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Spam and Spyware Too Much for Some Users
stewart_maximus writes "Spam and spyware is annoying to everyone, but some users are giving up on the Internet (mirror). Any Slashdot readers know someone who pulled the plug in frustration? Any advice for frustrated users, especially non-technical users?"
I think I would prefer to give up air and water first.
Yes, get off the internet. It was better before you got here, a decade or so ago.
Now, I've got some sites to gopher!
Oh, there's lots of great things to see and do on the 'net, but there's so much predation by more scum than even Mos Eisley would see on a good day that newbies must be inoculated before exposing themselves to it.
A firewall, virus scanning and quite a lot of gorm, to avoid spam scams. I'm almost to the point of telling, not merely suggesting, people to skip it if there isn't some damn good reason to be on the 'net.
Oh, and don't use Microsoft Explorer or Outlook or <Marvin Martian Voice> you'll be sorry, very sorry indeed.</Marvin Martian Voice> Getting on the 'net with good tools is a must and keeping up on them is also a must. Some degree of technical understanding is also essential, to identify when something is out of the ordinary, i.e. that request to verify your bank account goes to some ip address instead of yourback.com and where to go to keep up on the latest tools and information to protect oneself.
In the end, visiting or maintaining a presence on the internet is a job, not just an adventure, which requires some effort by the user to protect themselves.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
infested with pop ups and are known for spyware
yeah we know, it's called internet explorer
~/.sig: No such file or directory
This is a bad thing?
I can feel the Internet's collective IQ rising...
For the last 2 weeks i've been trying MS Antispywaree tails.aspx?Fa milyID=321cd7a2-6a57-4c57-a8bd-dbf62eda9671&displa ylang=en&Hash=5BMW635
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d
And i must say, it works easyer then ad-aware or Spybot. And works BETTER then ad-aware and spybot..
Just a thought..
What would you do without a monitor? Sit and look stupid behind a keyboard and a mouse
get ur c|@Iis cheap here. Also r0l3x watches, v|agr@, and h0t 433n 5lutz.
www.ineedabusinessmodel.com
Disclaimer: I don't use Macs.
You don't have an excuse now. Get the minimac. It will suffice for many people (sure, _some_ people just have to have those silly apps that only work in windows, for them, the future is not so bright).
The choice is obvious.
This
Get Firefox.
i know of quite a few people that have not bothered with the internet because of spam/ads/popups. They are all not very coputer literate not knowing how to remove.
The internet experience doesn't have to be this way, but when the powers that be (Microsoft, mostly) sit on their laurels and allow the situation to degenerate, what hope is there?
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori
Easy to install, easy to use and they handle almost all of the problems that end users will run into.
1. Buy a mac or other non-windows machine
2. Use a browser with pop-up and ad blocking capablility.
3.
4. Profit from the wealth of information on the web.
It's even worse when you encounter the opposite... Those who refuse to give up the Internet even though they've got hundreds of virii and spyware programs on their system.
A couple of months ago, I went into my dry cleaner and they said they couldn't take credit cards that day. The reason? Their credit card system (PCs on the Internet) wasn't working because of a virus. I thought about giving them a lecture on keeping credit transactions off the public Internet, but knew it wouldn't do any good so just paid cash and left.....
There's probably quite a few... but since they're no longer on the 'Net, they can't tell us :)
OK, I'll bite. /. how to deal with spyware?
Seriously, who comes and asks
And why do the "editors" let crap like this trickle in?
I like a good MS bashing as much as the next guy, but this is too easy. (It's no secret that I'm a Mac and FireFox fanboi.)
If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
Why in my day we used to use telnet to get to iscabbs.
We didn't have any of this fancy spam or spyware of which you speak. If we wanted spam, we had to log off, go outside, and walk to the 7-11 in three feet of snow, uphill, both ways.
*grumbles*
-[joke removed for your safety]-
I am not giving up as a user, but yesterday I have announced the closing of my hosting services (that I run as a side business) because I am tired of being trying to be hacked, and people exploiting scripts on the server, and running worms, and trying to DoS my server, and trying to flood other servers... I have way better things to do with my life than trying to protect my little server from punks out there...
What's the answer? Well, you could have pushed Linux until you said non-technical. Otherwise this thread could pretty much just be an ad for the Apple Mac Mini or even the iMac G5.
No, I won't add links to those. They're everywhere this week. And yes, I want one. Either one.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
Clicky
El Reg mentions the LA Times article as a "must-read feature".
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
Seriously. No viruses, no spyware, no hassles to get up and running (Sorry, Linux). A non-technical user would do well to spend a few extra dollars on a machine that isn't going to make them throw up their hands and quit the internet for good.
get a mac! Popup blockers work just the same. There's pretty much no such thing as spyware or virii.
I stopped usign the internet years ago. Now I only use this new invention called the World Wide Web. Oh yeah, and I use e-mail, too. But as long as I avoid that nasty internet thingy, I know I'll be OK...
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
I can see your average user getting pretty bent out of shape over spam and spyware. But your average Slashdotter is probably aware of the tools that can be used to combat these things. Yes, they're both annoying, but they can be minimized to the point of being trivial.
What has me ready to give up on the internet is that you can't play a single fucking multiplayer game anywhere without being inundated by a bunch of hostile, barely-literate smacktards.
1. Don't use windows.
2. Don't use IE.
3. Disconnect when not in use.
4. Don't use Windows.
For the first time in ages, I can say this with a perfectly straight face and without reservation:
Get a Mac.
They're affordable, they're stable, they're powerful, they're easy-to-use, they're resilient against infection, they come with excellent software, there are some great games available, and yes, Virginia, they'll even work with your multi-button mouse.
For the basic user, what else is there?
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
homer: "So son what have you learned from this,...?"
bart: "life's hard, don't bother,..."
homer: "wonderful,.."
I guess you think AutoCAD and ArcGIS are "silly apps." I know Mac people like to use their computer to make a fashion statement, but some people use computers to do work.
...don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.
In Soviet United States, users are too much for spam and spyware.
Regards,
Kilgore Trout, CEO
Easy Instructions:
:)
a) Download Firefox.
b) Download anti-spyware (ad-aware, Spybot)
c) Get off the internet.
d) Run the anti-spyware to make sure your machine is 100% virus and spyware free.
e) Activate your winxp firewall.
f) install Firefox.
Ta-da!
i know everyone is going to say this but two things immediately leap out at me.
1) don't use windows, for chrissakes. how many people out there in the world don't know that there are alternatives? is it really that many? is apple's media saturation here in the bay area completely nonexistent anywhere else?
2) the solution isn't legislation -- it's people making crappy products. if toyota made a car that constantly ran into trees, the solution wouldn't be banning trees, it would be making toyota make some good friggin' cars.
lord stuff like this makes me pissy.
go get it
obviously, they haven't tried the internet with a fresh load of xp, updated of course, with firefox.
i don't even clean spyware anymore, i just format and reinstall...it takes less time.
Is this a post to Slashdot, or the first page of a fantasy novel? Gorm? What the hell is Gorm?
Call me a troll, whatever.
I use to fix friends/relatives PCs all the time with their problems.
Then spyware just went amuck.
I tell people now to just buy an apple. They most likely won't call me for help with PC issues.
I myself am sick of the spyware crap that's out there infecting PCs. I am on the road to going 100% mac.
I don't see Microsoft fixing these issues, so I just tell people buy an Apple.
A fool and his(her) money are soon parted. I say the world is better off without these morons clogging the internet with their "me too" mentalities.
Honestly, since I've installed Linux (of the Gentoo flavor) Life has been a breeze as far as popups/spyware/viruses. The one downside is the lack of many (not any) games that are good. But... since these people resorted to using their machines as utilities for sorting photos, typing documents, Linux is great at that, they probably won't miss the games anyway.
-Jesse
Nothing says "unprofessional job" like wrinkles in your duct tape.
If we can just get these "people" to physically unplug their computer instead of just not using them, then there should be a noticeable decrease in the amount of spam and viruses sent from Zombie-Bot Computer Farms.
People too stupid to keep their computer spyware and virus free leaving the internet is a good thing.
... and in the DRM, bind them.
While spam and spyware be annoying to the point of pulling the plug, all it takes to circumvent these pests is some simple knowledge. For example, it's usually best to keep multiple email addresses: one for your 'main' that you only give out to trusted people, and one to several email accounts that are used when signing up to certain sites online. Another good way to stop spam is to use different versions of your name when you sign up to certain sites. For example, if you use "Jon" for one site, and "John" for another, you'll be able to tell where any spam came from and you'll know who to complain to. As for spyware, run Spyware: S&D and Adaware regularly; use Firefox; and be careful what you download.
You don't get spam on a Mac?
Yet you don't put your email in your sig strange.....
The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
1. Don't use windows. MiniMac = $500. Or get set up with Linux
2. If you are unwilling to get away from windows then don't use IE or OE.
3. Use a mail program with a good spam filter.
4. Use an ISP with a decent spam filter.
5. Use some kind of firewall (less important if you follow 1)
I don't know anyone who has actually given up on the net yet, but I know people who are denying themselves broadband because of the risk they perceive of their Windows machines becoming zombies.
Dunx
Converting caffeine into code since 1982
Buy a Mac.
mbbac
Don't give up folks, you NEED the internet! Seriously.
I'm against picketing but I don't know how to show it.
Maybe it is for the better. The less users that are available as unprotected hosts waiting to become zombies to spread more filt the better off we are in the long run.
Or, thought of in a different way, if you don't know how to play the 'game' (protect your computer, guard your email, etc), you lose. Survival of the fittest has proven itself again.
PC makers should be doing a better job with this...rather than ship PC's with spyware on it already, they should at lease ship them "clean."
Game Overdrive - Gaming News
If a user doesn't have the time and/or inclination to leave their browser of (informed) choice downloading critical updates to browser, OS, AV, anti-spyware and so on, then they're more likely to go "Ah, skip it - I can get them later, and anything dodgy will get cleared out then."
If you don't have the bandwidth to match your impatience, you're less likely to keep your critical software up-to-date. Simple psychology.
Meta will eat itself
Yes I am part of the Apple faitful. But more than I am drawn to a Mac, I am PUSHED from a Windows PC because of spyware and/or popups. My biggest complaints about using a PC is the soyware/adware. I have spent hours cleaning a system, that was freshly started just a week ago, just to have it infected within an hour. If you have kids on the internet you can forget about trying to keep the machine clean. So my love for Apple is great but my hatred for the crap I have to put up with on a PC is far greater.
While I realize that my knowledge may be at least slightly higher to some of these people when it comes to computers... but really, what are they doing?
I've had zero spyware items on my machine ever (that I didn't intentionally install for testing). Also had zero viruses. That being said, what are these people trying to remove these things? And if they're not removing them, who are they going to for support? Any competent PC tech should have a thorough knowledge of spyware and how to remove it (safely and effectively). Your typical outsourced phone support probably can't do this.
Also about the guy who was running his business with his PCs and searching for vendors and such online - says he lost a years worth of receipts from spyware... how? And why weren't there backups? If he's storing financial data of any type on just one PC with no backups (cd, floppy, tape drive? something!), he probably shouldn't be running a business with a computer in the first place.
I know a few people that they get a new account everytime they are spammed, and they stick with the spyware until they can't use the computer. They probably would give up the interent if they didn;t use it for so many things. The stickler is that so many of the things that people consider the internet important for are often times the things that get them into this mess. The bonzi buddy was the first of these things. It made it self appear to the "Joe User" that it was something helpful. Now sites are sneaking it in with things that are required for their sites. The Spam get annoying since they have no clue where it came from and they repeat their habits over and over again.
Like many others here, a lot of people ask me what I think they should buy when it's tine to get a (new) computer. I now have an easy anwer for all of them: an Apple Mac Mini. The $499 model plus $75 to bring it to 512 MB RAM is *perfect* for everyone I know. Nearly no one I know *needs* Windows for anything. If they do, they can get a second, older computer and not connect it to the Internet.
I am so, so happy Apple has finally made a *really* affordable good Mac. (Where "affordable" means "less than $800" and "good" means "doesn't have a bloody great CRT built-in." Yes, the iBooks are fabulous, but the small screen and keyboard aren't so great for some folks. And $1000 is a lot more than $600 for a lot of people.) Thank you thank you thank you!
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Spyware, etc render even the fastest computers unsuable, so people tend to just buy a new computer when it's overrun. Instead of buying a Compaq, buy a Mac like other's have already suggested. If you've got any curiosity in you. There are Linux distro's they maybe could be figured out by some one.
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh Naranek
If people have actually pulled the plug on the Internet...then how are they going to read your question?
I gave up on Windows first. I support Windows for a living, and after getting frustrated with spyware/spam at work, I ditched it for Linux at home. I don't feel like I'm missing much, either.
o Buy a Mac
o Stay alert like you're on the street in a big city. The net combines resources and dangers just like New York does.
o Consider having two machines, one permanently off the net for bookkeeping and other critical data, one connected but running something like Deep Freeze
o Use the Holy Trinity: antivirus, firewall, patches
o Stay informed. Follow some free security-for-real-people newsletter (mine is probably not the only one).
My dad now emails me very frequently to ask if one of his emails is real or fake. It seems like he gets a PayPal or Ebay phish every other day. I've tried to explain to him to hover over the link and make sure it says www.paypal.com or ebay.com and not a dotted ip address. But he doesn't get it. I understand why people do phishing scams, but the spam is driving customers away from all net advertising. This should be a wake-up call for these types of advertisers. They are driving customers away from any future sales.
Buy a Mac, get a .mac account. Or install Debian, get a gmail account. Welcome, saved soul.
...just switch to Linux or MacOS. For non-technical users especially, the answer is MacOS. My neighbors call me often, asking for help to eliminate malware from their Windows-based PCs. I'm constantly amazed at how increasingly time-consuming this is to do, even for a tech-geek like me. On the other hand, I spend no time needing to deal with this on my Mac. Those folks who use only Windows-based PCs probably take it for granted that malware will always be part of their computing life, but once you get off Windows you realize that the Linux and MacOS alternatives are a real pleasure to live with.
I hope that after I die the one word people use to describe me is "resurrected."
Totally uncalled for.
Give up on the internet because of spyware, spam, and virus? Jesus. Educate yourself, become a SMART user, protect yourself.
It's not friggen hard to keep yourself spyware-free, somewhat spam-free, and virus-free.
I call that guy a coward.
Q the dogmatic mac and *nix zealots who will tell us "MY system never has problems so nah nah nah nah nah"
Before you do people, get this, people wo DON'T work in computers - they just don't care - did you know that? they don't care if it's linux, max, pc, or whatever, they just want to start using this new intahwebeh thing.
When they go to a shop to buy one what do they get? Windows, cos that's what 95% of other people do. Windows is big, it's always going to be big, deal with this fact.
My Portfolio
I'm not a computer technician or anything, but i have not come across a virus i could not get rid of. However.. some spyware programs are rooted into IE somehow and i just don't bother.
But alas! The soloution: Mozilla Firefox!
It's hard for me to imagine. What use is a computer without an internet connect? In the unfortunate event that my internet access goes down, I sit there staring at my computer going, "Now what?"
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." -- RFC 1925
Where I work (ISP), people have phoned in and said "That's it, i'm cancelling my internet because my computer sucks.. it just locks up all the time and the ads are driving me crazy!" I explain to them what spyware/adware is and how easy it is to get rid of it. After 10 minutes, they don't want to throw their computer out the door and they still want to stay on the internet.
Now, maybe it's just me, but for some reason computers seem to stand on their own when it comes to people trying to understand them. The reason that most people don't understand them is because most people haven't tried to learn anything, or haven't read anything about them. It's almost "cool" to say "Hell, I'm computer illiterate, I can barely turn it on." When I troubleshoot a DSL connection, before I can even say "Look at the phone cable," 9 out of 10 times the customer has already given up in their mind and has told me "Look, I don't know anything about computers so I can't do this." Little do they know, they don't NEED TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THEM. They just need to know what a phone cable looks like and then they need to FOLLOW IT WITH THEIR HANDS. Pretty easy, right? Wrong. Before you get to that point, the person has gotten so used to saying that they don't know anything, that they don't even give themselves a chance. I really don't know why people will spend $1000+ on a new machine and then never learn anything about it. Would you spend $600 on a new stove and hit the buttons at random just to bitch because your food is under/over cooked, or would you read the package of the food and read the instructions of the stove to know how to use it properly? A few hours of learning to use your new investment will go a LONG way.
You create your own reality - Leave mine to me.
Who's getting tired of what? The users that trench aimlessly across sites that are riddled with Spyware, the ones that keep clicking 'Click here to Unsubscribe Now', The very same ones that despite warnings, continue to do so without any Spam filters, Anti-Virus or Spyware protection?
Or Those of us that had to spend the last couple of years worth of Holidays cleaning off the nasties?
I wonder if Bill Gates fixed his spyware problems by installing Firefox and Thunderbird :)
Stop using you email acocunt to register for crap.
Register for a free email account at yahoo.com or hotmail, use this for when you must submit an email. This way this email address can get spammed till the cows come home, you simply dole out your real email to friends and family and tell them not to submit your email for giveaways and such.
STOP USING IE. Use Mozilla or Firefox to browse the web. I have used mozilla or firefox for the last few years and only resort to IE when absolutely necessary, and because of the popup blocker (that runs from within them not an outside program) I get ZERO popups. I run no syware blockers or popup stoppers, no anti spam tools. I simply use a second email and Mozilla or Firefox and I get no popups and my inbox takes me 3 minutes to read.
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
If anybody knows somebody who is considering giving up on the internet because of spam and spyware, post their addres here so that we can all send them an email encouraging them to give it another try. Perhaps we can also send them some free software to use that would collect data and send it out to be analyzed to provide a better internet experience.
Sure, My mother. I can't say I blame her. She'd prefer to talk to people she knows about things she cares about. Much of her internet experience has been like getting mugged in a third world bazaar. Between the pimps (pushing porn) the dope peddlers (pushing viagra) and the spammers pushing everything else that you might want but don't need...Remind me again why this is good?
I can't say that her views and mine line up, but I understand where she is coming from. Imagine how relieved you'd be it chop down your mailbox if you came home every day to a pile of circulars that buried your front yard?
I'm increasingly of the opinion that more communication needs to take place face to face. I may send an email to a colleage down the hall when its full of information. But for conversation (that discussion *about* the info) I get off my fat A and walk down the hall.
Human beings were not designed with an RJ45 jack in their fore-head. I think we're sacrificing a quality of life and we don't even know it yet. Technology is great for passing data. It's lousy for blowing in a girl's ear.
flames > dev/null
It's like driving a car. Why on earth would you do it if you don't know what the car can do, or how to protect it, or drive for that matter!
However, I am now going to suggest a Mac Mini, and since it's $499, I think they'll actually do it and it might work for a change!
he replied "get a mac."
it's as simple as you like and as powerful as you'll need.
yeah, i know it's not completely invulnerable forever, but using mail.app spam is swept away regardless of isp, and using safari.app spyware has yet to rear its ugly head while my colleagues run a daily or weekly spate of apps to keep ahead of the mess.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
Email (let's drop the hyphen)
"I have been a happy man ever since January 1, 1990, when I no longer had an email address. I'd used email since about 1975, and it seems to me that 15 years of email is plenty for one lifetime."
For every problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious and wrong.
I gave up on e-mail because of spam, even with SA installed I was getting far too many through each day to a work account. I use e-mail with a personal account still, but I don't broadcast that e-mail address around. I get some spam, but not much.
At least I have IM I can use to communicate, I know if the IM has got through, and I can choose to not accept IMs from people I don't have listed.
As for the internet, I use Firefox, and I'm not a complete retard. The people in that story either should (1) not let their kids randomly download software, kewel screensavers, etc (2) take basic precautions against these infections. It isn't a lot of work. If that is too much for them, they can now go out and spend $500 on a Mac Mini and bypass the vast majority of issues.
Whenever someone tells me they have a spyware problem I ask them if they have a separate comptuer for their teenager. On rare occasion they don't have a teenager but the vast majority of the time they do, and their teenager is using the system for things that result in all sorts of infections and infestations.
