Well Debian has more no doubt about it, they've been at the apt game for years. But on fedora do yum list "*" |wc -l
I had about 1,800 packages and as any fedora user knows about 10 new ones have been added each day since its release. So it _COULD_ catch up to debians 3,000 packages couldn't it? Its only been a few weeks, give it some time.
I find that hard to believe. They have a fixed cost to churn out patches and test them. The only cost that would scale up is bandwidth with more clients subscribing.
They were already the single largest bandwith user on the east coast, would you like them to shoot for largest on the planet? And btw, nobody was buying except of course everyone on slashdot who bashes redhat, they were all good summaritans who payed $60 a year for something they could get for free. but 97% of everyone else just sucked bandwith
If what you say is true and it was working for them and making them money, Mind explaining to me why a BUSINESS doesn't want money?
must say, I am floored. If RedHat's view of reasonable differs from its customer's view of reasonable (which it obviously does), then this is going to be a disaster.
I want a $2 steak from red lobster, reasonable? damn them! what do you mean I can't choose my own prise what kinda business is this!
Now getting the Espon C82 printer to print photos with any sort of colour fidelity was a weekend of build-CUPS-from-scratch HELL - but the camera was a no-brainer.
now even more irony my HP psc 2210 ALL in one printer was fun. I have a duel boot RH 9/XP box and kept rebooting cause Windows needs that for drivers, and I couldn't get it to work some icon just kept poping up saying hardware found but it was empty so on the 6-9th reboot I accedently hit RH9 and guess what I see? Kudzu knew my exact model and worked like a dream ever since..
for those lookng for an ending, my XP still doesn't work w/ the printer and I've only used it on RH 9 for the last 6 months heh.
Everyone has thier own stories I guess but what I think is going on is RH is downplaying the desktop to avoid the enormous support costs of "can you help me configure outlook on RH 9, I can't find it". But one day, probably in the next two years RH will make thier move with a gnome 2.8 and kde 3.6. Linux will get there but lets not get ppl to hate linux now so they don't try it later when we really _are_ ready for everyone.
I don't agree. For one I've used Redhat almost exclusivly since '97ish. And beleive it or not I can actually use make, set flags, and link directorys too.
Your programming analogy is flawed aswell cause the difference between any distro is not the same as different languages. Its more like someone who uses glade can't write a CLI tool. You don't use redhat so I'm assuming you think RH has a GUI tool for everytask but thier config tools are really left wanting, you need to dive into.config files for everything except the very basics. for instance the redhat-config-securitylevel just turns the firewall on or off. But I still know how to flush rulesets or where in init.d/ iptables is located. A GUI doesn't automatically mean you're an idiot. linux is basically the same under all the eye candy same syntaxes, same software except the distro specific package managers. big deal, give me 30 minutes and i'll know just as much about apt-get as you do. Actually I take that back since I use apt-get on redhat I don't need 30 minutes.
> And if you actually want to learn something from using Linux, none of the commercial distros are the way to go.
I thought the point of a student was to get skills for the _real world_ ? More businesses roll out RH linux then they do LFS or gentoo. So why is the oppisite the way to go? politics? Sorry, I don't buy that. Redhat has high class certifications available, is the largest deployed distro and that makes it more inviting to most of us students.
> I am seriously considering going 100% Slackware if Fedora turns into a seriously uncompatable fork - compared to other stable distributions.
I am running Fedora and wanted XFCE4. But because It's so new there were only Redhat 9 RPM's available. so I downloaded all 24 rpm's into a directory and did 'rpm -Uvh *'. They all worked without a hitch, I've been running it for a week or so. It appears that it will be the same as a new point release. Some stuff breaks, most of it still works.
Redhat has received a fair amount of bad press due to trivial things like your (paraphrased) "It's not ready for the desktop" comment. It appears the Linux community gets nervous whenever someone is seen as #1 in sales or marketshare, making people lash out at the slightest thing to keep the company from running away with too much power. My question is how can Redhat or any Linux vender retain a number one spot when they are held to a much higher standard then the competition when innovation can just be copied line by line?
