IIRC Best Buy lost their contract with Apple because their sales reps were calling the computers junk and to some extents, rufusing to sell them. This behaivor was encuraged by the managment because the I Mac's didn't make as much cash as the rest.
This is where the organization has to take the responsibility. Sales reps don't get away with anything that an organization doesn't let them get away with.
As long as an organization focuses on the "hard sell" at the expense of alienating customers, vendors, etc., then it will lose rapports that prove *more* valuable in the long run.
At the same time, these sales idiots can really help out a floundering company.
This is a really good point. There has to be someone hitting the streets, seeing what the demand is for a product. (This is perhaps engineering's weakest spot: they often don't think about what someone using this for the first time might think. It's hard to take criticism on something that you've put a lot of hours into.)
I think that the best type of person for this job is one who knows all the technical limitations before suggesting something. In other words, if someone wants a certain functionality, they know ahead of time a ballpark figure of how much time it will take to add that.
Don't know what your direction is? Well, who's the one talking to the people who make decisions at the companies making contracts with you? The sales guy knows what your customers want to hear your product does...so you might as well just make it do it.
Knowing WHAT your customer wants to hear is an invaluable skill. But you've got to use it for *good* instead of *evil*. Make sure that that functionality is actually IN the product. Take the time to write up what the customer said, as well as what other functions they liked in *other* vendors.
It takes a certain type of sales person to inform everyone why they've lost these types of opportunities. Very few I've dealt with have taken the time to do so. Too many have the attention span of a 3 year old and don't consider giving those who support them the valuable feedback.
Of course, development of this type is totally unsupportable and encoruages the worst design imaginable. But it keeps you in business to strike with a really great product when you finally figure out what it is you want to do.
For companies to remain sharp and nimble, they HAVE to find novel ways of differentiating their products. Having a solid mechanism for customer/sales feedback in place is a good way to stay ahead of the curve.
Kind of reminds me of the dilbert comic where he talks about abusing sales people as it is the one thing he can do in his life where its ok to be rude and demeaning to people(some sales people desirve it).
That's one of my favorite strips, also. I am not normally a bitter person, but too many of the clowns that I work with bring out these traits in me. I am in a difficult position, because I too am a sales engineer. My job depends on their success, but I often think that the worse thing that could happen is if they do succeed and think that such behavior is merrited in the real world (or any other parallel universe for that matter!)
On a side note, the reason salespeople act the way they do for the most part is because it works. I always treated everyone with respect, but the salesguy constantly calls you once you express interest to force you to move on it else you forget or get distracted with something else (in sales your job is always on the line, sales is usually the first staff to get cut when times start to go bad).
I am extremely bothered by the leeway that many sales reps get in an organization (perhaps it's their compensation for being the first who are cut!). While I think that a large part of each sales commission should go to the sales rep who found the opportunity, it seems as if they are getting away with *more* things than the average engineer (such as expensing their own meals with each other). Engineers, in my experience, are FAR more likely to talk about work-related details outside of work. We thrive on details!
If you wan't to get the real deal on anything, go speak with the applications engineer who supports the sales staff, they will usually give you an idea of the true capabilities of the product. Never trust the marketing guy, he will stretch the truth far more than the sales staff.
This is what I do. First thing I ask for is their engineering counterpart's contact info. I immediately e-mail him/her with my questions, ask for white papers, etc. I only go back to the sales goon when I have specific $$$ questions regarding licensing and/or discounts.
Let's face it: most sales reps are parrots. They just "relay" information from customer to someone on the inside...from someone on the inside to customer. They're just a conduit that too often degrades the information as it passes through.
Lastly, if you are an engineer who can write and talk well and likes working with people, try sales or applications engineering at somepoint in your career. The money is VERY good. Besides you can always go back to your old job.
Agreed. There is a tremendous need for technical people who can make technology easy-to-use and non-threatening for the general public.
Perhaps the only thing that I hate *worse* than a sales goon is a techie is condenscending to those who aren't "in the know".
I unfortuantely see this type of mentality all the time with the IT fuckwads I've worked with. Perhaps it's because they realize that their MS certs will expire. (Then instead of being a dime a dozen, they will be a penny a dozen!)
They stay together because if you can single them out, it's easy to dominate someone as weak-spined as a sales rep. Grouping together for protection, to maintain their small, filthy place in life.
