Hawaii Puts Old Computers To Work in Linux Labs

Wait a Second by rhsanborn · 2004-09-19 00:04 · Score: 5, Interesting

You mean someone realized that they could get a comprehensive solution for extremely little money by NOT buying windows? What a concept. I really hope more schools get Linux labs, even if they already have MS systems. I like the idea of kids getting their hands on something other than MS.

Re:Wait a Second by Randy+Wang · 2004-09-19 00:14 · Score: 5, Funny

Hey, imagine a Beow- oh, never mind.

I, too, think it's great that they're setting up Linux labs and it's costing them next-to-nothing, but I don't actually think that's the really important thing, here. While it's great that the kids are being given the chance to sample non-MS software, the money that isn't being spent on software is being spent elsewhere, improving education there within the same budget.

So, save money on computers, you can afford to pay teachers just a little more, new textbooks can be purchased, and so on. There's a much larger effect than just the adoption of open-source, you know.

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--- Egads, I glow in the dark!
Re:Wait a Second by rhsanborn · 2004-09-19 00:17 · Score: 1

I'd be happy if they were Mac labs even, just something other than MS. Kids need to be non-polarized. Now, as for where the money will go...we'll see about that. Its been my experience that schools generally aren't good at spending money in the right places.
Re:Wait a Second by Zorilla · 2004-09-19 01:02 · Score: 2, Interesting

Trust me, in school, we had enough of Macs. It's all most schools had in CA if you were lucky enough to have those instead of Apple // computers. Where students could have been learning real skills for future workplaces which most likely use PCs instead of screwing around with Hypercard. Not that intuitive learning on computers was ever encouraged anyway; nobody dared getting ahead of the instructor when they were teaching.

--

It would be cool if it didn't suck.
Re:Wait a Second by PhoenixFlare · 2004-09-19 01:51 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'd be happy if they were Mac labs even, just something other than MS. Kids need to be non-polarized.

No, you just want them to be polarized towards something other than MS. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but don't kid yourself.
Re:Wait a Second by Tim+Doran · 2004-09-19 02:53 · Score: 1

...as long as it's implemented properly. I'm thinking diskless workstations booting off a server, locked down so the students have minimal opportunity to disrupt them.

Even minor issues with the lab could represent a major support hassle for the school and could wind up harming Linux's reputation.
Re:Wait a Second by luky · 2004-09-19 02:54 · Score: 1

While the school has a lab with Macintosh computers that the students have used to win national Web design contests, there weren't enough computers for all grades to have access year-round.
Sounds pretty cool to me... luky
Re:Wait a Second by ArtDent · 2004-09-19 04:39 · Score: 3, Interesting

TFA gave the impression that that's how they're doing it:
He said that these labs increase the life of a computer by a few years, because 8-year-old computers can run software just as quickly as newer ones using the open source servers. "Things don't get old as fast," he said.

I found this article really inspiring. I'd really love work on something like that around here (Toronto, Canada). Does anyone know if anyone is working on this kind of project?
Re:Wait a Second by rhsanborn · 2004-09-19 06:44 · Score: 1

Hardly, they can and do get MS everywhere, a little diversity shows them that there are other ways to do things.
Re:Wait a Second by Citizen+of+Earth · 2004-09-19 07:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

You mean someone realized that they could get a comprehensive solution for extremely little money by NOT buying windows?

What they should have done is phone up Microsoft and say that they were going to upgrade to a Linux lab for $3,000 instead of the conventional $30,000 and they were going to tell the media about it. Bill Gates would have flown in personally to cut them a "charitable donation" cheque for $31,000 on the condition they go the conventional route. Net profit: $1,000. Staying with Windows is cheaper if you play the game right.
Re:Wait a Second by TeknoHog · 2004-09-19 07:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

No, you just want them to be polarized towards something other than MS. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but don't kid yourself.
I disagree. I'm a teacher in a mixed Linux/Windows based school. All students learn to use both system for basic tasks like word processing and file management. The ultimate idea is to teach them generally about computers so they are better prepared for whatever new systems they might encounter later.

--
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
Re:Wait a Second by AvantLegion · 2004-09-19 08:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

>> I like the idea of kids getting their hands on something other than MS.
And that's it. Personally, I don't subscribe to the idea of Linux being superior to everything else. But the idea is to break the "Windows OS is the only OS" notion.
I remember years ago, when people weren't so tied to "Microsoft this" and "Microsoft that". MS stuff was just one option - often a very good option, but not the sole option.
That's what we need back.
Re:Wait a Second by PhoenixFlare · 2004-09-19 10:30 · Score: 1

The ultimate idea is to teach them generally about computers so they are better prepared for whatever new systems they might encounter later.

I agree with that attitude 100% - I was commenting to that specific poster, not the whole community. Far better to do things that way, than to go on about how MS is blinding kids to alternatives...And then turn around and have your solution be to exclusively use something else, as long as it's not MS.
Re:Wait a Second by PhoenixFlare · 2004-09-19 10:35 · Score: 1

If you truly think that way, then good for you. Sadly, the advocates that just want to make Linux (or Mac) the One OS instead of Windows seem to be the most vocal, at least in a lot of public discussion i've seen.
Re:Wait a Second by Fjornir · 2004-09-19 10:47 · Score: 3, Interesting

I found this article really inspiring. I'd really love work on something like that around here...
I, too, would love to see this in my local schools. I think the way to make that happen is a variation on the old "Think globally. Act locally." ideal in that we need to act at both ends of the spectrum. It's awesome that you jumped right to finding something local to act on, but remember that a failure in Hawaii will make a local adoption less likely. So, in addition to your local efforts, here are two thoughts thoughts on global action which would help smooth local adoption.
Send a few dollars to the Hawaii Open Source Education Foundation, and it doesn't have to be a lot. $10 would help defray printing costs of handouts and cheat sheets for teachers and students. $20 is a significant portion of the cost of a flight between islands. $100 would help replace a blown monitor.
Contribute time to the projects these guys are using! And by that I don't mean join the mailinglist and get involved in all of the latest flamewars. I mean do some real work: bug-hunt in the areas students, educators, and administrators are likely to find problems in. Propose solutions to non-bug problem areas, and help to revise ideas with other peoples proposals. Write some test scripts. Write some code....
Peace, Love, Linux
Chris

--
I want a new world. I think this one is broken.
Re:Wait a Second by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 16:44 · Score: 0

This assumes, of course, that the motive behind the schools is to make money; it probably is not. In my classroom, I am trying to get a Linux lab installed similar to that described in the article. Most of the work being done is by my students as an act of selfless devotion to the craft of computer engineering.
No, really. I am serious.
They come in on their own time to play around with an operating system that they can mess around with, take apart, and put back together without damaging anything. They understand the principals of network administration, security, hardware/software incompatability issues, etc., while 10th graders. There is no class, there is no profit, and there certainly is not the desire to make a net profit.
Re:Wait a Second by wwwillem · 2004-09-19 17:26 · Score: 1

Bill Gates would have flown in personally to cut them a "charitable donation" cheque for $31,000 on the condition they go the conventional route.

That's not how Microsoft normally plays the game. If you play hardball with them, you can even get $60,000 .... however, all in vouchers for Microsoft software. Little problem is that all that stuff doesn't run well on 8 year old hardware. So, you have to buy new computers, which will quickly drain that "$1,000 net profit". Or was that by now $30,000 profit :-), still it's quickly gone when buying new hardware for a whole school.

--
Browsers shouldn't have a back button!! It's all about going forward...
Re:Wait a Second by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 21:10 · Score: 0

Hey, imagine a Beow- oh, never mind.

oh shutup with the beow shit.
Re:Wait a Second by Tim+Doran · 2004-09-20 01:31 · Score: 1

ArtDent - this article got me thinking in the same vein. I actually sent an email to Reboot Canada (www.reboot.on.ca) asking if they needed volunteers.

Take a look at their website - their main chapter is based in Toronto and I think it's just the sort of thing you're looking for.

Nice precident in this by tjlsmith · 2004-09-19 00:05 · Score: 5, Interesting

As the UoH basically invented computer communications by using a discarded satellite to create the ALOHA system, the basic mathematics of which govern Ethernet and the Internet.

--
Mumia Abu-Jamal is *laughably guilty*. Check the evidence.

Re:Nice precident in this by HoneyBunchesOfGoats · 2004-09-19 00:13 · Score: 5, Informative

At first I thought this was some kind of joke or something (the ALOHA system? in Hawaii?), but it turns out the above poster is actually right. http://www.laynetworks.com/ALOHA%20PROTOCOL.htm
Re:Nice precident in this by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 00:45 · Score: 0

As any Computer Science student would know!
Re:Nice precident in this by tjlsmith · 2004-09-19 00:49 · Score: 1

I Thank you for the confirmation. And so does James Martin, whose book "Communication Satellite Systems" ISBN 0-13-153168-8 taught me about it.

--
Mumia Abu-Jamal is *laughably guilty*. Check the evidence.
Re:Nice precident in this by zhenlin · 2004-09-19 01:58 · Score: 3, Interesting

And the Wikipedia entry, to further demonstrate:
ALOHAnet
Re:Nice precident in this by cynic10508 · 2004-09-19 04:46 · Score: 2, Informative

At first I thought this was some kind of joke or something (the ALOHA system? in Hawaii?), but it turns out the above poster is actually right. http://www.laynetworks.com/ALOHA%20PROTOCOL.htm

Well, yeah. They had to develop ALOHA after OUTRIGGER proved to be too unreliable.
Re:Nice precident in this by cynic10508 · 2004-09-19 04:49 · Score: 1

And the Wikipedia entry, to further demonstrate: ALOHAnet

Ah, yes. "Wiki"ing ALOHAnet. Makes me feel like I'm back on Waikiki as haole try to ride the breakers (although we all know that the North Shore has the best breakers, just ask Jack Johnson).

not terribly surprising... by Daniel+Ellard · 2004-09-19 00:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

When you compare "commercial off-the shelf" prices for computers and software with prices of "recycled" computers and free software, of course you're going to see a big difference.