They might not encourage the Idea but I don't see how they would care. This new 'copy' would have to pickup the slack in support, bandwith. What business in thier right mind trusts thier business on software patched, updated and written by a guy referred to as "Someone"? Not me! And if your goal is a desktop for home users, who wants a slow stable (boring) OS at home? Not most of us. We want exciting new things consistantly. Everytime redhat had a new release routers were being burned out in some places of the world because of so much traffic (seriously) so that says we are eager for the latest and greates which is why Fedora is created. Its what we asked for.
Agreed.
I think the FUD is because Redhat is/was #1 in linux share and now
that they've forked, alot of zealots from see
an oppertunity to convert ppl to thier reli..err disro.
Take a look at _every_ post that bashes redhat (or any distro for that matter)
and you will see a distro plug right in the middle of it (or all over it).
I used RH for years and never really cared who ran what unless they
expected me to help them often, then and only then would I reccomend redhat. Otherwise its all about preference!
I really, really wish we could standardize atleast to begin with. Web admins can't even write a webpage for more then one browser and we expect every
developer to intergrate software for 20 distros, 20 browsers, etc? its insane!
Fragmentation isn't just in the file hierarchy or KDE, Gnome its EVERYTHING. Open your favorite e-mail client and look at all the browser options for opening links
mozilla -remote 'openURL(%s, new-window)'
netscape -remote 'openURL(%s, new-win)'
netscape '%s'
gnome-moz-remote --newwin '%s'
kterm -e w3m '%s'
kterm -e lynx '%s'
Now my point isn't the sevral apps, that is fine, but everything has
its own format for tabs, new win, switches, etc. This is just like most
things in UNIX & free software. Everyone thinks they know best or maybe
there was just nothing to point to during development and say "Do it like this".
I haven't used KDE in years so I can't speak of thier project but I've seen
what the HIG has done for Gnome. PPL now have something to point to during
development resulting in a professional feel and gets the hell out of my way!
If we standardize on user application formats nobody would care if we used
mozillafirebird, mozilla, epiphany, konq or opera cause they'd all handle
input/output the same exact way and it wouldn't break other applications
compatibility.
oops, this was suppose to be short.
You're right, some ppl are leaving RH but if you were on the fedora lists, alot of PPL are MOVING to fedora. They give credentials, experience what distro's they previously did work for (mostly mandrake/suse) and what they'd like to contribute. so it may even out. reguardless of what anon cowards on slashdot say. Having a quality distro like RH opening up the code to everyone is a pretty big insentive for some people.
I would bet that Novell/Suse arent going to piss off all the developers like Red Hat has done.
Sure they will, once the community seems them being the most successfull we will shoot them down just like Redhat. RH has made some mistakes but nothing close to the M$ tag idiots throw at them. We hat thier success and the fact they're an American company. Don't beleive me? Read the 400 posts for this article, its obvious.
Now what company was it yesterday you all called a sellout? I forget. I thought it was Redhat. Now who are you guys going to turn to when Novell turns SuSe into a half closed half open business hybred? They will have lots of locked down protocols going in this new product i'll betcha.
It might be time for all of you to jump back on RH's bandwagon after you realize they're the only ones you cant buy out.
forgive my pessimism, I should give Novell a shot but they appear to be a company evolving to stay alive in the free software movement, but is thier goal a GPL world while making money, or trying to make money in a GPL world? Personally i think redhat is the former, Novell the latter.
I'm glad I'm not the only one
I find it humorous a distro with tons of propriatary software and a fraction of upstream controbutions is suppose to be our protection from this evil (Redhat) monoply.
I too like the competition, Redhat has been enormously generous so far but who's to say they won't have too much power in 10+ years?
what is starting to make me nervous is SuSe tries to be Europe's linux. Linux is suppose to bring us together not divide us. What happens when flamewars stop being, "SuSe sucks" and starts to become "germany sucks" or a political problem instead of a technical one. If we can't trust an Open source company (RH) just because they're the leader, will we _EVER_ win anything? we'll always be toppeling the best technology not from merrit but because #1 is evil.
