I agree with the above, more or less. I also use win2k, especially at work - because it makes me more productive. Yes, you heard right. What I do not do is use any MS Office stuff, or matter of factly anything that costs lots of money. There are lots of free programs and when that fails, great and cheap shareware that can do anything I need. Note: That *I* need.
I do deploy server stuff on Linux, and I find Red Hat comfortable to use as a work station too.
I had no such trouble with RH, I can get the resolution I want, and it did find my Microsoft USB optical mouse which I was very impressed with.
I still feel that win2k is the better OS, since it is extremely stable, fast and easy to use. Unless you want to actually do something complicated a bit deeper - then it is just as hard to find as in Linux.:)
No real crashes for years, and good uptime. With good uptime, I mean for weeks - that is really good enough for work stations that also do lots of experimental installs, but not for servers.:)
To me, Linux is great as a Server (would never use MS for that), but it is nowhere close as a Work Station. That doesn't mean it is a bad work station. I think it is a good one - just not nearly *as* good.
Of course, now I will also be called a troll. Sigh. Maybe better not tell people how I feel about Macs.;-)
But I will tell you beforehand, I am not totally buying that explanation (#2)- it would mean that almost every java developer, including old professionals would suck, since I've seen quite a few java apps.
And your point 1. is nothing I recognize at all... but maybe I am just lucky.
Yes, I know, I know, it is probably FUD, but how come I never ever find any java applications that are this fast as they say? I mean, I have this 1.8GHz computer with (only) 256 MB of ram and the rest average stuff. I have the hotspots and the JITs people talk about from different vendors. Why does no java apps actually perform?
I like coding in java, you might even say "I want to believe" (in my best X-files voice) but how? People point to stuff like JBuilder, or other commercially built applications by big businesses. Nada. And no, I am not talking about my own applications either, although they be slow, they too...:)
So give me one good example and tell me how to run it, and I will believe. Noone has, yet.
http://www.mingw.org/ || http://www.cygwin.com/ - using GCC on Windows is not a problem anymore. I do it often, with no problems, and then you should keep in mind that I'm not very good at this stuff on any platform.:)
What if the security hole allows root access? That is not an unknown expliot to happen now and then.
And I'll give you another scenario: Market dude is going to run a GUI, like Gnome or KDE or something. In those, you often have a lot of apps that can only be run as root, so they prompt you for the password. They will usually have this password, even though you will say they shouldn't. They will. They will also have come across this question now and then, when being lost in the menus.
Evil code pops up it's own password box, asking for the root password. Boom.
What happens when remotely exploitable holes start showing up in this distribution?
Exactly the same thing as happens when it does on Windows. Unless you have a very alert sysadmin (and very few have), the hole will go unpatched for a long time, then some CEO or marketing dude executes an attachement, and boom.
Then, some support guy will install the updates/patches that are needed.
No matter how much easier it may be on Windows, users doesn't upgrade anyways - for those that actually do, the Linux way is probably easy enough.
Of course. By giving students cheap development environments, they get future software to their platform, as well as future programmers. Possibly even students that bitch to their teachers that they should be running the MS environments in programming classes.
The "Page info" button is *really* handy as you can get to the google cache from there... even while you realize that the page isn't gonna load because it is slashdotted.
The "Move up one level" is the button that browsers has lacked for years. It is amazing that this isn't in all of them.
This display of the search words, clickable so you can searh the document for the mtaches without bringing up an unfriendly search box that doesn't wrap the search. And highlighting of the words, too.
"Search this site"-button.
History (clearable, if you are worried about someone seeing your searches for pr0n;-)).
And if I understand this correctly, you can choose to help google with their data by letting them "spy" on your searches. Before anyone cries out, go try install it and see the size of those warnings, the privacy statements, and realize that it is something they ask you to do if you wish. You don't have to. I have this turned on.
Some of this is stuff that browsers should already have without plugins. If I could choose, it'd have em all.
