince them to send it with Linux or without OS at all. When I turned it on the first time, there was a screen saying that pressing any key would imply accepting MS-EULA. Before I pressed any key, I loaded my Laptop with RH9, so I've never seen the shortcuts.

--
-- When did Ignorance Become a Point of View?
Re:Inquiring minds want to know by The-Bus · 2004-01-26 23:25 · Score: 1

I was referring to this story...

--
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
Re:Inquiring minds want to know by Harker · 2004-01-26 23:51 · Score: 1

There's a solution to this...

Do what I do, and sit down and uninstall EVERYTHING you don't need or want. I spend a couple of hours cleaning up every machien I get that's got pre-installed OS because every company out there does the same thing.

They put in stuff that some people could make use of (guides and video how-to's) for those who need them. Me, I prefer to wipe them off and recover harddrive space.

--
When VCR's are outlawed, only outlaws will have VCR's.
Re:Inquiring minds want to know by csbaker77598 · 2004-01-27 02:31 · Score: 1

I've taken to saying the following:
Rebate is French for "The check's in the mail."

--
"The more you sweat on EARTH, the less you bleed in SPACE."

They've announced this before by debilo · 2004-01-26 13:43 · Score: 1

Check out this article, it's from August 2002.

I wonder what was holding them back.

This is news? by Orien · 2004-01-26 13:44 · Score: 5, Informative

I know this isn't exactly new info, but if you look at freedos.org you will see that they have a news post about it. It has been available for a while now, but only in Canada. The news is that it is for US also now.

FreeDos is a cool project. You should check it out if you haven't yet.

--

SCO.com uses Linux

A wake up call for Microsoft? by bc90021 · 2004-01-26 13:44 · Score: 5, Informative

Since Dell has half the market cap of IBM. which makes it a sizable company in its own right, Microsoft (granted, which still has a larger market cap than both combined) should realise that two of the biggest computer makers are trying to distance themselves. If they weren't already afraid of the free movement (whether it be Linux or FreeDOS!) they should be paying a lot more attention very soon!

--
libertarianswag.com

Re:A wake up call for Microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:29 · Score: 0

1) Market cap means nothing

2) Gates was not previously under the illusion that IBM or Mr. Dell loved him
Re:A wake up call for Microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:55 · Score: 0

This is purely about Dell's market share. The market is not growing purely in Microsoft's direction. Come on now, do you really think a corporation like Dell would want to miss out on anything that is becoming a more sizeable slice of the PC market? Dell's support infrastructure is not currently setup to handle a large volume of Linux (or whatever) calls except 'best effort support' in the higher tiers of it's PC support group (remember, you pay for what you get). There isn't enough demand to make it profitable, currently. However, the alternative market does indeed exist and everyone knows that it is growing.

justice dept. by millette · 2004-01-26 13:44 · Score: 3, Interesting

I wonder if it has anything with this January 16th document...

Re:justice dept. by This+is+outrageous! · 2004-01-26 14:47 · Score: 2, Informative

Right... and this would be the relevant section (emphasis mine):
"Regarding the complaints concerning the difficulty of end users to purchase desktop computers without Microsoft Windows pre-installed, this complaint appears related to Marketing Development Program funds that Microsoft provides to OEMs. Under the MDP Microsoft provides financial incentives per units distributed to OEMs that meet specific milestone criteria established by Microsoft ( e.g., logo design, advertising copy). However, these MDP funds are reduced by $1 per unit if any desktop computer is sold by the OEM without a license to an operating system (Windows or otherwise). According to Microsoft, this provision is directed towards software piracy concerns. As structured, the MDP does not appear on its face to violate the explicit terms of the Final Judgment with respect to the pre-installation of operating systems."

--
This is...
O U T R A G E O U S !

irony by dan2550 · 2004-01-26 13:44 · Score: 0

isn't ironic how a dell article can have a big hp ad (unless your a subscriber)

Re:irony by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 13:50 · Score: 0

i don't know. is it?
Re:irony by idiotfromia · 2004-01-26 14:11 · Score: 1

...or unless you have Firebird's free Adblock extension.

Element Computer by Deraj+DeZine · 2004-01-26 13:44 · Score: 5, Informative

They're not exactly Dell (referring to the size, not the quality), but Element Computer has a strict no-Microsoft policy to avoid paying expensive licensing fees to Microsoft. All the computers they sell run Lycoris Desktop/LX (a Linux distribution). They've got some pretty nice computers for the price... now if only I wasn't so cheap...

--
True story.

Re:Element Computer by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 13:58 · Score: 0

Not exactly Dell is an understatement. I've looked at their computers. Overpriced for less features. Should I pay more out of my pocket so that Microsoft doesn't get a small cut?

Maybe I'll waste money on ridiculous solar panels, including taxpayer subsidies, so that I can say that I'm green, and poorer for it.

While I'd never buy a Dell thanks to their bios and licensing stunts, I wouldn't waste money on an Element computer either. I'll find another computer at a lower price than Element, with better hardware features including larger screen, better resolution, more memory, larger hard drive, which includes Windows, at a lower price, then wipe windows and install Linux. At least until Dell and other major manufacturers stop their games and offer a windows delete credit that isn't a joke.

Element may have great Linux computers, but I'm not paying a premium for inferior "options".

What is the point? by ryanmoffett · 2004-01-26 13:45 · Score: 4, Insightful

While it's nice to see that there is an option, this seems like an empty gesture. Not to knock the FreeDOS project, kudos to you, there are SO many better offerings out there that could be packaged. What are businesses or home users going to do with FreeDOS? If anything this comes across like a message that says, "Here's your other choice, it's not really an option at all, is it?"

Re:What is the point? by captain_craptacular · 2004-01-26 13:55 · Score: 1, Insightful

The point is that you don't tack $189 worth of MS tax onto the price of your box when you're just going to format and install [insert favorite x86 compatible OS here].

--
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security
Re:What is the point? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 13:57 · Score: 1, Insightful

But if you package FreeDOS in the deal you know for certain that they wont use it so you will not get complains about it. If you distribute a Linux distribution with it than there is a small chance they will try it and complain about something not working correctly. complains cost Dell money so they wouldn't want that to happen
Re:What is the point? by bhtooefr · 2004-01-26 14:09 · Score: 1

It's not for use. The color-coded setup guide probably says "Install the included FreeDOS operating system or (recommended) purchase an operating system and install it*.

Dell does not support operating systems not included with this system."
Re:What is the point? by hazzey · 2004-01-26 14:10 · Score: 2, Informative

I read about something like this a while back. It seemed that Microsoft's arguments were mostly about having NO operating system on a computer(and therefore a pirated version of windows being installed). So what Dell is doing is just putting the lowest form of an operating system on it to get around that argument. That is a good idea because I'm sure that not everyone would want what Dell put on (RedHat/Suse/...)
Re:What is the point? by LetterJ · 2004-01-26 15:09 · Score: 1

While you have a point in the abstract, if you think that there's actually a full $189 worth of Windows in those PC's, you're nuts. The last copy of XP Home I bought was $85 and NOT an upgrade.

--

The Glass is Too Big: My Take on Things
Re:What is the point? by LnxAddct · 2004-01-26 16:11 · Score: 1

The OS is not installed, but simply included. The terms of the agreement state that every PC must include an OS, to cut down on piracy and for better tracking. Therefore your computer won't even boot out of the box, which I prefer because that way I don't have to remove anything. FreeDOS is just packaged because Dell won't have to support any OS not included and I guess they are assuming that noone will use FreeDOS.
Regards,
Steve
Re:What is the point? by Steamhead · 2004-01-26 19:11 · Score: 0

But it IS cheaper, which means you don't have to buy windows before installing linux on it.

Wee! by NanoGator · 2004-01-26 13:45 · Score: 4, Funny

A small handful of people rejoice!!!

--
"Derp de derp."

Re:Wee! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 13:55 · Score: 0

Think about it people, this is cool!
Get a cheaper computer, steal windows or run whatever your favorite os is, you're good to go and you've saved some money!

Dell Servers + Linux by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 13:45 · Score: 1, Informative

This isn't that new. When shopping for servers at Dell, you'll notice several OS options, including RedHat and "No OS." Granted, it's good to see a non-Microsoft for desktop machines.

It feels wrong. by beaverbrother · 2004-01-26 13:46 · Score: 1, Insightful

At least since OEM versions of windows for them probably barely cost anything. Its like having mcDonalds downgrade their free toy from a fun windup to to just a damn doll that doesn't do shit.

Re:It feels wrong. by pla · 2004-01-26 14:18 · Score: 3, Interesting

Its like having mcDonalds downgrade their free toy from a fun windup to to just a damn doll that doesn't do shit.

I prefer to think of it as getting a happymeal toy that lets you record your own messages, rather than just repeating "Can we go to McDonalds", "I love Ronald", and "Big Macs don't make you fat", over and over and over.

Realistically, you can do two things with one of these (and no, I don't include "install FreeDOS" as a viable option)... You can install Linux on it, or you can install the version of Windows you bought for your old machine (which, assuming you remove it from your old machine, you won't violate any likely-to-stand-in-court aspects of the Windows EULA).
Re:It feels wrong. by juventasone · 2004-01-26 20:37 · Score: 1

...or you can install the version of Windows you bought for your old machine (which, assuming you remove it from your old machine, you won't violate any likely-to-stand-in-court aspects of the Windows EULA).
Actually in most cases you can't. Any computer that ships with Windows comes with an OEM liscense that is non-transferable. If you purchased a retail Windows upgrade, you would still be missing a liscense for the Windows you're upgrading from. The only way its transferable is if you purchased a full retail version and removed it from the old system.
Re:It feels wrong. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 02:25 · Score: 0

Or..

Install a pirated copy of Windows

And feel better about using Windows then if you paid for it

This is nice ... by tcgwebs · 2004-01-26 13:46 · Score: 0, Redundant

This is nice, but why not just ship it with Linux? Any flavor would do. Or would that be a violation of the distribution agreement that they made with Microsoft? And who uses DOS of any kind these days anyway? Why not just ship it with no OS at all? If you know enough about computers to use DOS, you probably know enough to install an OS just as easily.

--
Domain name registration for $8.79 per year
879domains.co

Re:This is nice ... by bhtooefr · 2004-01-26 14:01 · Score: 1

Many large OEMs are in agreements that say that an OS has to be bundled, and it must not be Linux. For a while (AFAIK), HP was doing the same thing before they got their agreement changed.

Why not Linux by Morosoph · 2004-01-26 13:46 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why FreeDos Opposed to Linux?

Simple. Every linux distibution is readily available, and attracts zealots. Why offend them thorugh favouritism?

--
Wikileaks, no DNS

Re:Why not Linux by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 13:55 · Score: 5, Insightful

I think the answer may be even simpler than that.

In one word, "Support"

It's a lot easier (i.e. cheaper) to support FreeDOS than linux. You are still free to wipe the drive and install your OS of choice. ...I'm pretty sure that's what they expect you to do anyway. ...but this way, Dell doesn't get stuck supporting anything more complicated than FreeDOS on it's low end PC's.
Re:Why not Linux by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:22 · Score: 0

DOS support.... them were the days.

"Hit the reset button".
Re:Why not Linux by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:34 · Score: 0

Ahem...the drive ISN'T installed with FreeDOS. ANd I I doubt there's any agreement on Dell's part to support it.

So why not just include a Linux cd instead of/as well as FreeDOS? I've bought network cards and switches that came with a gratis Linux install cd. (SMC packaged turbolinux with consumer networking products) At least with a Linux cd, the average buyer would have a chance of getting it online and might find that there's a whole lot of useful software installed on his system. Nothing against FreeDOS --5 years ago I wished out loud on this forum that FreeDOS would be the only preinstalled OS available from a storebought PC. If customers wanted a modern OS they should buy it and install it. That way Windows would actually be competing for consumer dollars and consumers would have to make a choice: hundreds of dollars for MS OS + MS Office versus 29 dollars for a Linux distribution including OpenOffice.org. But as long as we're throwing non-supported software into a packing carton why not make it something the consumer could actually use? After all, Debian don't cost nothing.
Re:Why not Linux by HiThere · 2004-01-26 15:06 · Score: 1

That's not so bad, actually. I can install FreeDos on a small partition and actually ask them for support...I may start considering Dell again!

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Why not Linux by antiMStroll · 2004-01-26 16:17 · Score: 1

....and attracts zealots.
Any chance of adding a 'Bigot' moderation category?
Re:Why not Linux by Felinoid · 2004-01-26 16:46 · Score: 1

Also FreeDos is easier to install.
(Easier than Windows as well)
No drivers... not much of anything.

I once asked a tech at a local VAR why they were preinstalling Windows on every machine (this was when Microsoft first started doing the whole 'Install Windows and Dos on every box' liccens deal) and he answered simply it makes it easier to test the machine before they ship it.

Now Dell preinstalls a totally free and simple operating system runs a comprehensive test (A Dos app of course) and if it's all good then ships it.
The end user is expected to flush it and install something else and that is fine.

--
I don't actually exist.
Re:Why not Linux by Morosoph · 2004-01-26 23:55 · Score: 1

Assumptions. Linux is what I use, but it would be hard to deny that some people's preferences are so strong that they would be offended were the wrong distribution shipped. Since it's so easy to install, why risk the downside? I suspect that support has a lot to do with it too, though.

That's probably why I got my "flamebait" mod though. Must remember: boring posts only.

--
Wikileaks, no DNS
Re:Why not Linux by ahg · 2004-01-27 04:22 · Score: 1

I think it might also have something to do with the Dell utility partition (it may be called soemthing else) Anyway.. Dell systems I've used, have a small partition with Diagnostic utilites that can be booted into with the right key held down. This needs an OS. I'm taking a wild guess that they're using FreeDOS for that anyway... so now they just include it in the box and perhaps installedon the main boot partition too.

I wonder if the FreeDOS CD also has their utilites loaded on it and the ability to restore the utility partition if the HD is replaced?

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--Aaron Greenberg

More precisely by ScottSpeaks! · 2004-01-26 13:46 · Score: 5, Informative

Here's a better link, from the FreeDOS.org site.

According to their news entries, this is new for US customers, but it's been available to Canadians for a while.

Re:More precisely by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:34 · Score: 0

Your sig is fucking retarded.
Re:More precisely by bdaehlie · 2004-01-26 14:39 · Score: 1

I like how at the top of the order customization page it still says "Dell recommends Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Professional," even though its not even a customization option on the N series.
Re:More precisely by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:51 · Score: 0

Preinstalled Linux on these machines.

That link is straight from the parent's link.

interesting.

They will eventually run MSWindows by Via_Patrino · 2004-01-26 13:46 · Score: 1

I think that most of that computers will run MSWindows by companies that already have a windows license for their current computers and plan to trow their computers away.
I've seen that: a company bougth 50 computers that came with XP and installed W2K on it

Re:They will eventually run MSWindows by RatBastard · 2004-01-26 13:57 · Score: 1

An XP license allows you to run 2000. Hell, it's the only way to get new 2000 licenses. Nice way for MS to pad their sales numbers for XP licenses.

--
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Re:They will eventually run MSWindows by zcat_NZ · 2004-01-26 14:08 · Score: 1

Except that a site licence does not cover new computers; Microsoft expects you to pay for an OEM licence, pay again to reinstall the version you actually want, AND have a site licence.

You certainly can't transfer the OEM copy of Windows from your old computer onto your new computer. Microsoft make this absolutely clear.

More details can be found at http://microsoft.com/piracy/

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455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
Re:They will eventually run MSWindows by Lord+Kano · 2004-01-26 14:48 · Score: 1

You certainly can't transfer the OEM copy of Windows from your old computer onto your new computer. Microsoft make this absolutely clear.

