You're willing to support someone that has committed crimes that have put all citizens of the US in danger - never mind the proper job of the NSA. As a US citizen, I would gladly drag Snowden to the nearest US presence by any means necessary - so that he can face justice in a proper venue, the court of law in the United States of America.
In a not-so-recent time, such as the Reagan era, Snowden would have already been quietly "handled". The most that we would hear is that some American was captured in Hong Kong trying to sell secrets. All would be well and he wouldn't have the opportunity to cause damage to anyone, including himself.
Those people that you know that want justice (through the return of Snowden) aren't lacking intelligence. They love the USA and don't care for the support for actions against it. (Since despots are willing to give Snowden sanctuary, extreme measures (what you call "blood") are necessary.)
The citizens have spoken: he is no hero, but a few vocal people have taken to the internet to consider him a "hero".
On the other hand: Russia has long since returned to its USSR ways. The amount of KGB-style assassinations, corruption, and gated communities of/in Russia outpace the US in its current condition. Germany's acting like the GDR when it comes to Snowden. They'd rather score cheap points against the world's only hyperpower(the US) by asking for the help of Russia.
So far, he has the following against him: 1. Violating the rules governing the use of classified information. 1A. Repeatedly doing so for every allegation that comes out. 2. Fleeing to another country during the commission of said crime. 3. Aiding and abetting foreign governments with said information.
Acquittal based on the evidence is unlikely to happen, and that's something that even Snowden would know. The longer that he maintains this personal vendetta against the NSA, the more rewarding it will be to see the inevitable conviction. Turning himself in would allow himself to at least register his objections in a court of law - where prompt cooperation would be likely to be in his favor.
Yes. Well, everyone who fled from the GDR broke a GDR law, so we should have sent them back? The US would gladly pick Snowden up from a variety of countries, including Germany, if it so desires. No extraordinary help is needed in the civilized world and many parts of the uncivilized world. The GDR on the other hand, had no such advantage despite the backing of the USSR - crossing into West Germany all but guaranteed your escape.
As a side note: It is ironic that you bring up a (now-former by virtue of reunification) country that sided with the USSR, given the current level of Russia-Germany cooperation against the United States wrt Snowden.
Given the general non availability of Google Glass, she deserved the ticket. How would the officer understand something to be safe if only a relative few have the device?
(knowing Google, the regular edition will be crippled for dubious reasons)
Given the mountains of evidence already against him, he only buries himself that much deeper with each unauthorized disclosure. At the very least, he's aided and abetted foreign governments - including ones that are hostile to the US (such as Russia and China) - through his "human rights" contacts. At the most, he has committed acts worthy of treason multiple times over. A court of law in the US would have more problems protecting him from the public than they would have convicting him.
Grab anyone who involves themselves with him, then repeat until Snowden has nobody who will take the information. When Snowden is finally brought to justice, go to town on him (much like one would with a terrorist) to help tie up loose ends.
There might be some truth to these claims if Snowden defended himself in a US court of law(as opposed to the PR offensive) with them. Shame that there isn't a greater pursuit to making it perilous to even have the information in hand.
The only proof so far is based on reaction to claims.
So far, he has only made allegations that have not been tested by a court in the US - with respect to his own actions.
At the same time, your statement could be applied negatively towards Snowden. He ensures that there is no oversight (or justice delivered to him from the US) concerning his own actions - despite the evidence of his transgressions. Why should we believe someone who is at the very least a disgruntled worker and at most a traitor to the United States (as well as a traitor to the citizens thereof) - based on the evidence of his actions taken against the NSA, Booz Allen Hamilton, and the US Government?
Perhaps when he(and his helpers) is facing the court of law in the US(the one that matters) versus hiding in a non-extradition country and attacking with the court of public opinion, he might actually be able to present factually accurate information. If it takes extraordinary measures to get him to justice, then that is what must be done, no matter how bad it plays out in the court of public opinion.