First you tell me that you've been using *NIXes for at least 10 years (assuming SunOS was only one year) and then you ask what the new home PC user would think about dselect??
I can tell you that. I can *also* tell you what said user think about slackware, as I was that user not long ago, at least when it comes to installing and setting up linux.
Said user will think that dselect takes forever to go through - and be correct. Depending on stamina, he/she will spend X minutes selecting stuff that sounds cool and/or useful, then give up and use apt-get for the rest of their days. Yes, dselect is bloated beyond recognition. Then comes the real fun. Finding the idiotically^Wobscurely named packages. Befoer anyone argues: Set someone that knows linux, but not debian, and ask them to get mod_perl installed. Took me hours to find the friggin package. And then it didn't work.:)
Now slackware... wow. It has a friendly installer in that sense that it uses english (which I can read) and that it asks me what I want to do. End of friendliness. Thanks to a semi-good linux how-to, I actually managed to get through the install on the Xth try, when I finally got working partitions in. Other Linuxes help you with this. Not this one.
When I finally got it up and running, I spent the next week:
* Learning how to edit XF86Config manually to get my language on the keyboard (was not available in slackware as an only), get my mouse working and get my monitor to go over 640x480.
* Recompiling the kernel to get the mouse to work. This is one of the things the home PC guy wants to try first of all. Not.
* Realizing that all Linux howtos are worthless because this is Sys-V. Have you noticed that Slackware guys does not write documentation?
* Giving up and throwing the crap out. All of the above is fun and good to know how to, but not to be able to use the system at all. Save that for later.
There's your home PC guy for ya.
Now, how is this better to someone without 10+ years of unix experience?
First off, anything is easy compared to installing Debian (typical that I *do* run it, anyways... sigh.) Well, slackware's worse.
And second, no marketing drone has ever, as long as humans has kept track, installed anything except the latest email worm. For all the other software, they grab whoever is close and not wearing a tie. Usually it is some guy that would rather shoot himself in the foot than use up the afternoon installing windows Me, but there you go.
Well, good abstracted PHP may not exist (then again it may), but good abstracted Perl (as one example) does exist, and is "slapped together" much, much faster than the Java. Just because a language has most things you actually *need* as built-ins, doesn't mean it isn't structured.
I've built apps in Java and Perl the last three or four years. I dared to look at, and actually try some of the competition.
I didn't say Java was slow. Although that JBuilder example only is true on the latest equipment. Oh, right. You are working at a place that can afford developing in J2EE. Never mind.
What I did say is that J2EE is slow.
Well, my job is a J2EE developer, so I guess the complex, enterprise level application that is running currently in front of me isn't java, cause it isn't beautiful in practice.
So what was the point in doing it in "good abstracted OO Java" vs "scripted"? And oh, I did say it wasn't in practice. Just like you.
As for your last statement: All the best of luck to you. Seems you are settled then.:)
I was going to say the same about security, then I realized that it is unlikely that Yahoo is sharing servers with someone else... in that case, they may have a point. Perl isn't necessarily *more* secure than PHP on a single server. It is, however, *very* secure. If you wish it to be. One problem may be that Perl lets you be as insecure as you like... well, that goes for most languages I guess. But Perl is very powerful, and with great powers come great responsibility. It might be good to choose something with less horsepowers too...;-)
What I don't understand is how they can think that mixing HTML and code as the default would make it easier to maintain. Most Perl-HTML stuff encourages separation of data, code and presentation, while PHP kinda enforces everything mixed up. In both, you can do it the other way around though.
Perl would seem a much better and more powerful choice to me, but I suppose they had specific reasons in this specific situation.
As long as they didn't choose ASP (or J2EE, for that matter), I'm happy. And so are they.:)
Because J2EE is slow to develop in, and slow at executing?
