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Halloween VII
mjh writes "ESR has reviewed the latest Microsoft leaked Linux strategy document. A very interesting read. Summary: OSS is winning some battles, but Microsoft is poised to bring out bigger and nastier guns." To the extent that people read it and gain some insight into what Microsoft is actually thinking about Linux and Open Source Software, it's useful. To the extent that anyone draws a conclusion from this document like "we've got Microsoft on the run", that's just idiotic.
Maybe she will understand how badly she screwed up!
Who are you? The new #2 Who is #1? You are #617565. I am not a number, I am a free man! Muhahaha.
Although this seems legit at-a-glance, I can't find any proof that this is truely an internal MS document. Time for me to start querying the insiders :-).
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Halloween VII, posted by Michael, eh? Where's the theme music?
Cheers
-b
If I wanted a sig I would have filled in that stupid box.
Has there really been 7 of these things already?
Ñ'
be careful, do you believe everything you read on the internet?
-- Betting on the survival of the media industry is a serious risk. I advise investing elsewhere.
... but mostly incorporating ideas and concepts into their OS. Maybe sometimes OS projects should also pay attention to succesful companies (from marketing, not technical point of view).
;)
Remember a lie repeated 1000 times can become truth
Notepad specialist & FAT administrator, group training available
Is this for real? Hell I could post a "document on my website and say it was from MS. How do we know this is the "real thing"?
[n8.r0n] http://petesweb.spymac.net/
>>Microsoft's FUD attacks on open source have not only failed, they have backfired strongly enough to show up in Microsoft's own market research as a problem.
>This means we don't need to put a lot of energy into anti-FUD defending the open-source way of doing things. Indications are we've won that battle; effort should now go elsewhere.
That's exactly what *they* want you to think!!
Reportedly The Leaked Stragey Document only runs on an ATI RADEON 9700, and is pretty slugish even on the most high-end 3Mhz PC's. Oh wait - that's the leaked Doom 3 Alpha, never mind.
Even though it may look legit at first glance. WHen you read it again, it seems apparant that almost someone who put time and effort into writing this article, could easily have made up the percentages, figures and results.
The Germans, French and Japanese are tending towards Open Source Software.
We can share some of our source code and make inroads on Open Source software.
All in all, a rather vapid document, but at least ESR restrained himself on the asides. Funny how losing 99% of your paper wealth can make one more humble.
A. Rightmann
Whats the chances of this "Leak" being intentional? M$ isn't to be underestimated, especially not with pockets as deep as theirs.
Due to the sensitive nature of this information, please forward with discretion only to those people who can clearly gain value from it...
...
Ah, gain value? They mean *head-shaking* or *laughing* geeks? Oh, well
Life sucks.
"The term 'free software' isn't mentioned once, not even as an exploitable weakness. This contrasts strongly with the original Halloween Memoranda. I'm not sure what this means, but one strong possibility is that the term has simply fallen out of use both at Microsoft and in their survey population."
That's because - even amoung SlashDotters - the desire is for control of code, so you can make changes, not abstract `free beer vs free cheese` or whatever the hell that beard worrier RMS is going on about these days. People hack code for a laugh (and for a living), not to scare the government, or change the world.
We've got Microsoft on the... oh, sorry, never mind.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
The essence of the document was that MS's attacks on the viral nature of the GPL weren't working and that they'd do better to extol the virtues of their own product.
:)
Notice that, for the most part, the exact opposite strategy works for Linux advocates.
This is because Microsoft, as the dominant player, has to justify it's own existence again and again, whereas Linux as the (initial) underdg, had nothing to lose by tearing down its rival. After all, as a multi-billion $$$ company, everyone knows that Microsoft can financially dominate the PR world to badmouth its competitors.
Does this spell the end of "Linux is Bad/The GPL is unAmerican" propaganda from Microsoft? That coul dbe a disaster, because then we wouldn't have anything to flame about on slashdot anymore!
Who has more decimal, M$ or linux? Hexadecimal will win in the end.
While this might be a document produced by one of the thousands of MS minions, by no means is this the MS linux strategy document. Anyone who thinks so is incredible foolish.
.net.
The MS linux strategy document is probably 1000 pages and is divided into three huge camps:
1. enterprize server market (.net)
2. deparment server market (win2k server)
3. desktop OS
They are probably closlely looking into the latest desktop linux distros from red hat and ximian and shitting their pants.
They are still trying to figure out how to roll out
They are maintaining share in the department server market, but are aware that the eventual TOC issue is going to hand them their lunch soon.
A company with 40 billion in cash and a 20 billion/year business doesn't write 2 page strategy documents.
Someone you trust is one of us.
The door is open to crush any and all legitimate competition with unfair competitive practices.
The door is open to plunder the common people for the benefits of the wealthy few Microsoft shareholders.
The door is open for abject doom. Indeed, this is not the time to think we have them on the run. This is the time to ponder the horror to come. Who knows what power this unchecked monopolist will wield in a year? Two years? Ten years?
Not good, not good at all.
Stop corporate
While respondents cited OSS's 'low Total Cost of Ownership (TCO)' as one of the best reasons to support OSS, an 'alternative to Microsoft' did not lag far behind. A plurality (40%) of all respondents felt that a low TCO was the best reason to support OSS. One-third of all respondents cited 'an alternative to Microsoft' as one of the best reasons to support OSS.
I think that yearning among home and business users for, quite simply, "an alternative to Microsoft," is one of the strongest cards we have to play. Unfortunately, Linux is only really an alternative in the server markte at the moment. In the desktop market it's still not quite there. And that's where we need to put our efforts.
Woopty Doo Basil, what does it all mean?!
scary piano music in the background...
Deep voice: Just whn you thought it was safe to turn off your computer..
Someone in a Bill Gates mask jumps out from behind the desk and starts chasing the user while brandishing a giant paperclip.
Paperclip: You look like you're being hunted by a madman in a Bill Gates mask. Do you need any help?
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
Viral... hehe..
What a great idea. Anyone want to start a project on SourceForge for an OpenSource Outlook virus?
Why are you using decimal? How are we marketing hexadecimal? Don't geeks hate decimal?
Well, it was all pretty sane up to that point; it's nice to know our opponents are still smoking crack -ESR
I'm sorry, but if I was an IT manager of a corporation and if I was reading this commentary I would assume no credibility to ESR after this comment. Grow Up.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Messages that criticize OSS, Linux, & the GPL are NOT effective. Messaging that discusses possible Linux patent violations, pings the OSS development process for lacking accountability, attempts to call out the 'viral' aspect of the GPL, and the like are only marginally effective in driving unfavorable opinions around OSS, Linux, and the GPL, and in some cases backfire. On the other hand 'positive' OSS, Linux, and GPL messages are very effective - both across geographies and audiences.
(reviewer's comment):
{I've suspected for a while that the anti-Linux, anti-GPL FUD campaign was actually rebounding on Microsoft. This seems to confirm it.}
I think this speaks also to the fact that WE should not be anti-Microsoft, but be pro-OSS. Being positive does a lot more than being negative. I find that this is a challenge for me personally, but I am working on it.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
What? No Finns? How terribly unpatriotic of them!
Roving Web-Teleoperated Robot
Maybe if microsoft drops the leash on stuff like DRM.... sigh. Maybe? =)
there's just no escaping the good gnus.
The high rate of acceptance of Linux in Japan is significant. Be thinking about the implications of that.
What happens if you submit a good kernel patch in Japanese?
Well it uses decimal, so it's probably a fake. Don't they use hexadecimal there? Decimal leads to poverty.
"That's what I like about slashdot: I don't have to think for myself. The editors tell me exactly what I'm supposed to get from the article with their editorial comments they append to every submission..."
Yeah, its outrageous! You dont' get that in the papers..uh, i mean tv...books...radio?