I've worked in several different sales environments and have always found that to be the case.
I look at it this way. If you really want to know the truth about something, why not go to the engineer, developer, etc. who is working on it? Too often these sales asswads get their information from each other. I see it all the time: one rep starts a rumor, the others tell it, it gets back to the rep who started it, then the originator QUOTES the others when he retells it again.
Has anyone stopped to ponder the sales culture that encourages this hype?
Show me a sales rep who is patient enough to sit down and listen to the specifics of what a product does and doesn't. I have worked in sales for a long time, and I've seen one, maybe two who can. (Oddly enough, these guys were ENGINEERS before they become sales clowns.)
Too many sales reps thrive on the intangible: possibility, maybes, etc. Put them in front of an Excel sheet (or WORSE) a white board, and you're REALLY in for a doosy. I see my own people committing these atrocities in meetings with customers. I then have to then gracefully butt in and "clarify" what the assclown has just promised.
It's also sick to see them all assemble together. These fuckwads get drunk and there's no stopping the information warpage. I have seen sales goons literally gut a company that once had a bright future.
There are lots of questions like that. Questions that are designed to test you on Microsoft doctrine, rather than the technical details.
I'd argue that it's good to know the doctrine. (See my post later in this thread.) Know what *they* consider to the be the right answer, but don't go so far as to drink the Coolaid.
Getting certifications is like increasing your dick size.
Having a bigger dick does NOT mean that you'll have more sex.
Having a bigger dick is not even a guarantee that you will be able to perform better sex.
Having a big dick may enhance certain aspects of your sex life with certain women, but it is no sweeping guarantee to anything else (like lifting heavy things with your dick like those monks on TV.)
Look at certifications at what they are: enough right answers to questions that vendors think are important. At the very least, having a MSyz cert could illustrate to you the blatant biases of Microsoft. (Answer: "Add more RAM") Knowing how vendors "think" about particular things could help you make some crucial decisions in how to deploy particular technologies in a big enterprise environment.
There are times, however, when (assuming I was an IS Manager) I would probably be hesitant to assign the average MCSE to design a particular architecture. I'd be afraid that s/he would not the broad networking and computing perspective to make something scalable.
There are times when I would NOT want a Linux assclown working under me. Depending how this person came across in an interview, I just might be afraid that this person would engage in some jihad against all MS-related things in my organization. I may not be ready to stir that turd.
Even "years experience" doesn't mean anything by itself. It's up to an IS Manager to grill the candidate on how exactly this person used this technical knowledge/experience to make their last corporate masters lots of money. If they can't answer this, then you need to look at another candidate.
I also have seen all sorts of guys come out of Microsoft Academy. One guy didn't know what UDP was. Another guys had no experience but was as sharp as hell with MS stuff (a skill that, in the right environment, can be worth gold!).
One must weigh about all these factors collectively. Certifications are such a small part of someone's value, and it's important to recognize their true place and purpose. If you're really interesting in getting a quality IT person, ask them creative questions:
"What does your home network look like?"
"What would you say to a user who told you to go fuck yourself?"
"Have you ever played with the registry?"
"What network/computing publications do you read regularly?"
"Draw me the most complex network you've ever worked on."
"Three men, traveling with their wives, came to a river. There they found one boat, but it could only carry two people at a time. Since all the husbands are extremely jealous, no woman can be left with a man unless her husband is present. How do they cross the river? (You can assume that each man has just one wife, and that each woman has one husband)."
As much as I hate Microsoft's anti-competitive antics, I think that their marketing department is brilliant. Think what they accomplish by giving their software "ordinary" names:
They give the impression that their software is accessible to the masses (which, to a large degree, it is).
The best way to make your product a household name is to derive it from a household name.
Words that people are already accustomed to using are non-threatening. (Think about all the weirdass company names that you can never remember how to pronounce, let alone spell.)
If Microsoft had picked a unique name besides "Windows", and another company ripped off the first letter and changed it to an "L", then perhaps Microsoft would have a leg to stand on.
If you're the type even considering how much stress a laptop can take, you should look into programs like Dell's CompleteCare Program. According to their website, it is "provides you repair or replacement of your Latitude or Inspiron notebook PC for any damage that is caused by accidents."
Not suprisingly, not covered in this program: Damage from fire, intentional damage (hammer marks), stolen unit, and normal wear.