Transfer the Hard Drive.

LK

--
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Re:They will eventually run MSWindows by antiMStroll · 2004-01-26 16:20 · Score: 1

I think that most of that computers will run MSWindows by companies that already have a windows license for their current computers and plan to trow their computers away.
Isn't this against the EULA?
Re:They will eventually run MSWindows by zcat_NZ · 2004-01-26 16:53 · Score: 1

Have you tried that?

Even without Product Activation, XP and 2K are almost guaranteed to completely shit themselves when faced with a significant change in hardware..

Besides that, I suspect Microsoft would consider that moving a drive you own with a copy of windows you own from one computer you own onto another computer you own is somehow STILL piracy.

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455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
Re:They will eventually run MSWindows by Lord+Kano · 2004-01-26 17:04 · Score: 1

I recently upgraded my GF's computer from an K62-500 to a Duron 700. New MB, new RAM, had a few problems getting Windows to recognize the devices on the MB. But all in all, not too bad.

LK

--
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Re:They will eventually run MSWindows by zcat_NZ · 2004-01-26 19:46 · Score: 1

I've done a few; most of the time I plan to reinstall and migrate the data over anyway. Windows has a habit of accumulating spyware, old drivers, lost files, and registry cruft. Reinstalling is easier and faster than cleaning it up.

The few times when I've tried to keep the install it's usually turned out to be a major hassle. I had one machine that just wouldn't boot, not even in safe mode, due to some power-management feature being missing on the new mobo. MSKB insisted that ONLY a reinstall could fix the problem, but reinstalling wasn't an option because of some no-longer-sold software that the client had lost the disks for. So in the end we put the drive back in the old box.

--
455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
Re:They will eventually run MSWindows by Lord+Kano · 2004-01-26 20:07 · Score: 1

I've done a few; most of the time I plan to reinstall and migrate the data over anyway.

I always keep in mind that it might be necesssary to reinstall. My procedure always starts with booting into safe mode and removing all of the devices. Also keep in mind that you will need a PS2 KB, for those times when you need to key through the installation of the drivers for the onboard USB. I know you know this, but for the benefit of someone who might be reading and hasn't done this...

So in the end we put the drive back in the old box.

You're lucky that worked. In my experiences, when you try the old HD swap and things don't work, the device drivers usually end up getting b0rked and going back to the old machine doesn't work too well.

But in the end, you just gotta do what works at the time.

LK

--
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano

When Dell stops this, and... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 13:46 · Score: 5, Informative

When Dell stops this bullshit, and offers a windows delete credit across their entire product line (without invalidating warranties), then you will finally know that you aren't paying a full microsoft tax when you order a computer with Linux or some other operating system.

Re:When Dell stops this, and... by dekashizl · 2004-01-26 13:58 · Score: 1

That "bullshit" link you posted contains a really interesting story from a few months ago called "Dude, you're getting screwed" about how Dell screws over the customer wrt license agreements and has no ability or understanding of what they are even asking their customers to agree to. Take 5 minutes and read it.
Re:When Dell stops this, and... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:56 · Score: 0

Why do you think he linked to it?
Re:When Dell stops this, and... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 17:12 · Score: 0

Is your wise-ass comment necessary?
Re:When Dell stops this, and... by ph43thon · 2004-01-26 18:32 · Score: 1

This is by far one of the dumbest links I've ever read. I get that it says "Press any key on the keyboard to indicate that you have read all of the software licenses and agree to their terms." But, more than likely, it's just a poorly worded prompt. In my opinion, the page is meant to be a reminder to read your license agreements. How is it legally binding? How do they prove that you pressed a key? How do they know you read about the license before opening the wrapper on the software? I feel like this is the kind of thing that wouldn't hold up in court.. BUT nobody cares so it hasn't been tested. Is he worried that the license will say that he forfeits all of his private assets? AND THEN HE IS SCReweD!!

This guy was so clueless he didn't even know to set boot from cd in the BIOS before trying to boot from cd.. so I assume Windows didn't just magically start booting when it "sensed" he was trying to install Linux. Yes, this fellow is beset on all sides by evil forces.

choose your battles..

PS I do agree with the need for Dell to let you opt out of Microsoft-ware
Re:When Dell stops this, and... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 01:24 · Score: 0

I find his closing comments highly amusing:

I'm just bewildered that Dell corporate policy is that users need to lie to use their new laptops, and to agree to legal agreements that it's completely impossible to have read. This is the next level above "click-through" licenses. Now, they figure no one reads the EULAs anyway, so why bother even providing a copy?

Anyway, he shouldn't be worried. As asinine as the courts are, they're not going to rule you're bound by licenses you can't read before agreeing to them.

Uh by SinaSa · 2004-01-26 13:47 · Score: 4, Insightful

When I first read this article, I thought to myself "What use is FreeDOS to a current business user? Is this a flashback to 10 years ago, when DOS was still useful?"

Then it occured to me that obviously Dell is still just as scared of Microsoft as it was two years ago when they attempted to ship Linux. Microsoft doesn't care if Dell ships with an OS that isn't a threat really. They just don't want Linux in the mainstream.

Shame on you Dell!

--
--
The last digit of pi is four.

Re:Uh by Negative+Response · 2004-01-26 14:02 · Score: 1

Actually I don't have a problem with Dell not shipping with Linux installed... For one thing, which distro would it be? And think that even when we (a research lab) purchased their computers with Windows, first thing we do is wipe it out and do a clean, Dell stuff free reinstall anyway, since their pre-installed OS is always full of junk, and the partitioning did never really suit out needs.
As long as I can buy a PC without microsoft crap on it, and without paying microsoft anything (I doubt it), it's good enough for me.
Re:Uh by MP3Chuck · 2004-01-26 14:19 · Score: 1

Yea, but who's gonna buy it for FreeDOS? I have a feeling that anyone who buys one of these systems would do so to put whatever OS they want on it( *nix or whatever). IMO, Dell included FreeDOS so that it will at least boot on its own. :)

--
Who doesn't like free music?
Re:Uh by KingJoshi · 2004-01-26 14:22 · Score: 1

Dell also ships with Red Hat Enterprise Linux. But I don't know if it's installed though, but comes with the CD and you can purchase a one year or 3 year subscription. I don't know if people familiar with linux would want it to be installed versus having control over what to put on the system. This is for their Precision line. When they have a linux system pre-installed for the home user, that'll be something big. Until then, this a small step in the positive direction until Linux is ready for the home desktop user.

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In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
Re:Uh by StarCat76 · 2004-01-26 15:38 · Score: 1

The good thing about this is that it lets anyone who wanted OEM hardware, with support, for a reasonable price, that oppurtunity. Anyone who wants will just format the drive and put Linux on there.
Re:Uh by LinuxHam · 2004-01-26 15:38 · Score: 1

I wouldn't necessarily say "Shame on Dell" unless they completely gave up. They, like IBM, realize that Linux helps them move hardware, and they are making efforts to cover more corners of the market -- including the "no pre-installed OS" market.

I say kudos for continuing to slink around and not piss off the hand that feeds them 90% of their revenue, all while recognizing that not everyone wants to run Windows. They know that most everyone who wants to buy a PC just to run Linux probably knows they can get it for free or in the back of a book on the clearance table at Barnes & Noble. I applaud their flexibility and perseverence to keep providing cheap, commodity, Microsoft-free hardware for us. They could easily give up that fight, but choose not to.

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Intelligent Life on Earth
Re:Uh by DanThe1Man · 2004-01-26 15:48 · Score: 1

I think, as another guy commented somewhere else, that they just don't want to offer the support that Linux needs. FreeDos is easy to support if the off-chance that the end-user dosn't whip the HD and install something else. If/when they do that Dell doesn't have to support it.
Re:Uh by tepples · 2004-01-26 17:19 · Score: 1

Dell included FreeDOS so that it will at least boot on its own. :)

Dell ships the hard drive blank; if the purchaser wants to use FreeDOS, she has to install it herself. At that rate, why not just bundle the Knoppix CD?
Re:Uh by Trepalium · 2004-01-26 18:21 · Score: 1

No, they're shipping FreeDOS on the systems to abide by the licensing rules Microsoft has set out against shipping 'naked PCs'. Microsoft believes that the only reason someone would order a PC without operating system is they intend on putting a pirated version of Windows on it, so if you agree to never ship a machine without an OS, they give you discounts. This is just a [clever] way to continue shipping machines without an OS, but still say it comes with one.

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I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
Re:Uh by Brandybuck · 2004-01-26 18:23 · Score: 1

What you got are hundreds of businesses with Microsoft site licenses that don't need Dells pre-installed with Windows licenses. Simple as that. My company uses Windows 2000 Pro, but the Dells we get come with Windows XP Home. The first thing IT does is to wipe the harddrives upon receipt.

These businesses aren't going to be running Linux, and Dell knows it.

--
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Re:Uh by Fjord · 2004-01-27 03:04 · Score: 1

Perhaps it is also the effect of SCO's ranting about owning linux. This way, Dell is indemnified against any SCO claims.

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-no broken link
Re:Uh by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 03:39 · Score: 0

Not only are they selling PC's with FreeDOS as an option, they are offering Red Hat as well. On Dell's small business website, they offer PC's with RHEL already installed!

Dell's website.

Where's the beef? by llamaluvr · 2004-01-26 13:48 · Score: 1

Was anybody else totally unable to find the reference to FreeDOS from the supplied Dell link? Or am I just dumb?

I have no clue which computer is a "N-series"- all I see are dimensions, precisions, optiplexes, and the like.

And, for some reason, whenever I clicked on a PC's "Customize it" button, it just refeshed the page. Happened on Moz 1.5 and IE 6.

Yeah, I believe it, but it'd be cool to see it, too :-/ .

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Insightful: 76, Off-Topic: 379, Flamebait: 24, Funny: 152, Interesting: 201, Underrated: 55, Troll: 9, Total: 896

Re:Where's the beef? by SamboMambo · 2004-01-26 13:52 · Score: 1

ye, i couldnt find it either. whats with that!?

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Gees, if you think my signature is so bad you give me one!
Re:Where's the beef? by ilikecake · 2004-01-26 13:56 · Score: 1

Same here. I'm glad it's not just me. I searched the Dell site for FreeDos and got eleven links to systems you couldn't get FreeDos on.

However, I did find that RedHat was available on the Precisions. Partial credit I suppose.
Re:Where's the beef? by celery+stalk · 2004-01-26 14:10 · Score: 1

Neither was I, but then I found the page. N-Series

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aaaand...whee!
Re:Where's the beef? by bhtooefr · 2004-01-26 14:15 · Score: 1

Same here on Opera 7.23 Linux x86.

Also, it seems like N Series is a type of customer, as I get the same page with any letter or number instead of n.
Re:Where's the beef? by Serveert · 2004-01-26 14:31 · Score: 1

here's your link: http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/compare.a spx/desktops_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd

--
2 years and no mod points. Join reddit. Because openness is good.
Re:Where's the beef? by MrSnivvel · 2004-01-26 14:33 · Score: 1

Mod Parent Up.

Required to have an OS by ayeco · 2004-01-26 13:51 · Score: 2, Informative

They are required to provide an OS with the computer systems they sell. This is an OS, and saves the end user a buck or two. This is great.

Re:Required to have an OS by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:18 · Score: 1, Interesting

"They are required" sounds strangely passive.

Who is doing the requiring ?

Surely not MS, the company that was enjoined from making such requirements on OEMs ? Couldn't be, right ?
Re:Required to have an OS by /dev/trash · 2004-01-26 16:56 · Score: 1

Who reauires them to provide an OS?

Are they doing this for the pirateers out there? by hoasis69 · 2004-01-26 13:51 · Score: 4, Interesting

Could be a brilliant Dell ploy to sell more systems to pirateers of Windows OS's since they'll save a bit with a free OS.

perhaps a trend? by changelingyahoo.com · 2004-01-26 13:52 · Score: 1

In fact they've also switched from Windows NT to Linux on the Server Assitant CD's they distribute with new servers in order to perform (mostly) unattended OS installs.

--
My Company

All DOS apps will be belonging to... VisualBasic! by Saeed+al-Sahaf · 2004-01-26 13:52 · Score: 1

Dell *is not* distancing themselves from MS, just doing what all OEMs should, offing a wide variety of solutions. And really, FreeDOS? How is this huge ore even measurable? Are big companies still buying DOS machines? Not for long, because these same companies will soon migrate their old DOS apps to... VisualBasic (joke, sort of...)!

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"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck

FreeDOS. by Oliver+Defacszio · 2004-01-26 13:53 · Score: 2, Funny

FreeDOS! Great! Now I can run Telix 3.15 on my new 7 Flabblehertz PC!

Back in the real world, FreeDOS is about as useful as a deep-freeze in the Arctic circle. Are people supposed to learn to install an OS on new computers? What is this, 1987?

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Inventor of the term 'pardon my French'.

Re:FreeDOS. by cscx · 2004-01-26 14:08 · Score: 1, Offtopic

Back in the real world, FreeDOS is about as useful as a deep-freeze in the Arctic circle.

Actually DOS is still widely used... mainly on POS systems; take a closer look at those computerized cash registers next time you waltz into Kroger.
Re:FreeDOS. by iminplaya · 2004-01-26 14:30 · Score: 1

"Back in the real world, FreeDOS is about as useful as a deep-freeze in the Arctic circle."

If it wasn't for that deep freeze, New York and L.A. Might be under water.

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What?
Re:FreeDOS. by WaKall · 2004-01-26 14:37 · Score: 1

Is that Point-of-Sale, or Piece-of-....
Re:FreeDOS. by tommck · 2004-01-27 07:23 · Score: 1

How cool was Telix!!? Thanks for reminding me of that great product. I was so psyched when I first started using that... 3.15 was the best version too.. God I feel old!

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---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
Re:FreeDOS. by cant_get_a_good_nick · 2004-01-27 07:56 · Score: 1

I think you are misunderstanding why Dell is putting this on the machine. The point of FreeDOS is to be the most useless OS they can put on.

Dell can't ship a bare bones machine for MS site licensed, or Linux/BSD/Plan 9/whatever users. They need to put an OS on the machine, to avoid the MS tax. I love the fact that MS essentially says "if you don't have an OS on it, you MUST be pirating MS Windows, like what else would you put there?" yet then says they don't have a monopoly. Anyway, they have to put something on, but does not want to incurr support costs on this OS, so they make it the simplest OS that will actually boot, the one least likely for people to find useful (though it does have its uses) and most likely just to be a placefiller until someone wipes it clean. If they put something useful on it, say FreeBSD or Linux, they'd incurr support costs, have to deal with driver issues, whatever. They might even be violating some licensing issue with MS, we don't know. By including FreeDOS they're essentially saying "I'm wiping my hands of the OS issue as cleanly as my agreement with MS will allow".

Avoids double dipping by etymxris · 2004-01-26 13:54 · Score: 5, Insightful

I believe the point has been mentioned before in similar threads, but it bears repeating here.

Many businesses already have licenses for all the software that they run--either a seat for every user or a site-wide license. For such businesses, a PC that comes with Windows is just wasted money. It would make sense to try to wrestle a discount from Microsoft when such a situation occurs, but monopolies are not often sympathetic to such things.

Re:Avoids double dipping by captain_craptacular · 2004-01-26 13:57 · Score: 3, Insightful

Actually most MS site liscences state that you MUST buy a copy of windows with each new PC. The Windows site liscence just covers upgrades...

off topic, but the 2 minute rule sucks.