Until someone provides proof, this "leaked document" should be considered a load of crap. Move along please.
The use of decimal indicates that it was an idiot staff member whoever leaked it (only idiots use decimal). Use hexadecimal from now on.
Quoth the report:
The most effective OSS positives focus on TCO and the ability to compete with the United States.
Politically, this is an absolute gift to MS. "OSS is anti-American". Imagine what they can do with that in Congress...
Has anyone posted a version without ESR's self-serving commentary? I'd like to read the whole thing and draw my own conclusions.
According to the article, here are some interesting statistics:
:)
64% say they like Linux because it's "Not Microsoft" -- some obvious discontent!
30% of French, 27% of German, and 23% of Brazilian respondents believe that a Linux solution offers a lower TCO than proprietary software -- obviously, they know about administration costs.
Linux favorability among the Linux familiar was 95% -- looks like it has some diehard fans
93% of Swedes, 84% of the French, and 75% of Germans and said that messages that rely on an abstract discussion of intellectual property rights are effective -- obviously the product of socialism, but it nevertheless shows that open source philosophy may have a chance.
Closing, those who are familiar with OSS and Linux are favorably predisposed towards them. Linking this work with other on-point research, we can assume that in the majority of cases this reported 'favorability' is more emotional than it is rational. Given this context, we should not expect rational arguments focused on undermining support for OSS, Linux and the GPL to perform well. In the short term, then, Microsoft should avoid criticizing OSS and Linux directly, continue to develop and aim to eventually win the TCO argument, and focus on delivering positive Shared Source messages that contain transparent, audience specific proof points.
Excuse me? Because people in Microsoft's survey were supportive of OSS, that means that they were predisposed to like it, and therefore is based on emotion and not rationality?! This doesn't make any sense. What is this trying to say, that people who like OSS are simply using it to make a statement, and not becaue they legitimately prefer it? That is a pretty arrogant assessment of the FACTS if you ask me. I use OSS because I find it to be a better product, for several different practical reasons. And since when is it a rule that you can't be rational AND emotional about something?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
This is more the result of a survey than a strategy document. This reads like something a low-level manager tasked to subcontract out a survey would write. Unlike the original Halloween memo, which was a higher-level document, this is just an internal report.
The high rate of acceptance of Linux in Japan is significant. Be thinking about the implications of that.
What happens if you submit a good kernel patch in Japanese?
Developer: A non-manager. In this survey, a disjoint category from "IT Pro'. Therefore, it probably means anybody with a technical clue.
In fact by 'Developer' Microsoft means: 'person who writes software'. Its really interesting (in a good way) that ESR makes no mental distinction between a user and someone who can contribute, whereas for MS they are totally different categories.
Why are you giving your values in decimal? You're no better than Microsoft. Use hexadecimal if you want geeks to take you seriously.
Evil Genius Bill Gates: We must buy them out for... *pinky in mouth* 100 billion dollars. Muahahahaha!
"Joan of Arc, up top!" - Ghandi, Clone High
All your strategies are belong to us.
(Thanks for leaking another document!)
Well hey, look who it is.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
Seriously folks....this stuff should really be classified under the 'hoax' category. Besides, even if it were true, what is so damn mind-blowing about a company having a strategy against a competitor in the interest of earnings? They are in business to make money, you know.
Watch any documentary about the infancy of the computer world and you'll hear the phrase "killer app" about a billion times. The real goal should be to get to the point where the line between it and Windows is transparent. The fact that Linux is free and more stable obviously isn't a selling point for most computer users, but get to the point where the desktops are just as intuitive, where all the apps people want to use are available in their Linux form and can interact with Windows apps: the basics: Office, AIM, Solitare :), and more importantly the more advanced stuff like Adobe's software, Macromedia, High end audio and sequencing software like eMagic Logic, and Cycling 74's Max/MSP...
Most people that buy a Windows computer with Windows preinstalled aren't going to switch, or at least most will be absolutely intimidated by the idea, so you have to get them when they purchase the computer. Get Linux boxes into stores and available through the channels people buy through online, if somebody is looking at two identical computers that have the same stats, can run the "same" programs, and one of them costs $300 less because it doesn't have to bother with MS, then you have a winner.
The real issue isn't what MS does to combat open source, the only people who understand the arguments about OSS are people already involved. The average computer user just wants something to run Office and get on the web...
sig.
After reading this, I'm surprised that I haven't seen more about the lawsuit risks from the NDAs and IPR restrictions involved in gaining access to 'shared source' if Microsoft interprets your actions as a competitive threat. Has anyone done a more in depth analysis of this?
Would that be Michael Meyers? ... Where's the theme music?
Mike Myers? Theme song? Try here, here, here, and here. Then look here and here.
Will I retire or break 10K?
This is wrong. The leaked document does show that OSS is winning. The same document also shows that Microsoft knows that OSS is winning, and now Microsoft will changes it's strategy, possibly to something far more effective than it has used before.
The author of the article, who I quoted above, is wrong. Now is not the time for OSS to rest on it's laurels. Now that MS has realized it's blunders, you can bet they will be doing something about it. MS ain't stoopid, and they've got lots of money to power any initive they can dream up.
OSS projects should redouble their efforts. The community needs stable, useful technology now more than ever to battle MS with.
No. Geeks hate you.
at least it was writen on a windows machine (all the 's show up as ?s for me)
"To the extent that people read it and gain some insight into what Microsoft is actually thinking about Linux and Open Source Software, it's useful. To the extent that anyone draws a conclusion from this document like "we've got Microsoft on the run", that's just idiotic."
/.; doesn't seem to be needed anymore.
Thanks for clearing that up for us. I suppose we can now just do away with the comments section of
(From m-w.com)
Editor: 1 : someone who edits especially as an occupation
Edit: 1 a : to prepare (as literary material) for publication or public presentation
I suppose it just bothers me when those we expect to be acting at least semi-impartially while in a professional capacity (an editor for instance) decide to arbitrarily prescribe what shall be orthodox in matters of opinion. Editors often add extra information or links (when publishing online) before publishing in addition to the usual typo/spelling-corrections and such, but I suppose I'm just not too thrilled seeing opinions cut down as "idiotic" within the posting of news. To the best of my knowledge, editors are allowed to post in the comments section, and I certainly wouldn't complain about seeing the above statement there, where I believe it belongs.
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
And I quoteth:
#
While respondents cited OSS's 'low Total Cost of Ownership (TCO)' as one of the best reasons to support OSS, an 'alternative to Microsoft' did not lag far behind. A plurality (40%) of all respondents felt that a low TCO was the best reason to support OSS. One-third of all respondents cited 'an alternative to Microsoft' as one of the best reasons to support OSS.
#
Older, wiser, once-bitten, heads will remember the bad old days of IBM. ISTR that the entire OSI comms model was a way to force IBM to stick to a standard. Otherwise, it could have broken the standards (and any competing products) for connecting different systems, by simply changing it's own proprietory standards.
It seems that not everyone wants all their eggs in one MS-basket. If they do have some OSS, they'll at least have something running when MS pulls the pin (or has the pin pulled on them).
Q:I was listening to a CD in Grip and it sounded horrible! What's up? A:Perhaps you are listening to country music
I run all my webservers on linux/php/mysql, but occassionally I get an itch to be different on my desktop, last time it was when XP released SP1 and I was so frustrated at M$ trying to keep me from pirating their software I thought i'd try and say "Fuck em!"
./configure
So I downloaded the new redhat Iso's when they came out, burned them, and wiped my system for redhat. To summarize that last month, let me just say I think having my balls cinched in a vice may be more pleasurable than trying to be productive with linux as a desktop.
Now my system is not some weak POS. It's a p4 with ultra 160, so it's very nice. The first thing I had to do was install the drivers for my nvidia card, oops that don't work, docs don't say anything, read the nvnews forums, oh ok gotta
rpmbuild --rebuild NVIDIA*.src.rpm
Ok it works.
