I manage the K12OSN (K12OpenSourceNow) list hosted by RedHat.com. None of our Comcast members are receiving posts. So the best answer seems to be, keep on paying for your connection but don't use their service.
Rhapsody (limited free service to comcast members) however is a GREAT product. I'll keep paying my $42/month.
Our high school switched to Linux 3 years ago. We're using K12LTSP for 110 desktops throughout our school. I asked students who had been using Linux for the last three years what they thought about it. Here's a video of what they said. Just click on the "What the kids say..." link.
Motto of K12LTSP: It works. It's free. Duh... Guess which part is hard to explain.;-)
Have you tried to load Fedora Core x or RHEL on a ThinkPad G40? It would be nice if the onboard NIC worked with the supplied driver. Not so... You have to complie a driver from Broadcom.
So I guess we have define what we mean by supported.;-)
Using expensive traditional PCs in classrooms just does not work. Using LTSP based thin-clients does. K12LTSP.org is the answer to the cost issues raised in this article.
Wikibooks.org is a new project that could save millions. Can you say open source textbooks?;-)
Finally, there are valid points on how PCs are used in the classroom. After 22 years of teaching, here's what I think about it.
Dell, Gateway, IBM - Schools can't buy from them..
on
Maine School & Linux
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· Score: 4, Informative
This school probably had to build their own PCs as you can't buy a Linux based PC for schools today. PLEASE tell me I'm wrong but if so it won't be because IMB, Dell or Gateway will do it. Walmart is now the leading option. Does anyone else think this strange?
When will large vendors realize that there is a market in K12 for Linux? EVERY install I see is the result of one or two hard working teachers, often supported by local LUGs working to save $$$ and provide technology to classrooms.
It's great to see this but these teachers are the exception not the norm.
In the past many people, teachers included, considered educational software to be flashy games and skill & drill programs running on PC's. While these PC-Tutor like programs may be fine for some students we have found that the role of the computer in the classroom is changing. Today's technically literate students use PC's in the same ways adults use them in the workplace and in college.
There are four main uses that we have identified:
Collaboration - Our students use PC's for e-mail, sharing files to complete group projects, passing on links to web sites and articles from on-line databases. It's not uncommon to have two or three students working together with one serving as the "record keeper" keeping track of information which is later saved and shared electronically with the other group members. Isn't this the way you work as an adult? For our students, their/home folder becomes a virtual notebook where they organize their important stuff and the/public share becomes a means of exchange.
Our students were quick to incorporate a networked environment into their day to day school life. They use it to get their work done and have found many ingenious social adaptations as well. As tools for collaboration, networked PC's are changing the classroom in the same ways they have changed the workplace.
Communication - The most used applications in our classrooms are not the flashy, multimedia based, tutorial programs that you see in the educational sections of software stores. When our students are working they use the same programs the rest of the world uses, word processing, e-mail, spreadsheets and presentation software. There is little room for the computer as tutor concept in today's busy classroom.
Presentation software packages like PowerPoint and OO Impress are easily incorporated into networked classrooms. Teachers can use presentation software to add multimedia content to lessons. Students use these software tools as "virtual poster boards" for class reports. Some things just don't change and telling everyone what you know is still a big part of learning. Creating the presentation is still what brings it all together for many students.
Desktop publishing is an important use of PC's in today's schools. From one page flyers to student run newspapers, PC's make it happen. This is an area where computer use has acted as an equalizer in that everyone can now publish their ideas.
Analysis - Here's an area where computers have changed education (or should...). With spreadsheets and graphing tools now on every PC, students have the power to ask and answer "what if" questions and to make ready comparisons of data. Anyone who has used a spreadsheet to investigate something as simple as the costs of a trip to Disneyland will understand how useful these tools are in the classroom. Examples of good programming exist in things like the chart wizard in Excel and OO Calc. Preview buttons and updated wysiwyg windows make it easy for students to interact with the software and make choices. They may be using a wizard but they are still in control of what's going on.
Creativity - Some of our most empowered users of technology are art and music students. Our art teachers were quick to see the potential in computers. PC's are seen as creative tools by our students after taking PC art classes where before they were only seen as productivity tools.
