"- A: What do you test for? - B: That the code compiles."
Uh huh. Actually what happens is the software is provided to the testers who look for stuff. 0 defects means they can't find anything and all reported defects have been addressed.
I wonder why this is such a difficult concept to grasp? Is the world really that black and white, or is this just another attempt to discredit Microsoft?
Capitalism's gonna save our booties. When oil gets harder to find, prices will rise. When prices rise, demand for petroleum replacements will rise. When demand for oil alternatives rises, the technology will become available and will be quickly adopted.
I'd be worried if:
a.) Oil would suddenly disappear, as opposed to slowly disappearing like what would really happen.
B.) If we didn't have replacement technology more or less ready to go.
" The way it is now, most of us have appliances instead of friends, and that looks like a growing trend."
Growing? I hate to sound like a smart ass, but now we're using appliances to make friends. I know a lot of us here have made good friends via the internet. I certainly have. It's not like 10 years ago when it was being a couch potato doing nothing but watching TV.
"considering the human race is on the edge of an energy crisis of significant proportion... the likelyhood of significant, independant robotic use will be left to a select few and likely developed for military use."
There are solutions to the 'energy crisis' that we are 'on the edge of'. We've got the options, just nobody wants to fit the bill to switch over.
"G was supposed to become the new standard, and I am rarely in a situation where my Powerbook picks up a G signal."
G recently became rather affordable. Just a few days ago I bought a wireless router using G. It was only $10 more expensive than B. I figured what the hell?
I doubt you'll find G at public places, though. Little need for it since it isn't so popular to do transfers that require the megabits range.
"So yes - a brand of engineering that says "no defects" to mean "no identified bugs" rather than "no bugs" is being weaselly and covering your ass with management"
Covering your ass? You cannot prove that a bug doesn't exist. Because of that, you simply cannot say you have squashed every bug. It is not possible. All you can do is say "no identified bugs."
"You've carefully ignored the second paragraph of that post, and I emphasized it for you.:P"
I did not ignore it, my response covered it.
"A number of other posters have said that bugs and defects are the same, too, so you have not convinced me they are different."
Dunno what to tell you. I used to work in QA. The differences were quite clear. I'm not making this up in order to fillyou full of shit. I'm not trying to play some practical joke on you. Rather, I gained quite an education and I am sharing it with you from somebody who was an important person at IBM.
Your call, I don't care. Just remember, the 'doublespeak' argument isn't holding up at all. No motive.
"So which is it? Are you right, or is Webster full of shit?"
There is no contradiction here.
"Bug: (4b) a defect in the code or routine of a program."
There are defects in software that have nothing to do with the code or the 'routine' of a program. That is probably why the term 'defect' is used in place of bug. It is more general.
"Sounds to me like your brand of 'engineer' excels most at covering his ass with management."
I posted this in another comment, but I wanted to make sure this particular person saw this Wikipedia entry.
Go read the bit about software bugs. You will not only find out that there is a difference between defects and bugs, but also that there is no doublespeak happening here.
" When you redefine words to mean things other than what they have meant for many years"
They're not being redefined. I did not invent these terms, nor did the people I worked with. This goes back years and years. The problem is not that new terms were invented, it's that the term 'bug' is way too widely used thanks to the internet. You'd call a typo in the about box a bug?
" Repeatedly asserting that it means something that it normally doesn't to 95% of the English-speaking population will not change that."
The MS dude was not talking to 95% of the popluation, he was talking to a fraction of 1%. Frankly, any occupation uses terms more specifically than the average Joe. To a web developer, there is a difference between scripting and programming. To a 3D artist, creating imagery is not drawing. To a comic book inker (I forget the name of the profession), inking is not the same as tracing. And so on.
Don't believe me? Fine. Go look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defect
There's an interesting little line there:
"in software engineering, the non-conformance of software to its requirements, often, but incorrectly, called bug." I suggest you follow the 'bug' link on that page, read it very carefully, and then think about something: Either Wikipedia is wrong, or YOU are.