The only business that he has in despotic countries like China and Russia is to collect secrets of other countries and disclose them to the parts of the US Government that have a documented need to know(based on classification).
Now when will the set of leaks happen that target and identify Snowden and his helpers? Now that is information that would be deserving to be put in the light.
When we see Snowden captured, then one can figure out the substance of his allegations and quantify his damage(hint: it's more than you think). In addition, one can also take care of the loose ends - the people that aided and abetted him. It will be day worthy of celebration, much like the capture of OBL.
Of course, someone would rather modbomb me into oblivion instead of replying - since I have offended the Hive Mind by disagreeing with the purpose and intent of his actions.
France, which summoned the U.S. ambassador to explain allegations that the NSA spied on Alcatel-Lucent, ranks fifth in the world in metadata collection.
The only reply due to France is that they must first produce Edward Snowden - in the flesh - so that he can be taken into custody by the US Government. Otherwise the information is to be treated as a baseless allegation. The same can apply for any country or any source.
Never mind that we haven't heard from despotic countries like China and Russia aside from them being worse to their own for much longer.
Since the end of WWII and the start of the Cold War it acquired some more and significant enemies, especially disreputable commie dictatorships and their admirers, often nothing to be ashamed of.
Unfortunately, one of those enemies still is one, Russia. Freedom is measured by one's bank account and gated communities are more prevalent compared to the US. In addition, the allegations and statements made through Snowden are more prevalent in Russia by orders of magnitude. Never mind that the leader of that country is deeply tied with the old Soviet-era KGB, which should put things in perspective.
Please realise all this spying is not just about intelligence to protect The Nation, more and more it seems to be about control of very limited (group) interests.
The balance of the intelligence usage favors uses that protect the US. The rest can be written off as a cost of defending the country.
In addition to that question, a couple of others need to be asked:
- How can we mitigate the damage of him and those that aid/abet him?
- How can they ensure that anyone with the intention of following his path is found and handled(access removed along with full prosecution) before any damage is done?
I'll be glad to see him brought to the US and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, mod points be damned. He caused damage to this country that isn't limited to a bureaucrat, but to all of us that benefit from the safety and freedom preserved from the activities of the NSA.
Pardon if that doesn't go with the groupthink that he's a "hero", but he's done nothing inherently good. The only thing he should be doing in other countries is collecting intelligence on *other* countries to disclose to the appropriate parties who have a demonstrated need to know.
I disagree with this part. Yes, your income is more stable week to week but so what? You shouldn't be living paycheck to paycheck anyways.
However, it removes the switching costs from one entity to the next.
Someone who is self employed actually has more stable compensation in alot of cases especially if they have multiple clients as they can't show up to work one day and have their income instantly drop to zero because of factors outside of their control.
Only as stable as the stream of clients. On the other hand, regularized employment doesn't have a guaranteed Sword of Damocles over your head in the form of contract renewal or "landing the next job". About the only way it works is if someone has the rare luxury of refusing secure forms of work.
And I know multiple people who are employed yet decline employer benefits and keep their own insurance just because it is more stable to have third party insurance than to have your insurance change everytime you switch jobs.
However, they do not have the same benefits from economies of scale that come from regularized employment. Increased taxes also eat up part of the increased pay as one files differently versus a normal employee.
So yes, compensation/benefits/employment are more stable as long as you stay with the same company for a long period of time but that's becoming rarer and rarer.
The more reason to make it an option to be less stable, not as an employer-defined condition of work. That is, bring the rare luxury of choice of form of work to all.
He has a really useful piece of equipment that most editors don't have, which is a spinal column.
The only thing keeping him (and about anyone handling those files) vertical is the lack of will to break any support - or a willingness to stand against those who support betraying this country (hint: Snowden did, Clapper didn't).
Snowden betrayed the country and others (such as the Guardian) only wish to aid/abet his actions. The only valid action is to make the consequences of aiding/abetting him to be certain peril.