I'm surprised that you didn't get any responses. One of my (as Scott Adams says) cow-orkers just updated her Monster.com resume...only to be bombarded by phone calls the next couple of days.
Keep in touch with all your previous coworkers (especially the talented ones you know are going somewhere). You have a much greater chance of getting an "in" through them than through a stranger.
Take pride in your resume. If a job is important enough to apply for, it is worth taking a few extra moments to tailor your resume specifically for that job.
Create an "interview folder". In mine, I put recommendations, Visio diagrams of networks that I have set up (and am comfortable maintaining), outlines of projects that I've seen from start to completion, a disk or screenshot of web pages I've done, etc. Most of the times I don't need these things, but I come prepared in case the conversation/interview goes in that direction.
Ask questions back. In fact, ask difficult questions. Keep asking until you get clear answers.
Anyone use headhunters? I'm skeptical that they aren't as selective as they need to be.
Slashdot Mirror
Don't know what your direction is? Well, who's the one talking to the people who make decisions at the companies making contracts with you? The sales guy knows what your customers want to hear your product does...so you might as well just make it do it.
Of course, development of this type is totally unsupportable and encoruages the worst design imaginable. But it keeps you in business to strike with a really great product when you finally figure out what it is you want to do.
That's one of my favorite strips, also. I am not normally a bitter person, but too many of the clowns that I work with bring out these traits in me. I am in a difficult position, because I too am a sales engineer. My job depends on their success, but I often think that the worse thing that could happen is if they do succeed and think that such behavior is merrited in the real world (or any other parallel universe for that matter!)
I am extremely bothered by the leeway that many sales reps get in an organization (perhaps it's their compensation for being the first who are cut!). While I think that a large part of each sales commission should go to the sales rep who found the opportunity, it seems as if they are getting away with *more* things than the average engineer (such as expensing their own meals with each other). Engineers, in my experience, are FAR more likely to talk about work-related details outside of work. We thrive on details!
This is what I do. First thing I ask for is their engineering counterpart's contact info. I immediately e-mail him/her with my questions, ask for white papers, etc. I only go back to the sales goon when I have specific $$$ questions regarding licensing and/or discounts.
Let's face it: most sales reps are parrots. They just "relay" information from customer to someone on the inside...from someone on the inside to customer. They're just a conduit that too often degrades the information as it passes through.
Agreed. There is a tremendous need for technical people who can make technology easy-to-use and non-threatening for the general public.
Perhaps the only thing that I hate *worse* than a sales goon is a techie is condenscending to those who aren't "in the know".
I unfortuantely see this type of mentality all the time with the IT fuckwads I've worked with. Perhaps it's because they realize that their MS certs will expire. (Then instead of being a dime a dozen, they will be a penny a dozen!)
That was a very SIMPLE, but FUN game for Sony Dreamcast!
Has anyone stopped to ponder the sales culture that encourages this hype?
Show me a sales rep who is patient enough to sit down and listen to the specifics of what a product does and doesn't. I have worked in sales for a long time, and I've seen one, maybe two who can. (Oddly enough, these guys were ENGINEERS before they become sales clowns.)
Too many sales reps thrive on the intangible: possibility, maybes, etc. Put them in front of an Excel sheet (or WORSE) a white board, and you're REALLY in for a doosy. I see my own people committing these atrocities in meetings with customers. I then have to then gracefully butt in and "clarify" what the assclown has just promised.
It's also sick to see them all assemble together. These fuckwads get drunk and there's no stopping the information warpage. I have seen sales goons literally gut a company that once had a bright future.
FYI, Here is OpenSSH's list of free recommended clients for interoperating with OpenSSH from Windows machines.
"The only easy day was yesterday."
"Yesterday was easy because it's over."
"A man with a strong stomach is a strong man."
I've known several SEAL "rejects" and dropouts (injuries, etc.), and these guys are more fit than I'll ever be! All these mofos have my respect.
Printable version of the article found here.
(This is a good starting place if you want to know the basics.)
Yep. I know what you mean.
There are lots of questions like that. Questions that are designed to test you on Microsoft doctrine, rather than the technical details.
I'd argue that it's good to know the doctrine. (See my post later in this thread.) Know what *they* consider to the be the right answer, but don't go so far as to drink the Coolaid.