So the solution for about half of the people is let the kids have their own computer and don't bother fixing it for them. Let them hunt down a friend who knows how to handle spyware/viruses and have their friend handle it for them. For girls this is usually easy -- lots of teen geeks are more than happy to help a teen girl in distress. A boy should be able to learn enough to clean up after himself anyway.
PS: If you think that's sexist, you're right.
Seastead this.
Technology is taken for granted. Kids these days are connected to the entire world, to an endless supply of information yet they use the internet to get laid and find out who is laying who.
If you teach your children the ideas behind every peice of technology they use (even Hand Towels) before they use them, not only will they appreciate the technology but they will know how to use it. If people understand the power the internet gives them and realize how it works, they will not become infected with spyware and they will not give up on the internet.
As far as here-and-now concerns go: the user who is educated but simply cannot keep up to date on the ever-changing pool of technologies must be protected by someone else on the internet. This is a service the free software movement provides indirectly and is a perfect example of why it is so important.
http://spambayes.sourceforge.net/. I don't know how anyone lives without this. I get the typical hundreds of spam every day. 99% end up in my "Spam" folder. I stopped looking in the spam folder for false positives after doing that for 3 months didn't turn up a single one. My "Junk Suspects" folder usually turns up 10 or so a day, one of which might be a non-spam email. I can almost always clear my Junk Suspect folder in bulk by highlighting the whole mess of them and clicking "Delete As Spam", thus further training my spam filter to delete those kinds of things in the future.
Of the hundreds of spam I receive every day, now only 1 or 2 a day might squeeze past the filter into my inbox. It is absolutely essential.
I have a linux box right next to a windows box on my desk. I use windows for email solely because of Spambayes' excellent integration with Outlook.
Frustrated users that are sick of the internet really might as well just give it up. You don't need it. I've gone by for a month without it and that left me much more productive (except at those things I do which depend on the internet). You DO have better things to do with your time.
I run a very small computer service company, and most of my clients are home users. I've seen a few folks that had disconnected their internet connection for a few months before bringing their computer in to me. And if their kids didn't whine so much, some of them would probably bother at all.
I've commiserated with many clients over the fact that its not getting any easier. Its the people that I don't see at all that have decided that it just isn't worth it anymore.
------- Mark
I removed all AV software from my machine about three years ago because it was interfering with too many apps. I run Spybot and Ad-Aware periodically and have never come up with anything more insidious than tracking cookies. I reinstalled Norton a few months ago, just to see if I was harboring anything...nothing. I have run a number of other virus/spyware/malware detection programs and have never come up with anything.
/. seems to be a prudent.
My primary safeguards are not opening email attachments and not using IE. Unless I am missing something, those two things have worked perfectly for 3 years of heavy internet use.
Also, posting anonymously on
When I was home for the holidays, I had what seems to be a typical experience in family technical support. They had a variety of computers (too much money, no sense). One laptop had 2000+ spyware programs running, and the desktop was even taken over by a hostile active desktop. Indeed, you'd go to search in IE and about every other word would be hotlinked to some sort of product.
:)
Installing firefox on their computers is one thing, but I have far younger half-brothers who literally will click 'yes' to everything that pops up. Indeed, they have some sort of furry animal (named 'Bonzibuddy' or something?) that seems to give them buying advice on their desktop (??!?!!). The solution to their problem was that they just established a stand-alone computer for homework and computer games, with no connection to the internet.
Now, I agree that it is a terrible waste of resources, but it at least gives them a reliable computer to do work on without having to wonder if the spyware will destroy their MS Office or 'Sims' or whatever they play.
Meh, I have my iBook and live half the country away.
"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all."
- Bob Dylan
Buy a mini mac ($499) or a cheap linux PC. Done.
Don't put your e-mail address on the web anywhere, don't give it to any website. If you have to, get a free account from someone and use that as a junk account.
If someone does send you spam, do not click any links contained therein. Once you load the message, you're screwed in that they now know it is an active e-mail account and then they pounce on you like a pack of teenagers at a hooker convention.
Wow...i guess next we'll see these same people, sick of having their cars break down and seeing accidents selling their cars, and taking the bus. Or sick of their children bringing home chicken pox and bad grades, putting them up for adoption. I think articles like this are BS by some over dramatic people, anyone that thinks like this doesn't deserve to use the Internet anyways ;P.
My mother works for a local law enforcement agency. Over the weekend she asked me about the phishing emails and if there is a place to report them. She said that they recieve calls regularly from people that do not know what to do. Previously, they were telling them to just delete the messages. I suggested antiphishing.org.
Are there any other sites that would be more helpful (especially for novice computer users)?
Don't use MS Windows if you don't know computers. (Disclaimer, I do use MS Windows) Get a Mac or a Linux Box but use something other than MS Windows.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
From the article:
"No one is immune. Microsoft Corp. Chairman Bill Gates discovered spyware on his personal machine not long ago."
Hoisted by your own petard, biatch!
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_
From TFA: But 2004 "was a real turning point in a bad direction," said technology analyst Ted Schadler of Forrester Research. "People are getting really angry. They're angry at Dell and Microsoft and their cable providers, and that's appropriate. They should be."
I understand Microsoft, but Dell and their cable providers? That's like blaming your car manufacturer and the department of transportation when your car gets broken into.
I tend to lean towards 'its not the user's fault', however after admin'ing for a few years and answering the same questions by the same people over and over my opinion has become a bit cynical.
Still, Microsoft could make a secure OS and browser, and that would help, but nothing is going to prevent joe sixpack from downloading some spyware ridden P2P app and bonzi buddy, except for that DRM encrusted Trusted Computing thing.
It will look nice at first to the clueless users like the guy in this article, but hopefully it wont be too late before everyone realizes what a mistake they made. Actually, I don't think its going to make it very far, most admins will fight it and if it doesn't make it into the businesses it wont make it to mainstream.
I think of it as having a limited user account to my computer administrated by Microsoft through group policies in the bios.
not sure where this rant is going but I better stop before I get to hot grits and what not.
Im dreaming ofa big bndwdth, That can resist the
Basically now, I install AntiVir http://www.free-av.com/ and Adaware http://www.lavasoft.com/ , and together they can do a pretty great job of cleaning the computer. Toss on Firefox and say "Use this, not IE" and they have been in pretty good shape!
In any case, lots of people here have the skill to help them out, share it! I'm sure most already do!
Someone can make a mint by inventing something like email, but without the spam. I'd switch in a flash.
Since everything so far has failed, perhaps we need an entirely new scheme. I don't care a whit what the scheme would be.
Postage? Fine. (I don't care a whit whether mass-mailers will have to cough up money. They have to do that if they phone me or paper-mail me.)
A trust system to identify real senders? Fine. (I don't need to hear from total strangers who know nobody who is trusted.)
A computational penalty to send messages? Fine. (I have the CPU, and I have no sympathy for mass mailers ... buy some CPUs if you want to tell me about your wonderful products.)
Any scheme will do. It need not be backwards compatible. It need not have a wide subscription base, to begin with. But something has to change, and soon, because email is a candle burning in a closed box, guttering close to death.
Don't let the digital door smack you on the ass on your way out. If you can't be bothered to learn enough to deal with real life online then you should be gone. I for one am sick of your inane comments, stupid questions, ill considered flames, and whining expectations. You are the reason worms and viruses have become the problem that they are. Your willingness to click OK on, and agree to, any damn thing that pops up on your screen has cuased untold billions of dollars in damage, as you eagerly allow your computer to be turned into a zombie for spam and DDOS attacks.
The internet was a better place before the hordes of AOLers and other neophyte smacktards showed up. I couldn't be more glad to see you go. Please don't come back.
i got tired of all the problems of the internest a long time ago. basically, i only get email ( in plain text only format and never open attachment or mesages from people i don't know ), read slashdot and about 2 other news sites, and read live journal.
i even have images turned off for most sites.
is this because i'm afraid of viruses and spyware. not really. but i can say that i don't run an anti-spyware or anti-virus program ( and never have ) and i have a clean system ( yes, i do randomly check if my system seems to slow down, i just don't have them run excpet for the once every 6 months or so when i get tested . . . )
let's face it. tv was cool at first, but then it got old and diluted. same thing goes with the net. now i use both in about the same manner, to periodicly get news updates.
Yes, my parents were forced off the internet. Well, one of them was forced off the net.
Its sort of funny. Because my dad, in his late 80s, will not use anything except a mac. He upgraded to panther and an IMac. He has been using Macs since his first Mac SE. No problems. He had one virus in the 80s I think. mdef resource virus or something on floppy disks.
My mother, in her 70s, insists on using windows. She had windows 2000. It stopped working because it was infested with spyware and viruses. She was knocked off for a month. So, I upgraded to windows XP. A month after the upgrade, the pc was infested with spyware and viruses again. Had to run spy bot and do the updates. But then she got norton out of frustration. Norton adds some software to the filesystem and it slowed the pc to an inoperable state. At that point she was knocked not only off the internet but off the pc. Had to clean that mess up. Told her to get rid of norton and run spybot more often. The pc is a pentium 500. I cant even imagine upgrading it to another box because they probably dont know where all their files are and neither do I! Huff, all sorts of spyware controls installed into the IE browser. Total mess. It gets frustrating doing all this free admin work.
Spyware and SPAM are technical problems. Yes, it would be nice to have it be illegal, but legislators are way too busy considering legislation to help big companies prop up failing business models to help the taxpayers. You can't blame them for that, I mean who is going to pay the bills if they can't recieve their bribes?
Anyway, these problems need to be solved with technical solutions. The government, these days, thinks technical problems can be solved by making things "more illegal" and that ain't the case. The internet community needs to get off it's ass, stop bickering, and adopt a solution.
Personally, though, I'd just as soon see a few hundred million noobs stop using the internet. It was a better system when the "if you use it try to give back to it" ethos was in effect...now everyone is just out to make a buck. Remember the time before banner ads? If not, unplug your computer and go to hell.
Some of the stuff in the article (the guy who lost the reciepts for example) are just dumb. He could have lost those reciepts just as easily to a HDD crash. People want all the benefits of technology, but none of the responsibility (backing up, patching your systems, etc.) and that's what you get when you don't take responsibility for your machines. This attitude is what keeps crappy developers employed while good, careful ones who are into things like standards and correctess are assed out. It's not an inexcusable offense...I've lost stuff I should have backed up, but then I'm not quitting the internet because I lost that data am I?
Whatever. everyone can go to hell. I'm tired of society being flabberghasted by problems which it creates for itself and then refuses to address in any really meaningful or lasting way. Fuck'em.
Just think and it's quite easy to deal with this for example :
.edu site so that should be fine let me check it.
I have pop-ups
1. Use google to search for ''Pop-Up blocker'' or ''Remove pop-ups''
2. Let's see result number 5 is a
3. Search on google for the stuff mentioned and if it seems to be fine (e.g no anti X site's and X sucks comments) follow the BLOODY guide.
The problem is not the internet the problem is YOU
c'mon people I dind't learn to use a computer by sitting in front of it and accepting that it didn't do what I want it to do.
Where is the advertising campaign touting the lack of spyware and viruses? Apple should be screaming it from the tops of buildings right now.
Dumbasses.
What I hate is when they complain about their email. After they complain they continue to tell you how they reply to the spam telling them to stop sending it or they load the images or do something to let the spammer know that they are listen and to send more. It's not my fault that they don't pretect against virii that spam others and grab their lists of contacts. I say let them go. Maybe we'll have less spam. Spyware a problem then switch OS. -Stephen
Billie Boy finally got frustrated and launched MS AntiSpyware because of that, you know. Now its not long before he'll realise that designing windows itself is the biggest fault of his.
Courts have protected software vendors from most consumer lawsuits, and some have held that the companies are all but immunized by warnings buried in lengthy user agreements, those boxes with massive amounts of text with the "I agree" button at the bottom.
This comment surprised me. I thought that EULAs had never been challenged in court. If "companies are all but immunized" by EULAs, maybe it's a good time to rethink the legal binding a EULA has.
I think the best solution is to lump "virus" and "spyware" into one category; both from a legal and software (i.e. virus scanner) standpoint. Granted, there are some problems even with this solution. But if I had the perfect solution to this problem, I would be richer than Bill Gates.
----
Squirrel
for many of my personal tech clients is one of two choices: be vigilant about running your spyware eevry week and use Firefox instead of IE. Also, make sure to have all MS updates.
My second option is to go the Mac way. I had a client the other night who had her family's IBM PC completely wiped out by some trojan horse. Her daughter downloaded free version of Limewire and it went to hell from there. She said her son (a college student in Boston) keeps egging her on about replacing the PC with a Mac. I told her about the new MiniMe box and seems like she's going to take the plunge.
Most people I deal with - parents, grandparents mostly - simply have no idea what to do about all this shit that these lozer hackerz throw at them. They get very angry and become very frustrated. So, switch to a Mac or learn your PC skills very well. In that vein, allow vigilatiism against these retard hackers.
I gave up on the Internet for a while, then I came back with multiple computers. One for the Internet, and the others for applications. I only brows with opera and Mozilla and I have everything turned off. I use ad-aware programs and I delete webcheck.dll, loadwc.exe, and set reg keys : "RegDone"="1" "EnableDCOM"="N" and delete c:\windows\wscript.exe
I disable something with ad-aware's LSP Explorer plugin, forget what...
It's still not enough. I shouldn't have to do all this crap.
One thing I have given up on is e-mail. I change my e-mail every few months and I almost never use it, and I never give it to anyone. I also never use IM or IRC.
I don't know anyone who actually has given up using the internet because of spyware. Sadly they are unconcerned about it because they all figure they have me to call to come fix it, so they surf all the porn, click on all the pop up ads, then when their computer is unbearably slow and loaded with viruses, I get the call to come in and fix it.
Stark read five years' worth of computer magazines just to keep up with how to defend himself.
Even with two firewalls and antivirus and anti-spyware programs running, Stark stopped looking for new business deals online. He said he would buy only from places he had dealt with before, preferably in the physical world rather than the virtual one.
"I'm not letting my guard down again," Stark said. "Never."
He read five years of tech magazines to keep up? Thats his first problem, is that he is an idiot...i don't know what good reading 5-year old tech magazines will do, i'm sure thats a stretch of the truth. And second if he is "smart enough" to install two firewalls, an anti-virus and an anti-spyware, how is he not smart enough to know who is reputable to buy from online? I've NEVER gotten spyware or a virus from buying from an online vendor...even non big name ones. The only time i've gotten spyware was thanks to leaky IE, but even if your doing business in the physical world, in theory you can still get this doing personal things. Whatever, this article annoys me to no end.
I think it is time that the community gathers together some money and start to sue Microsoft...
If it werent for Microsoft's crap we still would have a interesting save internet...
Microsoft is directly responsible for the deminishing value of the internet.
Get a Mac!
I found the meaning of life the other day, but I had write-only access.
Just like the title says. That gets BEST POST award.
1. My parents both use Windows PCs at work. they work for large companies that are not going to transition from Windows to Linux or Macs.
/.ers suggest that I wish a perfectly straight face suggest they use a Mac or Linux? Not gonna float people.
No - they use Office at work. Admit it!!
That is why there is Office X for the Mac.
2. My parents get confused if I alter a toolbar on their home PC when I am working on it. They think it is broken if it does not look exectly like the one they use at work.
You give them too little credit. Perhaps they will like how the Mac works better overall?
3. They do not want to learn how to use a PC. They still can't program the video player, they have no DVD player, they think CDs are some sort of voodoo.
Then probably, they should have a Mac and not a PC.
How would
Pretty easy, really. How are they going to fare in the long term when Longhorn comes out if they don't even like changig a menu?
Break them of the habit now, a short-term pain will go a long way in the future.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
My very first e-mail account. Which I only log into about once a month - gets almost no spam mail. I do not use it for anything, but it used to get around 200-300 a day, and now I get about 50/month. I registered the account around 95-96. So maybe spam companies do eventually give up on e-mail accounts?
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
The ages of people interviewed seem to be 50, 52 and 77. Can anybody younger afford to remain offline? Even if you don't (already) need net in your job, not having an email seems actually quite impolite nowadays.
Also, using my .mac account for my primary email, I get about five spams a day. And each and every one of them originate from the same company, that a 'friend' of mine signed me up so she could get some free movie tickets. (She is actually an ex-friend over this very issue... she went ballistic when I asked her not to give out my personal information or send me stupid forwarded joke emails. Her response back screamed I WILL NEVER SEND YOU ANOTHER EMAIL, EVER! and I said, "fine by me.") I could try to get rid of those five per day emails, but I'm afraid of increasing the amount by using their 'unsubscribe' link.
My dad is in his mid 60s and has been using a computer for about 10 years now. I stopped by my parent's house last year and he told me he was cancelling his dial up service because he had so much crap on his computer. I took his computer, wiped it clean and put a new copy of windows 2k on it along with firefox and thunderbird. I told him not to use IE or outlook, only use the two programs I had put on his computer for him. He's still using the internet now, several months later and is very happy with the Mozilla programs. I put Zonealarm on his computer too and he loves getting the little pop up messages telling him it's blocked something. He has told several of his friends that they need to switch over to firefox also.
Firstly, get Thunderbird and use its rather excellent spam filter.
It also allows you to very easily to filter out email you really want to keep so you can set up a whitelist of addresses you're happy to receive email from.
Secondly, yes you can use Firefox instead of IE to avoid those IE-targetted malicious websites snaring you.
Thirdly, get some anti-virus software and adware-killer software (Adaware and Spybot Search & Destroy together will do a lot) and you'll massively reduce the chances of infection. You can get free anti-virus software from Grisoft here.
No that's probably not the best anti-virus protection around but it does mean anyone can get some level of protection and not just those who can afford Norton et al.
Fourthly, get a firewall like Zone Alarm or just turn on the one that comes with Windows XP SP2.
With a point in the right direction it becomes a load easier to manage everything.
First, get your computer literate friend/nephew/grandson/whatever to clean up your machine.
Second, change your e-mail address.
Then don't give it out to any website that isn't run by a major corporation. The big guys can't afford the bad publicity of being called a spammer so there opt-in/opt-out options really work.
Third, don't download anything. No greeting cards, no funny little screensaver. NOTHING!
Done.
Goodbye, cruel World (Wide Web)
"Any advice for frustrated users, especially non-technical users?"
/. for advice?
Would the non-techies be reading
http://tinyurl.com/449k4
--- Ban humanity.
From the article:
Microsoft's dominant Windows operating system also makes it possible for malicious code to spread, in part because it was designed to allow so many functions.
Arggh. I guess the reason other non-dominant operating systems are more secure is that they weren't "designed to allow so many functions."
99.9% of all the spam I get is to my primary email address. Since the only me and my ISP know it's my address, I filter all email to that address that isn't my from my ISP. I've set up subaccount email addresses and get virtually no spam on these accounts.
I fix home computers as a side gig and I tell people, especially those people who own cheap or old computers and don't do much more than surf, email, and word process that user friendly versions of Linux are waiting for them, immune to nearly all viruses and spyware and the best part is they will probably not have to restart their computer anymore.
Did I mention they are free and I will make you the CD's for Fedora, Mandrake, Suse, or whatever other distro you want and you can just pay me to install them for you.
Alas, maybe they are afraid they will miss me.
I have Yahoo!Mail, and every single piece of spam (except that from Yahoo itself) goes to the bulk folder. I run Adaware on a regular basis with no problems. The only thing I can think of is that these people are checking out the funkiest porn sites and clicking yes to EVERY pop-up. Come to think of it, I visit porn sites and still have no problems. I hesitate to judge, but I say they're wimps. Do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just switch soaps.
Spyware is teh bane of my working life. (Looking after an XP based Uni network with a very "free and easy" approach to private pcs like laptops etc) I always install the following on any machine not locked down by the Uni; Firebird (with pop-ups disabled), Thunderbird (for email with option for santised HTML on), Adaware (for spy-crud "accidents"), any Anti-virus and a simple firewall like Zonealarm (crappy but easy to handle for teh n00b). Its a sad state of affairs when you have to use so much 3rd party freebies to make a product anywhere near safe..... but hey, it all makes me look busy. I will never get over how fast peeps will click on "Yes" to any pop up that appears. Unfortunately, the only real answer to this sort of problem is to educate people in teh arcane practices of safe surfing. One thing I would love to see is a browser that, once a pc has been "infected" with this crap a number of times, would autodowngrade and only allow the user Lynx access to the web. Normal surfing would only be restored after the user had cleaned up and proved to their browser that they had learned their lesson!! Ahhhhh, sweet sweet revenge!
