Right before the Loma Prieta (sp) in the SF Bay area, a bunch of horses in a Pescadero ranch south of Half Moon Bay, splayed their legs and straightened them, bracing for something that the ranchhand could not see. Several seconds later, like a wave, a 5 foot tall ripple of earth raced across the field.
The horses knew it was coming.
The owner of the farm recounted this story to me several years ago.
The only question I'd like to pose is that allegedly, and according to the article, many of the changes would happen before the actual event. Your point that people observe and then tune in would fall short in explaining this.
It does does raise the common similarity between all "major world happenings recorded", that people all tuned in to watch them and they did so on their TV's.
The first time I user IRC on the VAX/VMS in 1989, I ended up talking to a young man in Berlin who told me the Berlin Wall was going to come down three days before CNN knew about it.
Every spare minute I had between class, I spent asking what he thought would happen, heard he was scared because the doubts of what would happen next and felt REAL glad I stumbled on IRC while most everyone else was using it to try and scam a date.
Knowing that something like this tool was able to bring people together across the world for such a world changing event just made me feel unbelievably privileged.
And I beat CNN with the news. Thanksgiving just meant more that year.
So true. What IS it that makes people grow those brooms on their faces?
My first impression was "social outcast".
What is it? Does the beard feel really good or does it have extra pockets? Does it scare away weak willed women so that only the determined get through?
Willies, I say. It gives me the willies and maybe even some heebie jeebies.
It's like wearing Cousin It below your nose.
Sure hope he has a cron job to remind him to bathe on a regular basis.
Good point. I am not saying that it is the only method yet it is the only quantifiable method that is guaranteed to return the most accurate answers. If you can study a quantifiable result, then you may have something. If you do not have a quantifiable result, then you have no basis upon getting a reliable answer.
Scientific observation is the observation of quantifiable results. My the basis for my argument is based upon that methodology. It is not faith as you mention but direct observation of known results. All knowledge is not based upon that as you do mention (thanks for pointing that out) but if you wish to prove or disprove a theorem or even propose or postulate one, it is done based upon observaton of concrete results. Einstein did not feel that e = MC^2. He proved it with knowns. And that is my point. Right now, many people have feelings that make them think there is a god. But I have yet to see evidence that leads towards concretes on that matter.
If I do, than well, I'll have to change the title of this thread.
Just trying to further explain the basis to my approach.
I was referring to the possibly strange thought that to assume that a god who has so much in his domain actually has the time to care about you as rather selfish and presumptious. It is a vastly different message than what we were taught in Sunday School but I put it out there.
Now, besides a feeling that he does, how do you know?
If theists and deists conceive of a god as a spirit, that brings up many problems. You assume that a spirit is not complex and they do not have parts. How do you know? What is the classification for a spirit? Who discovered, studied and documented the composition of a spirit and its traits and parts? Is this something other than a theist's conjecture to try and explain that which he does not know? You speak about a spirit as if it is a fact, a known classified and quantifiable thing. I have seen no scientific classification of a spirit. If you know of such a description, please feel free to share. If a god IS a spirit as you mention, until the properties of a spirit are known, it is useless to discuss since we are refuting and discussing properties based upon assumptions of an unknown.
Regarding your pointing out my "6 billion of us" as being simplistic. I am not referring to size but to amount and difficulty thereof. The complexity and difficulty of dealing with monitoring or paying attention to and granting favors for 6 billion of anything is astounding, let alone all the other factors in the surrounding world that may affect. In addition to the astounding difficulty of paying attention to 6 billion of us, aren't there infinitely more items in this universe alone that would need monitoring and would be be pretty damn important?
It makes me feel that the thought that a god actually has the time, inclination and capability to pay attention to our 6 billion+ needs in addition to running the rest of the universe not only simplistic but selfish and small minded. No offense intended.
We pray as if God is listening. If he doesn't exist, doesn't care or is napping, there are an awful lot of people on this planet who are simply wasting their time. And that's just sad.