Having a bigger dick does NOT mean that you'll have more sex.
Having a bigger dick is not even a guarantee that you will be able to perform better sex.
Having a big dick may enhance certain aspects of your sex life with certain women, but it is no sweeping guarantee to anything else (like lifting heavy things with your dick like those monks on TV.)
Look at certifications at what they are: enough right answers to questions that vendors think are important. At the very least, having a MSyz cert could illustrate to you the blatant biases of Microsoft. (Answer: "Add more RAM") Knowing how vendors "think" about particular things could help you make some crucial decisions in how to deploy particular technologies in a big enterprise environment.
There are times, however, when (assuming I was an IS Manager) I would probably be hesitant to assign the average MCSE to design a particular architecture. I'd be afraid that s/he would not the broad networking and computing perspective to make something scalable.
There are times when I would NOT want a Linux assclown working under me. Depending how this person came across in an interview, I just might be afraid that this person would engage in some jihad against all MS-related things in my organization. I may not be ready to stir that turd.
Even "years experience" doesn't mean anything by itself. It's up to an IS Manager to grill the candidate on how exactly this person used this technical knowledge/experience to make their last corporate masters lots of money. If they can't answer this, then you need to look at another candidate.
I also have seen all sorts of guys come out of Microsoft Academy. One guy didn't know what UDP was. Another guys had no experience but was as sharp as hell with MS stuff (a skill that, in the right environment, can be worth gold!).
One must weigh about all these factors collectively. Certifications are such a small part of someone's value, and it's important to recognize their true place and purpose. If you're really interesting in getting a quality IT person, ask them creative questions:
"What does your home network look like?"
"What would you say to a user who told you to go fuck yourself?"
"Have you ever played with the registry?"
"What network/computing publications do you read regularly?"
"Draw me the most complex network you've ever worked on."
"Three men, traveling with their wives, came to a river. There they found one boat, but it could only carry two people at a time. Since all the husbands are extremely jealous, no woman can be left with a man unless her husband is present. How do they cross the river? (You can assume that each man has just one wife, and that each woman has one husband)."
(You forgot that answer. That's Microsoft's answer to a lot of questions.)
They give the impression that their software is accessible to the masses (which, to a large degree, it is).
The best way to make your product a household name is to derive it from a household name.
Words that people are already accustomed to using are non-threatening. (Think about all the weirdass company names that you can never remember how to pronounce, let alone spell.)
If Microsoft had picked a unique name besides "Windows", and another company ripped off the first letter and changed it to an "L", then perhaps Microsoft would have a leg to stand on.
It is a gateway, leading men to watch more violent things like police chases, boxing matches, and hurricanes.
It changes values and attitudes such as desensitization and "tolerance" which leads to more depraved tornography.
There are reports in many urban areas of increased trailor parks around tornography outlets.
I work for Titan. Our particular division is the "System Technology Division".
This guide offers all sorts of good info on stopping unwanted mail, e-mail, and phone calls.
For what it is worth, here is the Federal Crime Code for Searching and Seizing Computers
and Obtaining Electronic Evidence
in Criminal Investigations.
There is also official and unofficial section on the redlined changes in the updated Patriot Act.
If you're the type even considering how much stress a laptop can take, you should look into programs like Dell's CompleteCare Program. According to their website, it is "provides you repair or replacement of your Latitude or Inspiron notebook PC for any damage that is caused by accidents."
Not suprisingly, not covered in this program: Damage from fire, intentional damage (hammer marks), stolen unit, and normal wear.
Here's the REAL story about ping.
(Check out the first Spotlight Review by El Segundo.)
I'm surprised that you didn't get any responses. One of my (as Scott Adams says) cow-orkers just updated her Monster.com resume...only to be bombarded by phone calls the next couple of days.
Ask this same women what she would think if a guy asked her out...AFTER propositioning everyone else in the bar first.
"Hey baby...wanna f---ok, that's cool...hey you over THERE, wanna f---...no?...ok, how about you, then?"
One good headhunter is worth a million mediocre headhunters ones.
/. readers look for in a headhunter?
What do
Anyone use headhunters? I'm skeptical that they aren't as selective as they need to be.
In fact, someone who applied to Microsoft told me that he was given a puzzle to complete during the interview.
Good point.
And those who come here from other countries will most likely be the ones who would really kick ass. How could we *not* recruit them?