I could go on for pages about what RH has contributed but it can be summed up easily. All Redhat (or any distro) has is its name, once the company's actions come into question its TOAST. So how could anyone, ever become a monopoly. Redhat has the most users because of its enormous controbutions to OSS. so I find it humorous a distro with tons of propriatary software and a fraction of upstream controbutions is suppose to be our protection from this evil monoply.
$100 per server huh?
wouldn't you rather pay $179 and install it on 500 servers?
I'm sure smart edu guys can figure out how to make thier own updates server and download updates from thier $179 account.
What I think is going on right now is there are massive changes happening to GNU/linux in general.
The market is dictating linux's direction. why is that bad? people are demanding gnome 2.4, 2.6 kernel, etc. but sooner or later 'must upgrade' features will die down.
Let's be honest in the last year its just now hitting main stream and is racing to catch up to It's critizms but because of this rapid development main stream feature goals will be reached fairly quickly. like intergration, compatibility, and quality applications.
With the future in mind alot of projects underwent major overhauls for this reason but they're getting stable, when they do its going to be prime time for products like RH workstation or debian stable since they're nearly the same thng but with longer support cycles. for instance i don't care about not having a perfect file dialog box for gnome so why upgrade? but I DO want yum and kernel 2.6 integrated so when those features are in the RH stable i'm buying it and saying with it till my 1-3 years support is up.
Unfortunately what needs improvement is the GUIs of the programs, not the desktop itself. Even the best desktop is no use if 2/3 of programs have awful GUI or are commandline only
Read the developer and HIG guidelines HERE
I think the direction they're going as far as GUI is excellent. look how nice things are now since RH did thier GUI crackdown last year.
1.) Applying the patch
2.) Using *any* software firewall. Even WinXP's own firewall. ZoneAlarm is trash in my opinion. But it isn't your only protection.
3.) Using a hardware firewall which blocks the RPC port anyway
and show, among other interesting facts, that RH has $307m in cash in the bank, which is more than enough to pay for the lawyers to fend off SCO.
I don't agree, RH has more money sure, but SCO has nothing to lose, they are done, they know it. thats why all this started in the first place. RH is suppose to be a company of the future, how do they do that if they spend all thier money on a legal battle? while sco can just keep doing stock pumps and lobbying for cash to big corps?
Some things I'm about to say might be alittle harsh but Slashdot needs to take its medicine.
First does anyone remember when Redhat9 came out, a huge selling point for them was that you could beat the rush and get RH 9 a week early if you signed up for support? An aweful lot of people signed up for that (including myself) . so many infact it ended up killing thier servers speed to something around 5k. But guess what. Slashdot posted bit torrent within the first hour happy to offer non paying customers a better solution. So how many people will be buying support this time around do you think? Not as many I'll bet.
If Slashdot is always talking about morals and doing whats right with everything from patents to software. Why can't they allow a company that has argueably did more or atleast as much for linux then any other single company to earn a buck for just one week? Thats all folks. It's time we start showing as a community that we're not just a bunch of freeloaders, anarchists & hypocrites.
How does one willingly pay $25,250,000, without trial, and not admit to wrong doing? An admittance of guilt is suggested under such circumstances.
Well, not exactly. To most companys 23 million is worth fighting for, but for M$ 20 million is lunch money. If I owned the company I'd rather fork over $100 million then allow other OS's to come pre-installed, everyone knows its already becomming thier only shot at survival. (lockins)
Slashdot Mirror
Well Debian has more no doubt about it, they've been at the apt game for years. But on fedora do yum list "*" |wc -l I had about 1,800 packages and as any fedora user knows about 10 new ones have been added each day since its release. So it _COULD_ catch up to debians 3,000 packages couldn't it? Its only been a few weeks, give it some time.