A complex design does not require an intelligent design.
As of yet, I have not distilled everything I base my viewpoint on down in writing yet this thread has been a helpful exercise in that process.
If you do not believe in evolution (I don't know if evolution is part of your vision of intelligent design) there nave been many papers released over the past few years showing evolution in action, occurring over several generations of organisms in the wild and in the lab. NewScientist and eurekalert.org have these. Without going too much in depth, and starting with molecules, when certain molecular complex structures are formed, some of them - prions are one - support their own existence and lead towards self preservation and to duplication. At certain stages of complexity and message transfer, these items have a tendency to promote their own existence. I propose that it is inevitable that structures like this will come into existence as well as those that will not have this trait. Once an item has this trait and can respond to stresses and vary the structural outcome of its makeup, we have the basis the evolution. At certain points, through mutation and chance meetings (that are inevitable over a long period of time) more complexity is built into the system and new phemonina become present. It has been proven the the eye has developed through evolution independently in many different organisms, many times through evolutionary history. 4 billion years is an extraordinarily long time for creatures and structures to develop and for complexity to emerge. So long in fact that we can not comprehend it. My research indicates that creatures of our level of complexity would be expected at some point in those billions of years without the guiding hand of a superbeing to put us here.
Hope that helps to illustrate what I'm getting at.
1) Correct. To rebut your point, how would you propose a god could not be an extraordinarily complex item if not organism?
2) This is addressed in a later post in this thread. Please check if you are interested.
3) Yep. With so many things to run in a universe, why do we think we so important as to justify that a creature powerful enough to create the universe would actually spend its time on any one of the 6+ billion of us? Seems pretty selfish and self important of us if we think we deserve its time and that it has the time and energy to answer our pithy needs.
So you mentioned my problematic assumptions are "hopeless flawed" yet upon closer investigation, it appears that there are more to these points than initially meet the eye.
We know he's in Vegas but where? Anyone interested in collecting donations so we could put a hit on him or at least break his arms so he can't press keys? Maybe a kneecap or two. Is there any Yakuza in the house?
I mean the only way people would notice he is gone is that their email boxes would be more likely to full of their own mail. Strange concept but I think that over time, people may get used to it. Call me crazy but I think they will.
And regarding a related poster about Freud. I think Freud was pretty messed up and had the hots for his own mother. Freud's dream study is off in some parts. According to my personal observations dreams are your brain filing things you thought about during the day. The individual properties of each get intertwined which helps to explain the weird detachment from reality that many items in dreams have. If you care to discuss, I'll explain my rational and experiences to that in depth. But now, work calls.
I'm saying that due to the nature of the upbringing of the majority of humans, it becomes human nature to seek for an all knowing figure as we mature.
This email also allowed me to codify my basis through one criteria for the lack of a god. It was a primary stab. Please be patient. I look at us as very complex systems that evolved over time. Looking at the nature of functional, interoperating complexity in organisms such as us and in creatures less complex than us, indicates that as functional complexity increases, the numbers of individual species of that level of complexity decrease. Point being; look at the number of species of plankton and then look at the number of species of advanced mammals. As complexity goes up, you find less examples of complex organisms by species.
For something as complex as a god to exist, the odds approach zero by this reasoning. Of course, a god could exist outside our physical universe but then what good would it really do to even pay attention to it if it is that powerful and unreachable? A god of that type would have better things to do than pay attention to our sorry asses. It's got a universe or 10 to run. It would make more sense applying our efforts to improving our lives here.
So based upon my "complexity" postulation, the likelihood of a god within our physical realm is about 0 or less. If there is one that exists outside our detectable universe, then it's not worth paying attention to it because, 1) it's got better things to do, 2) it probably doesn't have the time to care about your and your gripes and 3) it is so far removed from us that it's just not relevant.