When MS was sending out audit letters to schools in OR and WA the first phone call I got was from Red Hat to see if they could help. When Eric H. was having trouble hacking RH's install code to modify their distribution to make it easier for schools he called RH and got all the help he needed. I'd like to see what would happen with a call like that to Redmond! RH has helped send us to conferences and provides free support to schools using Linux.
Time will tell if other distributions will be as well managed and forward thinking but for now I don't think we should slam RH because they got off to a good start and hired some smart people. They are working hard to produce free software for us and just happen to be doing it very well.
At K12LTSP.org we base our distribution for schools on RH for all of the above and the fact that over time, it's been one of the easiest and most stable versions of Linux for us to use in schools. They have been 100% supportive of us hacking their distribution and redistributing it to schools. That's about as far from Redmond as you can get. There are some good folks there in NC! Let's give some credit where credit is due.
I'd suggest that you learn more about k12ltsp. The whole point is that it turns old hardware into usable thin-clients.
I mentioned the hardware for the server because I wanted folks to see that we were using common hardware available almost anywhere. We use all kinds of hardware for our clients.
As for seeing what works in one classroom, well again I would invite you to visit k12ltsp.org. We have lots of clients up in our clasrooms, library and even on the superintendent's desk. I am able to manage servers from home or from any of my schools because I can secure shell in and do updates or even reboot. I don't have to do that often though. Our average up time is about 6 months for servers. That's not uncommon at all for Linux boxes. I don't even have to sit down at the computer to work on it. Yes, this is a great solution for over worked and under staffed IT departments to use in multiple buildings K-12. That's exactly what I do. We use Linux in schools all over the county. The county lan/wan guy manages over 60 servers right from his desktop. He doesn't have an IT department. He's just one guy.
Your school board member is correct to question your rejection of donated hardware. If we can't use we recycle it. See the STRUT.org site for more info on that. Again, if you look at the k12ltsp.org site you would find that link too. You are missing out on a solution that can stretch your IT $$$.
As for different video cards, yes that can be a real pain. That's why LTSP 3.0 auto configures the client based on a PCI scan to find the video card. It's pretty cool! It does it all on the fly.
I spent three hours this week trying to get an NT2000 machine to work with a Riva TNT video card. This is a very common card but the MS drivers only gave me the BSOD. I ended up searching google groups and found that MANY other users had the exactly same problem. Had this been OpenSource software the problem would have been fixed. As it was I had to ferret my way through many suggestions to find one that would work. The same machine configures perfectly with Red Hat Linux.
Kids and software are another can of worms.
We use Macs in K-3 classrooms. They work well and we get them free now from the STRUT program. The PPC machines we get seem to do just fine with the kids software. We don't use a lot though. There are many things young kids need to do in K-3 and I'm not sure that using a PC is real high on the list. Studies of kids using drill and kill software have shown only mixed results at best. If you're interested in reading more about thoughts on kids using pc's head for http://www.k12ltsp.org/educational_software.html
I would encourage you to do some more research before rejecting out of hand a solution that schools all over the world are discovering.
It only takes 20 minutes from power on to install K12ltsp and have a working terminal server. Feel free to download the install CD's from one of the ftp sites. You might give it a try after the newest release comes out in January.
Rather than a toss-off line, I think doing something about it is much better than not knowing about good solutions and not being open to trying them out. Next time someone gives you some old PC's see if you can use them. It's better for the environment, your students and your budget all at the same time.
John, I understand the what and they why of your comment but you are wrong.
Donated equipment can be well used by schools to provide reliable access to technolgy. I think you should come and visit our 4th grade classroom via this link: http://www.k12ltsp.org/classroom.html
We faced the same problems you addressed but we did something about it and it's working.;-)
Bottom Line... We use Linux in our schools because it works well for what we need to do. It's free and support from the Linux community is the best. We're always happy to answer questions.;-) Paul
Keeping up with software purchases is a nightmare for our schools. It's not just what we buy, it's everything the teachers and kids install too.
Using thin-clients with K12LTSP (K12LTSP.org) is a more viable solution.
Microsoft does give schools a break when buying software but free is much better!;-)
k12linux.org was taken one week before we thought of that.:-( It expires on July 16. Perhaps the current owner will let us take it over...