I find that hard to believe. They have a fixed cost to churn out patches and test them. The only cost that would scale up is bandwidth with more clients subscribing.
They were already the single largest bandwith user on the east coast, would you like them to shoot for largest on the planet? And btw, nobody was buying except of course everyone on slashdot who bashes redhat, they were all good summaritans who payed $60 a year for something they could get for free. but 97% of everyone else just sucked bandwith
If what you say is true and it was working for them and making them money, Mind explaining to me why a BUSINESS doesn't want money?
must say, I am floored. If RedHat's view of reasonable differs from its customer's view of reasonable (which it obviously does), then this is going to be a disaster.
I want a $2 steak from red lobster, reasonable? damn them! what do you mean I can't choose my own prise what kinda business is this!
Now getting the Espon C82 printer to print photos with any sort of colour fidelity was a weekend of build-CUPS-from-scratch HELL - but the camera was a no-brainer.
now even more irony my HP psc 2210 ALL in one printer was fun. I have a duel boot RH 9/XP box and kept rebooting cause Windows needs that for drivers, and I couldn't get it to work some icon just kept poping up saying hardware found but it was empty so on the 6-9th reboot I accedently hit RH9 and guess what I see? Kudzu knew my exact model and worked like a dream ever since..
for those lookng for an ending, my XP still doesn't work w/ the printer and I've only used it on RH 9 for the last 6 months heh.
Everyone has thier own stories I guess but what I think is going on is RH is downplaying the desktop to avoid the enormous support costs of "can you help me configure outlook on RH 9, I can't find it". But one day, probably in the next two years RH will make thier move with a gnome 2.8 and kde 3.6. Linux will get there but lets not get ppl to hate linux now so they don't try it later when we really _are_ ready for everyone.
Why is this the second +5 I've seen talking about no education deals, maybe Matthew Szulik assumed slashdot readers pay attention to slashdot news.
He must not be aware nobody here can RTFA.
I don't agree. For one I've used Redhat almost exclusivly since '97ish. And beleive it or not I can actually use make, set flags, and link directorys too. Your programming analogy is flawed aswell cause the difference between any distro is not the same as different languages. Its more like someone who uses glade can't write a CLI tool. You don't use redhat so I'm assuming you think RH has a GUI tool for everytask but thier config tools are really left wanting, you need to dive into .config files for everything except the very basics. for instance the redhat-config-securitylevel just turns the firewall on or off. But I still know how to flush rulesets or where in init.d/ iptables is located. A GUI doesn't automatically mean you're an idiot. linux is basically the same under all the eye candy same syntaxes, same software except the distro specific package managers. big deal, give me 30 minutes and i'll know just as much about apt-get as you do. Actually I take that back since I use apt-get on redhat I don't need 30 minutes.
> And if you actually want to learn something from using Linux, none of the commercial distros are the way to go.
I thought the point of a student was to get skills for the _real world_ ? More businesses roll out RH linux then they do LFS or gentoo. So why is the oppisite the way to go? politics? Sorry, I don't buy that. Redhat has high class certifications available, is the largest deployed distro and that makes it more inviting to most of us students.
> I am seriously considering going 100% Slackware if Fedora turns into a seriously uncompatable fork - compared to other stable distributions.
I am running Fedora and wanted XFCE4. But because It's so new there were only Redhat 9 RPM's available. so I downloaded all 24 rpm's into a directory and did 'rpm -Uvh *'. They all worked without a hitch, I've been running it for a week or so. It appears that it will be the same as a new point release. Some stuff breaks, most of it still works.
Redhat has received a fair amount of bad press due to trivial things like your (paraphrased) "It's not ready for the desktop" comment. It appears the Linux community gets nervous whenever someone is seen as #1 in sales or marketshare, making people lash out at the slightest thing to keep the company from running away with too much power. My question is how can Redhat or any Linux vender retain a number one spot when they are held to a much higher standard then the competition when innovation can just be copied line by line?