Simply put. As children, we grow up with "all knowing parental figures." With that as precident, when we grow up, we look for that figure. Therefore it is understandable and expected that humanity seek some type of all knowing figure to explain all they don not know and give them comfort when they are grown.
We as humans look for a god, even though based upon complex systems and greater scarcity of complex working systems as the systems become more complex, it is unlikely that one exists.
Last time I checked, ethernet cable was expensive. Unless you want to get a roll of cat-5 cable, crimpers and socket ends. Then you have to crawl all over the place, run and secure cable.
How much is your time worth?
I have run cable through my house and I have also set up 2 airports and am sharing one ethernet connection ala Internet sharing over my Airport card.
802.11g transfer rates I have observed for single user are similar to 1 to 2.5 X 10-baseT transfer speeds.
Go wireless with an antenna connected to your ethernet with a 10 base T or 100 base T connection if you wish to blanket cap bandwidth since all users must take their slice of the max throughput of the 802.11g router.
Or you could crawl around and lay cable if you prefer being on your knees.
So sweet. This is the best/. story this year because it can get rid of all those credit card offers.
I called up the phone number in step 5 and was notified of a web site that would remove credit card offers and insurance offers for 5 years or permanently!
Slashdot Mirror
DOH! And I forgot to mention a solar recharger for the iPod.
:D
http://www.solio.com/html/
AND it's made from recycled materials in a developing country
How about audiobooks on an iPod Shuffle?
Get two and when she ships one back, ship her another one updated with new audio books.
Right before the Loma Prieta (sp) in the SF Bay area, a bunch of horses in a Pescadero ranch south of Half Moon Bay, splayed their legs and straightened them, bracing for something that the ranchhand could not see. Several seconds later, like a wave, a 5 foot tall ripple of earth raced across the field.
The horses knew it was coming.
The owner of the farm recounted this story to me several years ago.
I'd give you a + 5 on that observation.
The only question I'd like to pose is that allegedly, and according to the article, many of the changes would happen before the actual event. Your point that people observe and then tune in would fall short in explaining this.
It does does raise the common similarity between all "major world happenings recorded", that people all tuned in to watch them and they did so on their TV's.
Nice.
The first time I user IRC on the VAX/VMS in 1989, I ended up talking to a young man in Berlin who told me the Berlin Wall was going to come down three days before CNN knew about it.
Every spare minute I had between class, I spent asking what he thought would happen, heard he was scared because the doubts of what would happen next and felt REAL glad I stumbled on IRC while most everyone else was using it to try and scam a date.
Knowing that something like this tool was able to bring people together across the world for such a world changing event just made me feel unbelievably privileged.
And I beat CNN with the news. Thanksgiving just meant more that year.
So true. What IS it that makes people grow those brooms on their faces?
My first impression was "social outcast".
What is it? Does the beard feel really good or does it have extra pockets? Does it scare away weak willed women so that only the determined get through?
Willies, I say. It gives me the willies and maybe even some heebie jeebies.
It's like wearing Cousin It below your nose.
Sure hope he has a cron job to remind him to bathe on a regular basis.
Gloor duk!
How does it taste?
I'm looking for a smoothness without that old straw taste.
Good point. I am not saying that it is the only method yet it is the only quantifiable method that is guaranteed to return the most accurate answers. If you can study a quantifiable result, then you may have something. If you do not have a quantifiable result, then you have no basis upon getting a reliable answer.
Scientific observation is the observation of quantifiable results. My the basis for my argument is based upon that methodology. It is not faith as you mention but direct observation of known results. All knowledge is not based upon that as you do mention (thanks for pointing that out) but if you wish to prove or disprove a theorem or even propose or postulate one, it is done based upon observaton of concrete results. Einstein did not feel that e = MC^2. He proved it with knowns. And that is my point. Right now, many people have feelings that make them think there is a god. But I have yet to see evidence that leads towards concretes on that matter.