Then it was onto my CDBurner. Again, not crappy hardware, brand spankin new Plextor dvd/cdr. ide-scsi emulator? WTF is that? Ok, I read some more, I know what it is, ok great, it's working.
Repeat process for my bt878 card and firewire.
So at this point, I pretty much had my hardware working as best it could under linux. I started setting out to get some applications going under linux. I needed some audio editing, video editing I started poking around and found some stuff that looks sweet.
tar xfzv reallysweetproggy.tar.gz
**Exit error 2**
you need to install some library.so
So i'd dig around, find the library, then find out that library wanted this library and ect and so on. Some of the stuff i'd click on the page to download it and the page would be gone, making the software I wanted to try useless.
I thought it would be cool to burn some homemmade karaoke VCD's. Previously I had used a screencapture to avi program in windows coupled with powerpoint, or a karaoke plugin with winamp and AVS.
Well, open offices impress sucked dog balls compared to powerpoint, and when it came time to burn a VCD again, the howto was linked to dependancies that returned a 404 instead of what I needed.
So with the help of a friend I gave up on linux on the desktop. Yeah it runs nice, but not nowhere near as good as how windows runs. I can tell a big difference in how UT2003 runs under XP compared to linux, and sorry but the penguin is slow here too.
I hope linux gets over these problems on the desktop, it would be cool if it actually were an freely availiable OS for download, but linux just isn't that right now.
And if you don't believe I use linux, click the link on my sig. All PHP/postnuke/MySQL goodness runnin on linux, not my desktop. For now that's how it has to be.
To the extent that anyone draws a conclusion from this document like "we've got Microsoft on the run", that's just idiotic.
Why, exactly? If genuine (and I expect it probably is, since I can't see any benefit to Microsoft of leaking this), this document highlights what many of us already thought - Microsoft is having a tough time coming up with an effective response to Linux and OSS.
The strategies it suggests (making more noise about Shared Source, trying to win the TCO argument) aren't really hard hitting, but then, what else can MS do? People suggest that it will start using patents and IP law to get heavy with OSS projects, but I doubt it - it's too important for them to improve their image and stop being peceived as the bad guy, because that is why many people are considering OSS and Linux in the first place.
It suggests we're got Microsoft on the run to me, it basically says they recognise Linux/OSS as a strong competitor, and most of their weapons are blunt.
Hey ESR, can you provide the next doc with XML and a couple of stylesheets so I can eliminate your comments? Sometimes they are good, but mostly they are just irritating cheerleading - we are quite capable of drawing our own conclusions thanks.
Then we'll quickly have a nice place in the OSS community for translators! ;-)
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
First off, she was placed - no nevermind. No point in debating the fact that she was not qualified to sit on this case.
Anyway, even if she did care, nothing can be done about it now. It's over. The US has shown its' love for the almighty dollar once more. As asshcroft said - it was a victory for the American consumer.
All one can hope for is that m$ will fall by its' own hand. With substantial world unhappiness this can happen soon. I mean, really, how can poorer countries be expected to shell out >=$75 ever other year for stupid upgrades and fixes? Economically, their business is not sustainable.
Unfortunately, we're gonna have to wait for that to happen - which is the worst! Ugh, waiting...
I really do hope that MS sends there little minions upon Linux. That way it gets evidently clear that they will do anything possible to stifle any competition no matter how small. Linux isnt a threat to Microsoft at the moment at all. Its just a player in the same industry and i dont think that Microsoft is afraid of linux. Im more suspicious that the real fear is if linux succeds in open up he internet and gets some solid standards into place. If i wore to make an OS today i sure would make it POSIX compliant. That way i have thousands of applications at hand from day one.
I really thinks thats what MS is really afraid of. Not linux but lets face it, there are plenty of room for innovation in the OS arena and especially in the GUI field that has almost grinded to a halt. All we have are new colors and fancy addons but the basic principle is ancient in computer time.
A serious new OS needs applications (the barrier to entry) and with POSIX you have instant applications with little work. You dont have to muster developers to start coding if applications from Linux runs on your OS.
Microsoft is afraid for the next step, when someone whips out something new and they are left behind. They have proven that they are totally incapable of inventing anything. The day that someone runs away from them they are doomed because of their complete lack of ingenuity.
HTTP/1.1 400
BillG: memo to self, "Linux sux!"
If thou see a fair woman pay court to her, for thus thou wilt obtain love
Eric Raymond, clearly impressed with his own wit, writes, "BDM Business Development Manager: fancy term for IT salespeople and IT sales managers."
Biz dev and sales are quite different. Think strategy (biz dev) vs tactics (sales). Business development, well, develops new business. New markets, possibly new products, new partnerships. Sales executes, possibly getting into new markets but not on the level of biz dev.
Both 100,000 and 100,000,000 are hexadecimal.
You just can't read hex correctly.
-Terralthra...
Anyone else find it ironic that a guy named michael posted a story about Halloween?
"The meek shall inherit the earth, the rest of us shall go to the stars." Isaac Asimov
Although I like to engage in MSFT bashing as much as the next /.'er ... I must say, I fail to see the problem with a Corporation coming up with a strategy to get more people to use its product? didnt read anything that could be viewed as anti-competitive...Not like the first set of documents anyway.
must... restrain... self... not... post... goat..
Most documents that contain "sensitive" information don't contain the phrase "forward to..." anywhere within the document.
This sounds as fishy as the virus alerts that request they be "forwarded to everyone in your address book."
Ascalante: Your bride is over 3,000 years old.
Kull: She told me she was 19!
... That 35% of the respondents stated they liked Linux/OSS simply because it's "an alternative to Microsoft." That's almost insane. To think that a full third of the people polled said they see it as a viable alternative simply because it is, really, not Microsoft. Lower TCO is one thing. At least there's a solid business case for that. But "not Microsoft"... You think they may have some image problems?
Buy the President
In order for this to be flame bait, it would have to be something that might generate a flame war. In order for there to be a flame war, someone on slashdot would have to defend michael (my flaming my original post), do you see where I'm going with this?
Contrast this with our favourite CEO, who actually advocates competing with Microsoft by promoting use of their software. I think that the Haloween memos show a pretty healthy corporate culture.
Frankly speaking arent linux gui's trying their ass of to appear and work like MSwindows. I mean why cant anyone try to come up with a new concept of a GUI instead of the usual WIMP(Windows Icon Mouse Pointer). I am not critisizing any efforts here and I myself use linux with GNOME as my primary os. The point here is that unless people dont stop imitating M$ on the usability front companies like M$ will only grow stronger. What I feel is that a completely revised GUI and user friendliness model is needed.
Gandhi.
Microsoft, like any other mega-corp, continues to seek ways to increase revenue with increased customer base. The US market hasn't completely dried up (in terms of *new* users), but it isn't the hotbed of growth it was during the early 90's. Newer, more capable, and more stable products, compounded with steady high prices means that people don't feel they have to do a software upgrade of their computer every year or two.
The growth is in foreign markets, primarily in Europe and Southeast Asia. So Microsoft has two goals - continue to maintain marketshare in the US, and increase marketshare in Europe. The problem Microsoft runs into is that many countries are a virtually clean slate, untainted by Best Buys and Wal Marts selling almost entirely Windows software. With Open Source permeating so much of the internet as a "free alternative to Microsoft", Microsoft has to discredit Open Source and convince people that it's worth their Euros and Yen to buy Microsoft stuff. None of this is new, and there is little the Open Source community can do to stop Microsoft from doing whatever it will do anyway, except continue to develop solid, usable technology.