...and when I opened the link, Firefox told me it had prevented latimes.com from opening a popup.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
Why not offer to help fix computers for something in return? I often ask for dinner, personally, as I don't really cook. No one really considers this an imposition, the other person usually considers it underpayment.
Make yourself a CD book with some common repair tools, and get to work. Not only is it a great way to socialize, but free food is always a good thing!
So what's the problem? People who don't know how to keep their machines from getting owned are unplugging from the Internet. Haven't we suggested this many times before?
Good explanation and expamples of the problem, but how about a little info on how to avoid these problems? Towards the end the artice mentions Microsoft buying an anti-spyware company, but that's it. No mention of Ad-Aware, no mention of Spybot. At least come up with something usefull to help people out even if you don't mention specific programs or companies.
Yeesh.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
when I got paid for knowing about computers for the first time I thought, "Everyone should own a computer!" I think that a lot less now. But not becuase I am 1337 and "they" are LUSERS with PEBCAK problems. Not at all.
The home computer has failed to become an appliance like a microwave, or a refrigerator. Is it really any easier than it was back in the Apple ][e, Commodre 64 days? Has WinXP or Suse 9.0 or OS X really made computing as transparent as heating a chicken? Has networking gotten much simpler?
For the average mom and pop at home who want to send some email, do some online banking, shopping, knowledge gathering and write a letter, maybe balance a checkbook really need dual G5s a P4 3.0?
The computer world looked ready to go back to main frame client/server models with things like Java et al. It should. Give mom and pop a 20+" monitor and keyboard and mouse and let them access everything though their browser. Here's you Word Processor, here's you email, here's your pr0n.
And for those of us bold enough to muck about in kernals, driver and whatnot well we still could. Andf we wouldn't have to do it everytime we visit our parents, neighbors, friend's office.
People are diving off the internet because configuring their computers is still hard. It's still "dangerous" and frankly all the pr0n in the world can't drive this "internet" thing much further. And to this point pr0n and games have driven the internet and home computing into the super computer realm to this point.
The users aren't the issue. The fact that some 40 years later not all that much has changed regarding setting up a network is an issue. The fact that there is a large corporation out there making consistently insecure software despite their responsibility as the market (well really as THE market) leader is an issue.
This
Welcome to the American legal system.
--- Ban humanity.
Slashdot effect too much for some users. Some users are giving up on the Internet.
h-t-t-p-colon-slash-slash-slash-dot-dot-org
I can tell you my life has gotten better ever since I quit reading article and posting on forums.
The worst offender that caused me the most stress was posting on slashdot.org... bunch of techie commies there.
The imposition of globalist panmixia powered by advanced transportation and habitation technologies is resulting in precisely the same sort of sociopathic opportunism in other layers of abstraction of industrial civilization.
People who demonize isolationists are themselves acting as the moral equivalent of HIV.
Seastead this.
I mention the Mac mini to soem people, but what if they cant do something that they can with the PC and it turns out to be useless for them? can they take it back and get a full refund?
A lot of people will not be 100% confident they the Mac mini will give them what they need, so they won't buy.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
http://www.overclockers.com/tips1166/
I have received a lot of positive feedback about how useful people have found this, and you can find it linked from many respectable sites around the web.
Overclockers
If they require windows, simply take away their admin privileges. If they are techie enough to defeat that, then put them on their own machine or install linux.
I no longer use the web, or e-mail, or anything, but it is for religious reasons, not from spam. Yours etc., Brigadier Arthur Gormanstrop (Mrs)
Six score characters.
Brevity being wit's soul
I have enough space.
If people can't be bothered to learn how to maintain their machines properly they should get the hell off our 'net. It will stop their trojaned and spyware filled PCs fucking it up for the rest of us.
"Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
One thing you should never do from any e-mail address you want to keep readable is post to Usenet. Get yourself a couple of free e-mail addresses from Yahoo, hotmail, gmail, or any other service like that and use it as a "spam trap." Any time you post to Usenet or any open web forum that does not obscure your e-mail address, use that one as your return address. Keep the address you want usable off of these places, and the address farmers won't be able to harvest yours. Be absolutely certain that your friends know not to give out your hidden address.
Yes, I know everyone's going to say "Firefox and Thunderbird"... so I won't bother repeating those things.
What I will emphasize is locking down cookies on your system. Set them so that only the originating site can store them. Lock down ActiveX controls entirely. No ActiveX controls should be run without your permission, even if they're "signed." Be sure to set browser preferences to send "nobody@nowhere.co.us" or something like that as your anonymous ftp password.
Report spam to SpamCop (www.spamcop.net). It may not do much in the short term, but it will help get some of these originating sites into the blacklist, and might even get the customer terminated.
Doing all of this won't eliminate spam from your inbox. Short of not getting on the internet, nothing will. It will, however, greatly reduce it.
OCO is Loco
A friend's mother, a private practice psychiatrist, recently asked me over to do work on her laptop. Ridden with viri and spyware, it was virtually unusable. When I explained how drastic the solutions were for all of the computer's illnesses, she threatened to just rip out the WiFi card and put the thing away for good, only to use it in need of word proccessing or scheduling visits with patients. Luckily neither application required internet connectivity.
Luck is the key word there. It's her luck that she doesn't absolutely need to be connected to do all that she needs to for business. Some people are not so lucky, and the do have an absolute need for internet connectivity for business reasons. However, I think in a lot of cases connectivity is majorly a convienence. For example, stamps.com instead of buying and licking real stamps.. or checking freight costs on a website instead of in a book or calling an operator at the shipping company.
The downside to being able to simply say one can get by without the internet because you can send your secretary to Office Depot to get office supplies instead of buying them online, is the personal effects of the internet. The son of that psychiatrist, my friend, is living in Japan. Even with cheap phone cards online it's hard to stay in touch while he lives and goes to school half way across the globe. Email is a great way for her to still feel close to her son.
So a reminder to you frustrated internet users, before you tear out your WiFi card and stomp on it for your own personal release, be sure you click on Safely Remove Hardware first.
For spyware and viruses, don't use Microsoft products. The iMac mini was probably made to be a replacement for Windows users tired of spyware and viruses - just remove the old computer, and hook the iMac up to the same devices.
For spam, not using AOL is a good start. Then, don't use your address on web forms. Be prepared to change addresses every few years or so. And use a decent e-mail client that has spam filtering.
Ta-da!
I don't reply to ACs
With a statistically insignificant number of people objecting, the choice is unanimous - buy a Mac!!
You can afford one now (especailly for people with PC's to ditch and monitors to keep).
You can keep using Office, because it is there.
You can use all sorts of other cool programs that are not on the PC.
It doesn't get any more clear than this - people actually dropping off the network? They obviously need a Mac. People new to computers? Be kind and advise them to use Macs. People looking at laptops? They really should be looking at macs.
If nothing else, by advocating the Mac platform to everyone you are serviing to increase platform diversity and THAT helps everyone in the long run. Even if the Mac can only reach 20% total market penetration, you still are making it an easier choice for people to develop with cross-platform in mind, which in turn also makes it easier to have a Linux port.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
What non-techies need is a "turnkey" 2-way firewall they can plug their phone line or DSL or cable modem into that would block nasties.
This box would be a very simple firewall w/ a modem:
- nothing gets in uninvited
- nothing gets out except http: and https:. No IRC, no chat, no email, unless it's routed over those ports.
This, combined with a "locked down" web browser that sandboxes everything or at least blocks auto-installs, is just what many non-techies need.
Oh, yes, I know people who are ready to pull the plug but don't because someone else in the house depends on the 'net.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Well, everyone I know doesn't bother using email anymore.
..." questions in interviews with "i'd ask on #linuxwarez then hit google" doesn't go over well, even if its true. Im really pretty dumb.
99% of the casual users I used to regularily correspond either don't like me anymore or have done what I suspect a great portion of people have done.
1) Installed a MSN client or other client which allows them to sit as "away" or "offline"
2) Regularily do not respond to MSN messages
3) Do not check email and agressively tag things as spam causing even legitimate emaillers to drop into the Junk Mail folder. Then they check it once in a year and by then its been deleted or they are too "busy"
I used to hear the line "I dont log into MSN anymore because all the people with no lives would MSN me as soon as I logged in EVERY SINGLE TIME. etc.
The Internet had alot of promise for bringing people together in new ways and fostering a new "safer" level of friendship. Personally I have moved all over central Canada in the last 10 years and have put down roots for only a couple of years at a time. As a result I have friends all over Canada. Even so, none of my moves were traumatic because I always had MSN or ICQ or good old email to keep in touch with people. It was great. I used to spend 1-2 hours a day only chatting and on top of that i'd spend the rest of the day with the window at least running (as I was in IT).
In the last year I moved to rural ontario to live with my parents and work in a warehouse, after my life basically fell apart. Strangely enough, i'm not sure if it was because I was misssing MSN "primetime" because I was working nights or early mornings but there is never anyone but my couple of geekier friends online. Its rare that I have a real conversation online anymore. But thats just how it is I guess.
I know alot of people have just given up though. Several of my friends have been hit by spam or spyware or MSN viruses and just not gotten their computers fixed for a year. a YEAR. I can't even imagine that. I used to log into MSN via wifi used to run the RF gun system at work on my PDA just to keep connected. (you know you use IRC too much when you IRC on your PDA. Try it sometime, its not fun)
Personally I have never really been bothered by spyware or viruses because I have good personal habits. Spam is a bit more of a problem but since I started working from the other way back (identifying good messages out of the junk rather than vice-versa) things have been pretty good. I use a linux box at my house that uses fetchmail/gotmail to concentrate all my mail into my personal domain at my buddy's rack server then (I want to change this soon) use isbg.py connected to a very aggressive spamassassin w/SARE rules setup that polls in the background using cron and move the definitely spam into a SPAM directory with subject rewrites. Then outlook at work loads up the dir and puts the mailing lists into their dirs (I dont have a mailbox on a shell I control so don't say procmail to me, I would if I could) and then copy any email to a "questionable" mailbox. The spamchecker runs on this as well, so after 15 minutes its empty. Anything in my addressbook gets left in the inbox. Super whitelist. My life is good but I do have to check the questionable on a regular basis.
But the problem with that setup is that most users are too convinced they are too stupid to set it up.
A little side rant here, im in a new job where they are all so afraid of my supposed "advanced IT skills" that i've been leashed and prevented from doing my job or using any tools. I tried to explain that my only real skills are not being afraid of any problem and knowing that I can break it down into smaller problems and then its just a matter of being organized, documenting well and knowing how to use google. P.S. I've found answering "what would you do if
But yeah, people think they're dumb. And people hate people
--- ask me about nihilism, I will have nothing to tell you.
Seriously, Giving some family member who has finally grasped the concept of Windows a drastically differnet (and expensive) computer and operating system doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I have had great success installing Linux (Fedora usually) on familiy members pcs. I just adjust a few menu's and place some icons on the desktop and I'm done. They don't have to buy ANYTHING, they already have a computer. Even a cheap Mac ($800-$1000?) doesn't seem all that cheap to me.
People seem much brighter once you light them on fire.
The Department of Electrical Engineering at the University of Nebraska is even seeing the effect of all the crap on the internet. The problem is trying to offer students access to the internet in the labs and classrooms. Most of these computers use MS products. Students seems to feel it is their duty to install as much crap on these computers as possible--mostly screen savers, tool bars, etc. The problem is that more and more of these programs are infested. So, in response to that, electrical engineering students at the University of Nebraska received this email this week:
You would have hoped engineering students would be saavy enough not to have been loading this crap. It is a shame to limit access in these situations, but it is the only way to ensure the computers with windows will perform the main tasks needed to be performed for the students.
I am recommending to all my friends and family who are fed up with the problems with windows to either get Linux or get a Mac. If they cannot do that, I am recommending they get rid of IE, use Firefox or Mozilla, and stop downloading things they are unsure of.
Having done so much with so little for so long, I now can do anything with nothing at all.
Once word gets out that Macs aren't plagued with crapware, *everyone* will get one. When that happens, the Mac will suddenly become a lucrative platform for this sort of garbage.
// This is not a sig.
Any advice for frustrated users, especially non-technical users?" Buy a Mac. Duh!!
there is a great article explaining how to keep your computer virus-free.
You can read it at http://www....
Oh wait...
I feel bad for my mom. I sold her my laptop back when, so that I'd have money to move to Austin. 2 years later, she finally caved and got a cable modem but the exploits and spyware are killing her desire to even have the computer. It's not just the internet thing. She has a Celeron 733MHz w/ 64MB of RAM which is enough to run Win2K and do the most basic tasks, but with all the spyware, it leeches every last ounce of memory and processor time. I thought about putting XandrOS on it (I did for my brother.) but that's too bold of an experiment when I live out of town and am not the most affluent linux user. I wouldn't be able to put Windows back on if it's not working out until my next visit. If my brother manages alright with Xandr, I might put it on my mom's machine this summer.
If the governments concerned would just pass laws that allow them to seize all revenues generated by invasive advertising, it would come to an end. While the RCMP (Or FBI if your american) may be more concerned with gun weilding lunatics, I am sure that Customs and Revenue Canada (Or the IRS) would be quite good at locating and seizing these funds. If all your cash gets taken away, you lose the incentive to do it.
Of course, whether or not such laws violate fundamental rights are another issue.
END COMMUNICATION
The answer? stop selling open internet connections as standard. People don't need them. Give them mail access, ftp access and http access. And filter those services. 99% of people don't need anything more, and other services can be allowed on a per user basis.
If you want an open connection you can pay slightly more for it and choose the open product.
That way, people can use whatever o/s they want, and whatever applications they want. The ISP will protect them. Even if they were to get infected with something nasty, it would be stopped travelling outbound.
How does a Mac stop your 13 year old kids inbox from filling up with pornographic spam?
It doesn't.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
My parents split up years ago, and each have remarried. They both have computers, Dad has a PC (xp), mom has a Mac.
I'm CONSTANTLY supporting that damn PC. I friggin hate it. Him and his kids ARE to blame in a way, they see a popup and they click it. "is your system slow?" hell yes, click that fast and install whatever it is.. You can imagine the pain I feel.
My Mom on the other hand has a Mac, a new iBook, and my Grandpa who lives with here, 88yrs old, has a DUAL G5 (damn I'm jealous). Guess how many viruses/spyware/trojans/worms/whatever I've ever had to deal with?? NONE.
I will NEVER buy another PC. I own an iBook now, and will NEVER go back to that damn MS OS. I'd use linux, but I don't like the gui. (go ahead, start flamin, but it's my opinion and it's final, I just don't like it.. I run dozens of production server using linux, but hate the GUI).
Can't wait for my Mac Mini to ship.. Goin right in the living room.
Advice to the people who know how to remove these infections: Do what I'm doing and start up a business in your area cleaning up these things: Because there is no tried and true way to stop adware and spyware from assaulting users computers, you will always have a ready customer base to reach.
The people will love you, and if you charge reasonable rates and do house calls, they will keep calling you. And more than likely feed you while you are there. Oh - and if there is anyone having problems in northern mass and souther NH, email me - If i can fix your problem in less than an hour its 50 dollars for a house call!
You could teach a graduate-level course on filtering and other preventive techniques, but I find that most trouble is caused by people who innocently take actions that open the door to abuse.
Three things I tell friends and family who are looking for help:
1 - Keep two email addresses...most service providers will let you set up aliases. Give one address to family and friends ONLY, and use the other for web memberships, bank and utility accounts, etc. When you start to get spam at the alias (your "public" address,) turn it off and get another one.
2 - NEVER use your personal address to sign up for anything, ever. And ask your friends not to either. I shake my head when I get an email with a subject line like, "Somebody wanted you to read this article," -- indicating that some well-intentioned person had put my address into a web form somewhere. Assume that whenever a form asks for your address, it is for the purpose of sending you advertisements and other things that you don't want.
3 - NEVER download and install any free software, no matter how cool it is. Obviously there are exceptions to this rule for knowledgeable people who are looking for something specific, but I'm thinking more along the lines of, "Hey! Click here to get fancy animated cursors!"
Evil is the money of root.
When I went to read the story I got a warning on firefox that it was blocking a pop up :)
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
yeah, and if she'd had a Mac it would have cost even MORE to fix!
Because Macs are more expensive you know. So it costs even MORE to fix them!
And they have to get a "special" guy who know Macs to fix them. And it could take weeks! And she might have to end up buying a new computer! Which could cost....uh...$499....
/end sarcastic rant
I like microcars
Who asked "is linux easy to install?"? It doesn't matter how easy to install it is, these people will never install it, they cannot comprehend such a thing. They can't install windows either, and its easy too. Installation doesn't matter at all for the ordinary Joe user, so concentrate on solving the actual problems, instead of talking about how great the solution to a non-existant problem is.
Dell (and IBM, Gateway, etc) sells you machine that comes with all sort of *crap*. And they don't give you a windows X cd to do a clean install (that may not be the fault of Dell). So users have all this noise on their desktop and no training except by trial and error. It's hard to explain to users why they have all this stuff that wants registration and why they shouldn't do it, when after all, 'it came from dell!'
eric
Yet in 64 minutes, an article on that gets 171 posts ( at >0 ) but this one about spam gets 172 in 32 minutes ( at >0 )?
Half the time, essentially the same # of posts? Where's our "news for nerds" priorities?
My family's computer got rediculus. Mine personally is clean as a mormon girl on prom night.
So here is what I did:
- All users are "limited" on windows
- Firefox installed
- IE ActiveX security tightened
- Spybot S&D scan once a week
- AdAware scan once a week
- Norton AV scans once a week... scans all incoming files/email. Silently blocks/deletes all it catches.
- SpywareBlaster installed (prevents hijackers on IE)
- Windows Firewall Enabled
- Have a hardware firewall in my router
- XP SP2 installed, with autoupdate enabled.
Between all those measures... it's been clean for 4 months now. Not 1 problem. It's as good as day 1.
IMHO you have to counteract it. can't sit and wait to see if a problem forms.
The only way to secure windows is to install firewall software, antivirus software, and do regular scans of your system with spyware removal tools. This is all very time consuming and expensive. With a new $500 Mac available users can get a user friendly operating system on a powerful machine that comes preloaded with oodles of apps. Or, for the absolute no-money solution, switch to one of the very friendly linux distros like Ubuntu or Linspire.
Mental Note: Buy stock in apple. They way undervalued, and about to start gobbling up market share like a champ.
Of course, you install Firefox and Thunderbird.
LitePC is too flexible for the typical home user, though. It's used mostly for configuring business desktops and embedded systems. Basically, it lets you turn off, selectively, most of what's in XP but not XP Embedded. They really need a one-step CD product that cleans out adware, spyware, and viruses, removes Internet Explorer, and installs Firefox and Thunderbird.
There really aren't that many important web sites left that work only with IE. And you can usually find a competitor that sells the same thing. I haven't run IE in a year or so now.
Is that if everyone switched, then Virus writers would simply target them instead. Ditto Linux. Don't fool yourself guys, the Viruses aren't there because people aren't writing them. Because the world uses Windows. If the world used something else, the viruses will move there instead.
jesus christ, the answer's been in everybody's faces for years -- solves spyware problem
get a bs web-based email account as a screen -- dampens the effect of spam
while I do agree a mac or linux is a good way to avoid such problems, once again this is a matter of the public being ill informed. My computer stays generally spyware free, all i do is use an "alternative" browser (k-meleon. i used to occasionally have problems getting some sites to load, but now mozilla support is pretty widespread.) and i just use my best judgement when it comes to downloading stuff from shady websites. I think most windows users would be fine if they didn't use internet explorer.
they are responsible for one great achievement, the fact that people finally begin to understand that you cannot trust a program unless you know exactly what it does, ie have access to its source code! Some years ago I was more than happy to surf in tucows and download shareware utils for various purposes. Now I never download anything unless it's open source, for I know that you cannot hide spyware in open source software.