One of the criteria was fast development and turnaround time, as they need to stay ahead of competition. J2EE is beautiful in theory, but not in practice. Anyone with that only on their resume will have to shape up the next years, when PHB's stop buying that particular buzzword and move on to the next.
... for a Mac. When it goes up to double performance, I'll consider it. For now, it is just so many pretty colors when running in as a server. In my personal opinion, that goes for the desktop too. But I'm sure many disagree, because "OS X has feature X!" Fine with me.
That is just so much bullshit. Windows does not automatically install HTTP or FTP servers, or anything like it. You have to specifically request that when installing.
Granted, what you get when you do request it (IIS) is crappy to administrate and has the worst security record ever, but it is not installed by default. And when you have installed it, it does not start by itself. It does not come with "no pasword". Etc.
That is just something I can only assume that whiny youngsters said to their parents/professors/whoever that was really mad when the computer got hit by some virus. Maybe you are one of those, covering your *ss still?
On a side note, last I tried Mac OS X, it did by default install (and maybe even start?) an Apache server. But that was a long time ago, and it may have been a beta release.
The real fact is that if Apple was as hated as MS, they would have as many exploits, and that probably goes for Linux. Or maybe it is that noone would pay that insane money for a machine that can't play their games just to see how it could be rooted...
Slashdot Mirror
I agree with the above, more or less. I also use win2k, especially at work - because it makes me more productive. Yes, you heard right. What I do not do is use any MS Office stuff, or matter of factly anything that costs lots of money. There are lots of free programs and when that fails, great and cheap shareware that can do anything I need. Note: That *I* need.
:)
:)
;-)
I do deploy server stuff on Linux, and I find Red Hat comfortable to use as a work station too.
I had no such trouble with RH, I can get the resolution I want, and it did find my Microsoft USB optical mouse which I was very impressed with.
I still feel that win2k is the better OS, since it is extremely stable, fast and easy to use. Unless you want to actually do something complicated a bit deeper - then it is just as hard to find as in Linux.
No real crashes for years, and good uptime. With good uptime, I mean for weeks - that is really good enough for work stations that also do lots of experimental installs, but not for servers.
To me, Linux is great as a Server (would never use MS for that), but it is nowhere close as a Work Station. That doesn't mean it is a bad work station. I think it is a good one - just not nearly *as* good.
Of course, now I will also be called a troll. Sigh. Maybe better not tell people how I feel about Macs.
Thank you, I will.
But I will tell you beforehand, I am not totally buying that explanation (#2)- it would mean that almost every java developer, including old professionals would suck, since I've seen quite a few java apps.
And your point 1. is nothing I recognize at all... but maybe I am just lucky.
Yes, I know, I know, it is probably FUD, but how come I never ever find any java applications that are this fast as they say? I mean, I have this 1.8GHz computer with (only) 256 MB of ram and the rest average stuff. I have the hotspots and the JITs people talk about from different vendors. Why does no java apps actually perform?
:)
I like coding in java, you might even say "I want to believe" (in my best X-files voice) but how? People point to stuff like JBuilder, or other commercially built applications by big businesses. Nada. And no, I am not talking about my own applications either, although they be slow, they too...
So give me one good example and tell me how to run it, and I will believe. Noone has, yet.
http://www.mingw.org/ || http://www.cygwin.com/ :)
- using GCC on Windows is not a problem anymore. I do it often, with no problems, and then you should keep in mind that I'm not very good at this stuff on any platform.
http://www.wxwindows.org/ - mature crossplatform C++ library, and not only for GUI, either.
I don't know what you need, but WxWindows and GCC cross-compiling (see mingw32 faq, for instance) might be what you need?
WxWindows also have good bindings to python and perl etc. for more rapid crossplatform development.
Cue ICQ flower icon to the right: "Uh-oh." :)
You are taking all the fun out of this. ;-)
Yeah, you'd like to think so, don't you?
What if the security hole allows root access? That is not an unknown expliot to happen now and then.
