'I love freedom of speech, human rights, and democracy'
Why does the author assume that democracy goes hand in hand with freedom of speech and human rights?
Democracy has time and time again show itself the worst enemy of the most basic human right of all, the right to keep the property your create for yourself. (see graph on: http://haxor.dk/articles/denmarksucks.html ).
Furthermore, most democracies in the western world have anti-racism laws. But if you can only speak the "right" things, that is non-racist and non-blasphemous words, then you dont' have freedom of speech. What will it be - you can't have you cake and eat it too.
"... a pundit on the BBC suggested that with Kyoto compliance it would take the UK until 2056 to achieve the same level of prosperity it would otherwise attain in 2053.
I don't know the level our civilization will achieve, ignoring global pollution, by 2056, but I'm pretty much sure about the 2500 civilization level - It will be extremely low, perhaps bedrock low."
Do you have anything to back that up, or is it just another Civilization player speaking up?
"It doesn't matter whether a country's economy benifits from this. The safety of our Evironment is more important than the economy of a country."
Sorry to break this to you, but the environment isn't significantly unburdened by Kyoto. Kyoto is nothing but , excuse the pun, hot air. Do read some of the IPCC's own assesments on the miniscule difference the Kyoto accord will make.
Or in short: The alleged difference Kyoto will make is less than 2% of the claimed global waring by 2100. Compare that to the significant economic impact such eco-fundamentalist laws will have.
This is the same way as Christian Fundamentalists in Kentucky et al describe Darwin's Theory of Evolution."
Fallacy. The critics of claimed anthropogenic global warming do so with science in hand, nok like some creationist quackery.
"Quick Summary: Everyone in the world thinks that someone has to be done about pollution. Except the biggest polluter."
Quick retort: You still need to conclusively prove that CO2 emmissions harm the climate and econoly, which still havent been done!
snip
"The US Approach of "Build Bigger SUVs and let our kids sort out the mess" is a disgrace to the 21st Century on a par with any other act of wilful destruction that can be conceived."
Bull. Production is productive, and not destructive as some of the planet cult members would have us believe. CO2 emissions, even by some gas guzzlers, still isn't harmful or destructive. Your insinuation still doesnt make it so.
"The US is deliberately increasing its pollution rates and refusing to do anything about it."
CO2 emissions aren't pollution.
" This already causes increases in deaths in the US an abroad due to breathing disorders and toxic poisoning."
Which isn't caused by CO2, but by lead and particles in car exhausts. A completely different ballgame.
"And if its about the economy, how about trimming that massive debt George ?"
"... No one is immune. Microsoft Corp. Chairman Bill Gates discovered spyware on his personal machine not long ago...."
No one immune?
Pardon me, but WRONG! I'm on a Mac. I am damn well immune, thank you. I have no problems on my Safari og Firefox or Camino. I AM immune from spyware and malware.
"It is quite striking that wherever there's a predominently american crowd, the gut reaction to anything global warming related is denial - even with a comparably smart crowd like this one.
I sincerely hope we're not at the brink of self inflicted global destruction. But are you guys so addicted to your gas guzzlers and inefficient houses that you refuse to even discuss your behaviour's more or less possible/probable consequences?"
It's also quite striking that whenever there is an environmental discussion, there will also always be some to claim that the ones objecting to kneejerk cries of imminent doom of the planet will be labellet af stupid SUV-driing americans and corporate whores.
"You clearly have a strong grasp of the english language, which is the only real thing that America requires of anyone to be accepted."
Thank you Lee. I have already considered either Montana or New Hampshire.
"I'm shocked at the tax rate you have to pay in Denmark, but not suprised. Socialism is just another form of communism. Communism is a philosophy founded upon the insane belief that because some people are able to rise to greater socio-economic heights than others, that everyone must be forcibly kept at the same level."
True, but a more basic premise of the various forms of collectivism (which both socialism and communism is) is that the individual does not own himself or the fruits of his labor, and that the individual that acts in his own best interest does so on the basis of harming other. Neither of these assumptions are correct.
" This is their idea of "equality." In truth it doesn't work, even if it were somehow a good idea, which it isn't. Instead what happens is that those who enforce this "equality" set themselves up so that they are above the system. Party elites in the Soviet Union had special stores where they could buy things, including items from the west that your average Russian would likely never lay eyes on, let alone possess.