If I do, than well, I'll have to change the title of this thread.
Just trying to further explain the basis to my approach.
Regards,
But Rick. How do you know that?
Seriously. I know many generous christians.
I was referring to the possibly strange thought that to assume that a god who has so much in his domain actually has the time to care about you as rather selfish and presumptious. It is a vastly different message than what we were taught in Sunday School but I put it out there.
Now, besides a feeling that he does, how do you know?
regards,
If theists and deists conceive of a god as a spirit, that brings up many problems. You assume that a spirit is not complex and they do not have parts. How do you know? What is the classification for a spirit? Who discovered, studied and documented the composition of a spirit and its traits and parts? Is this something other than a theist's conjecture to try and explain that which he does not know? You speak about a spirit as if it is a fact, a known classified and quantifiable thing. I have seen no scientific classification of a spirit. If you know of such a description, please feel free to share. If a god IS a spirit as you mention, until the properties of a spirit are known, it is useless to discuss since we are refuting and discussing properties based upon assumptions of an unknown.
Regarding your pointing out my "6 billion of us" as being simplistic. I am not referring to size but to amount and difficulty thereof. The complexity and difficulty of dealing with monitoring or paying attention to and granting favors for 6 billion of anything is astounding, let alone all the other factors in the surrounding world that may affect. In addition to the astounding difficulty of paying attention to 6 billion of us, aren't there infinitely more items in this universe alone that would need monitoring and would be be pretty damn important?
It makes me feel that the thought that a god actually has the time, inclination and capability to pay attention to our 6 billion+ needs in addition to running the rest of the universe not only simplistic but selfish and small minded. No offense intended.
We pray as if God is listening. If he doesn't exist, doesn't care or is napping, there are an awful lot of people on this planet who are simply wasting their time. And that's just sad.
A complex design does not require an intelligent design.
As of yet, I have not distilled everything I base my viewpoint on down in writing yet this thread has been a helpful exercise in that process.
If you do not believe in evolution (I don't know if evolution is part of your vision of intelligent design) there nave been many papers released over the past few years showing evolution in action, occurring over several generations of organisms in the wild and in the lab. NewScientist and eurekalert.org have these. Without going too much in depth, and starting with molecules, when certain molecular complex structures are formed, some of them - prions are one - support their own existence and lead towards self preservation and to duplication. At certain stages of complexity and message transfer, these items have a tendency to promote their own existence. I propose that it is inevitable that structures like this will come into existence as well as those that will not have this trait. Once an item has this trait and can respond to stresses and vary the structural outcome of its makeup, we have the basis the evolution. At certain points, through mutation and chance meetings (that are inevitable over a long period of time) more complexity is built into the system and new phemonina become present. It has been proven the the eye has developed through evolution independently in many different organisms, many times through evolutionary history. 4 billion years is an extraordinarily long time for creatures and structures to develop and for complexity to emerge. So long in fact that we can not comprehend it. My research indicates that creatures of our level of complexity would be expected at some point in those billions of years without the guiding hand of a superbeing to put us here.
Hope that helps to illustrate what I'm getting at.
1) Correct. To rebut your point, how would you propose a god could not be an extraordinarily complex item if not organism?
2) This is addressed in a later post in this thread. Please check if you are interested.
3) Yep. With so many things to run in a universe, why do we think we so important as to justify that a creature powerful enough to create the universe would actually spend its time on any one of the 6+ billion of us? Seems pretty selfish and self important of us if we think we deserve its time and that it has the time and energy to answer our pithy needs.
So you mentioned my problematic assumptions are "hopeless flawed" yet upon closer investigation, it appears that there are more to these points than initially meet the eye.
Constructive thoughts/feedback?
We know he's in Vegas but where? Anyone interested in collecting donations so we could put a hit on him or at least break his arms so he can't press keys? Maybe a kneecap or two. Is there any Yakuza in the house?