This is not an advertisement, it's a fact of life and a popular uprising. Not even Microsoft's massive PR efforts can keep their users happy any more. If it were an advertisement, it might have mentioned alternate platforms or placed blame where it belonged. Linux, Apple, Solaris, BSD and other systems that are not plagued were not mentioned. Instead of Microsoft's poor design and implementation, "openness" and "features" were blamed.
The easiest install I've seen to date is Simply Mepis. It runs as a live CD, so you can see if your particular system works. Most systems these days actually look better when booted into a well configured KDE desktop, which includes beautiful fonts, icons and wallpaper. When you like what you see, the install is about five mouse clicks away using a desktop icon, "installation center". It takes about 20 minutes and EVERYTHING is done in the GUI with help files and descriptions. Anyone who's suffered though a fresh Windoze install can do it. Using it is just as easy if not easier than anything Microsoft has. It just works.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I work for large dsl provider doing tech support and I talk to 2 or 3 people a day that have massive spyware issues. 1 or 2 of these people a week call just to cancel service all together because of it. Most of them are older people that dont use the internet for anything other than email or people that are not technicly inclined and find the hassle of dealing with spyware or spam out weighs the convinence, so its not suprising that they would give it up because of spam and spyware problems alone.
1. Apple
2. LiveCD - Knoppix or Slax. I prefer Slax. It fits on a mini CD, but Knoppix is more complete. Both work right "out of the box". I simply boot the CD and, viola, instant 'net.
The sad thing is that most people are going to demand a legal "solution" that could never work. They will also demand "Trusted Computing". This will provide the "ShoppingNet" that they really want. This way they'll have "DisneyNet" and the rest of us can enjoy "TimesSquareWithAllTheHookersNet" with our bootleg machines.
What?
For me, Spamgourmet.com is the solution to spam. I use this and I haven't seen a spam since I started. To make this a solution for all users, we need to integrate it into a slick web-based mail app like Gmail. Users would have to be taught to give out different mail aliases to everyone (ie. .@spamgourmet.com) and to add everyone they like to their whitelist, but if the mail app could handle sending through the alias automatically, the user would have nothing else to think about.
It's the perfect solution. Users can post addresses publicly, and the addresses will expire once spammers start abusing them. Everyone already on the whitelist can continue sending as always. The only other kind of support needed would be a tiny javascript or server-side script to generate a unique one-message-only alias (ie. spamthis7692.[1].jmcclare@spamgourmet.com) that would be posted on major public sites for company representatives. They would still see spam from the constant address harvesting a major site goes through, but they would only see one spam per successful harvest, and everyone else would still get through.
Any large company could set this up. Yes, it's a little more trouble for the user than ideal spam free email use, but updating a whitelist and learning how to hand out aliases is less trouble than changing your email address every couple of months and dealing with increasing loads of spam in the meantime.
As for spy/ad-ware, there's some nasty stuff out there, but I agree that Firefox filters most of that out.
Someone needs to make a netsafe browser for even the most clueless user. It would disable any sort of downloading, JavaScript, or anything else remotely unsafe. Yes, it would break the functionality of lots of websites ... but it's better than giving up the Internet entirely.
Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable
I'm sorry, but these people sound like complete idiots who need a computing appliance, not a completed computer. This reminds me of that rash of "sudden acceleration" stories in the late 80s or early 90s that had drivers complaining their cars where just randomly and without their input ramming into things. It turned out after investigation that these people were wildly incompetent drivers, and couldn't control what their feet were doing. If you aren't willing to take responsibility for using a tool, you're obviously not well adapted to the enivornment and should be removed from the gene pool to prevent the spread of stupid user syndrome.
Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
Msft just bought that spyware company. A month from now, adware/spyware will be non-issues, right?
except for those things I do which depend on the internet
You've pretty much neutered your entire comment. You're saying you're more productive except when you're not productive at all. Is that supposed to be good?
...because they, along with the consumer DSL providers, don't police their networks effectively enough.
My firewall logs STILL show access attempts from years-old worms, meaning that there are still idiots out there running infected machines, and still more idiots out there running unpatched machines waiting to get infected.
The ISPs typically do nothing unless I take the time to track down an abuse@ address, e-mail an appropriate excerpt from my logs, and hope I don't get blown off by some lazy tech who tells me the IP I'm reporting doesn't belong to them. (Roadrunner, I'm looking in YOUR direction!)
ISPs should have systems in place that are able to detect and immediately cut off machines on their subscriber networks that are spewing crap, but that would cut into profits-- so instead we all are made to suffer.
~Philly
I've not read the thread but it is the way go. I bought one for my mother who was very anti-net. Since using the Mac she is much more pro-net. She shops, uses e-mail, buy gifts and uses iTunes a lot. She's happy and I'm happy.
Seriously, if it's just e-mail and web access, mac is the only off the shelf solution.
I read that as saying that every internet user has the responsibility to learn about how the internet works, what dangers are lurking, and what needs to be done to avoid those dangers.
WRONG!
That responsibility exists, but shouldn't necessarily be the user's responsibility. Just to use any piece of software, you don't have to know how it works. Not all users are also developers, you know.
By using network-enabled software like browsers, a user essentially trusts browser makers to manage the interface between the web and the user. And browser makers trust the operating system below it, to manage the interface between API's and the networking hardware. That trust includes an assumption of safety/reliability/integrity. The current state of software security tells me, that trust is often misplaced.
It's an endless battle of opinions, but IMO the #1 reason for having firewalls etc. is not functionality, but the fact that operating systems, networking software, browsers and so on, are BROKEN (unreliable, buggy, insecure). If they wouldn't be, there would be few reasons to put a firewall between a househould PC and the internet. Similar goes for virus scanners, anti-spyware, etc.
It may be a full time job to keep ordinary PC's secured & 100% functional, but don't assume that should be the user's job. I guess new developments like remotely managed, limited functionality PC's (see SimPC for example) could provide some relief here for many users.
"Staying safe online has gotten too complicated for the average user to do by buying individual products and making them work together," America Online spokesman Andrew Weinstein said.
---
11 tips to keep your computer spyware free:
1. Don't visit porn sites
2. Don't visit hacker/cracker sites for illegal software
3. Don't install illegal software or use P2P. All P2P software installs spyware/adware.
4. Use mozilla, delete the internet explorer and outlook express icons from your desktop and start menu, wherever you can find it. NEVER USE IE AND OUTLOOK EXPRESS EXCEPT WHEN RUNNING WINDOWS UPDATE.
5. Do not install spyware scanners. Most install spyware themselves. I know this from experience. The legitimate ones don't work. By the time you detect you have spyware, it's too late. Nothing can get rid of it. Save your data, reformat, reinstall.
6. Never install "free" commercial software. If it's on sourceforge or fresh meat, it's not spyware. Otherwise it's spyware 99.999% of the time.
7. Get a real firewall. Firewalls that live on your pc, don't work. If you think they do, you are dead wrong.
8. Get antivirus and use it, keep it updated.
9. Only visit sites you know to not be in the ad cartel. If you visit a site and mozilla is immediately blocking popups. Run, run as fast as you can.
10. Only view email as plain text. Turn off the html.
11. Patch, patch, patch. Set your home page in internet explorer to http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com. Run windows update often.
I have been spyware, popup, adware free for over a year now by using the internet as I outlined above, and keeping my computer updated with all the patches from MS. I run a linux firewall box, you can get a firewall appliance from best buy for $50-60. I use F-Prot antivirus and let it update whenever I start my computer.
All of that crap out there advertised as spyware removal software only makes the problem worse. The legitimate adware/spyware removal does not work.
There is a zen to keeping your computer spyware/adware free. It involves the above stuff. It's more important to not engage in stupidity than it is to install 80 programs to fix a problem that either isn't there yet, or is not fixable.
Is the fact that spyware is blamed for data loss in this article. Spyware and Adware (however annoying) does NOT cause data loss! Any tech who's worth half their weight in beans knows this.
They had their computers fixed by people who obviously didn't know what the hell they were doing, charged them way too much (300 dollars for a wipe and reload? give me a break), and just basically screwed them.
Scary thing is... that I am not scared of virus, spyware, trojans, pop-ups when I am on my Mac. Granted, with a bigger Market Share... people might try to exploit holes, but Apple has a really good auto-updater that users simply have to hit "Install" on.
I like my computing experience being one of not thinking of viruses as opposed to my friends who constantly update Norton virus definitions and run Adaware.
Open letter to Intuit - I will not recommend 2005 to clients until it can run under limited user rights.
Create an easy way to overwrite critical Registry sections that are responsible for explorer tie ins. As a matter of fact, I think I'll write a tool like that.
Stop making people administrators by default, and the problem becomes localized and easily stopped.
No one remains an administrator or at least a defaultly configured Administrator after I see their PC.
Enjoy.
Leonid S. Knyshov
Find me on Quora
1. Run in user-mode 2. Use Run-As and avoid logging in as Admin 3. Be lucky
Any advice for frustrated users, especially non-technical users?
These non-technical users are the cause of all these problems. They don't know how to use their OSes, they don't want to know how to use their OSes, they think anti-virus software works, they use Internet Explorer instead of Firefox, and they buy the crap sold by spam email. My advice?
Smile and bid them farewell.
Five percent of one year's DoD budget puts us on Mars.
Sure, some may argue that people would then not have access to needed apps, but surely giving up the net connection is more of a hinderance than using linux. Are these people just not educated about alternatives to microsoft? Somebody like Mandrakesoft or Lindows should find a way to reach these people, it seems like a growing opertunity for profit.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
Just wait... when Macintosh has as many dastardly cowards pounding on it as Windowz, you will see just as many security threats and holes.
But wait, wasn't BSD secure before? Yeah, BUT MacOS isn't pure BSD, everything security related is pure Apple.
/\/\icro/\/\uncher
n/m
The only problem with the Mac Mini for a home user is that wacky thing we call human nature. For 90% of the home market, computing is a life experience that has trained them to be terrified of change. The very fact that the default Dock setup doesn't have a friendly blue 'E' for Internet Explorer could cause paralysis for those not willing to experiment to see what the computer can do and thus, learn that the compass icon points to a web browser (Safari...duh!) that is superior on many levels than IE.
This can be overcome by geeks like us who hold the hand of new Mac users who we convince to switch - my in-laws WILL be getting a Mac Mini for their next computer or I'll refuse to help them continue cleaning spyware off the system - but how many "normal" people want to learn a seperate OS from the one that they use at work - no matter how much better it may be?
Don't get me wrong - I am sold on the Mac OS X experience and have used a dual-G4/G5 alongside my Windows box for - wow! - five years now. However, I understand that Apple has a huge challenge in front of them. I'm just extremely glad that they've decided to release the Mac Mini so that they can see if the experiment is going to work.
Anyone else get a sense of "sad but true here"?
Even after the obvious responses "don't use IE", "don't use Outlook (Express)" there are still comments along the lines of "get good tools; keep them up to date".
Shouldn't life be better than this. Why is spyware an issue? Why it is necessary to have to keep anti-virsus software up to date. Why should the non-geek care?
Yes, using a PC (in the generic non-Wintel sense) is not like using a video-recorder. But shouldn't it be? Couldn't it be. Turn it on, surf, turn it off. Yes, the uneducated will click okay to whatever nefarious pop-up they see but can't technology be better than this.
FireFox (or browser-name of choice) is an achievement; it's an alternative; it may even not suffer from IE's deficiencies and weaknesses but otherwise how significant is it?
All, I'm suggesting is that alternatives are great but software needs to be really revolutionary to be genuinely useful to everyman. What's leading the way here? If MS pull off the safe-computing initiative (and it's a big if but I'd bet on them really trying with this and persisting) then will OSS fall behind? Mock them now but if it works then many eyes might make bugs shallow but will your grandmother care if she has something that "just works"?
Stop looking at so much porn!!!
If everybody was equally strong or if everyone could run the 100 meter dash in 10 seconds, there would be no mechanism to weed out the weak. There would be no evolution. (inability to reproduce due to death is THE way evolution happens) And as we all know, evolution/natural selection leads to progress and advancement.
One way of looking at the virus/spyware flood is as predatory force. The Net is simply reclaiming a balance, a natural order of things. Thus only the skilled and knowledable will survive. The dumb, the ignorant, the old, and the too-lazy-to-RTFM will not. And those that do survive will reap the great rewards that a connected cyberspace will offer.
I'm old enough that I remember when I was going to school, it was a MINORITY of students who owned their own computers. And I was one of the few, the proud. There was no Internet (well there was, but I hadn't heard of it). But for those who were connected to 2400-baud BBS's... well, we were Kings!
...because it's making you see extra zeroes. Depending on how severe the problem is, $300 is not really that far out.
/. for relationship status, personal hygene, etc. It's fun to watch "the comic book guy" on the Simpsons, but it's not fun to actually deal with such people. In fact, "the world is better off" if these jerks could learn some social skills.
Anyways, Our AC friend typifies the sort of arrogant, antisocial IT people who are mocked on
I remember a skit on SNL that hit the nail on the head--it featured "the IT guy" (played by Chris Kattan I think) that everyone in the office despised but relied on to fix their computers. He'd invariably spout a bit of technical jargon, followed by some kind of insult--along the lines of "Oh that's easy, just clear the printer queue and reinitialise, but I guess you're too STUPID to figure that out...I'm amazed you figured out how to BREATHE..."
Look, if someone carts in a home PC and has gigabytes of pictures, music and other files they want to keep, and it is so clogged with viruses and spyware that it is better just to re-install, then backing up all that stuff, re-installing the OS and configuring the system can take anywhere from a couple hours to a whole workday. If it was toward the latter end then $300 is a deal.
Calling people fools and morons and implying that they are not worthy enough to be online is not a solution. It is not acceptable to expect an average user to know all by themselves how to implement a firewall and install and maintain antivirus and antispyware--either they have to learn from somewhere or rely on experts for assistance, and both are going to take time and usually money.
The fact that we have to worry about all these precautionary measures to make our computers usable is an indication of where the industry is--basically personal computing is at the "model T" stage: now affordable and widespread but very unrefined and with unrealised potential.
I gave up the Internet quite some time ago due to SPAM and SPYWARE.
Some car drivers stopped driving because it was quite a bit of work putting gas in their car. And don't even get me started about filling the tires with air...
BUY A MAC \\
they rulez!
Repeat after me: Average users don't care what OS they run.
Take my wife and my mother. Both of them are fairly astute computer users who understand the need for firewalls and antivirus, and they generally avoid unsafe behavior (and, thus, most malware).
Like nearly everyone else, they don't want to use Linux. They don't want to use Mac OS, either. They don't even want to use Windows! They want to use a word processor, email, the web, and other assundry applications, not an OS.
Neither of them wants to expend an ounce of energy installing or configuring an OS, regardless of how easy (or even geekily fun) it may be, because they don't want to have to think about their OS at all. If Windows gets screwed up on their machines, they'd both rather buy a new system than mess with fixing it. It's not that they don't understand the unnecessity of that, or that they don't care about the inherent waste, it's that doing that would require them to think about and become somewhat expert in things (like operating systems) that distract from their main computer uses.
And I propose that they're typical of most of the population.
So make the installation of any OS as dog simple and non-technical as you want -- it won't matter. Unless it comes from the store pre-configured on the machine, most people will never ever give a moment's thought to installing it.
Yeah, and then everyone will get a Linux-box, and then Linux will suddenly become a lucurative platform for that sort of garbage, and then...
If the market is de-monopolized, say, for example 25% mac, 25% linux, 25% windows, 25% solaris, a single flaw won't shut everything down, and spyware and viruses will have a much harder time to spread.
Well, it was funny to me, in the ironic sense, which is why I wrote it. And, for those who wished to think more carefully on the subject, they would likely have realized that the things I do that require the internet only require it because I am an avid internet user and a less technical user, what this story was about, would not be in such a predicament.
I have some non-technical friends (recent Central American immigrants to the US), whose computer basically came to a halt because of all the malware they picked up online. The only cure was a complete OS re-install.
So some people might "give up" on the Internet, others may just have their computer become basically useless.
Pull the plug!
I have a close friend who is fairly proficient, but he's encountered a lot of spyware/malware/adware problems even though he runs adaware, spybot, etc. He built another PC that he uses for his work (music) that isn't connected to the internet. He's said that he has fewer problems with that box and that he just feels more secure. If he needs to get on the internet, he just goes to one of his other boxes that's connected.
I'm begging you to buy a Mac pleas.e
If Mac OS managed to become the mainstream OS thanks to fed up windows users, it would draw the attention of spyware, virus makers and eventually become as much as infested. Pretty much the same with Linux.
Well, close enough.
But I've known several people who have given up on the internet because of spam, nevermind spyware.
My wife is one. She really doesn't care for computers much. She only started using email when I was in Europe on business for a week, and our schedules made phone calls difficult. She liked it enough to keep using it, but she never used it much. So when she was getting several hundred spams a week, vs 1 or 2 real emails a week, she just gave up. She goes to the Yelow Pages and information and calling friends rather than using the web. I can't say that I blame her.
I think the best thing we can do is apply 19th century Texas justice. We can start with the UT student they just busted. If he's guilty, string him up from the highest light pole on I35 for the whole world to see. Run it on every news program for a week; ``Spammers, we're coming for you.''
These guys are costing us hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars, and wasting the single, most precious commodity we have -- time. By intergalactic ore hauler loads.
and I did something similar with a medical colleague 3 weeks ago.
His Dell laptop had become unusable... there were probably more gigabytes of viruses and trojans than there were system files. I helpfully sent him a DVD version of Mandrake 10.
It took me 10 minutes on the phone for him to have a fully-functioning system (and he only called because he needed to know what kind of video hardware his laptop was using). Keep in mind that this guy is totally non-technical; he's never used a *nix system, and knows absolutely ZERO command-line.
Linux has come a long way from the old days. His comment when using KDE? "hey, this is pretty much like windows!"
Cha-Ching.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
The less of these people on my net, the happier I will be. These are the spam zombies, html email senders, top posters, microserf addicts. WHo needs them? We will all be better off.
So... you want to read/write email and surf the net? Nothing more, nothing too fancy?
Get an al-cheapo terminal:
1. That's a (used?) PC with max. 1GHz and about 128/256 MB RAM in it (easy to get, cheap, nobody wants them),
2. put Gentoo Linux on it (free, fat step-by-step installation handbook),
3. install Firefox or Mozilla (the single command "emerge mozilla" will do just this for you, no brains needed),
4. install AdBlock,
5. get a simple firewall (usually in your router - good enough for now),
6. Profit!
Er, I mean, That's it!
Your system will be nice and safe, you can email about as much as you want (I use Mozilla for the Email as well - dirt easy to setup), you can surf safely...
To simply try this out, all you need to do is get a cheap piece of hardware, put Knoppix in the CD, and boot. See if you like it. If you do, go to step 2 above.
*shrug*
Anything more complex (online games, MMORPG, etc) will require a bit more thought and effort.
But this simple system, used just for mom & pops internet activities, will do fine otherwise.
Ciao,
Klaus
PS: (Yes, yes, it can do much more, printer spooler, router, bla bla, I know. This is just TSS (The Simple Setup)).
Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
Ask a non-computer person what "install" means, and they'll talk about putting up a paper towel holder under the cabinets with screws. An "easy" install is only easy until you get asked a question you don't know. Depending on how important the question was, you may have to start over later. Just think about it if you could fix your car the same way, and it asked you some obscure question: "Do you want to reflush the intake valves with water or oil?"
They are perfect. I never had a crash ever.
There are no viruses. They are 20 times faster than Windoze. There are no spaywares. You want to be cool dont you?
Dont be a fag, buy a Mac!
They will run all your programs
When I boot on windows, it's to play Half Life 2. And last time windows was connected to the internet was in order to REGISTER Half Life 2. I don't even play to Counter Strike, because I am fed up with Windows sucking security.
RIP Slashdot. I used to love you. dead account - but slashdot wont let me delete it.