And I'll give you another scenario: Market dude is going to run a GUI, like Gnome or KDE or something. In those, you often have a lot of apps that can only be run as root, so they prompt you for the password. They will usually have this password, even though you will say they shouldn't. They will. They will also have come across this question now and then, when being lost in the menus.
Evil code pops up it's own password box, asking for the root password. Boom.
What happens when remotely exploitable holes start showing up in this distribution?
Exactly the same thing as happens when it does on Windows. Unless you have a very alert sysadmin (and very few have), the hole will go unpatched for a long time, then some CEO or marketing dude executes an attachement, and boom.
Then, some support guy will install the updates/patches that are needed.
No matter how much easier it may be on Windows, users doesn't upgrade anyways - for those that actually do, the Linux way is probably easy enough.
From what I understand the new email client that comes with OS X Jaguar has a feature similar to this, but I don't know if it is true Bayesian.
Who cares? Whatever works best should be used, not the one with the coolest name or whitepaper, right?
Just came here after a few hours of playing Counterstrike (and poorly), and all I could think was "Terrorists win". :)
Of course. By giving students cheap development environments, they get future software to their platform, as well as future programmers. Possibly even students that bitch to their teachers that they should be running the MS environments in programming classes.
Nope. You'll notice that the pain isn't as sharp and not as lasting when using a common gun.
The "Page info" button is *really* handy as you can get to the google cache from there... even while you realize that the page isn't gonna load because it is slashdotted.
;-)).
The "Move up one level" is the button that browsers has lacked for years. It is amazing that this isn't in all of them.
This display of the search words, clickable so you can searh the document for the mtaches without bringing up an unfriendly search box that doesn't wrap the search. And highlighting of the words, too.
"Search this site"-button.
History (clearable, if you are worried about someone seeing your searches for pr0n
And if I understand this correctly, you can choose to help google with their data by letting them "spy" on your searches. Before anyone cries out, go try install it and see the size of those warnings, the privacy statements, and realize that it is something they ask you to do if you wish. You don't have to. I have this turned on.
Some of this is stuff that browsers should already have without plugins. If I could choose, it'd have em all.
Well Duh.
:)
First you tell me that you've been using *NIXes for at least 10 years (assuming SunOS was only one year) and then you ask what the new home PC user would think about dselect??
I can tell you that. I can *also* tell you what said user think about slackware, as I was that user not long ago, at least when it comes to installing and setting up linux.
Said user will think that dselect takes forever to go through - and be correct. Depending on stamina, he/she will spend X minutes selecting stuff that sounds cool and/or useful, then give up and use apt-get for the rest of their days. Yes, dselect is bloated beyond recognition. Then comes the real fun. Finding the idiotically^Wobscurely named packages. Befoer anyone argues: Set someone that knows linux, but not debian, and ask them to get mod_perl installed. Took me hours to find the friggin package. And then it didn't work.
Now slackware... wow. It has a friendly installer in that sense that it uses english (which I can read) and that it asks me what I want to do. End of friendliness. Thanks to a semi-good linux how-to, I actually managed to get through the install on the Xth try, when I finally got working partitions in. Other Linuxes help you with this. Not this one.
When I finally got it up and running, I spent the next week:
* Learning how to edit XF86Config manually to get my language on the keyboard (was not available in slackware as an only), get my mouse working and get my monitor to go over 640x480.
* Recompiling the kernel to get the mouse to work. This is one of the things the home PC guy wants to try first of all. Not.
* Realizing that all Linux howtos are worthless because this is Sys-V. Have you noticed that Slackware guys does not write documentation?
* Giving up and throwing the crap out. All of the above is fun and good to know how to, but not to be able to use the system at all. Save that for later.
There's your home PC guy for ya.
Now, how is this better to someone without 10+ years of unix experience?
Debian is hard, but slackware is worse.
Or you have to put in that 10 years disclaimer.