A more interesting question is total cost of ownership; i.e. how much money this really saves over the long run (factoring in things like the fact that the PTA is probably giving the schools grief because the students are learning Office or similar skills that will help them get jobs... believe me, this happens). I'm sure someone has opinions (and hopefully data) related to that.

An even more interesting questions is why our schools aren't adequately funded...

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Disclaimer: I work for a company, but I don't speak for them.

Re:not terribly surprising... by essence · 2004-09-19 00:19 · Score: 4, Insightful

An even more interesting questions is why our schools aren't adequately funded...

Maybe because most politicians are owned by corporates. And they only want the upper classes to get good education through private schools - therefore cut funding to public education.

oh, and maybe if so much money wasn't spent on the military and prison systems, there would be plenty left for schools (and hospitals).
Re:not terribly surprising... by Tim+C · 2004-09-19 00:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'd be surprised if it was some sort of upper class conspiracy; that would require a degree of organisation and collusion that I have a hard time believing.

Now, as for spending too much money on other stuff, I think you may be right there...

--
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Re:not terribly surprising... by Gentlewhisper · 2004-09-19 00:30 · Score: 1, Troll

'A more interesting question is total cost of ownership; i.e. how much money this really saves over the long run (factoring in things like the fact that the PTA is probably giving the schools grief because the students are learning Office or similar skills that will help them get jobs... believe me, this happens). I'm sure someone has opinions (and hopefully data) related to that. '

That is crap and you know it. I don't see why someone exposed to a REAL OS like linux would have trouble adapting to Windows in the future.

Besides, the future of IT is Linux. Who gives a shit about Office?

In college everyone is trying to pick up that extra *NIX skills in hope that it'd be useful in securing a job when the time comes. I repeat, no one get should passed over a job just because he is trained in *NIX!

--
Online backup with Mozy, sounds like Ozzie, but more!
Re:not terribly surprising... by nordicfrost · 2004-09-19 00:31 · Score: 5, Informative

How can the TCO of Linux possibly be higher than Windows? I manage the network of a small company, with som PCs and a Linux file server. The Windows machines are taking 90% of the work time to manage. The Linux system sits there humming along, while the Windows machines get infected, clogged down and what not. So far, for the company (a small one), the Linux server has cost them 0$ since they recycled an old server, whereas the Windows is 900$ in new hardware for XP + 4 manhours last week trying to remove the about:blank spyware shit. And they are even running in non-priveliged accounts! + Countless more man-hours setting it up, trying to locate drivers etc. Windows has not a lower TCO than Linux, in my experince.
Re:not terribly surprising... by miu · 2004-09-19 00:37 · Score: 1

I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but there is a very real hatred between the classes and in most current societies class is defined by money.

--

[Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
Re:not terribly surprising... by Daniel+Ellard · 2004-09-19 00:43 · Score: 1

Either you live in a very enlightened school district (if so please send me where!) or else you've never ever dealt with the PTA.

--
Disclaimer: I work for a company, but I don't speak for them.
Re:not terribly surprising... by Tlosk · 2004-09-19 00:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

Sometimes there are headless conspiracies. Otherwise known as the law of unintended effects.

Most school systems generate the bulk of their revenue from property taxes. Property taxes are based on the assessed value of the homes.

This is the difference between "good" schools and "bad" schools. People are also willing to pay a premium to move into one of the "good" school districts, driving the valuations higher, and the taxes higher while at the same time depressing prices in poor districts and driving tax revenues down even more.

And this is where the conspiracy comes in. State wide fixed per pupil spending would resolve this issue, but the people with the power are the ones that have everything to lose because they currently live in the good districts.
Re:not terribly surprising... by TykeClone · 2004-09-19 01:04 · Score: 2, Insightful

If you mix Windows computers and school age kids, you invariably get a mess of spyware and viruses making the machine unusable fairly quickly. I think that's just the nature of kids and the software that they like to run and the web sites that they like to visit.
I'd say that you have a better shot at a lower cost of ownership with a linux machine than a windows machine in this situation.
School aged kids are adaptable and don't need retraining to learn linux applications versus windows applications. Schools should be fairly agnostic about the applications that they teach anyway. And there shouldn't be many educational programs that lock the schools into using windows.
20 years ago, Apple was able to fill the schools with Apple II machines while businesses used PCs. There is no reason that schools shouldn't use linux over windows where it makes sense to do so.

--
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
Re:not terribly surprising... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 01:10 · Score: 3, Informative

LOL. I've been managed a classroom with 16 Windows 95 computers with 0 (zero, none) hours per month to manage it.

The system drive (C:) were read-only and it was allowed to save files only on D: drive or Windows NT4.0 server in users folders.
All writes to drive C: were stored only in memory, after reboot - system drive (with all files, registry, settings, software) were exactly as it was at date of original configuration.

Even more - there were no GHost at thouse times, I've to spend a 45 minutes to wrote a disk duplication via network program on Pascal for DOS !! If worked just fine. To duplicate 16 PCs after reconfiguration it takes only 3-4 hours !

I tend to believe that you are doing something wrong with your OS.
It does not matter that OS you are using, it's matter how !!
Yep. You need to be a Guru to manage Windows network, that's why a lot of admins preffer "user-friendy" *NIX.
Re:not terribly surprising... by Tim+C · 2004-09-19 01:51 · Score: 2, Informative

The higher TCO is generally put down to having to retrain the admins and users of the systems in question, not to mention the loss of productivity while they become accustomed to the change. Not saying that's the way it happens, just that in my experience that's at least part of the explanation for increased TCO.

Incidentally, if you're really spending that much time fixing your Windows boxes, someone somewhere is donig something very badly wrong. I've run a few XP boxes for the last couple of years, and have spent a total of maybe an hour fixing problems with them. You're also not comparing like with like - the Linux file server is just sat there serving files. The Windows machines have (it seems) all sorts of clueless users abusing them.

That said, you'll have to expend a lot less effort if you switch the desktops to Linux, until enough people follow suit that the crapware writers start to target it; then you'll find your users installing all sorts of crap again.

--
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Re:not terribly surprising... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 01:53 · Score: 1, Interesting

All writes to drive C: were stored only in memory, after reboot - system drive (with all files, registry, settings, software) were exactly as it was at date of original configuration.
What software/configuration are you using to achieve this?
I'm managing a school network, and this is just the kind of setup I need.
Thanks
Re:not terribly surprising... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 02:09 · Score: 1, Interesting

The fools where I work surf p0rn with IE, and yes, they got one user account infected with about:blank.
What was funny was that the fellow was happy being on the home page the about:blank set him up with.
It was a month before anyone looked over his shoulder and said: "Hey, you seem to have been infected by about:blank!"
For some strange reason, the thing seems to have gone away by itself, and he's back at it, surfing
p0rn all day long. The Boss does that too, so they are a happy couple, while the rest of us do the work.
Re:not terribly surprising... by bondjamesbond · 2004-09-19 02:11 · Score: 1

THAT'S the real question: why are our schools not properly funded?? Here we are dumping BILLIONS into fucking Iraq, and our schools are begging for just thousands of dollars.
Re:not terribly surprising... by AnyoneEB · 2004-09-19 02:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

That sounds a lot like deep freeze, which the school I go to uses. I believe that because of the way it works, if someone boots off a floppy or a CD they can make permanent changes to the hard drive, but I've never actually tested that.

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Centralization breaks the internet.
Re:not terribly surprising... by ClosedSource · 2004-09-19 02:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

"Besides, the future of IT is Linux. Who gives a shit about Office?"

Well, it's a little early to be sure of that. In any case, most children are not going to grow up and become IT workers and if current trends continue a much smaller percentage will do so than in the last generation.

If they use Linux when they grow up, they'll be using a GUI and won't know any more about the Unix command line or Unix internals than the average person knows about the Windows command prompt or Windows internals today.
Re:not terribly surprising... by FooAtWFU · 2004-09-19 03:03 · Score: 1

Yes. The terrible upper class conspiracies happen at the religious/private schools. To cite one example, about a decade ago one of the local religious schools started a building project to replace the roof. Ten years and over ten million dollars later, they have a "new parking lot" (of about 8 spaces), an extension to the school, an incredibly expensive gymnasium floor which had been donated but now needs to be more or less completely replaced due to warping, a new playground set... and just now they've STARTED to replace the roof. Tuition has skyrocketed, educational standards have plummeted... hardly anyone who's really interested in the "religious" aspect of the school can afford it... and no one is quite sure where all the money has got off to. There's talk of embezzlement at some level, and the possibilities of them losing nonprofit status.
Just proving that the needy don't steal even half so much as the rich when given the oppurtunity.
My, what an off-topic ramble.

--
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
Re:not terribly surprising... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 03:07 · Score: 0

Thanks, I'll try that.
You wouldn't happen to know any free, preferably open source alternatives, would you?
Re:not terribly surprising... by iamatlas · 2004-09-19 03:28 · Score: 4, Funny

If they use Linux when they grow up, they'll be using a GUI and won't know any more about the Unix command line or Unix internals than the average person knows about the Windows command prompt or Windows internals today.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH..... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.... IT CAN'T BE TRUE!
Re:not terribly surprising... by Daengbo · 2004-09-19 03:29 · Score: 1

An even more interesting questions is why our schools aren't adequately funded...

I grew up on the windward side of Oahu, and I can say that many of the schools that were listed in the article as receiving assistance were private schools, so you should be asking why they don't charge more tuition...

--
Put identity in the browser.
Re:not terribly surprising... by Bull999999 · 2004-09-19 04:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

And they only want the upper classes to get good education through private schools

Books, such as Millionaire Next Door shows "wealth takes sacrifice, discipline, and hard work, qualities that are positively discouraged by our high-consumption society. 'You aren't what you drive,'". Your "average" millionaires live in modest houses, drive used cars, and clip coupons. They do value their children's education and thus increase their spending in that area. So if you value getting a large nice house, a new car and computer every couple of years, and buying other usless crap over your children's education, don't bitch at those who do just because they make you look bad.