What we really need a name for is our distribution. K12ltsp just doesn't cut it.;-)
Slashdot Mirror
I manage the K12OSN (K12OpenSourceNow) list hosted by RedHat.com. None of our Comcast members are receiving posts. So the best answer seems to be, keep on paying for your connection but don't use their service.
Rhapsody (limited free service to comcast members) however is a GREAT product. I'll keep paying my $42/month.
Our high school switched to Linux 3 years ago. We're using K12LTSP for 110 desktops throughout our school. I asked students who had been using Linux for the last three years what they thought about it. Here's a video of what they said. Just click on the "What the kids say..." link.
;-)
Motto of K12LTSP: It works. It's free. Duh... Guess which part is hard to explain.
So maybe they understand duh... -- K12LTSP.org
K12LTSP.org
Here'a a digital photo course using the GIMP published under the Creative Commons license. You might find it interesting.
Have you tried to load Fedora Core x or RHEL on a ThinkPad G40? It would be nice if the onboard NIC worked with the supplied driver. Not so... You have to complie a driver from Broadcom.
;-)
So I guess we have define what we mean by supported.
Using expensive traditional PCs in classrooms just does not work. Using LTSP based thin-clients does. K12LTSP.org is the answer to the cost issues raised in this article.
;-)
Wikibooks.org is a new project that could save millions. Can you say open source textbooks?
Finally, there are valid points on how PCs are used in the classroom. After 22 years of teaching, here's what I think about it.
We had to build our own as do most schools using Linux. http://k12ltsp.org/rhs_casestudy.html
When will large vendors realize that there is a market in K12 for Linux? EVERY install I see is the result of one or two hard working teachers, often supported by local LUGs working to save $$$ and provide technology to classrooms.
It's great to see this but these teachers are the exception not the norm.
There are four main uses that we have identified:
- Collaboration - Our students use PC's for e-mail, sharing files to complete group projects, passing on links to web sites and articles from on-line databases. It's not uncommon to have two or three students working together with one serving as the "record keeper" keeping track of information which is later saved and shared electronically with the other group members. Isn't this the way you work as an adult? For our students, their
/home folder becomes a virtual notebook where they organize their important stuff and the /public share becomes a means of exchange.
- Communication - The most used applications in our classrooms are not the flashy, multimedia based, tutorial programs that you see in the educational sections of software stores. When our students are working they use the same programs the rest of the world uses, word processing, e-mail, spreadsheets and presentation software. There is little room for the computer as tutor concept in today's busy classroom.
- Analysis - Here's an area where computers have changed education (or should...). With spreadsheets and graphing tools now on every PC, students have the power to ask and answer "what if" questions and to make ready comparisons of data. Anyone who has used a spreadsheet to investigate something as simple as the costs of a trip to Disneyland will understand how useful these tools are in the classroom. Examples of good programming exist in things like the chart wizard in Excel and OO Calc. Preview buttons and updated wysiwyg windows make it easy for students to interact with the software and make choices. They may be using a wizard but they are still in control of what's going on.
- Creativity - Some of our most empowered users of technology are art and music students. Our art teachers were quick to see the potential in computers. PC's are seen as creative tools by our students after taking PC art classes where before they were only seen as productivity tools.
-- K12LTSP.orgOur students were quick to incorporate a networked environment into their day to day school life. They use it to get their work done and have found many ingenious social adaptations as well. As tools for collaboration, networked PC's are changing the classroom in the same ways they have changed the workplace.
Presentation software packages like PowerPoint and OO Impress are easily incorporated into networked classrooms. Teachers can use presentation software to add multimedia content to lessons. Students use these software tools as "virtual poster boards" for class reports. Some things just don't change and telling everyone what you know is still a big part of learning. Creating the presentation is still what brings it all together for many students.
Desktop publishing is an important use of PC's in today's schools. From one page flyers to student run newspapers, PC's make it happen. This is an area where computer use has acted as an equalizer in that everyone can now publish their ideas.
Time will tell if other distributions will be as well managed and forward thinking but for now I don't think we should slam RH because they got off to a good start and hired some smart people. They are working hard to produce free software for us and just happen to be doing it very well.
At K12LTSP.org we base our distribution for schools on RH for all of the above and the fact that over time, it's been one of the easiest and most stable versions of Linux for us to use in schools. They have been 100% supportive of us hacking their distribution and redistributing it to schools. That's about as far from Redmond as you can get. There are some good folks there in NC! Let's give some credit where credit is due.