"Wow, your use of the language is almost as much fun as Microsoft's. Bugs, defects, software issues?... We're talking semantics here, not methodology, because Microsoft is a marketing company, not a software company."
Microsoft isn't 'marketing' here. It's one engineer talking to an audience other engineers. He is using the proper terminology (bugs, defects, issues) to describe what's going on here, just like the QA people do in just about every software company.
You're confused because you don't understand the nuances of the terms used. That's okay, I wouldn't have either before I worked in QA. That doesn't mean that MS is intentionally trying to confuse you. It only means that you need to be a little more open minded. I'm not saying this to be a jerk, but rather because you're attacking everybody's rebuttal instead of understanding that there really is a difference between the terms.
Here is how I understand the terms. I may have them a little off, so correction is appreciated. My work in that department was informal at best.
Bug == The code was just plain written wrong. 2+2=5. Sometimes this term was used to describe unexplained behaviour.
Software issue == The software does exactly how it is designed, but it creates an unexpected problem. "Automatic update auto-installs Windows updates every single evening. This is great! Unfortunately, some of them require a reboot, and the user either has to live with the imminent reboot or not getting the updates eveyr night."
Defect == Problem that has been reported. "Defect #32516: There is a typo in the about box, Windows was spelled with an L."
"Yep, Microsoft double-speak in action. Here's another great example, "Zero defects does not mean that the product does not have bugs" Well, to the rest of the world it bloody well does!"
In a QA sense, a defect is a problem that is found as opposed to a defect that exists. For example: If Clippy doesn't give the right response to the word "Hamdingers", but nobody tests for use of the word "Hamdingers", then a bug exists but not a defect. It is not a defect because it hasn't been reported. He meant that all the tests are passed, not that all bugs are found. (He did explain this, btw.) This is not double-speak.
Somehow I doubt this particular topic would have come up if Linus had been speaking.
"Deja vu. I swear you said the exact same thing about a book reviewer a few months back.'
Heh yep. That was me. Only in that case, somebody saw the 'referrer=sr' in an Amazon link and went on a bloody stink about how he was making money off it. Turns out, 'referrer=sr' meant "this was found via the search engine. Heh.
Sorry folks, nothing insightful to share about the article. But I do have an interesting bit of info about the Hitchhiker's Guide TV series. There's a scene at the restaraunt where they serve a live talking pig to Arthur and company. That pig is played by... Peter Davison? As in, the fifth regeneration of Doctor Who. I don't know how common knowledge that is, but I was stunned to see his name in the credits. You wouldn't know it was him in the pig suit.
This is 100% off-topic. I did a Google search for VoIP on a PocketPC and found a slashdot comment you made back in April:
I'd like to have a USB sound card so that I could isolate the audio from the electromagnetically noisy computer, however. Any ideas?
Just wanted to mention that Creative Labs has a card called the "Exitgy" that I can recommend. It's external, USB, and well reviewed for sound quality going both in and out. The reviewers particularly liked that it didn't pick up noise from the internals of the machine.
I guess I'm way too late in responding, but I figured what the hell.;)
" and phones will be phased out completely, to be replaced by web addresses."
Kinda funny that this article came up when it did. Just a couple of days ago I was looking for a cheap PocketPC/Palm that had built in wireless so I could use it for messaging at home and at work. I have fond hopes that it'll do voice chat one day.
To date, I haven't exactly phased out my phone. On the other hand, I rarely use it instead of ICQ or email to chat with my friends.
Slashdot Mirror
"All Kwik-E-Mart employees must be skilled in the deadly arts. ;)"
Well since we're being non-PC and stereotypical...
"So, did they lengthen the unmasking scene? Turbans do take a while to unwrap..."
They're outsourcing our super heroes to India too?
"Nasa: For the last time, will you please stop looking at the nude beaches on Earth and instead look at Pulsar 19834"
Oh... I get it!! Whatever God wants, he keeps!! HA HA ha ha ha ha ha haha...
Priority Override. New behaviour dictated. Must break target down into component molecules.
"- A: What do you test for?
- B: That the code compiles."
Uh huh. Actually what happens is the software is provided to the testers who look for stuff. 0 defects means they can't find anything and all reported defects have been addressed.