I mean the only way people would notice he is gone is that their email boxes would be more likely to full of their own mail. Strange concept but I think that over time, people may get used to it. Call me crazy but I think they will.
Very similar to one part of my reasoning.
And regarding a related poster about Freud. I think Freud was pretty messed up and had the hots for his own mother. Freud's dream study is off in some parts. According to my personal observations dreams are your brain filing things you thought about during the day. The individual properties of each get intertwined which helps to explain the weird detachment from reality that many items in dreams have. If you care to discuss, I'll explain my rational and experiences to that in depth. But now, work calls.
Agreed. But I am stating that it is human nature to search for a god based upon upbringing, not because there really is one and we must search for it.
The reasoning brings into question the existence of an entity if we are predisposed to search for it by our conditioning.
If you missed it, I was making a general representation.
However, where and how you run is pretty much up to you and the local law enforcement.
I'm saying that due to the nature of the upbringing of the majority of humans, it becomes human nature to seek for an all knowing figure as we mature.
This email also allowed me to codify my basis through one criteria for the lack of a god. It was a primary stab. Please be patient. I look at us as very complex systems that evolved over time. Looking at the nature of functional, interoperating complexity in organisms such as us and in creatures less complex than us, indicates that as functional complexity increases, the numbers of individual species of that level of complexity decrease. Point being; look at the number of species of plankton and then look at the number of species of advanced mammals. As complexity goes up, you find less examples of complex organisms by species.
For something as complex as a god to exist, the odds approach zero by this reasoning. Of course, a god could exist outside our physical universe but then what good would it really do to even pay attention to it if it is that powerful and unreachable? A god of that type would have better things to do than pay attention to our sorry asses. It's got a universe or 10 to run. It would make more sense applying our efforts to improving our lives here.
So based upon my "complexity" postulation, the likelihood of a god within our physical realm is about 0 or less. If there is one that exists outside our detectable universe, then it's not worth paying attention to it because, 1) it's got better things to do, 2) it probably doesn't have the time to care about your and your gripes and 3) it is so far removed from us that it's just not relevant.
How's that?
Simply put. As children, we grow up with "all knowing parental figures." With that as precident, when we grow up, we look for that figure. Therefore it is understandable and expected that humanity seek some type of all knowing figure to explain all they don not know and give them comfort when they are grown.
We as humans look for a god, even though based upon complex systems and greater scarcity of complex working systems as the systems become more complex, it is unlikely that one exists.
As we used to say in the old days, "all I want for Christmas is quad damage and a chain gun."
Of course, if you've got the pent, I'll take that too.
Last time I checked, ethernet cable was expensive. Unless you want to get a roll of cat-5 cable, crimpers and socket ends. Then you have to crawl all over the place, run and secure cable.
How much is your time worth?
I have run cable through my house and I have also set up 2 airports and am sharing one ethernet connection ala Internet sharing over my Airport card.
802.11g transfer rates I have observed for single user are similar to 1 to 2.5 X 10-baseT transfer speeds.
Go wireless with an antenna connected to your ethernet with a 10 base T or 100 base T connection if you wish to blanket cap bandwidth since all users must take their slice of the max throughput of the 802.11g router.
Or you could crawl around and lay cable if you prefer being on your knees.
So sweet. This is the best /. story this year because it can get rid of all those credit card offers.
I called up the phone number in step 5 and was notified of a web site that would remove credit card offers and insurance offers for 5 years or permanently!
Guess what I signed up for?
https://www.optoutprescreen.com/
So sweet. Less junk mail is a good thing.
Who can forget SST's!!
Plastic cars with a big rip cord driven wheel that would zoom down the asphalt and hopefully crash into the one your friend sent the same way!
You sir, are a good man.
Kudos.
I use Safari with PithHelmet and the Secunia page is blocked.
With PithHelmet off and Popup blocking off, I still don't see the Secunia page in Safari.
In iCab, the exploit appears.