Microsoft is fighting a different kind of battle - the opponent isn't one they can buy out, sue, or place a heavy financial lean on. This is both good and bad for the open source movement. Open source advocates can't be directly targeted by Microsoft, and it provides Microsoft with a moving target. But open source also has no unified body to directly organize a challenge against Microsoft - it all has to be done from the developers up.
None of the stuff in that report should come as a surprise. The problem is that there is no organized entity to act on it. There is no one person who can stand up and mandate that all of Open Source must execute one course of action.
As long as people can continue to develop good technology, use it in practice, scour the web as advocates, and spread the word that people don't *have* to use Microsoft, eventually the undecided parties will get informed about the choice that Microsoft doesn't want them to have.
-AAAWalrus
I thought high end PCs started at 4.77MHz
-- &&
The document reproduced below was presented at a Microsoft internal Linux Strategic Review held at the Microsoft offices in Berlin during Sept.
Bill Gates: Vat iz our plan to deel vit zis Linuchs problem?
MSS employee Blitzkreig, mein führer!! Ve muzt uze ze element of zurprize!
Bill Gates: Ja! Ve schall carpet-bomben Poland with MSN propaganda! Vithin ze veek ve shall have 100% ov ze operatensystem-market!
Steve Ballmer: Vat shall ve do about ze EU? Zat antitruzt kommunist Mario Monti is on us!
Bill Gates: Invade Belgium! Ve must send ze entire firzt unt second division of stürm-FUD!
Steve Ballmer: Ja! Ze tenth armé of developerz vill zen capture Paris vitin hourz! Developerz! Developerz! Developerz!!!
Bill Gates: I zink ve have ze final solution to ze pengvin parazite!
French respondents exhibited a strong anti-Microsoft sentiment as sixty-one percent (61%) stated that 'an alternative to Microsoft' was the most compelling reason to support OSS.
french people? exhibiting a strong anti-anything-not-french sentiment?
oh, you can bet this survey is real!
(snip)
{So they're going to try to beat us up on total cost of ownership! Well, it was all pretty sane up to that point; it's nice to know our opponents are still smoking crack about some key issues.
Whilst Windows will never be cheaper than Linux it could be argued that it can have a lower TCO if you make the assumption that a persons time is worth something.
In other words, if I have to set something up and it takes 4 mouse-clicks under Windows and 2 hours under Linux (extreme I know, but bear with me), then they could claim (rightly so) that their OS has saved my organisation money by making me more productive. Its the whole "Windows is easier!" mantra.
Of course, OSS will catch up, but they want it to always play catch up and then this is another point MS can use in their favour.
I could be totally wrong, but I'm pretty sure that they have a perfectly sensible reason for stating that they could beat TCO. Considering ESR wasn't actually in that review, he has no idea what was discussed or the finer points around it and therefore would be a tad premature to dismiss it as them "smoking crack".
It's not an entirely professional suggestion to make either. Makes him sound like a spotty faced 15 year old.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
I just don't believe this could have been leaked, not with the M$ Prime Directive "security is top priority"...
*places tongue in cheek*
Office account for 60%+ of MS' profit and they are so far up the diminishing return curve that this is where the attack should be. There is a Office 11 beta review today that pretty much says that the user benefits of upgrading is small and more geared at developers and requires total MS on the backend. This is excellent as they are playing right into Open Source's strength: The backend. Foil this and Office 11 will have little to offer over OpenOffice et al.
Help fight continental drift.
the French have moved up a notch in my eyes.
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
Right here!
You're welcome!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
businessmen talk like this all the time.
wake up.
-asb
And the diffrence between decimal 7 and Hex 7 would be???????
I just about shat my pants when I read "Devloperz! Developerz! Developers!!!".
SexyKellyOsbourne, Just have a look at her journal and past posting.
Being positive does a lot more than being negative.
You must not have seen any political ads the past few weeks.
November 5th is not Halloween...it's something else.
:)
What we have is is not Halloween VII, but Bonfire Night I.
Wait, I think he meant octal.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
How dare those monopolist pigs outsmart us by having an operating system (longhorn) which is thousands times better than any Linux distribution!
Assholes!
Try that with Micro$hit, where, after upgrading the OS, you have to shell out $$$$ for software upgrades 'cause your current apps break
A system that is a lot easier for the users to "do it themselves" which pretty much causes the SS and OSS issue to be a moot issue.
Now the Common Language Infrastructure of the ECMA-335 document describes a sum of programming concepts and datatypes integrated in an non-conflicting manner.
Such a thing is very helpful if one is planning on not only developing an auto-coding development environment but something that you would also want shared as far as possible..... before you swoop down and corner the auto-coding market with patented tools.
Hey, I hate linux and I love Microsoft, but that was good, please mod it up, its not really flaimbait (this is slashdot).
of your restraint. Bravo.
Well, it was all pretty sane up to that point; it's nice to know our opponents are still smoking crack -ESR
I'm sorry, but if I was an IT manager of a corporation and if I was reading this commentary I would assume no credibility to ESR after this comment. Grow Up.
I'm sure you would not even raise an eyebrow at the term "pipe dream". Yet of course, that is the very meaning and origin of the term. Smoking opium or crack leads to an irrational overly rosy pipe dream. "smoking crack" is an attmept to update the lexicon in a mildly shocking manner. A bit risque but not rabid.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Now go read this.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Now we've got Microsoft on the run!
The important thing for the Linux community is to prove to the IT managers that Linux has lower TCO
than Windows. After all, having 60, 70, 80 or 90% of the developers favoring Linux doesn't mean a
thing if the management doesn't believe it will pay off.
If Microsoft makes a serious effort to make Windows easy to use, they could theoretically win the TCO fight, or at least beat the penguins. As far as I can tell (at least from what I've seen of XP) they haven't really tried yet. But don't get complacent.
If you want to ensure beating Microsoft on TCO, then quit being smug about the Microsoft's pricetag and EULA. Instead, look at your OSS projects from this point of view: Will deploying this software help a business to justify firing some of their IT staff? It's cool that someone can troubleshoot a user's machine by ssh-ing into it instead of having to go to their office, but the fact that they have to be around to do it at all, means their employer didn't really save money.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
The memo (real or not) makes reference to the best hope Free users have. Foreign countries are more rapidly moving to GNU/Linux (China, Vietname, Germany, France, etc) for economic and political reasons (M$ = U.S. = not exactly winning popularity contests right now). M$ wants to force out free OS's by using proprietary protocols and features that lock you into windows. This is fundamentally flawed because corporations don't want to use protocols that can't be used by millions of people (read customers) around the world. Or at least that's what I tell myself when I think that Bill Gates and Hollywood are about to bust in with search warrants... "Unattended Breakfast, the sweetest taboo of them all" -HJS
http://unmoldable.com W:"No one of consequence" I:"I must know" W:"Get used to disappointment"
If that's not an emotional response I don't know what is. :) Of course, it's also very rational.
This post was generated by a Cadre of Uber Monkeys for Monkey-Man2000 (603495).
as a consultant i am ACTIVELY moving my customers (small businesses and home users) over to GNU/Linux.
how do i do it?
i give every customer a free 1/2 hour of consulting to bring them up to speed on the state of the computer industry. all of my customers love getting the free 1/2 hour. after the talk they feel empowered to make informed decisions about the computing technology upon which they rely.
what do i tell them?
just the same stuff most folks on slashdot already know. some details about Microsoft's focus on customer lock-in. details about long-term computing reliability via the GPL (since most folks have experienced a forced Microsoft upgrade cycle, this is music to their ears). i note that large reputable corporations are switching to GNU/Linux (IBM's seal of approval carries a lot of weight). also, i use simple analogies like Microsoft products being automobiles with the hoods welded shut.
after that 1/2 hour talk my customers usually want to make the switch immediately.