Given that many countries restrict access to education based on student performance on selected tests (while the US does not), these scores aren't exactly a meaningful comparison.
Or just kill the idea of any tier lower than full-time given that the lower tiers have less freedom overall. Triggering anything with a numeric minimum invites circumvention - as evidenced by the 29er/49er response to PPACA.
If there was a way to trigger OT w/o circumvention or exemption, it would be a good idea.
Forget the IT folks, I'd think that the people that send jobs offshore would be targeted - especially given that it targets those programmers and sysadmins.
This already has some truth given that no company wants to disclose offshoring efforts, and that employers make sure that there is a penalty for doing so. However, if it gets to the point where loss of life is encountered by those who send jobs offshore(or to guest workers), those severance-linked NDA's wont be a barrier to disclosure.
Thing #2 - Government intrusion into the healthcare system is pushing hard on companies to be ultralean and is also forcing the majority of the workforce that is not part of the core into a 29 hour work week -- both of these are caused by ultra-lean companies need to avoid having to "deal with" the government mandated healthcare system.
Then intervene further so that business cant create the two-class workforce - where:
Full-time & benefit status is instantaneously conferred - eliminating the possibility of a no-benefit tier for any given skill level.
Temporary/Staffing agency/Consulting/1099/etc work cannot be made a condition of accepting/continuing work - eliminating a means to control the workforce.
Unemployed of all types are considered a protected class wrt EEOC in exchange for removing nearly every other category.
If businesses dont have those ways to subjugate workers, they might just have to hire in good faith - in one tier.
So... this will be the new structure... and we have to be ready for it. The requirements for working in an ultra-lean company in the US are going to be much different than working in a traditional company... It is going to require higher education, more technical higher education, and multi-disciplinary people. It is also going to require programmming skills for every single member of the core (non-temp) team.
Or just kill the two tier idea with fire and from orbit. Make everyone in the core group by default and make temporary work a relic of the past.
Core + Temporary workers is an idea that needs to die for its second-class treatment of the masses put in the lower tier.
But, if you think about it a moment... instead of dwelling on the chance of the unrest of an "unprepared" society -- if society prepares itself and embraces the change... this is such an exciting a time in history. Never in the history of the world has there been more opportunity to be successful and for so few to touch so many lives. People are empowered as never before to produce an individual contribution to society. There is more to the world than brick and morter, and more freedom accessible than ever before for those willing to sieze on the opportunities at hand.
Unfortunately you cannot ignore the displaced in that manner. The best idea is to include them even if it means that businesses take on an unavoidable burden.
Let's teach our generation to cast off the old unproductive model and embrace the new and more fullfilling model of the future.
Good. Let's start by bringing the two-tier work model (core+temp) to the guillotine along with those who push for it. If you want workers in unstable arrangements, you'll have to make it more attractive than well-paid secure work(for all skill levels) instead of using it to deal with 'uppity workers'.
The days of a job for life, or even a LONG term (redacted term), have been over for a long time, No one should take a job with the hope of keeping it more than 4 years or so realistically.
Unfortunately, that push towards instability is what makes things worse off. Long term plans generally can't be made if you're having to worry about switching employers. In addition, such frequent switching lowers the quality of benefits overall. Never mind that it kills morale across the board given that you're not much more than a mercenary versus a valued partner in the workforce.
if you're younger, you should be job hopping every 3 years or so, if working W2 jobs...to get promotions and raises.
Which reflects a problem in the company and people like yourself more than ever. As evidenced in at least the defense contractor and public sector work, stability trumps precarity.
Slashdot Mirror
You're willing to support someone that has committed crimes that have put all citizens of the US in danger - never mind the proper job of the NSA. As a US citizen, I would gladly drag Snowden to the nearest US presence by any means necessary - so that he can face justice in a proper venue, the court of law in the United States of America.