--
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security
Re:Avoids double dipping by etymxris · 2004-01-26 14:00 · Score: 3, Funny

The Windows site license just covers upgrades...

No problem, these customers will just be upgrading from DOS :)

What it really needs.... by _Sexy_Pants_ · 2004-01-26 13:56 · Score: 1

is a souped up "Edit". Forget IDEs, it's all about multiple CMD Windows

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Look it's a joke about my sig IN MY SIG! LOL!

Re:What it really needs.... by bersl2 · 2004-01-26 14:34 · Score: 1

souped up "Edit"

It's called vim...
You'll want to go here.
Re:What it really needs.... by _Sexy_Pants_ · 2004-01-26 15:53 · Score: 1

ah but if you're using FreeDOS, I'm sure there's a bit of nostaligia involved and THAT You won't find in VIM

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Look it's a joke about my sig IN MY SIG! LOL!

Distancing Itself? by thparker · 2004-01-26 13:56 · Score: 1

I fail to see how adding some obscure OS option on one line of PCs is "distancing itself" when the most prominent boldface headline on its Browse Products page is Dell recommends Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP.

WinModem by bstadil · 2004-01-26 13:57 · Score: 1

Yes but what can you honestly do with FreeDOS?

Most likely doesn't even support the WinModem this POS box more than likely comes equiped with. ;-)

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Help fight continental drift.

Re:WinModem by CowboyNick · 2004-01-26 14:14 · Score: 1

Why would a point of sale computer need a winmodem?

Oh, wait......

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-CowboyNick
Re:WinModem by RallyDriver · 2004-01-26 14:31 · Score: 1

If you look at the site, the $319 model (2.4GHz Celeron) has no modem - winmodems start at $20 extra.

I'd say these are definitely aimed at the Windows pirate and Linux hacker markets; the (correct, not main aritle) link goes to an entry page which explicitly states that volume Windows licenses aren't valid, and promotes availability of preinstalled Linux as an option on some models.

Local PC stores (around here in Dell country anyway - Austin TX) offer budget AMD Athlon boxes at $299+tax without Windows, and this looks like the nearest equivalent.

For non-tech business users, Dell has another iteration of those itty bitty desktops at around $500 a shot with a less tight spec (more RAM) and an XP Pro OEM license - the difference in cost is not material to a business, less than the hassle of installing the OS and RAM yourself.

FWIW, Dell pays Microsoft around $29 a box for OEM licenses, not the $189 store price :-)
Re:WinModem by bstadil · 2004-01-26 14:45 · Score: 1

winmodems start at $20 extra. I'd say these are definitely aimed at the Windows pirate and Linux hacker markets
Good point, I think your are right on the Linux portion and that is encouraging. For Win Pirates I doubt it, maybe people have old Windows versions that they feel they can transfer or site licenses for business that are going to install a custom version anyway.
I didn't visit the site nor RTFA, just tried to be amusing. ;-)

--
Help fight continental drift.

Gotta love that paragraph by RAMMS+EIN · 2004-01-26 13:58 · Score: 1

``DellTM DimensionTM 2400 n series1 desktops offer affordable, everyday small business computing power. Extra economical because they come without a Microsoft(R) operating system; a copy of FreeDOSTM open-source operating system is included in the box, ready to install.''

'nuff said.

--
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.

Another good step by alchemist0405 · 2004-01-26 13:58 · Score: 1

I saw Fry's Electronics doing something similar with ThizOS (I believe it was called). I didn't really know a whole lot about ThizOS, and I don't really know a lot about FreeDOS, but as long as I am not paying the Microsoft tax I say more power to them!

Consequently, you might want to take note that Fry's has since then begun taking their Linux desktops out of the stores. (According to a computer dept. manager) They claim that the mechines were too hard to support. I hope Dell isn't forced down that road.

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Cameron King

why FreeDos! by Coneasfast · 2004-01-26 13:59 · Score: 1

the whole reason why they are shipping FreeDOS instead of something like linux is because for Dell, customer support would be a nightmare, with FreeDOS, they don't need to worry about customer support as most people will just install windows anyways.

this is what i have read somewhere(/.?), a while back.

--
Marge, get me your address book, 4 beers, and my conversation hat.

Perhaps this is good... by xoran99 · 2004-01-26 14:00 · Score: 1

One can be certain that the newest round of Windows trojans would not affect this system... :P If I were not confident in my ability to assemble a machine myself, I would gladly buy this system. By now we know what to do with unwanted CDs *coughAOLcough*, and choice, any way it comes, is a Good Thing. Besides, I can get Windows through my university for very cheap :P

--

Karma: Bad (mostly due to all those "In Soviet Russia" jokes)

Re:Perhaps this is good... by caino59 · 2004-01-26 14:44 · Score: 1

Besides, I can get Windows through my university for very cheap :P

Yah, it's amazing what you'll find on campus network shares :oP

Proof by Popageorgio · 2004-01-26 14:00 · Score: 1

More proof that Dell is the smartest PC maker in the market. They just found a way to shave even more off their costs AND make the computer safer.

Sweet by Unregistered · 2004-01-26 14:01 · Score: 1

1. Buy computer with FreeDOS
2. Install warez windows xp
3. Profit!!

That's the whole point of this promotion. So people can use their wared copies of windows. I doubt it will help linux much.

Off topic? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:01 · Score: 2, Funny

Burning old women is never off topic. It's a necessary part of God's plan. Circle of life and stuff.

me too by polished+look+2 · 2004-01-26 14:03 · Score: 1

oh well.

Because they're really shipping it with no OS. by AzrealAO · 2004-01-26 14:04 · Score: 5, Informative

It's intended for Businesses who have a volume licence agreement for x number of Windows Installs. This let's them buy new workstations without having to pay for a Windows Licence they already have.

Re:Because they're really shipping it with no OS. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:00 · Score: 0

There are only two ways to get a legal base OS license from MSFT - buy it at retail or get it from an OEM. MSFT business agreements, such as an Enterprise or Select Agreement, only give upgrade rights on top of an OEM or retail license. Any business that buys one of these products and loads a MSFT OS based solely on an EA or SA needs to doublecheck their licensing terms.
Re:Because they're really shipping it with no OS. by hertzsae · 2004-01-26 16:59 · Score: 1

I was under the impression that the volume license lets you upgrade to the current version, but you still have to have a version of windows installed and licensed on the pc in the first place. This is why corporations have to buy pc's with windows on them, to get the initial license. The site license then lets them upgrade to whatever they want.
Re:Because they're really shipping it with no OS. by FatRichard · 2004-01-26 17:39 · Score: 1

Of course, your business has to be comfortable with supporting the mass outsourcing of jobs to India.

As a matter of personal desire to remain employed in the US, I will no longer recommend Dell systems.

(Oh, and I won't purchase them either. Let your $$$ vote.)

You guys that question the OS keep forgetting by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:04 · Score: 1, Informative

The article says it's being offered to BUSINESS customers... these guys probably allready own a crapload of licenses and if they want to they have a staff that can nuke the box and install Linux.

Business also implies "professionals" though that isnt allways true.

Re:You guys that question the OS keep forgetting by taped2thedesk · 2004-01-26 14:50 · Score: 3, Insightful

these guys probably allready own a crapload of licenses
Yeah, I'd bet that a lot of companies want to purchase all of their licenses through their MS licensing program - I believe my company specifically requires that new computers not ship with Office so that they can use a site-license which "simplifies license management and reduces TCO" or something like that. If they site-license Windows, they buy a (cheap?) license and get upgrades for the life of the license (I think... I stopped keeping up with the MS licenses a while ago)
The only reason FreeDOS is on there is because they can't ship hardware without an OS.

the reason is by UID500 · 2004-01-26 14:05 · Score: 1

because you still have companies running DOS apps only. they can't upgrade to newer windows machines because the apps wont work but a 400$ box that runs dos is a good upgrade.

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FreeBSD Addicts

AMD Next? by Party_Pack · 2004-01-26 14:06 · Score: 2, Interesting

Wow Dell trying to relax their ties with Microsoft, who knows we may see a Dell system with AMD hardware one day ;-)

Re:AMD Next? by Triumph+The+Insult+C · 2004-01-26 14:13 · Score: 1

i don't have any links handy, but dell has/is investing pretty heavily in a server appliance product that is amd based. the company manufacturing it is also in tx iirc

--
vodka, straight up, thank you!
Re:AMD Next? by Party_Pack · 2004-01-26 14:25 · Score: 1

I work and purchase computers for a large company that has a standing offer with Dell. Every couple of years Dell give us a presentation on how good they are and where their product line is going. I've asked about the inclusion of AMD based workstations in their product line and always been given the "Intel is technically superior", (which means 'we have a deal with them'). Mind you this is from a company that gave us a long winded presentation on the merits of RDRAM and why we must have it and why all other RAM types will die a quick death...

Link? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:07 · Score: 0

I don't see where the Dell site says anything about purchasing the comp with just FreeDOS. Can someone provide a link?

What's it gonna take to get a Knoppix CD included? by Dr_Marvin_Monroe · 2004-01-26 14:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

I mean the choice is simple... This one CD has almost everything an average $400.00 computer purchaser would want. The 1 disk distro. has it all ready in "start from scratch" wrapper.

Nothing for grandma to get messed up with either. Tech support is dead simple.."hello, Mrs. Smigh? Does the computer boot from the CD?...you're OK"

This wouldn't even require formatting the drive....

FreeDOS is a cop-out...... If it's a "cost" issue on Dell's part...I could burn CD's at my house! I'm in for a stack a week.

Let's put together a special Dell CD distro. and ask Dell to distribute it with their OS-less systems. It could show real "good faith" towards a heartless company. It could also suck them into the SCO fun!

pool on when Darl McBride claims FreeDOS IP... by vnv · 2004-01-26 14:07 · Score: 5, Funny

I would expect Darl will be on the scene shortly, perhaps within a week, claiming that FreeDOS is also owned by SCO.

I will enter my official guess as February 2, "Groundhog Day". If Darl appears and claims more IP, then six more weeks of IP winter will be upon us.

Good Fucking Lord by Saeed+al-Sahaf · 2004-01-26 14:08 · Score: 0, Troll

How about not making yourself look like an ASS for using the non-word "boxen"? I'll bet you use "virii" too, and start more than half your posts with "Umm...".

--
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck

Re:Good Fucking Lord by cbreaker · 2004-01-26 14:16 · Score: 1

hehehe

--
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
Re:Good Fucking Lord by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:48 · Score: 0

I say boxii and viren, dammit.
Re:Good Fucking Lord by Saeed+al-Sahaf · 2004-01-26 14:55 · Score: 2

I say boxii and viren, dammit.
Yes, but are you FREE enough to say with your NAME? *NOT* as an AC?

--
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Re:Good Fucking Lord by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:17 · Score: 0

What makes you any less of an AC than me?
Re:Good Fucking Lord by kyrre · 2004-01-26 22:52 · Score: 1

You sir, are my hero. Thanks.

FreeWindows? by Atario · 2004-01-26 14:08 · Score: 1

From the FreeDOS FAQ:

The answer to that question was: ourselves! We started up a project to create a free version of DOS, with source code available to all. The result was the FreeDOS Project.

What if someone did this to Windows? An open source project that emulates Windows -- except better (i.e., without the bugs, instabilities, vulnerabilities, etc...and, for that matter, IE without the bugs, etc.)?

Hmmmm...

--
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt

Re:FreeWindows? by bhtooefr · 2004-01-26 14:22 · Score: 5, Informative

ReactOS (formerly FreeWin95, a project to create a Windows 95 clone) is a project to create a Windows 2000 clone. It's at version 0.2 (just a couple of days ago, and I thought they hadn't made it to 0.1.6 yet). It'll have Wine in there to actually get decent Win32 support. BTW, the rosapps all run great on Win2K/XP, but they sucked ass on 0.1.1 when I tried it, which is good, seeing that they're coding against Win2K, and not ROS.
Re:FreeWindows? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 23:12 · Score: 0

I can't decide how i feel about ReactOS.

On one hand, it has the potential to bury microsoft. Microsoft will be there to fund every SCO bump in the road the Free Software Movement encounters. As our enemies, crushing them is important.

but on the other hand, maybe it could hurt GNU in the long run. After all, what is there on the windows side for us but more proprietary trash? Would new people still feel the need for Free Software once they are free of windows?
Re:FreeWindows? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 23:55 · Score: 0

FreeWin95, a project to create a Windows 95 clone

I've done something similar with FreeFork(TM), which is a program that emulates repeatedly stabbing yourself in the eye with a fork.
Re:FreeWindows? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 07:09 · Score: 0

I see few differences between Unix and Windows in terms of free-vs-proprietary. In the early 80's (and going into the late 80's), Unix was largely proprietary-only, much like Windows is now. IMHO the only reason we have any substantial amount of free Unix code (let alone an entire free Unix OS) is because of Richard Stallman.
I've always been secretly disappointed that RMS didn't decide to go after the PC instead of the big iron. The PCs had that democratic political feel to them, which would have been a good match for the FSF. Maybe he didn't think PCs would amount to anything, I don't know.
The world would be a very different place right now if RMS had settled on making a copy of the Macintosh instead of Unix (and would have been a lot more successful in bringing to the people). The only sticking point is what acronym it would have had. I'd vote for "ANA" (ANA's Not Apple) where "ana" (apparently) means "a collection of the memorable sayings of a person"?.
Anyway, it's not too late, I think. ReactOS could make things much freer.

FreeDOS is pointless by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:08 · Score: 0

Last time I used FreeDOS I found it incompatible with any DOS progam that did more than edit a text file. Who wants to bet Dell will be getting tech calls when users try to flash their BIOS under FreeDOS and kill their motherboards? Really Dell, FreeDOS? A completely wasted chance to show off something like Knoppix or Fedora, heck even BSD would be better than FreeDOS!

Re:FreeDOS is pointless by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:13 · Score: 0

FreeDos now comes on some of the motherboard CDs so you can make a disk to flash the bios. I've used it for that.

I also use it to run Word Perfect, including the graphical print preview.

Admittedly, Knoppix would be a better choice. But don't think that FreeDos is all that bad.

not a good deal--you can still do better by sootman · 2004-01-26 14:09 · Score: 1

$399 at dell.com/tv gets you a similar box PLUS a 17" CRT PLUS speakers PLUS whatever else they have that day on special--the system always comes with a upgrade or two, like more RAM, a bigger HDD, better optical drives, etc. This week you get an upgrade to a CD-RW. Even if you don't need all those things (esp. the CRT & speakers) you could always sell them, easily getting your $80 back.

Unless you a) live in the boonies, can't sell the extras, and need every penny or b) hate MS so much you're willing to screw yourself not to be contaminated by them, you're better off getting a system from the /tv site.

--
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.

Re:not a good deal--you can still do better by way2trivial · 2004-01-26 14:17 · Score: 1

399, after a $100 rebate is NOT THE SAME as 399

--
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Re:not a good deal--you can still do better by sootman · 2004-01-26 14:17 · Score: 1

I forgot to mention, $399 = $499 with a $100 mail-in rebate. Still, a pretty good deal. When that $399 system came out, it had 256 MB RAM and a freakin' DVD+RW. (I shoulda bought one just for the parts.)

They also have a system for $499 ($599-$100) that's a P4 with the similar special do-dads each week. A couple times they've had a free upgrade to a 15" LCD. Upgrading to a digital 18" LCD was only $260 more. OTOH, I'd rather have a good Athlon/Duron system from compaq.com/tv. They currently have a Presario + 15" analog LCD for $447. Descisions, descisions. :-)

--
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Re:not a good deal--you can still do better by sootman · 2004-01-26 14:57 · Score: 1

True, but it's close enough for me. The only difference is $6.50 tax, a $0.37-cent stamp, and a little time.