They might not encourage the Idea but I don't see how they would care. This new 'copy' would have to pickup the slack in support, bandwith. What business in thier right mind trusts thier business on software patched, updated and written by a guy referred to as "Someone"? Not me! And if your goal is a desktop for home users, who wants a slow stable (boring) OS at home? Not most of us. We want exciting new things consistantly. Everytime redhat had a new release routers were being burned out in some places of the world because of so much traffic (seriously) so that says we are eager for the latest and greates which is why Fedora is created. Its what we asked for.
Agreed.
I think the FUD is because Redhat is/was #1 in linux share and now
that they've forked, alot of zealots from see
an oppertunity to convert ppl to thier reli..err disro.
Take a look at _every_ post that bashes redhat (or any distro for that matter)
and you will see a distro plug right in the middle of it (or all over it).
I used RH for years and never really cared who ran what unless they
expected me to help them often, then and only then would I reccomend redhat.
Otherwise its all about preference!
I really, really wish we could standardize atleast to begin with. Web admins
can't even write a webpage for more then one browser and we expect every
developer to intergrate software for 20 distros, 20 browsers, etc? its insane!
Fragmentation isn't just in the file hierarchy or KDE, Gnome its EVERYTHING.
Open your favorite e-mail client and look at all the browser options for opening links
mozilla -remote 'openURL(%s, new-window)'
netscape -remote 'openURL(%s, new-win)'
netscape '%s'
gnome-moz-remote --newwin '%s'
kterm -e w3m '%s'
kterm -e lynx '%s'
Now my point isn't the sevral apps, that is fine, but everything has
its own format for tabs, new win, switches, etc. This is just like most
things in UNIX & free software. Everyone thinks they know best or maybe
there was just nothing to point to during development and say "Do it like this".
I haven't used KDE in years so I can't speak of thier project but I've seen
what the HIG has done for Gnome. PPL now have something to point to during
development resulting in a professional feel and gets the hell out of my way!
If we standardize on user application formats nobody would care if we used
mozillafirebird, mozilla, epiphany, konq or opera cause they'd all handle
input/output the same exact way and it wouldn't break other applications
compatibility.
oops, this was suppose to be short.
You're right, some ppl are leaving RH but if you were on the fedora lists, alot of PPL are MOVING to fedora. They give credentials, experience what distro's they previously did work for (mostly mandrake/suse) and what they'd like to contribute. so it may even out. reguardless of what anon cowards on slashdot say. Having a quality distro like RH opening up the code to everyone is a pretty big insentive for some people.
I would bet that Novell/Suse arent going to piss off all the developers like Red Hat has done. Sure they will, once the community seems them being the most successfull we will shoot them down just like Redhat. RH has made some mistakes but nothing close to the M$ tag idiots throw at them. We hat thier success and the fact they're an American company. Don't beleive me? Read the 400 posts for this article, its obvious.
Now what company was it yesterday you all called a sellout? I forget. I thought it was Redhat. Now who are you guys going to turn to when Novell turns SuSe into a half closed half open business hybred? They will have lots of locked down protocols going in this new product i'll betcha.
It might be time for all of you to jump back on RH's bandwagon after you realize they're the only ones you cant buy out.
forgive my pessimism, I should give Novell a shot but they appear to be a company evolving to stay alive in the free software movement, but is thier goal a GPL world while making money, or trying to make money in a GPL world? Personally i think redhat is the former, Novell the latter.
I'm glad I'm not the only one
I find it humorous a distro with tons of propriatary software and a fraction of upstream controbutions is suppose to be our protection from this evil (Redhat) monoply.
I too like the competition, Redhat has been enormously generous so far but who's to say they won't have too much power in 10+ years?
what is starting to make me nervous is SuSe tries to be Europe's linux. Linux is suppose to bring us together not divide us. What happens when flamewars stop being, "SuSe sucks" and starts to become "germany sucks" or a political problem instead of a technical one. If we can't trust an Open source company (RH) just because they're the leader, will we _EVER_ win anything? we'll always be toppeling the best technology not from merrit but because #1 is evil.