In a not-so-recent time, such as the Reagan era, Snowden would have already been quietly "handled". The most that we would hear is that some American was captured in Hong Kong trying to sell secrets. All would be well and he wouldn't have the opportunity to cause damage to anyone, including himself.
Those people that you know that want justice (through the return of Snowden) aren't lacking intelligence. They love the USA and don't care for the support for actions against it.
(Since despots are willing to give Snowden sanctuary, extreme measures (what you call "blood") are necessary.)
The citizens have spoken: he is no hero, but a few vocal people have taken to the internet to consider him a "hero".
Never.
On the other hand:
Russia has long since returned to its USSR ways. The amount of KGB-style assassinations, corruption, and gated communities of/in Russia outpace the US in its current condition.
Germany's acting like the GDR when it comes to Snowden. They'd rather score cheap points against the world's only hyperpower(the US) by asking for the help of Russia.
N/T
If you think the charges are bad, go to the nearest US Government presence and turn yourself in. Then prepare your case in court.
Manning didn't get a special deal in the military, and neither should you as a civilian for the same conduct.
So far, he has the following against him:
1. Violating the rules governing the use of classified information.
1A. Repeatedly doing so for every allegation that comes out.
2. Fleeing to another country during the commission of said crime.
3. Aiding and abetting foreign governments with said information.
Acquittal based on the evidence is unlikely to happen, and that's something that even Snowden would know. The longer that he maintains this personal vendetta against the NSA, the more rewarding it will be to see the inevitable conviction. Turning himself in would allow himself to at least register his objections in a court of law - where prompt cooperation would be likely to be in his favor.
Yes. Well, everyone who fled from the GDR broke a GDR law, so we should have sent them back?
The US would gladly pick Snowden up from a variety of countries, including Germany, if it so desires. No extraordinary help is needed in the civilized world and many parts of the uncivilized world. The GDR on the other hand, had no such advantage despite the backing of the USSR - crossing into West Germany all but guaranteed your escape.
As a side note:
It is ironic that you bring up a (now-former by virtue of reunification) country that sided with the USSR, given the current level of Russia-Germany cooperation against the United States wrt Snowden.
Given the general non availability of Google Glass, she deserved the ticket. How would the officer understand something to be safe if only a relative few have the device?
(knowing Google, the regular edition will be crippled for dubious reasons)
Given the mountains of evidence already against him, he only buries himself that much deeper with each unauthorized disclosure. At the very least, he's aided and abetted foreign governments - including ones that are hostile to the US (such as Russia and China) - through his "human rights" contacts. At the most, he has committed acts worthy of treason multiple times over. A court of law in the US would have more problems protecting him from the public than they would have convicting him.
Grab anyone who involves themselves with him, then repeat until Snowden has nobody who will take the information. When Snowden is finally brought to justice, go to town on him (much like one would with a terrorist) to help tie up loose ends.
There might be some truth to these claims if Snowden defended himself in a US court of law(as opposed to the PR offensive) with them. Shame that there isn't a greater pursuit to making it perilous to even have the information in hand.
The only proof so far is based on reaction to claims.
So far, he has only made allegations that have not been tested by a court in the US - with respect to his own actions.
At the same time, your statement could be applied negatively towards Snowden. He ensures that there is no oversight (or justice delivered to him from the US) concerning his own actions - despite the evidence of his transgressions. Why should we believe someone who is at the very least a disgruntled worker and at most a traitor to the United States (as well as a traitor to the citizens thereof) - based on the evidence of his actions taken against the NSA, Booz Allen Hamilton, and the US Government?
Perhaps when he(and his helpers) is facing the court of law in the US(the one that matters) versus hiding in a non-extradition country and attacking with the court of public opinion, he might actually be able to present factually accurate information. If it takes extraordinary measures to get him to justice, then that is what must be done, no matter how bad it plays out in the court of public opinion.