I see 2 things that ESR missed or didn't address and emphasize enough:
IP rights, expect a heavy assault from MS and other organisations interested in IP rights against OSS, if you have code in your app that might infringe on someone elses copyright, or anything else that might be an IP issue, get it outta there now. They're moving from FUD to lawsuits, be prepared.
The self delusion, MS, instead of addressing the issues head on, write around them to make MS come out in a better light. Example: That only a few percent are very positive towards Shared Source should be written in bold red letters, MS should address that, not try to hide it since 2% approval simply means Shared Source will fail. Trying to make yourself come of well in an internal memo is insane and delusional, who's there to pat you on the back? There's no point in using marketing speak when addressing yourself.
That is something that makes me doubt the validity of the document ...
Finally, a suggestion: Don't complain about MicroSoft's flaws, praise Open Source accomplishments and features instead.
Wax-Museum Fire Results In Hundreds Of New Danny DeVito Statues
There is a lot of thought behind the Haloween documents. Many people have worked hard to make the research, to summarize the results and draw the conclusions. A lot of money were thrown for this, A LOT.
So the next time when you wonder why Windows costs so much and is such a peace of garbage, the answer is, because the company that develops it is investing not in making the product better, but in convincing the people that the product is better (FUD) and in looking for ways to force the people to use it (Monopoly).
No alcohol is also not a solution
Survey show Eric Raymond FUD campaign against the GPL and Richard Stallman continues to lose mindshare in industry and beyond.
That is the real story.
Since when does an ABM attitude = irrationality? ;)
Sorry if this post winds up somewhere random, am a first time poster and this site is quite frankly not intuitive. Anyway, question is: web pages with applets are not working- the applets anyway. Is this something MS did. I am using Win98 but have done some product downloads from their site recently. how do I check? I've gone to internet tools, options... and can't see that anything has been disabled. Is it hidden somewhere else? Thanks in advance
put a "</i>" between the paragraphs...
rom: bgates@microsoft.com
To: !Linux Control
CC: FUD, Elmer
Date: Oct. 16, 2002 8:13 am PDT
Subject: Operation Great Pumpkin
OK, boys and girls! We need another document to 'leak' to Eric Raymond. And it better be good this time - some members of the 'open source community' are beginning to suspect.
Elmer - I want a draft in my inbox first thing Monday.
It was submitted by Michael.
Ed Muth admitted that "No. These documents do not represent an official Microsoft position or road map. They are technical analyses written by a staff engineer that represent the thoughts of one individual at one point in time. They were intended to encourage an informed internal discussion of issues by marketing and engineering middle managers." Of course they tried to make it sound as though it didn't really mean anything.
/ /w ww.microsoft.com/ntserver/highlights/editorletter. asp
They have since pulled the press release from their site but Microsoft did admit it was authentic document. I've read it myself from the horse's mouth on Microsoft's site.
Here is the Wayback Machine's archive:
http://web.archive.org/web/19990117031504/http:
Is this proof enough?
astroturf!
(I wish I could get paid to comment on slashdot)
Look, I'm not saying whether this is legit or not because I certainly don't know.
What I WILL tell you with certainty is that Microsoft is not a stupid bunch of fools. They play the games they play VERY well, and their success is ample evidence of that.
With that in mind, exactly how many Halloween memos do we really think would escape Redmond before they decide writing ANY strategy memo around Halloween is a bad idea?
I mean come on... The first one, fine, someone did a stupid thing and it leaked. The second? Ok, they didn't clamp down quite tight enough. But a third and fourth memo? I have serious doubts about the validity of them.
Again, I'm not saying they're bunk, but I'd be leaning that way until BillG himself comes on CNN and does damage control.
If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
I thought it was Halloween VI, got excited and thought they released a special version of VI for the occasion
Which countries on which Microsoft has the
firmest grip? Anyone have any ideas (or even
better, facts?)
My bets for the countries Microsoft has most
completely sewn up (at the Government and
therefore legislative level -- public and
industry opinions would be even more
interesting and probably give an interesting
contrast):
(1) Canada:
So vulnerable to trade sanctions with the US,
Canada GROVELS before all American big
business and corporations, more so than an
other country in the world (even America itself).
(2) USA:
Let's face it. Microsoft has the current
administration in its back pocket.
(3) Great Britian:
Over the past few years the British Government
has seemed perfectly happy to contract out
public services to Microsoft without a seconds
thought. I'm surprised Microsoft isn't buying
British Telecom...
That is what they should do, take some of that leftover code and create an OS that is designed to run on legacy hardware or anything, then make it free. But then they might end up back in court for trying to monopolize the opensource market. BS
But TOWARDS us, swords drawn.. not running away in fear as we would hope..
Be afraid, very afraid of a coporation that has no restraints on its actions.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
We have to fight Microsoft or Linux and all other free software will die. Microsoft has a long history of destroying any competitor and we are their alleged number one competitor.
We need to have a large user base to get
a) Broad public support to thwart any legal attempts by MS to make free software illegal.
b) To get support for common hardware and software.
c) To keep a steady supply of new developers and contributors.
If the way to achieve a large user base is minimizing the costs of switching from MS to free software, then we have to do it. Doing this will not take away the old and tried unix tool chain.
Moritz
Just a little tidbit for you all. PROPER USE OF OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE AT MICROSOFT OSS includes a wide range of products distributed under a variety of licenses such as the General Public License (GPL), Lesser General Public License (LGPL), and Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD) license. If you are uncertain whether software you intend to use is considered "open source", or the license you plan to use will result in the software being treated as OSS, please check with the Microsoft Manager to whom you are assigned. Microsoft's goal with respect to the treatment of OSS is to avoid inadvertently contributing our intellectual property to an open source effort. The rules below are intended to protect valuable Microsoft intellectual property and MUST be followed: 1. Do not incorporate OSS into MS products. 2. Do not contribute code to an open source project. 3. Do not review, modify or distribute OSS source code. 4. Other than OSS source code, it is okay to review other information about open source projects (e.g., architecture descriptions included in books, project descriptions provided at websites, development discussions conducted on the Internet, etc.), provided that you comply with any accompanying licenses or restrictions. If you have questions about the rules governing access to specific information, check with your Microsoft Manager to whom you are assigned. 5. You may run an OSS executable that is subject to the GNU General Public License (GPL) or any similar agreement, so long as the license or agreement does not require you to accept additional restrictions and/or obligations as a condition of running the software. If you have questions or concerns regarding the terms of a particular license or agreement, check with your Microsoft Manager to whom you are assigned. 6. For code that is developed, or otherwise owned by or licensed to MS, do not distribute or otherwise make the code available under an "open source" agreement These rules apply to all activities related to the business of Microsoft, regardless of the time or location of such activities. At times, you and the Microsoft Manager to whom you are assigned may reach the preliminary conclusion that there is a sound business reason for taking an action that is otherwise prohibited by the above general rules. In that event, the Microsoft Manager will check with their LCA contact who will assess any legal risks associated with the action and advise on the steps the Microsoft Manager needs to take to obtain executive approval for the action. An executive approval must be in place in order to deviate from the above rules. If you have any questions or concerns regarding Microsoft's Open Source Software (OSS) guidelines please contact the Microsoft Manager to whom you are assigned or your agency or vendor employer contact.
It would be great if open source operating systems could exist, Windows (and possibly others later) could exist, and each of them attracting those who find the respective operating system most helpful to them.
But that's not entirely possible. Because of the great freedom afforded by the internet for thousands of programmers to create anything, and distribute them, combined with the free architechture of open source operating systems - the applications on these formerly hobbyist-only OS' have been infringing on the markets most prized by propietary software vendors. It can't be helped - people are interested in such applications, so they develop them to use in their favorite open source environment.
In response, companies like Microsoft have been working on legal, finantial, and legislative grounds to hinder or halt many forms software and idea development. After all, they can't just explain to their stockholders that they just can't convince these potential customers to pay for their proprietary software, and that there's nothing special to that they can do to stop that.