Now you have no choice but 2 Buy a Macintosh! They are open-Source so they are immune to viruse and spywares!!
Buy today! You will not be sorry! I am happy Mac user since 1975 and haven never had aproblem!!
[a href= "http://www.apple.com"] Apple Rules!![/a]
I set my tech-challenged parents up with an old Mac running OSX. They don't have any of these issues and I'm no longer called to fix things.
It was a better place before you all showed up.
word.
Today I entered an official administration for my non-profit organisation yearbook delivery... While in talk I asked him if I could use his computer to downoad one missing paper from my .mac email account.
I tried but soon I realised his computer was a dangerous machine (not for me directly, but...). It seemed badly corrupted , unable to go to the site I wanted. I tried some other links, but I got directly to some kind of viagra promo site... The man seemed to not understand his machine was full of apparently bad viruses or spyware - corrupted anyhow. Probably he did'n tell his superior, maybe he was infected while visiting a site he should not, I don't know . But I was wondering how many of these governement computers ARE badly protected. Any figures? We wo't know for shure - but they are dealing with our information about our organisations etc, so this is not good don't you think?
yamarnez
This is what I actually recommend to friends and family who want to surf the net securely and still use Windows.
1. Installation
a. Divide your hard drive into two partitions, even though with large drives size isn't an issue anymore.
b. Install the base OS (including patches) on the C: drive. Do this offline, and install the patches from CD.
c. Install an antivirus application (do not install two or more, because they will probably be incompatible with each other, and you will not gain any benefit from it!)
d. Install a personal firewall and 1 or more spyware/adware scanners.
e. Install any patches/updates for your antivirus, firewall, and spyware/adware scanner applications. Again, do it from a CD, not the net. At this point, you should not be online yet!
f. Install the base set of applications you plan to use, including all patches if possible. I recommend that this include an alternative browser to IE and an alternative mail client to Outlook.
g. Assign your My Documents, Favorites, and other important data folders to a path on the D: drive. You will be keeping all data on the D: drive.
2. Configuration
a. Disable all unnecessary Windows services, like the messaging service.
b. If the person using this computer is an experienced Windows user, Power User rights might be acceptable. Otherwise, for day-to-day activities, use a regular User account.
c. Once Windows is configured to an acceptable level, use a backup/imaging application to image the C: drive to a bootable CD-ROM.
3. Maintenance
a. Enable automatic Windows Updating. If an update is installed, create a new backup image.
b. If you install a new application, create a new backup image.
c. Schedule automatic updates of your antivirus and firewall software. If your last backup image has definitions older than 1 month, create a new backup image.
d. Keep ALL data on the D: drive and scan BOTH drives regularly with your antivirus and spyware/adware scanners. I recommend a weekly scan.
e. Make weekly (or maybe more frequently) backups of your data.
So far, this method has proven remarkably successful.
I, for one, welcome their departure. The boxes of the inpatient and advice-deaf are the very sources of a lot of the spam infecting the net.
Don't forget to not write!
I'm even a programmer, blogger, and all-around geek, and I'm also so fed up with the garbage on the internet that I can barely stand it. The solution in our house:
The "Village Idiot" model. Of all the computers in the house, only ONE is connected to the internet. It is an old bear of a crufted-together bitty-box, running...guess what? Winduhs 98. After all, it's solely Microsoft's fault that we have such lax standards that internet criminals were allowed to gain such a foothold. So, Windows is the "Village Idiot" whose job it is to talk to the internet. The installation disks are ready at hand(acquired free like the machine was, of course! I'm too stinkin' proud to pay for a microsoft product!), just "format C:\" the drive and re-load it as necessary. There are about ten anti-virus/spam/adware/anti-stupidity-in-general programs on the machine, as a token gesture. No software protection will ever work. I also manually scrub the file system weekly, and the family knows better than to even attempt to save any file on this machine. That's what the other computers and the stack of floppy disks are for. The floppies get scanned on a Linux.
The other computers get to run the REAL operating systems and do the REAL work...this method isn't foolproof, but it's so good that I bet there's only 1% of the scumbags on the net that could figure out how to get around all that. And never mind what system is less vulnerable, more robust, etc. Just let the "Village Idiot" get raped by the mess it created, and protect the GOOD computers.
PS My wife also has WebTV. Surf the net that way, there's NO HARD DRIVE TO INFECT! I predict that in the future, using the internet will be more like cell phone usage or WebTV and will have less and less to do with computers. Thank God, maybe the September that never ended will at last go away!
This week alone I have helped several people in my personal life and co-workers get rid of junk either they or the person before them had installed on their machine.
If these folk are taking their virus ridden, spyware laden computers from the network.... well great!
I hate to be that guy and say they should not use a computer but it's true. I would cut them some slack a year ago but to be complaining that the spyware you installed on your computer is the last straw and you are giving up your dsl? All I can say is...bye!
Knoppix.
If you should get attacked, or just paranoid, pull the plug and restart it.
There's nothing on the internet of great value that requires a hard drive.
penis enlargement spam or any other non-solicited email.
.
Get rid of Outlook and IE try Thunderbird and Firefox. Look at the new Mac mini or try Linux.
You really don't need to know what the weather is doing every 30 seconds and try googling the name of that new file downloading program and anti-spyware software to see what other people are saying
Its not that flippen hard people just use some of that not so common sense, people are out to get you!
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
when my dad told me he wanted a computer the very first thing i did was familiarize him with Linux. i knew he was the type that wouldn't listen to my best advice and not click here and install there and try to watch the latest j-lo video or install desktop babes software. so without the ability to install these apps he was home free. for nearly 4 years my dad was trouble free with his Linux box and his cable modem. but this christmas he bought himself a laptop with windows xp. the first thing is did was install FireFox (and set it as the default), thunderbird, and OpenOffice. i made sure he couldn't figure out how to open IE or Outlook. i think told him to not open an attachment unless it came from me. so far so good. but he is using XP and i'm sure that within the year he'll be wanting me to either install Linux on the laptop or i'll have to re-install XP.
nature loves variety::society hates it get your variety at http://www.monkeypantz.net
Of course, what is a non-techie to do?
Just now i visited http://www.bbcworld.com/clickonline .
And i get a HSBC POP UP AD ! I really did not expect pop up ads from someone like BBC!
I thought only cheap sites do it !
Are pop ads so inevitable - especially when sites themselves [ in this case BBC - click online - the tech programme! ] know that pop ups are annoying to users ?
Hm.....
Jus wondering,How long before slashdot.org brings in popup ads?
Why does yahoo do this
That's the equivalent of using a Windows box on the internet.
A Windows box is fine for word-processing and playing games, just like a bicycle is fine for most roads.
More internet for me!
There's an interesting article titled "How to fix Mom's computer", check it out. This is a ritual many of us go through during visits and this article sums it up beautifully.
A Mac Mini would be perfect for someone like this. However, there are a lot more people out there who are fed up with it, but aren't ready to throw the PC out the Window. That is the real target audience for the Mac Mini. Trust me, there are literally millions out there who are sick and tired, and are looking for a soluiton. That's why I believe that, like the iPod, the Mac Mini will be the right solution at the right time.
I ordered one yesterday and I can't wait for it to arrive. It's my first Mac. I'll still keep my PC around for gaming. If I like it, I'll start saving for a dual PowerMac G5 with a cinema display. I'll probably wait until after Tiger is released, to avoid the upgrade fee.
Spam almost pushed my mom off the 'net for good. She was so upset at all the spam she gets in her email every day that she was just about to stop using email at all, when I got home for Christmas. And she's not getting pron spam; she's getting spam from "rolex" manufacturers, and -- get this -- yarn companies, because she's ordered yarn online before (and asked to NOT be put on any mailing lists; I was there when she did, and she shouldn't be on any distributed mass-emailing lists).
I told her to calm down, and give me a couple of hours (she's on dial-up, which is good for me, because it meant very little spyware). I did just what many of the people here have done, and suggested.
She had XP SP2 installed (ordered the CDs from Microsquish), so the firewalling was sufficient. I simply downloaded and ran SpyBot, AdAware, and AVGAntiVirus (love the free version!) and tried to get the really nasty crap off the computer.
Then I downloaded Thunderbird, had it import all of her contacts and emails from Outlook (it didn't deal with "groups" lists of emails very well, but did everything else perfectly), and showed her how it's going to be a little (but not much) different.
She was actually looking *forward* to getting some spam, so she could train the filters, and sometimes emails me saying, "I got such-and-such junk, but that program you put on knew it was spam, and put it in the Junk folder for me! And all the good stuff is coming through!"
Dog bless Thunderbird.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Mod me down as a troll if you like, but if we can get more of these spam-sending virus-spreading uneducated assholes off the internet, the proliferation of these programs will decrease! Do we NEED more lusers on the web?
I'm all for customer education, but if they aren't smart enough to fix their problem, or have enough money to get it fixed, than FUCK 'em!!
No spyware, no viruses, and the Spam filters in Mail.app are very good.
Problem solved.
The reason Macs don't get hit with spyware problems as much is because the biggest bang for an evil buck is in the Windows world. There was a comparison of default security settings of various flavors of Windows, Linux, and MacOS. The result was that the Mac was least secure by default.
Remember spyware and virus writers are targeting people, not operating systems. The more people using Macintosh computers the more incidents of instrusions on Macs there'll be.
A friend recently bought an iBook quite specifically without a wireless card, so that he can get away from his desktop G4 where he is of course online all the time. He found it impossible to do any useful work because he would always be distracting himself with a spot of surfing or p0rn or whatever. He asked me would it be possible to remove the ethernet port, but we decided if we were going to do that we'd have to remove the firewire port too, to really get rid of all networking possibilities, and that would be getting extreme. It's not exactly a problem with the actual net, of course, more his problem with self-discipline that's driving his decision...
I know the feeling very well myself, but haven't yet had the courage to cut the cord.
So that takes care of some of the problems, but things like auto installers in web pages or worms/viruses that can get into your system just from having it turned on and unpatched are a little different.
So what is the right answer? Who's to say. I use Firefox and keep Win2k fully patched, but somehow I got a program group of links to porn sites and one to the program files folder added to my start menu without me doing anything. Nothing new in the add remove programs, spy sweeper didn't find anything, giant didn't find anything, and microsoft's beta spyware program didn't find anything. I was able to manually delete the unasked for files, but still I don't like that trying to be as cautious as I could be I still got some junk on my computer.
Non-technical users: Get a Mac.
Technically-advanced users: Install Linux, any of the BSDs, or whatever floats your boat.
Seriously. Windows is the problem. Other operating systems are the solution.
Before you shoot yourself, shoot the source first. I don't ordinarily advocate violence but in this case I just might. These bastards harm others as part of their business model. I cannot think of of a more deserving target for attack.
I have a friend who lives a few doors away. He's been having a lot of trouble with spyware. Porn ads popping up all day long. It was making his PC a pain to use even after a neighbor spent a few hours trying to clean it out. This same friend also likes to tell me about how much audio and video he's downloaded he's downloaded using the web and p2p.
It's pretty obvious what's going on. Your machine gets cluttered with spyware if you spend time on sketchy web sites downloading all and sundry and doesn't otherwise.
My solution is pretty simple - if I'm going to download porn off the web I use a Mac.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
If there are less of these kind of users on the Net, then there is a decrease in the target audience of all the spam and spyware we put up with.
If we're lucky then eventually, we will even see an end to the Septermber that never ended...
Don't say you weren't thinking it!
Uh, once you've typed that, you pretty well rule your perceptions out of the "non-technical" category, at least for this reader. Your assessment of what's challenging and what's easy as pie might not be quite at the same level as my 73-year-old father.
(Dad loves his PowerBook, by the way. He'll panic if someone else has logged in on it, though, because he forgets the whole multiple account thing. Thinks it's a virus. Most anything he can't figure out, he thinks is a virus. Iget calls, oh, once every six months.)
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
(I only know that because Firefox told me)
...and fax you the pages.
666-607: 6th floor apartment of the beast
...more bandwidth for me!
Their spam protection is excellent and its much more difficult to "automatically" execute a binary if you have to download it first.
Combine that with Firefox and ymessenger and they have a lot of what makes Internet great without much risk.
My solution for those having trouble with spy ware... step 1: Go to Apple.com step 2: click on store step 3: click on Mac mini step 4: take out credit card step 5: buy step 6: there is no step six
The reality of "white flight" proves that this is no insignificant imposition. Tens of millions in the US alone are acting to counter your imposition of the globe upon them, for once the globe is admitted to the US the US imposes them on private associations therein. This problem now applies to all European-derived countries. Merely because people want to associate with those more related to themselves is no reason to deny them their basic human rights as all countries of European derivation are now doing.
Seastead this.
Mac mini.
Uh, what's the problem? Just follow the rules: 1. Spam is obvious. Just delete it. 2. Clicking on something will not win you anything. Don't be so stupid and greedy. 3. Do NOT use your real e-mail address for anything public. Use a throwaway account. 4. Don't know what it is? Don't open/execute/run it! Google it first. 5. Nobody cares if your computer clock is wrong or your memory may be running low, etc. Nothing is "free", so don't download it. 6. If you can't do the above, STFU.
*_my garage is my home_*
but I gave up on the Internet.
Reject Fear - Embrace Hope
Virtual PC Should be able to run
the low-end kids games pretty well, and you can compartmentalize
the windows section, keep it from accessing the net, etc.
Hey, those new $499 mini Macs look perfect for the living area.
I guess you could do the same thing with WINE as well, but I'll let someone else try to sell that idea.
Anyone who's thrown up their hands in exasperation is merely confirming the obvious: that Windows is not for non-technical users.
Windows users are "early adapters" of a well marketed strategic technological campaign: To take over the world with a system that is not yet ready for the masses, by any means necessary.
Mac OS X is easy enough for my 2.8 year old boy, as well as his technophobic grandma! Try one and see for yourself..
Now, who will tell it to those poor old people who've already given up?-) *shrug* Wish I could..
Abuzz
I guess they can use the money they save by disconnecting their connection to buy pornography at a magazine stand instead of trying to get it for free online. Especially that boy scouts leader.
"You have the right to remain fabulous!" -Chief Clancy Wiggam
Ok, I'm not going to run on about "it's all Windoze's fault". That's been beaten to death. What I will comment on is this quote : "The FTC last fall filed its first case against a spyware company accused of using a security flaw in Internet Explorer to cram system-glutting programs into the machines of visitors to its website. But current fraud laws only allow regulators to recover ill-gotten gains -- no matter how much more damage the bad guys have inflicted." That sounds to me like "Hey, we have to get a law passed so we can sue everyone for everything they have, even if the spyware only trashed my pr0n collection. To me that was worth at least $5 million so I should sue for $5 million". But, as it's based in the USA, that's the way things work. If you need money, sue somebody.
It is most unfortunate that there are so many bad products out there which cause people to actually leave the internet. Just the idea of that makes me wince. *sigh* Ever since I gave up windows and started to think before I gave out my email, I've had no problems. I do, however, think that "easy-to-use" linux distros such as Lindows (oh excuse me, Linspire) will lead to just as much hassle.
ZX2C4
They would be better off giving up the computer, since adware/spyware has already been downloaded to their computer, and most of the time, to display ads, there is no need for a network connection. Because the ad is already ON their machine. But the people who are giving up the internet are STUPID. Hey, I don't know much about cars, but there's no way in hell I'm going to give up my car because I have car problems every few months.
get off my intarweb!
When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
MiniMac, like MiniMe, is immune to spyware for now. However, if you have ever used email on a mac, you will know that spam is not a "to windows only" phenomenon!
" people just have to have those silly apps that only work in windows, for them, the future is not so bright"
Ir maybe you really do think that "email" is a silly windows-only app?
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
We can continue building better, faster, more accurate spam blockers, spyware hunters and virus scanners... but why not just tell people:
- Don't use Outlook
- E-mail is as private as a postcard
- Never buy anything that you've been spammed about, no mater what
- Etc, etc, etc
The majority of people who drive can tell you what the muffler is, what a mile/kilometre is, whether they have manual or automatic transmission, etc. The majority of people who use computers hear things like, "This is a 20GB iPod" and reply "That means nothing to me!" This is what we expect to hear, so we talk about the number of songs that it could hold.Whereas:
"I don't know! Help me! Auuuugh!"
sounds insane.
Are iPods really more complicated than cars?
So, we should limit account permissions and use software that was designed with security in mind, but maybe we (as an industry) should stop thinking of every user as being completely unable to learn new things.
Instead of "Mac OS X for Dummies," why not "Mac OS X for Jesus Christ Are You Saying That People Like Issac Newton Were From Another Species Or Something Grow Up Already Goddammit!"
The US Army: promoting democracy through unquestioned obedience
And good riddance to them! More tasty spam for me.
[BIG RANT]
*sigh* ok, let me clue you nerds in. I have to get this out because it's an endless debate between some of the most myopic people on the Internet claiming to be the most informed.
I know we're probably a good 300 posts into this thread already and this posting of mine will be lost, but I feel the need to intervene anyway;
Some thoughts, from what I see here:
1) Normal joe/jill average users don't want to, and shouldn't have to, make checking e-mail and surfing the web a second job. So keeping up with every latest turn in the spyware/adware/spam drama is not an option. Your "it's that simple" solution isn't that simple to people who aren't immersed in computer culture 24 hours a day. Drop the faux-Darwinism routine and join us in what I like to call "real life". We're over here, in the sun.
2) Normal joe/jill average users WILL NOT run more than one computer for seperate tasks. This is insanity to begin with. Don't take your desk as an example of a normal computer user. You may have a room dedicated to your four boxes with various chips and OSes, but no normal human wants to do that. They want A box, with A monitor, and A device to interact with that box. They want a TV with a keyboard, but one that won't force them to download porn or send and recieve spam. The solution isn't a NeXT box for checking e-mail and a Sparc for web surfing, with a Windows NT 4 box off network for accounting, or some other absurd scenario.
3) Normal joe/jill users will want to run some fairly mainstream programs. If you're running AutoCAD, or MSSQL, or Cybertrader, you're a professional so the rules above no longer apply. Normal joe/jill average users want e-mail, fun web pages, The Sims maybe, Quicken. They want to buy a CD or a book online maybe, if they're feeling fancy. No crazy NASA shit. Don't hold them to your twisted standards of what normal people do with computers.
Where am I going with this? The only logical recourse at the moment is to get an Apple Macintosh for these users who are not computer dependant or who are not computer experts.
I know you all hate to hear it (other than the Mac fanboys who love to hear it, but let's just tolerate them for a moment). It's the only mainstream path for people who are trying to make joe/jill average user's computer experience workable. I've done it. I've set people up on Apples. I don't get calls about computers! They talk to me about them, but only to say how much they want to hug the damn things.
Regarding the proposition of a Linux desktop for these people. If you want to inflict frustration or dependancy on the normal joe/jill average user you're trying to help, if controlling them through reliance on your godlike technical abilities is your bag, by all means set them up with a Linux desktop. You can claim to have grandma set up on linux, and all your friends will pat you on the back for being such a wise advocate. Your grandma will use her computer all of the one time she can remember he login and password. Then when her $2000 investment in technology is worthless to her, and she calls for help to get some sort of value out of it, you can sigh call her dumb under your breath for not knowing how to operate an expert level OS. Hope you feel big...
You people frustrate me beyond words sometimes.
Luck favors the prepared, darling.
I remember that in September 2002 I was using another operating system in frustration. However, rather than "pull the plug", I simply became a "switcher"! Best "uptime" to date is 155 days. That's "without" a single crash of any kind, and/or, I think the term was, "rebooting", which for me is now a thing of the past! And the only reason that it is not any higher than that today is because I relocated to Southern California from the San Francisco Bay Area. It really saddened me to "pull the plug" on my PowerMac, otherwise, it would now still be reliably running for over a year! That said, my I suggest that those of you who are in "frustration", seek one of the alternative Operating Systems. Do a little research and you may very well come to the same conclusion I did just over two years ago. I could go on, but the bottom line is, remember, there's no reason to continue in your frustration!
Lynx! Can you say ASCII art porn revival?
The message?
Linux is NOT susceptible to the woes that plague the Windows platform: viruses, spybots, adware.