Didn't I read here on /. that a consultant sold someone an entire class A range of IP numbers for their business... starting with 10.x.x.x ? ;-^)
Hi John,
I'd suggest that you learn more about k12ltsp. The whole point is that it turns old hardware into usable thin-clients.
I mentioned the hardware for the server because I wanted folks to see that we were using common hardware available almost anywhere. We use all kinds of hardware for our clients.
As for seeing what works in one classroom, well again I would invite you to visit k12ltsp.org. We have lots of clients up in our clasrooms, library and even on the superintendent's desk. I am able to manage servers from home or from any of my schools because I can secure shell in and do updates or even reboot. I don't have to do that often though. Our average up time is about 6 months for servers. That's not uncommon at all for Linux boxes. I don't even have to sit down at the computer to work on it. Yes, this is a great solution for over worked and under staffed IT departments to use in multiple buildings K-12. That's exactly what I do. We use Linux in schools all over the county. The county lan/wan guy manages over 60 servers right from his desktop. He doesn't have an IT department. He's just one guy.
Your school board member is correct to question your rejection of donated hardware. If we can't use we recycle it. See the STRUT.org site for more info on that. Again, if you look at the k12ltsp.org site you would find that link too. You are missing out on a solution that can stretch your IT $$$.
As for different video cards, yes that can be a real pain. That's why LTSP 3.0 auto configures the client based on a PCI scan to find the video card. It's pretty cool! It does it all on the fly.
I spent three hours this week trying to get an NT2000 machine to work with a Riva TNT video card. This is a very common card but the MS drivers only gave me the BSOD. I ended up searching google groups and found that MANY other users had the exactly same problem. Had this been OpenSource software the problem would have been fixed. As it was I had to ferret my way through many suggestions to find one that would work. The same machine configures perfectly with Red Hat Linux.
Kids and software are another can of worms.
We use Macs in K-3 classrooms. They work well and we get them free now from the STRUT program. The PPC machines we get seem to do just fine with the kids software. We don't use a lot though. There are many things young kids need to do in K-3 and I'm not sure that using a PC is real high on the list. Studies of kids using drill and kill software have shown only mixed results at best. If you're interested in reading more about thoughts on kids using pc's head for http://www.k12ltsp.org/educational_software.html
I would encourage you to do some more research before rejecting out of hand a solution that schools all over the world are discovering.
It only takes 20 minutes from power on to install K12ltsp and have a working terminal server. Feel free to download the install CD's from one of the ftp sites. You might give it a try after the newest release comes out in January.
Rather than a toss-off line, I think doing something about it is much better than not knowing about good solutions and not being open to trying them out. Next time someone gives you some old PC's see if you can use them. It's better for the environment, your students and your budget all at the same time.
John, I understand the what and they why of your comment but you are wrong.
Donated equipment can be well used by schools to provide reliable access to technolgy. I think you should come and visit our 4th grade classroom via this link: http://www.k12ltsp.org/classroom.html
We faced the same problems you addressed but we did something about it and it's working. ;-)
It works, it's fast, it's free, we like it.
It's great when we see articles on Linux in Schools but I wish they would at least get the links right:
http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/index.html >> Main Linux in Schools project site, links on using Linux as a server for schools. Many examples and how-to's.
http://www.k12ltsp.org/ >> K12 Linux Terminal Server Project - 20 minute install, RH7.1 based terminal server with links to $200 clients. Very cool!
http://www.ofset.org/ >> Free Software in Education and Teaching - Some good work with software for schools happening here...
http://www.k12ltsp.org/educational_software.html >> Thoughts on educational software...
Bottom Line... We use Linux in our schools because it works well for what we need to do. It's free and support from the Linux community is the best. We're always happy to answer questions. ;-) Paul
Keeping up with software purchases is a nightmare for our schools. It's not just what we buy, it's everything the teachers and kids install too. Using thin-clients with K12LTSP (K12LTSP.org) is a more viable solution. Microsoft does give schools a break when buying software but free is much better! ;-)
k12linux.org was taken one week before we thought of that. :-( It expires on July 16. Perhaps the current owner will let us take it over...
What we really need a name for is our distribution. K12ltsp just doesn't cut it. ;-)