As for people sending kids to the private schools, I think that it'll actually help public schools as they still pay property taxes that fund publics schools, but their kids are not using up the resources of public schools.

oh and maybe if us geeks don't spend so much on ultra fast computers and other cool gadets, there would be plent left for donating to Open Source Software organizations.

--
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Re:not terribly surprising... by bwy · 2004-09-19 06:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

How can the TCO of Linux possibly be higher than Windows?

Think Linux on the desktop and not server. For example, try converting a call center from Windows to Linux. The user has several different apps they have to use to access different systems, etc. Suppose your average employee maybe has 2 years of college or less and earns under $10 an hour. Typical person isn't tech-savy, but they've got a Dell or a Gateway at home and they use Win98 or maybe WinXP to do various things.

Take this user and give them some flavor of Linux at work. You can train them on how to use their apps... but when the abnormal happens, the user is in unfamiliar territory, and an environment that frankly just isn't a friendly as XP. This isn't really a training issue either. Even IT guys like myself admit that things on the desktop are just harder with Linux. You can't just plug hardware in and expect it to work. Installing drivers is not easy. Heck, installing software isn't easy. People say when a Linux desktop locks up, it isn't Linux, it is X or the Window Manager. Explain this concept to your sub $10 an hour employee and teach them to open a shell, kill X, restart, etc? I think not.
Re:not terribly surprising... by popdookey · 2004-09-19 06:53 · Score: 1

Our schools are not adequately funded because no one likes taxes.

Giving away computers is easy, and we do it well. The hard part is creating a sustainable, self-reliant computer lab that has an educational and economic impact. That is HOSEF's specialty.

We not only set up the lab, we also provide free classes on how to run the lab. We handle server administration until we can get a project leader or teacher to handle these tasks. We provide mailing lists for support. We promise replacement of failed clients, as long as we have them, for the life of the lab. If volunteer support is not enough, we put the school or recipient in touch with Friends of HOSEF for paid support.

I guarantee that there is no other computer lab in the country with a lower total cost of ownership. Period. As an MBA I have no choice but to consider the bottom line.

By using a Linux lab, we return schools to teaching concepts, not vendor skillsets. By using a GUI, they learn how to operate a computer and to use logic and reasoning, not vendor-provided how-tos. Our schools are not a corporate training ground, and OSS solutions provide a competitive array of desktops that don't create a several hundred dollar burden of ownership if you too want that software on your computer.

--
Success without humility is an indulgence in arrogance
Re:not terribly surprising... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 06:58 · Score: 0

For reference, in case anyone else is interested, I found this alternative, also commercial: Clean Slate.
Re:not terribly surprising... by Terrasque · 2004-09-19 07:16 · Score: 0

t said, you'll have to expend a lot less effort if you switch the desktops to Linux, until enough people follow suit that the crapware writers start to target it; then you'll find your users installing all sorts of crap again.

Uh. Yeah. In windows you'll have to do hard stuff, like visiting a site, or run an email attachment.
In linux, all you have to do is just "Download this file, go into terminal and cd to the directory you downloaded it to, and write chmod +x file && ./file" - as simple as that.

Of course, all self-respecting BOFH's will instantly set noexec on the /home partition and set the shell to /bin/false.
It will be interesting to see how crapware will target linux.

--
It's The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
Re:not terribly surprising... by tclark · 2004-09-19 08:53 · Score: 1

Take this user and give them some flavor of Linux at work. You can train them on how to use their apps... but when the abnormal happens, the user is in unfamiliar territory, and an environment that frankly just isn't a friendly as XP. This isn't really a training issue either. Even IT guys like myself admit that things on the desktop are just harder with Linux. You can't just plug hardware in and expect it to work. Installing drivers is not easy.

What are you talking about? Office workers do not install software, and they certainly don't install divers. Hell, 95% of the people in my office don't now what a driver is. Around here, anything beyond running the apps is handled by IT. A system that is friendly to an IT staffer, like *nix, is easier to maintain.
Re:not terribly surprising... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 09:49 · Score: 0

"An even more interesting questions is why our schools aren't adequately funded..."

I don't believe funding is the problem. Something in the recessess of my memory told me that many private schools are less expensive than the average public school. So I did a quick Google, and have come to the conclusion that public schools spend about $7000/student, whereas private schools spend more like $4000/head. This San Francisco Bay area study is a decent starting place, with a link to National Center for Education stats:

http://independent.aristotle.net/newsroom/news_det ail.asp?newsID=10

I think it has more with where those dollars go than how many dollars there are. Hmm, perhaps choice in the education market would work as well as choice in the software market, if it weren't for those 500-pound gorilla monopolies that spread FUD about choice . . . .
Re:not terribly surprising... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 10:01 · Score: 0

"I tend to believe that you are doing something wrong with your OS."

No; you are doing something non-standard with your OS that it's not designed for.

Try doing the same thing in a heterogenous environment with Win95,98,NT,2K, and XP, on which many of these OSes are rather insistent on writing to the System drive. Throw in some Active Directory hookups, and some VIPs who "need" write access to the System drive, along with a few core apps that simply won't work without write access to the System drive, and you've got a real headache.

I'm not saying you can't accomplish it, but then you can also probably cut down a tree with a hammer if you really want to. I am saying that the design of Windows must be circumvented to do what you're doing.

So if what you're doing is really the right way to do something with an OS, then it's Microsoft that is doing something wrong with its OS, not the users.
Re:not terribly surprising... by bwy · 2004-09-19 10:56 · Score: 1

What are you talking about? Office workers do not install software, and they certainly don't install divers.

Using that as an example only... Point being that lots of experienced IT folks have issues getting Linux to work on a desktop, installing software, drivers, etc. In my experience, true "idiot" end users will also encounter their own set of issues. Because, most end users do more than just sit at one app or a browser all day. They may not be installing software but these folks will definately find their own challenges with Linux.

Again, the problem isn't necessarily that users aren't "familiar" with Linux. I think if you took strictly an end user and swapped his Win32 system with OS X, they would have a learning curve but they'd probably be a hell of a lot more at home after a week than they would be if you gave them Fedora or Mandrake. IMHO, from scratch (no computer experience at all), OS X would actually score the highest for the least learning curve.
Re:not terribly surprising... by tclark · 2004-09-19 11:54 · Score: 1

In my office, I gave a Linux (Mandrake) loaded laptop to a sales guy. He's a competent computer user, but he's not a geek by a long shot. It took him one afternoon to get the hang of things, and he's had no trouble since then.

Admittedly, it's a small sample size, but it's encouraging. I'll be rolling out more Linux desktops at my office soon.
Re:not terribly surprising... by agent+clone · 2004-09-19 13:08 · Score: 1

I would say it would be.
The fact is that most people don't wish to know about all the technical stuff for an operating system. They wish to have something that they can occasionally use for the internet or for word processing etc. and is easy to operate.
Re:not terribly surprising... by necro2607 · 2004-09-19 20:36 · Score: 1

Exactly the same situation at my job where I basically fix anything that goes wrong.

Our linux file server has been runing for 143 days without a single crash, etc. etc.. it just WORKS

Our Windows-based printer computers? They crash every few days. They just plain run like crap compared to the Linux server and desktops we use there. It's very frustrating to lose the entire print queue because of that (I work at a digital photography place that prints queues of hundreds of photos at a time). We'd be running linux on the printer-controlling comps but they're pretty rare printers... thus no linux drivers. heh
Re:not terribly surprising... by RWerp · 2004-09-19 21:01 · Score: 1

State wide fixed per pupil spending would resolve this issue, but the people with the power are the ones that have everything to lose because they currently live in the good districts.

No, it wouldn't. You'd have to forbid local authorities and parents to subsidize their schools in order to achieve a fixed level for funding, and it would be quite authoritarian way of running the system. Otherwise, the differences will arise nonetheless, only you'll have a less transparent funding mechanism.
In my opinion, one should have a minimum level of funding set at some reasonable compromise between quality and cost (good education is not cheap, even taking into account the enthusiasm and dedication of many teachers who work hard for low pay).

--
"Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
Re:not terribly surprising... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 21:14 · Score: 0

Our linux file server has been runing for 143 days without a single crash, etc. etc.. it just WORKS

So?
Our Windows file server does the same.
Re:not terribly surprising... by virtual_mps · 2004-09-19 23:38 · Score: 1

An even more interesting questions is why our schools aren't adequately funded...

No, the interesting question is why people think that spending $$$ buying new computers every couple of years in the k12 system is good use of public education dollars. The funding is adequate, it's just poorly managed.
Re:not terribly surprising... by pfleming · 2004-09-20 03:24 · Score: 1

As for people sending kids to the private schools, I think that it'll actually help public schools as they still pay property taxes that fund publics schools, but their kids are not using up the resources of public schools.
That's not true in Arizona where the schools get a dollar amount per head actually in the school. And they don't use an average, a high balance, some kind of mean calculation. It's two days during the year where they count attendance. So if it happens to fall during a massive flu outbreak or for some other reason attendance is abnormally low, too bad for the school, the funding is 'adjusted' right then and there.
Also, there is a credit on the Arizona taxes that allows individuals to 'donate' to the school primarly for extra curricular activies and subtract that amount from their Arizona income tax bill. While this might seem like a good idea, we all know that the long term affects of this is reduced government spending on schools even though the parental spending was already there.
Re:not terribly surprising... by Bull999999 · 2004-09-20 04:28 · Score: 1

That's interesting. Here in Colorado, a certain part of ther property tax is set aside for local school districts and you can see what the percentages are from the county site. In case of AZ, do they reduce property tax if not enough students are in the public school system, or do they spend it on something else?