--
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.

Re:Are they doing this for the pirateers out there by xot · 2004-01-26 14:09 · Score: 1

I agree. Its just a ploy to sell more pc's at a cheaper rate and vendors can install their own pirated copies.Its fine by me as long as the actual hardware is cheaper.

--
Lord of the Binges.

Re:Why not Linux - DOS choices by Tandoori+Haggis · 2004-01-26 14:09 · Score: 1

MS DOS had another competitor in IBM PC DOS. I thought it was quite smart by comparison.

http://www-306.ibm.com/software/os/dos/

--
My hyperlinks aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

RH Linux ES3.0 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:11 · Score: 0

According to Dell's online order forms: RH ES 3 WS seems to be the default OS, with no "No OS" option available on the Precision Workstation line. Price comparison with Windows2k/XP system of same specs: n-series is $200 less. No mention of FreeDOS is made. On Optiplex systems it does not yet seem to have a feature to order anything but windows.

Not even close by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:11 · Score: 2, Interesting

Try Walmart getting into the picture.

The blood is about to flow and Dell knows it. They are going to be slashing to the bone to prevent losing what could turn out to be major market share on the low end in the long run.

Eliminating the microsoft tax is one way of slashing, especially since it isn't a trivial tax. Better to test Microsoft now so they can prepare for the oncoming war, than to wait and lose market share.

Microsoft may dominate the market currently, but Dell sees the writing on the wall. It will only take one large distributor who doesn't have to pay the Microsoft tax to have a huge price advantage, and who will turn the market upside down.

This is simply Dell battening down the hatches before the storm.

Also across their servers - 400SC :) by cblguy · 2004-01-26 14:12 · Score: 1

I bought a Poweredge 400SC with no OS at all. P2.8GHz HT w/ 800MHz FSB (i875 chipset), CD, 40GB, 128MB, gigabit ethernet, sound, keyboard, mouse - a quality box for $434 shipped (incl tax) after rebate.

Stuck 1G PC3200 ram in there, new AGP 8x vid card, and it runs just great. I normally build my own boxen, but didn't feel like hassling with it this time, and it really works well for me.

You can't do much by roystgnr · 2004-01-26 14:12 · Score: 1

Yes but what can you honestly do with FreeDOS?

Nothing, and that's the point. If Dell shipped Linux CDs, people might actually try to use them, and Dell would have to respond to tech support requests when people tried something that didn't work or that they couldn't figure out how to do. With FreeDOS people won't expect anything to work, and so won't cost Dell phone centers any money.

huh? by agwis · 2004-01-26 14:13 · Score: 1

Can you not buy a dell computer in the US without MS on it? I wasn't clear on whether this applied to desktop computers and/or servers but I recently purchased a dell poweredge 1750 and I had several options. I could choose Windows, Linux (Red Hat), or no operating system at all. Of course I chose the latter and installed good ole debian but that's besides the point.

Either way, I hope this is the start of a popular trend. In my case, several potential vendors I looked at first lost out because they only sold servers with Windows preinstalled.

-Pat

Desktop sales by nikkipolya · 2004-01-26 14:14 · Score: 1

When the desktop sales is on the decline and laptop sales in on the rise, how come there are no laptops with FreeDOS option at Dell.

I would love to buy an n-series laptop. More so if it means I dont have to pay the Micro$oft Tax.

Re:Desktop sales by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:49 · Score: 0

I would love to buy an n-series laptop. More so if it means I dont have to pay the Micro$oft Tax.

Same here. I'd buy one just for the sake of playing with it if it were cheap enough and didn't require me to buy the Redmond OS.

This is news? by Parsa · 2004-01-26 14:15 · Score: 1

They have been doing this for a long time now. They started it at least over a year ago.

J

--
Abiit, excessit, evasit, erupit.

What is a Dell n Series System? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:16 · Score: 0

From Dell.com:

An n Series system has the exact same hardware, regulatory certifications and approvals and BIOS as the corresponding standard system. In general, the n Series will have the same peripherals as the standard system. However, the n Series system does not have a Microsoft(R) Windows(R) operating system installed. Dell is making n Series available to customers with needs for other operating systems such as LinuxTM

Price difference by ScottSpeaks! · 2004-01-26 14:16 · Score: 4, Informative

Dell's offering a $200 rebate on the comes-with-Windows model at the moment, but if you set that aside, roughtly equivalent sample configurations are priced as follows:

Dell Dimension 2400N: 2.4GHz Celeron, 256MB RAM, 80GB HD, CD-ROM, no monitor, FreeDOS: $369
Dell Dimension 2400: 2.4GHz Celeron, 256MB RAM, 80GB HD, CD-ROM, no monitor, Windows XP: $599

The arithmetic is left as an exercise for the reader.

Re:Price difference by DietFluffy · 2004-01-26 16:11 · Score: 3, Insightful

Why should that $200 rebate be set aside in your comparison? Anyone who frequents the bargains websites knows that Dell always has these types of promotions for their windows boxes.

If you take into consideration the rebate, and the fact that dell charges tax on the 2400N (because it can only be purchased at dell business versus dell home for the 2400), you are actually paying the exact same price for the 2 configurations.

Don't be mistaken, you are still paying the Microsoft tax.
Re:Price difference by Caseyscrib · 2004-01-26 16:14 · Score: 1

The arithmetic is left as an exercise for the reader.

$340! Wow what savings!

:p
Re:Price difference by claygate · 2004-01-26 18:21 · Score: 4, Insightful

He knows that. That is why if you subtract $200 rebate from $599 you get $399. With the 2400N costing $369 and the Microsoft Dell costing $399, the Microsoft tax is $399 - $369 = $30. This is how I read it.

$319 PC? by rsmith-mac · 2004-01-26 14:18 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I know this is slightly off-topic, but am I the only one nervous about Dell selling a $319 machine? OS aside, a machine that cheap can't be too well built, which results in a lot of frustrated users, no matter the OS.

Re:$319 PC? by wozster · 2004-01-26 14:36 · Score: 1, Offtopic

I disagree; the 400SC is a great PC and can frequently be had for $350 or less

Link

Windows 3.1 by cbreaker · 2004-01-26 14:18 · Score: 1

You could run Windows 3.1 on it probably...

I've heard that MS Licenses are backward compatible or something, so you could go out and buy a copy of Windows XP, and then use that license for Windows 3.1.

Wait..

--
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -

Re:All DOS apps will be belonging to... VisualBasi by d3faultus3r · 2004-01-26 14:19 · Score: 1

I'm betting FreeDOS will just be used to avoid selling hardware without an OS, and then users will install Linux or a version of Windows they already have on the pc.

--
read my blog
musings on politics and technol

Now how about... by siskbc · 2004-01-26 14:20 · Score: 1

...laptops? Would be really useful for those of us who want linux on those, or who have Windows site licenses for personal machines and would rather not pay twice.

--

-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat

Re:Now how about... by blixel · 2004-01-26 14:33 · Score: 4, Informative

...laptops?

Yeah that's what I'd like to see. I e-mailed Dell two months ago about getting a laptop without Windows XP on it and this is what they said: (in short they said tough luck)

> Problem Description:
>
------
I tried to purchase the Inspiron 5100 Notebook online but I noticed when I selected the option to customize that I was not able to remove Windows XP from the selection. As a long time "alternative operating system user", I have no desire to pay for an Operating System that I have no intention on using.
-------

Dear Sir,

Thank you for choosing Dell Online Customer Care.

I apologize for any inconvenience this matter may have caused.

Unfortunately, we are unable to assist you with your request.

Online Sales Center at 1-800-915-3355 ext 62032 or via e-mail
at:

DHS_On-Line_Order@Dell.com
Re:Now how about... by cixelsyd · 2004-01-26 15:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

Same message here, totally bullshit canned reply. I tried calling them at that number, and hung up after about an hour... Best idea: just return the operating system =P

--
Take a dollar, divide it by 100, take two and call me in the morning.
Re:Now how about... by blixel · 2004-01-26 15:09 · Score: 1

Best idea: just return the operating system

I've heard that is possible, but I don't know what is involved, how long it would take, or if you would ever get your money back in the end. I'd much rather buy a laptop without the OS to begin with.
Re:Now how about... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 01:41 · Score: 0

You need to try harder. It can be done:

windows refund for a dell story

Important link by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:20 · Score: 0

This is good because it is a link that enables people to try other OS. No one would seriously expect to get much done on a DOS machine and the sales person would presumably tell them so. The DOS you get is just a vital step to bootstrapping a real OS.
Without it OEMs could not sell totally 'bare' machines because the average user would be stuck.
If this DOS is packaged with basic network config tools it at least allows a user to download and install a Linux (or whatever) distro.

They Do? Where? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:21 · Score: 0

I went to that URL, and I couldn't find any machines with FreeDOS on the list. Everything was the standard run of the mill overpriced Optiplexes with Windows XP. Where's the real deal?

and yet.. by IronBlade · 2004-01-26 14:23 · Score: 1

... there's a fairly prominent
Dell recommends Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Professional
on the site....

--
Important info:
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
http://dieoff.org/synopsis.htm
http://www.peakoil.net

Agreed. by eigerface · 2004-01-26 14:27 · Score: 1

FreeDOS does not support USB, for one. Any current, major Linux distribution does.

I don't care. A comparison of the cost of similar Dell PC's with and without Windows XP Home Edition is the selling point here.

People are still going to buy Windows PC's by DraconPern · 2004-01-26 14:28 · Score: 1

I bought a workstation from Dell just recently with WinXP for work. It turns out (at least in the small business section) that if you choose a computer with WinXP, a discount can be applied(loyal customer) which resulted in a computer that was cheaper and better then one without an OS. I got the computer and promptly wiped and installed Linux, but at least I still have the WinXP license if I ever needed it.

If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by thedbp · 2004-01-26 14:28 · Score: 5, Interesting

Plutonium 1000
- Harddrive Upgrade to 60GB
- Internal Optical Combo CDRW/DVD
- Memory 512MB
- Model 17" LCD
- Processor Upg. to 2.66 Ghz P4m
- Software ProductivityPak,GamePak,SolitaireAce
- Wireless None
$1,938

iMac 17"
512MB DDR333 - 2 DIMMs
80GB Ultra ATA drive
Keyboard/Mac OS X - U.S. English
17-inch flat panel LCD
1.25GHz PowerPC G4
4x SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
Apple Keyboard
Apple Mouse
Apple Pro Speakers
$1,899.00

iMac is cheaper, has a dedicated graphics card, a professionally supported UNIX OS, a better processor for any sort of media, better built-in software, a 4x DVD-R, and 20GB more HD space, not to mention the better design and compatibility with all sorts of other devices. Plus options for internal bluetooth, etc.

And people say Macs are expensive?

Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:46 · Score: 0

They say macs are expensive, because they are. You are comparing a high priced system from one company that happens to charge too much. At least if you want the P4 system you can get it cheaper somewhere else.
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by DanThe1Man · 2004-01-26 15:39 · Score: 0, Flamebait

That system seems to be only $999 when I look at it. Maybe they saw a Apple cookie on your hard drive and jacked up the price since you were used to paying it.
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by Juanvaldes · 2004-01-26 15:50 · Score: 1

That is the base model with only a 30gig HD and no LCD or CD/DVD drive.
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by Coryoth · 2004-01-26 16:13 · Score: 1

Uh, yeah, but I just configured one with 17inch LCD, 60gig HD, and Combo drive and it only came to $1600. If I upgrade the processor excessively, and throw in a wireless card and all the software packs (games mostly apparently - the Linux is in for free) I can ramp it up to $2000.

I'm not trying to claim Apple is horrendously expensive (though they are in NZ due to local distributors), but really, this isn't such a bad deal on the PC.

Jedidiah.

--
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by bach37 · 2004-01-26 16:19 · Score: 2

And people say Macs are expensive?

Ah duh that would be a yes. You can make an AMD XP XXXX+ system for under $400 easy. Add a LCD if you wish and also DVD-R's are at $100, so you could have a kick ass computer for well under $1000, and half the price of that iMac. Sorry dude.

Scott
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by cehardin · 2004-01-26 16:54 · Score: 1

Yeah, but the iMac will actually work and allow you to do amazing things like actually USE the damn DVD-R to make, yunno, movies and stuff.

Oh yeah, I guess you could run windows on your AMD XP XXXX+ and use Windows Movie Maker...not!
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by kamapuaa · 2004-01-26 17:31 · Score: 3, Funny

Wow, at those prices it's surprising that Element Computers (manufacturer of the ubiquitous Plutonium 1000 computer) can maintain their dominant position in the computer market.

--
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 17:36 · Score: 0

Sure if you add the cost of all the software (Windows XP + DVD player + CD burner + IDE if you're a developper), PC's cost just as more as macs, or more.

But, it's so easy to steal software on PC's. That's why people think macs are more expensive. Plus you can even buy separate hardware parts (of varying quality and compatibility) and put them together just for the fun of it! It's just awesome when you have a dead CPU or incompatible memory and you don't know why the machine is not booting. Surely PC's are better.
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 18:56 · Score: 0

Dude something is wrong if you are getting a computer with 60Gb HD when you pay $1600..! I'd expect at least a quarter of a terabyte for that price...!
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by thedbp · 2004-01-26 19:35 · Score: 1

So get an eMac ... in the same price range, already built, with very nice specs. one for every budget!
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 21:21 · Score: 0

You forgot to yell "Photoshop! Nayh Nayh!"
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by jez9999 · 2004-01-27 00:17 · Score: 3, Informative

Oh yeah, I guess you could run windows on your AMD XP XXXX+ and use Windows Movie Maker...not!

No, maybe not. Ya see, Windows Movie Maker is the 'Notepad' of movie editing on Windows.

But you could use Magix video deLuxe PLUS, Magix Movie Edit Pro 2004, Sony Screenblast Movie Studio, Ulead Videostudio, Pinnacle Studio, Roxio VideoWave Movie Creator ...

--
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by Moraelin · 2004-01-27 01:25 · Score: 2, Interesting

Actually, no. I haven't stolen a single piece of software on my computer, and it's still cheaper than those macs.

Plus, there's something about being able to upgrade that PC as needed, instead of being locked into Apple's (or Dell's) lame "throw away the whole computer and buy a new one" scheme.

E.g., do I need new hard drives? Not really.

Do I need to buy a new OS _minor_ version every year, like you Mac fans seem happy to? Hell, no. This here Windows 2000 (full version, and yes, paid for) still runs everything perfectly. Maybe because unlike Apple, Microsoft can stick to an API, instead of blundering through "oh, this year we're using a completely different kernel" experiments.

Do I need a new LCD monitor with each PC, like you iMac lemmings get? Nope.

So putting that all together, it's cost me about 1000$ to swap a new mobo, an A64 3200+ and a Radeon 9800 XT into the existing computer. Even if I'm to add the price of the already bought 16ms LCD monitor (which is light-years ahead of the lame cheap-ass panel in the iMac), I still end up under 1500$.

And unlike the Mac, I can actually run games on this machine.

So what do we have? In one corner, the fastest (non-overclocked) gaming PC money can buy. In the other corner a lame iMac which is useless for anything except web browsing. No, thanks. I'll stick to my PC, and save a bunch of money in the process.

Haven't had a dead CPU _ever_, and surprisingly enough the memory was true to the specs printed on it. (E.g., surprisingly enough, if you were a cheapskate and bought CL3 RAM, don't expect it to run at CL2.) Also surprisingly enough, the machine booted on the first try. Go figure.