Email viruses are as likely to penetrate Linux as a bug is likely to pass through the windshield. Spybots for Linux don't exist. Adware is blocked easier than it takes to say how.
All these people whining about their internet experience are making ONE BIG ASSUMPTION: Windows is the only OS in town.
Last weekend I helped 5 people find out about Linux. A week later they report NO viruses, no spybots, and no adware. No crashes either. One is connecting to the web via a wireless that was configured using Windows sys and inf files, wrapped with ndiswrapper, so Windows software isn't totally worthless.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
1. Develop browsers with more and more features (JavaScript, Flash, ...), promise that they make life easier for users. ...), promise they make life easier.
2. Wait until features are used to annoy customer.
3. Develop more software and hardware (Mac Mini,
4. Profit!!!
where's all that Karma?
You've got to be kidding me! Objections from Symantec! This is evil! In other words, Congress wanted to make spyware illegal, but Symantec thought that was a bad idea. Am I reading this right? Is this printed right?
I am a computer consultant by trade, does that mean I should be lobbying against these laws? Certainly, I make money, in fact, very good money, from removing spyware from people's PC's; I wouldn't even flinch at an anti-spyware law. I hope for the sake of all that is good and right that I misread this quote, because if Symantec lobbied against spyware laws just so they could make more money on selling anti-spyware software, then we really are headed to hell in a handbasket, and I need to just start screwing as many people over as possible before we arrive at our destination.
I mean, seriously, how about if home builders started lobbying against fire codes, or the funeral home business start lobbying against laws requiring brakes in all automobiles? This is ludicrous, and can not be tolerated!
-Arthur
Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
Even if your computer isn't vulnerable, you're still paying in terms of the bandwidth used up, both from machines outside the ISP sending virus mail into the network, and compromised machines within the network wasting outgoing bandwidth.
Without any hard numbers, I have to wonder if the cost in terms of software and additional processing power to scan for most viruses wouldn't be offset by the savings in outgoing compromised bandwidth being reduced.
Apple is now selling $500 computers. I'll bet their mailer and browser are not susceptible to these problems.
Block your native OS with ZoneAlarm and install VMWare or VPC. Open ZoneAlarm only for the Virtual env. Install another OS in the virtual environment and browse the internet thru that. If you have a spyware/virus problem - fine - trash it and restore it. Actually do the restore every other week if you run a Microsoft OS.
And - never never visit the any site from your native OS - no matter what browser.
Also use common sense when you store "important" files and receipts.
Use old Windows. I like Win98. Touched by almost nothing. It's less efficient in some areas, but it works. (Though I just got my first copy of Knoppix. Will be playing with that over the weekend!)
Firewall. Blocks most of the web crap you might run into. Tells you if some rogue software on your machine is trying to connect to the web and lets you kill it. Blocks those annoying insta-viruses Win2K has to worry about from simply connecting to the web. I like Zonealarm.
Mozilla. Kills pop-ups. Allows massive control over your browsing experience. Right click those jarring animated gifs out of existence!
Don't download, don't open any file you didn't ask for. Spam is a scam. Nobody wants to give you a million dollars.
Follow these simple rules, and too can have a great computer for only $500 dollars. If, however, you are not the type who has the time or interest in computers beyond just using the software, get a Mac. The extra cash you blow is worth the trouble, because you'd spend it anyway in time and stress if you don't know how to run a PC.
-FL
Two can play at this game!
Giving the average person a Windows PC is like giving a teenager a Porsche and all the beer that they can drink.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Especially with the Mac mini being available next weekend.
Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, START
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
>>But 2004 "was a real turning point in a bad direction," said technology analyst Ted Schadler of Forrester Research. "People are getting really angry. They're angry at Dell and Microsoft and their cable providers, and that's appropriate. They should be."
;)
yep. and we all should have a class action lawsuit against GM, Ford, and every car manufacturer for hideous traffic we encounter in our commute to and from work, causing undue mental, emotional, physical stress and trauma.
>>"I thought it was going to be like a television set -- I'm going to sit right in front of it all day and have some control and learn things, scan for airfare and travel," the former Grumman Aerospace Corp. engineer said from Homosassa, Fla.
and ain't that the problem? a computer is NOT as simple as a tv set, but the marketing departments of various computer makers would have you believe otherwise.
>>Enacting new federal bills "would be helpful," said Lydia Parnes, acting director of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection. Spyware "needs to be understandable to consumers, and it needs to be presented in a way that's kind of visible to them." Even if a strong law passes, Parnes said she didn't know whether the average computer user would be any better off in three years.
ain't it a shame? when consumers don't put the effort to learn how to use a product, and it causes problems or as a result breaks, who's to blame? even regarding education, there aren't too many people who want to spend money to learn how to use something as 'simple' as a computer. at least that means job security for help desk employees.
>>"It's great for anything you can do on your own," he said. "It seems to me an incredible typewriter -- and that's it."
crying shame people think of the computer as such a simple device. perhaps people like that would be actually better off without computers. they should go back to those old school word processors with those dinky monochome monitors.
At the large local government I work at (16000+ machines...ours specifically number over 1000) we have many cases of bizarre spyware issues causing hours of outages on different machines...all under WinNT 4 and very restricted user permissions.
I also get many complaints from workers about their home systems and after consulting with the most novice users bi-weekly about how to avoid these problems they come back again and again and again. It's hard to keep people up to speed when the ground shifts and new methods of infection abound.
Thus my advice is like many others here. I evaluate what the users need from their computers and then suggest a timetable for switching to the Mac. I had one very novice user consult me on a business/personal laptop purchase and I routed the person to a Mac G4. I have not heard from the user since then and it's been five months. That's all that counts...the person is good to go, will have few if any problems and can concentrate on WORK. My windows users have ten different things to keep in the backs of their minds on what to avoid on the "web" at any given time. That's BEHIND a corporate firewall. Confusion reigns.
So yeah...whine and gripe about the Mac vs PC issue. I do different work on each platform. I'm an expert user on both so I'm biased only towards two things: functionality and required maintenance. Right now all my novice users are being steered towards Mac purchases. Those that have macs love them and that's all that counts.
It certainly does not work better. (Read article and follow-up)
While i loved Steve's Apples from 81 on to 91, still do, I've learned that PCs have been the bang for the buck with plenty more options and price value than any mac i've seen - despite all the cowxrements that come out of marketing and publicity which dumb people buy as the gospel. Professionally, either makes sense, personally, if you are marketing gullible or not PC oriented, get a Mac. If you are serious about computing a bit further for a more economic and wider approach, the PC and the clone market is unbeatable - no questions asked! Unless you like the free and costless time consuming Linux who still can't read decapitalized text for what it's worth!
And if spyware is your fear, just go mozilla, or firefox with adblock - no more pops, no more ads, no more market polution to clog the net! Buy a good antivirus (do your research which fits best) and a worthy firewall. Learn to use them like kungfu!
Still that wont help if you dont read and learn that a bit of prevention is worth terabytes of regrets!
The buddists said it first 2000 years ago! "if it's printed, beware!" In other words, read first and complain less after!
Now, if only companies would listen to support's clients' suggestions and apply them once and for all, we wouldn't have this crapware or passware (passoire in french - a drain bowl for spaggs like, get it, chuck chuck!)
Dead Wood.
I converted several of my customers to Linux recently for exactly this reason. The fun is that I don't have to really push it anymore. I just walk into the place for a lunch or to talk with the business owner and they start asking me about it :-) This is a new experience for me and I think it is a very important signal that users are fed up with it... Thanks M$!
well, it's been months since I bothered to look at slashdot, and nothing has changed.
still full of the self rightous ms bashing kiddies and thier feeders!
Instead of bashing ms at every fucking thread, why not offer some REAL help (as a very small faction has).
MS has bugs
Linux has bugs
Unix has bugs
all fucking code has some bugs!!!! the bugs can be related to the logic, the compiled instructions, or misinformed self rightous zealot configuration errors...
Now that I have staited this, I'll once again ignore the slashdot site, may return in another 6 months to a year (if it is still around).
Hopefully the postings will no longer be based on misinformed ignorent little ms-bashing bandwagon riders (who have no fucking clue how to cfg a ms box).
ps. I am a Systems admin using linux and ms os's on over 2000 units, so I do have a clue...(unlike the linux-wannabe-zealots that are bashing MS)
Buying a Mac is only a short term solution. If Apple gains enough market share, then people will start to code spyware and viruses for the Mac.
Myth:
Mac's are invunerable to exploits.
Truth:
Mac's are not yet used by enough of the population to catch attention of those that write malicious code.
A better answer would be to educate people - that will permanently fix the problem.
There is always a frontier where there is an open and willing mind
My aunt and uncle recently gave up on computers. They had one a while ago that got bogged down and stopped working. Then recently they bought a new one and within one day it stopped working due to viruses et el.
:)
Suffice to say they decided to pack it away and never use it again.
Like someone else said: I'll fix it for $1000.
Anyways this is why Apple decided to build the Mac Mini, its the almost perfect solution to a lot of entry user's dilemmas. The average PC owner is almost completely in the dark when it comes to most technologies. The average Windows User has almost no idea of what he/she is supposed to do to maintain a Windows OS. They are just clueless.
Linux is a great alternative but a lot of these people (the target audience for the Mac Mini) is just out of their league. Meantion sudo to them and they'll just stare at you blankly. A lot of people have PCs just to do the basic things, Windows does suffice some of the time. But usually there are too many problems. Most people just want to be able to chat, email, surf, print, write papers, organize photos, and so forth. Not all that easy on a Linux box, and more trouble than its worth for Windows.
Don't get me wrong I have a Linux box and a Windows box. I only use the Windows box for gaming, thats all that it really excels at. I use Linux for a lot of my programming, webserving, hosting, and other tech savy needs. My Mac I use for everything else. Its that everything else that Apple is banking on. They know that people just want to be able to do something easily, safely, and quickly.
I agree that the reason that Linux and MacOS X don't have spyware problems is that Windows is the biggest bang for the evil buck, as you say, but could you perhaps back up your statement about Mac being less secure by default with a link?
And $500 is a lot of money when you can just get Mepis. It's a newbie friendly live CD that has a nice GUI installer. Five clicks through a GUI and you have it. I think it does dual boot too, so there's no need for the extra clunker with Winblows or a new Mac. After a while of using spamassasin to block spam and Mozilla or Konqueror to browse the clean web, you will come to love your old PC again.
Macs are nice, but you can have your old PC and make it useful with free software. There are a few areas in which the Mac still excells but there are fewer and fewer of them.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
If he uses Autocad, and needs it at home... then possibly I can see a need to use Windows. There are Mac CAD products though.
Does it look like windows 2000? If not I doubt it, it confuses them.
You your father is smart enough to operate a CAD program but not learn a new OS? Something is odd here.
Why it is just something else to learn!!
I guess if they never encounter spyware or viruses or use IE there may be no reason to switch. But if they are truly as ignorant of computers as you say I would be very, very worried about them being hit by something eventually. Someone that clueless is exactly who should be using a Mac.
I just think it is very easy for people who understand technology and think it is cool and interesting to learn about new ways of working and new systems to say switch OS or switch platform. It is not that easy when you think of a PC as a clever typewriter and you are scared that there is an icon for blow up house that you might click on by mistake.
I assume you are talking about your mom since your dad can work CAD programs...
I really think you have too little faith in your parents. In about 1/2 hour you could walk them through what they need to do to read email and browse the web and perhaps even play with photos.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I haven't had access in my home for about 3 years now. Everything I need I can do at work or a freinds home, or perhaps an open WAP if the need is dire.
I was tired of the prices I had to pay compared to the quality of service (or lack thereof), and of people constantly trying to hack my network.
I just said the hell with it all, cancelled my DSL and turned everything off. Perhaps someday I may well take that ride again, but for now my 30+ systems are just collecting dust. I have one laptop that I dug out of the mess and use that for most everything that I can't get accomplished on my work machine.
If broadband costs were to take a downturn (perhaps 25 or 50% lower than they are) then I may fire up something short-term, otherwise I can't see a reason to spend $80 or $100 a month for a service that has perhaps 70% availability month-to-month and that would allow most anyone with enough time and know-how to enter my equipment and mess it up.
I'd rather save my money for paintball.
Things you can say to your dog that you can't say to a girl: "How about a nice bone?"
I know several retiree age people that simply gave away their computers in frustration.
Most of them are not tech savvy and can barely understand what they are doing, email and browsing baffles them, forget anything beyond that.
One guy I know in his 70's has problems every time he turns his computer on. He's terrified to open email now and refuses to use it. So much the better I suppose, that probably saves him a lot of trouble. Win 98 and AOL dialup.
And to him, it's a magic box.
My dad had total hell with windows until I switched him to Linux. I put him on Mandrake at first but it was flakey. I then switched him to Suse and his computer problems are so trivial as to not be worth mentioning. It's now only things like "How do I do XYZ?" and I say "click this, open that....." No real problems anymore.
Windows also has an auto-updater - it is just as easy. Mac is only a short term answer - the parent is right when he says that Market Share will change all of the benefits of a Mac.
There is always a frontier where there is an open and willing mind
First of all, of course there will be viruses on the Mac eventually - but again may I point out it's not happened yet. Would you say to someone not to take a vacation in an area that might se unrest a year from now, or advise them to travel to Palestine to see the sites right now?
But when viruses or malware comes, the Mac has a number of benefits that still make the sitation better:
1) No default services, so malware has nothing really common to scan for to spread. It also means one Mac in the household being infected does not mean the rest of the house is automatically screwed.
2) All macs ship set to do weekly updates, so they'll actually get run - that means a serious outbreak of spyware can be removed and patched quickly by the update process. Windows update by contrast is not something everyone runs with regularity, and a number of people disable.
3) Admin password is required to truly harm the system, unlike Windows where many users run as administrator 9or there are holes enough that it doesn't matter).
4) The ability to run an SSH deamon easily (and one that is auto-pacthed weekly as needed!!!) means that extended family members that know what they are doing can connect and check on things remotely with ease.
5) Browsers and apps that take security more seriously and are more careful about what they do with attachments and wierd binary data.
Fundamentially Apple has seemed to pay more attention to security than Microsoft and that will pay off when viruses and spyware finally come. In the meantime you can enjoy a very advanced OS that has great features and is devoid of active security exploits.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
At least for my wife's parents. About a year ago, they called their ISP to cancel their service and bought cell phones instead. If they need to use the Internet, they walk to the library.
They're in their late 50's. They live in rural Ohio. The Internet was fun at first, a chance to e-mail their kids, to see what all the fuss was about. They were one of the first families on their block to have dial-up, at a robust $30 per month. The price has fallen, but not as much as their interest in being online.
Two years ago I helped my mother in law set up a new Yahoo account as her old mailbox was choked with spam, much of it highly offensive to her. Web browsing had become a peep show. Ultimately, from what I can piece together, a virus rendered them unable to dial up. Nowadays, she only uses that old 60 MHz Pentium to listen to CDs while she's folding laundry and to type up her son's football pool.
The telephone is a technology they understand. They love Caller ID. They love each having their own voicemail. They love having everyone's numbers in their phones. They love being able to carry them around. They recently pulled the plug on their land line.
Sure, I could have encouraged them to read my friend's book, to keep fighting. But from 1000 miles away, I like that when they call me now, it's just to chat.
I just wanted to stand up and scream, LIAR! at that point. The internet did just fine under that open archetecture. The problem was when closed archetecture like Windows was added to the internet. Spam increase is directly due to people getting their Windows computers "0Wn3d" - not a failure of open archetecture at all. Adware increase is directly due to people not having total control over their own computers - again NOT a failure of open archetecture at all.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
This gets right to the crux of the issue for most spam victims. When some idiot sends you a mass email with all the addresses hanging out in the To: field like so much underwear on a clothesline, immediately direct them to a site with information on why and how to use BCC (you can google more examples, or copy and paste your own boilerplate text version from one of the above-mentioned sites). I can trace the beginning of my spam problems to the exact date that some fool sent me a mass email without using BCC. When I finally have to give in and change my email address, I fully intend to give it out only to people who understand this basic concept of email etiquette and agree ahead of time, in no uncertain terms, never to send me a multiple-recipient email without protecting the recipients list. When giving out your email address to people who just don't get it and probably never will (since it is illegal in most jurisdictions to bludgeon such people with a lead pipe), use disposable email addresses from crapmail, yahoo, hotmail and the like.
Getting a mac is like security through obscurity in a way.
Owning a mac is to say "this platform is so underused, the virus writers dont really care about it". If macs were the popular platform...hello virus, adware, spyware, etc.
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
I make a decent amount of money on a side business of cleaning computers of spyware, adware, and viruses. So the less average Joe knows the better for me.
You could say that I love it when people use IE as their primary browser, hoorah for MS.
Suppose that spyware compromised a person's PC, which in turn opened the door for more trojans to invade, one of which turned complete control over to Snotty Richter, that pig-fac....er, sorry - got side tracked.
My point is, suppose spyware led to spam-relaying computers. You don't go to spyware-infested sites, but it still affects(or is it effects? My money is on 'affect') you. Same with drugs, etc.
I have read repeatedly here and elsewhere that most spam comes from "spam zombie" machines "pwned" via the machinations of malicious virus writers. Ergo, a machine spewing viruses via email is (a) a spam source in training and (b) attempting to create other zombies/spam sources. It therefore seems logical that any ISP serious about fighting spam would welcome reports of subscribers spewing viruses, whereby to notify the subscriber of the infection and/or suspend the account until the problem is fixed.
On the assumption that the latter point is true (which I doubt), why do SpamCop and other spam reporting outfits refuse to report/notify ISPs about viruses spewing from their mail servers?
If the number of owned machines is as represented, it seems that a huge step toward controlling spam would be identifying and fixing said machines or suspending their ISP accounts BEFORE they start spewing spam.
(Note to trolls: Please do not start up about "lusers" not knowing how to identify the true ISP of an infected account and all that. SpamCop, for one, does this automatically based on IP address, so, the mechanism for reporting viruses to the source ISP is the same as for reporting spam.)
Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
At some point, "blame the user" becomes tired. Yes, he should have had backups, and/or the originals stored somewhere secure. Better/different virus protection would also help. However, at some point, the blame has to fall on the people that point this together. Tying the OS to its applications and making them all have authority with one another is the low point. Done to control and manipulate customers, as well as make usage easier, it makes any security hole threatening. When DRM hits and the users gets locked out of his computer while the spammers and virus writers get access, the cries will only get louder. Yes, there are bad people out there, but giving them the keys to the front door and the location of my wallet without telling me probably isn't a good way to help users secure themselves.
I don't maintain my car myself. I'm lazy enough to get my oil changes done, and it's easy enough to keep basic tabs on my car that I can use it. If my car required 30 min. of maintenance a day to run, and running around to get parts and software upgrades, I probably would find a way to use it a lot less, and lots of people would give their cars up entirely. If computers are expected to be used by everyone, then it isn't reasonable to expect people to put more work into their computers than into their cars or pets. Computers are tools - people want them to just work, or to require a minimal amount of effort to work. Computers sold to the majority of people don't do this, and then everyone's suprised when users get frustrated. For most people, computers aren't fun in and of themselves, but for what they allow us to do. If you want to sell to the mass market, you need to make what they can use, rather than complain that they aren't competent enough to use what's there.
Maybe we'll get a useful net back some day.
I can't believe that these people gave up. Firewalls and antivirus will almost always do the trick. That should be the first thing anyone installs on their computer before ever hooking up to the net. Why do so many people seem ignorant of these simple things?
I see a lot of you are making valid suggestions.
From what I have read they are.
1)Don't Use IE (Use Firefox instead)
2)Don't use Windows (Use Linux instead)
3)Don't buy a PC (Use a MAC instead)
These are only short term solutions. Whats going to happen 3-5 years from now as linux and Mac OS become more popular. More and more people are going to figure out more exploits for theses OS's as well.
The long-term solution is to educate the users. I tell my users all the time "I don't care if you are the 654,234 visitor to that site; you are not going to get a free xbox".
I have created several pamphlets describing viruses and spyware and how to avoid them. I also include a small CD in the back that includes spyware tools and alternative browsers as well as other things.