--
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Re:not terribly surprising... by pfleming · 2004-09-20 05:03 · Score: 1

They do collect a specific percentage of property tax for the school district. Exactly how they divvy it up I'm not 100% sure. Here's what I do know: charter schools get public funding right alongside public schools, except charter schools get something like 200~$500 more per student. I also know that the PTO at my childrens' school has bought paper for the copy machine, donated the entire profits from(and incurred unreimbursed expenses due to) the last fund raiser we did. The destination of the funds? Toilet paper, hand towels and other supplies that the budget had run out on 3 months before the end of the school year.
As an aside, Colorado also refunds a certain portion of your collected sales tax when state revenue exceeds expenses. (at least that's how I understand it) Arizona, and most other states that I have seen do not.
Re:not terribly surprising... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 08:39 · Score: 0

And where are your windows directory, your registry, etc?
Re:not terribly surprising... by Bert64 · 2004-09-20 22:19 · Score: 1

Call center staff will just use what they're given, and will moan about whatever theyre using.. All the call center staff i know moan about the windows systems they use, and they would moan about linux systems too, but most likely they would moan less after the initial whimpering about the changes..
As for installing software, why do your call center staff need to do this? You should prevent people installing arbitrary software on the machines, remember these are business machines there for a specific purpose, third party software could interfere with the business purposes

--
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Sneaking in through the back door... by Mudcathi · 2004-09-19 00:16 · Score: 5, Interesting

From the article: "...the (Hawaii Dept of Education) is unlikely to convert to open-source machines itself, because the schools get big discounts on service for proprietary software. Although the open-source programs are free, technical support is not," (Rodney Moriyama, assistant superintendent of the DOE's Office of Information Technology Services), pointed out, "so the DOE would have to pay if there were problems with the software. There's actually no incentive for us to do it," he said.

Apparently, he doesn't realize that other branches of the state gov't feel differently, and are putting out bids to convert from Windows to Linux

--

"He who throws mud, loses ground." - proverb

Re:Sneaking in through the back door... by Amiga+Lover · 2004-09-19 00:47 · Score: 2, Informative

> From the article: "...the (Hawaii Dept of Education) is unlikely
> to convert to open-source machines itself, because the
> schools get big discounts on service for proprietary software

This is quite standard microsoft practice with regards to schools. A state or country works out a deal with microsoft whereby they get essentially free access to MS software. It's paid for by the relevant education department, but schools get a package of perhaps 20 CDs of MS software.

They can be installed at will on any machine within the school, and often on staff personal machines, depending on the details of the contracts worked out with MS and their department.

It's a good or bad thing, depending on how you wish to look at it.
Re:Sneaking in through the back door... by NewbieProgrammerMan · 2004-09-19 02:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

It's a good or bad thing, depending on how you wish to look at it.
In the same way that getting a deep discount on your first two hits of crack can be a good or bad thing, depending on how you look at it, right? :P (Sorry, couldn't resist).
I would like to see some open-source based companies do exactly what Microsoft is doing; after all, if pre-loading school kids with Microsoft product experience is considered beneficial to Microsoft in the long run, why would the same model not apply to RedHat? Granted, RedHat and others don't have lots of expensive products to sell, but having more people in the population that have been exposed to open source will probably (long-term) create more demand for their services and products.

--
[b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
Re:Sneaking in through the back door... by euxneks · 2004-09-19 07:55 · Score: 1

You'd also think that Linux would be easier on the tech support and people would give discounts... Although, the windows tech may give discounts so that they _will_ use windows and then end up calling in the tech support more often, because of bugs and viruses in windows... hrm...

--
in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni

bumper sticker... by GillBates0 · 2004-09-19 00:20 · Score: 4, Funny

My l33t hax0r student just 0wn3d your honor student's Windoze boxen.

--
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam

Re:bumper sticker... by Pantero+Blanco · 2004-09-19 00:45 · Score: 1

Problem is...You'd be getting keyed or egged daily.
Re:bumper sticker... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-24 02:55 · Score: 0

Boxen is plural. Should be box.

Is your source on this reliable? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 00:26 · Score: 0

huh?

Cool! Brings back highschool memories. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 00:29 · Score: 4, Interesting

Cause in 1991 when I was on "business computer" class in Kaneohe, HI (east side of Oahu) we were running some crusty old 386 machines w/ MS Works. We still had quite a few old Tandy comptuers with 8" floppy drives in the room too. Though nobody used them.

My first taste of the internet was in sept. 1990 on these NAPLS terminals w/ 1200bps modems they were brand new but right after 2400bps modems came out. But every school and state library had at least one. They connected to an X.25 PSDN called "Hawaii FYI". There was a taxpayer funded chat service on the system, as well as links to the state lib, U of H and some state info systems.

I met some uni students who then turned me on to MUDs, though you had to break out of the library system to get on the net cause there was no public ISP back then. Unless you counted the university system, but then you had to go to Keller hall in the middle of the night. I actually got to meet a member of LoD while messing around online who was at the time an admin for Santanfe.edu. Oh man this brings back memories!

RMS would be very pleased today by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 00:37 · Score: 0

For the use of Free Software and especially for this quote:

"In HOSEF labs, computers run Fedora, a GNU/Linux-based operating system."

(P.S. It's not because of Fedora.)

Grief From The PTA? by cmholm · 2004-09-19 00:37 · Score: 1

A more interesting question is total cost of ownership; i.e. how much money this really saves over the long run (factoring in things like the fact that the PTA is probably giving the schools grief because the students are learning Office or similar skills that will help them get jobs... believe me, this happens).

I'm afraid you lost me there. Are you saying a PTA wants students to gain MS Office skills, or that they don't? In any case, I agree with you, some data would be nice. At my son's public elementary, they're lucky enough that the Hawaii DOE pays to have a couple of staff members manage the computers and teach the computer labs. The TCO would all depend on whether said staff members purchase a clue about Linux or not. At the moment, the school's iMacs are all running MacOS 9.

--
Luke, help me take this mask off ... Just for once, let me butterfly kiss you with my own eyes.

Re:Grief From The PTA? by Daniel+Ellard · 2004-09-19 00:56 · Score: 1

Sorry, I wrote "are" when I meant to write "aren't". Too early in the morning for me (and I'm on the east coast -- you must really be burning the midnight oil!).
I've definately gotten heat for things like this in the past. Some parents (not all, but enough to make a stink) look at a syllabus and compare that with what they see in the help-wanted ads or in the press and get upset that their child is not being educated to be buzzword-compliant. Of course it's wrong to cave in to their demands, but it's also wrong to discount that there is a real cost in repeatedly defending your syllabus. There's also a real cost in terms of students whose parents will yank them from the course because they think it's a waste of time. Which is better: to have X kids learn something about IT using Windows/Office or to have X/Y kids learn something about IT via Linux/whatever? What's the value of Y for you?

--
Disclaimer: I work for a company, but I don't speak for them.

Great.... by gr8fulnded · 2004-09-19 00:38 · Score: 3, Insightful

Now that's out of the bag, Redmond will be on the phone by the end of their week with their Hawaiian office to offer "discounts" to the schools.

Yay for recycling... by jedimark · 2004-09-19 00:46 · Score: 3, Funny

And they smegging well should too.
This not only stops certain groups of corporate facist pigs from getting that little bit fatter - using the older computers is good for the environment.
There's a crapload of toxic waste generated from every circuitboard and chip that is made.
How much toxic krud came from the crappy computer you are using now? huh? Huh? Go out and plant a tree. ;-)
Im off to run my super-cluster of older PC's in support of the environment, right after I install that 3-phase power circuit and breath in some more coal fumes...

Flip-flops? by Markus+Registrada · 2004-09-19 00:47 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I grew up in Hawai'i. I went barefoot until I was 12.

Now I'm 42, and I still wear flip-flops, even though I live in Massachusetts.

Re:Flip-flops? by TykeClone · 2004-09-19 01:06 · Score: 1

Say hello to frostbitten feet then.

--
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
Re:Flip-flops? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 03:25 · Score: 0

"Flip-flops" is the mainland word for "slippers."
Re:Flip-flops? by Daengbo · 2004-09-19 03:39 · Score: 1

Well, then, you know that they are properly called slippers, don't you?

--
Put identity in the browser.

Third world schools are doomed! by bogaboga · 2004-09-19 00:54 · Score: 1

I always thought that American schools, though not all rich, are able to afford computer labs. After all, the computer was invented there, and [major] computer advancement continues to come from the US. This made me think that poor schools in the third world will be able to utilise the technology discarded by the west. Now comes LTSP and budget cuts. These equipment will not smell the African fresh air: Why? because it costs money to send equipment abroad. I was begining to collect this equipment here [in Canada], but of late, I realised it was getting very slow. I guess the reason is that schools like those in Hawaii are the reason.

Slashdoters, please convince whoever funds those schools to continue doing so because if things do not change, no one will be willing to donate these computers for use in the 3rd world. I also realize that no body owes the third world a living.

On the other hand, if there was a way to boot these machines the NoMachine way, http://www.nomachine.com/, that would be great.

Cb..

Re:Third world schools are doomed! by Hinhule · 2004-09-19 01:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

The thing is, schools are starting to realize they don't "need" new computers for what they are teaching. Unless they are having classes that require lots of computing power. Most school computers get used for, writing papers, surfing the net, learning basic computing and in some cases a bit of programming. Universities and colleges are another matter though.

As far as I'm concerned it's a good thing the money can be used in other areas.
Re:Third world schools are doomed! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 01:25 · Score: 2, Interesting

"I also realize that no body owes the third world a living."

We may not "owe" them anything, but being human beings, people *deserve* to have basic needs met. To deny those who live in poverty while living in luxury seems terribly hypocritical of our "humanitarian" Western society.

Seriously, the main thing that guaranteed the well-being of many of us was a spin of the cosmic roulette wheel: we were born in countries with economies that allow us to provide for ourselves. Hundreds of millions of people don't have that luxury.