First off, anything is easy compared to installing Debian (typical that I *do* run it, anyways... sigh.) Well, slackware's worse.
And second, no marketing drone has ever, as long as humans has kept track, installed anything except the latest email worm. For all the other software, they grab whoever is close and not wearing a tie. Usually it is some guy that would rather shoot himself in the foot than use up the afternoon installing windows Me, but there you go.
Less AOL, Yahoo, MSN and IRC? Oh, wait...
:)
I wouldn't miss the ads though.
Personally, I found CenterICQ to be one of the best multi-IM applications. :)
Well, good abstracted PHP may not exist (then again it may), but good abstracted Perl (as one example) does exist, and is "slapped together" much, much faster than the Java. Just because a language has most things you actually *need* as built-ins, doesn't mean it isn't structured.
:)
I've built apps in Java and Perl the last three or four years. I dared to look at, and actually try some of the competition.
I didn't say Java was slow. Although that JBuilder example only is true on the latest equipment. Oh, right. You are working at a place that can afford developing in J2EE. Never mind.
What I did say is that J2EE is slow.
Well, my job is a J2EE developer, so I guess the complex, enterprise level application that is running currently in front of me isn't java, cause it isn't beautiful in practice.
So what was the point in doing it in "good abstracted OO Java" vs "scripted"? And oh, I did say it wasn't in practice. Just like you.
As for your last statement: All the best of luck to you. Seems you are settled then.
Since I've run w2k and installed several machines the past three years, I know you are bullshitting me too, now. Nice try.
I don't know about XP either, and God willing, I'll never have to.
I was going to say the same about security, then I realized that it is unlikely that Yahoo is sharing servers with someone else... in that case, they may have a point. Perl isn't necessarily *more* secure than PHP on a single server. It is, however, *very* secure. If you wish it to be. One problem may be that Perl lets you be as insecure as you like... well, that goes for most languages I guess. But Perl is very powerful, and with great powers come great responsibility. It might be good to choose something with less horsepowers too... ;-)
:)
What I don't understand is how they can think that mixing HTML and code as the default would make it easier to maintain. Most Perl-HTML stuff encourages separation of data, code and presentation, while PHP kinda enforces everything mixed up. In both, you can do it the other way around though.
Perl would seem a much better and more powerful choice to me, but I suppose they had specific reasons in this specific situation.
As long as they didn't choose ASP (or J2EE, for that matter), I'm happy. And so are they.
Because J2EE is slow to develop in, and slow at executing?
One of the criteria was fast development and turnaround time, as they need to stay ahead of competition. J2EE is beautiful in theory, but not in practice. Anyone with that only on their resume will have to shape up the next years, when PHB's stop buying that particular buzzword and move on to the next.
... for a Mac. When it goes up to double performance, I'll consider it. For now, it is just so many pretty colors when running in as a server. In my personal opinion, that goes for the desktop too. But I'm sure many disagree, because "OS X has feature X!" Fine with me.
That is just so much bullshit. Windows does not automatically install HTTP or FTP servers, or anything like it. You have to specifically request that when installing.
Granted, what you get when you do request it (IIS) is crappy to administrate and has the worst security record ever, but it is not installed by default. And when you have installed it, it does not start by itself. It does not come with "no pasword". Etc.
That is just something I can only assume that whiny youngsters said to their parents/professors/whoever that was really mad when the computer got hit by some virus. Maybe you are one of those, covering your *ss still?
On a side note, last I tried Mac OS X, it did by default install (and maybe even start?) an Apache server. But that was a long time ago, and it may have been a beta release.
The real fact is that if Apple was as hated as MS, they would have as many exploits, and that probably goes for Linux. Or maybe it is that noone would pay that insane money for a machine that can't play their games just to see how it could be rooted...
And "because you cannot control the cache on your computer" is exactly why you won't be held liable in a sane justice system.
And what if you don't have a sane justice system then? I don't think I need to mention any names, or examples to the average slashdot reader...