I could go on for pages about what RH has contributed but it can be summed up easily. All Redhat (or any distro) has is its name, once the company's actions come into question its TOAST. So how could anyone, ever become a monopoly. Redhat has the most users because of its enormous controbutions to OSS. so I find it humorous a distro with tons of propriatary software and a fraction of upstream controbutions is suppose to be our protection from this evil monoply.
$100 per server huh? wouldn't you rather pay $179 and install it on 500 servers? I'm sure smart edu guys can figure out how to make thier own updates server and download updates from thier $179 account.
What I think is going on right now is there are massive changes happening to GNU/linux in general. The market is dictating linux's direction. why is that bad? people are demanding gnome 2.4, 2.6 kernel, etc. but sooner or later 'must upgrade' features will die down.
Let's be honest in the last year its just now hitting main stream and is racing to catch up to It's critizms but because of this rapid development main stream feature goals will be reached fairly quickly. like intergration, compatibility, and quality applications.
With the future in mind alot of projects underwent major overhauls for this reason but they're getting stable, when they do its going to be prime time for products like RH workstation or debian stable since they're nearly the same thng but with longer support cycles. for instance i don't care about not having a perfect file dialog box for gnome so why upgrade? but I DO want yum and kernel 2.6 integrated so when those features are in the RH stable i'm buying it and saying with it till my 1-3 years support is up.
Unfortunately what needs improvement is the GUIs of the programs, not the desktop itself. Even the best desktop is no use if 2/3 of programs have awful GUI or are commandline only
Read the developer and HIG guidelines HERE I think the direction they're going as far as GUI is excellent. look how nice things are now since RH did thier GUI crackdown last year.
1.) Applying the patch
2.) Using *any* software firewall. Even WinXP's own firewall. ZoneAlarm is trash in my opinion.
But it isn't your only protection.
3.) Using a hardware firewall which blocks the RPC port anyway
4.) disable dcom with start -> run -> dcomcnfg
and show, among other interesting facts, that RH has $307m in cash in the bank, which is more than enough to pay for the lawyers to fend off SCO.
I don't agree, RH has more money sure, but SCO has nothing to lose, they are done, they know it. thats why all this started in the first place. RH is suppose to be a company of the future, how do they do that if they spend all thier money on a legal battle? while sco can just keep doing stock pumps and lobbying for cash to big corps?
But we have to remember about the roots - RedHat is becoming a little bit prioprietary, a little bit uncompatible... yes! yes!
No, Why don't you read RH's patent policy first HERE
basically they're defensive patents, I wont say anything more cause you should read it yourself and become englightened.
Some things I'm about to say might be alittle harsh but Slashdot needs to take its medicine.
First does anyone remember when Redhat9 came out, a huge selling point for them was that you could beat the rush and get RH 9 a week early if you signed up for support? An aweful lot of people signed up for that (including myself) . so many infact it ended up killing thier servers speed to something around 5k. But guess what. Slashdot posted bit torrent within the first hour happy to offer non paying customers a better solution. So how many people will be buying support this time around do you think? Not as many I'll bet.
If Slashdot is always talking about morals and doing whats right with everything from patents to software. Why can't they allow a company that has argueably did more or atleast as much for linux then any other single company to earn a buck for just one week? Thats all folks. It's time we start showing as a community that we're not just a bunch of freeloaders, anarchists & hypocrites.
but how secure that kind of device can be?
In my life time I have lost 12 pairs of glasses.2 wallets and 5 remote controls, Losing a web server is going to 0wn
How does one willingly pay $25,250,000, without trial, and not admit to wrong doing? An admittance of guilt is suggested under such circumstances.
Well, not exactly. To most companys 23 million is worth fighting for, but for M$ 20 million is lunch money. If I owned the company I'd rather fork over $100 million then allow other OS's to come pre-installed, everyone knows its already becomming thier only shot at survival. (lockins)