So, please... just because you're the non-technical kind who's terminally affraid to install a CPU, doesn't mean everyone else is in the same bracket. You stick to your Macs, I'll stick to my PC.

--
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by cehardin · 2004-01-27 03:11 · Score: 1

As you raise the price more and more. Next comes the firewire card, etc.etc.
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by thedbp · 2004-01-27 04:53 · Score: 1

Actually, no. I haven't stolen a single piece of software on my computer, and it's still cheaper than those macs.

This may be so, but since there's absolutely no comparison for iLife in the PC world, you still lose out here.

Plus, there's something about being able to upgrade that PC as needed, instead of being locked into Apple's (or Dell's) lame "throw away the whole computer and buy a new one" scheme.

Actually, you CAN upgrade iMacs. Its a long-standing myth that Macs are not upgradable, they have been for quite some time. They use industry standard HDs, RAM, etc. And since Macs traditionally have a much longer usable life, this isn't a valid point either. I bought a blue and white G3 in 1999. It now has a G4, DVD-R, 200GB storage, 1GB RAM, upgraded video card, etc. Not a single piece is stock, and it still fits all my needs. Upgradable and long lasting.

And unlike the Mac, I can actually run games on this machine.

Sigh. Old argument.

Do I need to buy a new OS _minor_ version every year, like you Mac fans seem happy to? Hell, no.

There's nothing minor about the changes between 10, 10.1, 10.2, and 10.3. Its just that they release MAJOR system updates more frequently. And most software that runs on 10.3 will run on 10.2 and 10.1 as well. And 10.1 was a free upgrade from 10.0. Do your homework, you're obviously misinformed.

So putting that all together, it's cost me about 1000$ to swap a new mobo, an A64 3200+ and a Radeon 9800 XT into the existing computer. Even if I'm to add the price of the already bought 16ms LCD monitor (which is light-years ahead of the lame cheap-ass panel in the iMac), I still end up under 1500$

And iMacs start at 1299, cheaper than your 1500 quote, and a consumer doesn't have to waste days putting it all together, installing OSes, downloading drivers, etc. You get the picture. I'm guessing your time isn't worth anything.

So, please... just because you're the non-technical kind who's terminally affraid to install a CPU, doesn't mean everyone else is in the same bracket. You stick to your Macs, I'll stick to my PC.

I build PCs too buddy. Its a pretty much "slot-A into tab-A" affair, and if I were you I wouldn't take so much pride in it - somewhere out there is an 8 year old who could built a PC that's better faster and cheaper. And to clear things up, I've upgraded processors on many Macs as well. If I want a router/firewall, cheap secondary box, project box, I'd use commodity parts and a free OS. But if I'm going to sit in front of a computer that has my whole life on it, and handles all my day to day tasks that make life FUN, not just FUNCTIONAL, its all about the Mac.

This all pretty much adds up to your arguments being hollow and your pride being hurt by the fact that you couldn't possibly have made the wrong computing choice, even though you never bothered to do all the research. Obviously.

This is my favorite quote:
In the other corner a lame iMac which is useless for anything except web browsing

Hahahahahahahahahahaha! Doesn't even merit a response. You've obviously never used one and haven't spent enough time doing anything other than gaming on your PC to realize that for media, internet, networking, printing, PDF workflow, ease-of-use, stability, extensibility, and much much more, the iMac wins hands down.

I mean, how can you sit there and say that a full UNIX based system that allows joe schmoe to use apache, SMB, NFS, AFP, WebDAV, N
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? by Moraelin · 2004-01-27 05:32 · Score: 1

"There's nothing minor about the changes between 10, 10.1, 10.2, and 10.3. Its just that they release MAJOR system updates more frequently. And most software that runs on 10.3 will run on 10.2 and 10.1 as well. And 10.1 was a free upgrade from 10.0. Do your homework, you're obviously misinformed."
There's nothing minor between 2000 and XP either. But the fact remains that I can stick to 2000, or for that matter I could even still use Windows 98. For non-games, even NT.
Can you run MacOS X binaries on MacOS 7? Or even on MacOS 9? No? Well, then don't come spewing that "Microsoft tax" crap in all topics, because it's you who's paying a yearly "Apple tax".
"And iMacs start at 1299, cheaper than your 1500 quote"
Except for that price you'll still have a bottom-of-the-barrel iMac with a 1 GHz or less G4. And some cheap-ass graphics card that's useless for anything even resembling 3d.
While I'll still have a top of the line 64 bit Athlon 64 3200+, with a Radeon 9800 XT. Oh wait, you Mac people don't even have the option of getting an XT yet. Have a look on ATI's site.
So, please, spare me the crap. If you want to convince me that the Mac isn't overpriced, how about comparing apples to apples? (Pun intended.) You'll have to come up with something _far_ better than that low end iMac.
"and a consumer doesn't have to waste days putting it all together, installing OSes, downloading drivers, etc. You get the picture. I'm guessing your time isn't worth anything."
If your time is worth more than about $500 per hour, then indeed, please stick to pre-built Macs. Because that low end $1299 iMac is just about $1000 overpriced. And you saved about two hours total for that money.
Of course, even if you _are_ the kind of CEO who does make $500 per hour, after taxes, you also could realize that you could pay some $20 extra to have it all put together at the shop. Or you could just order a Dell.
"I build PCs too buddy. Its a pretty much "slot-A into tab-A" affair, and if I were you I wouldn't take so much pride in it - somewhere out there is an 8 year old who could built a PC that's better faster and cheaper."
Bingo. So don't tell _me_ that. Tell it to the Mac lemming I was answering to. He's the one who was making it sound like building a PC was some uber-scary horror movie. He's the one who was willing to get an overpriced Mac just to avoid that horror. Heck, maybe he'll listen to you more ;)

--
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.

Not Available to the General Public by Schlemphfer · 2004-01-26 14:28 · Score: 1

Not to flame, but the link to the Dell web page was one of the least helpful links I've ever seen in a Slashdot summary. And that's saying something. As other people have noticed, there's not a thing on the linked page that provides any information about the n-series.

So I looked around a bit, and through google I found a back door to Dell site that provides information. But the link cancels after fifteen minutes, so I can't post it here. It appears that this page is only for people associated with corporations, governments, education, and health care. It looks as though the general public cannot buy an n-series computer through Dell's main site.

I did a bit more searching in google and found a news.com story about the n-series. It was posted back in August. Of 2002.

From the Dell page I got access to, I was unable to tell if the company reduces the price for people who choose the n-series instead of the identical windows-equipped machines. It'll be a great thing when tier one PC companies readily make consumer boxes available without Windows, and pass along a discount. I don't think that day has yet arrived.

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I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?

I bet a large number of buyers will run MS on them by MadAnthony02 · 2004-01-26 14:31 · Score: 4, Insightful

My guess is that a decent number of these will be bought by companies, schools, or other organizations that already have some sort of Microsoft site license. They will still pay microsoft, but won't have to pay for a machine with an OS, then pay more to install something over it.

The college I work at has an MS site license through a college consortium. We would buy PC's with one version of Windows then overwrite them with images of another, usually because we weren't ready to deploy whatever the latest and greatest OS yet. I'm sure a lot of businesses have site licenses for NT or 2k and aren't ready yet to deploy XP, and don't want to have to pay for XP licenses when XP would be wiped off 5 minutes after opening the box.

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I have blog like everyone else

mod parent up by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:33 · Score: 0

How is it a troll to speak the truth? Fucking tard high-school moderators.

Gr8at!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:34 · Score: 0

Now I can play Duke Nukem forever!

Yay!

System Specs by ShipIt · 2004-01-26 14:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

The specs on the $319 Dell:

- Dell Dimension 2400N
- Intel(R) Celeron(R) Processor at 2.4GHz with 400MHz front side bus
- 128MB Shared DDR SDRAM at 333MHz
- FreeDOS(TM) included in the box, ready to install
- Dell(TM) Quietkey(R) Keyboard
- Dell(R) 2-Button Scroll Mouse
- 40GB ATA/100 Value Hard Drive
- No Floppy Drive Included
- No monitor
- Integrated Intel(R) 3D Extreme Graphics
- Integrated Audio
- No Speakers
- Integrated 10/100 Ethernet
- No Modem
- 1 Year Limited Warranty plus 1 Year On-site Service

Beef up the memory a little and you got yourself a nice home file server or project box.

Why not Knoppix? by poopie · 2004-01-26 14:35 · Score: 2, Interesting

If companies want to ship a computer with a free OS, I believe tossing a knoppix cd in the box would be a good move...

Re:Why not Knoppix? by Pharmboy · 2004-01-26 15:42 · Score: 3, Informative

I was thinking the exact same thing. I have been getting distro happy the last few months, trying several, and I have personally burned and given out several Knoppix CDs, including mailing them to relatives. Its the best for trying Linux, without having to install anything. I have used it a more than a few times to recover data, check disks, copy data, etc. from win9x disks. Wanting to find out how to modify and reburn it, to run it more in 'expert' mode rather than desktop mode, but loving the completeness of it.

I just downloaded featherlinux (70mb i think) to test it. Its supposed to be the best lightweight utility bootable CD version.

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Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!

Distancing? by apoplectic · 2004-01-26 14:35 · Score: 1

Sure, by mere coincidence.

Interpret this as a move to offer the cheapest of the cheap computers. Don't go holding your breath waiting for Dell to eliminate, or substantiall reduce the number of, Windows-based machines.

$319 for the machine by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:39 · Score: 0

How much longer until people are able to buy a new computer for cheaper than the cost of Windows?

I wish I had an iBook... by Deraj+DeZine · 2004-01-26 14:39 · Score: 1

They have a convertible laptop/tablet PC for $999. If you can find another for that price or less, I'd be very interested.

This next part isn't directed at you so much as others: how is buying a Windows PC from Dell because it's cheaper better than buying products from WalMart because they're cheaper? I don't support WalMart and I don't support Microsoft (I have a hatred for WalMart, Microsoft I'm just not interested in anymore).

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True story.

Re:I wish I had an iBook... by SubtleNuance · 2004-01-27 00:55 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I don't support WalMart and I don't support Microsoft (I have a hatred for WalMart, Microsoft I'm just not interested in anymore).

DerajDezine: Im with you, re: walmart -- hell, is it really so hard to pay +5% more for food and daily sundries that are A) better quality and B) from a local speciality vendor?

Walmart is exploiting sprawl, and we're all paying for it.

Joy to the world! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:44 · Score: 0

The waiting now is for Dell to ship FreeWindows 3.11 for Workgroups with their computers!

BIOS FLASHING! by solios · 2004-01-26 14:46 · Score: 2, Informative

For all you froods who are all OMFGWTF WHAT IS THE POINT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!1, well... that's it.

Motherboard BIOS. Updates? DOS floppy or DOS onboard generally required. Not always, especially these days, but geeze. FreeDOS, I assume, will work just as well as DOS for this purpose.

I'm a Mac user and I know this! What's your excuse? ;-D

Re:BIOS FLASHING! by evilviper · 2004-01-27 03:57 · Score: 1

FreeDOS, I assume, will work just as well as DOS for this purpose.

You shouldn't assume. FreeDOS is nice, but nowhere near completely compatible with MS-DOS. The absolute last thing I want is to have a BIOS flash program start flashing, then exit on an error in the middle of the process.

It's ridiculous these days to require DOS for BIOS flashing. Windows users no longer have DOS on their systems (it was inaccessible as of ME, and does not exist in NT4, 2000, XP, etc.)

Several companies have the update program completely in the BIOS, requiring only the binary to be on a FAT-formatted floppy disk.

If that's not an option, then companies should provide a disk image for download, that contains the operating system if needed. Maxtor, for instance, has their hard drive software running on top of some cheapo clone of DOS that I've never heard of, so it's entirely possible for companies to take care of the DOS requirement.

It's very simple... If you distribute entire floppy images, companies can then choose to have their bios updates made as Linux/BSD executables if they wish, and distribute a tiny Linux/BSD OS on the disk image.

I'm a Mac user and I know this! What's your excuse? ;-D

I can tell you're a MAC users. You probably haven't used a PC in the past decade, or you'd know this already.

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:BIOS FLASHING! by solios · 2004-01-27 05:45 · Score: 1

Actually, I used one yesterday. :P My coworker's still trying to get the current Debian installer to boot off of the beast so I can ssh in and take care of the rest. o_o

Anyway.

The last time there was a Big Hardware Stink in my department was when said coworker built a box without a floppy- because we don't use them and didn't think we needed them.

WRONG!

The motherboard required a bios update, which required a DOS...... you guessed it.... FLOPPY. Gah.

Personally, I chalk it up as a quirk of the architecture. I'm happy with my Open Firmware- much less hassle to update (obviously, Apple controls the hardware AND the software).

Though I doubt most Mac users would know what to do with an OF prompt- it's a FORTH interpreter.
Re:BIOS FLASHING! by evilviper · 2004-01-30 10:22 · Score: 1

The motherboard required a bios update, which required a DOS...... you guessed it.... FLOPPY. Gah.

Any bootable floppy (or floppy image) can be made into a bootable CD, trivially.

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Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant

Spyware it better. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:48 · Score: 0

Please tell me FreeDOS still has the spyware on it.... it wouldnt be a dell without 100 FreeDOS desktop items calling out "buy me, buy me".

The day dell doesnt include spyware is the day i sell my alienware and get a dell

LTSP - K12Linux by Corrado · 2004-01-26 14:49 · Score: 1

Wow, this looks like a GREAT system for a Linux Terminal Server Project K12! I would love to be able to order a bunch of these and put them in our classrooms. Should be quiet enough and if not, we can yank the hard drives out of them and maybe make cheapo a RAID box out of them. :)

Anyway, I priced a basic system with a refurbished 15" flat screen monitor at $589. Not too shabby for a complete flat screen system. And then get a slightly beafier, headless one for the server for about the same price. Good stuff!

--
KangarooBox - We make IT simple!

This benefits students by sh0gun · 2004-01-26 14:50 · Score: 2, Insightful

With Dell doing this they are really benefiting students that attend schools that have a deal with Microsoft. At my school all students can get Windows XP Pro for free from all of the computer labs on campus. Now if a student buys a Dell computer they can get one without Windows since they can get a copy of Windows free from school. We also have staff that will assist a student in installing Windows XP for free.

Seems like anything to save a couple bucks will be good for some students.

Re:Why not Linux - DOS choices by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:51 · Score: 0

PC-DOS was just a repackaged, rebranded MS-DOS. Even when MS- and PC-DOS parted ways after MS-DOS 6 (or was it 5? I don't remember), IBM still drew from the same code as MS-DOS. This is why Microsoft never did anything to lock out PC-DOS with Windows as they did to DR-DOS: PC-DOS users were still indirectly licensing Microsoft software.

Not a wake up call for MS ... yet by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 14:52 · Score: 0

I suspect that Dell is doing this for two reasons, neither of which has anything to do with wanting to run away from Microsoft. First, if Dell offers computers with a free OS, they don't have to deal with people trying to return the OS for a refund. Second, if they offer this particular bundle, they can legitimately advertise a really low price. Microsoft will sit up and take notice when Dell starts shipping a large percentage of its machines with FreeDOS and/or Linux.

Why not ship with Linux instead? by Sludge · 2004-01-26 14:58 · Score: 1

More functionality means more support costs. Higher opportunity for security patch support. This way they can ship with an OS, but without any of the hassle of supporting all that modern functionality.

Re:Why not ship with Linux instead? by dtfinch · 2004-01-26 16:09 · Score: 1

Which distribution should they use?

If you buy PC to run Linux on, chances are you're going to want to download and install it yourself.