Socialism does not try to prevent those with greater ability, effort, or dumb luck, from getting ahead per-se. Instead it simply extorts the fruits of their labor from them and uses it to support those who are more lacking in ability, effort, and dumb luck."
That is, in practise, the same as prevention of ability. When you rob a person of the outcome of his work, you rob his will to work. Pretty simple, actually.
"Both systems attempt to homogenize a nation's wealth, which is ultimately destructive. It is far better to work to maximize the opportunity for each person to rise to greater heights. Those who have the ability and inclination will do so. Those who lack these qualities aren't worth a plug nickle anyway. The only danger that exists is the ultimate formation of an plutocracy, which is what the US suffers from to some extent.
Lee"
Read mises.org. The problem in the US is what Nader correctly calls "Corporate socialism". Not that i agree with the guy on most issues, thoigh.
"As a fellow dane i wouldn't mind him/her moving to the states, one less "I want it all and I give a crap about the rest" kind of ppl here.
As another fellow Dane I support you completely. Besides, so what if the marginal tax is 62%? If you reach that tax bracket you're pretty well off."
Ah, the old "you have enough $$$ already, hand 'em over".
Sorry, my being "well off" is NOT an excuse for you to confiscate my property.
" And if you become sick and unable to work, you know that you will never be without health care, a roof over your head, and food on the table."
Have you ever heard of private health insurance? It can even be had in Denmark for less than 1000US$/yr.
" In a system with privatized health care, the health insurers will try to dump you when you get sick."
So may, and then they will have to face the courts. And the marketplace.
Spare us the scaremongering, please.
" Do you have the strength to fight a court battle when you are ill?"
Oh, lots of people have to do that already in the current systems on both DK and USA.
" And even if your health insurance doesn't screw you, will you have the money needed to send your children off to university if you are too ill to work?"
It's inconcieveable to you that
1) you kids may not WANT an Univ education? 2) the kids can provide for themselves?
"In the US, you live in constant financial danger, because noone will be there for you when you need it. "
You're ignorant. The USA spends more money per capita on public healtcare than even the Danish system does.
"Therefore it's important to work as hard as you can to save up. Since money is needed for basic survival, taxes in the US are seen as the government causing a risk for your basic survival. It is no wonder that Americans complain so much about taxes."
Perhaps because taxes are also robbery, whether your language is Danish and English.
Normally i dont respond to AC's but I'll make an exception.
"You immediately start ranting about communism/socialism and how it doesnt work. I wouldn't characterise the danish system as communism, though im sure some americans would:). However it doesn't really matter what you call it, the danish system does work. Denmark is one of the richest countries in the world, have some of the highest living standards, hardly any poor ppl, 100% literacy, free healthcare, free education and a good economy."
Healthcare is not free. Neither is education, or any of the other things you seem to take for granted. What you call "free" is paid in the extreme level of taxation in my previous post. Paid to a system where you are robbed of choice, and told to accept what you get (the quality of the various welfare services are btw, at best, mediocre).
Denmark is not communist in the sense of Marx's original thesis, but it certainly is nearly communist if you take a look at a Lorentz-curve for Denmark, and if you consider how little control you have of your own privately earned funds.
You can always claim that the system "works", and if you completely disregard the quality of the output, plus the negative impact on personl freedoms, you're right.
However, I am NOT prepared to blindly accept that I have essentially become a wageslave for the state.
But, more importantly, taxes are even lower. Most western "welfare states" or nations in general have marginal tax rates of 40% or higher. In Denmark (where I live), the marginal tax (before sales taxes) is 62%.
Gross wage is one thing, wage after the taxman has been in your paycheque is another thing entirely.
I'm not in the least surprised to hear that people are moving to India. The neverending meddling in our personal lives and property because of the state is just too much.
"Global Temperatures Will Continue To Rise as a result of CO2 emissions even if 100% of the world wholeheartedly adopted Kyoto TODAY."
Absolute bullshit. Even the IPCC and the various IPCC reports Kyoto stems from admits that a fully ratified and supported Kyoto will make a negleible difference in anthropogenic global warming. And the anthropogenig (human-made) global warming is a willy nilly 0,38% of the complete global greenhous egas contributions.
Try researching what you're talking about before talking about it. Here's just a tiny bit to chew on: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/17/15110/5194
"How can this possibly be good news for nuclear energy? A nuclear reactor produces huge amounts of heat - hence the huge, highly visible cooling towers. This point generally gets ignored, since people are far more concerned with other side effects of nuclear power - but any unbiased study of the total global side effect of each kind of energy generation is going to show wind ranking far above nuclear."