I wonder why this is such a difficult concept to grasp? Is the world really that black and white, or is this just another attempt to discredit Microsoft?
Capitalism's gonna save our booties. When oil gets harder to find, prices will rise. When prices rise, demand for petroleum replacements will rise. When demand for oil alternatives rises, the technology will become available and will be quickly adopted.
I'd be worried if:
a.) Oil would suddenly disappear, as opposed to slowly disappearing like what would really happen.
B.) If we didn't have replacement technology more or less ready to go.
" The way it is now, most of us have appliances instead of friends, and that looks like a growing trend."
Growing? I hate to sound like a smart ass, but now we're using appliances to make friends. I know a lot of us here have made good friends via the internet. I certainly have. It's not like 10 years ago when it was being a couch potato doing nothing but watching TV.
"considering the human race is on the edge of an energy crisis of significant proportion... the likelyhood of significant, independant robotic use will be left to a select few and likely developed for military use."
There are solutions to the 'energy crisis' that we are 'on the edge of'. We've got the options, just nobody wants to fit the bill to switch over.
In short, the lights aren't going out.
"G was supposed to become the new standard, and I am rarely in a situation where my Powerbook picks up a G signal."
G recently became rather affordable. Just a few days ago I bought a wireless router using G. It was only $10 more expensive than B. I figured what the hell?
I doubt you'll find G at public places, though. Little need for it since it isn't so popular to do transfers that require the megabits range.
"So yes - a brand of engineering that says "no defects" to mean "no identified bugs" rather than "no bugs" is being weaselly and covering your ass with management"
Covering your ass? You cannot prove that a bug doesn't exist. Because of that, you simply cannot say you have squashed every bug. It is not possible. All you can do is say "no identified bugs."
"You've carefully ignored the second paragraph of that post, and I emphasized it for you. :P"
I did not ignore it, my response covered it.
"A number of other posters have said that bugs and defects are the same, too, so you have not convinced me they are different."
Dunno what to tell you. I used to work in QA. The differences were quite clear. I'm not making this up in order to fillyou full of shit. I'm not trying to play some practical joke on you. Rather, I gained quite an education and I am sharing it with you from somebody who was an important person at IBM.
Your call, I don't care. Just remember, the 'doublespeak' argument isn't holding up at all. No motive.
"A computer bug is an error, flaw, mistake or fault in a computer program which prevents it from working correctly."
Programs can work correctly and still have defects. Once you understand that, that whole statement he made will come into sharp focus.
"So which is it? Are you right, or is Webster full of shit?"
There is no contradiction here.
"Bug: (4b) a defect in the code or routine of a program."
There are defects in software that have nothing to do with the code or the 'routine' of a program. That is probably why the term 'defect' is used in place of bug. It is more general.
"Sounds to me like your brand of 'engineer' excels most at covering his ass with management."
Using more precise terms is bad? Okay....
I posted this in another comment, but I wanted to make sure this particular person saw this Wikipedia entry.
Go read the bit about software bugs. You will not only find out that there is a difference between defects and bugs, but also that there is no doublespeak happening here.
" When you redefine words to mean things other than what they have meant for many years"
They're not being redefined. I did not invent these terms, nor did the people I worked with. This goes back years and years. The problem is not that new terms were invented, it's that the term 'bug' is way too widely used thanks to the internet. You'd call a typo in the about box a bug?
" Repeatedly asserting that it means something that it normally doesn't to 95% of the English-speaking population will not change that."
The MS dude was not talking to 95% of the popluation, he was talking to a fraction of 1%. Frankly, any occupation uses terms more specifically than the average Joe. To a web developer, there is a difference between scripting and programming. To a 3D artist, creating imagery is not drawing. To a comic book inker (I forget the name of the profession), inking is not the same as tracing. And so on.
Don't believe me? Fine. Go look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defect
There's an interesting little line there:
"in software engineering, the non-conformance of software to its requirements, often, but incorrectly, called bug." I suggest you follow the 'bug' link on that page, read it very carefully, and then think about something: Either Wikipedia is wrong, or YOU are.