Dean predicts comeback, takes swipe at media by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:10 · Score: 0

Dean predicts comeback, takes swipe at media
Judy Dean says she would give up medical practice

Monday, January 26, 2004 Posted: 8:37 PM EST (0137 GMT) NASHUA, New Hampshire (CNN) -- Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean said Monday that he is making a comeback in New Hampshire, and predicted he would close the gap with Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts before the Democratic primary Tuesday. "I think we can. It's very close," he said in an interview on CNN's "Wolf Blitzer Reports." "We've been surging in the last few days. Dean said his comments questioning Kerry's judgment in voting for the Iraq war but against the Persian Gulf War in 1991 do not amount to negative campaigning, as Kerry has charged. Dean said he was making a legitimate comparison of their records so voters could contrast how each would make foreign policy decisions if elected. "I do question Senator Kerry's judgment," he said. "[He] voted against the first Gulf War, which I supported, when there were Iraqi troops on the ground in Kuwait setting fire to the Kuwaiti oil fields, which was a major environmental catastrophe. "He voted not to intervene, then he votes to intervene recently in Iraq, which I opposed, because the president gives him all these reasons, so far all of which turned out not to be true." Dean, whose foreign policy credentials have been questioned by Kerry and other rivals, said "perhaps my foreign policy experience and judgment might be better in the White House than his, since he seemed to have voted wrong on both wars." After taking a drubbing for his growling performance after coming in third in the Iowa caucuses, Dean took a swipe at the news media. "I never worry about the news media being fair. The news media does what the news media does. They're an entertainment businesses at least as much as the news media," he said. "I think you report the news, you create the news and that's what you guys do. And that's fine." Challenged by Blitzer that the media did not create his performance in Des Moines, Dean said, "But you chose to play it 673 times in one week. That's your privilege. "If you want to be president of the United States, you had better be willing to take whatever the news media throw at you, and I'm very willing to take it," he said. Dean's wife, Judy, said that if her husband is elected president, she would reluctantly give up her medical practice in Vermont, though she held out the possibility that she might return to medicine once in Washington. "I really enjoy my practice. I'm a good doctor, my patients like me, they've been my patients for a long time. It would be hard to give them up," Mrs. Dean said. "But there's not a lot of things more important than being president." Until Iowa, Mrs. Dean was rarely seen on the campaign trail, opting to stay in Vermont to tend to her patients and the couple's teenage son. But she went to Iowa near the close of the campaign, and after her husband's weak performance there she has been a more visible presence in New Hampshire. Dean said his tepid performance in Iowa was the result of having spent nearly two months as the front-runner in the race, under scrutiny from the media and attacks from his opponents that put his campaign on the defensive. "We were hammered," he said. Dean said no matter what happens Tuesday night in New Hampshire, he intends "to go on as long as it makes sense to." He said he would concentrate on five of the seven states that have primaries or caucuses February 3 -- South Carolina, Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma and Missouri -- and said he has organizations in place to compete in the other two, North Dakota and Delaware. "One of the things that happened when things were great before Iowa is that we did put a lot of resources into these forward states," Dean said.

Um... by ericdfields · 2004-01-26 15:23 · Score: 1

According to the Dell link in the article abstract, you can get any one of those PCs with Red Hat Linux Enterprise.......

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eric http://www.ericdfields.com/

What good is a DOS box to a company? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:23 · Score: 1, Interesting

Some here have questioned the usefulness of a company running DOS on a computer. Just to mention an example from personal experience, one of the most common types of turnstiles used today in amusement parks (for example, some of the Disney theme parks) contain a real small PC that have a couple of MB of memory and a hard-drive. Point is, the machine couldn't handle Windows. It didn't make sense to run Windows on it anyway, since the main display for the turnstile is an 80-character by 6 row LED display, not a computer monitor.

I'm sure there are other examples where Windows is neither needed nor wanted by a corporation, but where primitive DOS still rules the day. Even Linux would be too big (and overkill to boot) to run in these things. DOS is small, simple, stable, and runs well on slow processors in as little as 640K of memory.

It all depends on what you're doing.

Walmart computers by Pharmboy · 2004-01-26 15:25 · Score: 1

I just purchased four of the $199 computers from Walmart.com about 6 weeks ago. 3 were 1400 Durons, 1 was a 1600 (all were supposed to be 1400, got a bonus). 30gb drives, (maxtor i think), onboard NIC and audio, CD, no floppy, almost adequate mouse/speakers/keyboard, good drivers on the CD, good packaging, 128MB RAM, $15 each to ship.

All things considered, I am very happy with them. I installed 98 on two of them (fun to have to actually PAY for something that old.) and dual booted another with RH9 and 98. The other is running ME. Two on a small/medium network, two on their own network. Yes, graphics would suck for 3d since its 8mb shared ram, but for regular business apps and web duty, they do just fine. I did bump the ram up to 256 (pc133) and install a floppy in one, but the boxes are decent, cheap mid towers.

The version of Lindows that comes with it rather sux0rs, however. I was expecting to get to download SOMETHING, but it appears they have it locked in where you either pay, or try to manually install gcc and build everything. dont find any rpms for it without paying. I was disappointed since I was interested in Lindows as a possible light weight OS for an office, even if for pay. This is not it.

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Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!

Re:Walmart computers by NormalVisual · 2004-01-26 15:37 · Score: 1

I've bought two machines from Wal-Mart - one is a C3 system I've had for about a year now that's run 24/7 with zero problems. The other is a Duron 1.4GHz system that I recently bought for my mom to replace her ailing Toshiba laptop. I've been quite pleased with both machines, and they're cheap enough that if I have to replace them in a year, it's no big deal.

For my mom's machine, I investigated Dell (I also have a Dell Dimension PIII-700), but the thing that turned me off the most about them was the $99 shipping charge they were asking, when shipping from Wal-Mart was a whopping $14. I don't mind paying extra for noticeably better quality, but frankly my Wal-Mart Microtel box has held up better than my Dell. :-)

--
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Re:Walmart computers by Pharmboy · 2004-01-26 15:49 · Score: 1

About 18 months ago, I went ahead and did the Dell thing for Mom, with 2.0 celeron, 20gb, 256mb, xphome, and got her onto aol for 6 months, then cable modem. Wasn't too bad, about $700 shipping and all, with a 17" monitor. Was xmas present 2002. At the time I didn't want to take "the risk" of sending her a Linux box, but if I was sending it now, would probably do the walmart box with Fedora or RH9 installed. Especially because after buying monitors, I could now get 2 computers for the same price.

Oh, I also have bought 3 of the via 1000mhz boxes (CR-53) which are not bad, but not as good a deal. no ram, no hd, no cd, no floppy, but a really small format for around $153 for case/mb/cpu. Couldn't find them the next time I needed boxes, so I bought the Walmart boxes, which turned out to be a better deal.

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Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!

Re:Are they doing this for the pirateers... NO... by AtariDatacenter · 2004-01-26 15:28 · Score: 2, Informative

Read their own words. "Ideal for companies with proprietary software images"

Remember the *double Microsoft Tax*? A large company pays to purchase a system (which has Windows), then they pay again for their special corporate image of windows? If they buy a system like this one, then they've got a single Microsoft tax. It makes sense.

And it makes sense for people who run alternative OSs, of want more of a kiosk, or perhaps have a MAME box they want to get going. For $320 with free shipping, that's one hell of a MAME box.

BTW: I found the URL given in the story a bad choice. I found this one instead.

Dell's deal by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:30 · Score: 0

Putting Linux CDs in the deal would upset too many people. We can't agree on what desktop environment or window manager to use let alone what flavor of Linux. Dell figures the Linux nuts would throw a fit and not buy from Dell. Also, a lot of people know DOS commands one way or another so FreeDOS would be more comfortable to them. Adding Knoppix CD would be nice but the above Linux nuts would protest. Also, what if SCO won the case against Linux in other nations? Linux would be reduced worldwide. Dell is being smart be letting people know there are free OSs out there besides BSDs (suck) and Linux (great).

Link is OK by dbCooper0 · 2004-01-26 15:36 · Score: 1

You just have to drill down deeper as if you're going to buy one.

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db
Cig:
ôô
/`

Re:Link is OK by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 16:28 · Score: 0

This link changed-- earlier it went straight to a $319 Dimension. I have it saved to my cart. Now the page lists all the Dimensions for comparison. - Noel

Re:What's it gonna take to get a Knoppix CD includ by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:36 · Score: 0

The saddest part is that you're not trolling. Please, have a beer and relax -- linux just doesn't matter THAT much.

It's a dupe by Webmoth · 2004-01-26 15:36 · Score: 0, Flamebait

I think this is a duplicate of the previous Slashdot article. It tells about a free DOS program that's spreading around email, targeting SCO.

Oh, wait, you say FreeDOS isn't a no-cost denial-of-service program?

--
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.

uhhhh by orionware · 2004-01-26 15:37 · Score: 1

uhhh. two word...

what the hell am I supposed to do with that crap?

--

Karma means nothing to me, so suck it...

Ah, DOS... Those were the days! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:37 · Score: 0

Anybody remembers 4DOS, a shell replacement for command.com? It had all those cool features like command history, completition with tab, and so on. But the best feature was definitely the possibility to show filenames and prompts in lower case. ;)

as they say, the rabbits can dance

February 2 - ironic... by dbCooper0 · 2004-01-26 15:38 · Score: 1

That's the estimated ship date for the desktop I looked at for $319.

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db
Cig:
ôô
/`

Dell w/FreeDOS is new, but Dell w/Linux is not. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 15:42 · Score: 0

Dell has had an option to have Red Hat, all sorts of versions, on many of their enterprise desktops for a few years now. Since a home user can order those systems, there is really no reason to get a FreeDOS system since Red Hat (no arguing about flavors necessary) is far superior to FreeDOS.

Ordered one by dtfinch · 2004-01-26 15:48 · Score: 1

I hope the order goes through. They wanted a company name because it's sold in their small business section, so I filled in my real name and added the word "software" to the end.

It looked like a sweet deal compared to what I've seen elsewhere unless there's something horrifically wrong with it. I also hope that it doesn't get lost/damaged in shipping, returned to sender, or stolen from my front porch. I'm not home during business hours.

Does FreeDos boot loadlin? by r6144 · 2004-01-26 15:54 · Score: 1

Once I tried to install linux on a computer. I had no boot CDs handy, nor can I make any boot diskettes besides those coming with the new computer, so I tried to use LOADLIN to boot linux, after which I can do some manual installation. The problem is that I have to boot into some kind of DOS (including Windows 98's DOS mode) in order to use it. A diskette coming with the box contains FreeDOS, but it doesn't seem to support LOADLIN at all. In the end I found a Windows 98 boot diskette from somewhere and finished the job.

Why FreeDos Opposed to Linux? by ToasterTester · 2004-01-26 15:59 · Score: 1

Real simple the cost of doing tech support. DOS can be supported by monkeys. Linux especially for newbies requires a fair amount of explanation and hand-holding.

It's the same reason so many manufacturers only install Windows. Windows is enough of a commodity product that lots of low cost trained monkeys to support it. Plus with Window's market share a newbies can pick up a phone, dial a random number, and whoever they get is bound to be able to help them.

Re:Why FreeDos Opposed to Linux? by fucksl4shd0t · 2004-01-26 21:20 · Score: 1

Real simple the cost of doing tech support. DOS can be supported by monkeys. Linux especially for newbies requires a fair amount of explanation and hand-holding.
That's because it's only used by monkeys.
Customer: Oo oo ooo oo oo oo!
Tech Support: Oo oo oo oo ooo ooo oo oo o o ooo o oooo ooo oo oo o o oo.
Customer: Oo oo ooo oo?
Tech Support: Oo oo oo o o ooo oo o o o o oooo oo.
--click--

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Like what I said? You might like my music

What's the point? (hear me out) by MoneyT · 2004-01-26 16:02 · Score: 1

While it's great that a mainstream vendor is shipping a product without windows installed on it, Be. Inc learned long ago, it's not what you ship it with, it's what comes preinstalled that counts.

We have two potential customers here:

a) people looking to buy a cheap PC. These people are either too non computer savy to buy this machine (and will opt for windows installed) or they know enough to install a system but will install windows on this anyways because they already have a copy.

b) People looking to avoid microsoft, who want a cheap system and are capable of installing Linux. Maybe it's just me, but if these people are fully capable of installing and understanding linux, then chances are, they aren't buying barrel bottom prefabs from the likes of dell.

IOW, this is all a false hope.

--
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984

Re:What's the point? (hear me out) by BlacKat · 2004-01-26 16:13 · Score: 1

I think you forgot two other types of people:

c) People who have already bought a copy of a Microsoft OS and don't want to pay the "Microsoft Tax" yet again.

d) People who never pay the "Microsoft Tax" and install an illegally copied version of Windows.
Re:What's the point? (hear me out) by MoneyT · 2004-01-26 17:57 · Score: 1

Both of whom are really falling under part A. They're just using windows.

--
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Re:What's the point? (hear me out) by BlacKat · 2004-01-26 18:22 · Score: 1

Hmm, yes I guess you are right. I misread part of the statement and got a bit too detailed. :)

Get a grip, people by criscooil · 2004-01-26 16:08 · Score: 0

I cannot believe the number of people going "FreeDOS, yuk! what good is that?". In case you haven't been paying attention, M$ _punishes_ PC makers who dare to sell a PC without an OS. Meanwhile, Dell has probably begun to notice a slowly rising number of inquiries for PC's with Linux and/or no OS (so that the customer can install Linux himself). As some have noted, Dell probably is not ready to support Linux to the same level as Windows, so they cant raise expectations by installing themselves. This is a small but significant step step in the right direction, and I salute Dell for it.

--

My life is an open book ... up to a point.

aargh by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 16:11 · Score: 0

Wtf makes people here think Dell cannot ship Linux?

One can only assume the typical (Majority) of /. readers are pre-pubescant 15 years olds with zero real world experience.

Dells PowerEdge servers all have Linux as an option. And Netware. And Windows.

Dell previously supported Linux on a workstation line, but i think they dropped that support a few years ago, due to unpopularity.

hahaha you said "come" by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 16:24 · Score: 0

NOT TRUE - License ARE transferable by Wil63 · 2004-01-26 16:39 · Score: 2, Informative

It all depends on the particular license vendor. In the case of Microsoft you can even sell the software on eBay, as long as you provide all the accompanying documentation and original discs etc. Microsoft only prevents this on versions specifically marked "Non-transferrable". check your EULA.

Re:NOT TRUE - License ARE transferable by Wil63 · 2004-01-26 16:47 · Score: 1

I don't know about this particular case though...I'm just talking generally - just thought I'd add that : )
Re:NOT TRUE - License ARE transferable by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 02:28 · Score: 0

And the specially-marked non-transferable ones are the ones that come preloaded from mfgrs, like Dell. I'm sure there's at least one type of license out there that is transferable. I just got out of supporting MS networks before they ever came out.

Games and GUI by DrCode · 2004-01-26 16:59 · Score: 1

Well, you can play Privateer, Wing Commander 3/4, and probably Ultima 7/8.

And isn't GEM available for free now?

Not True. I work there by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 17:12 · Score: 4, Interesting

most customers who buy n-series are buying because they are some kind of retail chain, like hollywood video for example, that uses a text based dos terminal or some such interface that is not windows. They usually buy these boxes by the hundreds, and getting them w/o an OS has nothing to do with Dell distancing itself from microsoft. the only reason freedos is there is so they comply with their agreement with microsoft not to ship a system without an OS. it doesn't have to ship with a microsoft OS, just some OS. posting AC because I work at dell

Details of the license by tepples · 2004-01-26 17:15 · Score: 1

these customers will just be upgrading from DOS :)

Ha ha, but does the Windows site license cover upgrades from non-Microsoft DOS or from the MS-DOS-based Windows 9x series to the NT-based Windows XP series?