And honestly, in response to those who may complain about the United States' current economy, I don't mean to undercut those who are actually suffering, but ask yourself this: Are you going to bed hungry tonight? Are you going to *a* bed? In a mostly dry and comfortable place? You have it better off than many. :o(

Clark

P.S. So what are we going to do about it?
Re:Third world schools are doomed! by holymoo · 2004-09-19 01:28 · Score: 1, Insightful

Yes, american public schools are poor, well depending on the area. In reading, Pennsylvania, the average spending per student is about 6,500 roughly. While in areas of New York, New York, the spending goes down to about 1,600. This is why the No child left behind idea doesn't work, many schools are starved for funds already, and money is important for needing to correct the problem. No child left behind is a act started by Goerge Bush that basically gives the schools tests, then if the score is higher than the other schools, they get more money, if it doesn't do better, then well they school looses funding.
Re:Third world schools are doomed! by lachlan76 · 2004-09-19 01:41 · Score: 1

Definitely. The computers we do CAD on though........I can feel the HDDs vibrating through the desk. They're that old.

The Media Studies computers though are much nicer: G4 towers. And there will be G5s next year. And all with OS X.

For video editing and photoshopping though, you do need the extra power.
Re:Third world schools are doomed! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 03:33 · Score: 0

> money is important for needing to correct the problem.

And Bush's act gives more to schools than the federal government ever has! Get the facts straight before posting.

> the spending goes down to about 1,600.

Again, get your facts straight. At the very poor school in Queens where my wife teaches, they get almost $9,000 per student per year. She makes almost $70k (for working less than half the days of the year!). If the government only spent $1,600 per student, that would mean a class of 25 would only get $40k per year. Obviously that number is wrong. That wouldn't even come close to just paying the teacher's salary.

> they school looses funding.

What? How could you blame Bush for making their funding not tight? What does that mean anyway? Not tight funding?
Re:Third world schools are doomed! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 03:48 · Score: 0

Yep and then Bush specifically didn't fund No Child Left Behind and thus its a failure. By all accounts the blame for this lies squarely on his shoulders. Its great to be able to point out this failure as yet another reason to vote him out but the sad thing is its the children who are getting screwed. Its not that the idea doesn't work its that he didn't fund it.

btw, we are all free to buy assualt weapons again! Hurray!! Thanks George for letting the assualt weapons ban expire!!! Brady and our Police thank you!!
My AK47 with extended ammo capacity is already on its way!!
Re:Third world schools are doomed! by felila · 2004-09-19 07:16 · Score: 1

HOSEF has had to turn away donations of old computers because we didn't have space to store them. There is NO shortage of old computers.

We're also working with a former Peace Corps volunteer who wants to set up K12LTSP Linux labs in Western Samoa. We're helping prepare a container-load of thin clients for shipping to Western Samoa.

Third-world schools have nothing to fear from us.

-- HOSEF volunteer
Re:Third world schools are doomed! by otis+wildflower · 2004-09-19 07:27 · Score: 1

We may not "owe" them anything, but being human beings, people *deserve* to have basic needs met. To deny those who live in poverty while living in luxury seems terribly hypocritical of our "humanitarian" Western society.

People _deserve_ nothing. Sorry, it's Nature's way. If you wish to give them something, that's your prerogative, freedom permits you the freedom to give. However, if you use your guns to take from me in order to satisfy your urge to gain pleasure by giving, then you're stealing from me and I'll use my guns to protect myself.

Seriously, the main thing that guaranteed the well-being of many of us was a spin of the cosmic roulette wheel: we were born in countries with economies that allow us to provide for ourselves. Hundreds of millions of people don't have that luxury.

Ummm.. No.

There is no 'randomness' involved here: millions of people _died_ to create and maintain the freedoms Americans enjoy. The structures are deliberate, as proved by the failure of societies that don't have them. There is no relativism here: Western culture is superior, QED. And 'random birth' is bullshit quite frankly: my families fled oppression, social theft, and/or poverty in order to come to the USA and seek their fortunes freely. That's a self-selecting demographic, and that demographic is what makes America better.

And honestly, in response to those who may complain about the United States' current economy, I don't mean to undercut those who are actually suffering, but ask yourself this: Are you going to bed hungry tonight? Are you going to *a* bed? In a mostly dry and comfortable place? You have it better off than many. :o(

Thanks to the sacrifice of those rough men standing ready to do violence on my behalf, throughout the centuries of American freedom. Again, this is deliberate. We have (and continue to) shed blood to defeat tyrants, thieves and totalitarians.

Any other race, religion or culture can do the same. All they have to do is:
* respect each other's rights, including those of religion, speech, and property
* have a free and independent press
* have an open, multiparty democratic system with an ironclad separation of religion and state

Hell, the US can continue with a coopted political and media class, thanks to all the guns in private ownership and the cravenness of local politicians.

P.S. So what are we going to do about it?

Smash all non-democratic nations and force them to be democratic or nuke the shit out of them. Who needs six billion people anyway? New Hampshire has it right: Live Free or Die.
Re:Third world schools are doomed! by j3ll0 · 2004-09-19 09:30 · Score: 1

Hmmmmm....four-digit UID....couldn't be could it?

People _deserve_ nothing. Sorry, it's Nature's way. If you wish to give them something, that's your prerogative, freedom permits you the freedom to give. However, if you use your guns to take from me in order to satisfy your urge to gain pleasure by giving, then you're stealing from me and I'll use my guns to protect myself.

Why does everything come down to a matter of force when dealing with Americans? "Two words. Nuclear Fuckin' weapons..." The fallacy in this thinking is that you seem to believe it's a zero-sum game. It's not: especially when you have farmers plowing their crops back into the fields to increase their moetary yield.

'random birth' is bullshit quite frankly: my families fled oppression, social theft, and/or poverty in order to come to the USA ... ...That's a self-selecting demographic

You're right, it is a self selecting demogarphic. Frightened people flee, and you still seem to be afraid of enough things to need to keep your guns around. Let's face it - you aren't going to face a military threat (you do have the most effective army), and your personal weapons aren't really going to help you against a terror attack. So tell me again, what are you afraid of? An Afghani coming over to steal your stuff?

Any other race, religion or culture can do the same. All they have to do is:
* respect each other's rights, including those of religion, speech, and property
* have a free and independent press
* have an open, multiparty democratic system with an ironclad separation of religion and state

Respect each other's rights - as long as;

you subscribe to Christianity or the cable broadcast version of it
just like yours
open multiparty democratic process as long as you can fund raise enough cash to actually run.

Smash all non-democratic nations and force them to be democratic or nuke the shit out of them. Who needs six billion people anyway? New Hampshire has it right: Live Free or Die.

And this is the crux...why do you think people hate you? Why do you think people would want to commit terror attacks against you? It's because of exactly this sort of foreign policy thinking. It's about thinking that says it is acceptable to chase profits instead of raising living standards.

The rest if the world hates you like a poor innercity person hates the landlord.

You invest nothing in the third world but expect no jealousy?

Thank God America got the Puritans and Australia got the convicts....
Re:Third world schools are doomed! by lifespan · 2004-09-20 15:53 · Score: 0

what a rabid load of drivel. let me guess.... Bachelor of Arts 1st year majoring in Playdough Sculpture and Interpretive Dance?

--
-- Howto: Get +5 (1) Whine about M$ (2) Namedrop Gentoo (3) Casually Abuse Mods (4) Namedrop Early Computer Model
Re:Third world schools are doomed! by lifespan · 2004-09-20 15:56 · Score: 0

"To deny those who live in poverty while living in luxury seems terribly hypocritical of our "humanitarian" Western society."
How many of your own homegrown homeless have you ignored in the last year? Funny how the further away the homeless are, the more sympathy the hypocrits feel for them. :)

--
-- Howto: Get +5 (1) Whine about M$ (2) Namedrop Gentoo (3) Casually Abuse Mods (4) Namedrop Early Computer Model
Re:Third world schools are doomed! by otis+wildflower · 2004-09-21 04:33 · Score: 1

Why does everything come down to a matter of force when dealing with Americans? "Two words. Nuclear Fuckin' weapons..." The fallacy in this thinking is that you seem to believe it's a zero-sum game. It's not: especially when you have farmers plowing their crops back into the fields to increase their moetary yield.

OK, you seem to have missed my point, not surprising for a pinko. Let's walk back the cat here: You believe in distributing my stuff to poor people. I refuse to cooperate. How do you get me to distribute my stuff according to your whims? Then you become leader of the Government. How do you get me to distribute my stuff according to your whims? Pass laws? So you institutionalize theft of private property. Theft is still theft, regardless of who does it, so I resist. How do you get me to distribute my stuff according to your 'laws'? You call the cops. They don't carry flowers.

You're right, it is a self selecting demogarphic. Frightened people flee, and you still seem to be afraid of enough things to need to keep your guns around. Let's face it - you aren't going to face a military threat (you do have the most effective army), and your personal weapons aren't really going to help you against a terror attack. So tell me again, what are you afraid of? An Afghani coming over to steal your stuff?

Nice ad hominem slam of American immigrants there, fucko. Black 47? Pogroms? Dipshit. But I will continue anyway. Americans need weapons not to defend themselves from Afghan fuckwits, they need them to defend themselves against pinkos and BigGov types who would institutionalize redistibution (theft).

The rest if the world hates you like a poor innercity person hates the landlord.

And with just as much effect. Sure, they can burn Watts to the ground, but look at what good it does? And landlords have recourse to better guns, so it's just impotent rage. Neener neener neener.

You invest nothing in the third world but expect no jealousy?

Who gives a damn about jealousy? I'm jealous of Bill Gates' billions. He has no obligation to share them with _me_..

Thank God America got the Puritans and Australia got the convicts....

No wonder you're so enamored of institutionalized property crime.

Fuckin pinko.

Re: According to this graph by Daniel+Ellard · 2004-09-19 01:00 · Score: 1

Anyone who believes the parent should click on the links to double check that this AC actually means what he says... or if he's just a jackass.

--
Disclaimer: I work for a company, but I don't speak for them.

The computer was actually invented in Britain... by boffy_b · 2004-09-19 01:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

...we just didn't tell anyone about it until about 1976.

--
Windows is only $500 if your time is worthless.

r'member da kine... by PSaltyDS · 2004-09-19 01:08 · Score: 4, Funny

I graduated from Moanaloa High School, Honolulu in the 70's. The only computer on the whole campus (besides calculators the size of paperback books with red LED displays and fixed decimal points) was an ASR-33 teletype with a 300bd modem that could talk to a UoH computer. The math teacher would demo some real simple COBOL-looking stuff and cover basic boolean. I remember being very under-whelmed and wondering what anybody outside of NASA wanted with one of those things.