The only business that he has in despotic countries like China and Russia is to collect secrets of other countries and disclose them to the parts of the US Government that have a documented need to know(based on classification).
Now when will the set of leaks happen that target and identify Snowden and his helpers? Now that is information that would be deserving to be put in the light.
The US would react in a way that would not be picked up by the public. We wouldn't hear about it.
When we see Snowden captured, then one can figure out the substance of his allegations and quantify his damage(hint: it's more than you think). In addition, one can also take care of the loose ends - the people that aided and abetted him. It will be day worthy of celebration, much like the capture of OBL.
Of course, someone would rather modbomb me into oblivion instead of replying - since I have offended the Hive Mind by disagreeing with the purpose and intent of his actions.
France, which summoned the U.S. ambassador to explain allegations that the NSA spied on Alcatel-Lucent, ranks fifth in the world in metadata collection.
The only reply due to France is that they must first produce Edward Snowden - in the flesh - so that he can be taken into custody by the US Government. Otherwise the information is to be treated as a baseless allegation. The same can apply for any country or any source.
Never mind that we haven't heard from despotic countries like China and Russia aside from them being worse to their own for much longer.
Since the end of WWII and the start of the Cold War it acquired some more and significant enemies, especially disreputable commie dictatorships and their admirers, often nothing to be ashamed of.
Unfortunately, one of those enemies still is one, Russia. Freedom is measured by one's bank account and gated communities are more prevalent compared to the US. In addition, the allegations and statements made through Snowden are more prevalent in Russia by orders of magnitude. Never mind that the leader of that country is deeply tied with the old Soviet-era KGB, which should put things in perspective.
Please realise all this spying is not just about intelligence to protect The Nation, more and more it seems to be about control of very limited (group) interests.
The balance of the intelligence usage favors uses that protect the US. The rest can be written off as a cost of defending the country.
In addition to that question, a couple of others need to be asked:
- How can we mitigate the damage of him and those that aid/abet him?
- How can they ensure that anyone with the intention of following his path is found and handled(access removed along with full prosecution) before any damage is done?
I'll be glad to see him brought to the US and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, mod points be damned. He caused damage to this country that isn't limited to a bureaucrat, but to all of us that benefit from the safety and freedom preserved from the activities of the NSA.
Pardon if that doesn't go with the groupthink that he's a "hero", but he's done nothing inherently good. The only thing he should be doing in other countries is collecting intelligence on *other* countries to disclose to the appropriate parties who have a demonstrated need to know.
Moderation -2
50% Troll
50% Flamebait
Looks like the pro-Snowden collective can't handle the truth. They can be broken, the only barrier is willpower.
I disagree with this part. Yes, your income is more stable week to week but so what? You shouldn't
be living paycheck to paycheck anyways.
However, it removes the switching costs from one entity to the next.
Someone who is self employed actually has more stable compensation in alot of cases especially if they have multiple clients as they can't show up to work one day and have their income instantly drop to zero because of factors outside of their control.
Only as stable as the stream of clients. On the other hand, regularized employment doesn't have a guaranteed Sword of Damocles over your head in the form of contract renewal or "landing the next job". About the only way it works is if someone has the rare luxury of refusing secure forms of work.
And I know multiple people who are employed yet decline employer benefits and keep their own insurance just because it is more stable to have third party insurance than to have your insurance change everytime you switch jobs.
However, they do not have the same benefits from economies of scale that come from regularized employment. Increased taxes also eat up part of the increased pay as one files differently versus a normal employee.
So yes, compensation/benefits/employment are more stable as long as you stay with the same company for a long period of time but that's becoming rarer and rarer.
The more reason to make it an option to be less stable, not as an employer-defined condition of work. That is, bring the rare luxury of choice of form of work to all.
He has a really useful piece of equipment that most editors don't have, which is a spinal column.
The only thing keeping him (and about anyone handling those files) vertical is the lack of will to break any support - or a willingness to stand against those who support betraying this country (hint: Snowden did, Clapper didn't).