I call bullshit. There are no such unbiased studies to show that.
Plus, the energy emitted into the atmosphere from cooling towers is zilch compared to the natural energy coming from sunlight. The Earth recieves around 1 kilowatt of energy per SQUARE METER from the sun's light. Don't tell me a puny nucear reacto will make much difference compared to that.
"President Bush strongly opposes any treaty or policy that would cause the loss of a single American job... unless it's tax breaks for corporations that move jobs overseas."
Take a while to consider what it is that inspires these corp's to outsource their jobs in the first place.
The Kyoto Accord is nothing but a clever plan to redistribute funds from the industrialised nations to the developing nations under cover of alleged CO2 "pollution". This happens by assigning artifically low CO2 quotas to the western (industrailised) nations, which as essentially unrealistic and unreachable. LUCKILY, Kyoto contains provisions so that our evil, filthy rich nations can buy extra CO2 quotas from the poor, abused developing nations. (aha!) Can you see where this is going ?
The problem with the premise of Kyoto is that Co2 is not pollution in any sense of the word, but a natural part of organic life and human economic activity, at that. Dumping uranium in the artic sea, that is pollution. Oil spills in the coastal areas, that is pollution. Heavy metal emmissions from coal power plants, thats pollution. But dang, dont ever come and tell me that it's pollution when i take a breath of air. And keep your mitts out of my wallet while you're at it, thank you so much.
Slashdot Mirror
'I love freedom of speech, human rights, and democracy'
Why does the author assume that democracy goes hand in hand with freedom of speech and human rights?
Democracy has time and time again show itself the worst enemy of the most basic human right of all, the right to keep the property your create for yourself. (see graph on: http://haxor.dk/articles/denmarksucks.html ).
Furthermore, most democracies in the western world have anti-racism laws. But if you can only speak the "right" things, that is non-racist and non-blasphemous words, then you dont' have freedom of speech. What will it be - you can't have you cake and eat it too.
"I can't tell you how much better that makes me feel.
Next you're going to tell me the possibility of a resonance cascade is extremely remote and that you're seeing predictable phase arrays."
Nitpicking, but shouldn't that be "phaser rays" ?
This was rated flamebait, but should have been rated insightful.
Agree 100%.
"... a pundit on the BBC suggested that with Kyoto compliance it would take the UK until 2056 to achieve the same level of prosperity it would otherwise attain in 2053.
I don't know the level our civilization will achieve, ignoring global pollution, by 2056, but I'm pretty much sure about the 2500 civilization level - It will be extremely low, perhaps bedrock low."
Do you have anything to back that up, or is it just another Civilization player speaking up?
"It doesn't matter whether a country's economy benifits from this. The safety of our Evironment is more important than the economy of a country."
Sorry to break this to you, but the environment isn't significantly unburdened by Kyoto. Kyoto is nothing but , excuse the pun, hot air. Do read some of the IPCC's own assesments on the miniscule difference the Kyoto accord will make.
Or in short: The alleged difference Kyoto will make is less than 2% of the claimed global waring by 2100. Compare that to the significant economic impact such eco-fundamentalist laws will have.
"The controversial Kyoto Treaty
This is the same way as Christian Fundamentalists in Kentucky et al describe Darwin's Theory of Evolution."
Fallacy. The critics of claimed anthropogenic global warming do so with science in hand, nok like some creationist quackery.
"Quick Summary: Everyone in the world thinks that someone has to be done about pollution. Except the biggest polluter."
Quick retort: You still need to conclusively prove that CO2 emmissions harm the climate and econoly, which still havent been done!
snip
"The US Approach of "Build Bigger SUVs and let our kids sort out the mess" is a disgrace to the 21st Century on a par with any other act of wilful destruction that can be conceived."
Bull. Production is productive, and not destructive as some of the planet cult members would have us believe. CO2 emissions, even by some gas guzzlers, still isn't harmful or destructive. Your insinuation still doesnt make it so.
"The US is deliberately increasing its pollution rates and refusing to do anything about it."
CO2 emissions aren't pollution.
" This already causes increases in deaths in the US an abroad due to breathing disorders and toxic poisoning."