So, now open source software needs advocates. Advocates in the legal world, in the finantial world, and in the legislative world if any expectation of free development is to be expected.
These voices don't have to work the same way proprietary software advocates do - they just have to get others to understand why they need the freedom to believe the way they do... because the simple freedom to develop is almost all that is needed for open source software to exist. This is most unlike proprietary software, that needs a certain dollar value, and constant increase over time on top of that for stockholders.
It's unfortunate that advocates are needed, but they are - stories like this show the mindset that forces this need.
Ryan Fenton
If you have that much trouble with simple arithmetic, then I have no choice but to laugh at you...
A small no name politician can get the greatest amount of positive press to the public my egging on some big dumb large name politician with *hit for brains to talk about the no name politician in negative terms..
Don't Tread on OpenSource
Go figure - Like the author of the post who started this debate - I cannot be bothered playing with a text config file or downloading that config file (and/or source plus compiling it). I just want the hardware to work, drivers to install with very little effort. My computer is to do work on; NOT to fiddle with until I can do work on it.
Iain
---- "I would be careful in separating your weirdness, a good quirky quantum weirdness, from the disturbed weirdnes
A lie repeated 1000 times can become mistaken for the truth. It doesn't cease to be a lie just because it's believed.
Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
I dislike negative attacks as much as the next guy and I hope we see less of them and more positive Linux-building comments, but I do believe there is a case to be made that they work better for Open Source advocates.
Almost anyone who has ever used MS products has had at least one nightmarish experience with their products. Many newbies assume these experiences are their fault (especially when they were told such by a lying error message deliberately written to blame it on them). Many people just blame computers when this happens to them. Others carry it as a secret guilt.
When such a person hears an anti-MS rant, it can be a revelation giving them the "right" to question their own assumptions about Microsoft. (Remember: They have been told this is a great company which makes good products.)
If you include a positive Linux message at the end of your rant, you may even make an OSS sale.
Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
As we are politically inclined readers might think we're asking him the wrong questions, perhaps, but we are interested in what connections he sees in Open Source and the world at large (if any) ... and anyway we love politics....
Feel free to point browser at DIGITALAGORA.COM
---- The Open Source Record Label : : LOCARECORDS.COM
Yes, the applications are the real issue. Just not the ones you mentioned. Linux will not be able to eclipse Windows for the clueless, "not supported by an IT department" user for a long time, maybe never.
More important than the apps you mentioned (personal entertainment & productivity) are the *enterprise* applications (boring, but necessary stuff like payroll, inventory, project & resource management, specialized databases, and the like).
These are the kind of applications that are virtually impossible to develop robustly in an open source environment simply because no one is interested in writing this stuff for fun. GUIs are fun. Media players too. Even office suites (if only because the "target" is the evil Microsoft). But enterprise infrastructure applications? How many OSS geeks are just itching to build a replacement for the functionality of PeopleSoft? Or Primavera Project Planner?
This stuff will *never* come for free. The companies who write these applications today do so exclusively for Windows, and they will not port them to Linux unless they see a reason for doing so (ie. customers running Linux on their corporate desktops). Since the apps are not on Linux today, corporations cannot migrate their desktops. The chicken-or-the-egg scenario in practice. (It is for this reason that I support the WINE project (including CodeWeavers). It is an interim step to getting enough seats running a Linux desktop, to convince the app developers to support the platform natively.)
Support in an enterprise environment will make Linux a more "legitimate" OS, and other vendors will follow. I can easily see Adobe getting into porting their graphics apps to Linux if they see Linux on more corporate seats. A native version of Lotus Notes would work nicely as well.
When everyday users start seeing Linux as a usable environment at work, they may be more predisposed to try it at home, as well. But I still firmly believe that unless they have a friendly geek for a neighbour, this will be the "last frontier" for Linux. I won't complain if applications from established vendors start arriving for such home users, but I wouldn't count on it happening soon. Windows is just better suited for the non-techie home user.
Look at the tomato! Isn't it sad? He can't dance! Poor tomato!
Unsubscribe
Oh really? Lessee... Experienced Systems & Network Admin. Moved to Sys & Network Admin. from a Senior Software Design role. Before that: a hardware design role. I've done well, in the eyes of my managers, customers and colleagues, in all of these roles. My pay rate, until the recent slump, has experienced a relatively steady increase over the years.
And I did it all by emotion-driven, seat-of-the-pants decision making? I don't think so. But M$ is free to keep assuming that if it so desires.
I'd be offended were it not for the source of the comment ;).
Sorry, but when I read the phrase, "I follow MS PR closely" I know that a couple of things have happened,
1. The person is too far under the MS FUD influence. Solitary confinment can help this. Weeks or months depending on the severity.
2. Guy needs a hobby real bad. Try golf.
3. Person has truly lost the will to live. Large doses of Zoloft or Prozac may help. But serious medical attention is necessary. Seek medical assistance immediately.
Good luck to you my friend. Remember, there is a way out. Reading Slashdot is just the beginning of a long raod to recovery.
Whether its politics, or business, its all the same. Hell, in this case of Microsoft vs. OSS, it is really a lot of both. Microsoft finds it easier not to make its products better, but to spend lots of money to make the perception of their products better. Microsoft really can't say "our 'this' is better than their 'that', and here's why.." because they really don't offer a better product. Instead they use their incredible monopolistic influence combined with severe mudslinging (FUDslinging?) to remain the most dominant company on earth. It just blows my mind that there exists all this wondeful FREE software (as in both beer and in speech), yet businesses still roll over, sit-up, and beg for Microsoft, just they have the privledge of buying overpriced, inferior products, FROM Microsoft...
"To lead the people, you must walk behind them"
Don't you just love it when suits split hairs over their job titles?
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
- Now, the majority of you will go you "you could've fixed this and that by editing this and changing that and rewriting these 30 lines of code yatta yatta yatta" but who gives a fuck.
- Reply to this, don't mod it down because you don't agree. If you really think you're right, you'll be able to prove it.
No, we won't be able to prove it - not to you at any rate. In the first paragraph quoted above, you declared that you won't listen to reason, although you didn't really phrase it that way.Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
but one strong possibility is that the term has simply fallen out of use both at Microsoft and in their survey population
or, MS didnt want to include the Free Software meme in its Survey (thereby replicating it).
They would like to see Free Software only be Open Source - because they have (some) answers to Open Source.. but none for Free Software.
Well, we actually didn't think you could.
From the article:
;-));
Overall, the greatest challenges we face are with the International audience -- especially the French, Germans, and Japanese.
I would say they will face a pretty strong challenge here, in Brazil. Recently we have elected a new president, Lula, and he was the only candidate to specifically say the words "Software Livre" (Free Software) while on campaing.
Besides, there are many other points:
1) Our strongest organization that promotes free software, Cipsga, was based at a state (Rio Grande do Sul), that had a governor from the same party as Lula (PT);
2) São Paulo (Brazil biggest city) uses Linux a lot on governamental projects. Over 250 "Infocentros" (info-center) are being built or are already done and they run Linux exclusively. São Paulo's mayor (Marta Suplicy) is from the same party as Lula;
3) Connectiva is from Brazil, it's a profitable Linux company that owns a lot of the South American market share. Also, a Conectiva employee, Marcelo Tosatti, is the maintainer of the version 2.4 of the Linux kernel (but we all knew this, right
4) Lately, there has been going a lot of speculation about who will be part of the governament. The top contender for the most important Tech and Science position of the governament, the minister (sp?), is a strong advocate of free software;
Here's an evidence that will put a lot more reason into what I said: One week before winning the elections, favorite in every survey, Lula received an invitation from Bill Gates to go to the USA and have a meeting with him. True! This means uncle Bill already understand the "threat" that Lula represents to his company, and its business model.