Snowden betrayed the country and others (such as the Guardian) only wish to aid/abet his actions. The only valid action is to make the consequences of aiding/abetting him to be certain peril.
Given that many countries restrict access to education based on student performance on selected tests (while the US does not), these scores aren't exactly a meaningful comparison.
Or just kill the idea of any tier lower than full-time given that the lower tiers have less freedom overall. Triggering anything with a numeric minimum invites circumvention - as evidenced by the 29er/49er response to PPACA.
If there was a way to trigger OT w/o circumvention or exemption, it would be a good idea.
Forget the IT folks, I'd think that the people that send jobs offshore would be targeted - especially given that it targets those programmers and sysadmins.
This already has some truth given that no company wants to disclose offshoring efforts, and that employers make sure that there is a penalty for doing so. However, if it gets to the point where loss of life is encountered by those who send jobs offshore(or to guest workers), those severance-linked NDA's wont be a barrier to disclosure.
Thing #2 - Government intrusion into the healthcare system is pushing hard on companies to be ultralean and is also forcing the majority of the workforce that is not part of the core into a 29 hour work week -- both of these are caused by ultra-lean companies need to avoid having to "deal with" the government mandated healthcare system.
Then intervene further so that business cant create the two-class workforce - where:
Full-time & benefit status is instantaneously conferred - eliminating the possibility of a no-benefit tier for any given skill level.
Temporary/Staffing agency/Consulting/1099/etc work cannot be made a condition of accepting/continuing work - eliminating a means to control the workforce.
Unemployed of all types are considered a protected class wrt EEOC in exchange for removing nearly every other category.
If businesses dont have those ways to subjugate workers, they might just have to hire in good faith - in one tier.
So... this will be the new structure... and we have to be ready for it. The requirements for working in an ultra-lean company in the US are going to be much different than working in a traditional company... It is going to require higher education, more technical higher education, and multi-disciplinary people. It is also going to require programmming skills for every single member of the core (non-temp) team.
Or just kill the two tier idea with fire and from orbit. Make everyone in the core group by default and make temporary work a relic of the past.
Core + Temporary workers is an idea that needs to die for its second-class treatment of the masses put in the lower tier.
But, if you think about it a moment... instead of dwelling on the chance of the unrest of an "unprepared" society -- if society prepares itself and embraces the change... this is such an exciting a time in history. Never in the history of the world has there been more opportunity to be successful and for so few to touch so many lives. People are empowered as never before to produce an individual contribution to society. There is more to the world than brick and morter, and more freedom accessible than ever before for those willing to sieze on the opportunities at hand.
Unfortunately you cannot ignore the displaced in that manner. The best idea is to include them even if it means that businesses take on an unavoidable burden.
Let's teach our generation to cast off the old unproductive model and embrace the new and more fullfilling model of the future.
Good. Let's start by bringing the two-tier work model (core+temp) to the guillotine along with those who push for it. If you want workers in unstable arrangements, you'll have to make it more attractive than well-paid secure work(for all skill levels) instead of using it to deal with 'uppity workers'.
The days of a job for life, or even a LONG term (redacted term), have been over for a long time, No one should take a job with the hope of keeping it more than 4 years or so realistically.
Unfortunately, that push towards instability is what makes things worse off. Long term plans generally can't be made if you're having to worry about switching employers. In addition, such frequent switching lowers the quality of benefits overall. Never mind that it kills morale across the board given that you're not much more than a mercenary versus a valued partner in the workforce.
if you're younger, you should be job hopping every 3 years or so, if working W2 jobs...to get promotions and raises.
Which reflects a problem in the company and people like yourself more than ever. As evidenced in at least the defense contractor and public sector work, stability trumps precarity.
Laws, along with a heavy dose of telling them to pound sand, can change the compensation while retaining the same type of worker.
They'll train the H1B but not the US citizen for the same jnob.