Which isn't caused by CO2, but by lead and particles in car exhausts. A completely different ballgame.
"And if its about the economy, how about trimming that massive debt George ?"
Irrelevant for this discussion, though I agree.
Theres ample RAM bus band width (no pun intended). It's RAM latency where the improvement is needed.
True, but at least it should it likely that CAN-SPAM has been ineffective in combating the spam problem.
"... No one is immune. Microsoft Corp. Chairman Bill Gates discovered spyware on his personal machine not long ago. ..."
No one immune?
Pardon me, but WRONG! I'm on a Mac. I am damn well immune, thank you. I have no problems on my Safari og Firefox or Camino. I AM immune from spyware and malware.
Even when they spend your money on collecting dirt on you, they STILL can't get it right. Sheesh.
Moles found to be living underground. Film at eleven.
How is this relevant to /. readers? They're not going to use that fertility for anything anyway... ;)
"It is quite striking that wherever there's a predominently american crowd, the gut reaction to anything global warming related is denial - even with a comparably smart crowd like this one.
I sincerely hope we're not at the brink of self inflicted global destruction. But are you guys so addicted to your gas guzzlers and inefficient houses that you refuse to even discuss your behaviour's more or less possible/probable consequences?"
It's also quite striking that whenever there is an environmental discussion, there will also always be some to claim that the ones objecting to kneejerk cries of imminent doom of the planet will be labellet af stupid SUV-driing americans and corporate whores.
"You clearly have a strong grasp of the english language, which is the only real thing that America requires of anyone to be accepted."
Thank you Lee. I have already considered either Montana or New Hampshire.
"I'm shocked at the tax rate you have to pay in Denmark, but not suprised. Socialism is just another form of communism. Communism is a philosophy founded upon the insane belief that because some people are able to rise to greater socio-economic heights than others, that everyone must be forcibly kept at the same level."
True, but a more basic premise of the various forms of collectivism (which both socialism and communism is) is that the individual does not own himself or the fruits of his labor, and that the individual that acts in his own best interest does so on the basis of harming other. Neither of these assumptions are correct.
" This is their idea of "equality." In truth it doesn't work, even if it were somehow a good idea, which it isn't. Instead what happens is that those who enforce this "equality" set themselves up so that they are above the system. Party elites in the Soviet Union had special stores where they could buy things, including items from the west that your average Russian would likely never lay eyes on, let alone possess.
Socialism does not try to prevent those with greater ability, effort, or dumb luck, from getting ahead per-se. Instead it simply extorts the fruits of their labor from them and uses it to support those who are more lacking in ability, effort, and dumb luck."
That is, in practise, the same as prevention of ability. When you rob a person of the outcome of his work, you rob his will to work. Pretty simple, actually.
"Both systems attempt to homogenize a nation's wealth, which is ultimately destructive. It is far better to work to maximize the opportunity for each person to rise to greater heights. Those who have the ability and inclination will do so. Those who lack these qualities aren't worth a plug nickle anyway. The only danger that exists is the ultimate formation of an plutocracy, which is what the US suffers from to some extent.
Lee"
Read mises.org. The problem in the US is what Nader correctly calls "Corporate socialism". Not that i agree with the guy on most issues, thoigh.
"As a fellow dane i wouldn't mind him/her moving to the states, one less "I want it all and I give a crap about the rest" kind of ppl here.
As another fellow Dane I support you completely. Besides, so what if the marginal tax is 62%? If you reach that tax bracket you're pretty well off."
Ah, the old "you have enough $$$ already, hand 'em over".
Sorry, my being "well off" is NOT an excuse for you to confiscate my property.
" And if you become sick and unable to work, you know that you will never be without health care, a roof over your head, and food on the table."
Have you ever heard of private health insurance? It can even be had in Denmark for less than 1000US$/yr.
" In a system with privatized health care, the health insurers will try to dump you when you get sick."
So may, and then they will have to face the courts. And the marketplace.
Spare us the scaremongering, please.
" Do you have the strength to fight a court battle when you are ill?"
Oh, lots of people have to do that already in the current systems on both DK and USA.
" And even if your health insurance doesn't screw you, will you have the money needed to send your children off to university if you are too ill to work?"
It's inconcieveable to you that
1) you kids may not WANT an Univ education?
2) the kids can provide for themselves?
"In the US, you live in constant financial danger, because noone will be there for you when you need it. "
You're ignorant. The USA spends more money per capita on public healtcare than even the Danish system does.