I am a computer professional. I spend, on average, 10-12 hours a day in front of a monitor. Geek at heart and by nature. That being said, I very rarely use the 'net at home anymore. Here and there and for specific tasks, but not at all like my non-techno buddies assume. And it is pretty much all because of the noise. Spam, pop-ups, redirects, spyware...it is all a hassle. If I were not at work, I wouldn't even be reading /. The same exact part of my psyche that wants to modularize everything and views everything as logical process just can't handle all that crap.
Leave the 'net to the kiddies and the marketers, they have ruined it enough for me that I would enjoy watching the whole thing go down the drain and scare off the money-grubbers who have absolutely no interest beyond another ad venue.
Well... Let's not forget that Macs are built more secure from the grount up. You can't send me a Mac written virus and have it do anything without my supplying my password. Period. if you developed a web site that would download a virus, spyware, adware, or anything else, the same holds true. These apps all need permission to be installed. Period. Now, if someone were silly enough to manually type in their password because they were prompted to even when they were not installing software, then all bets are off. I think you Win guys misunderstand the real problem. Its not you, and its not me.. its everyone, regardless of platform, who is not as computer savay as we are. My parents.. its my sister, and the guys in the small office next door who don't understand a whit about how these bad things happen. These are the people who need protection from the dangers of the web. These people would be better off with a Mac, at least they'd have a fighting chance. :)
"Much spyware arrives bundled with programs such as screensavers and file-sharing software." my isp gives me windows software and I just pitch it - it doesn't support linux and I won't put it on my mac - I have never had a spyware problem. I use linux and mac and never had a problem - I used mozilla / firefox / thunberbird / and evolution and never had a problem. get rid of windows and using linux will solve your problems - also using firebird and stop using internet explorer will help immensely. windows has taught a log of people bad habits and now they are paying for it. its also all this trash software that people buy for 10 dollars at their local discount store too - quit installing that shit and install open source instead. this will solve all your problems.
Bill forcefully reminds me every 30 days to reformat and reinstall. 30-40 minutes to reload and reconfigure WinXP, 10 minutes to reload stuff like Mozilla and AcroReader.
Horseshit!
There was once a time when email was safe. There was a time when media files were safe. There was a time when documents were safe. There was a time when web pages were safe. There was a time that the only way to get a virus was to download and run an executable on your system. Those days are gone.
And what has happened to change all that? Microsoft happened. Microsoft tied IE into the OS , allowed IE to execute external programs and scripts and added ActiveX without bothering to protect the OS from any of those things. Microsoft allowed OutLook to launch external programs without your approval. Microsoft added DRM extensions that can be exploited to add spyware to your system.
The blame sits squarley and completely on Muicrosft abd no one else. Their carelessness and complete lack of security concerns are the reasons we have the flood of viruses and spyware out there.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Sad to say I'm lazy and cheap on my Windows PC and ran with no Spyware/Anti Virus/Firewall protection for a long time. Stupid Eh? Eventually I install AVG cuz it was free. NO viruses I also used Firefox/Thuderbird. Never got hit until I used IE for like 10 minutes. Then AVG popped up and said virus detected. Cleaned it out, don't use IE, forbade my wife to use IE. No problems. Then I was curious about spyware. I've never had a slow down problem but since its the latest rage and all I decided to check it out. Nothing Either I'm lucky, everyone is doing stupid things, or Firefox is the savior of the net.
Three men walk into a bar. They all got concussions.
e) Activate your winxp firewall.
Personally, first thing I de-activated, carefully, thoroughly. We have got enough proof that too "good" integration by a single producer is the shortest way to doom.
Zijus
....I've a 2 month old install of Windows 2000 (new motherboard warranted reinstall) and have had my router online constantly. All I have running is Tiny Personal Firewall as protection.... I've not had an infection or trojan yet. Am I in the minority? I use Mozilla for browsing, Yahoo! for mail and I forward all important mail to Mozilla Mail. I've not updated Anti-virus software since November and Ad-Aware is rarely used. I shop online with eBay and Amazon. Still nothing has intruded....
1) Compile a list of every human you've corresponded with in the past 6 months, or 1 year, or whatever.
2) Compile a list of mailing lists you subscribe to.
3) Get a new email address with a long prefix (i.e. not easily brute-force-guessable)
4) Let everyone on your list know your new email address.
5) Subscribe your new email address to your mailing lists.
6) Abandon your old email address. If you can, set it to autoreply with an obfuscated version of your new email address that a human could figure out.
7) NEVER enter your new email address online unless you MUST. Use a service like mailinator.com instead, to receive "registration confirmation" emails and whatnot.
I have done this successfully and get NO spam. As in, ZERO. Perhaps it helped that I switched to a gmail account, but it works.
...and we're better off for it.
The fewer people on the Internet who are too ignorant or apathetic to solve (fairly simple) problems like this, and the better off the Internet as a whole will be.
Think about how many viruses you've received in e-mail in the last year. Now, for those of you who are interested in such things, think about how many different IP addresses these viruses came from. In my case, the latter is much less than the former, and I got literally hundreds of viruses from a mere handful of IP addresses. If a couple of those people got so frustrated that they gave up on "that Internet thing," that's good news for the rest of us, because that's maybe 10-20% of my annual virus load gone right there.
Similarly, how much of your spam came from pwn3d Windoze boxen on American cable/DSL subnets? How much of your blog spam? If these users get frustrated and quit the Internet, great! It leaves two categories of people on the 'net: those who care enough to fix the problem, and those who aren't a problem anyway. The people who are a problem are giving up!
p
In Korea, long hair is for old people!
Just give up Windows? Then you could keep the Internet.
Seriously, for all the frustration these people have gone through, they could have installed Linux and put a permanent end to the problem.
Them: My Windows PC is broken - it's too slow and crashes all the time. I think I have a virus - how do I fix it?
.... (long list of ports)... but not 80, install antivirus software, install anti-spyware software. And then you'd have to do it all again in 6 months when you forgot to do your biweekly update and your machine gets infected again.
Me: Install Linux.
Them: Um, I don't know how to do that - it sounds complicated. Can't I just download a fix or something?
Me: Yes, you could. And then you would have to reinstall all of your applications, install the latest service pack, install a firewall - block ports 23, 454
Them: Um, I have to do all that?!
Me: If you're going to stick with Windows, yes. Or you could just install Linux and let other people worry about viruses and spyware, etc...
Linux. Because you like to use the internet.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
The days of put the tape in the VCR and press play are over. The simple "Point and Click" paradigm has to become "Think, Point and Click" in order for people to survive this new millenium. Fact is, if you read the article, most people really think computers are much like TVs. Just press power and adjust the volume. Unfortunately, our current state of technology and the way in which business affects it, prohibits any "real" safety measures to be implemented transparently to the user. In other words, Firewalls can't know everything we do on the computer. Someone is going to have to configure it properly. Same goes with navigating the Internet. People blindly download software and enter personal info.
...
Sure, owning a Macintosh will help considerably, for now, but what happens when the Macs installation numbers grow greater in the coming years? Same darn thing. Macs enjoy an ad free existence because of the sheer numbers. At this current time why should a company like 180solutions target a Mac? I've been using Windows for years and have hardly ever received any ads or viruses. Sure I'm a software developer and I may know a thing or two about the computer BUT that doesn't mean a non savvy person has to suffer. Here are a few tricks I've learned over the years
1. Actually read all message boxes that pop up on your screen and don't answer yes or click OK BLINDLY. Especially the ones that say "install patch now?" When it doubt click Cancel. You'd be surprised how many people click OK without READING!!!
2. Learn how to use the Task Manager.
3. Keep the computer offline as much as possible if you have a broadband connection. Either shut down or disable the network connection when not in use.
4. Keep a minimal amount of programs running as possible. If you don't use AIM, shut it down.
5. Defrag your drive every now and then.
6. Keep up with updates, BUT AVOID SP2 on XP.
7. AVOID USING OTHER MICROSOFT PRODUCTS A MUCH AS POSSIBLE!!
Replace Office, Outlook, Internet Explorer and Media Player with Open Office, Thunderbird, Mozilla and IrfanView or Winamp, etc.
Sure this is a tall order, but keeps many a monitor from getting thrown out a window.
8. If you have children and a computer you use for critical business applications, DON'T LET THE TWO INTERACT!!
Don't be cheap, get little Johnny his own computer!
Hope this helps.
One of the smartest things I've done for handling spam was to get my own domain name -- lets just call it google.com.
My mail server catches all incoming mail for my domain and directs it to my mailbox (my little secret!).
If I'm giving out my email to a friend, I will use:
friends_name@google.com
If I'm giving it out to a reputable company where I want to receive the bills, bullitens or emails, I use:
companyname@google.com
If I'm giving it out to a site which i dont trust, I put the words _spam_ in it.
company_spam_@google.com
This way, I can do more than set up filters based oon content.
All *_spam_@google.com goes into a specific mailbox (incase I need an activation code or content out of one of the messages)
All other mail goes into my box which I never give out.
I then create rules for killing mail so that if I posted
website@google.com
on my website, and its getting a lot of spam, I just point website@google.com to be deleted.
I also want to experiment with other people using subdomains, because obviously this solution requires quite a bit of work (server experience, static ip, dns, domain name, etc). When I have time (haha) I am going to give out subdomains to people who want the same thing:
anything@dad.google.com
==>for my dad for example. Then when he has a problem with spam to a specific address, I can kill that box for him or create a simple script for him to do it.
Just my 2c
--Sean
apple.com/macmini
I've modded down 5 "Buy a Mac" answers here and it's got me suspecting an APPLE CONSPIRACY (I know I'm blowing those mods by posting, I actually read the guidelines a long time ago)
Since when did Slashdot become so Pro-Apple? I understand the Anti-MS, which has been here since day 1, but since when did the answer to every problem become "Buy an Apple."
M@
Krispy Cream is people
This takes just a little bit of effort but is well worth it in man-hours you'll save not managing spam down the line.
+ 'yourdomain.c'+'om')</script>
1) Compile a list of every human you've corresponded with in the past 6 months, or 1 year, or whatever. This may not be 100% necessary if you can do the second part of step (6) below.
2) Compile a list of mailing lists you subscribe to.
3) Get a new email address with a long prefix (i.e. not easily brute-force-guessable)
4) Let everyone on your list know your new email address.
5) Subscribe your new email address to your mailing lists and unsubscribe your old.
6) Abandon your old email address. If you can, set it to autoreply with an obfuscated version of your new email address that a human could figure out.
7) NEVER enter your new email address online unless you MUST. Use a service like mailinator.com instead, to receive "registration confirmation" emails and whatnot.
8) If you must list your email address on a website as contact info, obfuscate it with javascript (see below*). This will prevent spambots from harvesting your email address from the html source of the page.
I have done this successfully and get NO spam. As in, ZERO. Perhaps it helped that I switched to a gmail account, but damn, it works.
*javascript email obfuscation: replace "yourname@yourdomain.com" in HTML with:
<script language='javascript'> document.write('yourname'+String.fromCharCode(64)
Voila!
But not becuase I am 1337 and "they" are LUSERS with PEBCAK problems.
Am I 1337 for independently deriving what PEBCAK stands for?
Freedom: "I won't!"
Honestly, these people giving up are likely our parents, grandparents and all those technically obtuse people who make your life hell with having to clean out their spyware and assorted viruses because their too stupid to listen for the umpteenth millionth time that there is no such thing as free pron in your email. Anyone with half a brain and a bit of initiative can change their email address, clean their computer up and start being a bit smarter about things. No sympathy.
what would happen if Linux became as popular as Windows? Where spyware writers start targeting Linux users? As much as I use (and love) Linux, I can't help but wonder if too much popularity is a bad thing. I know this may sound elitist, but I'm sort of glad that Linux is a niche product; it helps keep the scum (spyware and virus writers) focused on tormenting Windows users. (Not that I'm happy to say that, since I have to provide support for Windows computers, too.) At least for now, I can safely say that I little to worry about concerning my Linux boxes.
It's all fun and games until someone loses the key to the handcuffs.
Who just keeps buying new computers everytime this happens to him.
Since I don't know him directly, I guess that doesn't quite count.
I am surprised at how many windows users browse the web (among other things) while logged in with administrator priviliges. If you want to use IE for browsing, better run it with limited priviliges. I can understand why some people may choose IE over netscape/mozilla -- I use a 400 Mhz machine to surf the net and IE loads and runs way faster than firefox. I even had firefox crash on me many times (enormous swapping, 99% CPU use sometimes for unknown reasons). But I don't end up with as much spyware as other users because I never use the administrator account for doing daily stuff. Also, using firefox over IE will not make things better for you if you already have adware/spyware that downloads and installs other programs from the net. The first advise I always give to spyware-striken users is "Get off the Administrator" (ok, pun intented)...
How about getting a Mac instead of a Wintendo for a PC? You'll avoid the spyware and viruses, but the spam you'll just have to live with. In any case, Gmail filters spam pretty well, so I don't see it much. :P
si vis pacem, para bellum..."if you wish peace, prepare for war"
You wouldn't be able to drive any longer. As an non professional, you could cause injury to others.
I totally agree with this statement. Many people get their licenses without actually qualifying as drivers.
You couldn't listen to music. As a non professional you have no true understanding of what's good and what's not.
WTF? Listening to music has no effect on other people's lives. Driving cars and infesting the Internet with zombie computers has.
The fact is, the omnipresence of Windows (also thanks to a clever let-the-pirate-copies-spread policy) has transformed many people into computer users without hardly a clue of what to do.
The Internet is not a problem. Windows is.
Cite your sources, asshole. I DARE you.
but anyone with a computer can get on the internet.
Kidding aside, why does the general population expect computing to be "easy"? Society (in general) expects professionally trained people to operate aircraft, perform surgery, put out fires, construct, plumb and wire homes, use a firearm, and to operate a motor vehicle.
Why don't people think it takes some training to safely and securely operate a computer system and network?
We (the computer industry) are to blame. We've spent the last 25 years shouting at the top of our lungs, with every new product release: "this computer is EASY to use - anyone with half a brain can do it!".
Microsoft and Apple are both guilty of this.
The time has come for the computer industry to shift its focus from "easy to use systems" to educating its customers about safety and security.
I can't tell you how many small business owners i've seen that have their entire livelyhoods resting on computer systems that aren't backed up regularly, have inadequate virus/spyware protection, lack high-security firewalls and VPNs for remote access. They think they can "admin" their own systems, and often times are burned in the process.
Sure, you can raise your fist and yell at Microsoft, Apple, Dell, and whomever else you want to blame; but ultimately the safe operation of your systems is YOUR responsibility. If you can't do that then hire a professional who can. God knows there are enough of them looking for work.
-ted
All they have to do is to give up the IE and Outlook, or even better abandon Windows at all.
I fixed the security problem with IE.
I run it under CrossoverOffice on Linux sudo'ed to an account with no privs.
Works just dandy for those retard sites that can't code proper HTML.
My comment was made half in jest. I firmly believe that OS X's UNIX underpinnings are inherently more secure than Windows.
// This is not a sig.
One word, MepisPro
You're right. It *is* idiotic to assume people can be civil and not try to ruin your computer with viruses, hide all of your valid email in deluges of spam, attempt to trick you into giving them private information or credit card numbers, and generally try to screw you in every way possible.
There used to be a time when you could plug in a computer and have a reasonable net experience, email included. Now a friend of mine, even with the help of a Bayesian filter, gets over 100 spam messages (down from 1500) a day. What's idiotic is that everyone has to watch their computer like it's filled with nitroglycerin, just because a few people are bound and determined to ruin the net experience for everyone.
Our company had to buy two more mail servers just to handle the spam processing and filtering load. This is costing millions of people real time, real money, and real headaches. It doesn't surprise me at all that some people are just abandoning the net as not worth the trouble.
Imagine you're a doctor, and you spend all of your time operating on people and reading medical journals. Do you think that person is going to spend hours each weekend just to make sure his computer hasn't become infested with viruses, somehow stolen his money, or wasn't being used as a bot? Software, even open source, is fallible. All it takes is one unpatched hole being open for one minute longer than the exploit is discovered, and you could be screwed.
And before you start rolling out stories about how only stupid (l)users are getting pwn3d, tell that to the Apache group, OSTG, and other major open source vendors that all got pwn3d in their CVS trees about a year ago. These were highly experienced system administrators, and the were hacked - *for months* before anyone noticed. How can you expect some poor guy who uses the net to mail his grandkids to keep up?
Maybe the examples picked for the article were hokey, but that doesn't make the problem any less real. If not for the magic of bayesian filters backed up by a strong Qmail SpamAssassin filter, I'd have given up email a long time ago, and I'm a UNIX developer! Without installing a half dozen third-party programs, computers are more of a liability than anything these days. It really is a crying shame.
Read: Rabbit Rue - Free serial nove
What are these pop-ups you speak of? People still get them today?! I thought they went extinct around 3 years ago. Hmmm, that would be around when I ran into this piece of software call Mozilla, now that think about it...
Divide by zero hurts my brain.
Now if it had been Linus who found spyware on his box, that would be interresting
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
There are dirtbags out there even as we speak trying to figure out to use Firefox and Thunderbird just as they use IE and Outlook. Mind you, Firefox and Thunderbird are very probably much more secure in nature than IE and Outlook, just because of how they're built. But I promise you there is someone out there trying to figure out how to compromise it.
-- The reason it's called the right wing? Irony.
They tried, but the learning curve for dealing with spam and spyware was too much for them. They're considering Apple's new mac, but are still nursing old wounds and so are slow to do it.
.
-shpoffo
I was with you right up until To strive for less would be unworthy of a free and religious people. As an atheist and a free-thinker, such language offends me. If the church and the state really are separate, let the m0therfuckers pay taxes just like everyone else.
Anyway... anyone who really thinks that the current situation would be any different with the desktop market dominated by OS X or (insert your favorite flavor of) Linux is ignorant and naïve. If I were running an adware company, or if I was trying to cause havoc, and were limited by that great factor called TIME, I'd devote my resources to something that would work on 85% of the market, regardless of the platform.
.Mac service comes with a free virus scanner, for the distant future when there actually are any.
You think you're tired of people telling others to get a Mac? How about how tired all of us that actually know what the hell we are talking about computer arctitecture wise are of hearing the argument that Windows-level viruses and spyware are "just around the corner" on Linux and the Mac if they ever get popular.
First of all, there are around 14 million mac desktops now. Do you not think that is significant enough to draw some malware? Yet as to date there is NONE. Not a small number, not a tiny percentage of the Windows share - but none!
But on to the technically inaccurate part of your post. Consider all of the various vectors that virii and malware usually come through - WIndows services, IE holes, and user-executed trojans.
Well trojans of course you are not really going to be able to stop, as when the user wants to see the vute little fishies swimming around in a virtual aquarium the game is over and they are going to run that no matter how the virus scanner protests. Yet the damage the little fishies can do can be limited - but on a Windows box it's not going to be because most users are admins. On OS X or Linux, malware is just not going to be able to root itself as firmly in the system as Windows viruses are able to do today because they will not be able to infect system files or processes.
Now for IE. Goold old IE... present EVERYWHERE on the system. Can't really borwse files or media or do anything without realy using IE.
With other systems the browser is not as cooked into the main OS, so when there are vulnerabilies they cannot get as far or do as much. Furthermore other browsers like Safari or Firefox are updated much more frequently and have a better history of patching than does IE.
Now the last point, services. OS X - can't really use 'em as a vector, aren't up by default. Any given service is going to only be run by a fraction of the user population. Pretty much the same with Linux, though most distros ship with some services running by default.
In short OS X and Linux do a much better job of compartmentalizing any possible damage from an attack, presenting an environment where viruses have to live in a much shallower environment for harm. They could do less, and also would not be as deeply rooted and thus much easier to remove. A virus on an OS X box is not going to be able to embed itself in some part of the OS. That means really examining a user that may be infected is as easy as creating a second user to poke around files the first user owns, without actually activating any virues that user might have and give them a chance of evasion.