On a side note: I have a website called Inércia Sensorial with news about technology here in Brazil, and looking at my referers log, I see a lot of Google searchs that have been increasing lately, associating Lula and the free software dream and fight. Check it out what some people have searched:
Lilus Lula
Mr. Gates and Mr. da Silva (actually, that's a title from an article which I linked at my website)
So, look at Brazil for the next couple years. I am sure a lot of pro-active actions will be taken by our governament.
Buy a Nintendo DS Lite
I found the statistics involving Japan to be rather interesting. While working there over the summer, we were developing some stuff that I could easily get working with Netscape, Mozilla and Opera, but was having much trouble with IE, and my coworkers told me that _nobody_ in Japan used anything other than IE. Well, here's to hoping they were wrong! =)
Even though Microsoft Office is very expensive, I believe it is tougher to launch a good attack against its TCO. I work at a company with 50+ employees which provides mostly web-based services.
Even though I am a big open-source advocate, I can clearly see that Microsoft Office pays for both itself and Windows through increased productivity.
I think the real threat that Linux poses to Windows right now is in the server area. When you compare LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL, and PHP) with Windows, IIS, ASP, and SQL Server, I believe the Linux combination beats Microsoft's products soundly in TCO mainly through security, stability, and cost.
In order to start making a dent in their desktop market, we need a desktop operating system that is easy to install and use! My bets are on the soon-to-be-renamed OpenBeOS project.
---=+=---
"Now if I were a landing thruster, which one of these would I be?"
-- Londo in Babylon 5
Regardless of whether the document is valid or not I did notice one part that I think could be a real issue and most people seem to have overlooked. In a couple places throughout the document there is mention that the respondents would view OSS unfavorably if there was a chance of lawsuits due to copyright or patent infringement. I have to wonder if this could be a real threat to the OSS community as time progresses. With the large number of patents and copyrights that companies such as Microsoft are turning out, it becomes increasingly difficult to develop something that does not already have a patent protecting it. With new technologies like .Net which are controlled by Microsoft and incorporated into Linux distributions, they may be able to "discourage" companies from migrating to Linux or OSS with the threat of lawsuits.
-- Rubberman
jack shit. lolorz
when you shell out $100... you're getting 3 to 4 gigs of applications...
This (file size of distro) is not a good measure of the value provided. (i.e. maybe this distro is just really bloated.)
The focus should be on functionality, ease of use, TCO, quality of documentation, etc.
I agree with the above, more or less. I also use win2k, especially at work - because it makes me more productive. Yes, you heard right. What I do not do is use any MS Office stuff, or matter of factly anything that costs lots of money. There are lots of free programs and when that fails, great and cheap shareware that can do anything I need. Note: That *I* need.
:)
:)
;-)
I do deploy server stuff on Linux, and I find Red Hat comfortable to use as a work station too.
I had no such trouble with RH, I can get the resolution I want, and it did find my Microsoft USB optical mouse which I was very impressed with.
I still feel that win2k is the better OS, since it is extremely stable, fast and easy to use. Unless you want to actually do something complicated a bit deeper - then it is just as hard to find as in Linux.
No real crashes for years, and good uptime. With good uptime, I mean for weeks - that is really good enough for work stations that also do lots of experimental installs, but not for servers.
To me, Linux is great as a Server (would never use MS for that), but it is nowhere close as a Work Station. That doesn't mean it is a bad work station. I think it is a good one - just not nearly *as* good.
Of course, now I will also be called a troll. Sigh. Maybe better not tell people how I feel about Macs.
I would like to respond to your point that it is harder to install Linux than Windows. For most people, installing Windows is a complete no-brainer -- THE COMPANY THAT SOLD THEM THE COMPUTER INSTALLED IT FOR THEM!!!
I installed XP on my own computer, which was working fine with WIN98. It took me a week to find out my mouse driver was causing the keyboard driver to cause a BSOD on shutdown. Of course I asked Microsoft for help, but I ended up solving the problem myself. Every time I install a new piece of software or hardware, I expect to have to spend hours or days getting my computer working again. And my expectations are usually met.
The reason that Windows installations sometimes work better is that the companies selling equipment devote huge amounts of resources to making installation smooth, and still often don't get it right. And, when it doesn't go right - you are left guessing how to fix the problem with no help from Microsoft.
I am extremely annoyed that despite the fact that I could write an operating system, if something goes wrong with Windows, I am reduced to trying things at random like any other dumb user. Since there is no good technical documentation available, and no chance to debug the OS myself, Windows installations better go smoothly because there is no reasonable way to fix problems if it doesn't.
-- Pot is safer than Beer
Your point appears to be:
"It was easier for me to go out and buy a computer preloaded with MS Windows and all my favorite applications than install Linux myself and learn to use it and the various native Linux applications. That's the reason why I was unimpressed with Redhat linux."
That's a fine way of thinking- as far as it goes, which is not very far past your nose.
You're missing so much of the issue. For example: Paladium, the XP activation codes, MS's forced, expensive upgrade cycle, the draconian EULA's attached to security updates, the draconian EULA's that prevent you from using your MS OS on other systems other than the one you bought it with, DRM with closed document/media formats, etc etc etc. How impressed are you with those "features"?
Maybe you're hoping that they will never actually become onerous enough to affect your usage. Good luck.
Here's what The Bible says about people who try Linux and then go back to Window$:
"As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly."
-- Proverbs 26:11
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
" or use something totally far out like this. You have a truckload of flexibility as far as UIs are concerned."
Uhm.. that just looks like any classical window manager which used the background image as the "skin" for its menus, titlebars, and vtbackgrounds (with a small colour change to make it somewhat less unreadable). All the windows I see in it use the exact same icons ([], X, -) that Micrsoft Windows uses, the same toolbar widgets, the same menus, etc. It's pretty (in an "I can't read the damned window titles or do work" kind of way), but otherwise it's exactly the same as IceWM, Wmaker, or Microsoft Windows.
I was really hoping you'd point to a truly different way (like the non-overlapping, always tiled WMs, or the 3D wms) of interacting with the computer. Those are most interesting to me (as a UI designer).
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
I can't comment specifically on sound and video editing, but I've never had any of the dependency problems you mention since switching to Debian at work and Gentoo at home.
I can already hear people saying, "But those aren't particularly user-friendly distributions either," and there is some validity to that; you have to know a bit to set them up. But my point is that we have options, and once they're set up and running a Gentoo or Debian system can be quite friendly to the casual user.
I've flushed an incredible amount of time down the toilet over the past few days playing Tribes II on my Gentoo box (works just spiffy, thanks), and plan to get Unreal set up with my next round of mad money (demo worked flawlessly). I was a Red Hat cheerleader for years, they're still good for a lot, but it's the great boon and curse of any set of flexible, powerful tools that when one approach doesn't work, there are infinitely many more left over to try.
Sorry your experience didn't go so well, yes that still happens far too often, yes Windows is still easier on the initial upswing, but no, this particular at-least-as-lazy-as-the-next-guy user will not be going back to Windows any time soon, because my current setup works a lot better than any Windows box I've used ever has. YMMV.
Your not looking in the right places. I can solve 99% of my Windoze problems with a trip to the Microsoft knowledge base. I have found it to be a very well organized and very useful support system.
You too.
15+25+65=105
I didn't need the calculator.
If the Europeans end up pulling our asses out of the way of the Microsoft juggernaut, we'll no longer be able to toss out "yeah, well we saved your ass in WWII!" at the end of every argument!
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
I have news for you. Microsoft doesn't give a crap about Linux or OS software and whatever insignificant market share they have.
Ballmer: Linux Is Top Threat To Windows
Microsoft acknowledges Linux threat
Ballmer: Microsoft sees the Linux challenge
You mention that "lots of big companies" are starting to deply Linux to the business desktop. Name a few.