--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. - Geek's corollary to Clarke's law

Re:r'member da kine... by AndroidCat · 2004-09-19 02:03 · Score: 1

ASR-33 teletype with a 300bd modem
Overclocked to 300 bps, those ASR-33s must have been ready to Chernobyl at any second. ;) I think the problem was COBOL. Interactive terminals were wasted on the COBOL of that age (or any). A few games and BASIC might have sparked more interest.

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Re:r'member da kine... by Daengbo · 2004-09-19 04:03 · Score: 2, Funny

Maybe you even da kine da da kine?

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Put identity in the browser.

Re: you're support though by BitterAndDrunk · 2004-09-19 01:36 · Score: 1

One of the points of TFA (related to TCO) is that the support costs of proprietary systems are deeply discounted for public schools.
Keeping ANY system running and in decent order requires expertise and time. Time may be less in a linux environment (though in a public school with very restrictive internet access, who knows) but the time component still exists.
With the deep discounts given to public schools by vendors such as microsoft, and the general economics of support (a glut of Microsoft Certified support guys, whereas Linux support is rare and therefore much more costly) the TCO for a school system is a different beast.
I'm definitely pleased with the article and it's a very innovative approach, but saying that the TCO is always always lower under any circumstances is a bit fallacious.

--
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . . .

Great but... by allemandeleft · 2004-09-19 01:38 · Score: 1

Two things I'm wondering about

Database software? Everything I've seen under linux is backend server stuff; not really the best set up for 6th graders learning the nuts and bolts. After years of waiting I still don't see the FOSS version of something like Filemaker.
Hardware requirement inflation. This has been discussed on /dot elsewhere. I looked at the organization website and I'm wondering what system they're installing and what the hardware requirements are. Linux is getting hardware expensive IF people want the latest KDE etc.

Re:Great but... by PeterBrett · 2004-09-19 02:09 · Score: 3, Insightful

Everything I've seen under linux is backend server stuff; not really the best set up for 6th graders learning the nuts and bolts.

The first database software I used - well before I started high school - was MySQL. On Windows. Call me wierd, but I didn't find it hard to learn the nuts and bolts of that at all. MySQL is quite well documented.

Then again, I suppose I was quite a bit more motivated than your run-of-the-mill high-schooler is.

IMHO, the best way to teach people to use a database is via the backend-to-a-website route. Get them to make a website, and then keep asking them to add/remove/update pages. They'll soon be begging to be taught to add a database backend

--
Pirate Party UK
Re:Great but... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 02:50 · Score: 0

Hardware? Heard of ltsp?
Re:Great but... by Zebbers · 2004-09-19 07:03 · Score: 1

Backend database software? Are you trying to complain that there is no Access or something? Just run a frontend to mysql and all is good. There are many good ones out there. If you just want them to learn how databases work and manipulating them, then the backend can be managed by the teacher.

Hardware requirements? This is a phony argument. It is easier to tweak a Linux system to run well because there is less automagically installed and running. Ive run KDE on a p166 laptop before, albeit a little slowly but no different than windows. The beauty of linux is that even if the school was stuck with subpar hardware they can CHOOSE A DIFFERENT WINDOW MANAGER. Chances are though, the computers now being deprecated or atleast 500mhz which is more than enough. How can you even say Linux is hardware expensive without feeling stupid? I've yet to see XP run well with 128MB of ram, yet I can do magic with Linux under those circumstances.
Re:Great but... by magefile · 2004-09-19 09:52 · Score: 1

Filemaker is a POS. Much better to write your own in PHP or something similar. Trust me - I spent the summer dealing with Filemaker's inflexibility.
Re:Great but... by allemandeleft · 2004-09-19 10:53 · Score: 1

Php for 6th graders to learn database basics (field, record, sort, select)? No way. You clearly have not worked with 6th graders before, and that's one of the groups discussed in the article. I know it's lousy for multiple users over a network. But for learning the basics it's very friendly, and in the end I (the user) have a file to show for my efforts.
Re:Great but... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 01:10 · Score: 0

knode is a frontend written for KDE. It should be in KDE3.3.x and is currently very usable.

PS Using Access to teach about databases is a BAD thing to do.

All they work out is how data can be associated, but nothing about how to do it. Even them, you learn the ACCESS way of associating files, which is not the "correct" way in all cases.

Teach 'em properly.

Sorry... by boffy_b · 2004-09-19 01:48 · Score: 1

...that was horribly off-topic, but I just can't stand you blasted yanks taking all the credit for everything. [/nationalistic fervour]

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Windows is only $500 if your time is worthless.

Only desktop boxes? by AndroidCat · 2004-09-19 01:53 · Score: 2, Funny

How could they resist the temptation to say .. "Notebook'em Danno!"

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.

Where is the logic? by dutt · 2004-09-19 02:15 · Score: 1

"The old computers work as well as new ones because they work off of open-source servers." What? How exactly does this work out? Could someone please clarify this. I just don't see the logic.

Re:Where is the logic? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 03:19 · Score: 2, Informative

Check out:
http://k12ltsp.org/contents.html

I was skeptical when I first heard about ltsp. Now I use it.
Re:Where is the logic? by Daengbo · 2004-09-19 03:46 · Score: 3, Informative

They are probably using the servers to forward applications to the client display, which is easy to do under X, though I know that there are many guys from Hawaii active on the http://k12ltsp.org/ mailing list, so they could just be thin clients, but the article makes it sound ontherwise.

Either way, the applications run on the server, and is displayed on the client, so that's how the old computers work just as fast as new ones.

--
Put identity in the browser.

Re:Cool! Brings back highschool memories. by AndroidCat · 2004-09-19 02:22 · Score: 1

Poor old Naplips. That rebranded Telidon (from Canada) was always a solution looking for problem. A device-independent text and graphical display protocol. Who would ever need something like that eh?

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.

HOSEF website and details by nolife · 2004-09-19 02:35 · Score: 1

HOSEF web site.

Details of some of the projects.
Some thank you letters.

--
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.

Old hard drives from the Air Force? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 02:57 · Score: 1, Interesting

"A volunteer organization made up of about 100 members, HOSEF has taken in most of its computers from Hickam Air Force Base. To install them in schools, the volunteers first pull out the obsolete computer hard-drives..."
Was I the only one that put those two sentence together? Maybe I'm just being overly cautious as is my nature most of the time but I would think the Air Force may want to consider removing the hard drives from those computers as a rule. I realize they could be wipped fairly well but I would bet a good amount of money they were not.

Re:Old hard drives from the Air Force? by AKnightCowboy · 2004-09-19 05:41 · Score: 2, Informative

I realize they could be wipped fairly well but I would bet a good amount of money they were not.
Then you would be wrong. There are DOD standards government agencies have to follow regarding disposal of excessed equipment. If the hard drives can't be securely wiped then they will most likely be shredded.

Nice Surprise. by WindBourne · 2004-09-19 02:58 · Score: 1

Thats allright. With the "laynetworks" and your logon of HoneyBunchesOfGoats, I was somewhat expecting a very nasty picture.

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I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.

learning applications, or learning skills? by ChristTrekker · 2004-09-19 03:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

You can learn concepts of point-and-click, copy-and-paste, desktop metaphor, and most importantly how to use a help system on any OS. Schools that take the perspective of "we have to teach them system X because that's what they'll use in the 'real world'" are thinking wrong. Teach kids how to think not just which widgets to click.

And if they weren't screwing around in HyperCard on a Mac they'd be screwing around in Solitaire on in Windows. HyperCard may not be an application used in business today, but the kids learned some skills that can be applied elsewhere. If the teachers stressed that aspect of it, the kids will be OK.

--

Constitutionally Correct

Re:learning applications, or learning skills? by popdookey · 2004-09-19 08:58 · Score: 4, Interesting

You put your finger on our current initiatives with the Boys and Girls Club, our DOE, and the Makiki Community Library. We are working hard to create Community Technology Centers by partnering with existing institutions. The computer labs we donate are just a start.

Teachings computer literacy with a vendor neutral platform like Linux is the most important goal we have for the next few years. Education is not supposed to be about workforce readiness. That should be a by-product of a solid knowledge base.

Most importantly, teaching computer literacy with Linux does not create a multi-hundred dollar deficit to own the very software you are learning on.

--
Success without humility is an indulgence in arrogance
Re:learning applications, or learning skills? by ChristTrekker · 2004-09-19 14:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

Agreed. Our school systems are not trade programs. ("School To Work", "Goals 2000" and similar initiatives notwithstanding.) Schools are supposed to provide a liberal arts foundation for later life. The kids (and their parents) that will whine that "this isn't what I/they learned in school" are the ones that never really learned how to think, regardless what Johnny's grades were.

Great to hear about your program, btw. Kudos to you!

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Constitutionally Correct
Re:learning applications, or learning skills? by maddogradio · 2004-09-19 18:17 · Score: 1

"Most importantly, teaching computer literacy with Linux does not create a multi-hundred dollar deficit to own the very software you are learning on." Own the software? If you read the Eula carefully you own nothing! That my friend is the beauty of Open Source. :-) MD
Re:learning applications, or learning skills? by RWerp · 2004-09-19 20:43 · Score: 1

Own the software? If you read the Eula carefully you own nothing! That my friend is the beauty of Open Source.

You don't own the Open Source, either. You're still a licensee, only on much more liberal terms.

--
"Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
Re:learning applications, or learning skills? by mvdw · 2004-09-26 21:23 · Score: 1

You hit the nail on the head there. Applications kids learn today as far as computers go will NOT be relevent when they get to the workforce in 5-10 years, but the concepts will be. Using a mouse, using a keyboard, basic word processing etc are all a kid should really learn, picking up computing concepts for the future.