Re:Why not Linux - DOS choices by Glonoinha · 2004-01-26 17:15 · Score: 1

Actually with the exception of some subtle differences in DOS version 4.01, IBM-DOS was MS-DOS.

--
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer

No-OS systems by Animats · 2004-01-26 17:16 · Score: 1

I've bought a number of machines and installed QNX on them, and always buy them with no OS installed. It's not that hard to get no-OS systems. I get them from Solid Electric, a small systems house in Silicon Valley. They offfer "Fedora Linux" as a free install, or you can get a true no-OS PC with a blank hard drive.

I'm looking forward to the new release of QNX. More drivers, a modern browser, and other good stuff is coming. Windows CE customers are getting fed up with Microsoft and switching to QNX. (I've heard some amusing stories about Microsoft vs. Detroit: "No, you don't get to display the Microsoft logo every time the car starts".) It's not a general purpose desktop OS yet, but for embedded applications, it's way ahead of everything else. (Windows CE is too flakey, VxWorks is too low-level, RTLinux isn't protected mode, and the user-level "real time" Linux variants aren't hard real time.)

Whats the chance.... by SomeOtherGuy · 2004-01-26 17:38 · Score: 1

Of getting some good device drivers to go with that copy of freeDos? Wonder if they will also throw in a 5 1/4 floppy drive. Damn I am a sucker for this retro stuff.

--
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.

Useless...No laptops. by incom · 2004-01-26 17:56 · Score: 1

You still have to get windows when you buy a laptop, and OS-less desktops are everywhere and easily hand built. *WHY* wouldn't they have this option available for laptops?

--
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.

But They Still "Recommend" XP by schmoboy · 2004-01-26 18:01 · Score: 1

Ya, but if you go HERE it still states in the upper left that they recommend XP. Are they contractually obligated to say that?

Re:But They Still "Recommend" XP by darketernal · 2004-01-26 19:17 · Score: 1

I think it's supposed to save on the support calls.

Then again, all of THOSE go to Bangalore, so it's good to give those assholes a hard time.

I'm missing something here... by athlon02 · 2004-01-26 18:04 · Score: 1

it's DOS, knock off or otherwise. I mean I can maneuver in a dos prompt well enough, but JUST DOS and no gui installed? that's ridiculous. in such a case just about any unix distro is going to kick DOS. and if you want it for nostalgia why waste $320 on a 2.6GHz box? that sounds like buying a ferari just drive through school zones all day!! but if you dig that kinda thing more power to ya.

Re:I'm missing something here... by omega9 · 2004-01-26 19:12 · Score: 1

For Frank's sake, this isn't about buying the computer to actually use DOS, it's about a system to avoid having to pay for Windows. Would you be happier if that same machine came with XP and cost $100 more? If your intention is to install Linux, or any operating system besides the one they ship you, as soon as you crack it open, wouldn't you rather pay as little as possible for any preexisting operating system?

A sizable portion of the discussion on /. revolves around a bunch of us installing our own picky operating systems, having it just the way we want it. Now, for some reason, you're acting like that whole notion never existed.

--
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it.

So let me get this straight... by FooGoo · 2004-01-26 18:05 · Score: 1

Every time I buy a Dell without Windows I get a free denial of service attack? Thats great, I am so tired of having to pay for that. This is going to ruin the MS business model.

--
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them

You can love your DOS, just don't LOVE your DOS! by donleyp · 2004-01-26 18:06 · Score: 1

Ok, I used DOS from it's humble beginnings on the 8086. Heck, I even wrote a whole slew of TSR's for it. I had tons of utility programs and even helped program FidoNet software for it, but I *never* LOVED it. Apparently the guys at FreeDOS.org do. That's just scary to me.

--
You got any karma man? I really neeed it. Just a little hit! Come on!

2400 with XP is MUCH cheaper than FreeDOS Box by barcelona_stony · 2004-01-26 18:24 · Score: 2, Informative

Dells pricing makes little sense. Yes, if you configure the N-Series at its base price, it is $319, vs the $400 (Post Rebate) price of this weeks Small Business 2400 sale.

But, the SB 2400 comes with:
Pentium 2.4 vs Celeron 2.4
Good Keyboard vs crappy keyboard
Optical Mouse vs regular roller ball mouse
80 GB 7200 Hard Drive vs 40 GB 5400 HD
Floppy vs no Floppy
Speakers vs no Speakers
Modem vs no Modem

AND a copy of XP Home you can sell on Ebay.

So even if i'm installing Linux, why would I get the N-Series? Between the Pentium, Optical Mouse, Larger/Faster Hard Drive, (I won't use the rest but others will), I'd rather pay 400 for the better box.

If you price the N-Series with identical specs to this weeks 2400 Deal, the N-Series is 479 with the Celeron (no Pentium upgrade available).

Sometimes, Dell makes no sense.

Re:2400 with XP is MUCH cheaper than FreeDOS Box by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 19:24 · Score: 0

Actually if the situation is the same as when we got about 50 various Dell Optiplexs the Windows CDs won't install on anything but a Dell.
Re:2400 with XP is MUCH cheaper than FreeDOS Box by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 00:01 · Score: 0

I bought a Dell Inspiron 8100 laptop which came with a Windows XP disc. First thing I did was wipe the HDD and install Debian. A little later my father gets a used computer as a present but it is running Windows 98. I figure I'll give him the XP I'm not using but had paid for. Unfortunately, the XP installer refused to install the OS since it detected it was not being installed on a Dell. Most likely any unused XP CD from Dell is going to be a coaster.

You forgot "Free 17 inch flat panel" by waferhead · 2004-01-26 18:26 · Score: 1

Your point well taken, but also note the PC did not include a MONITOR, much less a flat panel.

Ignore above post---It's late. by waferhead · 2004-01-26 18:31 · Score: 1

It's late. I plead blind.

MS Can kill it by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 18:54 · Score: 0

If this gets to be too big a thorn in MS's side, they'll kill it with a simple lawsuit over the FAT filesystem patent. What DOS can run without a filesystem?

Almost there Dell by mog007 · 2004-01-26 19:00 · Score: 0

They're offering more than one choice on Operating Sytems, now when are they going to start selling computers with AMD processors as an alternative as well?

--
Learn something new.

It's Cheaper with Windows by hbo · 2004-01-26 19:18 · Score: 1

.. through the 28th, that is.

I configured the following Precision 360n:

P4/2.8Ghz/800Mhz
512Mb DDR400 RAM
Entry Keyboard
Dell Scroll Mouse
Quadro NVS 280 GDA
No Monitor/Speakers
80 Gb HD
24x CD-ROM
Floppy
FreeDOS
Cost $1,136

They have a $300 off deal through Wednesday. I configured the following system "regular" Precision 360:

P4/2.8Ghz/800Mhz
512Mb DDR400 RAM
Entry Keyboard
Dell Scroll Mouse
Quadro NVS 280 GDA
No Monitor/Speakers
80 Gb HD
24x CD-ROM
Floppy
Windows XP Pro
Cost $1,016

So, which one is the better value? The eMachine, of course!

--

"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers

There is a world beside Canada and USA... by q.kontinuum · 2004-01-26 19:42 · Score: 1

Afaik Linux-PCs where also available in Europe. "Europe" is this tiny, little, and "old" continent around 5000km east.

Sorry, could not resist...

--
Trolling is a art!

Re:There is a world beside Canada and USA... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-26 23:23 · Score: 0

I thought everyone overthere emigrated west about 100 years ago.....
Re:There is a world beside Canada and USA... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 00:34 · Score: 1, Funny

5000km? Why not 5Mm?

I think more people should use megametres for long distances. And maybe megagrammes and gigagrammes for heavy masses :)
Re:There is a world beside Canada and USA... by Illbay · 2004-01-27 04:31 · Score: 1

What's "Canada"?

--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
Re:There is a world beside Canada and USA... by Pope · 2004-01-27 07:49 · Score: 1

It's that place where snow is born! At least today, that is :)

--
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.

Yeah by Moderator · 2004-01-26 19:59 · Score: 0

Linux can't even read my FreeBSD partition.

--
The World is Yours.

They already do! by polyp2000 · 2004-01-26 20:09 · Score: 1

FreeDos is just an addition to the product line. They already ship boxes with linux.

--
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp

Well, doh.. by Kjella · 2004-01-26 20:26 · Score: 1

...I don't see what's remotely interesting about the parent post or 'brilliant' about the idea.

It's been a known fact that companies sell PCs with free OSs, and before that without OSs knowing full well that most of their customers will put a pirated OS there instead. That has been true since people were pirating MS-DOS.

That is also the whole basis for the Microsoft Tax (presumed guilty no matter what OS you run), Microsofts piracy numbers ( = PCs less official MS licences ) and so on.

So what's the point of your post? No PC should be allowed to be sold without Windows? Makes no sense. Yes, Dell is offering a PC with a free OS, to whoever wants it. Great for those who want a free OS.

That it's also bought by pirates hardly takes a rocket scientist to figure out. But I don't see anything remotely ethically questionable about Dells behavior. Not unless you want to ban selling CD/DVD blanks as well...

Kjella

--
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings

Re:Well, doh.. by hoasis69 · 2004-01-27 06:12 · Score: 1

We all know the MS tax is a bunch of monopolistic B.S. PC's should in fact be allowed to be sold with any OS or none at all. Plus, a buyer may already own a legit copy of an OS. Dell is just making sure that they hit every market segment of PC users - from corporations to the gamer to the some OS pirateer in China. I know a LOT of gamers and PC enthusiasts who bought the $274 Dell server deal off coupon sites such as gotapex just because they are stable and great machines. And it takes no time to get up and running. In the past, 'real' PC enthusiasts would build their own machines and not waste time with companies such as Dell. It's a smart biz move by Dell even if it only saves us a couple bucks after the MS tax. I'd rather use the savings for a beer.

Re:You can love your DOS, just don't LOVE your DOS by humankind · 2004-01-26 20:29 · Score: 1

If DOS paid for your helocopter, you'd love it too. ; )

OMFG! Its a SCAM! by msimm · 2004-01-26 20:45 · Score: 1

There's no way in the world anyone would ever actually USE dos. And Microsoft KNOWS it!!

Software audits are coming! Software audits are coming!

:-)

Okay, I'm joking. But seriously aren't there more honest to goodness uses for a Linux PC (if you want a free OS)? I mean dos, isn't that Unix's retarded half cousin? I guess if it would let you play Duke Nukem..

;-)

--
Quack, quack.

Dell Precission 650 with FreeDOS by hany · 2004-01-26 20:49 · Score: 1

I've bought Dell Precission 650 last summer with FreeDOS thus saving about 2'500 SKK (at that time about 60 EUR) thus not buying something I'm not going to use (i.e. Windows XP Professional which was defaul OS choise for that machine).

Comparing that to the price of machine, I saved about 2% but for ussual business (ussual office PC) it may be something above 6%.

2-6% maybe are not that much money, but 2'500 represented about 27% of average income of Slovak citizen at that time so it was (and still is) substantial amout of money for a lot of people here.

--
hany

Celeron is a dud by nniillss · 2004-01-26 21:08 · Score: 1

Check out the benchmarks. A Celeron is much slower than a P4. For most applications, the slowest Athlon you can buy will be faster (and consume less power).

Using FreeDOS to bootstrap a real OS by DrHyde · 2004-01-26 21:51 · Score: 2, Informative

I recently used FreeDOS as a stepping stone to installing Linux. I have a Toshiba Libretto 50CT, and those little bastards have no built in floppy or CD. They *do* have PCMCIA floppy or CD, which are bootable, but only the BIOS recognises them so once the kernel has loaded and run - poof! the device disappears so you can't insert the second disk or load files off the CD or anything else useful.

But because FreeDOS, like MSDOS, uses the BIOS, it *can* read files off floppies, so I created a zip file of a minimal Debian installer plus pkunzip, loadlin and a kernel, used split(1) to break it into floppy-sized chunks, and copied it across like that. Ahhhh, swapping disks 20-odd times! That brings back memories!

Anyway, once all the data was on there and on a little DOS partition, I used loadlin to boot a kernel, load a root disk from a disk image, and then pointed the installer at the files I'd extracted from the recombined zip file.

A (slightly) more detailed account should show up on Linux On Laptops soon.

Why FreeDOS? A dollar or so per copy of WIndows by midgley · 2004-01-26 22:21 · Score: 1

microsoft has a habit of offering a reduction in wholesale cost of Windows to OEMs that agree not to turn out any PCs without an operating system. (I suspect that if they tried to make it specific to Windows on all machiens even the US consumer protection laws would be triggered)

So the value of adding FreeDOS to the package (last time it was, I understand, just a disk included in the box) is that it maintains the discount, and keeps the agreement they made. I'm in favour of keeping agreements, although not necessarily of making that one in the first place on those terms.

So use the FreeDOS, or not.

Add your own version of Linux - most companies would I think, most /. ers whoulc as well, I expect - or pay Dell to install what you want if they have it to hand - probably Red Hat.

This is a good change, and of course allows those of us in countries where it is clearly illegal to try to restrain us from moving an OEM copy of WIndows onto a new piece of hardware to avoid paying another slice of Microsoft tax just to upgrade a WIndows workstation.

Re:I bet a large number of buyers will run MS on t by inf0mike · 2004-01-26 22:40 · Score: 2, Interesting

This will not work for Microsoft Enterprise Licence customers because the "site" licences are in fact upgrades for an OEM pre-installed version of Windows. In other words, if a business were to buy a machine with just FreeDOS on it, they would not be elligible to just install Windows.

According to Microsoft, you are not paying for Windows twice.

Dell recommends Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Profes by lessthan0 · 2004-01-26 23:08 · Score: 1

That is what you see at the top of the Dell Desktop web page. That is hardly distancing itself from Microsoft.

Dell does NOT support Linux, their sales people won't even tell you about N series or that you can get a PC without Windows.

DON'T BUY DELL!!

wikipedia???? by Avihson · 2004-01-27 00:09 · Score: 1

Link direct to the site!

Why use Wikipedia as an authority? That is as bad as using Slashdot! A user modifiable dictionary... Nice idea untill the bored Script kiddie re-writes all of the entries that "offend" him.

Wikipedia is a nice experiment in sociology, but also a great example of revisionism in action! Just look up your favorite political figure for examples. The page revision histories of Bill Clinton and George Bush are lessons in revisionist history!

A constantly changing reference point is no reference at all!

Dirty Play? by maztuhblastah · 2004-01-27 00:35 · Score: 2, Interesting

Although I respect Dell, I think that this may be a way of playing dirty. Picture this:

1)A Major computer vendor makes a contract with MS to sell the majority of their systems with Windows. The more systems they sell with Windows the cheaper the copies of Windows get for the vendor. The cheaper the copies of Windows get, the more money they make.

2)The vendor, one day, decides to try to knock it's Open-Source, non-MS loving customers off of their list of problems. They find the worst open-source distro (of anything) that they can find. Not bad enough not to boot the computer, but bad enough not to be feasible for day to day use.

3)They make a deal with MS that they will be able to sell X number of copies at FULL price in return for some sort of favor. MS oblidges and gives permission to the vendor to sell the non-MS systems.

4)The vendor ships low quality systems with a low quality open-source POS distro. Bill Gates chuckles and gets richer.

5) The customers who buy the systems buy them for the price (incredibly low without Windows.) Then they find that they have no easily workable OS. Since they are not enlightened, they only know of two OS's: Windows and Mac OS. Since Mac OS only runs on a Mac, they decide to get Windows.