Wall Street Embraces Linux
Linux for the Rest of Us
DreamWorks switches to HP, Linux
Secure Linux desktop begins shipping to UK police force
Reminder: find a new sig
"...we can assume that in the majority of cases this favorability is more emotional that rational."
Er, yes it is. I become emotional when *my* computer does what I tell it to and is limited only by *my* imagination and skills, as opposed to an NDA and an EULA. The "free beer" arguments are the icing on the cake, even if that's all that the business types will see.
C|N>K
Unlike the original Vallipolli document, which seemed to address the impact of Linux on MS globally, this document seems clearly to be the work of a narrow faction, trying to convince others at Microsoft to agree with their position. Just as we criticize Mindcraft when they put out an benchmark funded by Microsoft and rigged so that Microsoft wins, this is a summary (and it's only the summary) of a survey crafted to make a particular statement within Microsoft. The survey is unfair and biased, so it's really not that useful either inside MS or to the rest of the world. The survey seems to have been created by a particular group of international market analysts within MS trying to promote their Shared Source initiative as a way of exerting hegemony. A few seconds thought would make it clear that Shared Source is a pretty darn small part of Microsoft's effort -- it seemed almost moribund to me -- and this piece seems like a desparate ploy of the people running Shared Source for continued support.
Nevertheless, it is a fun read. I'd love to see the detailed results, and not just the summaries. I'd love to see the actual questions were asked, too.
thad
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
Why does ESR have to sprinkle so many obscure HTML escape sequences like mdash, ldquo, rdquo, lsquo, and rsquo all over the place?
I hate Microsoft with a passion because they killed a commercial product that I worked on by threatening to add code to Windows to forcibly remove it, but I can still see the irony of ESR making mention of Microsoft's broken-as-usual HTML tools when his own text is riddled with HTML flotsam. Guess we've got different definitions of "broken". (Note my use of ASCII double-quote characters around the word 'broken' there, which I know will show up fine in all browsers that parse it).
French respondents exhibited a strong anti-Microsoft sentiment as sixty-one percent (61%) stated that 'an alternative to Microsoft' was the most compelling reason to support OSS. This sentiment was echoed to a lesser extent among the Germans (37%) and Swedes (35%).
If the French are our best ally in this, we may as well call for the body bags and write letters to our loved ones. That's just the normal anti-american sentiment, not a rally for OSS.
you know Microsoft would really shit their pants if there was an open source project with a really user freindly interface, one that could directly compile oss projects and had major industry support. sorry boys the war is over. hail to the apple baby. its got unix, its oss and its got MS office.
Obviously you are the happiest guy I have
ever met. I, personally own Toshiba TECRA
to run Win2000 and its uptime is very miserable. I have just used it as just web browsing but it crushes very easily
1) when I'm using Mozilla 1.1 or 2) when to resume.
Operation like pushing reload button causes BSOD.
The last thing to say, your uptime can't
go beyond 497days. The bug which prevents
w2k machine from up and running
beyond that date exists.
"Why are we competing with MS on MS's own ground? When did Linux shift from being an alternative to being a clone?"
;)
I'd say that happened when FVWM got a 'theme' that made it look almost exactly like windows 95.
This caused some real confusion on dual boot systems!
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
I see MS as like a large dangerous animal that now perceives that it is in danger of getting cornered by something mysterious that it can not quite comprehend in terms that it understands.... and will soon behave accordingly.
./rant Wait, I think he meant octal. sigh... there's still no difference between decimal 7 and octal 7... decimal 9 vs. octal 9(which is 10) is where you start to see a difference...
5468652047616D65
subject line sez it all.
-1 TROLL
To the extent that people read it and gain some insight into what Microsoft is actually thinking about Linux and Open Source Software, it's useful. To the extent that anyone draws a conclusion from this document like "we've got Microsoft on the run", that's just idiotic.
Hey Michael, why don't you post your editorial opinions in here with the rest of us unwashed masses. Your arrogance is quite amusing...
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
What's the mechanism that enforces all open source licenses? It's copyright. It's the principle - and the legal fact - that when you produce something, you have the time limited right to control how it is copied. Note that you get this right regardless of whether you register it at the Library of Congress or even if you slap a (C) Bob Jones at the end of it. That just makes it easier to enforce your rights not to have it copied without your permission.
Now, what have opensource.org just done here? They've taken content produced and therefore copyrighted by Microsoft (regardless of whether there was a (C) at the end of it), claimed it as their own property (by putting their (C) copyright on the end!) and distributed it.
Pop quiz. If Microsoft took a bunch of your GPL'd code, removed the (C) Bob Jones, replaced it with (C) Bill Gates, and started distributing it, how would you feel?
So why do we apply a different standard to Microsoft? If open source advocates don't respect copyright, why should we expect them to?
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
....for Open Source supporters. That is that Microsoft is clued-up (yes they are folks - they have mastered the art of defensive marketing), and keep a closer eye than you think on what goes on in the Open Source arena. Their "technical" whitepapers (a la those found here, are laughably inaccurate and untrue - from a technical reader's perspective. However, Microsoft dont care about the technical users as much as the non-technical managers with their hands on the corporate purse. It is a testament to Linux/Open Source/the BSD family that they have become so popular with little or no of the traditional marketing methods that MS rely on. So as the original post says, look at what MS say and do, and learn from them. There are a lot of clever people there, marketeers AND developers. Look at what they do well, and better it - isnt that what Open Source is all about?
"If we cannot be free, then at least we can be cheap" -- Frank Zappa
.. ..... ......... ....
yes.
(Damned slashdot filters)
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
"Internationally, a distaste for being dependent on U.S. technology companies in general (and Microsoft in particular) is exploitable."
Translation: Let us (American?) take advantage of THE Anti-America Sentiment and advocate this sentiment. We are businessmen who only care about money!
posted by a non-US citizen/resident.
I know that. That's the joke: going from one base where there's no difference, to another base where there's still no difference.
What's sad is that I knew I'd have to explain the joke, although I had really hoped that I wouldn't have to.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Actually, Oct 9 = Dec 11. Hey, that reminds me of a joke...
You've never heard the word "editorial"? Or the phrase "editorial comment"? Editors have been adding their subjective comments to stories in traditional media since time immemorial.
/. editors.
"Impartiality" is a fad started by the wire services who need to sell their stories to both left and right-wing outlets. Far better to have an editor who is clear about their perspective, like Michael and the other
What you describe above is the job of a sub-editor. And we all know that slashdot doesn't have any subs; if they did, the articles would be devoid of the speling errors that currently lend their charm to this site.
Hypermedia, virtual worlds, human interface, truth, beauty.
Frankly most of these "the installation was hell" stories shows the true choke point of the Windows desktop monopoly.
How many non-PC people can successfully install and configure a Windows PC? Not all that many. How many of us have to keep making house calls to friends and family to fix/rebuild a broken PC? A pretty good amount.
I think the install-issues for Linux should concentrate on the after the initial install world. Adding that digital camera or new printer to the system needs to be quick, easy, and painless. Adding new software should also be relatively newbie proof.
The really interesting thing would be to take a nicely configured Linux box and hand that to a computer newbie. Take another newbie and hand them a nicely configured Windows box. It would be interesting to see how long it would take to notice the difference. (Aside from the lack of an IE icon though we could 'skin' Mozilla to confuse them some.)
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
You list three problems on three separate Linux distros. Did you encounter all of those problems on one distro to or just keep switching until it didn't work?
Just curious as you provide such a variety there.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
Still a few bugs in the system... Someday I have to tell you about Uncle
Nahum from Maine, who spent years trying to cross a jellyfish with a shad
so he could breed boneless shad. His experiment backfired too, and he
wound up with bony jellyfish... which was hardly worth the trouble. There's
very little call for those up there.
-- Allucquere R. "Sandy" Stone
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