And, even though things are pretty safe right now Apple is not sitting around assuming they will be safe forever - the
The really funny thing to me is that I seem to remember that twenty years ago or so Macs were the most virus prone computers around! Boot sector viruses and all sorts of other things, much worse than on PC's.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I will lose my side business. That extra money i get fixing PCs infected with spyware and viruses is what i use to fund my Mac purchases.
I'm on dial-up - I run AVG update almost every day. To do otherwise is silly. Also bad to use expensive bloatware from Norton and the like when AVG (etc) is free, small and great. (I use Kerio for firewalling.)
*Do not download email to your computer, use Yahoo mail.
Nope. With an ounce of knowledge and the right program (moz or Tbird) it's more than fine to download email. Webmail is weak and should be used only when you're not on your primary machines.
Stop feeding proprietary corporate crap down others' mouths. Use open source solutions, yo.
They don't want me to set up their PCs to access the net from the browser only
The thing is, if you are helping them I say you dictate the terms! You can explain to them why you are doing what you are doing, and say that if they don't like it they'll have to have someone else help them. That goes a long way to squelching objection.
This is exactly the case where Tough Love is important, and you have to leverage your ability to help them against any emotional power they may have over you.
Obviously they still need to be able to use the computer for the things they do - but for a lot of people that is email, word processing, and browsing. If you can give trhem something that is funcationally the same and say that you will help them if they just let you do what you know is best for them, then they can't really complain.
Realistically it's best to use a phased approach where you make them use Firefox first and slowly move on to other things. But you have to start somewhere and can't let them have thing stay the same forever. PC's wear out and something is going to change sometime, let them get used to change and make changes they do experience for the better.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
c) Get off the internet
"Hello? I tried to get off the internet and now my computer wont start! I unplugged all of the cables in the back to be sure I was off. Where do they all go?"
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
How exactly will a Mac keep spam away from you?
.Mac service gives you an email address that I believe they further refine the spam from. I only use it lightly, but even so I have yet to see a single spam come at me from my .Mac email address.
For one thing, the default mail application does an excellent job with spam filtering - it was I think the first mainstream app to inclue bayesian filters (yes, even before Mozilla's mail client).
I used to use Mozilla for mail for a while but the OS X mail app really works pretty well, and controls spam well..
for those that want more protection the
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
What ever happened just to reinstalling Windows? It's completely ignorant to disconnect your Internet connection just because you didn't know how to protect your system at some point.
I don't moderate anymore. Karma penalty for 90% fair mods? Can I mod that unfair?
What exactly does Safari do? It might be a KHTML bug and I'd like to submit a bug report.
This post written under Gentoo-linux with an SCO IP license.
Normally I would say never to try the unsubscribe - but I would use it in this case, and email customer service that you live in Colorado or California (where you can counter-sue for a good bit of money) if they still do not stop.
It sounds like they are most recognizable and fixed than other fly-by-night spammers so you have a better chance of it working since you could probably track down someone to sue.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I bought something at an APple store a few months ago, and the return policy was 15 days. Pretty short but it should be enough for an evaluation.
They may also charge a restocking fee, not sure - but with the base price of $499 it's not much of a risk. People have phones that cost more!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Just email your self the backsup to gmail.
safe and global access, zero cost.
I wouldnt rely on it as the only backup, but a good one though.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
There are tonnes of bad sites with bad scripts that try to install stuff.
The ISPS should look for these things and keep a global database on them all so they can all be firewalls/filtered out. And their domains turned off. And civil action taken for 'hacking', why not put all these spammers in jail like Mitnik was, after all he did bugger all damage, and now the FBI just ignores most of the spammers/spyware dudes.
ALL ISPS can do more.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Dell has the option of shipping Firefox on their system. And then when they return the Dell and go buy a Gateway because Gateway can browse the Internet with less problems, they will realize that their Dell is more stable and runs better. If I wete an OEM, I'd offer a "what do you want to do?" screen. (This idea came from HP). But instead of booting into a custom version of Windows if Internet was selected, I would boot into a small version of Linux running Mozilla that was not modifiable. I'd market it as "Spyware-free Internet" gaurenteed. You could even use the "Internet Explorer skin". We need to start demanding OEMs, banks, and other players in this industry to take security out of Microsoft's hands entirely, and into the consumer consciousness. --Sam
...a great opportunity for a web poll. It could go something like this:
Do you use the Internet?
- yes
- no
I read that as saying that every kitchen stove operator has the responsibility to learn about how the stove works, what dangers are lurking, and what needs to be done to avoid those dangers. WRONG! That responsibility exists, but shouldn't necessarily be the user's responsibility. Just to use any stove, you don't have to know how it works. Not all users are also engineers, you know. By using flame-enabled item like stoves, a user essentially trusts stove makers to manage the interface between the flame and the user. And stove makers trust the gas delivery system below it, to manage the interface between gas tanks and the plumbing hardware. That trust includes an assumption of safety/reliability/integrity. The current state of stove security tells me, that trust is often misplaced. It's an endless battle of opinions, but IMO the #1 reason for having fire detectors etc. is not functionality, but the fact that gas delivery systems, stove dials, pans and so on, are BROKEN (unreliable, buggy, insecure). If they wouldn't be, there would be few reasons to put a fire alarm between a househould stove and the gas plumbing. Similar goes for radon detectors, 911, etc. It may be a full time job to keep ordinary stoves's secured & 100% functional, but don't assume that should be the user's job. I guess new developments like remotely managed, limited functionality stoves's could provide some relief here for many users, who are incapable of managing fire.
I forget what 8 was for.
"... No one is immune. Microsoft Corp. Chairman Bill Gates discovered spyware on his personal machine not long ago. ..."
No one immune?
Pardon me, but WRONG! I'm on a Mac. I am damn well immune, thank you. I have no problems on my Safari og Firefox or Camino. I AM immune from spyware and malware.
Why does the entire world have to use just one system? If 20% of users had MacOSX, 45% used Windows, and 30% used Linux (the rest made up of everything else) then a virus could not spread as fast and wide as it does now. Virus writers would have to either choose an OS or go through the great difficulty of finding the one hole that works on every system. The problem is monoculture--not just Windows, although Windows is like the wheel-chair bound asthematic kid from Malcolm in the Middle, and that's the majority--and its the Irish Potato famine each and every time, to mix my metaphors a little. Not everyone has to use the Same System!
Anyone who whines about being modded down should be.
I'm about to that point myself.
2000+ emails a day to my domain. 99.9% are spam.
Its costing me time and money.
Along with all the popup ads, flashing banners..
The constant threat of accidentally being labeled a pirate, and being investigated. ( remember we now have an 'assumed guilt' policy on the 'net )
I'm almost done with it all.
( spyware isnt a problem personally, i dont use windows )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I would not mind getting a Mac, but I have a very hard time convincing myslef I should spend the extra money on one. Even the Mini is $100 more than what I can build a comperable X86 at. You also have another very key statement, "some great games." As long as I have to wait sometimes over a year for the port of a game I want to play or face never being able to play it at all I will never bea able to justify the extra expenditure. I use my computer at home almost exclusively for gaming and until other developers start behaving more like Blizzard I'm going to be running on Windows. I won't be using Outlook or IE but I'll be using Windows.
Harm the system? For a typical single user computer, who cares?
.Mac with automated backups much more with Tiger using the .Mac synching feature - lets you synch a laptop and a desktop and Backup can automate backups to .Mac of key data pretty easily. I actually like Backup pretty well myself and use it to back up important things as needed. It's also nice because stuff backed up using it to CD or wherever is just held as normal files so you can get it off (though possibly some stuff may be slit acrss CD's, don't know if it does that or not).
Two reasons - first of all, the shallower malware can install itself the easier it is to remove and not have to reinstall.
But also, a full OS reinstall for Windows can easily trash many app prefernces which are mostly kept in the registry. You can't just easily keep the registry because the malware may have done something to it.
With OS X can you easily reinstall the system without loosing app prefs because they are stored seperatley, per user. I disagree that users care only about data, they like to keep prefs as well as many people value the time spent setting up an app. Its the lack of consistancy that is so annoying about other systems...
Also I would say Apple is pushing
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Cute little fake form letter you cooked up there, d00d. Now say what you have to say in plain English and I might bother to wade through it. As it is, I'd rather wade through raw sewage.
That's not entirely true.
;)
OS X (out of the box) is generally secure by default. You cannot run an executable directly with safari. You have to download it somewhere and you have to double click on it. If it runs an installer and does anything major, it will require an admin password. If it is just an executable and it's the first time you have run that program you will get a prompt that says "Hey. This program is running for the first time on this computer. Do you really want to run it?"
Although I'm sure someone can be goaded into going through all those hoops to finally install something the program itself will not have access to critcal parts of the system unless somehow it gets the password and super user itself and breaks into root. Did I mention by default Admin is not really an admin and you often haft to SU yourself from command lin in darwin to do critical things (or think you shouldn't really be doing).
Secondly, there is not registry or dll hell... Uninstalling programs only usually require me dragging the icon into the trash and thats it.
Did I mention the already integrated firewall?
Will someone make mac spyware? Sure as day... But will it be as bad as Windows even if the Mac someday got a greater market share?
Not even close.
And if they do... I'll keep using Firefox for OS X
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
License the net
Just like a car; before you can use the net; you have to pass a test. Nothing too hard, just the basics of security. And, just like a car, you get in an accident that is your fault (open a exe that you know you shouldn't have/drive on the sidewalk (both equally stupid)) you loose your license. Depending on the offecnce you will loose your license for x years. Simple!
K Man
The vast majority of people I've spoken to haven't actually given up on the internet. They've actually gone out and purchased cheap machines, the real low-end bargain bucket kind for 200 at Fry's, that they just use to surf the internet and keep ``completely separate'' from the other computers. Yes, in most cases it's on the same LAN, but I haven't had the heart to tell them that most worms will still infect them over that. Or more like, they wouldn't care or understand anyway.
But the market for cheap computers for just web surfing and email is growing, I'd imagine. The ISP-hosted desktop is perfect for a situation like that.
New York Times Weekly computer expert said the same thing (Macs are immune from viruses) in an in-depth expose not long after Panther was released citing the 4 windows holes that will remain a problem for M/$ til Longhorn emerges years from now. The title was something like "It's not about the numbers". The fact is NO virus can infect a MAC with out a user being informed, asked if he/she wants to install this new program, and if so to enter the System Password. This is the way OSX is shipped by default so as you can see Macs cannot install a virus even on Joe Sixpack's Mac unless he knowingfully enters the system password. This is the way things should be on Windows also, but alas til Longhorn arrives in several years, nusiance patches and service packs are the name of the game for Windows users to patch holes in a dike that cannot be totally patched until Windows is redone from the ground up.
What's past is NOT ALWAYS prologue for the future!
I am surprised at how many windows users browse the web (among other things) while logged in with administrator privileges.
... except that heaps of software for windows expects to be run as administrator. The amount of problems she's run into simply through running as a non-privileged user is astonishing, and it often seems as though MS is the worst offender of them all.
I'm not. I recently supervised the purchase of a new laptop for my mother, and since it was a fresh machine I set up a separate administrator account, told her never to use it except when installing software and/or windows updates. I installed firefox and t'bird, explained about spyware and that unless software is open-source there's no such thing as a free lunch. And she took it all in and that was fine
The moral is: if you want to run without root privileges on Windows, you're going to have to put up with a heap of annoying crap. And that's assuming that the user is informed enough to even realise that there's such a thing as "administrator" and that they're set up by default to run as that - there's nothing under the WinXP setup that I saw that alerts users to the need to run as a non-privileged user.
Maybe in 2020 internet will be so advanced we won't need Spyware, then again.. I'd be contridicting myself since Spyware would too become more advanced. I give up on this subject.
Incompetent users with infected machines are more than just an annoyance. Their computers are often zombied and used to compromise other computers/servers out there.
I think ISPs should also adopt a tough love strategy, whereby if a computer on their network is found to be infected or causing trouble to other hosts, the computer's internet access will be COMPLETELY BLOCKED until the user can demonstrate the following:
1) They've cleaned up their computer, and what steps they took to do that
2) They've installed antivirus and firewall software, and have updated to the latest versions
3) They've applied the newest patches to their OS, browser, email app, etc.
ISPs should also put a limit on the amount of times a customer's computer can be found to be compromised. Any more than that and they're kicked off the network.
But... of course most ISPs won't do this, because the almight dollar is at stake. As long as they're making money, and as long as the damage being caused is to computers outside their own networks, they really don't have an incentive to give a damn.
eTrade SUCKS
THIS IS A SHAMELESS PLUG, SEND THE ORDERS TO :---
I use (have developed) a Debian offshoot, which installs next to a windoze partition in 6 minutes. 1 Gb of web applications, music, video, most plugins, dialer, winmodem support, network, adsl, firewall, spam & virus filter. It's not for Joe Bloggs to install, its for a tech to do a professional job saving just these type of people from their life of windoze torture. It works, it's simple to use, customers love it mainly because they don't have to worry any more.
Build your own and install into as many windows machines as you can.
Cheers,
Go well
"I gave her some simple guidelines: don't view attachments unless you know what they are"
.pif, I bet that stands for "Pretty Important File", I'd better open it to see what it is..."
That isn't a simple guideline, that's a career. "Oh, a
"My solution is pretty simple - if I'm going to download porn off the web I use a Mac."
So THAT's why Apple use white cases for their low end products...
Could this post be made a permanent fixture on the front page? It deserves immortalization in a place where those who can't see past this month's copy of Nerdular Nerdence might actually read it...
At home the pc is only for my wife to send email. I don'twant ot spend hours a week updating - It's bullshit. I'm not technical and I can't stand constant updating for crappy emails. ATTENTION VENTURE CAPITALIST WEB SPIDERS KEYWORD PATENT: I would be willing to pay a premium (seriously) to simply have my PC just dial up a Citrix box and never have to update anything. All maintenance would be performed upon the Citrix (vendor's) PC. With no hassle of maintenance on my part - no ISP upgrades, no OS upgrades, no virus definition upgrades, blah, blah, blah. PLEASE someone 1. INVENT this damn business model and 2. sell it me and 3. repeat 4. get rich
Yes, but up until SP2 for XP came out, no one knew it was there. Every person I dealt with (and I deal with tons for my job) had no clue that there were these things out there from Microsoft called updates that you could run on your computer to keep it secure.
By contract, on a Mac, the very first time you connect to the Internet, the Software Update application runs and then BOUNCES UP AND DOWN at the bottom of their screen until they pay attention to it and click on it. At which point, it explains that there are updates from Apple that should be installed.
Now you tell me which one you think works better. I already know through hard experience (i.e. removing countless viruses for people).
Your Windows PC is my other computer.
Adams International has offices in Roiet, Banphai, and Bangkok (Thailand). The Roiet office has completely converted. All computers either Linux or dual-boot Linux+Windows. Nobody connects to the Internet using Windows. All e-mail from Linux; mozilla or evolution or thunderbird. All web from Linux; mozilla or firefox. No Windows Internet access at all any more. No viruses, no spam relays, no spyware, no anti-virus software, no anti-virus updates, no Ad-aware, no patches. Spam, yes. Banphai office coming up, then Bangkok.
1) Install Linux and make it extra secure against attack. The usual win32 malware will not run on Linux so this would solve 1 major problem. 2) Run your own mail server (postfix?) with Spamassassin for Spam filtering. When you start getting a lot of Spam you can take your mail server down for 2 or 3 days so your address bounces and is removed from Spam lists. 3) Enjoy your new Spam/Malware/Virus free internet experience! :)
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Just in case you missed it from the Mac mini specs page:This means that if you want to upgrade the RAM in a Mac mini and keep your warranty, you'll be paying someone. Same goes for AirPort, Bluetooth, hard disks, optical drives, and anything else you may want to shoehorn into one.
'DIY' is the name Apple has given to parts customers can install themselves. (It used to be 'CIP', or 'Customer Installable Parts', but this has changed). It's Apple's policy that, if you modify any non-DIY component, you have voided your warranty. From that page you've linked to, the manager seemed to have stated Apple's policy on DIY parts. In the case of the Mac mini, it was wrong.
On systems that memory is a DIY part (every other Mac except the mini), it would be correct -- you can install memory yourself, but if you break the computer it's not covered under warranty. This isn't the case with the Mac mini -- the moment you pop the top, you've voided your warranty.
I'm not saying this is a good thing. However this is the truth of the matter, and anyone stating otherwise is wrong.
(And yes, a lot of geeks don't care about warranty, and will install RAM themselves anyway. Good for them!)
If a Mac is safer through obscurity (and through its superior Firewall/User Account state) . . .
. . then HOW MUCH more secure is my PowerPC running Opera & Mozilla under Debian or,
AWeb under AmigaOS4.0?
No 'Spawn-of-Gates' systems here!!
.
(David Bowman, EVA near HUGE Monolithic Win-PC in orbit around Jupiter) "My God - its full of Malware!"
Unless you can give us a link and let us read that comparison, I gotta call bullshit. Let us read the study or whatever it is for ourselves and decide if it's just "get the facts" propaganda or not.
While someone is going to point out Apache vs. IIs, I actually think that you've got a point, that with the smaller share of Macs out there, there will be fewer people writing malware for the platform, just as there are fewer developers. However, if you consider that Mac OS X has been around for over 5 years now, and there is still not a virus out in the wild, that's pretty impressive.
Knowing what we know about script kiddie culture, wouldn't compromising a OS X box be a braggable feat? Let me submit to you the other reason that Macs have been safe: It's too hard. So even if the day ever came that Macs were more numerous than Windows PCs, they'd still be harder to compromise. Not impossible, but harder.
Lastly, I'd like to suggest that Apple is a lot more on the ball than MS when it comes to responding to vulnerability reports. They turn around those security patches pretty quick, while we hear stories of MS leaving a bad hole open for 3 months or longer.
You might have your reasons for using windows. That's fine. But don't pretend that one of the reasons is that it offers better security than linux or Mac OS X. You're not that big of a jackass. =)
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
While spyware/malware/adware doesn't NEED exploits to spread, it's the #1 way it does. Anyone using IE for long enough *will* have spyware installed on their machines eventually.
People use every trick in the book to find new flaws in IE and exploit them for spyware whenever they can. Sit in front of anyone's computer that isn't computer savvy and they WILL have spyware all over it. Even if they don't have Kazaa installed.
It would happen to me, too. I've been using computers since I was in the 2nd grade, I have a career in computer technology, and I still got infested with spyware on a regular basis. As soon as I switched to Mozilla, it stopped. Period.
Microsoft has added so much crap to IE that's out of web standards so their own software can work better. Outlook web access 2003 uses all sorts of IE only extensions, as well as a bunch of other software of theirs. They've made everything work so that everything can happen automatically but all it's done is open it to hundreds of vulnerabilities.
I believe MacOSX *is* better software. And I believe Firefox and Mozilla are better browsers. I think they are inherently more secure because of the development model and the adherence to standards.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
To be even more fair, running Windows as non-administrator also stops almost all spyware in it's tracks, and if it does install, it's trivial to remove a user-level spyware.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
Call it all you like. My statements were made based on a study reported right here on Slashdot several months ago. It was one of those Linux vs. Windows vs. MacOS headlines. After ten minutes sifting through old headlines I gave up and posted the comment without the link. You try searching for Linux on Slashdot.
Personally I use Linux and Windows (for games) at home, and Windows in the office (no choice). I'm even hopeful that the Mac becomes a bigger success than it is. The facts are, however, that while MacOS itself is far more secure than Windows, the study found out that with the out-of-box configuration, the Mac could be compromised in 2 minutes whereas the Windows box took 5 minutes (the Linux box took longer). I'm going from memory, but these compromises were from someone who knew where the boxes were on the network. When the experiment was tried on the open internet the Windows machine was compromised within a few minutes, while the Mac wasn't compromised at all (nor was the Linux box).
So Windows has two strikes going for it. It is the hardest to secure (if it is possible at all) and it is the most frequently targeted.
I don't doubt that Apple is reponsive, nor do I doubt that MacOS has good security (it's BSD Unix under the covers, after all). But I believe the reason there hasn't been a virus for Mac OSX in the wild is because virus writers are giving it a good solid ignoring.