6) They go back to the computer vendor complaining that they don't have Windows. The vendor says: "Oh, that's OK, I'll fix that." and sells them a copy of XP or 2k at the normal (non-OEM) price. To ensure repeat business, they give you a $15 discount because you just bought from them.

7) The end result? The customer thinks highly of the vendor (for healping him with his problem and giving him a discount.) The customer is dipleased with open-source software in general (because he is told that the "broken" distro he got is representative of the whole open-source world.) The vendor has killed three birds with one stone. The vendor has a good deal with MS, made more money from the customer, and hurt open-source.

Wow. I hope that if Dell is not already doing that, that they don't read /.

--
The real litigious bastards...

i'll bite. by SubtleNuance · 2004-01-27 00:49 · Score: 2, Funny

Ok, Sivar, what is an ODM? What is this valuable distinction from OEM that us Non-MBAs are missing....?

Re:i'll bite. by Sivar · 2004-01-27 10:22 · Score: 1

ODM stands for oderint dum metuant, which means "Let them hate us, so long as they fear us."

No, just kidding. It stands for Original Design Manufacturer.

And don't call me an MBA!

--
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra

feel like keeping data? by SubtleNuance · 2004-01-27 00:59 · Score: 1

I swear I've never had a simple and Free DOS OS installation actually works as well as FreeDOS! Its very stable. Its kinda terrific! :).

FreeDOS is fine, but what about ReactOS? by Orion+Blastar · 2004-01-27 01:09 · Score: 1

http://www.reactos.com/ ReactOS is a Windows alternative open sourced OS. It tries to be like Windows NT and will be adding Java, OS/2, and DOS subsystems soon.

It might not yet be ready for prime-time, but it is getting there. It can use NT drivers too. If Dell and others support it and contribute to the development, it can be a good alternative to Windows.

--
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.

Not new for many years by nurb432 · 2004-01-27 01:11 · Score: 1

4 years ago years ago I bought a Dell server with RHL, so it's not a new thing.

Still nice to have options though.

Oh, they were offering FD in some European markets at least a year ago, perhaps earlier.

--
---- Booth was a patriot ----

Try comparing the iMac to _this_, then by Moraelin · 2004-01-27 01:43 · Score: 2, Informative

Dimension 4600
Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Professional (not the default "Home Edition")
FREE TurboTax(R) Basic for Tax Year 2003
512MB Dual Channel DDR SDRAM at 333MHz (2x256M)
80GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive (7200 RPM)
3.5 in Floppy Drive
Single Drive: 8x DVD+RW Drive
Combo: RecordNow! and MyDVD Deluxe (DVD+RW only)
Dell(R) Quietkey(R) Keyboard
Dell(R) 2-button scroll mouse
Productivity Pack including WordPerfect(R) and Money(R)
17 in E171FPb Flat Panel Display
128MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Graphics Card with TV-Out and DVI
Integrated 5.1 Channel Audio
Stereo Speakers
Dell Media Experience
Dell Picture Studio, Paint Shop Pro Trial, Photo Album Starter Edition
Integrated Intel(R) PRO 10/100 Ethernet
56K PCI Data Fax Modem

The cost? $1,627

What do we have here? It's a good $272 cheaper than that Mac. Even though it has an 8x DVD burner, as opposed to the Mac's 4x. Also note that the DVD writer software and everything _is_ included in the price.

Even then, the comparison is already skewed. A more exact comparison would be a 2 GHz Celeron machine with el-cheapo SDR RAM. That's still faster than the G4, but not as overkill as the P4.

And still more useful than the Mac. On the PC you can actually play games.

Also note that it involves _no_ assembling stuff on your own.

Do I need to spell it out for you? Yes, the Macs are overpriced. Way overpriced. And for a lot of us, just plain useless either way.

--
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.

Re:Try comparing the iMac to _this_, then by Reziac · 2004-01-27 11:46 · Score: 1

From the first local clone dealer ad I see, for a PC that has the same specs as your Dell example:

Price: $999.

Tho I agree with you about the Mac :)

--
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?

Forget about Dell, buy a Sager with no OS by clickster · 2004-01-27 02:46 · Score: 2, Informative

Sager laptops (which use the same components as Alienware and Voodoo laptops but in different cases) are cheaper than Dells if you're looking for a high-end laptop. Plus, you don't have to pay the Microsoft tax. Don't buy directly from Sager though. Buy from powernotebooks.com or pctorque.com. Both are cheaper than buying directly from Sager and, unlike Sager iteself, both have unbelievably good support (check resellerratings.com). That's one thing that no other PC company can match Powernotebooks and PCTorque on - service. The support people are actual laptop tech, not training room book-fed. They bend over backwards to help you and you get responses immediately. Not canned, pre-typed responses, actual e-mails/phone calls. I bought a Sager 4080. It has a 15" SXGA+ screen that has a glossy/high-contrast coating on it that makes it far clearer than a standard SXGA+ screen. It's hard to make out the individual pixels. It came with a P4 2.8 GHz processor with HT, 800 MHz FSB, 512 MB of PC3200 DDR400, 60 GB 5400 rpm hard drive, 128 MB RADEON 9600, and a built-in webcam. The whole thing only cost me a little over $1500. They also have a 5680 model that supports dual-channel DDR and has a UXGA screen and an 8890 model that supports 2 CD/DVD drives and 2 hard drives at the same time (running RAID). Or swap on of those CD/hard drives out with a 2nd battery. It also has a built-in TV tuner card. And a built-in floppy to boot. Anyway, I used to buy only Dell or Toshiba, but now I'm strictly Sager

--
If you mod me down, I shall become less powerful than you could possibly imagine.

DISTANCING themse;ves???? by DickBreath · 2004-01-27 02:50 · Score: 1

Has anyone considered that Dell may be doing this as a FAVOR to Microsoft?

Now, when my local Microsoft Zealot(tm) and I are debating, he can point out that Dell does offer a choice of operating systems, and Microsoft does not have a stranglehold.

--

I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.

Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA, BREATHING THINKS ABOUT YOU. by Zeriel · 2004-01-27 03:47 · Score: 0, Troll

YOU MUST MANUALLY BREATH! If you don't you will DIE.

Actually, you'll just pass out. Not die.

--
"America has done some terrible things. But I know that Americans don't cheer when innocents die." -Dave Barry

A word of caution by bmasephol · 2004-01-27 03:57 · Score: 1

I purchased one of these N series systems from Dell because we had an available copy of windows at the office I was working in. The box show'd up with no drivers of any type packaged along with it. If you plan on putting windows on the system... make sure you have another system available with a cdr or zip or winrar + lots of floppies.

The court ruled otherwise by Opiuman · 2004-01-27 04:21 · Score: 1

Well the court ruled otherwise. Ethical or not, it is a breach of anti-trust laws.
Besides they had other draconian licensing terms such as prohibiting OEMs from bundling Windows in a PC which dual-boots another OS (see the BeOS vs. Microsoft case).

Re:The court ruled otherwise by Brandybuck · 2004-01-27 08:33 · Score: 1

Sometimes the courts are wrong. Shocking but true. While the courts have the ultimate authority in interpreting the law, they are completely silent as to whether the law is good.

No contract term is "draconian" if both parties enter into it willingly and without duress, regardless of the monopoly status of the parties. Was Microsoft "dumping" Windows with extreme discounts to Microsoft-exclusive OEM's? If so it would be problematic, but the courts didn't address this. Did Microsoft refuse to negotiate with OEM's who used other operating systems? Again, that would be a problem, but the issue wasn't brought up. The court ruled in essence "no exclusive contracts", without considering the discounts offered or the avenues for renegotiation.

If Microsoft had a standard contract offered to all OEM's under "take it or leave it" terms, then that would have been an abuse of their monopoly status. But the courts didn't address this (or if they did, the media didn't report it).

Since Dell was/is one of Microsoft's largest customers, it had the clout to renegotiate its distribution contract. All they had to do was say "boo" and Microsoft would have jumped.

--
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!

You didn't do your homework.... by thedbp · 2004-01-27 05:19 · Score: 1

Also note that the DVD writer software and everything _is_ included in the price.

So is the Macs.

A more exact comparison would be a 2 GHz Celeron machine with el-cheapo SDR RAM. That's still faster than the G4, but not as overkill as the P4.

Completely false. The G4 in the iMac is a far superior chip to the Celeron, and is on par with the P4 in some respects and much better in others,/a>

Plus, the iMac has the same type of RAM, its not SDRAM. You should read more closely.

Tax software also comes with the Mac, and there is no difference between the Pro and Home computer's OS - its identical because Mac OS X is completely scalable for anyone's individual needs.

Plus the Mac has 2 FireWire, 3 USB 2.0, TV out as well, MUCH smaller footprint, is silent, higher-quality audio input and output, PLENTY of games available (I already linked to a crapload of games in another post, so I won't bother here - you're obvioulsy stuck in 1996), iLife software built in (Please - tell me what's equiavalent to GarageBand for PCs - and is free with any new PC).

And when did I say that all PCs were cheaper? Never. I was more taking a shot at Element for their highly overpriced PCs that should be much cheaper because they DON'T pay the MS Tax.

Also note that it involves _no_ assembling stuff on your own.

This should go without saying.

Macs also come WITHOUT spyware, which I would consider worth a ton of money. And without the ability to get the horrendous viruses that plague Windows. See, even though the hardware may seem overpriced to you, the SOFTWARE is what REALLY differentiates Macs, you PC people can't seem to realize that. My time is worth so much more than having to spend it reinstalling Windows every 6 months due to the fact its performance degrades exponentially over time without any sort of user intervention, having to religiously update Virus definitions, fret over e-mail attachments, rebuilding the whole system every time a virus takes it down.

Again, it seems you saved a few bucks, but your personal time is absolutely worthless. Sorry to hear that.

Re:You didn't do your homework.... by Moraelin · 2004-01-27 05:51 · Score: 1

"Plus, the iMac has the same type of RAM, its not SDRAM. You should read more closely."
Heh. Right. DDR RAM on an 133 MHz SDR memory bus. Do you even realize the absurdity of that? Or are you one of those "the mac is good for non-technical people like me" people? ;) No, the memory bandwidth that the G4 sees _is_ perfectly on par with a PC with 133 MHz SDR RAM.
"And when did I say that all PCs were cheaper? Never. I was more taking a shot at Element for their highly overpriced PCs that should be much cheaper because they DON'T pay the MS Tax."
Right. In other words, you had to search far and wide to find a PC that's worse overpriced than Macs are. In a thread that was _not_ about Macs to start with.
And wait, it wasn't a Dell either. Presumably since Dells are cheaper even _with_ the MS Tax. Although this thread is about _Dell_.
So you had to go off-topic on every possible count, just to spew your piece of fanboy propaganda. You just _had_ to do your piece of tail wagging to your corporate idols.
You know... actually I _don't_ hate Macs, nor Apple. I've used about 6 different computer architectures, and about two dozen OSs. The Mac or the PC are just another in the list. I have friends who use macs. Good for them.
What I actually do hate is: you. The Mac fanboys. The Jehovah's Witnesses of the computing world. The religious squad who just _have_ to take a completely unrelated topic, and drown all useful signal in "nooo! buy a mac instead!" and "but Macs aren't overpriced" _noise_. No matter how fundamentally off-topic you have to drag it all.

--
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Re:You didn't do your homework.... by thedbp · 2004-02-02 14:56 · Score: 1

Never once did I say "Buy A Mac Instead" or "macs aren't overpriced."

All I did was compare a Linux PC's price to what most people consider to be an already over priced machine for perspective.

It seems that you are the zealot here - rabidly defending a system I didn't bring up in a context I didn't create. You're the type of person that has a few beers at a bar, picks a fight, and winds up getting your sorry ass kicked in the back alley, all the while screaming "I'm gonna get you back, man!" when all you had to do was not mouth off to begin with.

So please, piss off. I didn't come here to insult your platform, screwhead - all I did was point out something I thought was interesting, namely that a Linux based PC was more expensive than a comparable Mac - a fact which surprised me, because i KNOW Macs are priced above what most PCs are priced at. Whether or not I feel they are worth it never entered into it. It simply struck me as interesting that a PC without the MS tax was more expensive than a Mac. Plain and simple.

Is this post offtopic? Sure. But so was the post I responded to about Element computers. Anyway, the short n curly of it is, you're misinformed about a great many things, you misinterpreted my post, and you'll go through life as one of those people that others generally only "put up with." Cheers, you primitive screwhead, the Guinness is on me.

Re:IMO, This is great - FreeDOS is not DOS 3.3 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-27 06:27 · Score: 0

I would say "FreeDOS is DOS 5.0 with some
extras (FAT32 for example) and some problems
(bad EMM386, no DOSSHELL, no compressed disks,
no INTERLNK...)". EMM386 is being worked at.

So it is more than a mediocre DOS 3.3 clone...
but you may want to wait for Beta 9 rc 4 to see.

I myself recommend using UMBPCI as UMB driver and
not using any EMM386 at all. Works well for all my
old DOS games, CadKey light 7 (very old but is now
freeware), ... and I have lots of DOS RAM free.

In Europe you can often buy PCs for 300 Euros
(roughly: same as USD) without operating system.
One shop in my city offers to install Knoppix or
Debian on the harddisk at no extra cost. Some
other shop ships PCs with IBM DOS. Basically they
are all scared to sell PCs without OS (MS thinks
this causes more Windows stealing), so they sell
them with ANY OS. They do not think you NEED DOS.

Needless to say that many people just buy a PC
at some department store or supermarket for 1000
bucks just because nobody told them that this is
3 times too fast even for video timeshifting yet.

Coolness is stronger than intelligence there, and
the people who buy such PCs often even fail to do
Windowsupdate and get Blaster/LovSan next day...
(You cannot easily update BEFORE selling, because
you have to REGISTER WinXP first. Arghhh...)

Re:IMO, This is great - FreeDOS is not DOS 3.3 by Pharmboy · 2004-01-27 07:08 · Score: 1

I would say "FreeDOS is DOS 5.0

According to FreeDOS, its a 3.3 clone. Not my opinion, but their goal. It may have a few extra features not found in 3.3, but its a well stated goal by the actual authors.

I don't mean to rag when I call it mediocre, its just, well, it is. I have recently installed it on a fresh 1.6gb drive on my test computer (all HD are in trays, swap in and out, 12 different OSs) and it did not want to run alot of programs. I also have a windows 3.1/dos 6.22 drive to compare with.

You are correct that you have to compensate with emm386 to get it to work right, if you can at all. This is the primary reason I call it mediocre. It does fine with 8 bit stuff, but barfs on lots of 16bit stuff that needs upper memory. I mean, its a good attempt, but after testing it, I would not put it in production where I needed DOS. This is what I was testing it for. Its just not ready for prime time, and unfortunately, even DOS 6.22 is well past its prime.

--
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!

Plan 9 by teeth · 2004-01-27 16:12 · Score: 1

Go with Glenda!

--
>>>>truth; beauty; unix.<<<<

It is fluff by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-28 01:22 · Score: 0

To date Dell hasn't been too serious, and I followed the link and didn't see any systems without Winodows.

This must be an advert.

It has nothing to do with being a rebel by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-29 01:44 · Score: 0

It has nothing to do with leaving MS. It has to do with price. It is illeagal for them to seel the PC with NO OS at all. Buy putting in a free one, they can sell it, can cut the cost of the windows liscense. Thus making people thing they are getting a good deal for a piece of junk.

MOst companys have corp editions of windows and don't need to be buying it preinstalled in a system.

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