"Therefore it's important to work as hard as you can to save up. Since money is needed for basic survival, taxes in the US are seen as the government causing a risk for your basic survival. It is no wonder that Americans complain so much about taxes."
Perhaps because taxes are also robbery, whether your language is Danish and English.
Normally i dont respond to AC's but I'll make an exception.
:). However it doesn't really matter what you call it, the danish system does work. Denmark is one of the richest countries in the world, have some of the highest living standards, hardly any poor ppl, 100% literacy, free healthcare, free education and a good economy."
"You immediately start ranting about communism/socialism and how it doesnt work. I wouldn't characterise the danish system as communism, though im sure some americans would
Healthcare is not free. Neither is education, or any of the other things you seem to take for granted. What you call "free" is paid in the extreme level of taxation in my previous post. Paid to a system where you are robbed of choice, and told to accept what you get (the quality of the various welfare services are btw, at best, mediocre).
Denmark is not communist in the sense of Marx's original thesis, but it certainly is nearly communist if you take a look at a Lorentz-curve for Denmark, and if you consider how little control you have of your own privately earned funds.
You can always claim that the system "works", and if you completely disregard the quality of the output, plus the negative impact on personl freedoms, you're right.
However, I am NOT prepared to blindly accept that I have essentially become a wageslave for the state.
"The salaries are mediocre..."
But, more importantly, taxes are even lower. Most western "welfare states" or nations in general have marginal tax rates of 40% or higher. In Denmark (where I live), the marginal tax (before sales taxes) is 62%.
Gross wage is one thing, wage after the taxman has been in your paycheque is another thing entirely.
I'm not in the least surprised to hear that people are moving to India. The neverending meddling in our personal lives and property because of the state is just too much.
Depends on whether the switch is ON or OFF.
No, wait. That was if you had blind people doing it.
"Global Temperatures Will Continue To Rise as a result of CO2 emissions even if 100% of the world wholeheartedly adopted Kyoto TODAY."
4
Absolute bullshit. Even the IPCC and the various IPCC reports Kyoto stems from admits that a fully ratified and supported Kyoto will make a negleible difference in anthropogenic global warming. And the anthropogenig (human-made) global warming is a willy nilly 0,38% of the complete global greenhous egas contributions.
Try researching what you're talking about before talking about it. Here's just a tiny bit to chew on: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/17/15110/519
"How can this possibly be good news for nuclear energy? A nuclear reactor produces huge amounts of heat - hence the huge, highly visible cooling towers. This point generally gets ignored, since people are far more concerned with other side effects of nuclear power - but any unbiased study of the total global side effect of each kind of energy generation is going to show wind ranking far above nuclear."
I call bullshit. There are no such unbiased studies to show that.
Plus, the energy emitted into the atmosphere from cooling towers is zilch compared to the natural energy coming from sunlight. The Earth recieves around 1 kilowatt of energy per SQUARE METER from the sun's light. Don't tell me a puny nucear reacto will make much difference compared to that.
Pardon, but I am no conservative.
Sorry to shatter your preconceptions.
"President Bush strongly opposes any treaty or policy that would cause the loss of a single American job ... unless it's tax breaks for corporations that move jobs overseas."
Take a while to consider what it is that inspires these corp's to outsource their jobs in the first place.
And no this, is not a defense of Bush.
The Kyoto Accord is nothing but a clever plan to redistribute funds from the industrialised nations to the developing nations under cover of alleged CO2 "pollution". This happens by assigning artifically low CO2 quotas to the western (industrailised) nations, which as essentially unrealistic and unreachable. LUCKILY, Kyoto contains provisions so that our evil, filthy rich nations can buy extra CO2 quotas from the poor, abused developing nations. (aha!) Can you see where this is going ?
The problem with the premise of Kyoto is that Co2 is not pollution in any sense of the word, but a natural part of organic life and human economic activity, at that. Dumping uranium in the artic sea, that is pollution. Oil spills in the coastal areas, that is pollution. Heavy metal emmissions from coal power plants, thats pollution. But dang, dont ever come and tell me that it's pollution when i take a breath of air. And keep your mitts out of my wallet while you're at it, thank you so much.
Is this the same DOOM III game that John Carmack went on stage at MacWorld to present a few years ago, saying that would be out for the Mac, first?
What a crock....