Stay away from recycled for labs! by jack1254 · 2004-09-19 03:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'm at a high school in Toronto, and sometimes I help with computer maintenance and things like that, and the entire department agrees, computer labs like these, with recycled computers can't stay! We get mabey 15 times more requests for help from those labs than any other in the building! Open-source is great, but look into off-lease Dell's, in the long run, it is much easier to use, and easier to make sure they work, and if you're going open-source anyway, the price is quite reasonable.

Re:Stay away from recycled for labs! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 06:04 · Score: 1, Insightful

Nonsense! I am typing this post on an ancient 240 MHz machine. Motherboard and processor are 6 years old, the hard disk is 8 years old and the case and power supply came from Gateway 12 years ago. It runs 24/7/365. I guess I should mention that this system has been through 2 CPU and 1 power supply cooling fans, but that's a mechanical wear-out phenomenom.

Once you get past infant mortality, there is virtually no age limit on electronics. In fact, the article mentioned that they eliminated one component with mechanical wear failures, the hard drive.

I would expect some startup and shake-down problems in the beginning with a lab like that described in the article, but I see no reason why older equipment in labs should take any more maintenance than new equipment. In fact, quite the opposite; until the new equipment gets past the infant mortality failures (a few months in my experience) the new equipment is likely to exhibit more failures.
Re:Stay away from recycled for labs! by HermanAB · 2004-09-19 06:05 · Score: 1

Uhhh, what software are you running on your recycled machines? I know Canada gets Windows98 for free from Microsoft. If that is the case, then yes - please do yourself a favour and load Linux.

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Oh well, what the hell...
Re:Stay away from recycled for labs! by jack1254 · 2004-09-19 15:33 · Score: 1

Oh I completly agree with A.C., old computers running relativly old software (open or closed source) can be quite effective, but when it comes to having to make a major software upgrade on a great deal or computers is when problems arrise. If you use a program like Ghost (like the board does), then imaging may not work, or work entirly due to hardware differences (sometimes even caused by those "mechanical wear-out phenomenom"). Over time, the computers slowly become different, and as such, more difficult to keep working. The other bonus of non-recycled computers is getting a warrenty, even if its just 3 months, so that it can get a bit of practical use in to test all it's functions. (If I'm wrong about no warrenty on recycled, then oops, but they hardware still ends up being differnt, unlike most manufacures warrenties) One of few cases this applies to me: "Standardisation is the way to go!"
Re:Stay away from recycled for labs! by snuf23 · 2004-09-20 11:57 · Score: 1

Sure in a corporate environment where you havea the funding standardization for basic desktops is the way to go.
If you have virtually NO budget for computers (my son's school has a budget of $2000 for computers) then this approach is a good one.
It should be noted that by using the ltsp software the client computers are diskless and boot off of the server. You couldn't use Ghost on them if you wanted to!
The point is to make the clients cheap and relatively disposable. Also taking out the hard drives removes a common failure point and means that you only need to secure the server. No need for antivirus or adware removal etc. on the clients.

--
Sometimes my arms bend back.

Some Deal by twitter · 2004-09-19 03:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

This is quite standard microsoft practice with regards to schools. A state or country works out a deal with microsoft whereby they get essentially free access to MS software. ... They can be installed at will on any machine within the school, and often on staff personal machines, depending on the details of the contracts worked out with MS and their department.

That's not how they treated Philadelphia and other school systems they sued.

It's funny how the administrative people are afraid of free software because they are afraid someone is going to have to fix it. No vendor ever back software and all will charge you to fix it. Given M$'s terrible record with visuses worm and all that which has cost everone plenty, the case for reliability is firmly on the free software side and the costs of switching will probably be lower than the cost of continued upkeep, let along upgrade.

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Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

Re:Some Deal by ScrewMaster · 2004-09-19 03:45 · Score: 3, Insightful

The copyright law should be applied universally," she says. "What is it we're trying to teach these children anyway? Are we teaching them that its OK to steal? The message we need to get to them is that intellectual property deserves to be respected.

That quote from your Philadelphia link was from some BSA drone, but it could have come from the RIAA, the MPAA or, for that matter, Orrin Hatch. If I were an intelligent kid in that school system, the message I'd take way would be this: "stealing" as defined by (insert favorite industry group / misguided Congressman here} is WRONG WRONG WRONG! Got that? It is WRONG. But intimidation, lying, cheating, and misrepresenting facts and relevant law is entirely okay so long as you're doing it to preserve and protect your cash flow.

So far as I'm concerned, let big business (and big government) keep their little "social messages" away from our children. This is a tactic long used by organized religions, totalitarian states and, for that matter, tobacco companies: indoctrinate children as early as possible, and as adults they will find it almost impossible to think outside the mental sandbox you've created for them.

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The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.

Similar project in Leeds, UK by terrencefw · 2004-09-19 03:34 · Score: 3, Interesting

Corpus Christi high school in Leeds did this. There's a writeup on Schoolforge UK.

Sadly, it got pulled. The last I heard of the project was this (quoted from a private email, but it's relevant and I'm sure he won't mind):

It was working fantastically well. Loads of donated clients running as LTSP terminals, squid, samba, and apache servers handling internet connectivity, logins, home directories, login authentication, profiles and policies (superbly hand crafted for lockdown and high performance), intranet, issue tracking for tech support, cups printer servers in every room with a web interface to allow the teachers to control what the kids can print... 100% uptime etc etc. In short, the best setup I've ever seen in any school - and I've been in loads in my 20 years as an educational software developer. Then the headmaster, against the advice of all the IT teachers, technicians, myself and sundry LEA advisers, decided that the school would do the Thomas Telford GNVQ in IT - essentially an MS office training course. So the whole lot was ripped out (Julian Old is now using the salvaged the client machines as a beowulf cluster up at Leeds Met) and replaced with hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of windows servers, licences and MS office software. You will not be surprised to learn that all the technical staff in the school resigned (to move to more enlightened schools), I withdrew my support, and that the new system is so flaky it is next to useless. The promised increase in exam grades (the kids, according to the Telford brochure, are virtually guaranteed to get at least a 4 C grade GCSE equivalent from the course) has actually resulted in a massive reduction in performance from the kids.

--
Like tinyurl, but one letter less! http://qurl.co.uk/

Re:Similar project in Leeds, UK by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 21:06 · Score: 0

It was working fantastically well

Yeah, right. heard this load of garbage before.

Re:Cool! Brings back highschool memories. by Daengbo · 2004-09-19 03:37 · Score: 1

Hey. I grew up in Kailua and finished HS in Kanohe. You didn't go to Hawaii Loa, did you? BTW: Who's LoD?

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Put identity in the browser.

Re:Real world vs. fanboy fantasies by orkysoft · 2004-09-19 03:43 · Score: 1

Are you related to Eric S Rayrnond (739458) by any chance?

--

I suffer from attention surplus disorder.

I looked on their site... by zogger · 2004-09-19 04:15 · Score: 1

here: http://www.hosef.org/

But I don't see anyplace with more technical information on exactly how they did the fedora diskless workstations and server setup. I'd like to see something like that.

Re:I looked on their site... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 09:25 · Score: 1, Informative

http://ltsp.org
http://www.k12ltsp.org
http://ww w.skolelinux.org
Re:I looked on their site... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 10:06 · Score: 1, Informative

They use http://www.k12ltsp.org. It's mentioned in the wiki.
Re:I looked on their site... by zogger · 2004-09-20 05:41 · Score: 1

thanks, to you and the other Ac I got replies from. I originally looked at their site but failed to see it.

Watch out Intel by jamesl · 2004-09-19 05:10 · Score: 2, Funny

The old computers work as well as new ones because they work off of open-source servers.
Photo caption.
... 8-year-old computers can run software just as quickly as newer ones using the open source servers.
From body of article.

When the public learns that installing open source software on eight year old machines lets them work as well as new ones, Intel's business is gonna go down the toilet. Dell's gonna be circling the sewer with them.

Ever wonder what else the newspaper is getting wrong?

Re:Watch out Intel by snuf23 · 2004-09-20 12:00 · Score: 1

Yeah but you have to admit from an open source perspective this a good sort of FUD. :)

--
Sometimes my arms bend back.

Other advantages by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 06:12 · Score: 0

Although the article stresses the economic benefits of such a lab, there are other advantages too.

The Open Source systems are just that: Open Source. Children that are taught on such systems have a unique opportunity to view what goes on "under the hood". This is an advantge that you do not get with proprietary software. Rather than just graduating glorified button-pushers, they will probably be graduating a certain percentage of kids that have a real idea of the software it takes to make an OS and applications as well.

Twitter: Life and times of a petulant cock-gobbler by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 06:43 · Score: 0

Twitter, you're a petulant cock-gobbling sycophant to Linux Torvaldyos! Quit taking DP from ESR and RMS's feculent cocks and why don't you try to stop sucking quite so much? Get out of your parents' basement and see the real world - maybe then you'll see how pathetic you sound, with your neverending stream of bullshit about how Microsoft is stalking you. Wasn't it you who said that Microsoft believes your insane ranting is actually a threat to them, so they PAY PEOPLE to reply to you on Slashdot? No sir, I don't get any money. I do it for the love. Someone has to go up against your paranoid whining. So get back in your cage and shut the fuck up already.

Booting off of floppy or CD by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 06:49 · Score: 0

Yes, deep freeze is loaded at boot, so if you boot off of an alternate device it does nothing. To use it correctly you need to set the computer to boot off of the hard drive only, password protect the bios, and lock the case.

Re: wearing-flipflops-until-age-18 dept. by Markus+Registrada · 2004-09-19 07:08 · Score: 1

I grew up in Hawai'i. I went barefoot until I was 12. Now I'm 42, and I still wear flip-flops, even though I live in Massachusetts.
Well, then, you know that they are properly called slippers, don't you?

"Slippers"? Hah! They were called "robbah sleepah". There's no "schwa" sound in the Hawaiian creole language.

(Fockeen Haole.)

Re:Wait a Second - -Details by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 07:31 · Score: 0

More details from an earlier report ....
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS620154298 9.html

Aloha!

It works. It's free. Duh... by pnelson · 2004-09-19 08:24 · Score: 1

Guess which part is difficult to explain?