"Wow, your use of the language is almost as much fun as Microsoft's. Bugs, defects, software issues? ... We're talking semantics here, not methodology, because Microsoft is a marketing company, not a software company."
Microsoft isn't 'marketing' here. It's one engineer talking to an audience other engineers. He is using the proper terminology (bugs, defects, issues) to describe what's going on here, just like the QA people do in just about every software company.
You're confused because you don't understand the nuances of the terms used. That's okay, I wouldn't have either before I worked in QA. That doesn't mean that MS is intentionally trying to confuse you. It only means that you need to be a little more open minded. I'm not saying this to be a jerk, but rather because you're attacking everybody's rebuttal instead of understanding that there really is a difference between the terms.
Here is how I understand the terms. I may have them a little off, so correction is appreciated. My work in that department was informal at best.
Bug == The code was just plain written wrong. 2+2=5. Sometimes this term was used to describe unexplained behaviour.
Software issue == The software does exactly how it is designed, but it creates an unexpected problem. "Automatic update auto-installs Windows updates every single evening. This is great! Unfortunately, some of them require a reboot, and the user either has to live with the imminent reboot or not getting the updates eveyr night."
Defect == Problem that has been reported. "Defect #32516: There is a typo in the about box, Windows was spelled with an L."
Yep, 3 distinct terms.
"Yep, Microsoft double-speak in action. Here's another great example, "Zero defects does not mean that the product does not have bugs" Well, to the rest of the world it bloody well does!"
In a QA sense, a defect is a problem that is found as opposed to a defect that exists. For example: If Clippy doesn't give the right response to the word "Hamdingers", but nobody tests for use of the word "Hamdingers", then a bug exists but not a defect. It is not a defect because it hasn't been reported. He meant that all the tests are passed, not that all bugs are found. (He did explain this, btw.) This is not double-speak.
Somehow I doubt this particular topic would have come up if Linus had been speaking.
"Buying pre-paid cards may be nice, but that seems like a better business for 7-11, Starbucks or supermarkets."
Thought you might find it interesting that Best Buy sells Napster branded MP3 players.
... who else in the PC world is stunned that the history of Mac gaming was longer than one page? Heh.
"Deja vu. I swear you said the exact same thing about a book reviewer a few months back.'
Heh yep. That was me. Only in that case, somebody saw the 'referrer=sr' in an Amazon link and went on a bloody stink about how he was making money off it. Turns out, 'referrer=sr' meant "this was found via the search engine. Heh.
"Submitter is getting points for every slashdot clickthru."
So? He's the reason we know about it. Let him have the reward.
Sorry folks, nothing insightful to share about the article. But I do have an interesting bit of info about the Hitchhiker's Guide TV series. There's a scene at the restaraunt where they serve a live talking pig to Arthur and company. That pig is played by... Peter Davison? As in, the fifth regeneration of Doctor Who. I don't know how common knowledge that is, but I was stunned to see his name in the credits. You wouldn't know it was him in the pig suit.
"You just have to send them a picture of somewhere on Earth that deserves to be spared from the Vogons"
Well they're getting a photo of my house. Screw the rest of ya'all.
Hey man,
;)
This is 100% off-topic. I did a Google search for VoIP on a PocketPC and found a slashdot comment you made back in April:
I'd like to have a USB sound card so that I could isolate the audio from the electromagnetically noisy computer, however. Any ideas?
Just wanted to mention that Creative Labs has a card called the "Exitgy" that I can recommend. It's external, USB, and well reviewed for sound quality going both in and out. The reviewers particularly liked that it didn't pick up noise from the internals of the machine.
I guess I'm way too late in responding, but I figured what the hell.
" and phones will be phased out completely, to be replaced by web addresses."
Kinda funny that this article came up when it did. Just a couple of days ago I was looking for a cheap PocketPC/Palm that had built in wireless so I could use it for messaging at home and at work. I have fond hopes that it'll do voice chat one day.
To date, I haven't exactly phased out my phone. On the other hand, I rarely use it instead of ICQ or email to chat with my friends.