K12LTSP.org

Re:Real world vs. fanboy fantasies by pnakashi · 2004-09-19 08:59 · Score: 3, Informative

Hi all, I'm the teacher that runs the lab at Liholiho Elementary, so I guess you could call me the horse's mouth. We're not talking about enterprise level business here, we're talking about a school that must fundraise for a tech budget. I know nothing about the TCO studies you're referring to. I just know what has happened here. With the help of our fantastic Hawaii LUG (HOSEF) and the great folks on the K12OSN email list, we have spent zero, that's $0.00 on support for the year that we've been using K12LTSP. I'm not saying we'll never need paid tech support, I'm just reporting what is fact (not marketing fluff). The great part about being a part of the OSS community is the willingness of people across the globe to help you for free, out of the goodness of their hearts, or their passion for the cause. I wonder if the same would be true from the "M$ community?" It seems like the bulk of the M$ support community is motivated by billable hours. P. Nakashima pnakashi -at- k12.hi.us Computer Teacher Liholiho Elementary School

Re:Real world vs. fanboy fantasies by torstenvl · 2004-09-19 09:01 · Score: 1

I seriously doubt you have any qualifications whatsoever. You don't even know what you're talking about.

Expenses for file-server workloads under Windows, compared to LinuxOS

There is no such thing as LinuxOS.

They compared Microsofts IIS to the Linux 7.0 webserver

There is no Linux 7.0. There is also no "Linux webserver". There is an Apache webserver often used on Linux. It's in version 2.0.x, I believe.

Application development and support costs for Windows compared to an opensores solution like J2EE

There is no such word as "opensores". "Open sores" do not constitute a possible solution. Open Source may however. Java is not Open Source. Java runs on Windows. Open Source software runs on Windows. Please see Sun's Java website, Apache's HTTPD download page, OpenOffice.org's website, and The GIMP's website

A full Windows installation, compared to installing Linux, on an Enterprise Server boxen: Is nearly three hours faster; Requires 77% fewer steps

"an... boxen" is ungrammatical, even at the lower register of informal speech used within the hacker subculture. Enterprise Server is not a company that makes hardware, as far as I can tell. Where did you get your figures? I've never spent more than an hour installing a Nix-like operating system, though dealing with driver issues on Windows gives me lots of headaches.

Compared to the best known opensores webserver "Red Hat", Microsoft IIS:

Red Hat is not a webserver. "opensores" is not a word.

Reliable companies with tried and tested products, or that bedroom coder Thorwaldes who publicly admits that he is in fact A HACKER???

There is no such person as Thorwaldes. Linus Torvalds is responsible for the kernel only, and even so is not exclusively responsible for it. Linus Torvalds is not a "bedroom coder" but is employed by OSDL, and was previously employed by Transmeta. You grossly misuse the term hacker.

MCSE, MCDST, MS Office Specialist, widely respected Amigan

I fail to see a high school diploma, let alone a computer science degree, in that list.

Converting Call Centres to Linux by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 09:28 · Score: 0

Contact centres (keep up, would you?) systems are something I have quite a *lot* of experience of, particularly with respect to agent desktops.

Believe me when I tell you: the agent has zero control over their desktop. Their apps are delivered to them and they don't have any good reason to change anything else, nor any rights to do so. 9 times out of 10, they won't even get to see the full desktop - just isolated icons for the front-end apps they use.

If the machine locks up, no matter what the cause, it's a straight call to the helpdesk. Meantime, they move to another machine. Anyone found trying to fix it themselves - even if they could - would be in severe hot water.

If your user is changing things, they're not answering contacts. If they break stuff, they're not answering contacts. They're *rewarded* (pay/evaluation/promotion) on a volume (and occasionally quality) basis - messing with stuff hits their stats so hits their personal success.

As long as the apps' interfaces are straightforward (and increasingly they're browser based, and delivered via APIs into the likes of WebSphere Portal Server), there's no OS-level scope for being user-friendly, or not. Having done Linux migration of agent desktops on a number of occasions, it's non-problematic.

Re:Cool! Brings back highschool memories. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-19 09:34 · Score: 0

The Legion of Doom... which back in the 80s/early 90s was the single greatest hacking crew out there. Before computers and script kiddies were ubiquitous. Here's a little hacking history http://www.streettech.com/bcp/BCPtext/StreetTech/S treetTech101.html Anyway, I didn't go to Hawaii Loa.

thank you by zogger · 2004-09-19 10:08 · Score: 1

Thankyou, Mr. or Ms coward, that ltsp page looks like the info I was after. I have a small stack of old boxes (pent 1's) with tiny ridiculous HDDs and only floppies, no Cd drives, which make them almost useless, but perhaps I can do a project with them using this info and one decent box added in as the server.

Your ignorance is astounding by emarkp · 2004-09-19 10:10 · Score: 1

That's what happened in CA in 1971. See Serrano v. Priest. And we all know how much better it is here in CA, right?

The real change is that now people don't believe they can do anything for their schools. They either move to an area with a good school, or turn to homeschooling/private schools.

Or they're too poor do do any of the above. Or they just plain don't care.

Ditto for Linux by leonbrooks · 2004-09-19 12:17 · Score: 1

20 x Mandrake 9.1 computers, no special effort, "ghosting" done once only with a NetCat-and-dd one-liner, zero maintenance. Really should spend an hour URPMI'ing them all before 10.1 gets released.

--
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing

Walked past a new internet cafe on Friday... by leonbrooks · 2004-09-19 12:31 · Score: 1

...past three screens of a six-screen MS-Windows-XP setup, all shiny new boxes with (could be wrong, read the number at long range) 512MB of RAM and 19" LCD screens; things I noticed compared with a Linux-based Internet cafe I set up recently were:

of the three screens I saw, one had a frozen screen-saver (marquee), one was in use, one had a Norton anti-virus all-is-well report that the attendant couldn't make go away (clicking on yes, no or the little X blinked the dialog, and it was back pretty much instantly; she was trying the Task Manager as I walked out of sight); and
they had no CD drives, USB or firewire sockets exposed (main box was sealed away somewhere)
Despite the hardware costing (I guess) about double per station, the working machine still had odd hiccups and pauses in what it was doing (the guy using it was checking the RAM, presumably to see if it had enough for what he was doing).

I felt much better about my little Linux system after that.

--
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing

What _are_ you on about? by leonbrooks · 2004-09-19 12:39 · Score: 1

Please don't let users mess with systems! Install drivers? Yeeargh! How many times d'you think they'll install the right driver? Nothing like have a user update a working ATI driver to a version which is broken on your hardware, is there?

WRT killing tasks, have you not seen stuff like GNOME System Monitor? All GUI and shiny, and the worst they can do on Linux is shoot one of their own tasks in the head. If your X is prone to locking up, either fix the #### thing or leave them Ctrl-Alt-BackSpace to play with.

Installing software is easy, you just open RPMdrake, type the root password (which I wouldn't give the user in a pink fit), select the packages you want and click "Install". If you do want the user installing packages (ie, you like extra work and don't mind frustration when they uninstall XFree86 and all dependencies because they can't see a use for it) then run RPMdrake SUID. SuSE, Debian, Red Hat all have similar pointy-clicky things.

--
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing

Re: wearing-flipflops-until-age-18 dept. by Daengbo · 2004-09-19 13:41 · Score: 1

Hawaiian creole language
Pidgin you fockin pottagee. Oh, yeah, and say "We wen' call 'em sleepahs, fuckin' haole." It sounds less like you're one yourself. Haha.
Hang loose, braddah.

--
Put identity in the browser.

As an A4 PS, PDF, SXW (OpenOffice) by leonbrooks · 2004-09-19 13:57 · Score: 1

Ten-second job here, formatted for A4 and written in English.

Available in PS, PDF and SXW - so you can redo your own Letter or odd-sized verion. Uses font from LarabieFonts. Change "honour" to "honor" to get American instead of English.

--
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing

Re:Real world vs. fanboy fantasies by innosent · 2004-09-19 15:04 · Score: 2, Informative

While he certainly has an argument with no merit, he does remind me of several studies (which you see mentioned in MS sponsored ads) where Windows Server 2003 out-of-the-box does beat a few Linux distros out-of-the-box. This is not necessarily an issue for Linux users, but it should be for the (commercial) vendors, since unknowing CIOs/CTOs/VPs might take those studies as the final answer.
I have little doubt that Server 2003 could beat the standard Linux server distros (SLES, RHAS) straight out of the box. MS has decided that they should excel in those tasks with the out-of-box configuration, while the Linux vendors have not, instead focusing on more general tweaks. Any experienced Linux SysAdmin could beat any of those benchmarks with about 5-10 minutes of work, but for obvious reasons, the studies MS uses to advertise don't include that disclaimer. Some of the tweaks that make a great webserver don't make a great file server, database server, firewall, etc. Systems on both sides should be customized for the benchmark, then benchmarked. Out-of-box benchmarks are almost completely worthless, unless you just want to buy something and never touch it, just expecting it to run forever, which is not how any decent IT department works.

Back on topic, it's easy to see how they could save money. Where I work, we purchase several workstations for client use, and recently purchased AMD Sempron 2200+ systems with 128MB RAM and 40GB HDDs, no CD or floppy (just like a school would want), for $160 each. Add in another $65 for 17" monitors, $5 for keyboard and mouse, and you've got complete systems for $230, with Linux adding $0 to each one. Considering that Windows XP OEM rates are about $80/copy for the Home version, is it really worth spending half as much on the OS as you spent on the computer to run it? Every 2 copies of Windows is another computer without monitor, keyboard, and mouse, and every 3 copies is another complete system.

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--That's the point of being root, you can do anything you want, even if it's stupid.

Bah by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 03:47 · Score: 0

Yeah, it's good that they finally reconize the Linux community in schools, but there is a problem to this.

Those users who don't understand, or fully grasp the concepts behind Linux may not feel that the Operating System or the Open Source community is well enough supported for the student.

Heck, they might scrub the labs all together; although it would be nice to see them.

-Steve

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